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May 18

Japanese Wind Bell (風鈴)

On Japanese bells that they put outside their homes (in traditional homes), they have a strip of paper attached to the clanger to attract the wind and make the bell ring. I was given one by a friend about a year ago and have hung it outside my back door. Unfortunately, the rain has started to erode the paper away. I am not in Japan now, and am not in a position to ask anyone Japanese about it, but does this happen in Japan? I was there for ten years and certainly don't remember ever seeing this. If it doesn't happen, how do they stop it? Or do they just replace the strip of paper periodically?--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Since no one else has bitten yet: Wind chime doesn't say. Maybe you'll get lucky if you ask on that discussion page. (Does the Japanese Wikipedia [1] have a Forum or Refdesk?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.24.129 (talk) 08:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I've tried, but I seem to need a new username for it, as it won't accept my current one. What's happening there? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I can't see if there is a RefDesk or not, and to be honest, I can't even remember how I found this one, it was so long ago. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 18:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Japanese RefDesk is here: [2] --Auximines (talk) 19:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Goth vs. Emo

Do goths typically get super-offended if you call them emo? And if so, why? I know they're two distinctly different subcultures, but they also have a lot of things in common (at least IMO). And why do people associated with emo receive a bigger backlash than goths? Whip it! ^{Now whip it good!} 05:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

OR warning: For the last question about the backlash, I think it's because emo is seen as just being a bunch of depressed people listening to depressing music whereas goths are more of a hard rock sort of crowd with a macabre spin. Dismas|^(talk) 08:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you make assumptions about someone, and those assumptions don't really fit in with their self-image, chances are you're coming off as a bit of a jerk. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if you see someone dressed in black and wearing some make-up and feel the urge to say "hey, goth dude" or "hey, emo dude," you probably are a bit of a jerk. A well-meaning and non-malicious jerk, maybe, but still. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 10:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, but if someone goes out of their way to dress according to a certain convention, are they not making an effort to be seen as fitting into the label commonly attached to that convention? If I were to impersonate a policeman, am I not wanting to be seen as a cop? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Right, and if you go to a cop and say "hey, security guard dude", chances are that your faulty assumption doesn't endear you to the cop. The point is, you can probably interact with that individual (especially if the individual is not a police officer) without making the presumptuous assumption. If you feel an urge to label someone, a lot of people find that annoying -- especially if they don't feel the label fits them. I mean, yeah, you can certainly present a reasonable argument as to why getting annoyed isn't very smart, and chances are you would be right... But if the goal is to get along with the person in question, that's probably not going to help things any. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 13:12, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a reasonable assumption that a person who dresses to type wishes to be the type. Recognising the character they are trying to play is, if anything, a recognition of their efforts. It is a faulty recognition which could produce unpleasantness. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think this documentary may answer your questions. Tempshill (talk) 15:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

As someone who's had first-hand experience to these subcultures, I thought I'd throw in my two cents. Goths and Emos are very similar as far as overall appearance; indeed, some persons may be characterized as both Goth and Emo. What little differences there are usually pertain to the extremes of both subcultures. A Goth will be more likely to revel in excessively elaborate fashion styles and have a greater affinity to darker music (or aptly named Gothic metal. Emos are not as elaborate and can be characterized by hair dyes, piercings, and a preference for hardcore, metalcore or Emo music. Still, these stereotypes are not necessarily conclusive; each person has unique behavioral traits and preferences. As a high school senior, I've met a lot of Goths and Emos and I can tell you that they are not all the same, in spite of having similar appearances or musical preferences. Finally, without a doubt, Emos are the most hated group, one of the only ones I have ever seen people make death threats towards, mainly because of their self-loathing and angst-ridden <sic> lifestyles. I'd almost go so far as to say that the prejudice held towards them parallels racism and anti-Semitism. With these in mind, yes, Goths will be offended if you call them Emo, simply because of the derogatory connotation the latter group holds.--WaltCip (talk) 16:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Monkeys

I watched a docmentary once, it showed a troop of monkeys who had dognapped puppies, raised them and used them to protect the troop from predators. This was some time ago and i believed the troop to be Baboons although i cannot be sure. Can anybody help me in confirming this- location, troop species and dog species would be much appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161battery (talk • contribs) 10:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

If you had ever seen a troop of baboons you would know that no dog could stand against them.86.200.135.129 (talk) 14:05, 18 May 2009 (UTC)DT

The OP is not suggesting that the dogs stood against the baboons.Popcorn II (talk) 16:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course not! But why should baboons want a dog to protect them when they can eat a dog for breakfast ? (That means a baboon can easily destroy a dog)... and especially so when you note that they operate in troops of 30 to 40 animals. It would take a brave (foolhardy) animal of any size to upset a troop!!86.197.171.22 (talk) 15:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)DT

Lol as i have said i believe the troop to be Baboons but i am not sure, obviously you do not have the answers i am looking for which means you have nothing constructive to add! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161battery (talk • contribs) 05:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I've not been able to find the documentary referenced by the OP, but I found something that reminds me of an old saying: What matters isn't the size of the dog in the fight, but the the size of the fight in the dog. 152.16.51.122 (talk) 05:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

nothing to see here

ok thank you for your ansers I have deleted them now Jwg1994 (talk) 14:37, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Hereis a link to what was here. – Elliott(Talk|Cont)  17:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Didn't anyone find that question odd? anyone?  Buffered Input Output 12:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It looks like one person either thought it a prank, or had enough concern that they gave an answer which - if followed - would have pretty much told everyone where it was. I find the qustion odd, too, but doubt anyone would seriously turn to the Reference Desk for that advice. the time of acquiring the screen name, and from where, would have been very traceable, if time-consuming.Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC))

O.o That was mighty weird.

Is this a scam?

I saw this in Craiglist by a car dealership:

"$587 Down & $63 A Week- 100% NOT BASED ON CREDIT! NO Jokes.---This program does work!---Your credit score does not matter here!---Approvals are based on income and time on the job."

How does this work? What is the catch? --Reticuli88 (talk) 13:55, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

As a starting point, you can bet that the loan has a high APR and a long term. They'll require proof of employment (income/time on job). If they rip you off enough on the price of the car, the risk that you default while "underwater" on the loan is reasonably low. Any losses on such loans are (presumably) more than offset by the high rates on the performing loans. -- Coneslayer (talk) 14:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You don't give the price of the car, the interest rate or the term of the loan. If that's because the dealer didn't give them, then it is definitely a scam. You need that information to determine if it is a good deal or not. --Tango (talk) 14:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The advertisement did not provide price of car nor the interest rate. --Reticuli88 (talk) 14:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Then the default answer is, "Yes, this is a scam." Tempshill (talk) 15:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

After 5 years, you've paid $17,000. After 10 years, over $33,000. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Buddhists

Why do Buddhists meditate together? If you slap a Buddhist on the face, will he offer the other side? Mr.K. (talk) 15:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Mu. Tempshill (talk) 15:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Mu?

Mr.K. (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The answer is to unask the question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.255.228.5 (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

As one Chan master once famously said (about someone other than the OP, admittedly): "strike him dead with one swing of the stick." --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, a straight answer for once. Buddhists meditate both alone and together. The advantage of meditating together is partly for the shared experience, but also that one feels more obliged to be disciplined and quiet, rather than restless, so this helps the meditation. As for the slap question, this is not a tradition as it is with Christians (and I have seen a Christian do this), and I would think the slappee would be more likely to try to engage the slapper in conversation, depending very much on the mental state of each person at the time. There is, however, an apocryphal story of a master repeatedly asking his disciple about the sound of one hand clapping. Eventually the disciple got so tired of this question that he slapped his master on the face. The master beamed with delight and said "At last!"--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Some Christians seem to favor the older passage about "An eye for an eye" rather than turning the other cheek, judging by examples of punches thrown in response to a slap. (The police inexplicable fail to record the faith of the participants in brawls.:-) 71.236.24.129 (talk) 08:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course, a punch for a slap is not the same as "an eye for an eye". A slap for a slap would be much closer... Matt Deres (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Please don't feed the trolls. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:45, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Magic Eye

Hello, I need a good guide to view magic eye images. I have read the article but I still am unable to. --Drogonov (talk) 16:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I guess this (http://www.vision3d.com/methd02.html) site won't say anything you've not read but worth a read perhaps? ny156uk (talk) 18:00, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The way I do it is to put my eyes out of focus so that I'm not focusing on the image itself but on an imaginary point behind it. Just let your eyes go all fuzzy, is the only way I can describe it. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 18:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, you have to relax your eyes so that you are looking through the image as if it's made of glass. Try focusing a short distance behind it and try shifting your focus so that you are focusing at different distances beyond it and you should suddenly see the fuzzy mess start to take 3D form. When you first 'get it' the temptation is to snap your focus onto the paper/book image, but this means you lose the 3D image straight away so it takes a bit of practice.Popcorn II (talk) 19:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Difficult to master but I'm begining to get it. Thanks. --Drogonov (talk) 00:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It is possible that you are one of perhaps 20%5% of the population who simply doesn't see in 3D. It's fairly common for babies to be born a little cross-eyed - and they almost always grow out of it - but if that doesn't happen within a few months, the part of the brain that provides the ability to see in 3D using stereopsis doesn't develop. Those people are unable to understand the 3D effect in magic-eye pictures no matter what. Do you find that the world looks 'flatter' when you close one eye? If not then this is almost certainly the reason. But if that's not the case then the trick is to notice the repetition in the image - and relax your vision so you start seeing double. Then the idea is to have the 'doubled' image of one repeat of the pattern line up exactly with the next repeat of the pattern. When you do that, the 3D effect should suddenly 'jump out' at you. It's vital that the picture is fairly exactly horizontal (so the pattern repetition happens along a line that's parallel to the line running through the center of your two eyes). There are several other techniques offered in our Autostereogram article. In ASCII stereogram there are some examples that work with simple ASCII text such as this one:

                     O              O
 OIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJFOIWEQPOISDFBKJF
 EDGHOUIEROUIYWEVDGHOXUIEROIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWEVDGHEOXUIEOIYWE
 KJBSVDBOIWERTBAKJBSVEDBOIWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBAKJBSOVEDBOWRTBA
 SFDHNWECTBYUVRGSFDHNYWECTBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRGSFDHCNYWECBUVRG
 HNOWFHLSFDGWVRGHNOWFGHLSFDWVRGHNOWSFGHLSDWVRGHNLOWSFGLSDWVRG
 YPOWVXTNWFECHRGYPOWVEXTNWFCHRGYPOWNVEXTNFCHRGYPWOWNVETNFCHRG
 SVYUWXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGTWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETUISVYUWVXRGWVETU
 WVERBYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIAWEYUIVWVERBEYOIWEYUIVWLVERBEOIWEYUI
 EUIOETOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUINWEBYOEUIOEWTOUNWEBYOETUIOEWOUNWEBY
 WFVEWVETN9PUW4TWFVEWPVETN9UW4TWFVETWPVET9UW4TWFBVETWPET9UW4T
 NOUWQERFECHIBYWNOUWQXERFECIBYWNOUWFQXERFCIBYWNOFUWFQXRFCIBYW
 VEHWETUQECRFVE[VEHWERTUQECFVE[VEHWQERTUQCFVE[VEOHWQERUQCFVE[
 UIWTUIRTWUYWQCRUIWTUYIRTWUWQCRUIWTXUYIRTUWQCRUIBWTXUYRTUWQCR
 IYPOWOXNPWTHIECIYPOWTOXNPWHIECIYPONWTOXNWHIECIYLPONWTXNWHIEC
 R9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYBR9UHWVETPUNRQYB

In this case, you need to cross your eyes just enough to have the two 'O's at the top double-image so that the rightmost doubled image of the left-hand O lines up with the leftmost doubled image of the right-hand O. When that happens, the repeated patterns of text should also line up - except for in the few places where the text is further or closer in the 'virtual' image. SteveBaker (talk) 01:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Books look identical with one eye closed or both open. It seems as though I don't have the ability (sad face). Though I can cross my eyes and get the double image effect fairly easily, I cannot see a 3d image. --Drogonov (talk) 08:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Me neither. And I like to get my own back on those that can see the images, by using an Emperor's new clothes metaphor. The suggestion that no-one can really see anything in these images drives people wild until they realise my tongue is firmly in my cheek. --Dweller (talk) 10:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for the image.Good stuff. cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 14:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI, 10draftsdeep has just cunningly demonstrated that there is indeed a discernable 3D image in that pile of text up there...by recognising that this was cunning, I'm confirming that I too see the "Hidden Image" by posting this arcane acknowledgement. Hence, at least two people here can do it - and those who think it's impossible to see a 3D image there should probably read what I have to say below quite carefully!

It is certainly possible (indeed, likely) that at least one or two people who are following this thread literally lack the ability to see in three dimensions using stereopsis. It is thought that between 2% and 5% of people may have this problem! (I said 20% above - but that was incorrect - I was thinking "One in twenty" - I checked, it's 5%).

Stereoblindness covers this (albeit briefly). Amblyopia is about a more general problem - but actually explains things better...and it even points out that failure to detect 3D effects in autostereograms is a symptom of the problem. It has long been thought that people who fail to develop stereopsis in the first few months of life are forever doomed to seeing only in two dimensions (although they are hardly ever aware of the fact - and there are some other cues that enable some degree of depth perception without the ability to perform stereopsis). People who either 'grew out' of the original 'wandering eye' or 'squint' problem or were treated for it and can technically see correctly - may never have developed the brain circuitry to make use of it. What's interesting and new is that quite recently a few people with this condition have managed to train their brains to see in 3D again!

If you have this condition - I STRONGLY advise you to seek medical advice because with practice and determination, you could find yourself exposed to a whole new way of seeing the world...which you've got to admit would be kinda exciting! There was a radio interview with the lady who first managed to do this - and she is extremely excited about her new-found ability. There are some very specific exercises to try - but it takes time.

SteveBaker (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok I think i'll bring this up with an optician. Do I just say I can't see magic eye images? Or do I mention one of the conditions you've mentioned? Thanks for the assistance. --Drogonov (talk) 11:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that might raise a chuckle and a "Well, lots of people can't do that - don't worry about it". I think you'd be better off saying that you suspect that you have "stereo blindness" - let the optician determine whether that's true and if so, whether the condition that caused it has subsequently 'gone away'. Whether basic opticians of the kind you find doing routine eye tests and selling overpriced sunglasses have the equipment that tests for that - I have no clue. Whether a normal optician would be able to suggest the necessary exercises is also something of an unknown. The place I learned about this phenomenon was in relation to a lady who is often called "Stereo Sue" in the literature. It was on NPR here, and also here - and subsequently here. SteveBaker (talk) 12:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it is possible to be unable to see magic eyes without having stereoblindness - I offer myself as case in point. I can sometimes see that there is something there in a magic eye but I can never get it to come into focus. However, I can see in 3D - I can see a distinct flatness when I look at certain things with only one eye open compared to both open. --Tango (talk) 12:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll add that it takes a bit of practice and time. Once I get the proper focus, I can generally see any of the images right away, but not before at least a minute or two of adjusting my eyes for the first "image of the day". Even though I saw it yesterday, it took me once again a solid minute of staring and adjusting my gaze to see it today. cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

When I was first shown such images (many years ago when their quality was poorer), I doubted the veracity of the (then few) people who said they could see an image, and it was not until someone explained how they were printed that I worked out how to unfocus my eyes to see the image. I practised until I could see the images almost immediately, but I have now lost the skill. The image above doesn't seem to work in some screen resolutions? Dbfirs 20:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Weird symbol on cameras

I've noticed I've seen the same symbol on many SLR cameras. It's a circle with a line bisecting it, looking like the Greek letter phi. It doesn't seem to mark any sort of control or display, it just is there. What is this symbol and what purpose does it serve on the camera? JIP | Talk 19:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Where on the camera do you see it? Near the shutter release, the aperture adjustment, the shutter speed, the distance indicator, or where? If on the top or bottom it might indicate the film plane. Edison (talk) 19:08, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

It's usually on the top of the camera, somewhere near the prism. The only camera I can check at the moment is my own Olympus E-520, and there it's just next to the back left corner of the prism, between the prism and the flash pop-up button. The film plane explanation sounds plausible but it also appears on digital cameras. Is it there for historical reasons? JIP | Talk 19:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

That's the location of the Film plane - i.e., the location where the film or sensor is positioned, and where the light from the lens will converge to be in sharp focus. --Zerozal (talk) 19:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick answer! I knew it had to have a reason for being there, but I couldn't figure out what it was. JIP | Talk 19:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Note that in photography, focus distances are normally measured from the film/sensor plane. For example, the distance markings on your lens, and the "minimum focus distance" in its specifications, will be measured from there. -- Coneslayer (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

After the Apocalypse...

Once civilization collapses, what would be the best way to get gasoline out of service station pumps which no longer work electrically? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Serious answer... Hand operated pump sounds like a good way, unless your gas station is on a tall hill. Then you can siphon. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 19:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Humor...If I misinterpreted and you don't actually need to move the fuel into another tank, you just need it out of the gas station tank, I think a road flare would be of use, though the tank would probably not be in the best shape when you are done. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 19:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I suggest a hand fuel pump. Be aware that gasoline goes stale, usually in under a year. (Faster if it's got a alcohol in it.)

So be prepared to live in a post-gasoline world shortly after the Apocalypse. (On the plus side : No boring attempts to conserve it!)

Perhaps you should start thinking about converting a vehicle to Wood gas APL (talk) 19:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, my intention was trying to get it into some sort of vehicle. Motorcycle for quick getaways from dangerous cannibals, trucks for hauling stuff liberated from empty stores.  :) I figured that the gas would probably not be viable after a while. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

And where would one living post-apocalypse be able to find a hand fuel pump? A sporting goods store? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think they're often used to fuel (or defuel) small yachts, so if you're in a coastal region, I recommend heading down to the nearest marina to try to pillage one. Probably other useful stuff there as well.APL (talk) 20:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Camping equipment might also have some, though those would be designed for water most likely. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:50, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

When people talk about gas going stale or getting gummy they're talking about running an engine on it, but after the apocalypse you'll probably be engaged in much humbler pursuits where the gasoline's flammability alone will be useful. In The Road, the protagonist just lowers a jar on a string to get gas out of an underground tank. --Sean 20:41, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the Straight Dope article mentioned above doesn't actually answer the question of how long the gasoline in a sealed (well, "nominally sealed" as in normal, pre-apocalypse circumstances) underground gas station tank will last in sufficient state to allow a car or truck engine to run on it. It might actually be that an electric vehicle might be worth its weight in spam, if you live next to a working unattended nuclear reactor that has been left in the "on" position, or perhaps next to a wood-burning electric generator. Tempshill (talk) 22:43, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Harder to find spare parts for, though. I wonder if diesel lasts longer? I mentioned Wood gas because I've heard of gas vehicles converted to run by cooking sawdust over a wood stove and piping the fumes directly into the engine. This is probably a major hassle, but after the gas runs out it might remain usable for some time. APL (talk) 00:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Stale gas doesn't stop your car from running - it just makes it a little harder to start and run a little rough. You can always raid some abandoned car parts stores for octane booster. I think you'd still be able to run an older car with adjustable (non-computerized) carburettor for many years on the old gas lying around in gas stations. A hand pump would be OK - but a bucket on the end of a chain would be easier. You could probably cobble together a pump from old car parts - a fuel pump, some thin plastic tubing and a car battery would do just fine. SteveBaker (talk) 03:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Forget gasoline go hunting for Diesel engine cars and trucks. If you run out of diesel fuel from the gas stations, you can convert the motor to run on canola oil (other vegetable and food oils reportedly take more of an conversion effort). Flush out the engine and change all the filters before you fill it in. Find a good manual on Diesel engine adjustment. If your civilization collapse didn't kill off your local auto mechanic they should be able to do it. This can be done without too much effort and if you want to, you can then take your time developing the wood gas car. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 07:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Which reminds me, remember to keep a recent Wikipedia database dump / backup on DVD in a safe, together with a small electric generator and a laptop, for postapocalyptic use. Jørgen (talk) 13:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

An electric generator will take fossil fuels. Perhaps you would consider a more environmentally friendly solar panel? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 14:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You don't really need to worry about the environment if most of the human race has been wiped out. --Tango (talk) 17:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Along with most of the infrastructure used to create petroleum based fuels. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 18:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

If it remains usable, you could run a computer for a very long time on the gas sitting around in filling stations, and have plenty to drive around with besides.

Neither the solar panel or the gasoline is a long-term solution you can reliably pass onto your children, however. Eventually the panel will fail and the fuel will run out, and there would be no way to replace either. APL (talk) 01:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Can I point out though that computers rapidly become pretty useless in such a world. The best use of them in such a situation that I can imagine is as a giant book, but even then, there are far less difficult ways to do that. Computers are a wonderful technology that really only do their thing in a world that is built to accommodate them. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

If you really wanted a computer - one of those OLPC gizmo's would be your best bet. You get a hand-cranked charger - no moving parts - very rugged case and ad-hoc networking with other such boxes (so no Internet infrastructure required). If you could find a warehouse full of them so you'd have plenty of spares, you could find uses for them. SteveBaker (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The hand-crank was dropped from the design fairly early on. There are some other power generation options though. More information at OLPC XO-1. --LarryMac | Talk 19:50, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I mentioned a computer because someone mentioned an offline Wikipedia copy. Which would be handy. Wikipedia can be a great resource for people suddenly in unfamiliar situations. APL (talk) 14:57, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Especially if they still have pokemon cards in the postapocalyptic future. TastyCakes (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

With a bit of work on the connections, you could run a formerly electric pump from a car engine. One gas station would have enough to supply you for several years (depending on how many others survived nearby), giving you time to raid nearby stores for other supplies you will need in the long term. Liberate a fuel tanker and bring in supplies from other gas stations as yours runs low. While you still have fuel to generate electricity, print out WP and some science encyclopedias as the foundation knowledge base of your new civilsation.KoolerStill (talk) 20:36, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the message is to work like mad to avoid the collapse of civilization. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Hosepipe. Get a section of hosepipe, block one end off, tie the other end to a long piece of string. Drop the hosepipe down the pipe hole, pull it back up with the string. Repeat. 78.146.162.232 (talk) 14:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

A profession question

What kind of occupation would make the most sense if one likes to read anything and everything voraciously? The only thing said person has tried and failed to finish due to lack of interest is the dictionary. Thank you, The Reader who Writes (talk) 21:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You failed to finish the dictionary???? I read dictionaries before I go to bed - it's a wonderful way to switch my mind off for the night!--TammyMoet (talk) 08:25, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Me too, but not anymore. I finished the thick Oxford companion in about 3 months. It was an addiction. - DSachan (talk) 09:01, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

All just to find out in the end that the zebra did it? To be honest, I saw it coming, but aardvark was an early suspect. Matt Deres (talk) 14:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you turned two pages at once - there was a final twist in the tale - Zygmunt Żuławski did it. SteveBaker (talk) 23:11, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

My "bathroom books" over the years have included several dictionary-like things, such as George R. Stewart's American Place-names and Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. One needn't remember anything between sessions. —Tamfang (talk) 22:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Being a security guard/night watchman usually allows plenty of time to sit around reading.Popcorn II (talk) 21:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

You could work in the Press office for a major firm - lots of companies have staff whose job it is to look for references of the business in media (positive and negative) though the type of reading is not for fun so much as scanning. More obvious (but presumably harder to attain) they could be a book-critic, an editor for a publisher or a proof-reader (for novels/texts). There are many many jobs which are heavy on reading but rarely do you 'choose' what you read (to my knowledge). ny156uk (talk) 22:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you would be cut out to be a writer. I have heard it said that the best way to learn to write -- is to read. So, paradoxically, your occupation may be in writing, with reading only serving an ancillary function. Bus stop (talk) 22:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I've heard plenty of writers say that reading a lot is very important. Particularly for writing fiction, I think. --Tango (talk) 22:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Speaking as a writer, I kind of agree. They say that you need to write a million bad words out of your system to get to the good ones, and there's truth to that -- it takes a lot of practice to become a good writer. But I think you can probably cut down on the amount of "bad words" in you by learning some good ones, and while writing stupid crap and then realizing that it was stupid, and then later on realizing precisely why it was stupid played an important role in my own learning process, I've probably learned more from reading something I thought was awesome and then figuring out why it's awesome. That's a kind of a semi-active process, though: you need to pay attention to what you're reading and analyze it as you go, and if you've never done that before, it can be difficult to figure out just what it is the writer is doing on any given page, and why -- how the writer is manipulating the reader, essentially. Once you get it down, it becomes second nature, and it's really, really useful when you're writing things yourself, because there's no point in reinventing the wheel. Another important point is that if you don't know what's good and what's bad, you're not going to write very well -- and the only way to tell the difference is to read enough to refine your taste. And, of course, the more you know, the more you have to work with when you're actually writing regardless of what it is you actually write -- journalism, fiction, literary criticism (in which case reading a lot would be an obvious prerequisite), or whatever. So, yeah, reading is really, really important for a writer.

That said, though, being a voracious reader doesn't automatically mean writing is the thing for you. I mean, I'm not at all sure there's a correlation between the two; the processes involved are pretty different, and so are the pleasures. My point is that just reading a lot doesn't by itself indicate that you would do well as a writer, or perhaps more importantly, that you would particularly enjoy being one. It's certainly worth a shot if the idea seems appealing, but it's a little like saying that maybe you'd like to be a movie director because you like watching movies a lot or maybe you'd like to be a cook because you really like to eat well. Sure, you might, but it's not really the same thing.

And yes, careerwise it can absolutely be a hard slog. My years of freelance journalism and other gigs are starting to be behind me, and I now find myself doing pretty cool work where I can actually sit down and write and really satisfy that creative urge, but it certainly took me a pretty long time -- about a decade, really -- to get to a point where my writing is actually providing me with a steady income and I don't have to supplement that with other work. But it's worth noting that all the weird little gigs I did before, all the stupid pop culture crap I crammed into my brain over the years did a pretty wonderful job of preparing me precisely for this kind of work. Still, if I had children to support, it would've been hard to reach this point. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 00:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Fact-checker and copy editor for Wikipedia, though those positions currently offer no pay, health benefits, or accolades. You didn't mention how good this person's memory is — that makes a difference. Tempshill (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, your help is much appreciated. I do write some fiction, but it does not seem to be a very secure job to have. My memory is fine, although I can be absentminded at times. Thanks again, The Reader who Writes (talk) 00:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Proofreader for translators would be a good one. You would get things from practically every field under the sun, that way. There are websites where you can register for free, and documents then get sent to you by email. You read them at home, correct any grammatical errors, and send them back. Easy job and very interesting sometimes. Being a professional translator it's also another aspect of the work I do. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 00:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

They are becoming rather rare. It's hard enough to pay translators with what companies are budgeting these days. Many agencies have cut proofreading. (Judging from the many typos and mistakes I find in books, magazines and newspapers, so have many other former employers for this service.) 71.236.24.129 (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

True. But my main agent still asks me to proofread other translators' works, even though they never proofread mine. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if there are jobs with publishers - going through the proofs of a gazillion amateur books looking for one worth publishing? If nothing else, that might finally be the thing that blunts your reading voracity! SteveBaker (talk) 01:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, sure, a publisher's reader. Depending on the size and nature of the publisher, the same person may also work as a book editor, but typically the job goes to an editor's assistant who separates the wheat from the chaff so the editor doesn't have to. Going through the slush pile can be a hell of a job, since the crap/gold ratio is pretty terrible (but at least you don't need to read through the entire manuscript to realize it's crap)... -- Captain Disdain (talk) 07:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Librarians have to do a lot of reading. They get to read more summaries than full books, though. You could start a book club (like this guy [3] and suggest books you read to your subscribers. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 07:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Given the place where this was asked, I'm surprised reference librarian wasn't mentioned sooner. -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 17:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd say lawyer. But the fact that you couldn't finish the dictionary is worrying - many/most legal papers make the dictionary read like a thriller. --Dweller (talk) 10:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I recommend the judgments of Lord Denning, then. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Literary agent?

If OP goes for that last one and actually reads the manuscripts he might be the first and only one IMHO. They usually skim or ask for a summary and then do the promoting (don't get your hopes up too high on that either) and negotiating. Not that someone who did a thorough job wouldn't be most welcome. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 07:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

May 19

song !?

theres an old song .. and i dont remember much of it.. all i remember is the line "and then she told him of the day she would wed" the song is about a boy and a girl who grew up being best friends, they always had a crush on eachother ,and then when they grew up he was in love with her but then she got married to another guy. i heard the song the other night, and just cant't remember what its called. now i'm from Newfoundland so more then likley thats where it came from. but anyways , i really need to figure it out.. its been driving me crazy! help !? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amandadawe (talk • contribs) 00:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You'd definitely stand a better chance of getting a good answer if you asked this on our Entertainment ref.desk. They are amazingly good at this sort of question. SteveBaker (talk) 01:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like the story in The Girl I Left Behind.75.91.102.188 (talk) 01:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Huh. Seems like writing a new song in a folk style, and giving it the same name as a famous folk song, would be a needlessly confusing thing to do! :P 80.41.20.78 (talk) 17:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

OR - Meaning

Pardon my ignorance of leet, but what does 'OR' mean? 'Original Research'?--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, usually. See WP:OR, which is Wikipedia shorthand for Wikipedia:No original research. Usually if you see a little abbreviated word like this used on talk pages it has a WP: link shortcut equivalent... WP:NPOV, WP:V, etc. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:54, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

If you're thinking of my anonyms.swer to the "Goth vs. Emo" question above, I meant Original Research. Basically Wikipedia shorthand for saying that I don't have a source for what I was saying and that it is my own original research (opinion). Dismas|^(talk) 03:03, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG! ~EdGl ★ 03:29, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Two letter acronyms certainly have to be important, even TLAs can often be confused with one another so XTLAs are used for the avoidance of doubt. Wikipedia has its own special load of acronyms so two letter ones can be used more often but WP:OR would be more specific, see Wikipedia:Glossary for a lot of other wiki'ed acronyms and terms. Dmcq (talk) 08:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Glossary? TLDR. --Dweller (talk) 09:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear, TLDR isn't in that glossary, I'm sure it should be added along with a number of others I've noticed being used here so there is a definitive list ;-) Oh and by the way that's an emoticon, a type of smiley Dmcq (talk) 10:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Clocks

Why do most photos of clocks/watches depict the time as ten to two? 117.194.224.8 (talk) 04:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I've seen somewhere that it's because it's a near-symmetrical position, and thus pleasing to the eye, and it allows the manufacturers' logo to be seen without a hand obscuring it.-gadfium 05:15, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The position (or ten past ten, which is similar) is called a "smiling watch"[4].-gadfium 05:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

This is asked probably about every six months or so. If you search the archives, you should be able to find the old answers. We even used to have an article about it before it was deleted due to lack of notability or some such thing. Dismas|^(talk) 05:28, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it was a victory for the deletionists – one of their most egregious, in my opinion. The deletion discussion is here. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 05:30, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

• For anyone who is interested here's an archived version of the article--Drogonov (talk) 08:26, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I know this has been asked many times before, but none of them managed to come up with really satisfactory answers. A Google search showed me explanations like "the time of Abraham Lincoln's death" and "time the inventor of the clock died"... You get the picture... And even for the "manufacturer logo" explanation, I find that there are lots of other hand positions that can not get in the logo's way (9:15 or 2:45, for example). I'm still looking for a truly unique quality about the 10:10 or 1:50 position. And, here's another question: Are both positions (10:10 and 1:50) used equally frequently? Thanks in advance. 117.194.224.126 (talk) 07:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen it at 1.50, I've only ever seen it at 10.10 – or 10.8 to be more precise. I think the best answer you're going to get is the first one – there's a pleasing symmetry to it which shows the clock off to the best advantage in the shop. I also heard that it was beneficial for the watch itself to be kept in this position, but I doubt that is true. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It sounds to me that this is a notable subject though the title of 10:08 probably is not a good one since there are a number of close alternatives. WP:NOTE says nothing about needing an explanation for something to be notable. It has been researched a few times, the research seems reliable enough and isn't just a blog, and a number of possible explanations have been given which may or may not be right, and lots of people are interested, that's quite enough. The delete discussion seemed to confuse reliability of the explanations or the p[articular times with reliability of the research. Dmcq (talk) 08:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Cecil Adam's Column covered this a while back.APL (talk) 13:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't necessarily need an article of its own. One reason why it shouldn't necessarily have an article of its own is the difficulty of coming up with a suitable name for such article. Could we call it "Watch or clock faces in advertising"? I don't think that is so great, but it is the best I can think up. But clearly Clock face, which also has a redirect from Watch face, should include material on just this subject, but I don't think that it presently does. And a "See also" section in other related articles could link to just this sub-section. A little verbal note indicating the nature of the subject matter available at that link would also make this information more available to those seeking it. Bus stop (talk) 14:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The explanation for 10:08 is given briefly in Watch#Analog. Astronaut (talk) 15:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm a strong inclusionist - but even so - the 10:08 article was poorly named, had no references and could just as easily (and usefully) become a part of other articles (as indeed it subsequently has). The information it contained needed to be included - AND referenced - but the article itself deserved to be deleted. SteveBaker (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Links on Talk Pages

Very often (I'm not sure - it might be all the time) when I click on a link on a Talk Page, my browser downloads a PHP file and doesn't take me to the link. Is there any way I can stop this happening (using Google Chrome now, but I also found it on Firefox 3.1). --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I've had similar problems with IE, perhaps you should ask this at the computing reference desk. --Drogonov (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It's really a help desk issue. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I get this with FireFox occasionally: I think it is a connection or server lag issue. An incomplete connection causes the browser to see the raw PHP and attempt to download it. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Company names

Though I am in the UK this may be an international issue, but has anybody got any idea why long established companies like Norwich Union, HSA, British Steel etc feel the need to change their company name. It must cost a fortune to do so.--81.170.40.155 (talk) 10:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Norwich Union is changing because it has been bought by Aviva, which presumably feels that it will be better placed if all of its operations worldwide have the same name. I appreciate the point you're making - it is expensive and appears to waste the goodwill and recognition value of the departing name. I guess the owners think the long term benefits outweigh the short term costs & loss.

HSA - "part of a family of organisations with mutual values who have joined together to form Simplyhealth. During 2009, we will be changing our name to Simplyhealth as we believe this better describes who we are and the services we offer." according to their website.

British Steel - bought out by Corus. Same explanation as for Norwich Union, except to add that British Steel had such a crappy history prior to privatisation that I'd guess there was little goodwill attached to the name.

There's a little more at Rebranding --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Note Norwich Union has been part of Aviva since July 2002 and has been trading on the stock-markets as Aviva for a number of years too (since that date). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Some companies build up long long names which, when the nature of their business changes, appears a little cumbersome.

In Taiwan, in recent years there has been another interesting phenomenon - political renaming. Due to historical reasons, many companies and other institutions which operate only in Taiwan are named "China so-and-so" or "Chinese so-and-so". The more independence-leaning politicians find this inappropriate, and in the early 2000s there was a spate of changes: see, for some example, Desinicization. The trend has apparently halted since the election of a Chinese reunification-leaning President and parliament last year. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but what took you so long to reply (ha ha!)--81.170.40.155 (talk) 11:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

...and where the h ell did that blue box come from?--81.170.40.155 (talk) 11:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

That is what happends if the first character in a line is the spacebar. Fixed. Excirial ^{(Contact me,Contribs)} 11:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

As Tagihsimon said, not all names have a lot of goodwill attached. A good example would be Blackwater/Xe. Other companies may have some degree or mergers/splits/etc and change name. E.g. BenQ which was formerly called [5] "Acer Communication and Multimedia" and part of Acer [6]. Then there's the interesting case of Accenture who were required to change their name as a result of arbitration and splitting from Andersen Worldwide due to disputes with Arthur Andersen who they used to be a division of but had split with a while back and they were probably glad of the change after the Enron scandal which blew up after they renamed. Also there's cases like AT&T or ASB Bank where the initialism of acronym may have stood for something but most people now called the company solely by the initialism/acronym and the company may embrace that because whatever it stood for is no longer meaningful. A related case is Malaysia Airlines who still go by MAS in some situations, which used to stand for Malaysian Airline System but now only Malaysian Airlines which I would say is a better sounding name Nil Einne (talk) 12:27, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It sometimes happens with products: Here in the UK Marathon became Snickers, Opal Fruits became Starburst, Oil of Ulay became Oil of Olay and so on. Astronaut (talk) 14:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems that Mars, Incorporated (read the section 'Mars Limited') renamed several of its products in 1990. Flamarande (talk) 18:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned "tactical rebranding" (article needed), which was the fate of Townsend Thoresen, Ratners, and Windscale--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The NGO English Nature changed its name to Natural England I think. What a waste of time, intellect, and money. 92.26.17.102 (talk) 19:07, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

US economy without population growth

How might US economic and monetary policy have to change if the population stopped growing? NeonMerlin 14:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

One of the biggest problems countries face when population growth declines is an increase in the average age. That means the proportion of the country claiming pensions (in the US, this is call Social Security) increases compared to the proportion working. That means the amount current workers need to contribute in order to pay those that have retired increases, which either requires an increase in the total tax burden (or increased borrowing) or a decrease in other government spending. --Tango (talk) 16:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I heard on the radio yesterday that in Germany, the old-age pension system is pay-as-you-go, as it is in the USA; and currently 3 workers support every 1 retiree; but in 20 years it looks like it's going to be 1 worker supporting every 1 retiree. There will have to be a higher tax rate, a reduction in benefits, or a new invention that creates free, unlimited energy that solves all the world's problems. Tempshill (talk) 00:12, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought that this was already happening in the US because of all the baby boomers not having as many kids as their parents did. Dismas|^(talk) 02:03, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Machines and robots also age, but politician's brains stay firmly glued to the first industrial revolution. In the "West" machines now work for xyz persons, and this might even, in the long run be noticed by politicians trying to figure out who will pay our pensions.--Radh (talk) 12:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

An aging population also means there are fewer young people who need to be supported. Those three workers are not only supporting 1 retiree. They are also directly supporting their own children, and indirectly supporting all children in the country. With fewer children, less will be spent on schools, medical services, vaccinations, and welfare payments/dependent deductions. This money will be freed up to support the retirees. There will also be more workers, as fewer children means women can spend more of their adult lives in paid employment. Countries with an aging population prospect are also encouraging or legislating for superannuation schemes (eg 401K) to make more retirees self-funded.KoolerStill (talk) 20:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Since the question is not about aging or slowing but an actual stop to population growth, the answer is going to be either a decline in economic growth, or a change in the make-up of that growth. Growth requires inputs, specifically labor, capital and technology. If the input of labor stops growing -- which is not the same as aging, declining labor force or anything other than stable-state labor input -- either growth will slow, or the other factors will have to increase so as to make up the difference. Immigration, for example, increases the labor component which (all else being equal) increases growth. DOR (HK) (talk) 10:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

British House of Commons > Speaker's logo

[7] Does anyone know where I could find either a larger version of the symbol on that page, or a vectory-PDF containing it? Thanks! ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 15:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

File:House_of_Commons_logo.PNG --Sean 17:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I was more generally referring to the Speaker's logo, which is the logo containing the Portcullis, the Mace, and the words "The Speaker"... :P ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 17:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Cell phone as a component

If a manufacturer wants to incorporate a cell-phone into its products (for example, a manufacturer of hardware wants that its servers send a SMS through the cell-phone net), should it buy a normal (for the consumer market) cell-phone and attach it to the product? Or are there any providers of only a basic cell-phone at the market? A cell-phone without screen, keyboard, loudspeakers, battery.--Mr.K. (talk) 15:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

They would almost certainly want to buy the relevant components directly from a cell-phone manufacturer and build them directly into the product. I don't see how you could attach a phone, how would you connect them? Do phones have some kind of API you could use? --Tango (talk) 16:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Some cell-phones can be connected through USB. If a product has a computer that should not be a problem, since the computer can dial a number through this connection.--Mr.K. (talk) 16:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Looks like you can readily buy a GSM module that can interface with the rest of your electronics. For a soldering-not-desired applications there are also wireless modems that plug into various standard computer ports. 62.78.198.48 (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Under my laptop's battery is a little slot which takes a SIM card which would normally go in a phone. If I wanted to, I could subscribe to a mobile internet data service and access the internet anywhere I can get a mobile phone signal. Astronaut (talk) 16:35, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Metal box by the side of the road

I see them once in awhile. They have one or two rubber tubes sticking out perpendicular to traffic flow which are securely affixed to the roadway. They stay there for a week or two then disappear. I know they are used to monitor traffic, but what are they called? Do they measure speed, or traffic volume, or both? Oftentimes they are followed by a new stop sign or traffic light. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.216.233 (talk) 20:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I think they measure traffic volume. There are usually two so they can tell which direction the cars are going in (by which order they apply weight to the cables). --Tango (talk) 20:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes - although the doubled ones can also measure speed. The rubber strips are hollow tubes and inside the box there is an air pressure sensor. When you drive over the strip, compressing it, the pressure sensor registers the fact and the box counts 1/2 of a car for the front wheels and 1/2 of a car for the back ones. Big trucks, people pulling trailers and things with more than two axles mess up the count - but they generally aren't after an exact number of vehicles, just a general idea of how busy the road is at different times of day. Some of these contraptions have two strips - and with that they can measure the time between you hitting the first and second strip and deduce the speed and direction from that. I'm told that they can even figure out whether you're accelerating or slowing down by measuring the difference in speed between when the front and back wheels hit the strip. SteveBaker (talk) 21:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

A traffic counter? Nanonic (talk) 22:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Humans born and died

Roughly, how many humans are born per minute? And, roughly, how many died per minute?--Reticuli88 (talk) 20:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

According to birth rate, approximately 134 million babies were born in 2007. That works out at about 255 per minute. According to mortality rate, that current world rate is about 8.23 per 1000 per year. The current world population is about 6.8 billion, so that works out to 56 million a year. That's 106 per minute. --Tango (talk) 21:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

We're doomed. Tempshill (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

see carrying capacity Rangermike (talk) 21:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

If one were forced to listen to the sounds of all those babies being born and the sounds of all those people dying, let us say through some kind of electronic, worldwide setup, piped into one's ears via ear plugs, would it be considered a worse form of torture than water-boarding? Bus stop (talk) 22:04, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Very probably :-) Astronaut (talk) 16:21, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Do any Wikipedia mirrors do anything useful?

Do any of the sites copying Wikipedia content offer anything I can't get from Wikipedia itself (or Google cache if WP is down)? Cause it seems like they just clutter up search results for no purpose. 86.174.136.167 (talk) 21:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Nope. One or two make lip-service at improving their copies of the articles - but without a way to automatically merge in changes we make here - that just means that they get outdated horribly quickly. It's kinda ironic...one of Wikipedia's great claims to fame is that we allow people to make copies - but in the end, any possible benefits from that got kinda wiped out by our own success. SteveBaker (talk) 23:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Once, and only once, I found one useful. I had created a diagram for an article. Someone flagged it for deletion because they didn't think my sourcing information was sufficient, and I was never notified about the proposed deletion. It got deleted, and when that occurs on Wikipedia, there's no undelete. One of the awful mirrors had it, though, so I salvaged it. It would be nice if Google would hammer them all downward in the search results. Tempshill (talk) 00:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Was that some time ago? I think admins can undelete images now. --Tango (talk) 00:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it was quite a while ago, thanks for the info. Tempshill (talk) 04:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Offline copies are useful. Online copies can serve as backups, but I can't see how they would ever be anything more. --Tango (talk) 00:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Theoretically, any of them could become a major fork if Wikipedia ever became evil. APL (talk) 01:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it the clone with the suspiciously glowing red eyes that you have to worry about? Here we have an entire army of clones! SteveBaker (talk) 02:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

In terms of being usefully reproduced elsewhere, Wikipedia's images end up having a huge amount of useful traction in the outside world (you see them all sorts of places—if you are an academic, you quickly notice that almost everyone's Powerpoint images come from Wikipedia for undergrad lectures, and even many academic books feature created-for-Wikipedia images in them). So that sort of accomplishes the original goal quite well. The idea of text redistribution has not really panned out to a whole lot. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

It does to a degree. Just today, I copied a huge chunk out of the Quaternion article to put onto our company Wiki (with due accreditation of course). But photos are certainly more useful - I probably raid WikiCommons several times a week. There is definitely benefit to having this free resource - it just doesn't lie in cloning the entire thing, changing the font and slapping adverts all over it. SteveBaker (talk) 02:30, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes: I downloaded a copy of Wikipedia which is formatted to be easier to read on my Google Phone. The company that did the conversion was not Wikimedia, so I guess that's a mirror/fork. --Sean 16:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

http://www.answers.com/ not only mirrors Wikipedia content, it has content of its own. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Many of the offline copies load more quickly than Wikipedia, which can take a while over a slow connection. John M Baker (talk) 01:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

What have I missed?

I have been busy with coursework for the last few days and hadn't seen much of the news, then I suddenly discovered something seems to be going on. Apparently the government is about to be overthrown, noone is going to vote in the election, the queen is annoyed and the speaker of the house of commons is going to be thrown out. What is going on here?

148.197.114.207 (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

There are calls for a general election, but the government isn't anywhere near being overthrown. There has been a big scandal over MPs making unreasonable expenses claims and the speaker hasn't been strong enough in working towards reform of the expenses system and has annoyed quite a lot of MPs with how he has handled the whole situation. Some MPs filed a motion of no confidence in him so he resigned to avoid such a divisive issue harming the House of Commons (and causing something of a constitutional crisis - the standard way of getting rid of speakers is chopping their heads off, and that option doesn't really exist these days!). No-one ever votes in European elections, so there's no great change there. I don't know how the Queen feels about the whole thing, she usually keeps her political opinions to herself. --Tango (talk) 22:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

We do (of course) have an article: Disclosure of expenses of British Members of Parliament. --Tango (talk) 22:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I saw that in passing when I was having breakfast this morning, but couldn't make head or tale of it as I've not been following the news much in the last week or so. I'd be interested to know what's happening, too. Is there going to be an election? "disOrder! disOrder! I say disORDER!" --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

David Cameron has called for an election, supposedly to restore public confidence in the government, but a lot of people have noted that the expenses abuse has been completely cross party. In which case, why would we have any more confidence in the Tories or Lib Dems? They were all just as bad. Hence, how could anyone vote for anyone? So, we shall see. Of course, we could vote in an entirely new crop of MPs who have never been in the House before.... Noting the headlines on discarded free newspapers the last week or so has been wonderfully filmic. 80.41.33.31 (talk) 07:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Nothing very dramatic is happening at all. Cameron has been calling for an election for months. I think maybe the OP has been reading the paper.Popcorn II (talk) 08:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand why the Speaker has been forced out of office, though. Why is he being held culpable for the perceived dishonesty or greed of individual MPs? Is he supposed to police the expenses system or what? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again, as no-one gave me a round of applause. :) What's the difference between a yarn an old lady spins and a yarn a politician spins? One's a ball of wool. :) --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:31, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Did you miss the sound of one hand clapping?DOR (HK) (talk) 10:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it would appear that the Speaker's Office is reponsible for the regulation of MPs expenses. Expenses are submitted to this office, and it seems that no real checking for applicability has been going on. His staff are civil servants, not accountants or auditors. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

From the article Tango linked: "In the aftermath of the Speaker's statement to MPs, questions were widely raised regarding Martin's future in the job,[165][166] largely due to his focusing on the actual leak of information, rather than the expenses themselves, and due to his response to the point of order raised by the Labour MP Kate Hoey, who suggested that the Speaker and Commons' decision to call in the police was "an awful waste of resources".[167] A Conservative MP, Douglas Carswell, subsequently announced that he planned to table a motion of no confidence in the Speaker, if he could garner sufficient support.[168]"

Does this help? 80.41.33.31 (talk) 11:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

When was Owen Hart's time of death?

I know that this Saturday, May 23rd, would make the 10th anniversary of Owen Hart's death. I'm just wondering, what was the exact time of death of Owen Hart? I live in the Central Time Zone, so what was Owen Hart's time of death? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirdrink13309622 (talk • contribs) 22:40, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

According to our article on Owen Hart, he was pronounced dead on arrival at Truman Medical Center. The live event, Over the Edge, was scheduled to start at 8pm EDT according to this poster, which would be 7pm in the Central Time Zone. I know of no official time of death, but I would surmise it was sometime between his fall (after 8pm) and his arrival at the hospital shortly thereafter. Coreycubed (talk) 23:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The article actually says "Hart had actually died while still being tended to in the ring." - so presumably it was quite soon after he fell. So - probably shortly after 8pm Eastern time (7pm Central). SteveBaker (talk) 12:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Although the information in a sentence that is inserted in the article in that way, with parenthesis and no citations, should be read with caution. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

May 20

Shop census in Pakistan

Some times some census are made by NGOs or government, I am working in a company workin as Distributor, So I need shop census for all the cities & towns, how many shops are there & what kind of business they have. If there is possible I will also appreciate that clasification (A class,B class etc)included. I heard about Aftab Associates that they have all kind of census for Pakistan but I did not found thier web site. Yousuf Ilyas —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yousuf Ilyas (talk • contribs) 07:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

fr:Boîte à meuh

Hello,

Someone asked if there's some article in WP:EN (and other languages) about this thing, to set interwikis. It asked that because he doesn't know the local name of this box.

Thanks a lot in advance for your answers. Olivier Hammam (talk) 10:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Bonjour,

Quelqu'un a demandé sur WP:FR s'il y a un article dans WP:EN (et pour d'autres langages) sur cet objet, pour placer des liens Interwikis. Il le demandait car il ignore le nom anglais de l'objet.

Merci d'avance pour toute réponse. Olivier Hammam (talk) 10:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

So this is one of those toys where you turn it upside down and it makes a "moo!" sound like a cow. Hence "Boite a meuh" is a "Box that moo's". Sadly, I don't think there is a name for those kinds of toys in English. This web site [8] calls them (variously) "Moo Cow In The Box", "Toy Country Cow Voice Can", "Animal's Cry Cow Toy Noisemakers" - but I can't find English language Wikipedia articles about any of those things. SteveBaker (talk) 12:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the answer. Olivier Hammam (talk) 13:23, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Digital zoom in digital cameras

Does it have a purpose or is it complete useless? Apparently I don't see any use to it, you can always process the pics afterwards, can't you?Mr.K. (talk) 14:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Digital zoom is basically cropping the image before you take it. I agree, it is pretty much useless. If you are photographing something very small/far away it can help you see it better to line up the shot, but I think that's about it. --Tango (talk) 15:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's pretty much completely useless. An optical zoom actually gives you a more detailed image of the area, a digital zoom just uses software to enlarge the area. You get "bigger pixels", so to speak, but you don't get any more actual detail in the image itself. You can get the same (or, more often than not, better) effect simply be enlarging the picture in Photoshop or some other program. However, depending on the camera and image settings, having the camera do it with digital zoom may sometimes offer better quality than doing it in Photoshop, if the image is processed by the camera before it's stored on the camera's memory card a format with a lossy compression method. However, if the camera stores the images in raw format, this advantage goes away. Optical zoom will always offer a better quality image than digital zoom. Of course, for many users none of this may be a concern, they just want to zoom in for compositional reasons and don't really care that much about the picture quality. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 15:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Digital zoom has a very important use, which is persuading the naive camera buyer that your camera has a better zoom capability than it really does. These days the lack of usefulness of digital zoom is well enough known that naive has to mean someone who hasn't read anything at all about how to buy a digital camera. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:19, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The above is pretty much right in general. Not every photographer has photoshop or the desire to post-process their images or do the cropping so for those folks the digital zoom may serve a beneficial purpose. Similarly if it means that people feel they can take a photo they previously felt they couldn't that's a benefit to them. These are pretty flimsy reasons and i'm 99% certain that the reason it is included by camera manufacturers is so they can over-inflate the zoom-capability of their camera to the naive/average Joe that just wants a camera for holidays and special ocassions as has no knowledge (or care) about features and 'quality'. ny156uk (talk) 16:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

If you're planning to crop the photo afterwards, using the digital zoom will allow you to compose/frame the shot and may improve automatic calculation of exposure, white balance, etc, by only focusing on the area you're interested in (although the camera software might be really stupid and not do this). Another factor is that images are normally compressed in cheap digital cameras (and cameraphones) and using the digital zoom may result in lower compression or some interpolation making the image slightly more detailed than the crop of a full-frame image (although on my cameraphone the digital zoom image often looks worse than the cropped unzoomed image, I'm not sure why). Plus it saves memory for stored images, may be quicker to process and store, etc. Of course it's more for low-end cameras and it's only useful if the alternative is taking a full-frame image and subsequently cropping it: it's no substitute for an optical zoom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.172.19.20 (talk) 17:21, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 193; I use digital zoom sometimes in the hope that the white balance and even the autofocus might improve because the camera knows to only consider the area I've digitally zoomed in on. Tempshill (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Gulet captain

What qualifications do I need to skipper a gulet with paying passengers in Turkey and Greece —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.172.254 (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Companies that hire out boats will doubtless be able to tell you the full legal requirements: they may differ between countries, e.g. because Turkey is not part of the European Union. BrainyBabe (talk) 22:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

You might need to have training as captain or officer, and furthermore - first aid, safety at sea, fire prevention, SAR, navigation, communication... when my father was a sailor (he's retired now) he needed to renew a dozen or so (I'm not kidding) similar certificates every few years. Concur with BrainyBabe - ask directly at the company you're aiming to work for. --Ouro (blah blah) 06:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Clothing

What are these guys wearing on their arms? Some confusion has arisen over their name during a discussion of arm-length dragonscale vambraces. 90.193.232.41 (talk) 22:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

The guy on the left seems to be wearing compression arm sleeves with holes in them. The guy on the right seems to be wearing compression elbow sleeves with his forearms and wrists wrapped with the wraps used by athletic trainers (a cheaper, disposable version of an Ace bandage).--droptone (talk) 12:19, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Vimescarrot (talk) 15:56, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

May 21

A question about Silent Hill 4: The Room...

When I was surfing on YouTube, I came across a gameplay clip of Silent Hill 4: The Room. And then I saw that there was a huge face of Eileen in one of the rooms of some corridor. It was quite strange. How did Eileen's face get like that, and what does it suppose to mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirdrink13309622 (talk • contribs) 03:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's not literally Eileen's head. If you want to inject a bit of symbolism, it could refer to how Henry has been spying on Eileen; now she's staring at him for a change. Or it could represent Henry's obsession with Eileen. Or something else. There's no clear-cut explanation for it; it's also possible that they stuck it in there just to freak people out. That has certainly been a common reaction among players. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 11:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Taking a Bicycle onto a Plane

I'm moving to Korea soon, and want to take my mountain bike with me. What is the protocol (generally) for taking a bike on a plane? I know each airline has its own rules, but generally what happens? I don't know which airline it is, because it's being booked for me, and we haven't got to that stage yet (still sorting out work visa). Does anyone know what happens here? Or would it just be cheaper to buy one when I get there? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 04:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

For me, Googling carrying a bike on a plane led to this thread and this random web page and about 108,000 other search results. They seemed informative. Tempshill (talk) 05:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I took a bike on a plane from Canada to Texas and back. I did it by putting it in a bike box that I borrowed from a friend. It looked exactly like the picture at the top left of this site: [9]. I think it was pretty expensive new (about $400 Canadian) but I think you can rent them in some places and would probably be much cheaper used (assuming you could find one). The airline charged me $80 extra to ship it, I don't know what it would cost for a trans-Pacific flight. The year earlier I tried shipping the same bike Fed Ex, which didn't work out too well. I had to spend hours wrapping it up, it still ended up taking some damage and it was more expensive than the fee the airline charged (about $120 I think). So if it's an expensive bike you are fond of, it might be worth getting a bike box and paying the airline fee, but if its an old beater and you just want an old beater once you get there it'll probably make more sense to buy a new one there. TastyCakes (talk) 05:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I should add that the bike box worked great - it was very easy to pack it and the bike seemed very protected in it. I'd recommend one for anyone that's planning on doing a lot of airplane traveling with a bike, if the price isn't prohibitive. TastyCakes (talk) 05:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Good info. I'll see what happens. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Most airlines have baggage handling information on their website. For example, going to the United Airlines website and poking around found a "Special Items" section under "Baggage" in the "Services & Information" area. There they list bicycles, saying "Any non-motorized bicycle must be prepared for travel by the customer. United cannot provide tools. Handlebars must be turned sideways, and protruding pedals and accessories must be removed. The bicycle must be contained in a durable, protective case, bag or box. Maximum weight: 50 pounds (23 kilograms) Other information: Allow an extra 30 minutes at check-in." I would check the site for the airlines you're flying. They may impose additional restrictions, especially for international travel. If all else fails, I'd recommend calling them. They last thing you want to happen is to show up for your flight and have your bicycle refused. -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 16:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Cheers. As soon as the details of my ticket come through I'll know which airline it is, then I can phone up and ask. Cheers, mate! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

considering the extra-luggage charge and the hassle, would it not be easier to ship it? When moving countries, i've always taken one suitcase and had everything bulky shipped (preferably paid for by a new employer!).YobMod 09:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I have a friend (in the UK) who cycled across the USA. After looking at shipping costs he found out that it was cheaper to buy a mid-range bike in the USA. After his cycle trip he donated the now well-used bike to a church before flying home. Obviously if you already have a top of the range bike this won't apply, but it may be worth looking at costs of new equivalent bikes as an alternative -- Q Chris (talk) 09:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

If you'll be in Korea for some time, I would strongly suggest shipping the bike. Airlines charge a huge premium for you to have it when you first arrive (assuming it isn't lost!). Shipping it a few days earlier should get it there pretty soon after you arrive. DOR (HK) (talk) 10:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Most redirects?

Is there any way to find out which wiki page has the most redirects directed at it? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 12:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

• Template:Notwiki --Drogonov (talk) 14:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you ask at the Wikipedia Help Desk, not these reference desks. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:19, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

• Here is a list from 2007 http://pastey.net/30373 not sure if there is any way other than a similar SQL query on the current database. meltBanana 18:30, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Weird Car Problem

Hello again...

Last night my car was running the heater on FULL BLAST. But that's not the weird part. The key was NOT IN THE IGNITION, NOR WAS THE IGNITION TURNED TO "ON" OR "ACC" AND THE HEATER CONTROLS WERE ALL SET TO OFF. Turning the car to "ACC" turned off the heater, but I don't want this to happen while I'm not home and kill my battery. OnStar said that nothing was wrong. Obviously something is wrong and would like someone to tell me what was wrong.

PS DON'T give me answers like "It was a Ghost."

Thanks.  Buffered Input Output 13:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Not to sound rude, but maybe it'd be best to not turn to OnStar for this, and maybe take it into a shop to get it checked out..? Yes, it might cost a bit, but at least it'd be cheaper than buying a whole new car, right? ^^ Gothrokkprincess (talk) 15:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure it wasn't the cooling fan running after the car is switched off? The fan can often run for quite a while after the car is switched off to bring the engine down to a reasonable temperature. Dmcq (talk) 17:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

That would have been my first guess too - but the OP says it went off when the key was turned to ACC - so that can't be it. The most obvious thing is that there is an electrical short somewhere - but that doesn't explain why it went off when you turned the key to ACC either. I suppose, if your radiator fan broke and if the car's computer could detect that - it might maybe be smart enough to put the heater on full as a last-ditch effort to save the engine block...but that would be surprising - and it still doesn't really explain why it would turn off again when the ignition switch was set to ACC. What kind of car is it? How old is it? SteveBaker (talk) 19:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm legally blind, so I dont' even know what the ACC part means, but my mom had a small creature, a raccoon or something, get inside her engine once. Could some animal have gotten inside and accidentallyy triggered something that tripped the heater switch, then scurried out? (And, that concludes my knowledge of cars :-) Somebody or his brother (talk) 23:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "ACC" is short for, but I believe they are referring to the position you can turn the key to short of actually starting the engine that just turns on the electrics. --Tango (talk) 23:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Since it apparently only happened once, there is the possibility that turning the key and the heater stopping were unrelated and just happened at the same time by coincidence. It doesn't seem likely at first glance, but if no-one can think of another explanation then perhaps we should take a lesson from a certain Mr. Holmes. --Tango (talk) 23:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

"ACC" is short for "Accessories". This position will enable you to power things like the windows and radio, without powering the ignition system. Bunthorne (talk) 04:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

On my Honda ACC stands for 'Assisted Cruise Control'--81.170.40.155 (talk) 05:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Could it have been condensation or a leak? You can get strange effects if water creates contacts where it shouldn't go. (OR We had a car start once because water dripped onto the ignition. Spooky!) Powering up the system might have given the current a path of less resistance and evaporated the water drop. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 10:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

V sign for survival

I watched on a survival video somewhere that people should make a V sign out of fire, to attract airplanes' attention in the desert. Why "V"? --Jackofclubs (talk) 13:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

It is the simplist way of indicating that the fire is man made.86.219.162.216 (talk) 13:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)DT

Distress signals are generally based around the number three (or sometimes six, eg. the Alpine distress signal). Three blows on a whistle, three flashes of light, triangles of reflective material, etc. A V kind of makes a triangle but is a little easier to make (being 2/3 the size), so I guess that is why it is used. --Tango (talk) 17:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

It is a giant arrow pointing at you. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:36, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Is that a guess or do you have a reason for thinking that? I don't recall being taught to stand at the tip of the V. --Tango (talk) 21:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I find that kind of dubious. I mean, what are the odds of someone coming along, looking around and deciding that since there isn't anyone standing at the tip, it must be a false alarm? -- Captain Disdain (talk) 23:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Annex 12 (Search and Rescue) of the Convention on International Civil Aviation establishes internationally-recognized ground-to-air visual signals. A "V" indicates "require assistance" while an arrow indicates "proceeding in this direction". 152.16.16.75 (talk) 23:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Is Popeye Banned in China?

Question as title. Cheers! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The cartoon or the chicken? Recury (talk) 16:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

If they are smart, it is the chicken. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

What chicken? I mean the cartoon, anyway. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 21:55, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

There's a chicken franchise called Popeye's that I believe is in California and points around there, we've never had any where I am. Somebody or his brother (talk) 23:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Ha! Right. I've never heard of it. I'm from the UK. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Popeye's chicken places are very common here in Texas - they do "Louisiana-style" fried chicken with side dishes like 'dirty rice' and 'red beans and rice' that are typical of that part of the world. Overall, they are like KFC but spicier. They appear to have no connection whatever to the cartoon character...I can't imagine this is what the OP is discussing. SteveBaker (talk) 16:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

No. He's called 大力水手 in Chinese (um, the big-strengthed sailor?). The cartoons used to be broadcast on TV, and it's still a well-known cartoon character.

Popeye was the cause of a prominent political imprisonment case in Taiwan: see Bo Yang. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:35, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Where's this from?

Me and a friend were talking about Wonderland, and making references from it, and he brought something up, that I'm unsure where it's from, or what it's supposed to mean.

"I live in your heart and die in your eyes." Gothrokkprincess (talk) 15:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You'll have to specify whether by "Wonderland" you mean the movie about filthy, sleazy porn or the 28th worst song ever or something else. Tempshill (talk) 17:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

... Alice In Wonderland. Gothrokkprincess (talk) 18:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you asking whether that line is in the book? I don't think so; it doesn't have the right feel at all and sure doesn't sound familiar to me. Matt Deres (talk) 19:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, that doesn't sound anything like the book. Tempshill (talk) 22:40, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

The closest quote I could find was "I will live in thy heart, die in thy lap, and be buried in thy eyes", from William Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing (text). -- Tcncv (talk) 00:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Reaction effect

In this game, is it possible to create an infinite loop? Nadando (talk) 19:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not think so. It appears that continuous activity would eventually need to involve cells beyond the defined limits. Assume we have an infinite loop involving a finite set of cells. One or more of those cells can be categorized as an upper-left cell, defined as one with no participating cells above or to its left. Eventually, one of those cells will rotate so that the connections are oriented up and left to the non-participating cells. That cell will then be "out of the game" not participating in further activity, thus reducing the set of participating cells. As this situation repeats, the number of participating cells will eventually reach zero. Only action by a cell outside the original set would get things moving again, which implies that the set cannot be finite. That doesn't mean it could run for a very long time though. The 16×16 collection shown has 4^16×16 = 2⁵¹² ≈ 10¹⁵⁴ states.

I'm not sure if this constitutes a proof. Perhaps those on the mathematics desk might like to take a crack at it. -- Tcncv (talk) 23:41, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

It sounds rigorous enough to me. --Tango (talk) 16:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

black "g $" stamp on 100 bill

i got a $100 bill (US0 on on the top right corner (reverse side) there is a black stamp "G $" is all it is. what is it? a bank stamp? is it from the printer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.64.15 (talk) 19:59, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

People stamp money with all kinds of stuff. There is not likely any discernible reason for that particular stamp. And as a bit of trivia, it is not a $100 bill, it is a $100 Federal Reserve note. A bill is what you get in exchange for using electricity. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

wikt:bill, etymology 3, item 5. wikt:pedant. --LarryMac | Talk 21:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

(ec) In US English, "bill" also means a banknote. --Tango (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

When Australian currency went decimal in 1966, the public education campaign included a cartoon character called "Dollar Bill". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:34, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

You get all kinds of thing stamped and written on banknotes. People write numbers of them to help them keep count when counting money, but I can't think what "G" would mean (I initially thought "grand", but that would only be 10 notes, hardly worth a stamp). --Tango (talk) 21:05, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I bet it is G as in Gangster. You know, OG and all that. You have some bona fide gangster money, maybe it was used to buy drugs or the services of a prostitute. Either way best not put it in your mouth. 161.222.160.8 (talk) 22:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

'Gay Dollars'? I once read that some gay-rights/pride-type group were stamping money with such - some sort of 'our money is as good as anyone's' statement and possibly to annoy people who don't like gays. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Possibly, though it's a long shot, it has to do with Wheresgeorge.com. Although, the people stamping bills for that aren't generally that enigmatic. Dismas|^(talk) 03:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The top of a wad of bills usually gets marked with a mark for the register it came from or for the person who counted the money from the tray. When the money is machine counted later and there's a difference, the manager can identify where it came from. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 10:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Why would you put $100 notes into a register? You can't really give it as change.65.121.141.34 (talk) 13:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You've got to put them somewhere. The register seems the obvious place. It's more secure than a money bag under the counter, which is the only other option I can think of. --Tango (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

If it is a customer spending them, yes they obviously would go into the register. However, the comment before was that the stack would be marked on top, and then placed into the register, which makes no sense for larger denominations, unless of course the customer is spending $2,500 in cash? 65.121.141.34 (talk) 14:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No, the comment said the stack that came from the register would be stamped and then go to be counted. --Tango (talk) 14:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Could it be a "Where's George?" marker? Not that $100s are usually so tracked, but it has been known to happen. Go there and check the serial number to see if it's listed. — Michael J 16:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see the earlier comment. I'm a goof! — Michael J 16:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The Good Ship Lifestyle

Does anyone know the place names that the girl speaks at the beginning (and at some point in the middle) of the song 'The Good Ship Lifestyle' by Chumbawamba? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

This youtube vid's lyrics say it is "Pharohs, Bailey, Pharoh, Heppertes, Rally, Ruffle, Challen, Soh, Travelga, Fiddister, Irisy, Fiscay, Umber, Forfend, Promity forth time", but I'd correct it. They're all islands. "Faroes, Bailey, Fair Isle, Hebrides, Raleigh (Mallee?), Rockall, Channel, Sole??, Trafalgar, Finnister, Irish Sea, Biscay, Humber?, Portland??, ?? . Maybe someone can get the rest of them? Steewi (talk) 02:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Correction: they're not all islands, but places to take a cruise ship to. Steewi (talk)

02:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, the ones in the middle of the song (from about 2.50) are different: I hear Viking, Thames, Dover, and at least three more. Steewi (talk) 02:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Sounds more like weather forecast areas to me.--81.170.40.155 (talk) 05:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

They're areas from the shipping forecast. Dalliance (talk) 08:25, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

So, does this mean neither KageTora nor Steewi have ever listened to the shipping forecast? That's... remarkable. 89.168.85.22 (talk) 10:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing very remarkable about people outside the UK not having listened to a UK originated & centred weather forecast. Given that it is only broadcast on a single station in the UK, there's nothing remarkable about people within the UK being unfamiliar with it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, except that KageTora at least is British. I misread Steewi's page :P Given the nature of the station which broadcasts the shipping forecast, and given the general reaction when they reduced the number of broadcasts over FM, I would consider it something to remark upon that someone KageTora's age had never heard it. I was hoping for some amusing story as to why (parents considered the BBC to be Satan incarnate, allergic to radios, etc), but there we go. 89.168.85.22 (talk) 11:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I lived in Asia (China/Japan) for most of my adult life. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:24, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

... and now I have the Sailing By earworm. Curse this thread ! Gandalf61 (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

For the record the correct names from the lyrics are:Faeroes, Bailey, Fair Isle, Hebrides, Malin, Rockall, Shannon, Sole, Trafalgar, Finisterre, Irish Sea, Biscay, Humber, Portland, Cromarty, Tyne DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You missed out Forth before Tyne. What about the second bit? She says something like 'German [something or other]'. What's all that about? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 18:56, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The song's outdated, then, since Finisterre was renamed FitzRoy in 2002. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 00:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

German Bight --ColinFine (talk) 18:33, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Excellent work! And the bit in the middle is 'Dogger, Fisher, German Bight, Viking, Thames, Dover, Wight'. Cheers! Got them all now! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

May 22

Trees

You often see many companies claiming to plant 10,000 trees etc, despite all this why is that forest cover is still going down?How do you verify such claims? sumal (talk) 03:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Unless you go and physically count the trees they claim to have planted, or you have some evidence to suggest they could not possibly have planted as many trees as they claim, I don't think you can verify it. You have to take it on trust, I guess. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Well trees are still being cut down in their billions for our use so 100 companies planting 10,000 trees does not a sustainable forest make. Usually you will find that in these circumstances the company will make donations to a firm that agree to do the work. For example often you'll see a "1p from every X will got to Y", my understanding is that the firms do not track sales (since it would be difficult to know as they will mostly sell to retailers rather than consumers directly) but rather that based on their estimates they make an appropriate donation to cover the usage. Will try find some sources to verify but certainly i've heard that policy being mentioned before. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:04, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Have you ever seen trees of this type being planted? Each little tree is about four inches high. Boy scout troops sometimes plant them as a project. to plant one, you make a slit in the ground with a small mattock, insert the root, and then close the slit by stamping your foot next to the slit. With practice, one boy scout can plant more than ten trees per minute. Ten thousand trees is a trivial effort and almost a meaningless number. It's better to count then number of acres. -Arch dude (talk) 09:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Americans use 2 billion trees per year for wood, paper, board, etc.[10] I can't find figures for the world, but it's maybe 10 times that. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 10:15, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Planting A tree every six seconds per person? Impossible in any quantity. After the first row just walking back to your source of seedlings will take more than six seconds.

In any case, All you've asserted here is that planting trees is easy if you already have a truck full of seedlings. APL (talk) 23:05, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Even if the number of trees planted were equal to the number of trees chopped down, you would still have the problem that the trees you're chopping down are mature and the ones you're planting are seedlings. Forest ecosystems are destroyed when all the big trees are chopped down, and planting some tiny ones (whether in the same place or elsewhere) doesn't really fix that. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, some tree farms are clear-cut, and others are thinned; the latter doesn't destroy the ecosystem. Unfortunately our tree farm article is basically a stub and the difference is not discussed. I assume most tree farms are clear-cut, replanted, and the company puts up signs saying "This area will be harvested again in 2015", as Weyerhauser does for their tree farms that are visible from highways. Tempshill (talk) 15:16, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

10,000 trees sounds like a lot - but it's not. There are about 1000 trees per acre in forested land - 640,000 trees per square mile. A block of terrain a couple of miles on a side contains two or three million trees. So you can plant several million trees and only cover a tiny dot on a map. Over the last 50 years, we've cut down about 6 million square miles of forest...that's 3,800,000,000,000 trees. When you hear that a company is planning to replant a trillion trees - then THAT would be making a difference. The recent (and belated) release of the movie "Earth" by Disneynature was accompanied by a promise to plant a tree for everyone who comes to see the movie...so far, they may have covered two of those six million square miles! SteveBaker (talk) 16:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Utilitarianism, Moral Relativism, and Moral Absolutism

According to utilitarianism, are standards of morality and ethics absolute or relative, objective or subjective? What do utilitarians think about moral relativism and moral subjectivism? What do moral relativists and moral subjectivists think about utilitarianism?

Bowei Huang (talk) 03:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. SteveBaker (talk) 16:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

What if I change the first question slightly? Is utilitarianism a form of moral relativism or a form of moral absolutism?

What if I forget the first question and just ask what they think about each other? Is that a homework question too? Can you answer that?

Bowei Huang (talk) 01:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about the subject, but I have linked your question to some articles that may be useful to your research.

utilitarianism , moral relativism , moral absolutism --Lgriot (talk) 07:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Bowei Huang isn't doing homework, but does like to start discussions. Steewi (talk) 02:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Holes in survival knives

Why survival knives usually have holes in their blades?

I think it is just to make them lighter. --Tango (talk) 12:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

For fishing.

Is it so you can hang them on a pegboard? Tempshill (talk) 22:13, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

This one has one so that it can be opened while wearing gloves. Recury (talk) 21:18, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The purpose of the holes depend on their size, location and possible markings near the hole. Some of the reasons make good sense and some are downright silly. Some of the common reasons for the holes include thumb-opening (as in the one linked by Recury), creating an inclinometer, sighting hole (using the side of the knife as a signalling mirror), wire stripper, bolting on attachments (silliness), or even to include a small magnifying glass for firestarting (true silliness in a knife). 152.16.16.75 (talk) 00:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The only holes I've seen are to be combined with a lug on the scabbard to form a wire-cutter. If a cheap knife has this hole but not the matching lug and hardened edge on the scabbard, then it's probably just mindlessly copied from a more expensive knife that did. I believe that M16 bayonets do or did have this device, which is probably the source for a lot of copies. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 20:22, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

simple maps

Maps often have loads of detailed information and sometimes that isn't always needed. Is there a special term for streamlined maps that contain only the most basic information needed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.169 (talk) 16:06, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Needed for what? --Tango (talk) 16:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. If you want a topographic map, it's likely not to show where churches are. If you want a map for driving, then it is likely to show churches since they're major landmarks and thus aid navigation. So, what are you looking to do with these maps? Dismas|^(talk) 18:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Nothing in particular, I was just wondering if there was a generic name for very basic maps, rather than saying "very basic map" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.169 (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Yet, the question remains... A map of what? Dismas|^(talk) 19:45, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

There are different names for maps intended for different purposes. --Tango (talk) 19:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the OP is looking for a term that can be used to describe *any* map that has been pared to the bare essentials of its purpose, regardless of what that purpose is. (Not really describing the map itself, but rather the process of minimization, if you will.) I, for one, am not aware of any such term. The best example of the concept, though, is likely the London Underground Map, where the actual geography of London is simplified to emphasise the connectivity of the stations. - The original poster may have better luck asking at the Language Desk -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 21:04, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Since the London Underground "map" is deliberately drawn schematically and not to scale, it may be argued that it is best not called a map at all, but a diagram. The compromise term "diagrammatic map" is sometimes used for this sort of thing.

As a general answer to the original question, I would simply suggest "simplified map". --Anonymous, 21:33 UTC, May 22, 2009.

In my Army career, we used "strip maps"— simplified maps that showed only the route. We used these in conjunction with regular maps. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 22:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Or "special purpose map"? --Tango (talk) 22:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Or maybe those "stick figure" (my term) maps that you often see in advertisements with three of four streets connected together at right angles that lack any proportionality or real world references, showing only that you should follow street A, turn left on street B, and then right on street C. -- Tcncv (talk) 23:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

(unindenting)

"Strip map" doesn't necessarily imply simplification: it just means a map that's long and narrow. It could be a piece cut from a conventional map. --Anonymous, 07:30 UTC, May 24, 2009.

"Obama Would Move Some Terror Detainees to US"

What is so controversial about the possibility of moving terrorist suspects from Guantanamo to US prisons? The guys are prisoners. It’s not like they’re being released to their own devises on American soul. Why is there a controversy over this? --S.dedalus (talk) 16:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the controversy is that some of them may be released on US soil. They can only be transferred to a US prison if they are convicted (or at least charged) with some offence, which may not happen with all of them due to lack of evidence (or just lack of guilt, but that case isn't likely to worry anyone). Ideally such people would be returned to their country of origin or the country they last legally entered, but some of those countries aren't willing to accept them. As such, they would be a stateless person (that article actually mentions Guantanamo) and the US is obliged to keep them. --Tango (talk) 16:48, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The irony is that, even though the naval base is on Cuban territory leased to the U.S. government, the detention facility inside is, in every sense of the term, "a U.S. prison". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Except it doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the US prison services. It is a military detention centre, that is quite different legally (or so said the Bush administration). --Tango (talk) 22:12, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Careful saying that — it's disputed that it's "in every sense of the term". Three Supreme Court Justices disagreed with you in Rasul v. Bush. (However, the other six agreed with you enough to establish that U.S. courts do have jurisdiction.) Tempshill (talk) 22:22, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

"...some of them may be released on US soil". Surely if that was to happen and they were not US citizens they would be deported back to whereever they were first captured. Astronaut (talk) 23:21, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

From interviews of concerned US citizens heard on BBC radio news, there seems to be a belief that if some (alleged) terrorist is held in a given US mainland prison, all the shopping malls, schools etc anywhere near that prison will become prime targets for the terrorist organisation he (allegedly) belongs to. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The US can't deport someone to a country where they would be in significant danger of persecution. They also can't deport someone to a country where they will not be accepted (they would just be put on a plane straight back to the US). --Tango (talk) 10:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I think 87.81.230.195 has hit upon the real issue - voter ignorance. No one in the government wants terrorists to be jailed in their home district because the voters will think their elected representative has unleashed global terrorism upon their shopping malls, and he or she will lose the next election. I don't think this question has a common-sense answer. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:08, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe that there are two issues of concern here - both unfounded.

1. That the presence of a terrorist in your local jail might cause other terrorists to come to your city and to cause mayhem in order to try to get them released. That's possible - but as federal prisoners, the 'protest' or terrorist activities could happen anywhere in the US and achieve the same effect - why wouldn't these hypothetical situations already be happening over the prisoners in Guantanamo? It doesn't really matter where the person is imprisoned - a terrorist threat or protest in order to get them released could still happen anywhere. Efforts to free prisoners of this sort has happened innumerable times in the past - and it's often taken the form of airplane hijackings, etc - but I can't think of a case where the action was taken near to the actual place the person was imprisoned.
2. That the terrorist might be released into the community - either immediately, or after some number of years - and that this person would then be the cause of major trouble. Well, the likelyhood is that such a person would be deported immediately (there are plenty of legal grounds for doing that) - and that the country to which they were sent would refuse entry. When that happens, because they have no right to stay in the US, the INS keeps the person in detention until a suitable destination country can be found. People have died waiting for that to happen. This would be equivalent to life imprisonment - see (1) above. But even if (by some quirk of law) one of these people were to be walking free on the streets of downtown USA - don't you imagine that there would be a black SUV full of guys in dark suits and talking into their sleeves following this guy for the rest of his life? Any effort whatever to contact like-minded people - or to acquire explosives or whatever would immediately lead to re-arrest and possibly useful leads on other terrorist cells.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:21, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure people are indefinitely detained if no country will accept them? There are international conventions regarding stateless persons. There are cases like that of Mehran Karimi Nasseri where people have stayed in immigration limbo for prolonged periods, but in that case he was given permission to enter Belgium (albeit after 7 years), but refused it. --Tango (talk) 20:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I wonder which bit of the law would treat people that are taken by the US forces to a prison under American control as illegal aliens. lets see, would that be entering without authorization or inspection, staying beyond the authorized period after legal entry, or by violating the terms of legal entry? Dmcq (talk) 20:42, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

They wouldn't be illegal aliens. Either they would be allowed into the country or they wouldn't, there is no way they could get into the country without permission since they are in US military custody. --Tango (talk) 20:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

So as far as I can see it then they are not subject to anything by the INS and unless they are convicted of a crime they have a perfect right to stroll the streets of America unhindered. Dmcq (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

No - the US deports them. For a foreign national who has no visa or green-card, the law certainly allows them to do that on the flimsiest grounds. At that point, these people have no right to be in the US. If their country of citizenship refuses to take them (as is currently the case with every one of these people) - or if they are 'stateless' - then they have to appeal for asylum. Asylum is certainly not an automatic right. While they wait for their asylum request to be heard - the stay in detention...and stay...and stay...and stay. They may also apply for asylum in a foreign country - and if that's accepted, then they are put on a plane and gone. Since the US is certainly not obliged to offer them asylum after they've been formally deported - they'll stay in detention until some other country offers to take them...probably in some INS detention facility. There is no mechanism for them to be walking the streets in the US - they have no US citizenship, visa or greencard. So they'll be detained indefinitely...albeit on US soil...albeit in more comfortable circumstances than you perhaps feel they deserve. SteveBaker (talk) 00:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

So foreign people can be deported even though they are not illegal aliens and have not violated any of the terms of their stay? Is there some law saying something like an FBI man stands up in court and says I don't like the person and that's good enough? Or does it not even have to go so far? Dmcq (talk) 10:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Steve said "who has no visa". If you don't have a valid visa then you must have either entered illegally or violated the terms of your stay (by not leaving soon enough). --Tango (talk) 14:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can see not having a valid visa is not grounds for deporting someone. The grounds are that they entered without authorization or inspection, they stayed beyond the authorized period after legal entry, or they violated the terms of legal entry. If a person is taken to the US by the army I don't quite see which of these grounds is violated. Dmcq (talk) 15:15, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

May I recommend "Americans in waiting: the lost story". There is an appropriate excerpt here. Deportation is essentially a political act - and it's not deemed to be a punishment. Hence it can be applied to non-citizens/non-resident aliens for pretty much any reason. If you are here on a non-permanent basis then the government may simply revoke your permission to stay. Even if you have a perfectly valid visa - you don't have a right to be in the USA. So the government can just say "get outta here" and if they don't go, it's deportation time. There are a bunch of guidelines as to when they will and won't deport - but some of them are as vague as "moral terpitude" or "subversive activities" - and they are only guidelines. The law specifically says that even if you entered the US legally - you may still be deported. But don't take my word for it - read the book excerpt. SteveBaker (talk) 16:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems vague grounds don't count, it has to be pretty certain, but I wouldn't bet on anything given good lawyers on either side! Dmcq (talk) 10:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

buying desert boots

I want to buy desert boots, but don't know where. I found Bates desert boots, but only in the US. Where can I find similar ones? Or perhaps something equivalent? I walk for long, long journeys, so they have to be good military style desert boots.--88.6.117.202 (talk) 18:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Your IP address seems to be from Barcelona, Spain. Is that were you wish the buy the boots? --Tango (talk) 18:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

It can be from an internet shop that delivers to Spain. --88.6.117.202 (talk) 19:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Go to Google - type "Buy desert boots international shipping"...or even "Buy Bates desert boots international shipping" - you get hundreds of hits from online stores that'll ship internationally. SteveBaker (talk) 00:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

OR My hubby bought two pairs of boots online (US). One pair from Australia - arrived next week. One pair from Sears (also US)- took 3 weeks. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 11:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Lost ID information

Hello, I recently lost photocopies of my Canadian passport and drivers license. Should I be worried about identity theft? Is there anything I should do to minimize potential risks? 71.102.30.155 (talk) 19:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Where do you think you lost them? That could matter a great deal. Dismas|^(talk) 19:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I forgot them on a plane in the back pocket of the seat in front of me. I talked to the airline and they looked but didn't find them after. 71.102.30.155 (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

You've reported the lost items to the authorities, right? By which I mean the police, the passport office, and the driver's license office in your province. If not, do it right now! They may have information for you in relation to your questions, as well. --Anonymous, 21:36 UTC, May 22, 2009.

Sorry, like Tango below, I missed the words "photocopies of" in the original posting. --Anon, 17:57 UTC, May 23.

If you have lost your passport it is vital that you report it to the police immeadiately. --Tango (talk) 21:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

photocopies of -- Nricardo (talk) 23:31, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

As an ID document, photocopies are pretty much worthless. However, the photocopies would contain other information that might be of use. For example, perhaps your address is on the drivers license, and the thief knows you are not at home. However, the most likely scenario is that the airline's cleaners put it in their garbage sack when they were cleaning the plane in preparation for its next flight. Astronaut (talk) 08:22, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I misread that as "copies off" and assumed they were official copies. Yeah, losing photocopies isn't a big deal, that's why you are advised to carry photocopies rather than the real thing where possible. It's not a good idea to leave that information lying around, but it isn't the end of the world. --Tango (talk) 10:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

"Where possible" would not, of course, include the primary context in which passports are used, viz. travel to foreign countries, where only the original would be acceptable. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, when you go through passport control you're going to need your passport. When people want to see your passport just to get the information off it, though, you can use a photocopy. A photocopy is also useful to have in case you lose your passport and need the information. (I helped someone fill out a form for a lost passport once and I think there was a box for the passport number. Fortunately they knew theirs, I have no idea what mine is.)--Tango (talk) 01:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

For your own private use, a simple photocopy would suffice, but only a certified true copy would be acceptable for most banks, authorities etc, and maybe not even that in some cases. They could quite reasonably ask the question "What prevents you from producing the original, if you are indeed the person you claim to be?". -- JackofOz (talk) 01:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

National Diet Library

I read the expression "National Diet Library" in a question on the Language ref desk. It was a reference to the Japanese Parliament, nothing to do with obesity and dieting. But my immediate mental image was of a vast repository in some national capital of magazines, books, videos, DVDs and self-help literature of every conceivable description, about how to lose weight (usually "quickly and permanently"), most of which advice contradicts every other bit of advice. It caused me to wonder: Is there any other subject about which there is so much information, but with such a high degree of inconsistency?

A lot of these wizz-bang new diets come with so-called scientific backing, yet for every one of such "scientific" diets, there's another with equally good claimed scientific credentials that says something quite different. So, who to believe? It's common for magazines and TV current affairs programs to have features that make the point that dieting simply does not work, but worse than that, typically people who go on such diets end up being more obese than before they started out. They've gone backwards. But next issue, the same magazine's printing yet another fantastic new diet that "everyone's on". It's all just so unbelievable. Most countries have laws that protect consumers from misleading and untruthful advertising, yet when it comes to this particular issue of obesity and what to do about it, an issue that most governments claim to be deeply concerned about - which they should be because it's getting worse, not better - they seem to allow all and sundry to publish any diet claims they like, in a completely unregulated manner. Maybe if science spoke with one voice on the solution to obesity, governments could use that to regulate the self-help market. But as it is, the strong impression I have is that there is no such thing as a "one size fits all" solution, so a diet that may not work for most people might actually work for a few people. And vice-versa. If it's true that diets simply cannot come with a guarantee of effectiveness for any particular person, why do governments not advise their citizens to at least treat all diet claims with caution; or to go further, by checking with the health authorities as to whether such a diet is supported or not. Does any country have a system where it's illegal to publish diets without some official certificate/imprimatur that says it's been approved by the government health authorities? Or that it's illegal to suggest that a diet, any diet, by itself is the solution; any claimed solution that does not incorporate an exercise regime is intrinsically at best only a part of the solution? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

There is a slight flaw in your premise that "science could speak with one voice". Science is not a single entity that only serves one purpose. The vast majority of scientists is either employed by companies or the government. In those positions their research gets a certain direction. Even researchers who got tenure at a university have certain agendas like getting published and a book deal. Add to all that the fact that our understanding of the human body is far from complete. Many concepts that used to be generally accepted have recently been found to be utterly wrong. Just look at the "food pyramid" that used to have a large component of grains. Conspiracy theorists think it was an attempt by the government to help the grain producing agriculture. For people who consume whole grain and engage in heavy physical activity it is actually not that bad, though. For the office workers with the unused gym membership, it isn't. Many things that look good if you consider individual components or theoretical studies, don't pan out in real life. I second your opinion that "one size fits all" solutions don't work. In every system there is a certain statistical distribution. The trick is to find something that covers a wide area of that. (Example. When the US imported grain to feed starving people in the Philippines it was later found that due to the different diet people were accustomed to there it actually caused an increase in liver disease.) If we had perfect information you could imagine that your doctor could give you a couple of tests and then prescribe "the perfect diet" for you. Since humans and their environment are subject to lots of chaotic influences, perfect information is impossible. If you looked at study results from 10 years ago you'd probably have a hard time finding some that haven't been revised or rebuked. Most governments try to keep their populations from engaging in the most obvious follies. They also tend to keep companies from harming or killing too many people in the interest of making profit. But if they regulated everything you'd end up with a place that would be most unpleasant. (Mandatory morning exercise. Food police. No driving cars. etc.) Since the human body has an Autonomic nervous system that reacts to things like stress their best efforts might go to waste and their discontent population might gain weight anyway. Although there are probably vastly more people at risk from obesity, these ads also affect people at the other end of the spectrum. Particularly among girls and young women anorexia is a possibility. Just as with telemarketing, some regulation might be useful, but it would be difficult to realize.71.236.24.129 (talk) 11:43, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

There's the example of the Diet of Worms. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, 71.236. I wasn't talking about governments regulating the daily lives of their citizens, but about regulating what information can be published about dieting and weight loss. For example, I cannot publish a claim that consuming a kilo of pure heroin every morning for breakfast will make you a smarter and healthier person. Similarly, I cannot advertise myself as a doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, dentist, pharmacist or other professions if I don't actually have training and a recognised qualification. I cannot publish a claim that the Australian Government is a private company owned by Mrs Gertrude Smith of Paris, Germany. All these sorts of things are regulated by governments, for very good reasons, and if I make one of these claims, I'm in big trouble with the law. Some types of professions are not regulated (at least not in Australia) - hypnotherapists, homeopaths, massage therapists, aromatherapists, and various others. But they're frequented by relatively few people, whereas most everyone has a legitimate interest in eating healthier food, keeping their weight to an optimum level, being generally healthier, and living longer lives. I'd have thought this type of information would be an obvious candidate for regulation. But I hear what you say about the chaotic factors, and it would be hard to find a consensus among the medical fraternity that any one diet is better than any other. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

May 23

MMA fighters in a street fight

Is it safe to assume that mixed martial artists such as Ken Shamrock or Tito Ortiz would find success in an unarmed street or bar fight? In other words, are the combative skills required in mixed martial arts transferable onto a real-life unarmed "street" confrontation scenario? Acceptable (talk) 01:16, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I am not certain that I understand the question. Is it true that your question could be rephrased: Is it safe to assume that people who make their living by beating the crap out of people could beat the crap out of people? Or are you asking whether UFC is fake? Tempshill (talk) 03:39, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The question is quite clear, although it does kind of answer itself. Yes MMA fighters are good at fighting, I've seen it happen.Popcorn II (talk) 07:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Problem is a genuine streetfighter is damn good at improvising a weapon at once,pool cue,broken bottle etc ,that they don't stay unarmed for long.OR but I saw a martial artist left bleeding on the floor in about 1/2 minits by a biker used to fighting for real not show 88.96.226.6 (talk) 14:29, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, martial arts such as Tae Kwon Do and Karate are not practical in a self-defense scenario. Even during sparring competitions, the rules are somewhat rigid and not at all realistic as to what one would do on the streets. Therefore, someone who is excellent at TKD may not be good at defending themself against a real attacker. However, would UFC fighters fare better? Acceptable (talk) 15:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The difference comes about because the martial artist is accustomed to fighting within the confines of the rules - where a streetfighter pretty much has no rules. If the discipline that the martial artist follows has strict rules - then they may do very badly - but if they have few rules, then it's going to be more likely that their experience and training would allow them to beat the streetfighter. It's hard to know the degree to which this effect matters. SteveBaker (talk) 16:04, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

There is one move that is by far the most effective move in a real fight but doesn't appear (legally, anyway) in any martial art - the sucker punch. The best way to win a fight is not to get in one in the first place, disabling your opponent before they can do anything is a very good way of doing that. (Of course, if you want to be able to claim self-defence in court, you need to wait until you can reasonably claim that you thought an attack was imminent. Some jurisdictions may have additional requirements as well.) --Tango (talk) 01:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The mother of all road trips

Reading our articles on the Bering Strait bridge and Strait of Gibraltar crossing has got me wondering. Should crossings like these be built, how long would it take to drive through all five linked continents (i.e. no Australasia) – say, from Cape Town to Cape Horn? I appreciate how hypothetical this is – and that there are a kabillion factors to consider – but Google Earth didn't want to help me! This document seems to suggest that such a trip would take a little over a year, but it also seems a little speculative. Cycle~ (talk) 01:55, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

And what factors should be considered that may hinder such a journey (politics etc – not just having a vehicle that's up to it!). Cycle~ (talk) 02:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you could drive all around the earth at the equator, you'd have to drive 24,800 miles - with good roads you could probably do 500 miles a day (50mph - 10 hours a day) - so roughly two months. I doubt your transcontinental journey is significantly more than that...so definitely not a year. SteveBaker (talk) 02:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

That assumes good roads all the way, though. It only needs one bad 1000 mile stretch to significantly slow the journey - if you could only manage 120 miles per day on that it would increase your time by over a week. You've also got to consider that while 500 miles per day sounds feasible (and is on short trips), on long trips it would be serious wear and tear on both the vehicle and drivers. The longest road trip I've ever done was 4000 miles and two weeks - and I doubt that either the vehicle or those involved would have survived anything quicker. I'd say that 200-250 miles per day is a more practical figure to work from, which would make for a four month journey - more if you want to do any real sightseeing. Grutness...wha? 02:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, in the real world, as of now, even on land there are obstacles like the Darién Gap.John Z (talk) 06:28, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Having done some long road trips myself, I can tell you that 500 miles a day, day after day, would be an absolutely punishing schedule even on reasonably good roads. You would quickly fall a long way behind schedule. 150 miles a day is a more realistic pace, enabling you to see something of the country/state you were passing through, stopping for food, take the smaller roads rather than the major highways.

War torn areas are probably avoidable but you might encounter bandits who will be only too happy to rob you of everything 9including your life). The biggest problem though would be the lack of road infrastructure in some parts of the world, though one would hope that if a Bearing Strait bridge were to be built, they would get around to connecting either end of the bridge to the rest of the road network. However, at the moment, there are parts of Africa, the aforementioned Darién Gap, and the Road of bones in Siberia that are petty much impassable in a "normal" vehicle. The weather would be a major factor too, with heavy rain in equatorial Africa and Central America washing out the unpaved roads, windblown desert sand in the Sahara and many other regions you would probably pass through, and extreme cold in Siberia and Alaska. There are some political moves to build a Trans-African Highway network. There was a ref desk discussion some time ago about driving to the very bottom of South America. Astronaut (talk) 08:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Which six continents? Wikipedia has "seven regions commonly regarded as continents – they are (from largest in size to smallest): Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe, and Australia". If you are excluding Australia / Australasia then are you including Antarctica? Your route does not need a Gibraltar Bridge, You could go via the middle east. So I presume you are talking (Gib route): South Africa -> Nigeria -> Morrocco -> Spain -> Turkey -> China -> Russia -> Alaska -> Mexico -> Argentina for 5 continents. -- SGBailey (talk) 09:29, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Aaghh, thanks for pointing out my incompetence (fixed). As for the Gibraltar route, it was just as an alternative – avoiding going through Sinai, up into Europe and then doubling back. Cycle~ (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Ewan McGregor and some other dude did Long Way Round and Long Way Down - both of which were road-trips of this sort of idea. They seemed to run into a huge number of problems from what I saw. Worth a read of the articles though - it was a very popular series on the BBC (though I personally never watched it hence having only a passing knowledge of it). ny156uk (talk) 09:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I didn't catch the first one, but I saw Long Way Down and more recently Charley Boorman's By Any Means. I think it would be more interesting to do a big trip by one means of transport though! Cycle~ (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

rote learning vs. actual thinkinh

hi, i just read the article on "rote learning", and although i understood the meaning and theoretical explanation, could someone please give me some examples of rote learning and some of actual thinking?

i'm from india and here, in high school, the teachers teach us everything from the book, advice us to buy other reference books and practice sums and questions from them. is this rote learning?

but as i entered 11th grade in another school, there was a significant change. even though the teachers still advice us ref. books, there's a much more emphasis on acutal thinking. but then, this may be because different schools have different teaching styles. and then, is this new school following rote or actual???

(and in fact, i find it very hard to cope up with the new school's curriculum. this is primarily due to the fact that this new school follows a curriculum different from the one in which i have been studying for over twelve years. i have been under CBSE where the course is light, while the new school's curriculum is ICSE which is very hard. the teachers were amazed that i didn't know logarithms (which had been taught in grade 9 in ICSE background.)

thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.134.149 (talk) 04:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Most schools in India (I'm an Indian too, so I've got hands-on experience) actually encourage rote learning, but there are ocassional exceptions. And it is well-known that the ICSE/ISC board emphasizes on in-depth understandig while the CBSE board has a more diluted course. The syllabi may be the same, but CBSE teaches only the apparent stuff, while ICSE/ISC gives more stress to deeper understanding, and has a vaster field of learning. Also, in class XII, especially if you're a science student, you are expected to use your brains rather than follow the rote-learning technique (which won't get you too far when you pursue higher studies). Using reference books and practicing problems is okay as long as your concepts are clear, and you don't resort to mugging up scores of obscure formulae. Also, changing boards after class X comes as a big shock for anyone, but I think going through the question papers of the last ten years might help you familiarise yourself with the ISC's pattern.La Alquimista 05:35, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Can I just say, as someone who took a "conceptual" math class that emphasized all "thinking" and no rote learning, that there is something quite advantageous about some types of rote learning. 20 years later, I don't remember any math that I don't use on a daily basis that I hadn't had drilled into me — my multiplication tables are there and ready to go, having been drilled into me by the time I was 11, but I have to re-derive the rules for multiplying exponents every time I want to do it, and have forgotten nearly everything "conceptual" I learned. So while rote learning generally gets a bad rap, in retrospect I could have used a bit more of it personally. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 03:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

When President Bush was at a school when 9/11 happened the children were doing rote learning chanting together and the teacher said "more to come" to split up sections. I remember reading somewhere that there was evidence showing this was a very successful method of teaching, I can't see a reference to it on the school site or about that day, anybody know a reference to this method of teaching? Dmcq (talk) 11:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

It depends what they were learning. Some things are quite arbitrary and can't be learned by any method other than rote memorisation (are US children still expected to learn state capitals? That has to be done by rote.) --Tango (talk) 14:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

In North America, rote learning became unpopular for a number of years, but is making a comeback in arithmetic. As a child, I rote-learned the multiplication tables up to 12 and it has stuck with me. That's the kind of thing that's starting up again because if basic arithmetic becomes memorized, it still retains its usefulness while checking calculations, etc. In the past, many other things were rote-learned, such as dates in history class or various figures in geography class. These largely remain out of fashion due to a realization that exact dates don't increase knowledge that much; relational dates are more useful.
Rote learning requires you to memorize something through repetition, usually spoken, and usually in a group setting, though there are variations. When you copy something from a book, you are engaging in a mild form of rote learning, because you see, read, consider, then write the same information.
As a personal aside, I'm glad I rote-learned various items in school - they come to me whenever I need them, almost without requiring thought. I've also memorized various poems on my own through rote learning. While that's not as handy as the multiplication tables, it does help pass the time during extended periods of boredom. Matt Deres (talk) 14:24, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I've had a look at a 9/11 video and looked around and I think they were teaching using Direct Instruction, probably something from the Science Research Associates range of material, you can see an example of how structured it is from this example [11]. The children looked like they were at an earlier stage of the same scheme learning phonics. Dmcq (talk) 14:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Name of book

I read a part of a book last year, the name of which I simply can't recall now. It was (most probably) a classic, or at least, something written at least 50 years ago.The part that I do remember told of a boy who married a girl and on the way home from the church (they rode in a horse-carriage/cab) he made the girl cry by telling her that the ordering of dinner was solely her responsibility, since he'd taken the trouble of marrying her upon himself. In fact, it was his habit to compare everything he had done with everything else the poor girl did not want or know how to do. And, the couple was deeply religious, as far as I can recall.Can anyone tell me the name of this book? Thanks in advance. 117.194.224.237 (talk) 05:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Reminds me a bit of Tess of the d'Urbervilles.Popcorn II (talk) 07:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

It's The Way of All Flesh by Samuel Butler. You're describing the scene in the coach just after Theobald and Christina marry. Karenjc 22:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

logarithms

can anyone tell me where on the internet i can learn logarithms right from the beginning?? 122.50.134.149 (talk) 08:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

You can go to http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wtutor?tutorial=t-log.htm. From your IP address, it seems you're the person who posted the rote-learning question above. If so, I also recommend the ISC maths book M.L Aggarwal, which really simplifies the Logarithm learning process by breaking it up into smaller parts. Also, you might look up Logarithm in Wikipedia to get a clearer idea as to what it is, and how important it is. I gave my ISC's this year, and I assure you, doing log sums was what I enjoyed the most. It's one of the easiest chapters if approached and learnt properly. Best of luck! La Alquimista 08:19, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

It's a simple concept - I can teach it to you right here and now - in less time than it takes to find you a reference!

Consider numbers like 1, 10, 100, 1000. We can write these in scientific notation as 1x10⁰, 1x10¹, 1x10² and 1x10³. A number like 342 can be written as 3.42x10²...but it could also be written as 1x10^2.534. OK - so any number (except zero) can be written in this form. When you multiply two numbers in scientific notation: 100x1000 = 10²x10³ you add the exponents: 100x1000=10²x10³=10²⁺³=100000. Now if you convert two numbers into this exponential form: 342x456=10^2.534x10^2.659 ...then you can add the exponents to get 10^2.534+2.659=10^5.193=155952.

Now - when we talk about logarithms, the 'log' of a number is the whatever in 10^whatever...so if you can convert your two numbers into the appropriate fractional power of 10 - the logarithm - and convert your answer back from that form into ordinary numbers - you can do multplication by doing addition...and in the era before pocket calculators - that was a HUGE deal! You can also do division using subtraction.

Of course that conversion into powers-of-10 format is a bitch to do - but they published big, thick books ("log tables") containing the logs of numbers from 0 to 1 (to perhaps 4 to 7 digits of precision) and other big books that did 'antilogarithms' that convert from the log back to the normal number. So to multiply two numbers - you looked up the log of the digits in the numbers (so for 354, you looked up 0.3540 and got 0.534 from the tables in the book) - added the appropriate number of powers of 10 (so for 354, you added 2 to get 2.534) - then you added the two logs - and looked up the fractional part of the answer in the antilog tables - and added the right number of zeroes to get the right answer.

Better still - you could use a slide rule to automate the log/antilog and addition processes - for approximate calculations. Back in the 1960's - when I was in high school - you used a slide rule for approximate multiplications and divisions - and log tables when you needed more precision. Slide rules are particularly elegant - you can multiply and divide numbers considerably faster than you can do it on a pocket calculator. With care you could do square roots and all sorts of other tricks.

Now go read logarithm for the full answer! SteveBaker (talk) 00:24, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Roadrash

what are the cheatcodes of road rash game? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.239.88 (talk) 08:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Usually your best bet with questions like this is to try google - a search for "roadrash cheats" brings me to this page (http://www.cheatscodesguides.com/pc-cheats/road-rash/) and the results. For example to activate no police "during the game, press "xyzzy" to get access cheats. Then any time you want type in "bribe". Great game by the way. ny156uk (talk) 09:27, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Most people stick to a single reliable website, rather than Googling every time. GameFAQs is my personal choice. It has a searchbox. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I always actually Google and I include "gamefaqs" in the Google search! Tempshill (talk) 14:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Why would you want to cheat on your game? Surely the challenge is to defeat the game without the need to resort to cheating. Astronaut (talk) 23:24, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The purpose of cheat codes is deep and subtle. When a new game comes out - everyone reviews it - it's gets tons of publicity - great free advertising! After that, if you want advertising, you have to pay for it. But if you cunningly tucked away lots of cheat codes and easter eggs then you can 'leak' these a few at a time to magazines and online games reviewers and get more free coverage. Also, if you make these codes available to players who complete the game - you give them reasons to keep playing it - and ways for them to brag to their friends by giving out cheat codes ahead of the leaks to the media. This keeps the underground 'buzz' about your game going.

This wasn't always the case - originally, these cheat codes were put there to allow game programmers to debug their games without having to play all the way through (which gets exceedingly tedious when you're in your second or third year of development!)...occasionally, the programmers would forget to take out the cheat mechanisms before the game shipped. But programmers also find it useful to be able to get to the later levels quickly and easily - for example if they are demoing the game - or in order that busy game reviewers can review the later levels of the game without having to spend dozens of hours playing through to them. Other cheat codes were put in by programmers just for fun - more like easter eggs than anything else. A way to 'sign' the game - to prove to other people that you really did work on the project.

But these days (since the GTA "Hot Coffee" business lost Rockstar games something like $15,000,000) games are screened VERY carefully and programmers and artists can get into a LOT of trouble for introducing cheats and easter eggs without permission...and generally, these things are planned as a regular part of the design process. (Well, that's what we like our management to think!)

SteveBaker (talk) 23:57, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

There would be no fun trying to sneak easter eggs into games if the management weren't trying to stop it! --Tango (talk) 01:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - but the concern is that console games have to go through inspection by the console manufacturers (Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo) - if one of the team sneaks something inappropriate and the game fails that inspection process then the consequences can be exceedingly serious. Aside from the fact that you have to pay to get the game re-inspected, the process takes a month or so and that amount of delay in the release of a game can cause your advertising to kick in too soon - and perhaps for you to miss the critical Xmas buying season. That risk is so grave that you'd have to be crazy to try to sneak something like that through without getting the OK from management. SteveBaker (talk) 14:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Crazy, or working on your last project before you retire! ;) --14:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Currency sign amount

Do we have a page that describes standards for amounts in business. A thousand Euro are TEUR. How about million? MEUR 1.0 or EUR 1.0M or mEUR 1.0?? Does s.o. know where I can find this for various currencies? 71.236.24.129 (talk) 13:25, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

In the US, in a business PowerPoint presentation, or some other form in which a shorthand is required, you would write "50K" for 50 thousand, presumably because of the "kilo-" prefix. Usually 50 million would be written as "50MM". I have been told that "MM" is used instead of "M" because "M" in roman numerals means only one thousand. I have often seen people use "M" for million, though, and have not found it confusing. Tempshill (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia's Manual of Style has the rules used in writing out currency amounts in this encyclopedia: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Currencies. SteveBaker (talk) 15:53, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

"k" is often used for "thousands". More commonly, "m" or "MM" for millions, "b", "bn", "B" etc for (American) billions. I find EUR 1.0m or EUR 1.0MM fairly common, but have not seen "MEUR". Nor "TEUR", actually. More often EUR1.0k or simply EUR1,000. TEUR seems inconsistent to me. EUR is the unit, there's no such unit as TEUR, and if there is, i would've thought it represented Tera-Euros rather than kiloEuros. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

aircraft pilot seat position

Why is it common practice to position pilots on the left side of airplane cockpits, and on the right side of helicopter cockpits? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccaero (talk • contribs) 15:44, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

From this Yahoo discussion, the pilot holds the collective with the left hand and the cyclic in the right hand (see Helicopter flight controls). Keeping a hand on the cyclic is much more important to maintaining control than keeping a hand on the collective. By being seated on the right side, the pilot can more easily reach controls on the center console with the left hand. A left seated pilot would have to switch hands on the cyclic in order to reach center console controls with the right hand. However, another site (here) seems to indicate that the position is more arbitrary. -- Tcncv (talk) 16:47, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I always understood the helicopter placing to date from older, more basic craft that had only a single collective, placed between the seats like the handbrake on a (non-US) car. It's more natural to fly with the cyclic on one's right hand, so although both seats could reach the central collective it would be more comfortable for the main pilot to be in the right seat and grip it with his left hand.

As for why pilots sit on the left in fixed-wing aircraft, my answer is a little more speculative. It's based around the "rules of the road", and the fact that when two aircraft are on a constant bearing, the one who can see the other's right side should stand on, and the other (who can see the first's left side) should give way. Now, my father (who is a pilot) says that the rule is this way round because it makes observation easier for the pilot in the left-hand seat - he assumes the seats came first and the rule came after. However, I am a sailor, and I know that the same rule exists for ships; I also believe it has existed for a long time. This rule, along with many others about navigation lights and so on, seem to have been lifted wholesale from the sea into the air when some means to regulate air traffic started to become necessary. So if the seat position makes the traffic rules easier, perhaps that's where it came from? 93.97.184.230 (talk) 20:10, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

• I had heard that it was because most airports fly left traffic, and so the captain has better visibility sitting on the left side. But this is sort of a chicken and egg problem, because the current wikipedia article says that most airports fly left traffic because the left seat is commonly used. Shadowjams (talk) 06:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

May 24

Background music

This will be difficult but I was watching some clips on YouTube and was watching this clip. I was wondering what the background theme music? I believe it has been used before, probably in an ad. --Blue387 (talk) 01:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

You should ask this on the entertainment ref.desk...they are very good at identifying music. SteveBaker (talk) 14:43, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I can barely hear it *sigh* —Tamfang (talk) 23:53, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

University Transcripts (UK)

In the UK (not the US - I know about that already), what is the general policy regarding university transcripts ordered in triplicate and sent through the post? I have received mine (for my work permit for Korea), and specifically asked them to stamp and seal the envelope. However, they seem to have done this on the envelope they sent me the transcripts in, and I have no way of knowing whether they have done it on the transcripts inside, or even whether they have put them in individual envelopes (which is what I need). I don't wish to open the main envelope and risk invalidating the entire package if the ones inside are not stamped and sealed. I will call them on Tuesday to find out (Monday is a bank holiday), but it would be nice to know a bit earlier, as this gives me an extra couple of days to work with (application for work permit needs to be done as soon as possible). --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 08:11, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The transcripts themselves should be individually stamped, do you really need them to be in a sealed envelope? I've never heard of that before and don't recall an option to request that when I last ordered some transcripts. --Tango (talk) 14:56, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I've been told that for immigration purposes they need to be in sealed envelopes. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 15:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

online library

does anyone know an online library site?? i tried wikisource but there were only classics, like sherlock holmes and monte cristo.... i need a site where i could read dan brown's and rowling's and tolkien's, (actually every major author's. the book i want to read right now is angels and demons. i googled for it but every site seems to demand payment), so if anyone knows this sort of site, please tell me.

thanx!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.134.149 (talk) 10:44, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

You could try Internet Archive and Google Books, but they won't have anything by Dan Brown or J.K. Rowling, since those books are very recent and still under copyright. Google Books might have excerpts but every once in awhile a chunk of pages will be missing. Why don't you try an actual library? That is also free. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

You won't be able to legally get new digital books without payment. The "classics" are on there because they are in the public domain. Everything else is under copyright and the authors need some money in order to keep at it for a living. Go to a regular library or pay for the book. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

All true - but you could (for example) get an Amazon Kindle - which allows you to buy books from their online bookstore and download them immediately. Because those books are paid for - this isn't a breach of copyright and modern books are widely available. But in terms of free sites - no - everything has to either be out of copyright or donated by their authors. However, free, modern books by popular authors is an impossibility - the authors have to make a living somehow. SteveBaker (talk) 14:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

An exception is Baen, which make many recent books available for free download. Their business model is that most people who download the free books alos buy them in hardback. In particular, almost all of David Weber's novels are available, along with a bunch of other stuff. -Arch dude (talk) 16:46, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Another exception is Cory Doctorow who releases his books via a Creative Commons license. Dismas|^(talk) 19:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

True, but the poster specifically asked about Brown, Tolkien, and Rowling. Which you aren't going to find (legally) online for free. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 19:55, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

They also said "actually every major author's" and Doctorow is a well known if not "major" (whatever that means) author within his genre. Dismas|^(talk) 20:01, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Some public libraries (mine for example) lend e-books as a downloadable pdf. They work it so that (unless you hack it) you can't copy it and must "return" it at the end of the loan period. It's quite effective. I'm sure there are ways to hack it so you can copy it, but it's not easy. I have found some sites (which I can't recall) that offer a particular book free each month. Steewi (talk) 02:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Cigarette machines?

Do they still have cigarette machines in England or have they been banned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.1.161.76 (talk) 13:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

We still have them in pubs, even though you have to smoke outside. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 15:10, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Ferrari F430 spider

Please could someone tell me how the doors open on a ferrari F430 because I am using the model in a book I am writing and cannot find a picture of one with the doors open. I think they go upwards. Thanking anyone in anticipation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geekiss (talk • contribs) 16:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

The photo at right is of the F430 Scuderia - it's doors evidently open conventionally. SteveBaker (talk) 16:27, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Picture of Teufelsberg?

Does anyone know where/if there are pictures of Teufelsberg before it was planted with trees? It was made from the rubble from Berlin, so I'm looking for an impressive picture of an enormous mound of rubble. Any tips on where I could look? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I had a look on Google Images for you, and the second picture was of rubble in Teufelsburg, but not really the 'impressive picture of an enormous mound of rubble' that you asked for. It was more like a few bits of concrete on the floor of what looked like a forest. Anyway, there were dozens of pages of images, so if you want to check through them (if you haven't done so already), go ahead. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Microeconomics homework question

"From the society's viewpoint a benefit of advertising is the revenue it provides to some firms to enable them to supply public goods. Discuss this statement, starting by outlining the characteristics of a public good."

I'm quite confused because I don't understand why firms need to supply public goods in the first place? Please, any help? 117.0.61.25 (talk) 16:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

OK then let's pick this apart. "The society's viewpoint" - which society is this? "Benefit of advertising" - how does advertising benefit anybody? The answer is "the revenue it provides to some firms" in other words, it gives money to some companies. How does it do this? "Supply public goods" - obviously this is what these companies do. What is the "public good" these companies provide? Well it appears to be the services of an advertising agency. So we can deduce that one of the characteristics of a "public good" is that it is a paid for service: one side offers the service (in this case, advertising) to another side who pays for the service. Does this help? --TammyMoet (talk) 17:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

It's difficult to determine exactly without more context. Certainly, the broadcasting of TV shows in the United States might be considered a benefit to the U.S. public (or it might not, depending on one's view of Family Guy), and it's the revenue supplied by advertisers that allows the broadcasters to supply those public goods. Deor (talk) 19:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Deor has it. Advetising pays for broadcast TV in many countries. It pays for Google searches. It pays for bus shelters &c. So those are examples of your public goods. We have an article on Public goods which may assist wih the rest of your homework. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:55, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I fixed your link, Tagish. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:58, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

May 25

SS Jackets Open

Might be obvious, but all the pictures of Secret Service agents that I've seen, depict the agent with their suit jackets open. This is to allow for easy access to their firearms right? Acceptable (talk) 00:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

That and/or it's easier to move with it open. Dismas|^(talk) 00:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Or they are just copying Hollywood, that copies them, who copy the movies, who....86.209.155.227 (talk) 15:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC)DT

Postmodern Humanism

What is postmodern humanism? Is it the same thing as posthumanism?

Bowei Huang (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Posthumanism means a lot of things, as our page indicates. Definition #3 is probably the closest to anything like "postmodern humanism." --98.217.14.211 (talk) 01:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Voice actor

How can Tara Strong lend her voice to both Raven of Teen Titans and Bubbles of The Power Puff Girls?? The voices are so different! 117.0.58.102 (talk) 08:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

She can do that because she's good at her job. Skilled voice actors don't just read the lines into the microphone, they create distinct voices and vocal mannerisms for their characters. A well-known example of this is Billy West, who voices Fry, Professor Farnsworth, Dr. Zoidberg and Zapp Brannigan, as well as various incidental characters on Futurama. And of course, there's "The Man of a Thousand Voices", who single-handedly (single-mouthedly?) voiced Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Barney Rubble, Marvin the Martian, Porky Pig, Sylvester the Cat, Tweety Bird, Yosemite Sam and dozens of other well-known characters. Another example is Frank Welker, whose ability to fashion animal-like sounds has been in consistent demand. He's got about 1,200 voices under his belt, apparently. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 10:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

10 million and 1 billion articles

Are there any statistical projections about when we (en wiki) will have 10 millionth and 1 billionth (if ever) article? Thanks - DSachan (talk) 09:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Ten-million pool. Dismas|^(talk) 10:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and this: Wikipedia:Modelling Wikipedia's growth Dismas|^(talk) 10:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

It may never reach 10 million even. Deletionists go around deleting interesting pages like List of fictional characters by IQ as being unencyclopaediac. You'd need an awful lot of non-notable and original research pages as well to get anywhere near the billion mark! Perhaps Deletionpedia will eventuallly reach such dizzying heights. Dmcq (talk) 11:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Seems Deletionpedia has not been updated since December 2008, so I doubt it will get anywhere near there soon. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:54, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Well at least wikibin which is a bit more discriminating has List of fictional characters by IQ. ;-) (Don't bother starting an article on wikibin unless you can defend it properly - see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deletionpedia ) Dmcq (talk) 14:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we're close to having articles on everything that meets our notability criteria today - since about 2 million articles, it's becoming quite difficult to come up with things that we don't have articles for. I very much doubt that there are 10 million concepts in the world today that are sufficiently notable to warrant articles. However: new, notable, things appear all the time (just today - the North Koreans detonate a nuclear weapon - and voila! We have a new and notable article). So the growth rate will probably flatten out considerably - but I don't see how it can stop altogether. Until that flattening out is actually observed, I don't think we can estimate when we'll hit 10 million articles. It's possible that some unexpected catastropy or technological advance might obsolete or destroy Wikipedia before we get there - but again, there is no way to predict that. Certainly, I don't think you can take the time it took to get to 2.5 million and multiply by four...it's going to take a lot longer than that. If we can't predict the 10 millionth article's creation date with any precision - don't even think about the billionth article. The only thing that MIGHT make a significant difference would be if there were to be some kind of policy change to relax the notability criterion. I think that would actually be quite welcome in the Wikipedia community - and if there were a significant 'levelling off' of new article creation, there might be the political will to make that happen. SteveBaker (talk) 14:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I think that there is the possibility of 4 or 5 million at least. For example concerning notable persons from non-English speaking countries the coverage is still nowhere near the relevant language Wikipedias. A translation of all the notable persons, objects, events etc from the various languaged Wikipedias would easily amount to 1 or 2 million (if the number of articles added to these while this process is going on is added). Then think of all future events, objects and persons that will gain notability in the future, this will also secure a steady increase of articles, although of course not at the same rate as before. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that article about the North Koreans exploding a nuclear device satisfies WP:N#TEMP. Shouldn't it just be part of a more general article about their nuclear potential? This sort of argument can be applied quite rightly to many old new stories so I'm not sure there is inevitable growth. Dmcq (talk) 15:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

(after ec)

Wikipedia is excellent in its coverage of subjects that have contemporary and English language Googleable sources, but otherwise it can be quite spotty. For example here are a few thousand subjects that are indisputably notable by current wikipedia standards, but are yet redlinks:

• {{SSBPST recipients in Physical Science}}
• {{SSBPST recipients in Medical Science}}
• {{SSBPST recipients in Mathematical Science}}
• {{SSBPST recipients in Engineering Science}}
• {{SSBPST recipients in Earth, Atmosphere, Ocean & Planetary Sciences}}
• {{SSBPST recipients in Chemical Science}}
• {{SSBPST recipients in Biological Science}}
• Padma Bhushan awardees
• Padma Shri
• Sahitya Akademi Award to Marathi Writers
• Sahitya Akademi Award to Gujarati Writers

I can go on, but I think my point should be clear. Going from 2.5 million to 10 million articles does not necessarily involve diluting the notability standards, but perhaps will need more involvement of editors from non-English speaking countries and overcoming of some other systemic biases that ail current wikipedia topic selection. As for the date ... my best guess is eventually :) Abecedare (talk) 15:08, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Questions about paypal

I'm trying to set up a paypal account so that I can send a friend a small amount of money to his paypal account. I have some questions

1. How long do the transfers take?
2. Is it possible to use a prepaid credit card to send money with through paypal?
3. Will my personal details be viewable to the other person when I send the money?

Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questions needs answers111 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

What did Paypal say when you emailed them? 86.3.22.178 (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)