Wikipedia talk:Did you know/TangTalk

This page was created to move discussions regarding the book of tang off the dyk page --Victuallers (talk) 11:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Huangfu Bo (history)

... that the Tang Dynasty chancellor Pei Du was so distressed by the prospect of serving with Huangfu Bo that he offered to resign?

Created by Nlu (talk). Self nom at 05:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am concerned that this article is only referenced by the Book of Tang, New Book of Tang, and Zizhi Tongjian, all written at least 1000 years ago, and not by any recent scholarship on the Tang Dynasty that clearly exists. —Mattisse (Talk) 21:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

None of the sources were written "at least 1000 years ago." I am not convinced that a less-reliable modern source needs to be cited when the medieval sources are more reliable. --Nlu (talk) 02:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why are the medieval sources more reliable? They do not conform to our definition of reliable: peer-review and fact checked. Note that WP:RS specifically recommends that we use scholarly sources. In classes on Chinese history, for example, students read textbooks and secondary sources written by historians. This is what the field considers reliable material, so this is what we must use. Awadewit (talk) 04:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But as discussed the last time we went over this -- they were peer-reviewed, although by the time that they were written, they could no longer be "fact-checked" -- neither can any modern sources on the issues. They have to rely on the same medieval sources that you are criticizing. Certainly Bo Yang, whom I consider to be highly influential in the field despite his originally non-historian background, had to rely on these sources extensively. I still don't see what is the point of citing Bo, for example, when he still just relayed the same assertions. --Nlu (talk) 05:11, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia operates by consensus ... make, create or encourage one please ... there are lots who want to make things work Victuallers (talk) 10:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Peer Review is meant to be an aid to editors. Peer Review is not a seal of approval or validation of the article contents. Many peer reviewed articles have sourcing problems after peer review. —Mattisse (Talk) 20:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Li Yong (Tang Dynasty) (history)

... that the Tang Dynasty chancellor Li Yong, ashamed to have been recommended by the eunuch Tutu Chengcui, never assumed chancellorship authorities and resigned thereafter?

Created by Nlu (talk). Self nom at 19:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article relies entirely on ancient texts or Chinese language websites. Since there are plenty of modern historical works on the Tang Dynasty, as demonstrated by this Tang Dynasty article, as well as the many others on Wikipedia on Chinese history, I am concerned that this editor is creating an article that is not based on any references to current historical knowledge. —Mattisse (Talk) 21:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Those modern sources either 1) don't provide sufficient depth of coverage or 2) simply relay medieval (not ancient) sources so cited anyway. I could cite the Bo Yang Edition of the Zizhi Tongjian for each of the citations, instead of the Zizhi Tongjian itself. That would not provide any additional reliability. (When I need to cite Bo instead of Sima because I am citing to Bo's commentary or notes, I do it; otherwise, citing Bo would be effectively meaningless.) Please note that we've had this discussion not too long ago, and while there was no consensus, I think I can accurately say that the majority position was in accordance with mine rather than with yours. --Nlu (talk) 02:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is a misrepresentation of the discussion. It was actually quite difficult to determine what "side" people fell on because at the RSN, there were nuanced views. Most importantly, WP:RS specifically recommends scholarly sources. We should quote what scholars say is the most reliable information from these older sources and we should explain to readers the context in which these older sources were written. The most reliable information on Chinese history is that provided by historians. We are not in a position to analyze these older works ourselves and to decide what to include from them and what to leave out. That is what historians do. Moreover, Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent WP:NPOV. The articles that you are submitting make no attempt to articulate the contemporary view of historians; the articles are thus POV. Awadewit (talk) 04:46, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reopen the discussion if you want. I find your representation to be a misrepresentation. In any case, I find it curious that apparently, by your definition, Sima Guang and Ouyang Xiu were not historians. That, I submit, is a ridiculous definition. In any case, people can go back to the discussion and look at the points made. Don't consider a source unreliable just because you're not familiar with it. To be frank, I also find it, for the lack of a better word, offensive that you are apparently again simply ignoring the points made not only by myself but a number of other people in that discussion thread without addressing them. It certainly makes me feel like that the points I made then, which I certainly spent time and energy constructing, to be completely pointless, since you not only aren't listening -- and I am not asking you to necessarily agree to me -- but are simply blocking the points out in your arguments without addressing them. --Nlu (talk) 05:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The most important point here is that knowledge has advanced since 900-1000. New ideas and theories about Chinese history have been developed. For some reason I cannot fathom, you are intent on ignoring all of it. It is not that we should not include anything from these sources - the problem is relying exclusively on them. It is as if you are saying there is nothing to learn from the modern field of history, which is significantly different from what it was 1000 years ago. Awadewit (talk) 05:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't cite what doesn't exist. As I've written, contemporary sources simply don't provide the same type of coverage (unless they are simply relaying). Certainly I don't expect a single contemporary source to cover Li Yong's life to the same extent. If you can find one, be my guest. Wikipedia is a collaborative editing process, and I am certainly not preventing, nor can I prevent, anyone from putting any contradictory information about Li Yong if such information can be found in contemporary sources.
Take Wang Chengzong for example. In that article, I believe that I gave a fairly extensive discussion as given in the Book of Tang and the Zizhi Tongjian regarding his requesting Tian Hongzheng to intercede for him in requesting mercy from Emperor Xianzong of Tang. Bo Yang summarized the event in his Timelines of Chinese History with the very simple description of, in his entry for 818: "Li Shidao and Wang Chengzong heard of Wu Yuanji's defeat, and became very fearful. Li Shidao surrendered Xin, Mi, and Hai Prefectures, and Wang Chengzong surrendered De and Di Prefectures. Li Shidao soon reneged. Li Chun issued an edict to attack Li Shidao." Succinct and accurate, but not enough coverage for an article about Wang Chengzong. Bo's Bo Yang Edition of the Zizhi Tongjian, being a translation of the Zizhi Tongjian to modern Chinese, simply relayed the Zizhi Tongjian version, and I believe it is completely pointless to cite either unless there is an unique assertion I'm citing therein that is not contained in the original. (Bo often made commentaries and at times cited other sources in comparison in the Bo Yang Edition; in those situations, I do cite Bo, but otherwise, because Bo was simply relaying Sima, citing Bo rather than Sima is, indeed, in my opinion, inaccurate.) --Nlu (talk) 05:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will also state this: I am not only not opposed, but would be ecstatic if reliable contemporary sources are available that include archaeological and scientific evidence. For example, the opening up of Li Chongrun's tomb and the findings of the artwork and written text therein certainly would add to our understanding of Li Chongrun's life beyond what is in the medieval texts. If, for example, eventually DNA evidence showed that, hypothetically, Li Chongrun was the biological son of Wu Sansi rather than Emperor Zhongzong of Tang, then that information should not only be included in Li Chongrun's article, but should supplant the medieval sources' assertions about Li Chongrun's being Emperor Zhongzong's son. But I am aware of no comparable evidence about Li Yong. This means that the medieval sources are the best sources that we have for Li Yong's life, unless you can point me to a more reliable contemporary source. --Nlu (talk) 05:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia operates by consensus ... make, create or encourage one please ... its not fair that the rule is 5 days and these are 2 weeks old Victuallers (talk) 11:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The continuing trouble with these hooks that there is a whole body of recent evidence showing archeological evidence that people and places were not always located as described in texts over 1000 years old. It is also interesting that almost none of the persons noted in the older manuscripts seem to have importance in the well researched Tang Dynasty article that these articles use in their hooks. I feel the whole endeavor is unrepresentative. It the editor would put in the hook something like " ... according to the Book of Tang, chancellor Li Yong, ashamed to have been recommended by the eunuch Tutu Chengcui, never assumed chancellorship authorities and resigned thereafter?" - then that would be more accurate. —Mattisse (Talk) 13:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Awadewit and Mattisse for addressing this; it's been annoying me as well. Basing an article on medieval sources instead of modern scholarship amounts to WP:OR, because the reliability and veracity of such sources necessarily is a matter of scholarly interpretation. When I write articles on medieval subjects I try to avoid direct use of chronicles as far as possible. I am not familiar with Chinese history in this period, but if modern historians only "relay" what the ancient sources say, then they are not really historians at all, at best antiquarians. And if no WP:RS exist (and by that I mean scholarly material written within the last couple of centuries), then perhaps there should be no articles on these subjects until they do. As it stands, these articles do not adhere to Wikipedia's standards, and certainly should not go on the Main Page. Lampman (talk) 13:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I should add that another one of these, Li Yijian, has already been moved into the queue. Lampman (talk) 14:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the discussion (which I've linked to) the last time the issue came up on as to whether the sources constituted reliable sources. Note that nothing in WP:RS currently indicates that the sources are not considered reliable sources. Indeed, they fit every single criterion that I can think of in WP:RS. Effectively, to take them out of the group of reliable sources for Wikipedia standards requires a consensus to change policy, and none was created to do so the last time the issue was discussed. Indeed, I would say that in that discussion, the view presented by Awadelit and Mattisse was clearly the minority view. If either of them (or you) wants to reopen the discussion, be my guest, but no one should act as if the discussion actually created a consensus that went against what the actual majority view was. --Nlu (talk) 16:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Let me also say that I have no objection to Mattisse's putting "According to the Book of Tang ..." qualifier. But as my own personal view is that such a qualifier is unnecessary (but unobjectionable), let whoever believes that it is necessary put it in. I won't do it. But I won't stop (and can't stop) anyone else from doing it. (What I do find objectionable is effectively a backdoor way of questioning these sources without reopening the discussion as to whether they are reliable sources. If the discussion should be reopened, then it should be reopened. Don't continue raising the objections that had been rejected by the majority the last time that we had a discussion without reopening the discussion.) --Nlu (talk) 16:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Read again. In the RS section named "Scolarship" it says "However, some scholarly material may be outdated, superseded by more recent research, in competition with alternate theories, or controversial within the relevant field." In the field of history sources may still be relevant after one or two generations, but a thousand years is just plain ridiculous. As for the previous discussion, you seem to be putting a very personal spin on that. There were some who thought ancient sources could be used in combination with modern scholarship, but as far as I could see nobody meant they could be used exclusively. In any case, consensus is irrelevant when it so clearly violates basic policies; policy always takes precedence over consensus. Lampman (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How does the portion of WP:RS you quote show that using them clearly violates basic policies? It's hardly clear, particularly when the sentence itself used "may." Moreover, there has been no showing at all that there is "superced[ing] ... recent research" at all. There is also no showing of "competition with alternate theories, or controvers[y] within the relevant field." If there is, obviously those competing theories, superceding research, or controversy should be noted and discussed. (That's exactly what I did, I feel, in articles like Li Chongrun and Princess Taiping, where, indeed, there is archaeological evidence and other textual evidence that is relevant.) There is no need to disqualify medieval material when no controversy exists. (Certainly no one questions the reliability of these sources on Chinese Wikipedia.) Again, if you feel that a reopening of the discussion is necessary, reopen the discussion. --Nlu (talk) 19:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean that "no controversy exists"? If no modern scholarship exists on the subject, then you simply don't have the reliable sources for an article. If the material is corroborated by modern scholarship then those sources should be used, because they're inherently more reliable. Lampman (talk) 20:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, do you propose that we start deleting all articles about ancient (and here, I'm talking about 1500+-year-old personalities) that are uncorroborated by any archaeological evidence? Be my guest to bring them all up on AfDs. Somehow, I don't think those AfDs will go anywhere. --Nlu (talk) 02:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again, if you want to change the definition of reliable sources to exclude these sources, open another discussion or reopen the one that was previously held. Don't act as you are the supreme authority on what is reliable and what is not reliable. --Nlu (talk) 02:41, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Nlu here, the sources he has used do constitute reliable sources. Additionally, primary sources are supposed to be more reliable than secondary sources, as they provide the most accurate account. There is nothing in WP:RS that states that use of primary sources always constitute WP:OR in regards to historical articles. The word "caution" is used, which is an entirely different concept, and I am sure that Nlu has been cautious in his usage of sources. From looking at his previous works, we can accept in good faith that Nlu has no intention of providing inaccurate material. Regards, -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email guestbook complaints 03:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I again disagree with Nlu here, No matter how he justifies the usage of the "primary sources", articles referenced solely by those ancient sources does not constitute our policies on sourcing and similar problems can be seen in articles of East Asian history.--Caspian blue 03:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This anti-primary source issue has already been recognized by university academics. See criticism of wikipedia. There is some really crazy fetish with 3rd party sources. Which is good if there are enough to choose from. But clearly not always the case. Benjwong (talk) 03:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent for related topic) Adding a wrinkle to the sharpei: this issue has quite degenerated at Cui Qun (a former DYK suggestion that Nlu has let expire by refusing three times to add a single inline note for sourcing the hook[1]), where Nlu's comrade Benjwong has removed 5 times the annotated tags for primary sources, missing inline citations, and unadequate lead (as seen removed on this diff). A baby bro to this discussion took place at WP/ANI (permalink to post-discussion ANI). I think one crux of the problem may be summarized with this remark, "[Benjwong writes:] If the interpretation of the material by a 3rd party author has greater weight than the original author, that is pretty crazy I think."[2] which is echoed here with "[Benlisquare writes:] primary sources are supposed to be more reliable than secondary sources, as they provide the most accurate account" – primary sources vs. secondary sources, so we each see the other as crazy! (Except that Wikipedia has chosen secondary sources.) And maybe that my summary about Cui Qun could also apply to most of Nlu's articles:

1) If the subject is WP:NOTABLE enough, then there are certainly modern scholars who have produced modern secondary sources about him, after at least critically cross-examining those only Tang sources, in order to produce reliable material for today – even if they eventually accepted or concurred with the original source, their expert work at reaching those conclusions is what will make them a reliable source (as opposed to 900-year-old documents written to please an Emperor that could execute anybody and whose text can have been tampered with any number of times – and hosted on Chinese Wikisource where anyone can rewrite them). Even if modern sources are scant or slim, they should provide the reliable skeleton of an article, possibly expanded and complemented by irreplaceable Tang sources duly quoted or noted as "according to..." (As it's done for Biblical events, or for the life of Casanova from his Memoirs vs. the scant historical records about him.)
2) Else, "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information" - Jimmy Wales in Wikipedia:Verifiability policy — The Little Blue Frog (ribbit) 07:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

brief comment re consensus. Hooks wait here for peer review. The consensus here appears to be that the addition of "according to" would remove all major issues. The author has no objection to this, but refuses to do it. By all means continue to discuss the sources issue ... elsewhere? But I think this hook has timed out on the DYK process. A resolution acceptable to all has been identified, but the author refuses to put it in the article. Under my understanding of the DYK process, this is the end Victuallers (talk) 09:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to understand... This is at least the second time Nlu is letting an otherwise accepted DYK expire for a minuscule reason (not adding a mere copy of an inline ref next to the hook, or not adding a mere "according to"). Is there some cultural problem here too? Is it considered a loss of face or a "feminine weakness" to change something himself at the request of external parties, or somehow conflated with an admission of error or lack of competence? Surely such repeated stubborness on simple things has some reason. — The Little Blue Frog (ribbit) 10:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I've said before, I find "according to" to be unobjectionable but unnecessary, and therefore, if someone believes that it is necessary, let that person add it. I'm not stopping anyone from doing so.

But the issue here is greater than that. It involves the rejection of a whole body of otherwise considered reliable works (certainly Chinese historians, both in the past and the present, both in the academia and without, consider them sufficiently enough to be relaying the information as reliable) without a proper policy discussion. If the Wikipedia community decides to reject these sources as a whole, fine, that's the community's decision. I have serious objections about several people, based on their personal views without full understanding of the methods of these sources' creation, rejecting the sources without engaging the community in a policy discussion, particularly because the last policy discussion on the issue certainly not only did not create a consensus that conformed with their views, but had a majority (albeit not a consensus) that went against their views. --Nlu (talk) 15:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Defining primary and secondary sources purely based on the narrow and clearly inadequate definition in WP:PSTS is pure wikilawyering; even if a source was originally written as a secondary source, no responsible historian will uncritically use any pre-c. 1800 source as such.

I'm not trained in the Chinese history tradition, so I read up on the subject. It seems clear that the authoritative work on the subject is Endymion Wilkinson's "Chinese History: A Manual" (2000), where you find the following:

In a country such as China with a long tradition of historical writing and compilation, the distinction between a primary and a secondary source is not an easy one to make. (p. 483)
...
Because of the long and sophisticated historiographical trend in China, instead of working from official archives or private documents (as in post-Rankean European historiography), the modern student of Chinese history is liable to be handling historical works compiled by Chinese historians continuously over the last 3,000 years. In order to be able to assess the qualities and the biases of these works, clearly some knowledge of the aims and methods of the historians and compilers who produced them is essential. (p. 490)

Endymion Wilkinson, Chinese History: A Manual

I will freely admit that I did not know enough about Chinese historical research, and that it might have some essential differences from the European tradition. This doesn't change the basis point that I have been making all along though; rather Wilkinson supports it. If you read the last sentence, you clearly see that using these sources requires the knowledge and interpretative skills of a trained historian. Hence the direct use of such sources, without the corroboration by a modern-day scholarly authority, is inherently WP:OR. Lampman (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But all sources require that kind of interpretation. Certainly when we write articles based on modern sources, we don't shut our brains off without some interpretation of the modern texts. That does not mean that all of that writing is original research. Nothing in WP:OR suggests that, particularly since WP:PSTS defines primary sources in a different way that Wilkinson does. Again, if you believe that the definition should be changed to fit these sources under the definition of primary sources, open a policy discussion. Backdooring your own view on the matter in and act as if it already policy is inappropriate. --Nlu (talk) 15:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly all sources should be treated with caution, but that is why WP:RS recommends peer-reviewed sources from reliable journals or publishing houses. First of all there's a difference between modern publications from independent academic institutions, and work made under the patronage of autocratic rulers. Secondly, historical methodology has developed significantly over the last thousand years. I'd be happy to debate clarifying the policies, but presently we're debating how the– admittedly vague– guidelines should be applied to a specific case, and to me consensus seems to be against building articles entirely on ancient sources. Lampman (talk) 18:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that a consensus is forming in that direction -- but assuming that it is. What do you propose should be done with medieval sources? (This is not a trick question; I don't think under any definition of the word "ancient" can the sources that I used be considered ancient.) Assuming your answer is the same, the next answer would be: what do you do with clearly notable individuals for whom no modern source is available, at least to the editor? And on whom should the onus of finding the modern source be? One thought I have is: the onus should be on the editor who believes that a modern source exists and can be found. After all, if you believe that a modern source improves it, why should you not be the one who goes out and finds the modern source? --Nlu (talk) 03:08, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The whole peer-review process does not make sense. Some of these subjects are so new to far-east studies (in the west), you simply cannot find English sources period. Your choice is either the authentic Book of Tang in Chinese, or a less reliable source probably also in Chinese. In this situation, why would wikipedia not allow the primary source? The entire 24 histories are acknowledged worldwide by well known universities and scholars. Benjwong (talk) 03:42, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Issue

Ok I was not aware this issue was so massive. I ran into a tagging debate with Little Blue Frog. And this was debated over at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Repeated removal of annotated unresolved issue tags and Talk:Cui Qun. This avoidance of primary sources is bizarre. Is like we cannot distinguish one article from another, and the rules are applied in the most robotic mindless method. Every other language wikipedia is translating from English sources over. English wikipedia is the only one with a problem with reverse translations. Look around. Benjwong (talk) 03:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]