Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable, and editors interested in sourcing issues will answer. The reliability of sourcing is heavily dependent upon context, so please include not only the source in question, but the article in which it is being cited, as well as links to any relevant talk page discussions or article diffs. Please post new topics in a new section.

The guideline that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is Reliable sources. The policies that most directly relate are: Verifiability, No original research, and Neutral point of view. For questions about the sourcing policy, please go to the Verifiability talk page.

If your question is about whether material constitutes original research, please use the No original research notice board. This noticeboard is not a place for general discussion of issues or for disputes about content.

This noticeboard deals specifically with sources, not articles. General questions about articles, including "which sources in Article X are reliable?" may be beyond the scope of this noticeboard and may be better handled on the article talk page or the talk page of an interested WikiProject.

Shogakukan/Kodansha Manga Award

Wondering if these two sources are reliable:

• http://www.hahnlibrary.net/comics/awards/kodansha.php
• http://comics.shogakukan.co.jp/mangasho/rist.html

Extremepro (talk) 12:34, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

This discussion has been posted to WT:ANIME. Extremepro (talk) 06:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Italians-R-Us.com

General question: Is this a reliable source? And if not (or even if it is reliable, I'd still like to know this next part), does a site's unreliability extend to all content - even an interview with the subject, for example?

More specifically: In Robin Arcuri, an editor is using this new interview as a source, but I'm very skeptical of how reliable it can be viewed as.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 19:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Not reliable at all. DreamGuy (talk) 21:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Bump to get this to the top of my contributions list.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 18:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

www.spirit-of-metal.com

or Metal Archives. Any chance of getting Spirit of Metal, and/or http://www.metal-archives.com/ added as a citable source? We really need a definitive decision on metal music and I find that these 2 sites best document the genre. It gets out of hand when people have to quote a source from "Allmusicguide" when often their view concerning metal music is appalling. So it would be nice to have a proper Metal website to quote sources from. ThePerfectVirus (talk) 20:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

• Both of these websites are user-edited. Websites edited by fans are not reliable. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 11:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC))
• Agree with Ibaranoff... neither is reliable. Blueboar (talk) 12:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
• Agreed, these sites do not pass muster with WP:RS. As far as sources go, I understand many folks like web based sources as one may peruse them with little effort but print sources should never be overlooked. There are quite a few books (music crit., media studies, social psych., etc.) devoted to the metal genre readily available at your local library, book, or record store. Cheers. L0b0t (talk) 13:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Also very reliable industry sources in print... such as Rolling Stone magazine. Blueboar (talk) 15:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Memri

The Middle East Media Research Institute is a highly partisan presss monitoring group run by Yigal Carmon, a retired Israeli colonel (who specialized in intelligence). The criticisms of this group's work -- largely by their ideological opponents, it must be said -- as a distorting propoganda operation are legion. Here's a post by Marc Lynch, a middle east expert at GW (his bio here [1] from a few years ago [2] that i think fairly captures the way academia feels about Memri's "translations." I can provide example after example of situations where their trnaslations have been contested, but it's fair to say that no one in academia views them as reliable (because it's assumed they distort translations for political ends.) So, while i'd hope that Memri would never be considered a reliable source for anything, I certainly don't think it's a reliable source for teh claim that one of the most important preachers in Egypt refered to jews as the descendants of "apes and pigs" per this inserted edit here. If a public figure said something that extreme, surely there's a reliable source that reported it?Bali ultimate (talk) 13:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There are other RS's that support that, no? Or am I confused about what figure you are talking about? IronDuke 22:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Agree, Memri is highly partisan. If this is true, there should be independent sources which reported it. --hippo43 (talk) 10:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Oppose—per 'According to ...' clause, which is duly used in the article. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:20, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

It's not an "according to" followed by an opinion. It's an "according to" followed by a claimed statement of fact. That's a crucial distinction.Bali ultimate (talk) 14:27, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no such distinction. When a clearly notable but partisan (and/or unreliable) source makes a controversial claim (i.e. they claim it's a fact), you write 'According to [source], [claim]'. It should be clear to any reader what this means. That's how it works all over Wikipedia. Also, I'm again assuming that you spelled 'jews' without capital J by accident. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Since this is an allegation against a living person (assuming he is, and whatever the article in question is) BLP demands controversial statements/accusations of facts have impeccable sourcing. And the standard for the deceased is just about as high. It's certainly a statement that would be repeated elsewhere, if true. Also the implication of bigotry is unnecessarily WP:uncivil. Also see previous discussions on MEMRI #1, #2 CarolMooreDC (talk) 15:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

This jew who doesn't care about Capitalization found that implication highly offensive and passive aggressive. But i'll get over it. Thanks for posting the past Memri discussions.Bali ultimate (talk) 15:22, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Glad you didn't take offense. My thinking on this is that Ynhockey made it clear that he was assuming good faith, and correcting a grammar error. Re: Memri. That fact that a given source is partisan is not grounds to dismiss it. The question has to do with reliability. If it were not so, we would dismiss Al-Jazeera, the BBC, Fox News, etc. etc Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:29, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

You misunderstand. I take extreme offense to that comment, and don't believe for one second his intent was to point out a grammatical issue of no relevance to anyone. He was passively aggressively attributing bigotry to me. That's offensive and he should have been ashamed of such a low tactic. Now, i'm a big boy and my day won't be ruined because Ynhockey behaved so appallingly. But it was indeed offensive. Just so we're clear.Bali ultimate (talk) 15:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I think if you simply spelled "Jew" properly, you would dispel his qualms. IronDuke 22:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Oppose per ynhockey.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 15:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

As to Memri - it has a reputation for innaccuracy and partisanship in its translations. That should diaqualify it as a reilable source for translations that are contentious. Says who? GW Middle East professor and fluent arabic speaker Marc Lynch [3] [4]. Umich Middle East professor and fluent arabic speaker Juan Cole [5]. Fluent Arabic speaker and Guardian Middle East editor Brian Whitaker [6]. Here's a Le Monde Diplomatique article describing memri as misleading and disinforming with some specific examples.[7]. Etc... Bali ultimate (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Cole's being a "fluent" Arab speaker makes him an expert? Hm. I'm a fluent English speaker. Do I get to be an expert in all things related to the English language? My qualifications appear to be analagous to Cole's. IronDuke 22:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

This is the the most absurd reasoning I've ever heard. Yes your a fluent english speaker because it's your first language. The point he's making is that people who are fluent in arabic dispute MEMRIs translations. Try to address the issue instead of trying to divert attention away with nonsense like this and "oh he spelled jew wrong". Seriously are these the best arguments you can muster? annoynmous 02:52, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Really? The most absurd? That you've ever heard? You appear to travel in rarefied circles (i.e., not Wikipedia). So what if English is my first language. Let's say I'm fluent in French, too. How are my qualifications to weigh in on a French to English translation any poorer than Cole's? What if added that I'm a professor of Art History at Yale? My opinion still wouldn't be that notable. And I'm diverting nothing, merely noting that it makes some people uncomfortable (for good reason) when others spell Jew with a small "j." When you refer to reasonable concerns like this as "nonsense," it is you who divert attention. IronDuke 15:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes I think it is absurd that we shouldn't consider the word of people who speak the language fluently and instead trust a partisan advocacy group founded by a ex-IDF member. An yes If you were fluent in French than your opinion would be notable, but were talking about arabic not french. Again it would be nice if we actually addressed the arguments ahead instead of wasting time on diversions like this. annoynmous 16:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Oppose per above, this is getting silly. ALL sources are partisan to one degree or another and MEMRI, just like FOX, Christian Science Monitor, New York Times, and every other source, must be considered on a case-by-case basis. A partisan POV is no bar to being a reliable source. L0b0t (talk) 16:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Agree-The difference is that MEMRI is not a news organization, it is a partisan watchdog group. Also in this case the link MEMRI provides as evidence that he said this is dead. Outside of MEMRI I haven't been able to find a single reliable newspaper that quotes him as saying this. annoynmous 17:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. This makes no sense. It would amount to my saying that if I oppose (for instance) using the Heritage Foundation as a WP reliable source -- because I do not like their POV -- then it should not be allowed as a source; subverting the real intent of WP policy, which is to have a spectrum of views represented through sources. If that approach was taken, WP articles would not represent anything more than the views supported in a WP majority vote. That would transform WP from an encyclopedia into a gigantic blog. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 18:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Memri is indeed a partisan source... it is also a notable source. As such it is reliable as self-published source for statements as to Memri's opinion. However, WP:BLP limits using self-published sources in articles about living people... even for a statement as to the opinion of the source. Blueboar (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Well the difference is that MEMRI doesn't produce any scholarship. You may disagree with it, but The Heritage Foundation produces scholarship. The only thing MEMRI does is watch Broadcasts from the arab world looking for anti-semtic comments. There an advocacy group, not a foundation or a think tank. annoynmous 19:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

It should be said that Bali is referring to a specific example in the Islam and antisemitism article where theres a quote where Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy supposedly states "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs". MEMRI is the only source for this and the link they provide at that there cite to prove this is dead. In this case and I feel in many others MEMRI is not a reliable source. annoynmous 19:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The quality of MEMRI's translations is widely acclaimed. As many of the articles from the Arab media and other statements from Arab public figures are highly embarrassing to hardline Arabists and Islamists, MEMRI's translations have been scrutinized with a fine-toothed comb time and again, in fevered attempts to find fault and thus impugn their credibility as a source. Such attempts have failed. Having withstood the "trial by fire" and having come out of the ordeal unscathed, MEMRI's translations are acceptable for inclusion in Wikipedia articles.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Could you provide some diffs on the "wide acclaim" for the quality of its translations? Up thread i've provided links to a number of scholarly and journalistic sources that consider them unreliable. I can provide more if that would be helpful.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:19, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Why not start by reading the WP article on MEMRI? When you have lib-dems like Thomas A. Friedman and repubs like Jay Nordlinger both commending them, you know that MEMRI must be doing something right.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 17:42, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, as you may know Friedman (who can hail a cab or order kebab in arabic, but that's about it) is unabashedly pro-Israel and critical of Islam generally (most famously he often writes that no influential imam has even condemned terrorism by Moslems, when in fact there is a rather long list of such imams). As for Nordlinger -- doesn't speak a word of Arabic -- and likewise holds similiar views to Friedman in this area. At any rate, both men are opinion columnists. Do you have any citations to offer of Memri being praised for the quality of its translation by fluent arabic speakers or a newspaper/magazine of record on its news pages?Bali ultimate (talk) 17:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Norman Finkelstein - denied tenure by the university at which he was teaching - and an anglophone journalist writing for al-Guardian are hardly qualified to assess the quality of Arabic translations, and even less credible as neutral, objective and disinterested people. It is of course lethally dangerous for Arabs in the Arab world to praise MEMRI, so not surprising that there aren't many who do. However, there have been some expat Arabs who have praised MEMRI's translations. Sorry no photographic memory but one of them might have been Fouad Ajami. I have a life outside Wikipedia and have put as much time into this thread as I am going to. So guys, keep having fun with this, I'm out.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 19:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

No links to offer to support your assertions? Got it (Finkelstein? Who mentioned him?)Bali ultimate (talk) 19:22, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of Finkelstein, MEMRI once realised a heavily edited video of an interview he did on Lebanon's New TV. Since he was speaking in English and the full video was available though, it proved a bit of an own goal. Wodge (talk) 20:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

IMO, MEMRI is a reliable source for claims made by MEMRI, not for statements of fact. In a case like this, and absent another (more NPOV) source, I would want to give the reader some context on what MEMRI is - for example "According to the pro-Israel advocacy group MEMRI..." or maybe "MEMRI has claimed that Tantawi said..." Pretending or implying that MEMRI is a neutral translation service is just not credible, and misleading to readers. --hippo43 (talk) 21:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Our reliable source policy in a nutshell, is that we use reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. MEMRI has a reputation, but not for fact-checking and accuracy. Dlabtot (talk) 19:45, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The translation of material created for Arab propaganda and audience and not intended to be read and discussed in the West is going to be inherently controversial. If a MEMRI translation is cited and there is a significantly different translation, then the two can be neutrally summarized by Wikipedia editors and both can be cited. No judgment about MEMRI's neutrality has to be made. patsw (talk) 03:21, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Journal of Scientific Exploration

This journal is often cited in WP articles about Reincarnation research and Reincarnation. Is it a reliable source? Johnfos (talk) 01:53, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict w/QG) Absolutely not. It is not indexed (a form of "diplomatic" recognition) by scientific search engines like Web of Science and it has sub-standard peer review mechanisms. JSE articles should never be used as citations for fact, only for the opinions of the respective authors iff they are notable. Skinwalker (talk) 02:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Here are some examples that show JSE does not pass the rigors of WP:BLP or WP:RS policy. Editing is based on Wikipedia policy.

1. JSE is a fringe science journal because they attempt to rationalize UFOs while a true skeptic journal publication is critical and/skpetical of UFOs. The journal attempts to rationalize the evidence for the existance of UFOs. Moreover, JSE describes itself as a fringle journal because they assert on their website it is a "critical forum of rationality and observational evidence for the often strange claims at the fringes of science." Saying JSE is a skeptic's journal would entirely be original research. So what is the point? The journal is a "forum" for "rationality" of "the often strange claims at the fringes of science" which would make it a 'fringe science' journal. If any Wikipedian thinks the journal is not a fringe science journal, what kind of journal is it then? The current consensus for the JSE article is for it to remain in the fringe science category. Robert Todd Carroll of the Skeptic's Dictionary[8] stated in part: "In fact, the so-called Association for Skeptical Investigation is a group of pseudo-skeptical paranormal investigators and supporters who do not appreciate criticism of paranormal studies by truly genuine skeptics and critical thinkers. The only skepticism this group promotes is skepticism of critics and criticisms of paranormal studies." He also stated in part: "However, Gary Schwartz, in a published paper, refers to several of the deceased—including William James!—as “departed hypothesized co-investigators,” so perhaps the group considers the spirits of Keen and Truzzi as active investigators.[9] The Society for Scientific Exploration was founded by Marcello Truzzi. The only conclusion demonstrated by the examples is a fringe science journal.
2. If anyone believes the journal is not a fringe science journal, then what type of journal do you believe it is. Moreover, if you believe the journal is not a fringe journal then what is a fringe science journal (A definition of a fringe journal is requested). Please provide specific examples and descriptions of the differences of a fringe science journal versus JSE.
3. If anyone believes JSE is a skeptic organization then please provide examples of JSE being the same as other skeptic organizations.
4. Kauffman is a person and therefore not formally peer-reviewed. We cannot use his asseration on it own face value. Moreover, his notability (or more precisely, lack of notability) is a straw-man argument. Is there even an article on Wikipedia on Kauffman? Per BLP policy, we insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability. Kauffman is not a third-party published source. If you disagree, please explain. When you cannot explain how Kauffman satisfies BLP policy, you (yes, I mean you) have conceded Kauffman is not a reliable third-party published source. This isn't my rule, this is Wikipedia's rule as required by BLP policy. Again, how in the world is Kauffman independant of a third-party published source satsifying to BLP policy. The answer is obvious. He does not satisfy BLP policy. BLP policy drives editing on Wikipedia articles on notable individuals. A couple of editors have asserted in the past but are actually refusing to explain how Kauffman meets BLP policy. You must properly show and not assert based on Wikipedia policy. Again, how does Kauffman specifically meet BLP policy. Please explain by citing BLP policy. Do you agree to abide by BLP policy anyhow.
5. The journal describes itself as a fringe journal on their website. The journal studies fringes which would make it a "fringe science" journal. For example, the journal studies for the rational evidence of UFOs, reincarnation, and crop circles.[10][11][12][13]
6. Moreover, the journal describes themselves as rationalizing "strange claims at the fringes of science." The point is that they "rationalize" the "fringes of science." Thats exactly what a fringe journal does. Please contact them directly. In fact, the journal is proud of being a fringe science journal. See what they will tell you about themselves. What is scientific about crop circles? Hmmm. The journal studies the so-called science of crop circles made by UFOs. Everything the journal does is obviously on the "fringes of science." Therefore, it is clearly a fringe science journal when they are a forum to "rationalize" the "fringes of science." For example, it is a group inclined toward belief in paranormal phenomena.[14] The fringe journal clearly fails the rigors of WP:BLP because it is not a third-party source. While Barrett criticizes various forms of alternative medicine topics, JSE attempts to rationalize alternative medical practices.[15]
7. This is an example of how the term peer-reviewed can easily be misused or misunderstood. The JSE is reviewed by a minority group of fringe supporters. This minority group who share the same fringe ideology, without any review from dissent, falls into the category of reviewed by true believers of the so-called rationale fringe of true believers and their self-serving bias. They are fringe supporters because they attempt to rationalize such things as UFOs. For further information about how JSE portrays themselves, please visit the website.
8. See: Journal of Scientific Exploration. JSE is subject to review "at the discretion of the Editor-in-Chief." If the paper is accepted "but there remain points of disagreement between authors and referee(s), the reviewer(s) may be given the option of having their opinion(s) published..." The journal clearly is subject to the discretion of a single person which is the Editor-in-Chief. Therefore, the journal clearly publishes opinions without always having editorial review. Furthmore, the journal is reviewed by a small group of fringe supporters who attempt to rationalize such things as UFOs at "the fringes of science."
9. The journal represents unconventional views. For example: In established disciplines, concordance with accepted disciplinary paradigms is the chief guide in evaluating material for scholarly publication. On the matters of interest to the Society for Scientific Exploration, however, consensus does not prevail. Therefore the Journal of Scientific Exploration necessarily publishes claimed observations and proffered explanations that will seem more speculative or less plausible than in some mainstream disciplinary journals. See Refereeing at the JSE article. The Scope of research is at the fringes of science. When reviweing the Journal of Scientific Exploration page, this journal is in the fringe science journal category.
10. Per WEIGHT: We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well. If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not. Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.

QuackGuru (talk) 02:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that Proof by verbosity. I think an apt summary of your argument might be WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The fact that the word 'skeptic' has been usurped and perverted by the Church of the pseudoskeptic is no reason to launch such an incoherent attack on JSE. There are a great many journals that are not in the Web Of Science, and there has been research published that show it suffers from publication bias. I would imagine that CSICOP is not in the web of science either. I have no idea why you invoke Barrett and Kaufmann here. Their editorial review process is hardly worse than that of Quackwatch. In any case, I think that inline attribution is always the best way to go, doesn't matter if it is quackwatch, JSE, JAMA or Aristotle; 'It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it'. As for what comprises a 'true skeptic' (even if no true scotsman):

"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite."

- Bertrand Russell (from "Skeptical Essays", 1928) Unomi (talk) 02:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

As an aside but intriguingly:

"We must be content, then, in speaking of such subjects and with such premises to indicate the truth roughly and in outline, and in speaking about things which are only for the most part true and with premises of the same kind to reach conclusions that are not better. In the same spirit, therefore, should each type of statement be received; for it is the mark of an educated man to look for precision in each class of things just so far as the nature of the subject admits; it is evidently equally foolish to accept probable reasoning from a mathematician and to demand from a rhetorician scientific proofs. (pg. 340 Great Books of the Western World N. 9 Aristotle II Robert Translated by W.D. Ross Maynard Hutchins, Ed. in Chief, 1952)

Which I suppose speaks to WP:PARITY Unomi (talk) 02:59, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

An example from the reincarnation research page: Stevenson's research into birthmarks and congenital defects has particular importance, since it furnishes graphic evidence suggestive of reincarnation, superior to the (often fragmentary) memories and reports of the children and adults questioned, which even if verified afterwards probably cannot be assigned the same value in scientific terms. Note how the statement implies that birthmark evidence actually has "value in scientific terms". The question is whether the JSE is reliable enough for these kinds of objective assessments. Vesal (talk) 21:05, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

For the purposes of being a source of information - yes the JSE is a reliable source. For being a reliable source for scientific statement - no - it's considered to be a fringe journal. FWIW Quackguru provided a detailed list of why it doesn't meet WPs policy in the context of scientific literature. Shot info (talk) 02:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely not, except for opinions of authors as noted above. - Eldereft (cont.) 05:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Portland, OR blogger a Reliable source about minimally-covered Portland news?

Got a question about whether a blog source is an appropriate reference given its particular subject.

Background: I recently created and greatly expanded an article about Tom Peterson, a once-prominent retailer and TV pitchman in Portland, Oregon. Within the past few weeks, the final Tom Peterson's store has closed.

Sources: The best coverage of this comes from Another Portland Blog[16] by a Portland writer named Brandon Hartley. (As a point of full disclosure, the author is also a friend of mine, which is another reason I'm seeking comment.) This report was subsequently linked by the Willamette Week's news blog[17]. The closure had been previously reported by another blogger d/b/a The Zehnkatzen Times[18], whose photos I had previously obtained permission to use in the article and who has posted images of the store with a "for lease" sign outside.

My thinking: Willamette Week is the most obvious RS, but the reporting came from the two blogs. It seems to me that Mr. Hartley should satisfy WP:SPS, as "an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" because Mr. Hartley had previously written for Willamette Week about Portland news and culture (see: [19], [20], [21], [22], [23]).

Should Mr. Hartley's blog post count, or perhaps should one of the others? Looking for a second opinion. Cheers, WWB (talk) 20:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, never mind in the specific: over the weekend, the closing was in fact reported by The Oregonian, Portland's daily newspaper. That said, I still wonder in the general, whether Another Portland Blog might be considered an RS when it reports on Portland news, given the author's previous writings for the Willamette Week. Cheers, WWB (talk) 21:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I would say he can be considered an expert, although it's not a slam dunk. Just don't use him for anything controversial. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 19:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Peregrine -- it would depend a lot (entirely?) on the specific facts being cited.

A few notes -- ZehnKatzen Times blog is in fact published by a Wikipedian and member of WP:ORE, if anybody wants to get in touch with him he's pretty accessible. Not too active on WP these days I think. And, in the example outlined, I believe the fact that WW republished the facts originally reported on the blog would satisfy WP:RS; WW effectively "vetted" him as a RS by whatever its editorial/fact-checking process is.

Personally, I HATE that WW is the example being used for this, as they are about the least reliable of Portland media...but for the most part, WW still qualifies as WP:RS.

Finally, and most importantly...thanks WWB for working on that article, and for bringing up good questions here! -Pete (talk) 20:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Self published book as source

I found a book called Erwin Ay, Rettende Ufer: Von Ostpreußen nach Dänemark, BoD – Books on Demand, 2005

Books on Demand Gmbh is a a German print-on-demand publisher.To the extent of my knowledge they don't do any editorial reviews at all. Am I correct that this would classify as self-published and thus unreliable ? Neither of the two authors shows up as expert on the subject in my searches, in fact they are almonst unknown besides the book--Molobo (talk) 08:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

If what you say is true, then it is not reliable. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 19:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Bentham Science Publishers / The Open Chemical Physics Journal

There is an ongoing and highly controversial discussion going on about whether the journals published by Bentham Science Publishers, and The Open Chemical Physics Journal in particular, are reliable sources or not.

An important point of disagreement is whether the journal is peer-reviewed or should be considered a "vanity publication", similar to self-published material.

The discussion on Bentham Science Publishers takes place in the context of general disagreements on the content of 9/11-related articles. This is an environment which is clearly not conducive to reach a consensus if only users directly involved in the editing process of these articles are involved.

The Open Chemical Physics Journal has already been discussed on this page earlier, but the discussion was brief and inconclusive. --Cs32en (talk) 10:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Palestine Think Tank

This year old web site has three editors listed here and does accept admissions mentioned here. It has been assumed the editors don't edit each other. Gilad Atzmon is one of the editors. Three related questions:

• One editor wants to use an article where Atzmon presents a claim one or more individuals are racist and the article’s title mentions one person by name. I assume that nothing from that article can be used.
• However, this editor insists on using just one sentence from that article, which out of the context of Atzon charging others with racism looks worse than it does in context. Which seems to me cherry picking a primary source to an extreme POV. (Long talk page discussion here.)
• It should be noted that this editor has been sanctioned once and warned on this article[24][25], including for insulting other editors.
  

I brought this to WP:BLPN and only one neutral person replied and he was ambivalent. Any more definitive answers? CarolMooreDC (talk) 13:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The website is clearly not a reliable source as to matters of fact. No editorial controls, clearly has a very strong POV on the issues it writes about. It's an advocacy group. Atzmon's opinions about others may be notable sometimes (always must be attributed as such) depending on his prominence and connection to the issue he's opining on. He's some kind of anti-zionist israeli, right? I agree with you carrol that if Atzmon is used at all and there is a context in which he's describing a whole bunch of people as racists, that context should be included.Bali ultimate (talk) 13:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

He starts by accusing two people of racism, with one rather compelling quote as evidence, and then makes one of his typically overly broad generalizations, but one which grows only out of context of the larger article. I'm against using any thing from article as being vs. BLP myself. CarolMooreDC (talk) 13:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Canadian Government Chemtrail Petition response

I found an interesting canadian government response at http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/response-en.html but am unsure if it is real. I also found a related link [26] in which a petition regarding high altitude spraying is presented. "Mr. Speaker, I am presenting a petition on behalf of Mr. Brian Holmes of Ontario regarding aerial spraying. Mr. Holmes has collected signatures from across the country from concerned Canadians who believe that chemicals used in aerial sprayings are adversely affecting the health of Canadians.

The petitioners call upon Parliament to stop this type of high altitude spraying. The petition has been duly certified by the clerk and I present it at this time.

I can't seem to find a response, perhaps someone can find it. I am mainly looking to see if the canadian government response provided at http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/response-en.html is real. Thanks!Smallman12q (talk) 20:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Youtube

Can youtube videos be used as references? I don't think so, but just for re-assurance.--gordonrox24 (talk) 20:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

No. Not WP:RS.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

If it contains WP:RS references to support its content, it may be reliable, and the original sources should be referenced as well. Watch out for forged or manipulated stuff. --Cs32en (talk) 21:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Only if the article is about a particularly notable video.Smallman12q (talk) 23:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

It should generally be avoided (especially copyrighted content). The only excpetions that I can see is that the article itself is about the video, or the video is truly authentic and reliable (such as a presidential candidate's or congressman's channel).Smallman12q (talk) 23:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Most Youtube videos are not reliable ... but occasional exceptions have been made. Blueboar (talk) 00:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

This has come up before and my understanding is that YouTube videos are never considered a reliable source with one exception. [27] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

If the video is uploaded by a reliable source. i.e. the reliable source's site claims authorship of and links to the video. Otherwise, it would have to be either a primary source in an article or section discussing the video, or self-published by an expert. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

How do you know that it's a valid primary source? Anyone can create a YouTube account that claims to be someone else. I could easily create an account named "Stephen Hawking" and then upload videos about how Big Bang is a bunch of BS and that Young Earth Creationism has scientific validity. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

You have to research it. For a "Stephen Hawking" account, you should probably go to SHs official site (if he has one) and see if he links to an official youtube channel, or whatever. Although by percentage youtube has very little RSs, in total they have tons. A lot of very reputable news orgs have channels, for instance. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

That was my point. If a reliable source's site fails to claim authorship of and link to the video, it doesn't automatically become a primary source or self-published by an expert. You still have to verify it's authenticity. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:25, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Very well said, Peregrine. I agree completely. (i.e., the question shouldn't be "is it on Youtube" -- immaterial, YouTube is not a "publisher" in the traditional sense -- instead, the question should be "who published it." If the New York Times publishes a video on YouTube, it should carry the same RS validity that a NY Times print article would. No more, no less. (And I'm not sure what Smallman's getting at about copyright.) -Pete (talk) 04:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Here's how I think the copyright issue works. If a random user posts a clip from NBC news, for example (assuming NBC news isn't on YouTube in an official way, I don't know), you can still use it as a reference, but you must attribute it to NBC news, and you cannot link to the youtube clip, becuase the clip is a copyright violation. Basically, I wouldn't tell someone not go to youtube because it has copyright violations (that's up to them), but I would say don't link to one on wikipedia (per our rules). - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 05:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Peregrine, I've heard people make that argument around here before, and I think it's silly. Wikipedia chooses to be very strict about fair use in its own content, which is fine and totally justified. But fair use has been around for a long time. My understanding (and I of course concede that IANAL) is that by and large, a "copyvio" that is not the subject of a takedown letter or a court order is pretty darn tough to distinguish from an instance of fair use. For the most part, a link to a copyvio is dealt with by a takedown letter. What does Wikipedia do if it's served with a takedown letter? Remove the link! (And what would accompany that letter? Probably a letter to the YouTube account holder, too!) This, as far as I can tell, is a far cry from "intellectual property apocalypse 2009."

So I really don't understand why we should run in fear if somebody links to a 5 minute news clip that's uploaded by an end user. In the event that the news organization fails to get the clip removed from YouTube, and requests that Wikipedia remove the link, we should be congenial and responsive; but in the absence of that kind of scenario, I think a ban on "potentially copyvio" YouTube clips even being linked from Wikipedia reflects an overly nervous view of what it is we're doing here -- which is providing information, and often easy access to the sources of that information, to our readers. -Pete (talk) 05:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree, and apparently Wikipedia:External links/YouTube failed. But, Wikipedia:External links#Restrictions on linking has some of the strongest wording against it I've seen in a guideline. Basically, I'm not making my statements per my opinion, but per my experience with "The rules^TM". Flying Spaghetti Monster grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 06:06, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

:) -Pete (talk)

I completely agree. I think we have to start getting over this near-stereotype that floats often on wikipedia that Youtube by default is not RS. We already have plenty of news organizations like the Association Press, BBC World News, CBS News, CNN... Much of the traditional publishers and news organizations are increasingly focusing on their on-line networks, while many are moving their entire publishing system on-line. This is a trend that will continue and growth, so YouTube is inevitably continue to be more relevant and important publishing tool. Do U(knome)? ^yes..._{or no} 05:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

There is, of cource, another reason why it is not RS. By its nature, Youtube is not archived, as many websites are, so that what is used as a source today may be altered, amended, changed, edited or deleted at any time, without any archive to refer to. It is, at best, an ephemeral source. Books, newspapers and the like are "fixed in time", and even websites can be waybacked generally. Many videos, as a point of fact, are edited heavily -- making use as a source quite problematic at step one. Many are deleted as copyright violations. Many simply do not reflect actual events except as seen through the eyes of their uploader and editor. Collect (talk) 10:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Generally speaking, most Youtube videos are not reliable; but there are exceptions when you get to specific videos posted by otherwise very reliable sources. I would agree that the specifics of who posted the video is a key factor in this... if a reliable source such as the BBC posted a news clip on Youtube, we can probably consider it reliable (the hesitation being that we would need to verify that it was in fact posted by the BBC.) If, however, Joe Blow recorded the same BBC news clip, and posted it to Youtube, it would not be reliable. We have no guarentee that Joe Blow did not manipulate or edit the clip prior to posting.

Also, chances are, if someone like the BBC posted a clip to Youtube, the clip would also be available on the BBC website, and that would be a better link to use. Blueboar (talk) 12:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

This is not something we can decide formulaically. WP:RS says explicitly: "How reliable a source is depends on context."

In discussions like this one, I think some people tend to gravitate toward the most extreme examples. It's important to account for the extremes, but for the vast majority of facts documented on Wikipedia, it's preposterous to think that somebody would go to the extent of falsifying a video in order to deceive the public.

For instance, suppose a dam was demolished, and the only reliable source that can be readily found is a news clip from a local network affiliate, with video footage of the demolition, and brief interview clips from the CEO of the power company and local environmental leaders. The video clip was uploaded by an unknown party. Other sources refer to the dam being there one year, and not being there the next, but none has been found that explicitly says that the dam was blown up.

Barring other factors, that video clip would be a fine source to support the fact that the dam was blown up. Is it possible that somebody could falsify an entire TV report to deceive the public? Yes. But is it plausible in this example? No.

There are cases where it might be plausible -- if there was some advocacy group, for instance, that was making the case that the government or some other party was trying to fool the public about the destruction of the dam. In that case, we would need a more solid source.

Also, this source would not be acceptable to support a more significant claim -- say, if the reporter in the news report said "the dam's output, which was enough to power 200 homes, will be replaced by 1000 windmills on a new wind farm" Two reasons: first, a local TV reporter might not be considered expert enough on such matters. But second, it is plausible that somebody might falsify a small section of a video clip, to make a politically-motivated claim to mislead the public.

The point I'm trying to make in this example is that every use of every source requires editorial judgment, and a formulaic approach does not serve purpose of writing a high-quality encyclopedia. Should the use of YouTube videos that are uploaded by unknown parties be discouraged in most cases? Possibly. But should they be banned outright as failing WP:RS? Absolutely not. -Pete (talk) 16:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I am looking for references for an article about an online game. Would a video uploaded by the developers of the game showing features of the game be suitable, or would that be considered promotional and or not third party?--gordonrox24 (talk)

My thought is "most likely not," especially if there is a need to establish notability. But if you'd like a more considered opinion, feel free to share the article and video, and I'll take a closer look. -Pete (talk) 00:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd say a Youtube video posted by the publisher would be a primary source. You can certainly cite it (just as you can their homepage) but it adds nothing to notability concerns. But doing so might well help the article and shouldn't be avoided just because it's YouTube (rather than hosted on the publisher's own site). Hobit (talk) 03:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Notability is not something I've studied too closely, but as far as video games go, there are several published, third-party magazines which can be found on any news stand regarding this topic. GamePro, Game Informer, Computer and Video Games and PC Gamer come to mind. Unless this is some obscure game, these magazines would have covered the game and they and can be used to establish notability. The problem with a video uploaded by the developers is that would be considered promotional. It might be acceptable as an external link, I'm not sure. If you're looking for a video for the game, I would think a video made by G4TV would be acceptable and you can link directly to their site and bypass YouTube completely. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, there's the WP:RS guideline, but there are also considerations that are specific to coverage of video games. If you haven't already, you might want to check in with the good folks at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games to see what their thoughts are. -Pete (talk) 00:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok thanks guys!--gordonrox24 (talk) 10:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Suitable for Reference?

is this website considered a notable and reliable reference for Wikipedia? It looks like a blog, so I am not sure. Thanks!--gordonrox24 (talk) 16:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I think there is a terminology issue here, the question is not if the website is notable, the question is, is it considered reliable for the purpose of sourcing a different article. --82.7.40.7 (talk) 10:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

True. I am changing the title to better represent the question asked.--gordonrox24 (talk) 13:48, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a guideline proposal on blogs as WP:RS at WP:BLOGS. It also includes some text from establishes WP policy project pages. --Cs32en (talk) 21:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the page in question, it certainly seems to be someone's personal (ie self-published) blog. As such, I don't see anything that would make it reliable... but if the author is a recognized expert on what he is writing about, then an exception might be made. Please see WP:SPS for more guidance on how self-published sources (such as blogs) should and should not be used. Blueboar (talk) 12:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Bluboar. That just re-reinforces what I thought.--gordonrox24 (talk) 21:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Human needs and gravity strength or earths status itself

Humans have a lot of needs, obviously. When we need something, we go out and get it. It can be one individuals needs, or even a whole demographics of a nation. Needs, like to help us maintain ourselves. To be decent in lifestyle. To acquire the various needs of humans, and other species that serve humans, we need a cycle. A habit, to maintain ourselves.

One mass production of human needs is the technology. The way we acquire base metals, and precious jewelery for our bodies. We invent enormous machines that weigh over tons, and relocate enormous amounts of weight to get to the element that we are interested in. Thus, the webpage that explains the gravity, proves to itself that humans are indeed, creating a change on the surface of the earth, because we are changing the flow of gravity, via depleting oil reserves, mining out the precious elements that once were underground; which ultimately changes the weather as we know it, making it even more intense, faster and stronger.

Assuming the thickness of the earth crust and the 'humans' scratching the surface is not important, because of the whole density and weight, and layer makeup, is very dangerous in my opinion. Even the smallest change can have an enormous outcome in difference. Any feedback is welcomed, as I think we need to work together to get the big picture correctly in our mindset.

I think you want the Help desk. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 19:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Haha. That was mean! ;) Do U(knome)? ^yes..._{or no} 11:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Video interview from a blog

Hello everyone, I have a particularly frustrating situation here. Okay, here's the story: voice actress Jennifer Hale purportedly voices a character named Samus Aran in the Metroid Prime trilogy of video games. I say 'purportedly' because there were no reliable sources to support this, only dubious ones like the IMDb, until this video interview with Hale was conducted by a blogger named Sadie a.k.a. "UltraNeko" and placed on her (Sadie's) blog late last year. She has performed several other interviews with voice actors, as well as other people in the video game industry. Within the video interview, Jennifer Hale confirms she voiced Samus (it's at about 2:10 into the video). So, I added that information to the Samus Aran and Jennifer Hale articles and used the video interview as the source, but a user named Gary King removed the information, stating the video isn't reliable because "the person in a video might not necessarily be who they say they are". Is that reasonable? Because to claim that one of Sadie's interviews isn't authentic is to claim they're all inauthentic. These voice actors look like themselves, and they even perform their characters' voices within the interviews.

At Gary King's request, I brought this to a user named Ealdgyth and she agreed with him that the video interview isn't reliable enough. But the fact still stands that Jennifer Hale confirmed she voiced Samus and I have the video to prove it. The interviews are definitely authentic, so why can't they be used? Or can they? Thanks to anyone that responds. -sesuPRIME ^{talk • contribs} 09:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

All reliable sources have two inter-related components... the author has to be reliable, and the publisher has to be reputable (another way of saying reliable). The best sources (such as articles in peer reviewed academic journals) are strong on both components. However, for some topic areas (videogames being a prime example) we often have a problem because there are no sources of this quality. We often get reliable authors (such as game designers) making statements in unreliable publications (such as a blog or web forum). This is the situation you are facing... Ms. Hale is the author of her own statements, and Sadie's blog is the publisher of those statements. While Ms. Hale is a reliable "author", Sadie's blog is not a reputable (ie reliable) "publisher". Blueboar (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Hey thanks for responding, Blueboar. I understand the importance of citing reliable sources, but this isn't a case of "some random blogger says Jennifer Hale voiced Samus, so let's use it as a source." Of course that wouldn't be considered reliable. This is a case of "Hale acknowledges she voiced Samus on video", so why does it matter who shot the video or where it's hosted? -sesuPRIME ^{talk • contribs} 02:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Sesu Prime. We are getting into process wonkery to say that a video of a person saying something non-controversial isn't a reasonable source of what that person said. Given that this "publisher" has a reputation for doing exactly these kind of interviews, I'd call it an acceptable source unless someone expresses a basis for believing otherwise. That this is in a WP:BLP makes it more of an issue, but I just don't see the problem here. Hobit (talk) 15:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Referencing template data

What is the correct way to reference data in a navigation template? Say, a bottom bpx listing the holders of a world record in X must, I suppose, provide source for numbers and names (they are debatable), but where ? talkpage ? NVO (talk) 10:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Given that it's a navigation template to related articles, I think the source should be present at the related article in question. Do U(knome)? ^yes..._{or no} 11:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it same as citing wikipedia? Related articles aren't written by a single person and are not frozen in time, so their references may contradict each other and their common template. NVO (talk) 15:12, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm pretty sure most navigation templates have "centralized article" where all sources are collected and used. In the case you were describing, there is the World record progression 100 metres men. Do U(knome)? ^yes..._{or no} 10:30, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

One day, when the crisis or something worse will idle me down for a couple years I might just tackle the "centralized article", but today it just does not exist. In some cases, i.e. {{Nikon DSLR cameras}} centralized articles won't exist in the foreseeable future (btw, here's an example of referenced but not sourced template and a lot of relevant discussion on talk page). I was really looking for a policy-based, general reasoning. NVO (talk) 12:59, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

In this case, I would suggest that you not put citations and references in the navigation template, but instead make sure that the information presented in the template is discussed and referenced in each of the seperate articles for the various Nikon camera models listed. Blueboar (talk) 13:14, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Since neither navigation templates nor categories provide an obvious means for adding references, the common sense principle to allow would be to include only content that is (1) obvious from reading the linked article(s), and (2) is either sourced there or is indisputable. Of course, if one or two sources suffice for referencing all the content in a template; those sources can be added as footnotes in the template, just as we sometimes do for infoboxes. Abecedare (talk) 19:57, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Referencing a non instaneously available US Government documents as neutral outside source

I was approached by customers to add references to our wiki page. The page is Mount Pleasant Winery. I was approached on listing label references for bottles of wine that were produced by our company and a previous company that used the name Mount Pleasant Winery. Since I am an interested party of one of the companies, I needed to find a reference from a neutral, outside source.

All wine labels, bottle silk screenings or verbage put on a wine bottle for sale must have the approval of the US government. An application is made and the government approves the label or it rejects it. These filings then become public record. If approved, the government issues a Certificate of Label Approval (COLA). I wished to cite COLAs as references. The current agency that approves these applications and authorizes the use of the label is the Trade and Tariffs Bureau (commonly the TTB), United States Department of Treasury. It was previously the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and refered to as the ATF. It assigns it a TTB ID number from its form TTB F 5100.31. The filings are not readily available over the internet but can be attained through containing the TTB by anyone. Does refering to this filing as proof of the label verbage constitute a verifiable source? Is the TTB a reliable source? Is the TTB considered a third party reference? Please give reasons why or why not.

If so, how should the reference be listed, or how should it appear? If not, what reference could satisify the basic verifability and reliability of what verbage is on the bottles?

We have had someone edit the page which deleted the listing of the labels explaining that "source cited does not reference this." After contacted said editor, said editor claimed that s/he contact a family member who works for the TTB within eleven minutes of the posting of the references and claimed that they were unable to verify the references. After discussing with said editor, it appears that the reasoning for the edit is

"It is a very common occurrence that material of questionable or insanely hard to verify sources are quite often beyond the scope of what is appropriate for an encyclopedia. We see this often in WP:BLPs where someone wants to insert some very personal information from court documents."

Examining the first part of the argument, it is not a three minute reference check. It took me days to get the COLAs of the previous company. Since the references are not instaneously available, it could be successfully argued that the TTB reference is not easily verifiable until the TTB gets this information into an on line form. However, this argument could preclude enormous amounts of material for thousands of references across the internet. It does ask an interesting question of how long of wait determines "insanely hard" to verify sources, which I do not have an answer.

Examining the second argument, a court document, such as a witness on the stand that says "Sam stole from Bob" cannot be used a reference for saying that "Sam stole from Bob." However, a decisive action such as court ruling where Sam was found guilty of stealing from Bob could be a reference for saying that "Sam stole from Bob." I think that using this template shows that a decisive action, such as the Government issuing the COLA can be then used to state that the verbage does appear on the bottle.

The editor then goes onto to try to discount the entire reason for the reference itself stating that the content of the article was not proper, but this does not constitute the question that is being asked, nor is it a listed reason for the original edit. I ask that we contain this topic solely to reference question and the question of whether listcruft is for another topic of discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mowineguy (talk • contribs) 01:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Informational note: The article in question is Mount Pleasant Winery and the source that was questioned is "United States Department of the Treasury: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms filing 8808; Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms Certificate of Label Approval filing 00011880154,9725800000218,01211000000040,02192000000102; Tariffs and Trade Bureau Certificate of Label Approval 03132000000171,04054000000101,05062000000160,06258000000063,07248000000065,08018000000075". --Orlady (talk) 02:20, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

US government documents typically are reliable sources, but Without seeing this source, it is difficult to comment on what it could be a reliable source for. Also note that this is a primary source. Primary sources must be used with care, if they are used at all. Regardless, I think the question of the reliability of the source is moot, as the year-by-year list of Mount Pleasant's novelty/commemorative wine labels seems like a collection of trivia -- not content that belongs in an encyclopedia. --Orlady (talk) 02:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a few other issues. The article had been tagged for not citing references. An article must have at least a couple references from secondary sources, meaning books, magazines, etc to show notability, otherwise editors might nominate it for deletion. Something like the COLA record would be a primary source. It may show that the winery exists, and might be usable for information about the artwork on the bottle, but you need secondary soruces to show notability on Wikipedia. Written into the article it says it was reviewed very well in Wine Enthusiast and was used in at least two World Series celebrations, which must have been mentioned in at least some newspapers. Look those up, and you'll have some secondary-source cites. Squidfryerchef (talk) 03:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Now as far as whether a COLA meets WP:V, our policy for verifiability, I'm not sure. The fact that there's an ID number helps. Not sure which citation template best fits this situation, but that's a number that could be used where an ISBN or OCLC would normally go. But if this is something that requires a lot of letter writing to get, a FOIA request, or visits to a goverment agency, I don't know if that meets WP:V. If it's available in libraries ( some college libraries are designated as "repositories" for government documents, and if the BATF publishes some bulletin of recently granted COLAs ) that's one way to establish verifiablity. Another way would be if the agency itself made the records themselves online. A third would be if a credible organization obtained the records and made them available in print or online. There might also exist specialized paid databases of COLAs that are used in the wine business, but if theyre difficult enough to get access to they might not meet WP:V. Squidfryerchef (talk) 03:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

As for the issue of whether primary sources can be used at all, I think theyre great when theyre used properly. Wikipedia isn't just something for grade-school kids to use for book reports about dinosaurs. When I need information on something, I want a Wikipedia that digs deep. There's a wealth of information sitting there in patent filings, obscure academic journals, etc that could be used to strengthen our articles. The argument about "obscure public information" has come up before, but in the context of people, for example it is improper to publish addresses of movie stars from public records. But that doesn't apply here. The bigger issue is what editors here call "undue weight". Magazines that have reviewed the wine which haven't been cited yet, why should the first citation be on a highly technical matter? I'd say hold off on the COLA and look into other cites. Squidfryerchef (talk) 03:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

If the only issue was what is written on the wine-bottle labels, one could look at the bottles themselves and write that in the article. That would likely comply with verifiability (especially since the wine bottles seem to be more accessible than the COLA filings), but would be considered undue unless some secondary source has thought the information noteworthy enough to report; I don't see how the TTB document gets over the undue problem.

Currently the article lacks any evidence of "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject" as required by wikipedia guidelines. The only reference is a trivial mention in a Boston Globe article ("This is like an alternate reality," said Sox owner John W. Henry, soaked in champagne (Mount Pleasant, 2003 Brut Imperial). All of our fans waited their entire lives for this." [28]). So I second Squifryerchef in recommended that editors' efforts would be better spent looking for secondary sources that establish notability; else the article is unlikely to survive an AFD nomination. Abecedare (talk) 03:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

No, the TTB document is the undue problem. If there was a debate over the wine label itself then it would be important to cite the COLA. I think the Globe article is OK, though the reviews in wine magazines are more important. It may be a brief mention, but a Major League ball club can choose any wine to celebrate winning the World Series with. That they chose this particular wine says something. Squidfryerchef (talk) 01:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Bernama (Malaysian National News Agency)

Controversy has arisen in the Matthias Rath article as to whether Bernama, the Malaysian National News Agency, is a reliable source or not. In particular, a number of editors, including myself, feel that material from the first sentence in the news report at [29] could be used in the article’s intro, either right after, or just before the statement about The Sunday Times (Johannesburg), the text from which is taken from the sixteenth and seventeenth sentences of the piece at [30] I would therefore appreciate some expert advice re. this issue. Many thanks. Caseoccur (talk) 13:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's RS. Squidfryerchef (talk) 18:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Den of Geek

Is the website Den of Geek a reliable source for information, reviews and commentary on science fiction movies, television, etc.? It might be considered a blog and hence a SPS, but it's owned and operated by Dennis Publishing (see here). What's the current consensus about professionally published pop-culture websites like this? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The same publisher that prints Maxim, Fortean Times, MacUser, etc. Shouldn't be any problem with this. Squidfryerchef (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Robert K. Crane discovery of cotransport leading directly to ORT

The primary editor of this article made the claim that Crane's discovery led directly to the development of ORT. I personally think this is an overstatement (and have some evidence to support my view, please see the talk page for the article). This claim was supported by current references 6 & 7. ref 6 is an article where Crane himself is stating how central his role was in the development of ORT. I don't feel this is reliable because he has a clear bias and a self-referencing reference is a bit dubious (this is a live-person bio, after all). The NEJM article cited in ref 7 is a scientific medical article that is explaining the role, if any, of bismuth for diarrhea. The opening sentence of the article directly supports this claim, however I feel this is a situation where the author of the NEJM article is not an expert in the point being discussed. The NEJM author is not an expert in the history of ORT, but an expert in the science being presented. For this reason, I feel the source is not reliable as the author is in error making an unverified claim. The reference that the NEJM article presents to support the first line only deals with the impact of ORT (which is not in question), and not the history of ORT, further weakening the claim. I am asking for independent opinions on this issue. Thanks! Chaldor (talk) 20:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

World of Greyhawk

I am developing a rewrite of the article on the World of Greyhawk Dungeons and Dragons campaign setting. The creator of Greyhawk, Gary Gygax, was invited by the D&D website ENWorld (http://enworld.org) to answer user's questions about his life and work in an open-ended forum. This ongoing forum, in which Gygax used the handle "Col Pladoh", lasted until Gygax's death in March 2008. The hundreds of pages of Q&A have been archived at http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/. These archives are a valuable source of information about the earliest days of Greyhawk and how it evolved, and contain much information that does not appear in either published interviews with Gygax or in any of his written work. Given that it was ENWorld that invited Gygax to the forum, granted him forum admin status, the forum lasted for 6 years, and has been archived, can this could be considered a reliable on-line resource? We are currently discussing this question at WikiProject: Dungeons & Dragons, where I have set out the above arguments in more detail.Guinness323 (talk) 22:17, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm familiar with this as I followed his posts on enworld. I don't think there is any doubt it was him making the posts and I'd treat this just as we'd treat a blog or authors' notes by any famous writer. We can rely on them, but they are of no use for notability purposes. But I'm "involved" and would welcome other opinions. Hobit (talk) 12:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

If it is verifiable (by reference in a reliable third party source) that Gygax was "Col Pladoh", then I would say his comments from the forum can be used. If not, no. Blueboar (talk) 13:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Found it: An Gygax interview with KCGeek in 2003 where Gygax said: "I hit EN World as Col_Pladoh. I also post a lot on the www.lejendary.com boards, and on the MSN Lejendary Adventure Community, and www.dragonsfoot.org ones about once a week." (edited transcript at http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/03/04/dungeons-dragons-cre.html, complete interview archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20031204163509/www.kcgeek.com/archives/interviews/mordenkainens_fantastic_interview/031302.html)

Very iffy... you are essentially using one type of unreliable source (KCGeek's blog) to verify another (a "anonimous" forum posting). The problem is (obviously) that these are in all likelihood the best sources you will be able to get. I would say that you can go ahead and cite Col Pladoh's comments on the enworld forum, and if someone objects, I would say this situation calls for a judicious invocation of WP:IAR. Blueboar (talk) 18:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm an involved party as well, but it's clear to me that it really was Gygax. I would say use it per WP:SPS. Basically no controversial BLP info, which I don't think is a problem in this case. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 18:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

IRMEP

Is the Institute for Research Middle Eastern Policy(IRMEP)[31],[32] a reliable source for accusations of terrorism ? See : Charities accused of ties to terrorism. In fact, could it be considered a RS for anything related to the middle east and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Tundrabuggy (talk) 22:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Migraine Associated Vertigo

There is a discussion on Migraine Associated Vertigo about whether or not http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/ is a reliable source. The site is published by Timothy C. Hain, a doctor who focuses on neurology and who teaches at Northwestern. A partial list of his publications appears on http://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/nupthms/faculty/hain.html and shows that he has repeatedly published papers in this field. Per WP:SPS, is dizziness-and-balance.com an acceptable source? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 02:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

As above website is a patient info site of a doctors office and clearly commercial in nature, makes appointments etc., I prefer to have the article cited to Dr. Hain's peer reviewed publications including PMIDs, which should be no problem if everything is as claimed. A pubmed search doesn't yield many publications of his.

Should not enough such material arise from a pubmed search, I prefer to have the article sourced to high quality secondary sources, representing the mainstream contemporary medical opinion on the topic.

I think the standards are discussed well enough at WP:MEDMOS.

I don't want to read medical articles which are narrowly sourced to the multiple web sites of a practitioner. (even if he is god-knows what of a capacity, just take neutral peer reviewed publications)

From the article I had already to remove several misleading statements about the alleged dangerous side effects of main stream medications, and I want to prevent that fringe science opinion finds its place here.

70.137.153.83 (talk) 03:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The applicable guidelines are to be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources_(medicine-related_articles)

70.137.153.83 (talk) 04:33, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

There is an ongoing discussion at Talk:Migraine Associated Vertigo#Page blanking as well as on here. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 04:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with 70.137 here. The dizziness-and-balance.com site is a great place for information and links to authoritative sources, but I wouldn't use it as a reliable source for medical information. In the artice under question, the .com site is referenced extensively, but that page appears to be a compilation of facts from primary literature. If that's the case, there should be no problem backing up every claim with that found in the medical literature (assuming of course the claims are actually supported). Instead of citing the .com page, I would recommend looking up the articles cited in the dizziness-and-balance.com site and reference those based on the content found there. I wouldn't trust someone else's interpretation of the medical literature, particularly when there might be a commercial bias present. If the doctor in question is an expert, cite his peer-reviewed articles, not a website under his sole control (that is not under peer-review). Additionally, I could understand one reference to the site if it was all that necessary, but using it for seven references as it currently stands fails WP:SELFPUB. Let the medical, peer-reviewed literature stand for itself. Cite that, not the .com site. No one has to speak for the journal articles. Chaldor (talk) 10:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Fair enough. I wasn't the one who readded the refs the second time, so we should probably go through and ditch a bunch of them. Thanks for clearing this up. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 12:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

• For some reason there was not notice of this discussion on the talk page of the article on question or the talk pages of the editors, either. Since I have just recently been made aware of this I shall go ahead and chime in. Professor Tim Hain is a fully tenured Professor of Physical Medicine, Neurology and Otolaryongology at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine. He is the medical director for the Chicago Dizziness and Hearing Center, which is a clinic affiliated with Northwestern University Hospital. His profile at the NWU website lists a very partial list of publications. A PubMed search reveals dozens more. Near all of his papers revolve around the area of migraine, dizziness and otology. He is a recognized and well published expert on neurology, otology, dizziness, hearing and migraine. He has been maintaining a website for several years which which includes loads of information regarding these medically related topics and also includes papers on the topics. I believe we can all agree to this. Right? Since we all recognize that he is an expert as to these topics then we can all agree that WP:SPS most certainly applies to him, per

  Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

  Professor Hain's publications most certainly have been in this area. As such there is nothing dishonest nor would a violation of policy occur by quoting this as-of-yet unpublished paper. As someone who is in the medical and research fields- and who will be specializing in neurology- I can vouch for the fact that some papers take a significant amount of time in getting published. It is highly likely that this paper has been submitted and is simply undergoing editorial review. That really does not matter, however. WP:SPS makes it very clear that there is absolutely nothing wrong in citing this extremely well written and highly relevant paper by a recognized expert in the field. If WP:SPS does not apply then how and when does it? Basket of Puppies 05:18, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but I must beg to differ. Citing an unpublished article is indeed a violation of the original research policy. Please see the first line of the policy: WP:OR (no unpublished facts). Even outside the wiki world, you don't cite unpublished articles in a professional setting. It's sidesteps the entire peer-review process. I know it takes a long time to get through the publication process, but there's a reason for that: that's how we know the paper is trustworthy. It's fine to discuss such things with friends/colleagues, etc (e.g. the talk page would be an appropriate place to keep tabs on this paper). But one does not get the seal of approval until it's accepted by the journal and you have a publication date. When dealing with science, you have to ensure that cited facts have been vetted, regardless of how authoritative the author might be. Chaldor (talk) 07:48, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Guidelines state clearly to give absolute preference to high quality peer reviewed secondary sources, as explained above. There is absolutely no reason to resort to SPS .com site, as long as the statements of the article can be sourced to such preferential sources. See explanation above. See also a link to a peer reviewed published review article on the talk page, which also contains many links to related sources. If there are so many pubmed hits of Dr. Hain, use these published articles with PMIDs. All as explained above. The patient site is not peer reviewed, but a rich source of links to peer reviewed materials supporting the statements. Use these. See above. 70.137.153.83 (talk) 05:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Are the following sources reliable?

Are these sources ok to use for factual citations? The Red Peacock (talk) 05:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

• www.highbeam.com/
• www.thenation.com/
• www.huffingtonpost.com/

Short answer: Sometimes (and perhaps even "often"). Longer answer: These are all admittedly partisan political sources, and that does influences their reporting. However, they are also extremely notable political sources. Thus, while we should mention what they say (in accordance with NPOV), it is best to phrase any material taken from such sources as statement of opinion rather than fact, by direct in text attribution (as in: "According to the Huffington Post, blah blah blah "). Obviously, this would apply to similar sources on both sides of the political spectrum. Blueboar (talk) 13:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

What about highbeam.com? Is that reliable? The Red Peacock (talk) 16:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Highbeam is an archive of other sources, so it will depend on the particular article. Most of what they archive is reliable, though. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 19:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a subtle point about using sources which contain political advocacy for matters other than opinion. For example, when an editor inserts a quote from a political journal "According to the Census Bureau..." "FBI statistics report..." -- that quote, stating a public fact, can be challenged by another editor if the purported cited fact cannot be found in the public records of the source's source. This doesn't imply deception on the part of anyone, it could be an unintentional and correctable error. patsw (talk) 02:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Schools

Hey,

Is it acceptable to cite a school's website in its article? Computerjoe's talk 16:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

What school? If it's a normal public or private US school, then yes, but only for non-controversial information about the school. If it's John's School of Witchcraft, then probably not. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 19:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Well a private UK school. Guess state UK schools too. Computerjoe's talk 19:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Carina Axelsson entry

Hello,

The "references" on this page are largely Weblogs, wordpress, and other zine style material. There is a fan named "Unionsoap" who continually puts these blogs back in and simply reverts them to the blog material.

I would like to move these:

^ http://books.google.com/books?q=Carina+Axelsson&btnG=Search+Books ^ http://www.workhousepr.com/underground/books/spring2004.php ^ http://royalandco.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/carina-axelsson-a-new-princess-for-sweden/ ^ http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/21/magazine/fashion-the-waif-farers.html ^ The New York Times: The Waif Farers ^ http://danishroyalwatchers.blogspot.com/2006/11/danish-royal-roundup-11.html ^ http://royalandco.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/carina-axelsson-a-new-princess-for-sweden/ ^ http://royalandco.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/carina-axelsson-a-new-princess-for-sweden/

to "External Links" and take out them as references, with the exception of the NY Times. (I really don't even think this article should be in here at all.)

Are these links above considered to be "reliable" sources?

Thanks, PR (talk) 16:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The blogs are easy to address. Blogs about living people should never be used (unless it's the individual's blog). They are not reliable sources. See the policy: WP:RS#Statements of opinion.

I don't know what the question is with the books.google.com entry, but so long as that is being used to show that there are books published by her, etc...then I'd consider that a reliable source. Any further claims or interpretations beyond that however are not supported. Chaldor (talk) 07:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Carina Axelsson entry

Sorry, double post. PR (talk) 20:08, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Barrett v. Rosenthal

This article has been tagged with {{Primary sources}}; however, in my estimation, such a tag is unwarranted. The tag reads as such:

This article needs references that appear in reliable third-party publications. Primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject are generally not sufficient for a Wikipedia article. Please add more appropriate citations from reliable sources.

While the article does cite some primary sources (the actual decisions from court cases which the article pertains to), the vast majority of the references are from reliable third-party sources such as newspapers, online media, and published legal references.

We are attempting to get this article elevated to GA status. Having that tag in place is definitely detrimental to this process. So, is the tag warranted or not? Thanks. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 16:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Assuming that the article does indeed have quality secondary sources (which it certainly appears to), that tag should if anything only be placed on sections which lack such. It is wrong, in my opinion, to place a blanket template at the top of an article unless the problem is very obvious to anyone familiar with Wikipedia practices, and this problem, if it exists at all, is far from obvious. PSWG1920 (talk) 17:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

The tag doesn't belong there. A online court transcript on the court's official web site is about as reliable and verifiable as anything in the Wikipedia. I concur that the many secondary sources already cited are the backbone of the article: This article does not need (more) references that appear in reliable third-party publications. The editor who added it might have been under the impression that primary sources contaminate an article otherwise well-sourced. patsw (talk) 03:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Criteria to establish notability of a short story

There's no notability noticeboard that I know of, so I'm posting this here as it addresses sourcing issues. Some of you may wish to comment on a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability (books)#Short story? about whether a new guideline is needed to address the notability of a short story. NJGW (talk) 23:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)