Talk:Wandsworth Parks and Events Police

RfC: Wandsworth Parks Police

User with COI is eschewing talk page discussion and editing with POV statements. ninety:one 14:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

RfC: That is bad! Seriously, uninvolved editors need to be told about the content dispute, not how an editor is breaking policy.Yobmod (talk) 10:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

the content dispute requires reading three talk pages.. this is very complicated. ninety:one 12:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

So how about explaining one disputed edit at a time - the easier it is for uninvolved editors to understand, the more likely consensus will be reached. The only problem i see from a first read is a lack of citations - try adding fact tags and letting editors find support for their claims for a reasonable but limited time period. Following procedure may be slow, but it helps to diffuse personality clashes :-) Yobmod (talk) 08:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

one of the main issues, as demonstrated further down this page, is the title of the constables. added tags. ninety:one 12:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"There are some that hold an opinion, that the Monadnock Extendable Batons carried by these Police Constables may not be lawful in a public place." This is not the place for this, file a police report, and immediately delete this wp:or

This case will not be resolved by an RfC in my opinion. It is not clearly articulated what the issue is. My take is that one user should be banned from this article because they are just too close to this topic. I suggest the next step in the dispute resolution. Raggz (talk) 10:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It was actually one of the constables that added that sentence, but I'm only to happy to source it. ninety:one 21:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Outstanding issues

several points.

• 'Police Constables' - not only do countless reports say this title is inaccurate, the law does not use this title and Wandsworth refers to them as anything but 'Police Constables' because they do not have full police powers. The term 'Police Constable' is misleading and should be replaced immediately.
• Dog section - this text is still copyrighted on the website and is a currently a copyvio. Tagged as such. ninety:one 20:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Every sworn in Police Officer or Police Constable (if you prefer) of the Wandsworth Parks Police. Is attested at Magistrates Court and is a Crown Servant amongst their other roles. Further up is that of the oath that every Police Officer (England & Wales) must take. and here is again an explanation of a that all attested Police Constables are Police Officers etc. </http://www.polfed.org/OC_Final.pdf> . Please do not have me explain it all again to you, just go back to on this discussion page its all there. TopCat666 (talk) 23:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Wandsworth council say they do not carry CS because they are not Crown Servants. 1967 constables are not attested under the PRA 2002 oath, it means nothing. You have ignored the fact that Wandsworth council does not call them 'Police Constables', and the fact that such a description would misleadingly imply that they have full police powers. (McGeddon, can you archive some of this? I would, but I wasn't sure which method you used before) ninety:one 17:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I just added a template asking MiszaBot to archive anything over a month old - it'll do it automatically for old content. --McGeddon (talk) 23:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

We do not wish to carry CS Spray, we would like to carry PAVA pepper spray. The only reason we do not carry either, is because they are classed as a firearm and therefore a firearms licence is required. Nothing to do with us being Crown Servants. As I said before please do not let me explain it all again! I do not understand your reasoning on the full police powers. You know we have the full powers of a Police Officer when we are performing our core function. So who is hoodwinking who? TopCat666 (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

If you have full powers, why this? "with a few exceptions enjoy the powers and privileges of the office of a Constable." Doug Weller (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

the only powers they have are whilst enforcing parks bylaws, and even then they can only arrest if they think someone is lying about their name or address or search after a bylaw offence. the reason 1967 constables can't carry CS/PAVA is because they are not excluded by section 54 3 a of the firearms act 1968. I certainly had read in one of the countless reports that the reason was due to them not being Crown Servants - which whilst not incorrect is an oversimplification. anyway, the argument is not about 'Crown Servants' but 'Police Constables' - what is wrong with just 'constable'? ninety:one 16:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

A member of the Wandsworth Police Service, upon being sworn in and taking the oath at the local Magistrates Court. Shall in their jurisdictions have the powers of a Police Constable to enforce the bye-laws and other enactments relating to openspace law. They will generally have no police powers in the other jurisdictions, unless he/she has been additionally sworn in as occurs with police in border areas, many of what are perceived as "police" powers, such as the general power of arrest, are actually possessed by all persons. So a Wandsworth Parks Police Constable is never totally powerless. All police officers are "Police Constables" in law, irrespective of rank. You will see we do not only have powers to enforce bye-laws, we arrest many criminals both in and outside the parks. Including handcuffing them and other police restraint holds. 91, you may recognize some of the research above! ;) TopCat666 (talk) 17:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

How clever of you, copypasting text from Law enforcement in the United Kingdom and inserting words in. The section is innaccurate and I am re-writing it at the moment (here).

• 'we arrest many criminals both in and outside the parks. Including handcuffing them and other police restraint holds.' - that is perfectly legal, handcuffs are not offensive weapons - even i could do what you just said.
• 'we do not only have powers to enforce bye-laws' - that's funny, the law says you are sworn in as a constable for the purpose of 'securing the observance of... ...bye-laws and regulations...'
• again, what is wrong with 'constable'? ninety:one 18:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Even funnier anyone can enforce the law, thats where common law any persons powers started and sec 24a PACE at the moments finishes. Surely you would not expect a sworn in Police Officer to ignore a crime being committed? You had better rethink your rewrite, before someone else does. By the way do not restrict nicking people to the borough of Wandsworth either.

Police Officer or Police Constable I do not mind either, in the law courts we are referred to as Police Officer, by the Judge. So unless you at last actually present concrete evidence and not your personal view or hang up. We can continue this circle for ever,(or until there is some legislation change either way). TopCat666 (talk) 20:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Well guess what, the legislation calls you a 'constable'. I could cite any one of countless reports which refer to you as anything but 'Police Constables'. Also, the sentence 'The service also holds Her Majesty's Golden Jubilee Medal as Police Officers' is inaccurate - the reference you cite says 'members of the police service', and can not be used to back up the title 'Police Officers'. ninety:one 19:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Verifiablity of sources

WP:VERIFY "This page in a nutshell: Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source." Something similar has been discussed on the Reliable sources noticeboard [1]. Like the document in that case, the FOI document in this case has not been published. I'm raising the issue there [2]. - Oops, forgot to sign. Doug Weller (talk) 16:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The information is not likely to be challenged, and the only quotation is from the 1967 Act which I'm trying to get out of the Lords library. Still, Wandsworth ignored my requests to publish it, though i'm sure there's some way of forcing them. In this case, there's precious little else to go on. ninety:one 16:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but having taken part in the Aspartame discussion, I felt this should be raised--it interests me as someone who has been involved in FOI requests anyway. Doug Weller (talk) 17:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. Is there any way to make them publish a FOI response? In fact, according to Topcat, this is a standard document they produce not a custom-written one. Topcat, as you can see it's in your own interests to publish the document - can you try and do this? ninety:one 18:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The FOI response as it stands adds little value. Clearly it's a standard information sheet, hence ephemera rather than record, but by hosting it and referencing it without including the FOI itself you render it liable to fairly significant abuse. Frankly the use of the source is pretty tortured as it stands.

ALR (talk) 09:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

latest additions

• You cited the Fed report. They are not members of the Fed, but of Unison. It is clearly irrelevant. The paragraph I assume you're trying to refer to specifically refers to Fed (ie non-1967) constables swearing an oath - one stipulated by the Police Acts. Even if 1967 constables do swear this oath, it has no meaning in law because it is not stipulated - again, as far as I know - by the 1967 act.
• You can't cite something if it doesn't back up a claim. Simply linking to s110 of SOCAP after 'police powers' is meaningless as a citation.
• Why should we call them 'Police Constables' when the title, as stated by the council, is 'Parks Police Constables'? Why, when numerous reports say using the title 'Police Constable' is inaccurate and possibly illegal? Why, when they do not have the powers of normal constables? ninety:one 20:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

though you now seem to be ignoring this, justifications for latest edit:

• • The HSE ref is totally unrelated.
  • 'So a Wandsworth Parks Police Constable is never powerless and may arrest using reasonable force' goes for absolutely any person as explained by the fact it is a citizen's arrest.
  • Regardless of the fact that 'Border areas' refers to areas on the English/Scottish border, no parks constable will be sworn in by the Met as a constable.
  • There are no powers available while assisting a constable at all, and even if there were a forum is not a reliable source. ninety:one 19:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

91: You are wrong I have been onto UNISON via my UNISON Rep, there is no warnings issued to any Police Officer not to use their Batons. I have undone your POV edits as well as they are a blatant vandalism to the article. There are stated CASES IN LAW in the specials forum and therefore the reference is citable. My UNISON rep may yet report your action for official sanction. Provide a reference to back up this claim or remove forthwith. TopCat666 (talk) 20:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

TopCat666, this is not a good way to carry out a content dispute. Please read WP:ATTACK and I really think you had better withdraw what looks very much like a threat. Doug Weller (talk) 21:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Part V

Miscellaneous and General

s.89 Assaults on constables (1) Any person who assaults a constable in the execution of his duty, or a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both. (2) Any person who resists or wilfully obstructs a constable in the execution of his duty, or a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or to both. (3) This section also applies to a constable who is a member of a police force maintained in Scotland or Northern Ireland when he is executing a warrant, or otherwise acting in England or Wales, by virtue of any enactment conferring powers on him in England and Wales. TopCat666 (talk) 21:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(That does not give anyone the powers of a constable!) Was that a legal threat? My edit is referenced and factually correct. I actually can not believe you said 'Provide a reference to back up this claim or remove forthwith'. A national magazine with a circulation of a million is my reference, as cited... Furthermore, the phrase 'They will generally have no police powers in the other jurisdictions, unless he/she has been additionally sworn in as occurs with police in border areas' is utterly useless - as stated above, it applies to members of the police forces next to the English-Scottish border. Furthermore, no parks constable has been sworn in by the Met. ninety:one 22:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The s89 of the police Act 1996 is quite clear that anyone can assist a Police Constable who come under the act. Why are you suggesting anyone is saying anything different? As for Private Eye Magazine, are you quoting an article from it as a reference for your UNISON warning not to use our batons (anymore)? Let me know, or I will take it as read and get my own copy and seek verification from UNISON. If however you have muddled the two together you are able correct this. TopCat666 (talk) 23:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Also note I object to you completely removing some of my edits claiming they are irrelevant. This is a difficult road for us to go down as I think a lot of you edits are personal and irrevelant. I merely add my tuppence worth and expect everybody else to do the same. TopCat666 (talk) 23:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• • Section 89 merely states that if you assault or obstruct someone who is helping a constable then it is an offence. It says nothing about anyone getting any powers whatsoever.
  • I'm not entirely sure what you're asking but the Private Eye article states: 'The council workers' trade union, Unison, is advising its members in the parks constabulary not to carry the batons under any circumstances'.
  • 'So a Wandsworth Parks Police Constable is never powerless and may arrest using reasonable force' - as can any person. Sentance clarified to include this.
  • The first SOCAPA ref (after 'the police powers') does not back up any claim, so is pointless and needs removing.

You have not responded to my points about the Fed or HSE references or the border areas sentence, so I have removed them. ninety:one 12:18, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

You have not justified your edits so I have undone them and have not answered my questions or replied to my request to justify your irrevelant editing. TopCat666 (talk) 15:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Which questions have I not answered? Instead of blindly reverting, paste the content you believe should not be removed and justify it. ninety:one 18:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Practice what you preach and let me help you.

You justify your adding of unecessary references for instance UNISON advice, which you still haven't quantified and I am waiting for reply from my Regional Officer. As for Private Eye what is that all about? I do not know what you are trying to prove with the article. Why do you not enlighten us? I may be able to help you with advice particularily on the legal side. I have substantial amount of case law and practical experience along with access to NPIA I can see you are struggling to get across your point of view and I have no problem with that. Please except my offer of help, this is more in depth then you have been used to. TopCat666 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC).

You just claimed that I didn't answer your questions, but you won't tell me what those questions are. The best thing you could do is publish the PDF you sent me as an FOI response.

I have no point of view, I am not trying to prove anything. I have never seen a WPP officer, let alone had dealings with them. All I'm trying to do is build an accurate article.

• The sentence 'They will generally have no police powers in the other jurisdictions, unless he/she has been additionally sworn in as occurs with police in border areas or assisting a Police Constable' is misleading.
  • Regardless of the fact that 'Border areas' refers to areas on the English/Scottish border, no parks constable will be sworn in by the Met as a constable.
  • Section 89 merely states that if you assault or obstruct someone who is helping a constable then it is an offence. It says nothing about anyone getting any powers whatsoever. Sentence needs removing.
• What have I not 'quantified' about the UNISON advice?
• 'So a Wandsworth Parks Police Constable is never powerless and may arrest using reasonable force' - as can any person. Sentance needs clarifying to include this.
• The first SOCAPA ref ('As each London Borough Council is independent, the police powers[6]') does not back up any claim, so is pointless and needs removing.
• You cited the Fed report. They are not members of the Fed, but of Unison. It is clearly irrelevant. The paragraph I assume you're trying to refer to specifically refers to Fed (ie non-1967) constables swearing an oath - one stipulated by the Police Acts. Even if 1967 constables do swear this oath, it has no meaning in law because it is not stipulated - again, as far as I know - by the 1967 act.
• The HSE ref is totally unrelated to parks constables. ninety:one 15:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)