Talk:Kosovo

Flag

The flag and the coat of arms have to different colours. (See the blue). I think the blue of the coat of arms is wrong. --Xarioti (talk) 20:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

map

The Republic of Kosovo infobox seems to have a map which does not have clear border lines.

This is the only infobox in this whole article the should be doing justice to the Independent State has a map which still shows it as a province of Serbia.

Please can you admins change this map to the one that is use in the CIA World Fact book.

Even though everyone knows that Wikipedia is edited by people, they still look at wikipedia as a main source of information. For this reason i urge all editors of the Kosovo article to make a compromise and only have one infobox (Republic of Kosovo) or to split the article into as many sub-categories as are needed but making sure that the main Kosovo article should be replaced by the Republic of Kosovo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.168.57 (talk) 15:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the serbs should make their own article named Kosmet, like I proposed. This seems to me to be the only way to get this article right again. At the moment it is unbearable POVis pro-serbian propaganda. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 16:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

this has been discussed. On the other hand, rhe article is definety pro-Albanian (doesnt include the destruction of Serbian churches, the drug and crimes in Kosovo, etc).24.36.148.68 (talk) 17:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You may include the destrucion if you mention that the few destructed churches are all build up again, in opposite to the destructed mosques in serbia, as they are all destructed and no one still exists there. Again, please answer how it comes that the English and serbian WP are the only ones with more than one info box. Thank you. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 18:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

O man, lets put aside the fact that Albanians sided with the [Nazis] and commited ethnic cleansing in WW2 and that this isnt in the article. Lets put that aside. I want you to know that I respect Albanians since I know that they are being misguided. Above all, there are 3 info boxes since this reflects reality. A number of countries accept Kosovo seperations from Serbia yet also a number of countries see Kosovo as defined by the UN charter, Kosovo as part of Serbia. This is reflected in the 3rd info box (3rd since it usually goes in translation English version, Albanians version and then, at the end Serbian version). This article is clearly pro-Albanian.Mike Babic (talk) 21:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

What sides the Albanian government (read: government, not ethic group, which is not a cognitively unified entity and thus cannot chose sides as a whole) took in WW2 is completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion. It's like bringing up Hitler while discussing something that Germany did in the last ten years. Zazaban (talk) 19:50, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Understandable, my point is that Albanian Kosovo "as a country" was first constructed by Hitler when K-Albanians sided with Hitler while Serbs popular support was anti-Nazi at that time. Since this is not mentioned, this is my support for illustrating my view of this article as being pro-Albanian. Another support would be the fact that K-Albanians as the poorest region in Yugoslavia got large amount of funding for schools, hositals, road, factories, etc. Over $1 million USD per day, back in 1990's went to construct Kosovo which was largly Albanian. Although largly Albanian, it wasnt 90% Albanian, it was lets guesstimate 80%. Thus, it is interesting to learn, that the method of removal of those 10% of Serbs from Kosovo is also not described in the article. Its somewhat clear that I'm baseing my view of this article on supportive facts that are not present in the article. Facts that should be present yet I dont care to write them since over time they will become present in the article.24.36.148.68 (talk) 22:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

To say that Kosovo independence move was created by Adolf Hitler is simply absurd — there is no serious historian (outside of the Balkans) that would believe this history. And, to make things clear, most of the killed people during the 1998-1999 Kosovo War were the Albanian-speaking Kosovars, not the Serbs or any other people of the region — and this is confirmed by all the forensics and the by the experts of ICTY, too.

The most massive people expulsion during the Kosovo war was also perpreted on Kosovar Albanians, too — the immense refugee camps in Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia weren’t mirgae, and contrary to Milosevic’s propaganda the Kosovar Albanians wer not fleeing NATO bombs, but Serb military and paramilitary forces — including the ones commanded by Arkan.

So, it seems like if anyone talks about common sense here is labelled “anti-Serb”, but if others say here that Kosovar Albanians were Muslim “Nazis in the past, Al Qaeda today”, nobody says a thing.--201.52.99.144 (talk) 06:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is Pec put first and then in brackets (Peja)? The same goes for Kosovska Mitrovica!? We here, that represent the reality and the only authority in Republic of Kosova, do not name our cities like that! The only ones that calls those cities like that are a minority! Surely youd want to name a city by how the authority in Republic of Kosova has named it, and as well as how the majority of Kosovars name it. Thus I propose to put albanian names for our cities, and put the bosnian/serbian ones in brackets cause obviosly I dont want them to feel left out. They too live here, but as a minority, they are the ones that should be put in brackets, not us the majority in Kosova Republic DiedonD (talk) 06:53, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo not a country officially.

This article should not be about pro-albanian or pro-serb arguments. I would however like to point out that Kosovo is not a member of the United Nations, unlike all recognised countries. The fact that Serbs massacred Albanians should not be ignored, the actions were despicable. Since Kosovo's declaration of independence, the Albanians have a large majority and there is still alot of tension with the Serb minority, the Kosovan government needs to maintain order and protect the Serb minorities or else they shall come under the same scrutiny as the Milosevic regime. Kosovo has seen enough bombs and we don't need to see the same situation but played the other way round. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.102.6.103 (talk) 03:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Serbian views on the past 20years can be summarised by this http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5973 website.Mike Babic (talk) 20:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

In case you didn't know, both the United States and many European countries have recognized Kosovo. [1] Nonamer98 (talk) 23:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree 100% with your statment. That should be added to the article. Yet that doesnt mean that a point proveing that Serbs were demonized in the media during the war should be removed. That should be mentioned. Also you might not realise the significance of that picture in the article, but I do.Mike Babic (talk) 02:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

To Talk about “demonization of Serbs” as a fact in the article is POV. Other thing to be clear about is that Kosovo is a partially-recognized country — with the USA, Germany, United Kingdom, France, Croatia, Macedonia and other countries recognizing its government, passports, flags and borders. And, in fact, if we see in other versions of Wikipedia, the only two versions that show Kosovo as a part of Serbia is the Serb Wikipedia and the English-language Wikipedia.

And one more time, the facxt that Kosovo is not in the UN would mean it isn’t a country. Switzerland was out of UN until the 21st century, and Taiwan left in 1971 — but both are considered countries. About recognition, Israel is not recognized by most of the Arab World, which in many times describe Israel as a mere “Zionist occupation of Palestine”. But no one serious says Israel does not exist as a country.

So, before invoking passions, think before writting, please.--201.52.99.144 (talk) 06:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

This is my motivational speech for a more neutral artiucle....Listen, I'm 100 hard core into politics. This could be my medication talking yet I want you to know that I just had surgery that will imporve the quality of my speech since I'm grooming myself to become an politician. To add, I want you to know that I have lived though an ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Krajina. I know what the media in western country was reporting, and what was realisticlly happening. You can't argue against the demonization of Serbs in the 1990's by citing your opinion. Demonization of Serbs did happen in the media in order to allow the military to engage targets without protest. As shown in the article, the media reporting of 200,000 Albanians dead turned out to be less than 2000 in the years leading up to the bombing. The fact that the media lied should be added to the article. The fact that 2000 Albanians died should be added to the article. We also need to add the statement of the British Defense Secretary George Robertson, who stated that most of those 2000 Albanians in the pre-war period were "victims of the KLA rather than the Serbs". Yes, KLA killed Gorani (Muslims in Kosovo) and all other Albanians who did not want for Kosovo to seperate from Serbia. Now, my main drive for writing all this, is for the Serbs to stop being killed in the Kosovo and for our 1000 year old churches to stop being burned down. Above all, you need to stop complaing when I add sources such as the one above because I want the hatred of Albanian and Serbian people to stop. Now listen carefully, I dont belive In my Serbian goverment now, just like I didnt belive that Slobodan Milosevic was acting in the interest of Serbs. Thus, I want you to know that you need to write truth, without regards to whos cause it will help. This is the only way for the article to improve and for us to stop this hate. For example, you may noy like the fact that Serbia paid out millions of dollars to build Kosovo schools and hospitals, etc, yet this is a fact. Just like its a fact that all Albanians enjoyed stated sponsored, Albanians langauge TV, and Albanian langauge schools who were also sponsored by the Belgrade during most of the 20th century. Yet allow for these facts to enter the article. This is what will save your people. Kosovo is headed into becoming a mining country that will be filled with slave labour. This labour will be proivided by the local population. Already Serbs are economiclly being forced to sign up for US Army and go fight in Iraq since this is the only way for them to survive and send their family money. Lastly, I wish to say that certain groups working on this board, especially these [groups http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23219277/], will be recognised and exposed in an instant. I dont mind when people add pro-Albanians stuff, even if the article is still pro Albanians, yet they should also add some pro-Serbian stuff since this is the only way for our people to connect.Mike Babic (talk) 21:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. Kosovo IS a country, officially. It is recognized by more than 50 countries. Of course it's a country. You don't have to be a UN member to be a country. Kosovo already has recognition by the most powerful and the most democratic countries in the World.Bosniak (talk) 07:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Personally I see China, Russia, India, perhaps even Brazil, Spain, Saudi Arabia and Iran as pretty powerful... But yes the most democratic countries, we do recognize Kosovo (everyone in the top 10 except New Zealand at least) chandler ··· 07:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

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Palestinian territories are also recognised by a lot of countries, even Canada I think. The question with Kosovo right now is if the 1244 is still active. If it is, then Kosovo is 100% Serbian, if its not then it's a country.24.36.148.68 (talk) 10:21, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Is a country defined by other countries or by itself is the relevant question. If the existence of a country is defined by how outsiders view it, then Kosovo is part of Serbia (UN Security Council 1244). If a country is defined by the people who actually live there, then Kosovo is a country (Kosovo declaration of independence). It all comes down to whether territorial integrity or self-determination is considered more important, both have been considered to be of paramount importance in international relations. Khajidha (talk) 01:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo organ theft

Dear Wikipedia Users, Please have a look at the article named "Kosovo organ theft" which is not neutral and not objective.

Best greetings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.226.85.253 (talk) 21:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Serbia sold human organs of Kosovar Albanians to Russia http://www.newkosovareport.com/200903131667/Society/Serbia-sold-human-organs-of-Kosovar-Albanians-to-Russia.html . We should include this into the article. Bosniak (talk) 07:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Since only one site "Kosova news" writes about the story, I will ask you to provides at least one more source that is valid Bosniak . Especially, since i'm disgusted that a source such as "kosova news" has, in my opinion, decided to mock the Kosovo organ theft.Mike Babic (talk) 20:43, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

The BBC are covering KLA atrocities, perhaps something noteworthy that merits inclusion in the article: [[2]]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PolScribe (talk • contribs) 16:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Template talk:History of Kosovo

There is an attempt to use the Coat of Arms of the Republic of Kosovo as the symbol for the entire Kosovo region currently taking place on Template:History of Kosovo. Not only that, but the template makes no mention of the dispute and goes on to characterize the current state of affairs in Kosovo by calling it "Republic of Kosovo". In essence, the template completely ignores WP:NPOV and the fact that most of the world does not recognize the "Republic of Kosovo" or its Coat of Arms as representative for the entire region of Kosovo. I'd like to invite users involved in these affairs to have a look at this dispute. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 12:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Bad English

"Serbs hold a strong cultural attachment to Kosovo and see it as the cultural heartland of Serbia, here a World War I poster - “Kossovo Day” from 1916 inviting to solidarity with the Serbia's allies." That's bad English. --130.243.148.247 (talk) 13:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Double as much supporters for Kosovo at the ICJ

http://www.ora-online.ch/index.php/kosova/270-doppelt-so-grosse-unterstuetzung-fuer-kosovo-vor-igh says that about 20 countries will support Kosovo and only half as much will support Serbia in the courtroom. The problem that I wanted to point out is that many users say that Kosovo is not a state and refuse the using of signs of its statehood, for example the country box as it is on top of every country by stating that most countries do not recognize Kosovos independence. It seems they are wrong and they should at least admit now that most countries neither recognize nor not recognize, like New Zealand, for example. Therefore there are more countries that do recognize compared to the countries that do not recognize. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 15:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

UN Charter Resolution 1244 clearly states that Kosovo is a part of Serbia. The present goverment of Kosovo is part of the a Provisional Institutions of Self-Government which is outlined in the resulutuion 1244. Also, the EULEX "works under the general framework of United Nations Security Resolution 1244", as found on their site. My point is that 1244 is 100% in force and with this Kosovo is seen legaly as a province of Serbia by all countrie unless othewise stated. Those countries that did recognise the seperation of Kosovo are in direct violation of 1244 and they do so at the risk of being sued by Serbia. Thus, here on Wikipedia, we need to mention that some countries recogniuse the sepeartion of Kosovo while the majority of the world continue to see Kosovo as legaly a Serbian province. This seems to be reflective of reality and acceptable to Serbs and Albanians.Mike Babic (talk) 15:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

These numbers shown us at the ICJ prove exactly what I said from the beginning and disprove your claims as there are more countries in favor of Kosovas independence than against it and most countries are just still indifferent. However, time is on Kosovas side, every day nails Kosova firmer on the maps. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 00:55, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

The UN resolution 1244 do not states, in any part, that Kosovo is part of Serbia — in fact, it states that Kosovo is a part of Yugoslavia (by then, a non-UN member that was not recognized by USA as the sucessor state of Communist Yugoslavia) which would be out of political and military control of Belgrade and with institutions of self-governemnt until a resolution of its political status is defined. And the resolution 1244 was adopted by the UN Security Council, not by the UN General Assembly. So to define that “the majority of the countries of the world recognize Kosovo as part of Serbia” is not very precise to say the least, since many countries could be neutral in relation to the Kosovo’s independence question.--BalkanWalker (talk) 08:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

sheesh. statehood is not a popularity contest. Well, it may be, but you need to be popular enough to get UN recognition. Kosovo doesn't have that. There are promising signs that it may get there. Which means we will properly reflect the fact once it becomes reality, per WP:CRYSTAL. For now, the very fact that Kosovo's statehood is debated in front of an international court establishes that this is a dispute hence Wikipedia will continue to treat Kosovo as a disputed territory. --dab (𒁳) 09:29, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Dieter Bachmann, you live in Switzerland, you have to know that Switzerland itself was not a UN member until recently, so this is not an argument at all when it comes to statehood. And while talking about reality, Kosovo's independence is fait accompli. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 11:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. The point isn't membership but recognition. If you know of any national or international body disputing the statehood of Switzerland later than 1648, I'd love to hear about it. dab (𒁳) 11:43, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Just face it, there is more support for Kosovo at the ICJ and resolution 1244 does not rule out independence as it does not states, in any part, that Kosovo is part of serbia, like BalkanWalker wrote. Everything else is nonsense - or serbian nationalistic propaganda denying the reality. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 13:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I am facing it. Things are looking bright for you aren't they. This means that maybe in five years or so, the RoK might get full international recognition. Feel free to come back once this happens. Until then, WP:CRYSTAL. See you around 2014. --dab (𒁳) 15:44, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

This will be short and simple. Resolution 1244 was signed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbia has all legal rights and responsibilities of that dissolved state. 1244 reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia and this is a fact. The new agreement, Eulex agreement signed by the government of Kosovo is also under 1244, as cited in my post above. To add, the actual government of Kosovo functions under one of the pillars of the 1244 that calls for Provisional Institutions of Self-Government.Mike Babic (talk) 16:54, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

If partisan, POV-pushing Albanian and Serb nationalists keep this argument up about whether Kosovo is independent or whether it is not, it will not matter because then it will become an edit war and this article will have to be put in lockdown. Albanian and Serb nationalists should not be trusted as objective observers of the situation. There is only one objective reality, and that is that most Albanians and Serbs ABSOLUTELY HATE EACH OTHER. I posted the sociological studies from the Tito-era on this article that indicate that Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo did not like each other in peacetime and there were few intermarriages or friendships between the two ethnic groups. Albanian nationalists see the Serbs as trying to occupy their land, Serbian nationalists see Kosovo as being occupied by Albanians. The only fact of the matter is that the two sides are completely unreconciliable, most Albanians hate Serbs and most Serbs hate Albanians. Xenophobia between ethnic and religious groups is strong in the Balkans and xenophobic nationalism is commonplace. SO, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS AT THE U.N., ALBANIAN NATIONALISTS WILL SAY KOSOVO IS THEIRS AND SERB NATIONALISTS WILL SAY KOSOVO IS THEIRS, THERE IS NO WINNER! If this article is just being used as a blog for such xenophobic Albanian and Serb nationalists to vent their hate of each other, this article should be shut off to all non-administrator users as it was after the declaration of independence by the Kosovo government in 2008. SO LET'S JUST STATE THE FACTS ABOUT THE SITUATION IN KOSOVO, KOSOVO IS A REGION WITH TWO ETHNIC FACTIONS THAT HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF HATRED TOWARDS EACH OTHER. THEY HAVE BOTH COMMITTED WAR CRIMES AGAINST EACH OTHER BECAUSE THEY HATE EACH OTHER, THE END! Every time that I see an Albanian nationalist or Serb nationalist say "this is pro-Serb", "this is pro-Albanian", "this is anti-Serb", or "this is anti-Albanian", I will post the capitalized statement on the situation of Kosovo, because that is the ultimate reality of the situation. Kosovo is a disputed territory just like Kashmir, East Jerusalem, Chechnya, South Ossetia, Somaliland, and the Tamil regions of Sri Lanka. Thus Kosovo is not some special place that defies the laws of gravity (metaphorically speaking of course), it is just like any other disputed land. Multiple factions contest the land and hate each other. The sooner that Albanian and Serb nationalists recognize that their dispute is not unique, perhaps they will be less arrogant in asserting their claims.--R-41 (talk) 02:29, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

That's it. But you can say it much shorter: If there is no consensus in a marriage the consequence is divorce. Such a pity serbs seem not to accept this divorce. But they must, there is no other way. The sooner they accept it, the better for them. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 06:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

that's not what R-41 said. Ethnic hatred or a separatist movement do not make for a successful secession. The point is that for the purposes of Wikipedia, we let the real world take care of the real-world problem. We are not part of the solution, we merely report on what is happening. For the time being, we report the territory as disputed because, as this talkpage illustrates so effectively, it happens to be disputed. That's all there is to say about it until there is some major development out there in the real world. --dab (𒁳) 12:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

It seems you missed to realize that the divorce already happend, like many serbs. And guess what? Some will never realize. They lost contact with reality, like you did. ;) --84.56.253.226 (talk) 12:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Now, if there is anything you want to say regrading the improvement of this article within WP:TALK, now would be a good time. Otherwise I think we can conclude this discussion. --dab (𒁳) 15:31, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, there is something I want to point out in the article, it is written: "On the other hand, the proclamation of independence is not recognised by the majority of UN countries" and I showed that this is just not true, see the sayings of New Zealands Prime Minister about neither recognizing nor not recognizing and about the numbers at the ICJ which are proving his sayings. How often do I have to repeat that and how long will you continue to deny the reality? --Tubesship (talk) 15:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah, so the anon is not anonymous after all. Tubesship, you should be well-aware that sock puppetry is a serious breach of policy. Stop editing as an IP if you do not want to get yourself blocked. — Emil J. 09:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Would you like show me where it is written that one is obliged to log in instead of trying to intimidate others, please? <°((((< --84.56.253.226 (talk) 12:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

You use the IP mostly for inflammatory POV-pushing on talk pages of various Kosovo-related articles. That falls under WP:GHBH. In any case, the policy page recommends you (see the lead section) to provide links between the accounts in most cases to make it easy to determine that one individual shares them and to avoid any appearance or suspicion of sockpuppetry, and you did not do that. — Emil J. 15:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

My IP is an IP and not an alternative account. Stop arguing with me and stay on topic. You use this as a distraction from the discussion. The discussion is about Kosova and the fact that not announcing a recognition does not mean an opposition towards recognition as I have shown with the numbers at the ICJ. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 16:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC) BTW: The main reason not to log in is to avoid others vandalizing my personal talk page as this happend in the past, but that it off topic, so let us stay focused.

The policy applies whenever you use two or more different identities, it does not matter whether it is a real account or only an IP address. You can see for yourself how many of the socks reported on WP:SPI are IPs. There are efficient ways of dealing with vandalism on your talk page, or any other page for that matter, see WP:Vandalism. — Emil J. 17:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

58 UN members recognize the RoK. The UN has 192 member states. You do the math. But I agree this "majority" business is misleading, because the majority of these states is completely irrelevant to the question. The point ist that Russia and China refuse to recognize it, and until that changes, there is no way forward. Kosovo is under UN administration and policed by the EU. It is by no stretch of the term in any way a sovreign or self-governed entity, nor does it remain under Serbian control. Kosovo is a disputed territory under UN administration. The two parties in the dispute are the Repubic of Serbia (recognized by all of the UN) and the Republic of Kosovo (recognized by some states but not by others). This is the "reality" and you are the one trying to deny it in favour of your fantasy about a possible future. And I say this not as a "pro-Serb" partisan. Personally, I would like nothing more than a stable and independent Kosovo if this would mean that Europe could finally be excused from having to babysit half the Balkans. --dab (𒁳) 10:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Dieter Bachmann, we live in a free world where neither Russia nor China can act like dictators over the world. They might be dictatorships at home but not when it comes to the globe, even if you may find this pity. You may try to create a dictatorship in your country if you like, but do not advocate it here on Wikipedia, please. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 13:07, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

We live in a world where the nuclear powers, i.e. the permanent members in the UN security council, call the shots on any geopolitical question. That is, you get your independent Kosovo as soon as the US, Russia, China and a bunch of Europeans agree that this is the way it's going to be. I am sorry to shatter your delusions about the "free" world where any happy-go-lucky party of irredentists can go and declare themselves independent and live happily ever after, I do not endorse or "advocate" this as the way it should be, but this happens to be the world where "we live". You may consider the Russians or the Chinese, or even the US, check as applicable, evil buggers, but that doesn't change anything. Now if there is anything you want to discuss that pertains to this article, bring it up already. --dab (𒁳) 16:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

In response to the one anonymous user's claim that Kosovo's independence was like a divorce in saying: "If there is no consensus in a marriage the consequence is divorce", my response is that even a divorce in most societies requires a legal division of assets and decision of responsibility over children between the two parties. As of yet, Kosovo is in dispute because the division of assets has not been accepted and the metaphorical divorce paper and decision of responsibility over the Serb population (like the issue of responsibility over children in a divorce) has not been agreed to by Serbia. I am not attempting to promote Serbia's case, but I am saying that Kosovo's separation is indeed like a divorce, but there is a dispute over Kosovo's seizure of the assets and population claimed by Serbia (i.e. Kosovo Polje, Serbian Orthodox monastaries, the Serb population and the territories they reside in), that is why it is a disputed separation. The fact that both Albanian and Serb nationalists don't respect each others' respective claims is why the dispute exists. On Wikipedia we are only to report what is fact, WE HAVE NO RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS IN THE ARTICLE ON THE COUNTRIES THAT SUPPORT OR OPPOSE KOSOVO'S INDEPENDENCE, WE CAN ONLY SAY THAT THEY DO OR DO NOT! SO IT IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS TO JUDGE THEM. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO JUDGE THESE COUNTRIES, GO AND TALK ON SOME BLOG OUTSIDE OF WIKIPEDIA ABOUT IT, BUT DON'T TAKE UP SPACE ON AN ENCYCLOPEDIA ABOUT IT! If fair was fair in my mind, Kosovo would be independent but Serbia would get a partition of Serb-populated Mitrovica and Kosovo Polje linked to Serbia with a roadway that would officially connect it to Serbia like Goražde is to the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it's too bad that most Albanian and Serb nationalists are too stubborn and arrogant to take an idea like this into consideration, "c'est la vie" (French: "that is life").--R-41 (talk) 01:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41, I do not know how much you know about Kosovas history, but maybe you do not know that Kosova already gave up, or should I better say had to give up most of its territory. Do you know that Skopje was the capital city of Kosovo? No? So look here: Kosovo Vilayet. Should Kosovo ask for reconciliation as it lost so much territory? I don't think so, neither should serbia. And no, Bosnia is not a role model, you know that it does not work well as it is a crippled state in which the entities are blocking each other. No, the Kosovars do not want anything from serbia and serbia should not want anything from Kosova. Revenge was never healthy. --84.56.253.226 (talk) 02:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41 I hate the admins-only-edit idea. It's not what Wikipedia is about and it seems like this article is not being vandalized at all. On the other hand, your divorce analogy explaines a complex issue in simple terms, and i want to praise that by saying good job. Kosovos "republic or provincial status"classification is complex since there are two sides (pro-anti seperation) that have equal reputable states supporting thier views. Kosovo is best classified currently as a DISPUTED REGION. I urge people to reflect reality in this article. Also, sensitive issues without solid supporting (issues that are hard to understand and are twisted by the two opposing sides, Albaniand and Serb, respectivly ) need not be added, or their prominance in the article should be kept in check by the admins.Mike Babic (talk) 03:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

the divorce metaphor is a good one, but this isn't about Kosovo the territory divorcing form Central Serbia the territory, it is Serbia's ethnic Albanians divorcing Serbia's ethnic Serbs. And it is one ugly divorce. Now Kosovo the territory in this simile represents the divorcing couple's kids, or wealth. The Kosovo question is, then, who gets to keep what. Does the beaten wife walk away with all the money? Is the property shared equally? Or according to some key (you keep southern Kosovo, we keep northern Kosovo; you get 90% of the territory, we retain 10%)? In a divorce, these things are decided by a court of law. A divorce doesn't work like "I hate you, I'm leaving you, oh and I'm keeping all your money", but most of our Albanian editors seem to think that this is exactly how it works. Now of course the metaphor breaks down because there is no universally accepted court of law. The closest thing the world has is the UN, and it is precisely for this reason that Wikipedia will begin treating the Republic of Kosovo on equal footing with any other independent state from the exact moment as there is a UN resolution doing the same: not before, and not any later than this. Counting individual countries recognizing or not recognizing is like polling the couple's friends to see whether the husband or the wife is to blame. So what if the wife has more friends saying the husband is a bastard, or vice versa? It is still the court of law that has the final word on who walks away with the kids and the money. If (if!) the ICJ endorses the secession, this may be a first step (first step!) in a process towards a UN resolution recognizing the RoK. Please. This will take time. Wikipedia will list Kosovo as a disputed territory as long as things are up in the air, Albanian protests notwithstanding, and it will treat the RoK as an independent country on equal footing with Israel as soon as we see the UN resolution, Serbian protests notwithstanding. This is what npov policy dictates, and no amount of ethnic bickering on talkpages is going to have any effect on it. It is really futile to keep arguing about this. --dab (𒁳) 11:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your compliment about my metaphor. And no, I do not think that any side owns anything to the other side. See what I wrote about the huge loss of territory of Kosova Vilayet. The same goes to Germany as they lost their eastern parts to Poland, Königsberg even to russia. But revisionism is never the way to a peaceful future. We do not ask for reconciliation, nor should the serbian side dare to ask anything from the Kosovars. Just let the wounds heal. You know, time is a healer. If divorce is accepted. Unconditionally. --Tubesship (talk) 16:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with User:dab. NPOV policy is essential and we have no right on Wikipedia to declare who deserves anything. I see hypocrisy in the one nationalistic statement made by the anon user who said "the Kosovars do not want anything from serbia and serbia should not want anything from Kosova. Revenge was never healthy." But it is the Albanian nationalists' intention to get revenge on the Serbian government by separating, as are the actions of most nationalists. Why? Because if their goal was not revenge they would have cooperated to sooth relations between Albanians and Serbs to deliver constructive justice, no matter what the denials by the Serbian government and Serb nationalists, because they would have the moral high ground to not incite further revenge by alienating Serbs in Kosovo. But that was not and never has been the goal of most Albanian nationalists, just as reconciliation has never been the goal of most Serb nationalists. Nationalism is about separation, segregation, and assimilation - even in the most noblest of causes, this causes dissent amongst those who do not want to assimilate or those who do not want to be segregated from another group of people, this is why nationalism commonly leads to war. Like I said, even the most benevolent nationalists like Mahatma Gandhi failed to unite the people of colonial India because there was little will amongst most Muslim people and Sikh people to be assimilated into a Hindu-dominated society, thus conflict has since exploded. To me, nationalism is a naive and immature ideology, and I used to be a Canadian nationalist so I know this. And to those who claim that nationalism can provide social justice, why not apply social justice to all people in the world rather than just one nation? There is no rational and non-emotional answer to this, only excuses. So nationalism is inherently not about social justice it is about separation, segregation, and assimilation, that's why it causes conflict amongst groups, And that's why Albanian and Serb nationalists; Indian and Pakistani nationalists, Canadian and Quebecois nationalists; and Hutu and Tutsi nationalists (in Rwanda) have been in conflict and vicious cycles of revenge, because nationalism's nature incites such conflict and revenge. The solution to each of these conflicts is to get both sides to STOP demanding revenge or "retributive justice" as some people sugarcoat revenge as; and instead have rehabilitative justice of both sides recognizing that they both have made mistakes that agitated both sides that started the conflict and hatred in the first place. Separation and segregation does not solve the problem. In addition, it does not matter whether either side is fully and immediately committed to such action, it takes time, but in the meantime, revenge MUST BE STOPPED. If they aren't willing to stop murdering each other, that's why peacekeepers go in, to stop their immoral actions. Now that that is said, I have described why I and hopefully others should question the judgement and justifications presented by nationalists and to understand why the dispute in Kosovo is not a local phenomenon but an international phenomenon caused by the factional nature of nationalism itself. And lastly Balkan nationalists should not feel sorry for themselves, they could have lived together if they wished to, their country was not in the worst shape in the world, it was better off than many other countries. But they wanted revenge of old disputes that took up the world's time and attention to solve and prevented the world from rallying resources to stop the Rwandan Genocide that was a conflict that was on the verge of exploding in a country where the poverty facing all of its people explained why radical ideas could easily catch on. 800,000 to 1,000,000 people died in the Rwandan genocide (that's about 20% of the total estimated population of Rwanda at the time) and the man who attempted to stop it, Romeo Dallaire says it happened because people were so distracted by the Balkans wars and by racist views of black Rwandans being less worthy of help than white ex-Yugoslavians. Dallaire is correct, the Rwandan Genocide could have been stopped if the wars in the former Yugoslavia had not erupted over petty differences and opportunism of nationalist political leaders in the former Yugoslavia. So I say that the arrogant and bigoted Balkans nationalists of any faction deserve no respect, only the victims and the families of the victims of those who actually suffered in the Balkans wars do deserve respect.--R-41 (talk) 02:25, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

You mentioned Mahatma Gandhi and indeed we had our Gandhi called Rugova. We tried everything to reach peacefully an agreement to overcome the apartheid, we tried it for many years without violence and only as a last resort Kosovars began to fight. This fight was for freedom and NATO helped us to free Kosova. What you try is revisionism as it is now a decade that Kosova was freed, so it's time to get over it, you won't turn the clock back. And never say again, we did not try it peacefully at first. --Tubesship (talk) 03:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to say one thing, since this is not a disscusion blog about poltics. Majority of Serbs hated Milosevic, for exaple see the protests in Serbia in 1996-1997 BEFORE the Kosovo War. Milosevicess key secret police advisor during the Kosovo war, Jovica Stanisic, was a CIA AGENT as this link will prove. . My point. I studied how the world works and i figured most of events in the Balkans and why they happened. Serbs are not to blame, so dont use wikipedia to attack a nation of people. Kosovo is a disputed region and should be treated as such. Also, please take a look at my evidence which is numerous, and remember when editing that the CIA was calling the shots in the ex-Yugoslavia and not the Serbian people who had little or no control in the political matter.Mike Babic (talk) 08:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

To Tubeship, I said that nationalism AS AN IDEOLOGY LEADS to violence because it involves separation, segregation, and assimilation of human beings into artificial factions and some people who do not identify with such factions do not want to be part of them, the solution then is partition or war. Nationalists MAY initially be peaceful but their ideology can never bring social justice for humanity. India's nationalism began as peaceful and now it is violent against Pakistan just as Pakistani nationalism initially tried to be peaceful and indeed initially got a peaceful partition from India, but there was a dispute over Kashmir. Even Germany's nationalism began as a liberal nationalism meant to respect human rights, but as everyone knows it mutated into a genocidal regime led by the Nazis. And in the words of a notable refugee from Nazi-run Germany, Albert Einstein, "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." By the way Tubeship, your use of the word "we", who does that refer to, "we" mean every Kosovar, does it mean every Albanian Kosovar, does it mean every human. Did every Kosovar, Albanian Kosovar, or every human "try it peacefully" at first? How can you assume such things? Besides Albanian and Serb Kosovars hated each other for decades, it is a documented fact in Tito-era studies acknowledged by the United Nations, ever since Albania became independent, Albanians and Serbs have quarreled over Kosovo. And as I so admire Gandhi I say that his refusal to support any act of violence in response to violence is notable. It is unfortunate that Kosovo's Gandhi, Rugova could not work things out, and I admire him for trying, but like Gandhi, one good person cannot truly control nationalism, nationalism ends up controlling society and the leaders must harness what already exists. In my country in 1995, Canadians and Quebeckers witnessed in a referendum on independence for Quebec the Quebec nationalists beginning the campaign saying that an independent Quebec would be inclusive, but when people like Aboriginals and English Canadians did not want to be part of an independent Quebec the campaign turned ugly. At the end, the Quebec nationalist leader, Jacques Parizeau, who had claimed at the beginning of the campaign that Quebec would be inclusive, blamed the defeat of the independence "yes" side on "money and the ethnic vote" and promised that French Quebeckers would eventually have their "revenge" on Canada. That was a change in a few MONTHS! So, inclusive nationalism commonly degenerates to exclusive nationalism, because the only truly inclusive nation is humankind. Also it is NEVER TIME to get over and forget mistakes, it is only time to acknowledge them, and find peaceful means to ensure that they do not happen again and get over old hatreds.--R-41 (talk) 11:52, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I will get back on focus, but here are some quotes for some nationalists to remember:

"To him in whom love dwells, the whole world is but one family." Buddha.

"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first." Charles de Gaulle, leader of the Free French forces in World War II.

"Borders are scratched across the hearts of men

By strangers with a calm, judicial pen,

And when the borders bleed we watch with dread

The lines of ink across the map turn red." Marya Mannes

"Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched." Guy de Maupassant.

"It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens." Baha'u'llah, founder of the Bahá'í Faith.--R-41 (talk) 12:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41, I see that and why you as a Canadian are biased when it comes to Kosova as you link its case to the referendum on independence for Quebec. Anything else than this bias cannot explain your far-fetched implication of Kosovas struggle to overcome apartheid with nationalism a la Nazi Germany. You say: “Also it is NEVER TIME to get over and forget mistakes, it is only time to acknowledge them, and find peaceful means to ensure that they do not happen again and get over old hatreds”, but would you dare to say this to the Holocaust survivors, too? Get your facts straight, there was a good reason why serbs were bombed out of Kosova by NATO. So dear R-41, stop equating victims and perpetrators and to Babic: Stop your conspiracy theory about the CIA, they were not responsible for the apartheid regime in Kosova but serbs were. --Tubesship (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes there are "good reasons" why Serbs were bombed. Two words come to mind, Camp Bondsteel and Kosovo mineral deposits. BTW, this should be added to the article. This is the citation, dare I ask someone who claims to be free from bias to enter this into the article. I would greatly appreciate the effort since I'm not sure that I could add it without being biased a little since I'm a citizen of Serbia. http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=l8437&PHPSESSID=83ni8uleaj70borm6b1ivh3nq4Mike Babic (talk) 18:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Tubesship stop saying "dare to say" to me. I am free to say whatever I want, I dare to challenge ignorance and ignorant views. As for your question for Holocaust survivors, I say a Holocaust survivor has the right to hate Nazism for its maniacal genocidal nationalism, racism, and totalitarianism. For those reasons I too spit on the Nazis' beliefs. But NO ONE, and yes, not even a holocaust survivor should promote hatred or revenge against Germans or Germany as a nation. I understand that they should be furious at what happened, but nationalist revenge against all Germans is not the solution because not all Germans supported the Holocaust and many Jews were Germans themselves. I say punish the true criminals, the ones' who did the killings and the beatings, not an entire group of people to whom a smaller group was associated. If you hate the Socialist Party of Serbia because of Slobodan Milosevic's actions and the party's policies and want people from that party punished for what they did, I would stand alongside you. NATO had the right to attack Serb military aggressors who were attacking and killing Albanian civilians. The UN mandate over Kosovo was the only viable solution to prevent the violence from continuing, and I think that the mandate should have been in place longer before any decision on independence was made, to let tensions sooth and allow a rational solution to the problems be discussed (such as a partitioned Kosovo as I mentioned earlier). Milosevic was a tyrant who needed to be stopped as well as the Serb ultranationalists. But if you want Serbia as a nation to pay for what you seem to claim all of Serbs supported, I stand against you. Tubesship, you made a prejudicial assumption that because I am a Canadian I cannot possibly understand what the war is like. Already I can see the segregated view of the world that you see. I knew an Albanian from Kosovo who told me of the horrors of the terrorism perpetrated by Serb nationalist paramilitaries in his village. They ordered everyone to leave their house in five minutes, or they and their house would be torched and burned town with them in it. That is horrible, so don't tell me that I am an ignorant fool, I learned of it through what an Albanian told me. But why then do you have superior judgement? Did you witness the war crimes in person yourself? If you did witness them yourself, I would respect your anger for being legitimately caused by personal grief, and for that I would be sorry for you. But if you did not, then you are just like me, a person who listened to someone else describing it. I do not speak for all Canadians on everything just as you cannot speak for all Kosovars or all Albanian Kosovars. Remember that the Kosovo Serbs are officially Kosovar citizens, you cannot ignore their wishes unless you wish for a segregated society.--R-41 (talk) 19:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

R-41 So you write you would dare to say: “Also it is NEVER TIME to get over and forget mistakes, it is only time to acknowledge them, and find peaceful means to ensure that they do not happen again and get over old hatreds”, to a Holocaust survivor?! Ok, I invite you to come with me, I know an old Jew who lost his whole family in Auschwitz. DARE to tell him that and look how you would feel by doing so. I don't think you could do as I think you are a humane person. --Tubesship (talk) 20:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC)