Talk:Jews

To discuss the infobox in the top right corner of the article, please visit Template talk:Infobox Jews.

Why 'Arabs'?

Jews in general partly (or mostly) descend from Middle Eastern people, no doubt about that. But why does it specifically list Arabs as related ethnic group?

What about this?
"Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11573163?dopt=Abstract

And even if Jews are genetically very similar to "Arabs" it's true only with Levantine Arabs, surely not Arabs from Somalia, Libya, Oman etc.

Helloooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Besides, this article is not really about ethnicity! Or is it? I don't know. The population figures include Ethiopian Jews (Black converts), while excluding ethnic Jews from US, Russia, Germany etc., who are not Jewish by religion/religious law (for example - there are about 6-8 (not 5.2) million ethnic Jews in the states. The same is true for other countries, especially in the FSU.79.183.235.101 (talk) 17:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Because relation is not just based on genetics. They're both Semitic peoples, and Middle Eastern peoples. Saimdusan Talk|Contribs 07:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

If so, then why aren't they related to other Germanic peoples? Prior to the establishment of Israel, the vast majority of the world's Jews spoke Yiddish, a Germanic language, as a first language.

Beginning of the Diaspora

There is a reference to a policy of conversion which continued after the destruction of the Jewish state. This is ambiguous. Conversions ended effectively with the rise of Rabbinic Judaism following the destruction of the Second Temple. Further, it is likely that many or most of the Greek Speaking Diaspora Jews effectively assimilated through conversion to Christianity in the first two centuries CE. There is no remnant of Hellenistic Diaspora Culture in Rabbinic Jews. Rabbinic Judaism rejected the Greek translation of the Torah (Septuagint). In all likelihood, contemporary Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews probably descend from a core population from the Land of Israel and Babylonia (this is supported by common Aramaic and Hebrew texts including the Babylonian and Yerushalmi Talmuds as well as extensive DNA evidence). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.207.30 (talk • contribs) 12:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The DNA Debate

The genetic origin of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewry is frequently misunderstood. Haplogroups J and E are among the best candidates for Middle Eastern Origin. However haplogroups G2a and T are also likely indicative of a Middle Eastern origin and are shared between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews. Haplogroups Q, R1b, and R1a are also found both within Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish populations despite ultimately originating outside the Middle East. One must remember that ancient Israel and later Judea were a tremendous crossroads for populations from the Middle East, Asia, Europe, and North Africa and therefore the sources of original "Jewish" DNA were likely varied. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.207.30 (talk • contribs) 12:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• The original jewish people was a very small group and homogeneous; the excessive diversity of haplogroups only indicate the racial impurity of excessive convertions of goyims(fact)!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.5.238 (talk) 21:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

The mtdna haplogroups of Ashkenazi jews are: K (32%), H (21%), N1b (10%), and J1 (7%) Haplogroup K: is in Europe particularly common around the alps in non jewish people. About 12% of the non jewish population in germany belongs to the mtdna haplogroup K. 60% of the non jewish population in Ireland belongs to the haplogroup H and it's also the largest haplogroupe in Europe. So how can the article state that the jewish mtdna is almost absent in European population? http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201764a.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.203.254 (talk) 13:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The data you give is not supported by your source. In fact, your source shows that Jews are genetically distinct from non-Jews. Goalie1998 (talk) 21:32, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Not at all! It shows that they are a mixture of European DNA! Even if the haplogroups procentage is lower in non jewish population doesent mean it doesent exist. Haplogroup H in Jews=21% Haplogroup H in European=40% Haplogroup K in jews=32%, haplogroup k in Germany=12%. 12% of 80 000 000 people = 9 600 000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.203.254 (talk) 08:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The Khazars

Frequently references to Khazars are framed so as to imply that the entire Khazar population was comprised of converts. This is historically inaccurate. Hebrew, Arabic, and other sources maintain that large numbers of Persian, Babylonian, Byzantine, Crimean, and Armenian Jews moved into Khazaria and were the impetus for the conversion of the ruling classes to Judaism. Thus the Khazars should be regarded as a fusion of Middle Eastern Jewry and converted Turkic peoples.

On the contribution of the Khazars to Ashkenazic Jewry, DNA evidence suggests that this did not occur to a significant degree as Haplogroups E, T, J, are not found in large amounts within the lands that comprised Khazaria. Though the proximity of the Caucasus to the Middle East makes it more difficult to draw significant conclusions about certain haplogroups.

Finally, there is no discernible trace of Turkic vocabulary, grammer, syntax, or any other linguistic clue, in Yiddish. Yiddish itself is based upon a fusion of Medieval High German, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Slavic dialects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.207.30 (talk • contribs) 12:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

• The vast majority of jews from Eastern Europe("Asquenazim") descend from converted Khazars and not are a pure jewish people(raciality)!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.5.238 (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Jewish Culture

Does the conversion of the Khazars to Judaism matter from a cultural point of view? It should be expressed that Judaism is not a racial identification (except in the eyes of anti-semites) and that further contemporary Jewry are certainly the cultural descendants of ancient Middle Eastern Jewry, and as DNA evidence points out, most likely the biological descendants of these Jews as well. Further, there is no trace of Khazar culture or custom among Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Kavkazi, or Mizrachi Jewry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.207.30 (talk • contribs) 12:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The idea of a Jewish race is not exclusive to anti-Jewish bigots. Many Jews themselves identify their "race" or ethnicity as Jewish. Saimdusan Talk|Contribs 07:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

ETHIOPIAN JEWS

this shiould be added to the top right hand side of the page

http://www.babaganewz.com/archive/article.cfm?ID=51 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.207.115.161 (talk) 19:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Why? And how do you add anything to the top right hand side of a page? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 08:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I suspect there might have been a change in the status of Ethiopian Jews over the past seven years. Do you have more recent info? Phil_burnstein (talk) 20:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

First Monotheism?

The first monotheist in history seems to be the penultimate Hyksos King of Avaris, named Apophis, who took Sutheck (Set) to be his sole deity, and enforced this god on the population by means of banning worship of all other gods, and allowing the sacred animals of the Egyptians to be killed.[citation needed] Following the second intermediate period, Akhnaton replicated the monotheism of Apothis but with the Aten disk as the one-god of monotheism.

Or Zoroastrainism which John R Hinnels in Penguin Dictionary of Religions has it (c.1200) contemporaneous with Jewish Monotheism at least, and most scholars I have read would accept some degree of cross-fertilization or syncretain as occurring during the Babylonian Exile. Ninian Smart writes 'Zoroastrianism ...can be held to exist in six phases its early period lasted until the 6th century.', he goes on to say that 'there is rough consensus that he was probably of 10th century.' pp.214-215 The Worlds Religions Cambridge.ISBN 0 521 34005 5

That the 'chosen people' status associated with the Abrahamic lineages is unique amongst the ancient religions I doubt anyone would argue. However the one God idea, be it a form of monism or monotheism is surely equally claimed by several traditions of antiquity. Brahman, Dao, and the precursors to Persian theology all seem to bare this out.

The issue comes of course when one questions the nature of subordinate deities as separate autonomous entities and the way in which a beleiver relates to and conceptualizes the Deity, which in all monotheistic religions developes and evolves over time. Since any theology will ultimately conclude that all subordinate gods come the source High Deity, be it Zeus or YHWH or Ahura Mazda. Even extreme forms of Gnosticism acknowledge there must ultimately be one source for existing beings. In its beginings Judaism is clearly a Henotheism existing along side other deities such Baal in the OT. Thus, to claim Abrahmic traditions and the first monotheism be they Jewish seems to me uncertain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Burach42 (talk • contribs) 19:16, March 22, 2009

According to the article's source, Judaism was the first monotheistic religion. It says the Zoroastrians were "henotheists: they seemed to have believed in many gods but with one supreme god who was more powerful than the others". — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 19:59, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Judaism Modern Judaism is unequivocally monotheistic, but there are traces of henotheism in biblical accounts of Israelite culture. It is generally uncontroversial that many of the Iron Age religions found in the land of Israel were henotheistic in practice. For example, the Moabites worshipped the god Chemosh, the Edomites, Qaus, both of whom were part of the greater Canaanite pantheon, headed by the chief god, El. The Canaanite pantheon consisted of El and Asherat as the chief deities, with 70 sons who were said to rule over each of the nations of the earth. These sons were each worshiped within a specific region. K. L. Noll states that "the Bible preserves a tradition that Yahweh used to 'live' in the south, in the land of Edom" and that the original god of Israel was El Shaddai.[11] The article goes on to agree my studies in that it was not until the Babylonian Exile that the Jews become 'unequivocally monotheistic', 'The destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and the exile to Babylon was considered a divine reprimand and punishment for the mistaken worship of other deities. By the end of the Babylonian captivity of Judah in the Tanakh, Judaism is strictly monotheistic.' Hence Jewish monotheism is at least contemorary with Zoroastrian monotheism. Abraham after all came from Persia, and it is likely that he represents this henotheistic tradition which permeates both traditions, and no doubt had some antecedents in Egypt as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Burach42 (talk • contribs) 20:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Who is a Jew?

In the article is says "Interpretations of sections of the Tanakh, such as Deuteronomy 7:1-5, by learned Jewish sages, are used as a warning against intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews because "[the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others." Leviticus 24:10 says that the son in a marriage between a Hebrew woman and an Egyptian man is "of the community of Israel." This contrasts with Ezra 10:2-3, where Israelites returning from Babylon vow to put aside their gentile wives and their children."

Why does it say "This contrasts with Ezra....", it is in complete agreement with the source from Ezra. In the quote from Deuteronomy, it's discussing how a non-Jewish father would cause the Jewish child to turn away from G-d, because the child is Jewish due to having a Jewish mother. In Ezra, it's discussing how the non-Jewish children, due to having non-Jewish mothers, where put aside by the Jewish fathers. Both sources complement each other in saying that a child is Jewish if the mother is Jewish, and aren't Jewish if only the father is Jewish.

Whoever has the power to do so, kindly change "This contrasts with Ezra..." to "This complements Ezra..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.151.139 (talk) 04:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

wrong statistics

the Italian Hebrew are 45.000 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.23.99.136 (talk) 18:39, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Not according to our source. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 19:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Dato falsato

Gli ebrei italiani sono 45.000, secondo i dati statistici del CENSIS; quindi, i 28.600 è un dato errato. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.81.19.36 (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Our source says 28,600. Do you have a link to the source that says 45,000? Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 19:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)