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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wongm (talk | contribs) at 12:01, 13 April 2009 (Todo section in article: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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nrhp infobox

I don't expect that adding a standard NRHP infobox based on the National Register Information System database to the article would help, as there is a big infobox already developed. Here it is, though, in case there is any info from NRIS in it that could be used in the article, perhaps. doncram (talk) 23:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Canton Viaduct
LocationNeponset and Walpole Sts., Canton, Massachusetts
Built1834
ArchitectMcNeill,William Gibbs; Dodd & Baldwin
NRHP reference No.84002870[1]
Added to NRHPSeptember 20, 1984
Lots of the existing infobox needs to get merged into the article proper IMO. Infobox is supposed to be quick-summary and key data, not verbose prose with lots of additional detail about each value field. DMacks (talk) 00:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In general I would agree, but i think the big infobox is fine in this article. I think this article is getting excessive scrutiny from other editors, given that it is a new article by a new wikipedia editor, and it is not being nominated for a wikipedia Featured Article! If the new editor would like comments, they can be requested by use of the wp:PR peer review process. The article is already extremely way better than just having an unimproved stub NRHP article, like for most NRHP sites in all of List of RHPs in MA or in the local area to this one.  :) doncram (talk) 18:34, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly! This was meant as a "things to work on by somebody sometime to make it even better", not "WE MUST FIX THIS NOW!!!!!". This article fits some of my interests but not my expertise, so I'm glad it's being written and am happy to help clean it up further. DMacks (talk) 18:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, this is Ed Costanza, aka Canton Viaduct and webmaster of www.cantonviaduct.us. As you can tell, I am new to Wiki and I am trying to learn as I go so please bear with me. I have been studying this bridge for years and noticed how poorly it was represented here so I decided to improve the existing information. I thank you all for the constructive criticism but please refrain from sarcastic remarks as I have devoted much time to this project and don't pretend to be nearly as well versed on Wiki as you. Thanks, Ed (edcostanza@yahoo.com)
We really do appreciate your contributions and continued work here and this structure is quite interesting! One of the things many of us do is annotate our changes with an Edit summary explaining the reason for a change or the goal of a layout-adjustment and/or giving pointers to the content or style guidelines for articles. Unfortunately, the field has a limited length:( Let us know which acronyms aren't familiar and we can dig up links to the pages explaining them. There are also some predefined notes you may see that are standard flags for "work needed here but I don't have time to deal further with it now". Wikipedia is collaborative and articles take time to develop, so please don't feel that these are criticism of what is done, but rather as ways to improve the further or make it more closely follow existing standards. DMacks (talk) 06:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Page structure

This article lacks the benefits of an introductory section as described in WP:Lead. Page structure should generally follow WP:Layout. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:18, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another fine observation, which would be more relevant if the new editor writing it indicated he/she would like to receive comments. Again, I am not sure why this article is getting so much scrutiny. doncram (talk) 18:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comrade Doncram, kindly assume good faith, or you will make it seem as if no good deed truly does go unpunished. Why discourage collaborative support (some of which you yourself have brought to bear)? Hertz1888 (talk) 02:55, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well i do assume good faith in your and others' efforts here, but I eventually became uncomfortable about how Canton V. might be perceiving all this, given lack of comment by Canton here on the Talk page. I guess the interactions via successive edits to the article are going okay, though, given no explicit complaints posted publicly here or elsewhere by Canton. doncram (talk) 19:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, I believe that six of the eight images currently in the gallery, of arches elsewhere, belong in another article, perhaps on architectural arches, that can be linked to, if not already linked. My opinion on this is not the last word, of course, but the inclusion here can be seen as tangential and distracting for the reader focusing on the Canton Viaduct as such. Hertz1888 (talk) 21:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the topic of galleries and making the article hard to follow, it's easier to read and flows better (in my opinion) if major article content is in the article itself rather that being placed in a narrow caption region. In general, images should support the content, not be the document structure or primary focus. For example, if one wants to read about the construction, one would probably look for a section with a name like "Construction" and there find writing and images about it (is why I moved the image there, and why I have previously noted and worked to reduce the verbage in the infobox). Previously (and now creeping again) there is becoming a catch-all gallery of all sorts of images, and the actual article content becomes an afterthought on them. Based on CV's comments embedded in the page, I think he (she?) is trying to treat this as a firstly as visual publication, a direction with which I disagree. Good to avoid layout messes, but really good to get organized factual content. Fortunately, we have lots of space, and so can organize and write about each topic. We also have lots of other pages on related topics, so if there is a lot to be said about kinds of viaducts and comparing different support systems, well that's not specific to this viaduct, so it could be off-loaded onto the viaduct page. Lots of detail about "not what this page is about" makes it harder for a reader to find that info at all. This is indeed a fairly unique viaduct design, so talking about this design here makes a lot of sense, and I'm glad someone wrote about it! Talking about a different type of design on a different viaduct in a different that just happens to be from the same era that already has a whole page to talk about it? Off-topic. DMacks (talk) 01:23, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image sources

Many of the images do not state their source (they state that they are Public Domain, but not specifically where they came from). Please do not ignore or simply remove the the tagging of those articles as needing sources--they really will be deleted if they are marked as needing sources and the actual source isn't provided promptly. For example, rather than just annotating a picture as being a being public-domain work of the United States Federal Government, mention the URL of the web-page from where this actual file was taken, some bibliographic information about a hard-copy that you scanned, or something like that. If an image is from your own personal collection, you are obviously free to release it as Public Domain, but please also annotate the image with an "I took this picture" statement so that others can know that you didn't just "borrow" a file from somewhere and republish it. It's sad-but-true is that some editors will "borrow" non-free material and simply upload it with a "this is free" claim, so we need some traceability to be able to verify those claims. Thanks! DMacks (talk) 07:27, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously. They will be deleted in the next week or so unless you provide this required information: specific source where you got each file one you claim is USGovt or specific biblio for each USGovt hard-copy image you scanned. DMacks (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This photo is from the US Library of Congress's American Memory Collection, HABS/HAER: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/displayPhoto.pl?path=/pnp/habshaer/ma/ma1200/ma1240/photos&topImages=076612pr.jpg&topLinks=076612pv.jpg,076612pu.tif&title=9.%20%20Boston%20%26%20Providence%20Railroad%3a%20Canton%20Viaduct.%20Canton,%20Norfolk%20Co.,%20MA.%20(Not%20on%20NEC).%20(See%20HAER%20No.%20MA-27%20for%20further%20documentation%20on%20this%20site).%20%3cbr%3eHAER%20MASS,13-BOST,83-9&displayProfile=0

This photo is legit so to be more specific Don - Why are you attacking me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canton Viaduct (talkcontribs)

Don vs. Dmacks Does Dmacks go by the name Don? I wonder if Doncram, me, is being confused with Dmacks, who is not me. I prefer to be referred to as Doncram, presume that Dmacks prefers Dmacks. doncram (talk) 22:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good point! I've definitely never been known as "Don" around here. DMacks (talk) 04:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My bad Canton Viaduct (talk) 23:14, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We're not attacking you. I'm trying to draw your attention to a critical part of Wikipedia editorial policy, given that you seemed not to realize the urgency and/or meaning of the bot actions and comments or how to solve the problems they were noting. Here's a first-pass list of files you have uploaded that need PD-USGov source info:
based on eyeballing the of all files you've uploaded. Please let us know the best way to alert you to these urgent and mandatory needs so that they can be handled appropriately in the future. DMacks (talk) 19:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see a possible problem-cause here...the file-upload form makes you pick a copyright but not add other details about it, whereas per WP:COPYRIGHT and WP:V policies, merely stating the copyright is necessary but not sufficient in most cases. {{Information}} is a good template to place on each file's page to contain the necessary additional details. DMacks (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don - If this was such a critical part of Wikipedia's editorial policy then the fields would be required and since they are not it seems less a Wiki policy and more a DMacks policy.

WP:COPYRIGHT is policy, and it points to Wikipedia:Image copyright tags that tells you to include the source. The upload form clearly tells you to include the info, even if it doesn't reject the upload outright if you don't. WP can't force you to follow every rule every time you do everything...that's why we have lots of editors and bots who can fix things and/or tell you what needs to be fixed and why. Yes, it takes time to learn how things work and discover policies and guidelines you didn't even know existed, and to find missing info once you know what's missing. That's why the bots give a week grace period before any deletion would happen--so you can have a chance to resolve the problem. We really are trying to help here, experienced editors and bots alike telling you what's wrong, how to fix it, and where to learn more about the situation. DMacks (talk) 21:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Canton, it's most definitely not a "DMacks policy". I'm glad that the form allows you to go back and fix stuff later. If you couldn't make a WP edit that wasn't perfectly compliant with all policies, no edits would ever get made. The software does not, and should not, enforce policy. It's the editors' job to be familiar with it, and to point it out to new people when they miss details. I've been editing WP for 5 years, and I still miss stuff.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List in infobox

Yup, looks like a bug that one can't have just a bulleted list in an infobox field because the first item's asterisk is treated as a real asterisk character instead of as a bullet. So for now we're stuck with <br>, which gives unusual whitespace if there's no other leading text. Affects many infobox types. Will see if infobox experts have a general solution. DMacks (talk) 19:18, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting help needed

Could someone please center the text in the cornerstone captions. Also, if I could put these images in a table (not a Gallery) I wouldn't need to use all the <br>'s. I use them so the the succeeding sections don't get merged with the text associated with the picture (not the caption but the text next to it) THANKS!! Canton Viaduct (talk) 23:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Todo section in article

This was in comment tags in the article, have moved it here Wongm (talk) 12:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Protection

Highway barriers, bridge guards - http://www.jim-shead.com/waterways/P09116.jpg

Trivia

Who was the first passenger to cross the Canton Viaduct by rail?
Charlie, the old white horse who hauled the flat car between the Viaduct and Moyles quarry (Canton Viaduct Quarry).  During the last few days prior to completion Charlie was placed on the flat car and hauled across by the workers with great ceremony and laughter.

How long was the haul route from Moyles quarry?

How long was the haul route from Dunbar’s quarry?

How many [[voussoir]]s are in the Canton Viaduct?
20 in each deck arch
12 in each river arch
22 in the roadway arch
30 in the deck arch above the granite roadway arch

George Washington Whistler married William Gibbs McNeill's sister Anna who appears in which beloved American portrait?
[[Whistler's Mother]]

What was the name of the first Boston & Providence Railroad locomotive?
Whistler

Who named the first Boston & Providence Railroad Locomotive?
William Gibbs McNeill, after his brother-in-law, George Washington Whistler.

How many arches are there in the Canton Viaduct?
92 total: 
1 segmental concrete roadway arch
1 semi-circular granite roadway arch
6 semi-circular granite river arches
42 segmental granite deck arches
42 segmental concrete deck arches (supporting the granite deck arches)

How many piers support the deck?
22, 7 in water and 15 on land

How many hollow chambers are there in the Canton Viaduct?
23 total:
1 in the foundation stone
22 between the piers

What is carved on the large boulder in Canton Viaduct Park?
A mermaid] on top and on the side the dates 1883-1954 (71 years) with an illegible name carved above the dates indicating it might be a tombstone. 

How many Lego pieces were used to build the Canton Viaduct model?

Continued research

CONSTRUCTION -
What devices were used to lift the stones into place? Steam crane, windlass, granite carts, pulleys, horses, etc.
The Viaduct is assumed to have been built starting at the north end, east side - where the foundation stone should have been laid according to Masonic tradition.
Where are the original Viaduct construction plans?
Where are the complete construction specifications?
Where is the entire construction contract with Dodd & Baldwin?
What role did the Dodd & Baldwin company play in the construction of the Viaduct?  Architect, Engineer, Designer or Builder?
Why are the end piers half the thickness of the other piers? 

CORNERSTONE -
Was there a cornerstone ceremony when it was originally laid?
Are there any mason's marks on the cornerstone – on any surface?
Why does the cornerstone say “B & P RR “Co.” instead of “Corp.”?

When exactly was the cornerstone set in the western end of the parapet?
Which side of the cornerstone faced the tracks when it was originally laid?
Is there a chamber in the cornerstone containing a time capsule - in between the stones or under the bottom stone?
If the cornerstone contained a time capsule it may have been exposed when the stone was tossed off the Viaduct and broke or during its other relocations.  If a time capsule existed and it was exposed, it may have been looted.
Was the cornerstone built with the iron straps currently holding it together or were they added during an attempt to repair the stone.
If the iron straps were added during a repair when did that repair occur?
Are their any markings on the iron straps?

When exactly was the cornerstone set at the north end, west side?  A photo from 1926 does not show it there, the Canton Journal reported in 1933 it was located there so it must have been relocated sometime between 1926 and 1933.
Why was it set there and not the original south end, west side location?
Why did the stone face the tracks (east) and not west – because that was the direction it originally faced?
Was it placed there during some renovation project?  If so, what renovation occurred at that time?
On page 56 of A History Of Canton Junction, when was the picture at the bottom of the page taken?

FOUNDATION STONE -
Where is the exact location of actual foundation stone? It should be in the northeast corner according to Masonic tradition.
Is there a chamber in the foundation stone containing a time capsule?
Was there a foundation stone ceremony?  There should have been according to Masonic tradition.

HERITAGE -
Where did the story of the Viaducts two identical bridges on the Moscow/St. Petersburg railroad originate?
If this story is true, where are these bridges on the Russian railroad?
Why isn’t the Viaduct listed as a National Historic Landmark like the Thomas Viaduct?
Besides WWI and WWII was the Viaduct guarded during any other conflicts?  Civil War, 911, etc.
Challenge ASCE's "multiple arch" classification to more accurately represent the Viaduct's primary support system - parallel walls and re-classify as the only Double Blind Arcade Viaduct in the US.  When you look at the Viaduct do you think walls or arches?
How can CD/DVD copies of “Viaduct”, “Inside the Viaduct” and the “Viaduct Dedication” be obtained as well as film clips for website publication?

INTERIOR -
What was the purpose of the large, loose stones placed on the tie stones?  Presumably to elevate work planks.
Were the internal wooden platforms shown in “Inside The Viaduct” used for work (1835) or inspection (1912)?
There are stalactites under the deck so are their stalagmites at the bottoms of the chambers?
Were any artifacts recovered from the chambers during any inspections?
Was the interior of the concrete roadway arch chamber inspected during the 1953 renovation?
Is the interior floor of the chambers level with the ground outside or is it lower – starting at the top of the foundation?

MISC -
When was the Neponset St. named changed from "Ye Road from Ye Schoolhouse on Taunton Road to Ye Old Forge"?
When was the Canton Viaduct officially named, for years it was known only as "the stone bridge" and the cornerstone is inscribed with "this Viaduct".
Create a list of improvements for proposal.
Can a webcam be placed in the office building's cupola adjacent to the Viaduct, Kessler Machine Works, the River Village bell tower and/or Paul Revere Commons?
What are the Paul Revere Commons developers proposing to promote the Viaduct - access, scenic overlooks, and/or way markers describing the Viaduct's history?
Why do Boston & Providence Railroad stock certificates from 1835 depict the Viaduct with a fence rather than solid parapets?
Death toll - How many people have died working on or crossing the Viaduct?
What is the name of the "baskets" built onto the iron fence where workers could seek refuge from passing trains?
Did Scottish Freemason's (who built the Canton Viaduct) and are buried in Canton cemeteries have their Mason's Marks inscribed on their tombstones?
Did Canton have a newspaper in 1834?
The parapet was 3’-8” high and presumed to be 18” wide due to that being the thickness of the cornerstone.
How deep is the Canton River under the Viaduct?

OPENING DATE -
When exactly was the Viaduct officially completed?  See Wiki article on the Canton Viaduct for details.
When exactly was the Viaduct officially opened?  See Wiki article on the Canton Viaduct for details.
Was there a ribbon cutting ceremony?
When exactly was Charlie hauled across the Viaduct? (AHOCJ says, "during the last few days prior to completion")

PARK -
What is the persons name on the Viaduct boulder above the dates 1883 - 1954 (71 years); this would lead one to believe the boulder is a gravestone.  If so, does a body lie below?  If so, was that person killed on the Viaduct?  If so, how were they killed?
When was the Viaduct boulder placed there?  The earliest boulder photo I could find it there was1968.
Who carved the mermaid in the Viaduct boulder?
What is the mermaid carving significance?

RENOVATIONS -
Where are the construction photos from the concrete roadway arch renovation in 1953?
If the cornerstone was tossed off during the 1860 double tracking, were other parapet stones tossed into the Canton River?
Did divers encounter these stones during their underwater inspections in preparation of the electrification project?
Where is the discarded stone from the parapet removal?
When was the first interior inspection?
List all known inspections, their locations and inspectors.
What was the nature of the 1906 repair?
When were electrical lines strung under the original roadway arch?  A photo from 1890 doesn’t show the wires but first appear in a 1906 photo so it must have occurred between those years.
What was the nature of the river arch repair?
Was the arch that gave way in 1909 a deck arch, roadway arch or river arch?
Who design and built the concrete roadway arch?
Why is the concrete roadway arch so much shorter than the granite roadway arch?  Perhaps to match the segmental arch above?
Why is the concrete roadway arch made of concrete instead of matching granite?
Why was the concrete roadway arch not renovated as shown in the 1941 and 1993 renovation plans?
Why were pedestrian walkways never added next to the roadway arches as shown in the 1941 renovation plan?
Where is the discarded stone from the 1953 roadway arch addition?
Where is the discarded stone from the 1993 deck renovation?
Was the cause of the segmental arch stone failures due to increasing loads or deterioration from weathering?
Where are the construction progress photos/videos from the 1993 renovation?
Where are the photos of the series of walls (7’ on center) perpendicular to the tracks at the abutments?
How many walls were there?
What were their dimensions?
Were they tied to the wing walls?
Were they part of the original construction or built some time after?
What was their purpose?

SIZE -
How was the 15,800 perch count calculated?
What it the total weight of the Viaduct today?
Take measurements of the structure and compare specs to built dimensions.

TRACKS -
What type of rails were originally laid?
When were the original rails replaced?
When was the Viaduct ballasted?  Longitudinal sleepers in channels do not require ballast but a report says the Viaduct was originally ballasted so were the longitudinal sleepers ever used?  If so, when were they abandoned?
If the Viaduct used longitudinal sleepers, what type of rail support system was used for the remainder of the railroad?
Where are the photos of the Viaduct's longitudinal channels?
Was the Revere spur laid on longitudinal sleepers?
When was the Revere spur built?
When the road was built wide enough for two sets of tracks, was the single set of tracks laid in the middle of the roadbed or off to one side?  If off to one side, there must have been a lane switch/crossover before and after the Viaduct due to the original Viaduct's single track being centered.

TRAFFIC -
How many vehicles pass under the Viaduct per day?
How many trains pass over the Viaduct per day?
What is the Viaducts load limit?

WATERFALL -
When was the waterfall dam built?  One report claims 1900, but it was there before the Viaduct.
What businesses used water power from the Viaducts sluiceway and waterfall?
When were railings added at the waterfall?
Since the Viaduct waterfall dam has no spillway to carry off silt is the area between the Viaduct and waterfall periodically dredged?

WING WALL ABUTMENTS -
Were the wing wall abutments completed prior to or during the Viaduct's construction?
  1. ^ "National Register Information System". National Register of Historic Places. National Park Service. 2008-04-15.