Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian politics

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ALP/DLP split

Do we not have an article on the ALP/DLP split of the 1950s? If we do, can someone please point me to it? Cheers, Mattinbgn\^talk 02:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you know what? I don't think we do. We've got articles on the Democratic Labor Party (historical), Australian Labor Party (Anti-Communist) and Queensland Labor Party, but not one on the split itself. There isn't one on either the 1916/17 (Labor/National Labor/Nationalist) or 1931 (Labor/UAP/Lang Labor) splits either. Frickeg (talk) 03:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Do we need an article devoted to the split(s)? Timeshift (talk) 03:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there should be - that way a history of the event can be given in one place and then people can read the party articles for more information about what happened before/after. Orderinchaos 03:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Back in probably 2005 User:Adam Carr and I discussed creating articles about all the ALP splits but never got around to doing it. It's a bit surprising that they're still blank. The ACOTF seems to be in limbo at the moment but even a basic overview article (like "List of Splits in the ALP") would be a good collaboration. --Roisterer (talk) 04:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I think they'd all be good articles, and there'd be tons of content for them too. I'd also throw in the Premier's Plan splits of the early 1930s, which stuffed some of the state Labor parties terribly badly - in SA, for example, there were about five Labor factions in parliament after it was done. Rebecca (talk) 07:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

My interest was prompted by the death of Laurie Short. Having little interest in ALP internal politics, I knew nothing about the man and pulled together an article based on the scraps in the news stories on his death. Given his role in keeping the ALP branch together, I thought to link to an article about the split (wasn't there a TV mini-series about it in the 1980s?) and was surprised when there was no article. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 08:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you might want to check that Short article - it says that the FIA was a predecessor union to the AWU, but that he was an officer of that union in 1982, when the AWU was created in 1894... Rebecca (talk) 13:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The FIA were a Communist union with a heavy presence in inner Sydney after WWII. Short and Jim McLelland organised a ticket which overthrew the leadership and turned it into a bastion of the Catholic Labor right. After SHort retired the driver behind the FIA was Steve Harrison, brother of Gabrielle. They were a middle-size and very well-organised outfit, until Harrison had a vision of merging with and controlling the massive and somnolent AWU. The merger happened in 1993 and the FIA (now called FIME) played a fairly big role in the NSW branch for about five years. In (maybe) 1998 their preferred candidates badly lost national AWU elections and the separate "ironworkers" presence in the AWU just kind of faded away. The current NSW ALP secretary Matt Thistlewaite was a member/supporter of the previous "ironworker" section as an AWU organiser around ten years ago.

The above is of course original research but easily referenced if I can find the time (or if anyone else wants to do it instead). Euryalus (talk) 02:04, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As a curious, and unrelated point, are there reliable sources on factions to which ALP members belong? I see assertions made by people in the press and blogosphere that are broadly consistent, so I know the info is out there. It would assist greatly with my WA work :) Orderinchaos 08:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

There are reliable sources for the factions themselves of course, but I've never seen anything listing the membership of any particular one at any particular time that would meet WP:RS. The occasional newspaper article listing memberships tend to be wrong - for excample there was a recent SMH article that put Barry Collier in both the Hard Left and the DellaBosca Right. Its pretty easy to reconstruct the faction membership for Federal Labor MPs going back to Calwell's time, but not much else that I've seen. Euryalus (talk) 08:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I was trying to do it for these MPs. Unfortunately my sources are generally not that reliable, I'm for the most part relying on what William Bowe over at Poll Bludger's already managed to uncover. Orderinchaos 08:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Antony Green's NSW Election Results website

Hi everyone.

Not being a regular visitor here, I don't know if anyone is aware Antony Green's NSW Election Result website, http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/resources/nswelectionsanalysis/homepage.htm It's hosted by NSW Parliament House and covers every election from 1856 to 2007. Have fun!

Blarneytherinosaur ^gabby? 06:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's a great resource. I've been using it for my (very very irregular) lists of MLAs, like Members of the New South Wales Legislative Assembly, 1856–1858. Frickeg (talk) 00:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Extended content

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. According to an admin, Antony Green is not a WP:RS. Timeshift (talk) 01:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC) What? Where? Frickeg (talk) 02:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Talk:Queensland state election, 2009. Timeshift (talk) 02:57, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Oh. Actually I think that Orderinchaos is right there, because there are other places where it's done differently. But I think that the election site, being on the NSW Parliament website, would be counted as an RS. Frickeg (talk) 03:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC) He did however make the seperate point that Antony is not a WP:RS. I would think the site it is hosted on is irrelevant... ABC is a WP:RS on it's own but not when it's done by Antony. Timeshift (talk) 03:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Yes, but I think the question being asked over there is a style issue rather than a black-and-white "this is the only way to do it" issue. I'm sure you agree, for example, that where they differ, AEC trumps Antony. But for NSW results pre-2003, just as with federal pre-1996, Antony's (or Psephos, federally) all we've got. It's pretty easy to check for my lists with the NSW Parliament site anyway. Frickeg (talk) 03:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC) A pretty black and white statement was made that Antony is not a WP:RS. Timeshift (talk) 03:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC) I was saying that the Greens issue was not black-and-white. Frickeg (talk) 03:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Antony himself is not a RS. Just as any expert, stating their opinion, is not an RS. When he makes a site such as the NSW Parliament one which is extensively reviewed, checked, etc, against reliable sources and most probably by officers and clerical staff of the Parliament, and likewise states its own sources so it can be reviewed (this is why academic publications require bibliographies and footnotes) then there's no question about sourcing - it's an independent reliable source that has been through peer review. Same as if he were to contribute a chapter to a book about elections in Australia, or write a researched report for the WA Parliament (which I now have a copy of and intend to use for some stuff). Those would be RSs. But the ABC Elections site falls into a category which is basically a self-published source, and one admitted by that source to be subject to pressures, constraints etc which reduce its reliability. Orderinchaos 04:32, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Election results are not an opinion. Since when is ABC elections not a WP:RS compared to his other publications? Seems a bit of WP:OR to me. Timeshift (talk) 05:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC) They're not peer reviewed. Read WP:RS again. Orderinchaos 05:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC) All research and design has been carried out by election analyst Antony Green. Initial funding was provided by the Sesquicentenary of Responsible Government in New South Wales Trust as part of the Electoral Atlas of New South Wales project. Please e-mail Antony Green with any comments on how the site operates. Given the volume of information contained in this site, and the difficulty in finding election results, there are minor errors and also a small number of incomplete results. Who says this is? And WP:RS does not say something needs to be peer-reviewed to be a WP:RS. Timeshift (talk) 05:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC) I am opting out of this particular argument, because I actually do have better things to do, and I'm pretty convinced you are just arguing for the sake of it. Even Antony Green himself does not maintain the ABC Elections is a reliable source in the sense we mean - it's an information resource for the benefit of the general public and has some predictive capacity at a point when little information is available in the initial stages of counting - so you're actually trying to argue something he isn't. Seriously, get into some content development sometime, instead of bickering over minor points and starting random spot fires in an attempt to prove other ones. Much better use of your time, and mine. Orderinchaos 06:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Antony says the Greens lost a seat. I'm attempting to show his site is WP:RS. Upon revealing contradictions in your debating points, not once do you ever admit you are wrong, rather you are prepared to attack and drop WP:AGF as displayed above. I'm surprised at the low blow of lack of content development. I've created hundreds of pages, all the SA state and federal elections, some state and federal by-elections, and some MPs. I've uploaded hundreds of free images of politicians, expanded party leader pages, and contribute to many other pages. But that's not the point. Whenever I reveal contradictions you call bad faith. I can't stop you from not WP:AGF. Timeshift (talk) 06:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC) You have not shown his site is WP:RS, so give up on the POV campaign already - the facts are that the Greens only held a seat due to the predilections of a particular MP who failed to carry his electorate with him when given the chance. This happens often enough in Australian politics - politicians joining minor parties or going independent is not a reason for us to start rewriting the book. As Frickeg pointed out earlier, Green's take on this particular issue is at odds with his own take on identical issues in this election and in the last federal election. And in response to your last point, while you have indeed created a good body of work with relation to SA and federal politics, how much of that shows in your recent contributions? Orderinchaos 06:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC) You said a WP:RS needs to be peer-reviewed. I said WP:RS does not state something needs to be peer-reviewed in order to be a WP:RS. It appears neither the ABC elections site nor the NSW parliament elections site are peer-reviewed. But yet one is not a WP:RS? If it's not a WP:RS then why is his elections coverage used all over wikipedia for sourcing? Even the QLD election article uses his site as a reference, one for the results, another for seats changing hands. It seems Antony Green's ABC elections site is ONLY not a WP:RS on this particular issue alone. Seems a bit strange. I also note that by the criteria you have given, the LNP did not hold any seats at the previous election, so why shouldn't that be adjusted too? In response to your last point, why did you bring up content creation at all? It has nothing to do with this debate, it is a very low blow. I feel a bit stuck with other pages left to create. There's the rest of the by-elections but not much else, unless I start to get in to really obscure abstract areas which don't interest me as much. But why does any of that matter, why should I justify myself on this, why are you raising this when it bears no relation to this debate? Timeshift (talk) 06:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC) "If it's not a WP:RS then why is his elections coverage used all over wikipedia for sourcing?" That's a very good question, and one we should probably address in due course. However it's not a very good argument. If you're arguing for finding better sources, I'll happily support that. But you're basically saying here "Other random Wikipedians did this, so we should too" - they're even less reliable, so it seems you're digging yourself into a hole here. As for the contributions, one can make substantive contributions to areas which already exist. I actually do understand what you're saying there, but then it makes less sense as to why you'd start arguments on otherwise harmonious pages about things that don't matter. Orderinchaos 07:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC) I'm not using WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS because I still think Antony Green is a WP:RS. You say his non peer-reviewed source at NSW parliament is WP:RS, but his non peer-reviewed ABC election pages aren't. You've used ABC elections as a source on wikipedia yourself, why would you do this if it wasn't a WP:RS? "why you'd start arguments on otherwise harmonious pages about things that don't matter" doesn't make sense. Wikipedia is improved by editors coming together on talk pages. According to Antony, the Greens lost a seat at the election. Timeshift (talk) 07:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Point to one place where I've used it as a source and not simply an external link (for which the threshold is lower as we're explicitly saying it's someone else). Orderinchaos 07:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC) I don't care to scour your many many contributions to find one, but are you honestly saying that up until now you have not considered the ABC election site, designed/written by Antony Green, to be a WP:RS? No doubt you've come across it used on wikipedia as a source many times before, everyone who edits oz politics pages has, admins included. If it were not a WP:RS it would have been pointed out by now. I do not believe you consider it not to be a WP:RS. You seem to be pretty quick when it comes to removing other non RS. Timeshift (talk) 07:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Admins are not authorities - and I've often strenuously insisted when I've been quoted that I, likewise, am not an authority. We keep behaviour on track, we are not here to regulate content or make content decisions. As for "everyone" - no, they haven't. Ever since I saw an email from Antony Green in approximately March of last year, where he stated plainly his views about his stuff being used on Wiki (i.e. that we should pay regard to his own circumstances in producing it and question whether we can find better sources ourselves), I have veered away from using his site as a *source* - and helped to get rid of dozens of pages which depended solely on it on Wiki in August-September last year. It's certainly not a new view. The ABC page is useful for what it is - providing information to a generally clueless public. If you know nothing and you read that, you'll know a fair bit. If you're looking for the best Wikipedia can do, we should be going out finding our own sources and not relying on a hastily-assembled, although expert-informed, web job. I've been doing that for WA for over a year now. Ironically the end result is I've become something of an "expert" on that domain myself, but that's neither here nor there - then again, I'm not quoting myself, so it matters little. Orderinchaos 08:05, 27 March 2009 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

When is an MP an independent?

Peter King, Gavan O'Connor, Stuart Copeland. Three recent MPs who, having been denied preselection by their parties stood as independents for their seats.

I point this out because the way we treat them is at the moment inconsistent. The following three pages make mention of their break with their party:

• Division of Wentworth
• Division of Corio
• Electoral district of Cunningham

The following three do not:

• Members of the Australian House of Representatives, 2001–2004
• Members of the Australian House of Representatives, 2004–2007
• Members of the Queensland Legislative Assembly, 2006–2009

Personally, I think the latter three have it right. The fact that these guys waited until after the dissolution of parliament to declare their independence means they were never independent members merely independent candidates. However, what we need is a reliable source. I'm not too sure what that is, given some of the parliamentary sites aren't that great in recording changing party affiliation.

--Digestible (talk) 13:07, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. The contrast is say the bizarre situation in WA in 2008, or Franklin federally in 2007, where they clearly did sit as independents. The confusing thing would be what they would be if constituents approached them with queries in that, say, five or six week period. Orderinchaos 13:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I think we've historically tended to go with the former of the two options across the board: certainly, a lot of the state pages have marked them as independents, and I suspect the latter three might be because no one bothered to do it. I think Digestible's idea is a good one; it's a bit similar to the issues we sometimes get with resignation dates, where if we don't actually make sure we're using the date they formally resigned it can become a bit of a dog's breakfast.

Orderinchaos, I suspect it doesn't matter; the crucial thing is that they were a member of parliament in that period; their partisan status isn't really relevant to their interim duties if parliament isn't actually sitting or is going to sit again before the election. Rebecca (talk) 15:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I fear I may have to take some of the responsibility for this mixup, as the first three examples were all initiated by me. I tend to think the first option is the better one, because otherwise people go, "Hang on, he's a Liberal, but it says in this results table that he was an independent - what's going on?" However, this is only my opinion, and Digestible is quite right to say that we need a source. The logical place, to me, is the Parliamentary Handbook, where King and O'Connor are both listed as becoming Independents in the list of MPs. Unless there's another source, this would seem to me to decide in favour of the first option (marking them as independents). Frickeg (talk) 00:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Hm, you do have a point: I notice the NSW parliament does the same for Bryce Gaudry (one of the most recent examples of this at state level IIRC). Rebecca (talk) 05:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, Copeland's page on the Queensland Parliament website doesn't mention that he sat as an independent. It also doesn't mention that he's no longer a member, so take it with a grain of salt. I think the idea here that if a member leaves the party before the election and sits at a parliamentary sitting as such we mention them as Ind, otherwise they're considered to only be Ind candidates and not members, is a good one. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:55, 5 April 2009 (UTC).

Political parties

Would be good to get a few more eyes on List of political parties in Australia, since I know a few fair more people read this page.

The list had a fairly sizable section labelled "Not registered with the AEC" containing a few parties that are registered at state level only, a few that appear to be defunct or on hiatus, and a few that it's questionable if they even existed in any notable form in the first place. I've broken out the first of these into its own section, since there's bucketloads of sources for these; there's still the question of what we do with the rest of them. It'd be also good to give some of these articles a bit of a cleanup/referencing, since a lot of these small parties' articles are a bit of a mess to begin with. Rebecca (talk) 10:16, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

CEC MPs

Responses re CEC MPs would be appreciated at Talk:Citizens Electoral Council#CEC MPs?. Thanks. Timeshift (talk) 09:53, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Lawrence Springborg Infobox

Can anyone figure out why Springborg's first term as Opposition Leader isn't showing? The fields term_start3, term_end3, predecessor3 and successor3 aren't displaying here. Yet they work fine in other places, e.g. Alfred Deakin, Andrew Fisher. Digestible (talk) 13:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Was some extra duplicate fields that were setting the thing back to null. Orderinchaos 15:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah well spotted. Digestible (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Daylight Savings Referendum

I'm currently working on the Fremantle state by-election, 2009 article. I was hoping to link it to the state referendum (to be held on the same day), but I can't find it. Does such an article even exist? Digestible (talk) 15:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Not that I know of - would be good to get one. That reminds me - I still need to enrol for the damned thing. Rebecca (talk) 15:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

We don't even have one for the 1992 one yet and we actually have a full set of results for that :) Orderinchaos 18:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Independent to Independent

This continues a recent talk page discussion about how to treat an election that sees a new independent win the seat from another (usually outgoing) independent. Is such a victory a "gain" or a "hold"? Personally I'm not fussed, I'd just like for there to be an agreed standard. I've just created this page: Maryborough state by-election, 2003. See also Dubbo state by-election, 2004 and Port Macquarie state by-election, 2008. Digestible (talk) 21:42, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll just re-state my position that it should be a "hold", because (a) the seat remains in independent hands, and (b) "Independent gain from Independent" is rather confusing, especially for someone unfamiliar with electoral politics. This is especially the case for instances such as Port Macquarie, where Besseling had specific support from Oakeshott (on Antony Green's page, the decreased independent vote is even given as a swing against Besseling). Frickeg (talk) 21:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

(a) What if the new independent defeated the sitting independent? (b) Awkward text I agree. But "independent hold" is potentially misleading. Finally, I wouldn't read too much into that last point about the swing; that's done more for the purposes of booth-by-booth comparison, which is how the ABC calls results. Digestible (talk) 22:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Good point about (a). Has this ever actually happened, though? Ideally, of course, it would have the Independent's name in the hold box ("Peter Besseling gain from Rob Oakeshott"), but that would play havoc with the template. Frickeg (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

That sort of thing happened a lot historically. When we get to byelections in the 1930s and 1940s, things will be a lot of fun :) Orderinchaos 04:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Shudder. We're a long way off the chaos of back then, thank goodness! (Anyone who fully understands the various comings and goings between all the Victorian branches of the Country Party, and whether they warrant noting in the articles, please step forward!) Frickeg (talk) 04:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Rebecca was working a while back on the 1930-1933 Labor Party in South Australia. We lost count of how many bits it splintered into and who was associated with each bit by the time of the 1933 election. (I had the fun of figuring out the 1917 Labor and 1923 Country Party splits in WA but at least they were in a strange way fairly systematic and not difficult to research, even if the main sources didn't have things entirely right) Orderinchaos 05:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Template:Australian politics/party colours/Liberal National and others

I've just reverted some good faith changes to this template, but given that the LNP has now been around for awhile, I feel that the templates for the LNP need some discussion.

Firstly, some background: the Liberal National Party was formed from a merger of the Liberal Party and National Party in Queensland. Given the strength of the National Party in Queensland relative to the Liberal Party, certain elements of the press characterised the merger as a takeover of the QLD Liberal Party by the Nats. The party itself has been relatively disciplined about this issue, after the predictably sulky "I'm taking my ball and going home" reactions of a few former Liberals. Even though the LNP comprehensively lost the recent Queensland state election, it looks like the party itself is here to stay for the forseeable future.

When the party was initially formed, I created Template:Australian politics/party colours/Liberal Nationals, and other editors created related templates like [[Template:Australian politics/party colours/Liberal National. As the party did not yet have a representative "colour", I calculated the mathematical midpoint between our colours for the Liberals and the Nationals, and used that. The result was a unsatisfactorily dark and "murky", so User:Orderinchaos brightened it slightly, which produced a teal/aqua colour that was clearly descended from the two "parent" parties, yet dissimilar enough from both to avoid confusion. This lasted until last week, when an editor went and changed these templates to standard Liberal blue, with an edit summary of "LNP Colour is Blue not Aqua ~~~~". I have reverted these changes, as the templates are used on a fair number of pages, but I concede that it's probably time we had a look at what colour we should use in the longer term.

Arguments in favour of changing the colour

• Antony Green used Liberal Blue during the television coverage of the 2009 Queensland State Election.
• The party is registered federally as a branch of the Liberal Party.
• Anecdotally, the party is dominated by former National Party members, thus National green should be considered for use.
• The party logo does not feature this colour (the logo is blue and yellow), and the party itself does not use it.

Arguments against changing the party colour

• The party is also affiliated federally with the National Party, and thus using Liberal blue or National green shows a POV towards one faction of the party in preference to the other.
• The use of a colour that is obviously dissimilar to both previous parties emphasises for our readers that the LNP is a new entity, and not merely a continuation of one of the old entities. Recycling a colour could cause confusion for our readers and give the impression that the Liberal Party just changed its name.
• We have used different colours than the parties themselves in the past - for instance on Template:Australian politics/party colours/Democrats which is a lot brighter than the colour the party uses on its website, and Template:Australian politics/party colours/DLP, which is not the same as the sky blue or Labor red that the party use on their website and promotional material.
• To be honest, I rather like the shade of teal that we came up with =)

I support maintaining the status quo, but I'm willing to make the switch if the consensus is that we should use another colour. Discussion is welcome in case I've missed any obvious for or against arguments. A related discussion we should have is rationalising the templates, because at present we have ones for "Liberal Nationals", "Liberal National" and "LNP", all of which appear to serve the same purpose. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 05:18, 4 April 2009 (UTC).

Keep the teal colour (or whatever it is) rather than the lighter shade of blue, as it's a combo of both parties colours. Practically speaking, the Liberals merged in to the Nationals, not the other way around. Timeshift (talk) 06:16, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion other than, at least for the moment, it should be differentiated from both Liberal and National. Reasonably happy with the status quo, though. As for the rationalisation, I'll get onto that :) Orderinchaos 07:39, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

As there was only 4 transclusions of the singular and the abbrev, I changed them all to plural. I actually think either of the other two names is better, but at least they're all one now and if we agree to change them, a single AWB job can clear them up. Orderinchaos 07:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I thought the change was a good one, because (a) the party itself uses blue (b) its a very different colour to the Liberal blue (royal not navy) and (c) the aqua is similar to the DLP colour. see e.g. Electoral district of Bundaberg. Digestible (talk) 11:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the teal/aqua colour was fine; it clearly showed the mix between Liberal and National in the new LNP. We can't always use the exact colours that the parties use, because a lot of them use the same colours. For example, the Liberals and all their predecessors (UAP, Nationalist, Comm Lib, Protectionist) all have different shades of blue. Frickeg (talk) 22:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I think basically then the consensus is that we're happy with what we've got and there's no good reason to change it. Orderinchaos 06:25, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

OE here. The teal colour may have been a good idea while the LNP set up and went about merging but is outmoded now and is not representative of the new party's branding or livery. The LNP style guide states the party's official colour is a variant of Royal Blue R 0 G 80 B 143 (Pantone PMS 294C). I am not suggesting Wikipedia is beholden to a style guide, but it should follow a common-sense approach to best representing the party. Changing the colour to a Royal Blue differentiates the LNP from all the other state Liberal divisions (Navy Blue) while still keeping in line with the style guide and the traditional blue colouring of conservative parties. They have not used teal in any of their publications or livery, neither have the media, political analysts or the blogosphere. We should stick with the public consensus on this one and change the colour. It's a nice teal, though. :) Murphmeister (talk) 06:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Victor Dominello

Does someone with more time and NSW knowledge want to have a look at this article? It seems to be largely primary sourced and trivial in writing style. Orderinchaos 10:27, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Gordon Moyes

Do we now consider him an independent? (He's been expelled from the CDP after attacking Fred Nile.) Frickeg (talk) 01:55, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I just had a bit of a dig through his website and there doesn't seem to be any mention of the CDP anymore. I think we'd be on fairly safe ground to classify him as Independent now. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC).

Yeah, if he's expelled he's going to be sitting as an independent. I'm hardly surprised - Moyes was sounding more like a Green in his attacks on Nile last year. Rebecca (talk) 03:56, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Basically the two represent the two opposing sides (liberal vs conservative) within the mainstream church, so it's unsurprising really that in the end they couldn't get along. Orderinchaos 06:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)