Talk:Pie menu

Image fair use?

Would that image be considered fair usage? --Dante Alighieri

Well it's just cropped from http://www.piemenus.com/

I guess it would be fair use...

Another meaning

I guess pie menu can also mean the menu at a restaurant that lists the pies available. lol FLaRN2005 02:18, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Not sure how serious you are, but... a quick Google for "pie menu" (with the quotes) seems to only give information about what the article is about, so I don't think your meaning is used very often, and there doesn't need to be a disambiguation link on top or anything like that. Retodon8 23:04, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Not sure how serious you are, but... this is why people make fun of Wikipedia contributors ... --69.139.198.89 05:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Front row?

The caption says "Mac OS X's Front Row uses a pie menu". Does it? I haven't used it, but that doesn't look like a pie menu to me. As the article points out, pie menus are designed to be used with a mouse, i.e., all items are equidistant from the cursor when first displayed.

F.R. is designed to be used with the Apple Remote, which isn't a mouse (or pointing device) at all. The first advantage of pie menus is listed as "size and proximity of menu items" -- does this apply to F.R. at all, if it isn't used with a mouse?

F.R. is cool, but it doesn't look like a pie menu to me.

Ersatz Pie Menus

I agree: the caption "Mac OS X's Front Row uses a pie menu" is wrong. The "Front Row" has none of the advantages of pie menus, which flow from Fitts' Law. A circular layout does not a pie menu make. It has to do with the way the input device operates, not how the screen looks. Pie menus can be used with other input devices than the mouse (like a touch screen "finger pie"), but the important thing is that the pointing device starts out in the center of the menu, and the direction of movement selects the item. So for example, the dial of an iPod is definitely not a pie menu, just because it's round. -Don Hopkins (pie menu developer since 1986).

Fair use rationale for Image:Piemenu2.png

Image:Piemenu2.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 09:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Palm keyboard based on pie menu principles

I think I remember seeing a third-party software keyboard for Palm PDA's that used the principles of a pie menu to present a full keyboard. It was a lot more complex than the examples on the page, it looked kind of square, and I admit I never used it, but I was just wondering if anyone knows what I'm talking about and could add it to the page.

Is Don Hopkins the inventor of pie menus?

There needs to be a citation to prove that Don Hopkins invented pie menus because reading the literature this statement appears false. See this academic paper on the history of pie menus written by Dr. Gordon Kurtenbach at Alias: [1]. Note especially that the above referenced paper mentions that the first implementation of pie menus is attributed to a system called PIXIE in 1969. If this true it then follows that Don Hopkins is not the inventor of pie menus. --Kristensson 02:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I removed the initial inventor part, for rationale see my above comment. --Kristensson 23:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Don Hopkins responds:

I have never claimed to have invented pie menus, although there are some publications out there that mistakenly make that claim. Mike Gallaher and I came up with the idea independently, on April 13, 1986. [2]

On April 13, 1986, Mike Gallaher and I were brainstorming about Emacs and user interface design, and we came up with the following idea, which seemed worth writing down and pursuing:

Clicking some sequence, say, double-right, lays down a help diagram showing what each direction of the mouse does. Moving outside the diagram exits this mode and removes the diagram. While in that mode, single clicks on the mouse keys cycle through the menu when the cursor is in the neutral area. Clicking while cursor is in one of the item's sectors selects that item.

menu is laid out so that all choices are initially equidistant from the cursor, so only direction is needed to choose one. The diagram stays as long as the button is held, while the cursor moves within it. The selection is indicated by the sector in which the cursor lies when the mouse button is released.

The output of the selection is the direction, perhaps

applications

mouse menu for inputting numbers from circular scale (say, degrees).

time: press left to set hour hand, middle to set minute hand.

I described the idea to Mark Weiser, my undergraduate advisor at the University of Maryland, and he encouraged me to write it up, implement the idea, and empirically evaluate it.

Mark Weiser said "I don't know of anything similar. Anyone else? Other comments?", and Ben Shneiderman replied "I finally got around to reading your preliminary ideas about theta menus and like the idea very much. I do not know of anything similar...you are on to something. You should build a few and try them out as improvements to existing strategies, then conduct an evaluation to get the data." We conducted an evaluation, and the data showed pie menus to be superior to linear menus, so I have refined the idea, developed and shipped many pie menu components and applications since that time.

I've listed and linked to at least eight implementations I can remember that I've written and published as free or open source software (Python, OpenLaszlo, JavaScript, ActiveX, TCL/Tk, NeWS (several different versions: NeWS 1.0, NeWS 1.1, SGI 4Sight, TNT 1.0, TNT 2.0), X10 "uwm" window manager, X10 prototype), and I also implemented the pie menus in proprietary applications such as UniPress Emacs, The Sims, SimCity, as well as other proprietary or unpublished implementations (ScriptX, Palm ConnectedTV, iPhone).

Don Hopkins

Cognitive Load

I disagree with this unsourced statement:

"Pie menus come with a higher cognitive load, because of the use of higher order cognitive processes associated with memory recall than with visual navigation."

Is there any published research to back the claim up? If not, then remove it. Muscle memory doesn't require a high cognitive load, but visual navigation does.

Remembering a direction and mousing ahead into a pie menu without looking at the screen requires a much lower cognitive load than engaging in a hand/eye feedback loop to hit a small rectangular target, which requires your entire visual attention.

Muscle memory enables users to select pie menu items whose direction they can remember, without looking at the screen. Visual navigation of linear menus requires the user to focus their attention on the screen in a hand/eye feedback loop, looking at the cursor and moving the mouse until they see the cursor has entered the desired rectangular target.

Linear menu targets are typically too small to hit without looking at the screen, because it's easy to move too far past the item without knowing it. Pie menu targets are wedge shaped and extend out to the edge of the screen, and selected purely by direction, not distance, so you can increase your selection accuracy by moving further out to the wider part of the slice, instead of missing the target by not moving far enough or moving too far.

This has been discussed in the various papers and articles linked on the web page, so it's not original research.

Don Hopkins —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC).

I was not referring to the use of muscle memory when I wrote that the cognitive load on recollection is higher than that of visual navigation. This has more to do with the recollection of what the menu holds rather than the direction used utilized to acces menu item X. But perhaps that should be moved to the context menus article because it is relevant to all types of menus that have its alternatives hidden? What do you think? First you have to remember that menu item X actually is there. One link to a relatively recent research paper on the phenomenon have been added. Please tell me if you want additional more recent or earlier resources. NiklasBr (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 11:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC).

It's unclear the meaning of the phrase "Pie menus come with a higher cognitive load", since there are several referents in the previous paragraph. Compared to what? linear context menus? nested pie menus? toolbars and menu bars? If it's the latter, then yes, this should be moved to the context menus article. Diego (talk) 13:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Where are the pie menus?

The state of this article is very indicative of the state of the pie menu in general; an old idea with many proponents in theory but still struggling for relevance in reality. To increase its encyclopedic usefulness, it should be way lighter on the "advantages of the pie menu" soapboxing and a lot more robust on describing the actual, real-world uses of pie menus: video game UIs. Most people know pie menus as the "late 90s LucasArts adventure game UI" or the "Sims UI". Please stop burying this information in order to give your pet concept more utility software cred. It's not working. 80.221.34.183 (talk) 00:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)