Wikipedia talk:Miscellany for deletion/Archive 4
Template:Chronological talk archive
There were over 20 pages on Category:Miscellaneous pages for deletion that were not listed here. I've worked through the whole list, appears about 50% usual newbie listing errors, but the rest appear to be people listing via scripted processes that are broken. Any idea which scripts may be messed up now? — xaosflux Talk 23:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
- By eyeball it looks like a twinkle issue. Synergy 23:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
- It is. When you use twinkle to create an MfD, it doesn't transclude that MfD, to this page. So by checking the contribs of the initiator of the MfD you have recently placed on the main page, he never transcluded it here. Whoever works on twinkle would have to be notified about it. It would be the only way to fix it. Synergy 00:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- I do not think it is a WP:TWINKLE issue fully. Part of the issue is something is going on with the date and time perfs overall. I have noticed over the last week or so my comments are all signed using server time - not local time. And if server time is the next day that the tags will show up for that day, and using via WP:TWINKLE will not auto create the date header. I just did an MfD and it was not listed here - so I added it in manually but than I noticed the date on my sig was tomorrows date. I checked my perfs to be sure amd they read correct. My guess is my sig for this post will show up incorrect as November 10 at 01:03 (or there about) and I am doing this by hand, no WP:TWINKLEinvolved. Soundvisions1 (talk) 01:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- Well it did show up CORRECTLY as Nov 10th at 01:03, as that is the time you made it. All enwiki times are in UTC, including the dates/times for mfd "days". Do you think the problem is that the script is reading the user's computer's local time and making the error there? — xaosflux Talk 03:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, local time was not "01:03, 10 November 2008" it was 5 hours earlier and November 9. The date/time may be "correct" for server time, but it is not the correct user time (unless, of course, the user lives in the server). That is what I am saying. A few weeks ago I did not see this problem as it is popping up now. And come to think of it we did have a time change recently and that is around the time this started happening. Maybe the server was reset and it reset the time? To answer the question you asked I think the script is not reading the local user time and it is posting based on the server time. To be clear if an editor is making a manual post they would create an entry under the correct date - say "November 11". But their sig might say "November 12" is that is the server time. Likewise using an automated tool such as Twinkle would read the server side scripts and try to post the entry under "November 12" which probably has not been created yet, as seems to be happening in the situation brought up by xaosflux and suggested by Synergy|ergy to be a Twinkle issue. Because the issue in not only an Twinkle issue someone needs to look at the core Wikipedia scripts as it is my understanding that Twinkle reads/takes information off the existing scripts. I will check with SchuminWeb and direct him over to this thread. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- Signature timestamps using ~~~~ or ~~~~~ are always in UTC time. Since signatures are saved to pages in plain text, they aren't covered by the same preferences that adjust time and datestamps according to your local UTC offset, such as history pages, timestamps in signatures have to be standardized. For instance, say your local time zone is UTC+1 and my local time zone is UTC-1; your local time is 2 hours ahead of mine. If you post a message at noon (12:00PM) local time and I replied to the message 1 minute later, my local time would be 10:01AM. It wouldn't make sense to append the local timestamp to the message because then it would look as if I had posted my reply to your message exactly one hour and 59 minutes before you posted the message. The problem would be compounded by the fact that, for the most part, nobody has any idea what another user's local time is. Rather, all signature timestamps are standardized to UTC so that we're all talking on the same clock. Back to the issue at hand...xaosflux, can you provide me with some examples of Twinkle created MFDs that did not get automatically listed? Thanks! Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 17:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- I'll have to go back and dig some up...in response to Soundvisions1 though, is there a known issue that it will fail to post the mfd if the current date header is not there yet? If so that should be corrected to create the date header if !exist. — xaosflux Talk 00:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Signature timestamps using ~~~~ or ~~~~~ are always in UTC time. Since signatures are saved to pages in plain text, they aren't covered by the same preferences that adjust time and datestamps according to your local UTC offset, such as history pages, timestamps in signatures have to be standardized. For instance, say your local time zone is UTC+1 and my local time zone is UTC-1; your local time is 2 hours ahead of mine. If you post a message at noon (12:00PM) local time and I replied to the message 1 minute later, my local time would be 10:01AM. It wouldn't make sense to append the local timestamp to the message because then it would look as if I had posted my reply to your message exactly one hour and 59 minutes before you posted the message. The problem would be compounded by the fact that, for the most part, nobody has any idea what another user's local time is. Rather, all signature timestamps are standardized to UTC so that we're all talking on the same clock. Back to the issue at hand...xaosflux, can you provide me with some examples of Twinkle created MFDs that did not get automatically listed? Thanks! Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 17:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, local time was not "01:03, 10 November 2008" it was 5 hours earlier and November 9. The date/time may be "correct" for server time, but it is not the correct user time (unless, of course, the user lives in the server). That is what I am saying. A few weeks ago I did not see this problem as it is popping up now. And come to think of it we did have a time change recently and that is around the time this started happening. Maybe the server was reset and it reset the time? To answer the question you asked I think the script is not reading the local user time and it is posting based on the server time. To be clear if an editor is making a manual post they would create an entry under the correct date - say "November 11". But their sig might say "November 12" is that is the server time. Likewise using an automated tool such as Twinkle would read the server side scripts and try to post the entry under "November 12" which probably has not been created yet, as seems to be happening in the situation brought up by xaosflux and suggested by Synergy|ergy to be a Twinkle issue. Because the issue in not only an Twinkle issue someone needs to look at the core Wikipedia scripts as it is my understanding that Twinkle reads/takes information off the existing scripts. I will check with SchuminWeb and direct him over to this thread. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
- Well it did show up CORRECTLY as Nov 10th at 01:03, as that is the time you made it. All enwiki times are in UTC, including the dates/times for mfd "days". Do you think the problem is that the script is reading the user's computer's local time and making the error there? — xaosflux Talk 03:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- I do not think it is a WP:TWINKLE issue fully. Part of the issue is something is going on with the date and time perfs overall. I have noticed over the last week or so my comments are all signed using server time - not local time. And if server time is the next day that the tags will show up for that day, and using via WP:TWINKLE will not auto create the date header. I just did an MfD and it was not listed here - so I added it in manually but than I noticed the date on my sig was tomorrows date. I checked my perfs to be sure amd they read correct. My guess is my sig for this post will show up incorrect as November 10 at 01:03 (or there about) and I am doing this by hand, no WP:TWINKLEinvolved. Soundvisions1 (talk) 01:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- It is. When you use twinkle to create an MfD, it doesn't transclude that MfD, to this page. So by checking the contribs of the initiator of the MfD you have recently placed on the main page, he never transcluded it here. Whoever works on twinkle would have to be notified about it. It would be the only way to fix it. Synergy 00:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
← *Let me start over. A few weeks ago I never noticed any issues. Now I notice when I post it comes up +5 hours. I understand the concept of the UTC vs local time, I am just saying I did not notice it before and I think this is the overall issue. When using Twinkle, if the server time has flipped to the next day and the local time has not yet flipped over it will not post anything on the MfD pages because the new day has not been created yet. It seems to be that the main variation is that when doing an MfD it returns an error that it "can not find the page requested" whereas when tagging an AfD I have noticed that, at times, the message will be posted (Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.) will be a redlink. I did not equate this being a time/date "local Vs. server" issue until now. Server time is +5 from me I have figured out, so if I posted something at "19:01" local time it may fail if the next days page has not yet been created on the server. (EDIT - as it it now the "next day" on server time I tool a look and there is not a "November 12, 2008" header so any Twinkle created MfD's will be created right now but would not be posted under "November 12, 2008" as it does not yet exist. Soundvisions1 (talk) 01:01, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, so sounds like a Twinkle error...twinkle should not fail but notice that the current day header is missing and create it...this has less to do with tiem zones, having an EMPTY header should not be a prerequisite to making posting here; just like it is not for people doing it manually. — xaosflux Talk 02:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Having just created a new MfD with Twinkle, I noticed that it returned an error message saying that the date header was not found, so it did not create the entry on the main project page. I created it manually. Sounds like it could be fixed with a simple tweak to twinkle (if no date header, create date header...), but who to talk to about that? NJGW (talk) 02:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm, do you think it is the same as Wikipedia_talk:Twinkle#TW-B-196_.28open.29? — xaosflux Talk 03:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds the same... any reason the headings were changed in that edit? Maybe we should just change them back (or else someone that knows the js code and has access can go fix it there). NJGW (talk) 03:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- The headings were ultimately changed back sometime between then and now, but I don't know specifically when. I poked around under the hood of twinklexfd.js and think that I may have found the problem. It seems that when Twinkle tries to add an MFD to the page when the current day's heading has already been created that everything works fine. However, it appears that the structure of WP:MFD has changed slightly since that part of twinklexfd.js was written. I identified a section of code that would always fail if Twinkle did not find the heading for the current day and (hopefully) fixed it. Please let me know on my talk page if this problem still occurs as I am going to unwatch this talk page at this point. Ioeth (talk contribs friendly) 19:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds the same... any reason the headings were changed in that edit? Maybe we should just change them back (or else someone that knows the js code and has access can go fix it there). NJGW (talk) 03:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm, do you think it is the same as Wikipedia_talk:Twinkle#TW-B-196_.28open.29? — xaosflux Talk 03:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Having just created a new MfD with Twinkle, I noticed that it returned an error message saying that the date header was not found, so it did not create the entry on the main project page. I created it manually. Sounds like it could be fixed with a simple tweak to twinkle (if no date header, create date header...), but who to talk to about that? NJGW (talk) 02:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Opinon needed
Not sure if this should go to MfD or not. User:Wellus page that is somewhat set up like a personal web host with a personal photo album: User:Wellus/Photo which goes to: User:Wellus/Photo/2007. (EDIT: I just relzied the whole main page has links to subpage that are somewhat "bloggish" - User:Wellus/Philosophy, User:Wellus/Miscellaneous, User:Wellus/America) Thanks Soundvisions1 (talk) 05:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Have you talked to him? It does appear that he's violating WP:WEBHOST - he states that he has a Myspace, perhaps he would be willing to move the extraneous information to one of his off-wiki pages. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 12:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- Left a message, although it seems they have not logged on in over a year. There is also an entire set of subpages that seems to be school work. Soundvisions1 (talk) 08:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
Sandbox question
I stumbled across User:Hamsterdunce/sandbox and I see it has been there since January 27, 2007 and has been tagged {{in use}} since February 11, 2008. The last "work" was done February 12, 2008 and on September 12, 2008 the {{in use}} was "disable tag from userspace". The user who seemed to be doing the most work on it was blocked in April 2008 and unblocked the next day. The last post/edits by this user was to their user page on April 21 saying, first, "Now do you see why I quit?" and than expanding on that to read "Now do you see why I quit? These people are INSANE." So my question is does there/is there a need/reason keep this sandbox? (For further reference you can look at David Lovelace, the creator of RAB and whose article was created by Eric Barbour, as well as the Revision history of David Lovelace) I guess I could also ask if the user page is acceptable as well? Soundvisions1 (talk) 16:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- I reviewed the /sandbox and simply deleted it. It has become an archival copy of a deleted page (many times deleted and salted) and the user is inactive.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 16:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Daily Logs?
I've been thinking for a while that we need daily logs. I know it would require changes to the way pages are listed and both the mfd and oldmfd tags worked but it would also:
1. make it much easier to go back over pages to see if they've been closed properly (I've noticed a lot of issues lately with pages not being closed completely.
2. obviate the need for moving closed discussions to the closed discussions section of the MFD page and then archiving them manually when a day is done; you'd simply leave them in their respective days in their closed status and then untransclude the day when it was complete.
3. days could be listed at MfD without full transclusion, only open days would be listed and when you accessed a day all discussions would be fully transcluded.
This is a combination of the discussion pages from TFD and what we have now, more like AFD is set up. Thoughts?--Doug.(talk • contribs) 22:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think that is a good suggestion. No, there isn't a requirement for it, as things seem to be working as they are, but I think it would help, even if in the least. – Alex43223 T | C | E 11:53, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Problem with deletion script?
I've noticed an issue with the default reason when I delete pages listed on MFD recently. Normally it would list the reason as:
- Other
- [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Some miscellaneous page]]
But several recently have read:
- other
- [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/{{#if:|{{{1]]
Any ideas what is causing this?--Doug.(talk • contribs) 01:36, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
feedback requested at Wikipedia talk:Userfication
Please voice your opinion on a proposed change to the "Userfication of deleted content" guideline. Thank you. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
FYI, it's not a guideline. --Doug.(talk • contribs) 19:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- FYI - it does not say what it is actually. But it is linked from Wikipedia:User page, which is a guideline. I didn't think much about it really because it is worded as a guideline nor is it marked as an essay or a "how to" guide. Either way - more opinions still need as there is a section that was added, and is part of the proposal as well, about MfD. Thanks. Soundvisions1 (talk) 20:22, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
mfd tags
Are mfd tags supposed to stay in Wikipedia pages forever? Or should they get removed after awhile? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerardw (talk • contribs) 19:31, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- The mfd tag should be removed once the discussion is closed. This usually happens after about five days. If an mfd tag was not removed after the mfd was closed, please notify the closer of the mfd discussion of the oversight. In some cases, the mfd tag is placed, but the actual discussion page is never created. If that is the case, the mfd tag can be removed immediately.--Aervanath talks like a mover, but not a shaker 08:03, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Formatting mfd to have daily log pages
At the moment, maintaining this page is a real pain in the butt. I'm wondering if there are any objections to formatting MfD like WP:DRV, where each day is on a log page, and then the log pages are transcluded. Currently, each discussion is transcluded directly, requiring manual archiving, which is time-consuming. I've filed a bot request to get this automated, but if it doesn't happen, I'd like to take some other steps towards making this maintenance-friendly.--Aervanath talks like a mover, but not a shaker 08:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- DRV may be maintenance friendly, but it is also highly user-unfriendly. DuncanHill (talk) 13:20, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- In what way? I haven't found it so.--Aervanath talks like a mover, but not a shaker 17:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think I'll object. I believe this has come up 2 or three times before, and has been rejected. There is already an MfDbot that I was going to handle since ST47 has given it up. I lost interest soon after that. Its really not difficult at all to do the manual archiving, and I'll resume updating if its that much of a problem. Synergy 17:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree that DRV has its own issues, however, I think having a daily log page at MfD (rather than a separate page for every discussion) would be better. See how WP:CFD works, for example.
An excellent example of a comment that's likely to be overlooked in this format, but would be less likely to under CfD's format is NYB's at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/The Thadman.
In that case, perhaps having the the noms combined into a group nom might be helpful, but there are times (as is possibly true in this case) where nominating them separately due to concerns which may be unique to one or more pages may be more useful to the discussion achieving consensus.
And btw, I believe CfD has archiving bots as well. (Besides the daily log itself being a de facto archive.) I would presume that the bot owners would be happy to help set up whatever would be necessary. - jc37 23:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, I don't really like the way CFD is formatted. My suggestion for formatting like DRV was mostly based on the DRV practice of collapsing closed discussions, making it easier to find the open discussions. That's still a problem at CFD, and especially a problem at AfD. I like the current practice of each discussion having it's own page. I think this makes it much easier to find old discussions about a particular page, and I actually think CFD (and RFD) would be improved by adopting this aspect of it. I was mostly just bitching about the annoyance of maintaining the page. Maybe something more along the lines of an "if transcluded, then collapse" line of code in Template:mfd top, so that transclusions of closed discussions would be collapsed.--Aervanath (talk) 02:21, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
- Whether discussions are "collapsed", or not, has no effect on how the process itself is presented or carried out, I would presume?
- As for "easier", the change of colour isn't an immediate indicator?
- And, except for Afd, I'd like to see all XfD in daily log pages. For one thing, it helps provide context.
- For example, it could show rather immediately if someone was nominating 30 pages which might have something in common that might not normally have been noticed.
- And the context of the nominations would also be available historically. After all, would anyone want to go through all the AFDs of a certain day, checking timestamps, etc. in order to try to figure out what pages all happen to be up for deletion at a particular moment? It can be notated in archives, but it would make more sense to allow the discussions themselves to be the archives.
- Would you expand upon why you feel that one page - one nom would be preferrable?
- I honestly don't see any benefits but one: extreme length; if one or more discussions get very lengthy. But in those cases (which aren't common at CfD), those discussions are simply made into a subpage of that day's log. (Which means this allows for the single page benefit when needed, rather than having it for all, when it's not.) - jc37 08:54, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
- I have never understood the reason for not handling MfD nominations by means of a daily log given that MfD rarely receives more than 10 nominations on any given day (compared with ~100/day for AfD) and few discussions become very long. All things considered, I find the one page-one nom format of MfD less user- and closer-friendly than the daily log format. –Black Falcon (Talk) 22:11, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Category:Miscellaneous pages for deletion
The template {{mfd}} and its cousin currently do not put the pages into Category:Miscellaneous pages for deletion. I've left a note at the respective template talk. Something else currently populates the category with 51 userpages. i thought it might be due to User:Jw21/deUBdomain/notnarrow alt that had a wrong oldmfdfull tag, but fixing that didn't help.--Tikiwont (talk) 16:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Any ideas? I think we need to fix this.--Tikiwont (talk) 15:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- Those pages will get removed from the category when the job queue catches up. If you want to speed it up you could null edit the pages. –xeno (talk) 15:35, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks I see that they are down to 44, but I may consider to do that. Still I am more concerned about the first part, namely the cat not being populated by regular MFDs. If you have an idea for that as well, you can follow-up at the thread at the template talk.--Tikiwont (talk) 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- already did. =] –xeno (talk) 16:00, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks I see that they are down to 44, but I may consider to do that. Still I am more concerned about the first part, namely the cat not being populated by regular MFDs. If you have an idea for that as well, you can follow-up at the thread at the template talk.--Tikiwont (talk) 15:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- Those pages will get removed from the category when the job queue catches up. If you want to speed it up you could null edit the pages. –xeno (talk) 15:35, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Has been fixed by now, and I am doing the dummy edits as may are on unmaintained user pages to have the category clean, assuming that any stray nominations during the last month are found in some other way.--Tikiwont (talk) 16:04, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
forking articles during MfD
I created the first deletion tag on a MfD (incorrectly) at 16:13, 26 February 2009.[1] 7 minutes later, at 16:19, 26 February 2009, THF forked the article.[2] Editors are not supposed to fork articles which are in MfD/Afd. User:THF knows better. He then attempted to create a second MfD within the first.[3] I moved these comments to the talk page.[4] Ikip (talk) 17:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
- Do you think you can raise this dishonest misrepresentation about an edit conflict on a fourth or fifth page, since you seem intent on violating WP:MULTI? THF (talk) 17:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
WT:CSD. Stop the wholesale Deletion of the Usepages of Indefinitely Blocked Users
I have started a thread to Stop the wholesale Deletion of the Usepages of Indefinitely Blocked Users at WT:CSD. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- For information, there is a current discussion referencing the previous ones at Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy#Deletion of indefinitely blocked user talk pages. Toliar (talk) 20:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Extension to seven days
Given that Afd has been extended to seven days, see Wikipedia_talk:AFD#Proposal_to_change_the_length_of_deletion_discussions_to_7_days, does anyone object to lengthening the term here to seven days, due to the same reasons?--Aervanath (talk) 07:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- Since there've been no objections, I've implemented the change.--Aervanath (talk) 15:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Standardize closing template to go below header
I think this is one of the only xFD venues where the closure goes ABOVE the header, I'd suggest we standardize it so the closing template goes BELOW the header (unless there is some technical reason I haven't yet realized). I'm sure I'm not the only one who has trouble keeping straight which xF closing templates go above, and which go below, the header. –xeno talk 14:50, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Should disambiguation pages be brought to AFD, MFD, or RFD? (or a new venue)
I think there's sufficiently few instances that a new venue need not be created, but I do think we should provide some guidance on where to list disambiguation pages for discussion/deletion. Please provide your thoughts here: Wikipedia talk:Deletion discussions#Disambiguation pages for discussion/deletion. –xeno talk 16:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Closing MfD by blocked editor who used MFD as a continution of an edit war
A Man In Black (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log · edit summaries) who has now been blocked for 9 days for edit warring, had reverted three editors on the page 4 times. [5][6] [7] [8]
Less than two hours later, he put the entire project up for deletion, as his final act of edit warring.[9]
See: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron (4th nomination)
Since this MFD is simply a continuation of the edit warring, can this MFD be closed? Editors can open a new MFD if they wish. Is that possible? Ikip (talk) 17:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- At this point - I don't see the point in this, to be honest. The MFD is already in full swing. –xeno talk 18:01, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- There isn't a single policy extent that would support shutting down a process because the nom was later blocked for edit warring, and to do so now would be a very unfortunate encouragement to attacking nominators rather than focusing on content. The MfD is almost guaranteed to close as "keep" or "no consensus" at this point, but it should run so that views are expressed and, hopefully, the criticisms made by a number of editors beyond the currently blocked nominator, will be taken on board and lead to some improvements. I note the last MFD on this, from last summer, had not a single call for deletion or "reform" and even the evil, evil "blocked one" argued keep then. [10]. There's at least the indication of a trend in views on this, and at minimum that should be recorded and provide food for thought.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- On my request an admin shut down two AFDs by an indefinetly blocked editor just last week.
- Bali this nominator made the project editors comments and behavior central to his MfD nomination, so it is very disingenuous to support this booted editor and criticize me when I comment on the nominator's behavior in return. Ikip (talk) 19:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Disingenous to support this booted editor tktktk." What? I haven't "supported" anything or anyone but my own views in this. And yet, here you are, calling my actions "disingenuous." I yam what I yam, but disingenuous? I'm not direct, straight-forward and candid in my views? It isn't at all possible that i (and others) have honest concerns (reject them or not)? Focus on the issues at hand and not other editors, whatever your feud with Mr. Cash. And yes, an indef-blocked editor using a sockpuppet to get around the block is a far, far different thing than an editor in good standing making a nom and then later getting blocked for edit warring. If you don't see the difference already, i understand i won't be able to convince you.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Your comparison between a temporarily-blocked admin and an indefinitely-blocked sockpuppet of a banned user is suspect at best. Furthermore, this MFD has been in progress for longer than your example. –xeno talk 19:16, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Disingenous to support this booted editor tktktk." What? I haven't "supported" anything or anyone but my own views in this. And yet, here you are, calling my actions "disingenuous." I yam what I yam, but disingenuous? I'm not direct, straight-forward and candid in my views? It isn't at all possible that i (and others) have honest concerns (reject them or not)? Focus on the issues at hand and not other editors, whatever your feud with Mr. Cash. And yes, an indef-blocked editor using a sockpuppet to get around the block is a far, far different thing than an editor in good standing making a nom and then later getting blocked for edit warring. If you don't see the difference already, i understand i won't be able to convince you.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- There isn't a single policy extent that would support shutting down a process because the nom was later blocked for edit warring, and to do so now would be a very unfortunate encouragement to attacking nominators rather than focusing on content. The MfD is almost guaranteed to close as "keep" or "no consensus" at this point, but it should run so that views are expressed and, hopefully, the criticisms made by a number of editors beyond the currently blocked nominator, will be taken on board and lead to some improvements. I note the last MFD on this, from last summer, had not a single call for deletion or "reform" and even the evil, evil "blocked one" argued keep then. [10]. There's at least the indication of a trend in views on this, and at minimum that should be recorded and provide food for thought.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
xeno, this is simply the closest example I had. I don't know if this is even possible, that is why I came here.
Bali, you continue to defend AMIB by stating WP:IDONTLIKETHENOMINATOR but you repeatedly ignore that in AMIB's own MFD nomniation mentioned several behavioral issues. So AMIB is free to talk about behavioral issues (because he supports your stance), but other editors cannot?
This is what is disingenuous. Ikip (talk) 19:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- Let me be clear -- that he has since been blocked is completely irrelevant to that MfD and my opinions expressed there, and here. I have absolutely zero opinion on his edit warring block. I haven't looked into it and don't much care. If the block was bad, he'll get unblocked; if it was good, he'll have to take his medicine. Now, don't call me "disingeous"(sic) again (at least settle on a consistent spelling for it). You're now attacking me. Yes, I happen to broadly agree with amib that the ars is bad for wikipedia. Well, so what? Don't like my arguments? Disagree/refute/whatever. But desist in attacking me and otherwise seeking to personalize all of your content and policy disagreements.Bali ultimate (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- From the AFDs in the past, I see you always need the last word. So be it. Stop demanding one standard from one party, while excusing another. Again: AMIB is free to talk about behavioral issues (because he supports your stance), but other editors cannot? Ikip (talk) 20:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- Coment The initial point was that the entire MfD was a bad faith nomination of a temp-blocked incivil admin, initiated because he was unable to get his own way and so acted against consensus and guideline by initiating edit wars and violating 3RR. The nominator himself then opened the door to questioning the motives of individual editors with his opening summary, which itself violated WP:AGF, WP:NPA, and WP:CIVIL by impuning the integrity of ALL contributors of the ARS. The nominator's continued edit war with a very few members of the ARS and his disagreements with the guideline interpretations of those few is what culminated in this 4th MfD of the entire ARS. Since that "standard of attack" had been therein set, and seemingly accepted by many commenting, it is only WP:common sense for all involved there to address all relevent and related issues, as the MfD has itself become the RfC sought by so many. For any to on one hand decry any such defense, but on the other hand not chastise the original attacker, is itself supportive (intended or not) of his pattern of poor behavior and may encourage such incivilty in the future. That said, I agree with User:Bali ultimate that the process has gone too far to be stopped. However, I also feel it is improper to insist that members must sit quietly by as others decide if (unneccessary) surgery is required, and if so how sharp the blade must be. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 21:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
- Sir Walter Raleigh was treated a tad more sharply than the ARS is being treated -- or than people are proposing to treat this real issue. I suspect that using a process instead of a squadron is a sound solution (per jclemens' proposals) while opposing any change is likely to result in more draconian results which would not be to anyone's benefit, and certainly not to WP's benefit. Collect (talk) 21:59, 23 May 2009 (UTC)