User talk:Farsight001

Talk pages are for talking. :)

Removal of "Objections to Papacy" Material Inappropriate

Farsight001 - your removal of my additions to the "Objections to the Papacy" section of the "Pope" article were inappropriate. These objections to the Papacy are the common Protestant retorts to Papal claims based on Scripture. The New Revised Standard Version of the Bible even includes the "petra" and "petros" information in its foot-notes. There are many evangelical and Protestant Bible commentaries that note Matthew 18 and the seemingly unexceptional place the apostle Peter held within the early church as evidenced by Acts, Paul's prominence as an apostle, and Peter's own epistles. That you'd remove this information from the section of the article devoted to anti-papal arguments is puzzling, since these are the main arguments that evangelical Protestants make against the Papacy. As it is, the article gives the wrong impression that the main objections Protestants have to the Papacy have to do with past abuses of the office and its rejection of Church/State separation, when in fact most Protestants have serious Biblical and theological objections to the existence of a monarchical office within the Christian Church. The Catholic apologists and their convoluted, speculative interpretation of Matt. 16:16-18 receives prominent placement in the top section of the article, while I placed the Protestant object in an obscure paragraph toward the end of the article, out of respect for the fact that Catholicism should be able to speak for itself before other voices chime in. But removing this information from the article strikes me - and forgive me if I speculate improperly about your motives - as an attempt to keep the article pro-Papal, on the balance, rather than objectively surveying the range of thought on the subject. --ManicBrit (talk) 16:52, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello, Farsight. Thank you for responding so quickly to my rebuttal on your talk page. First, your view that Petra and Petros are equivalent words is simply the position of Catholic apologists, and is a matter of dispute, which is why the NRSV, translated by a committee of Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox scholars, notes it in the footnotes. My reason for including it in the "objections" section is simply that is a common Protestant objection, and the current section doesn't seem to correctly summarize Protestant objections. Perhaps, as a Catholic, you feel that Protestantism is an invalid religion, and therefore doesn't merit any substantial space in the article. Whatever you believe, the fact remains that the Protestant reformation was a rather big event in history, and Catholic-Protestant disputes are relevant to most students of Christianity.

I am going to revisit the article and put the following in the "Objections" section:

Many non-Catholics point out that Matthew 16:16-18 use two different forms of the word translated "rock." The Greek passage uses the masculine form "Petros" and the feminine form "petra." Protestant apologists sometimes claim that the "rock" on which the Church is built is not Peter, since Peter is "Petros," but Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ. Catholic apologists claim that since "Petros" and "petra" have the same root, the two words simply reflect their grammatical placement in the sentence and still refer to Peter.

Protestant apologists also cite sections of the New Testament (for example, James' apparent leadership role among the early apostles as recorded in Acts 15:19, Paul's rebuke of Peter in Galatians 2:11) that they say cast doubt on Peter's leadership role in the early Church as proof that the Papacy did not exist in Biblical times. Catholic apologists cite passages such as John 21:15-19 as proof that Peter exercised pastoral authority over the other apostles.

That seems like a fair enough summary of objections to the Papacy based on Greek grammar, with balance given to both sides. Since there are only three branches of Christianity (Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox, although perhaps you could split Pentecostalism off as a fourth), there's no reason why the most common Protestant objections wouldn't be included in the section. I will also, of course, place my contribution on the article's Discussion page and we can seek the consensus of others. Cheers. Hope to see you in Heaven after God forgives my "invincible ignorance" and lets me out of my millennia of Purgatorial Hell for not kneeling before His designated Authority on Earth. :) --71.232.168.33 (talk) 01:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

thank you

For taking care of the RCC page, especially in all your difficult dealings with the person who was trying to delete sourced and consensused information. NancyHeise ^talk 07:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Your participation is disruptive

If there truly is a wide-ranging consensus against my edits, not only should someone be able to present a coherent argument against them, but there should be no shortage of people to revert them, and thus it should not be necessary for someone who has acted in an egregiously uncivil manner and who has explicitly refused to participate in the talk page discussion to be the one to preform such edits. You cannot pick and choose what ways you will shun me. If you're shunning me, then you should not be falsely telling that I am engaging in vandalism, nor should you be reverting my edits.Heqwm2 (talk) 04:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

there was a coherent argument. You are just willfully closing your ears to anyone who disagrees with you. You have a history of disruptive edits on other pages for the same reason. If you don't want to abide by consensus(that was agreed upon before you even showed up at the page, as well as again after you started editing), then find another wiki to edit. I shunned the discussion, but that does'nt mean I'm just going to sit back and let you make disruptive edits all you wantFarsight001 (talk) 05:46, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Not agreeing with you is not the same as closing my ears, and saying things like "you can't fix NPOV by adding more POV" when making sure that every POV is mentioned is EXACTLY what NPOV means is not a coherent argument. Your accusations of bad faith are inappropriate anywhere, but they are especially inappropriate in edit summaries. I do not have a history of disruptive edits; I have a history of making edits that people, such as you, LABEL disuptive so that they can justify reverting them. I have already pointed out the Wiki policy says that NPOV trumps consensus. Rather than addressing that argument, you simply declared that you were shunning me, and then declared that I was "willfully closing [my] ears". What a hypocrite. And yes, if you refuse to explain why me edits are not valid, that does mean you shouldn't revert them. Reverting edits while rfusing to participate in discussions is the very definition of edit warring.Heqwm2 (talk) 00:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Look buddy. Please look. Your talk page has mention of blocks for improperly editing past articles. You have multiple warnings to stop vandalizing the Roman Catholic Church article, and no one on the rcc page agreed with your edits. I know it can seem like people are out to get you, but think of Occam's razor here - the simplest answer is most likely the right one. So is it more likely that one person (you) is in the wrong, or a bunch of people (everyone else)? I encourage you to calm down, and re-read very carefully npov, consensus, vandalism, notability, and reliability policies. There is far more than the one paragraph of npov policy you keep quoting at work here. Farsight001 (talk) 01:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

So,farsight,you think you can use the wiki policies againstme , THAT ARTICLE IS NEGATIVE BIASED AND NOT NEUTRAL,you let the real Alberto picture inside or there will be a real problem the letter of the archbishop is true,so you're afraid that everybody will see the true Alberto,I read the policies and that article that a roman catholic wrote is against the policies,it tells people that Alberto is a fraud but the truth is,that Alberto was a jesuit priest

I apologize ,I give up you're right.The R.C.C. is a true church.I will never vandalize that article again

Oh,The Inquisitions lasted 600 years,with the fourth crusade also came the inquisitions and you don't know how many were born at that time.What does the Obelisk in the Vatican stands for?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Solifugae (talk • contribs) 17:19, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I know that crosses are pagan and I know that freemasons use the obelisk worldwide. The execution on the cross was used in ancient babylon. Jesus died on the cross to conquer sin,death,hell and Satan.After 3 days Christ rose fom the dead.If you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour you shall be safed and go to heaven Acts 8:37 says:"And Phillip said,If thou believest with all thine heart ,thou mayest.And he answered and said,I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." But the R.C.C. removed that passage,because it contradicts it's doctrine. The R.C.C. says you've to be a good Catholic(confessions to priest,eat the wafer at the Eucharist,pray the rosary,good works etc.)to go to heaven... and all that awaits a faithful catholic is purgatory,(only found in catholic bibles and Apocrypha),and Catholics are not allowed to know that they will surely go to heaven,or?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Solifugae (talk • contribs) 16:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

So but for justification you've to take sacraments. and the Obelisk is the male sex organ of Baal,even Baphomet has it (Baphomet is worshiped by masons in the highest degrees (30°-33°)lower masons don't have heared of that name). In my catholic bible I didn't find Acts 8.37... you may have an other version and you should read the whole chapter of Matthew 5 If Chick is lying.You should ask William Schnoebelen,he had studied R.C.C. doctrine to become a priest,before he studied spiritism,became a witch and went to satanism.Schnoebelen is a Christian now,telling people about Jesus. (this information may make catholics angry.)

I know that Jesus says,love your enemies and that doesn't mean we've to agree with every religion,we've to warn the people,that they've to come out of false religion and believe Jesus if we don't warn them they'll will never hear the gospel and if they don't hear it and won't receive Jesus Christ they'll be cast into the lake of fire....^^^

.... and I gave my catholic bible away,but I still know some books of the Apocrypha:Macabee 1; Macabee 2;Tobias;Jesus Sirach... my catholic bible is MT "Mehrheitstext"(old catholic bible) and one more thing;you know her(this is my photo,taken of my catholic song book),it's the catholic virgin Mary (queen of heaven) and her son Jesus(think so!)... what's behind the queen of heaven,now we take a look at Jeremiah 7:18 "The children gather wood,and the fathers kindle the fire,and the women knead their dough,to make cakes to the Queen of Heaven,and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods,that they may provoke me to anger." this is Semiramis and Tammuz...

...how could I accept a religion that hides (I will say that hard)paganism with christianity and share the alter (Ecumenic movement) with other gods etc. ... and before kill and hate in God's name like Inquisitions,Crusades...

...do you think I swallow everything that Chick says without looking for proofs,the verses he quotes are right... ...I know a catholic priest in a country(he already died),some people I know went to the priest,but the priest didn't have a bible he used a pendulum to get information,he was very accurate...

^^^ Love means not to accept everything but instead warn them. Which father is better:A father who directs his child warns and guides him....

                    ... or a father who agrees with everything that the child does and allows him everything.          
                                                                                                                                        

If you believe that Jesus Christ would send a saved person into pugatory,you're deceived.

He only sends unsaved persons into purgatory,pugartory is hell.

I don't hate catholics,their doctrines are wrong,the catholics have been deceived,I warn them and want them to get saved.

New Consensus sought on lead sentence

Please come give us your opinion by voting here [1], Thanks! NancyHeise ^talk 17:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Farsight, thank you for coming to vote on article name. I supported sentence number two because it seems to be the only way to eliminate endless debate. The sentence makes no claims and both names reside side by side. The facts relating to which name is more official and common are then found in the note. No facts are omitted. We have to consider that most Readers to the page will not care what the name of the Church is -they are coming to find out something about the Church's beliefs or history. If they do care about the name, it is easy enough for them to notice the note next to Catholic Church! I realize that Soidi has not been the most amicable person to deal with here, but please know that Soidi was not the only person to have concerns over the lead sentence. NancyHeise ^talk 18:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, if I can try your patience a bit more- I am conducting now a new vote here [2] but this is on whether or not you think the sources support the article text in note 1 which follows Catholic Church in the lead sentence. Soidi has challenged that my sources do not support the text. Please come give me your opinion so I can have consensus either one way or the other so we can move forward. NancyHeise ^talk 03:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

One last vote please

Hi, Xandar conducted a new discussion on the use of "official" our original sentence going into FAC that survived Peer Review and several months of mutliple editors. I have agreed not to vote on this one but to agree to whatever consensus of editors decides. Can you please come back for one more vote here: [3]. Thanks for you help in deciding the matter once and for all. NancyHeise ^talk 15:59, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Reverting edits

Just a comment regarding reverting edits by others; watch out for multiple edits by the same user. You managed to revert the second edit by User:72.15.46.160 in article Protestantism but missed the prior edit. I have reverted that as well. I know how easy it is to not notice the prior edits. I find myself doing it as well. But unfortunately, that is the way a lot of bad edits get missed and remain in the article for extended periods of time. Thanks for taking the time to try to keep the article clean. It is sure a never ending job. Dbiel ^(Talk) 04:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Protestantism

I had to revert your edit to Protestantism, it is NOT a denomination. Lutheranism is but one small part of Protestantism and it is made up of many different denominations. Calling Protestantism a denomination would be similar to calling all cars built in the United States coupes[4]. Please that the time to read the following articles Denominationalism, Christian denomination and List of Christian denominations Dbiel ^(Talk) 07:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

It appears that wikipedia is using a vastly different definition of "denomination" than I am used to, which I find interesting because wikipedia it typically supposed to use the definitions found in the wiktionary, which are quite similar to what I understood denomination to mean and which certainly would classify protestantism as such.Farsight001 (talk) 08:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess it depends on how you read the Wikipedia Wiktionary definition A class, or society of individuals, called by the same name; a sect; as, a denomination of Christians.[5] The problem is that protestants are not called by the same name, they are known as Lutherans, Babtists etc. and even these denomination familes are further broken down into individual denominations. Based on your edit history, I might guess that you have a Catholic background. The Catholic Church (or Roman Catholic as most protestants would refer to is as) is very unique in terms of christian denominations. It has remained as a single denomination (for the most part) with papal authority based in Rome. The protestant denominations on the other hand, have become very fragmented. Dbiel ^(Talk) 09:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

But becoming fragmented does not make it not a denomination. Simply because there are smaller groups within the bigger group does not mean the bigger group cannot itself be a denomination. "A class, or society of individuals, called by the same name" is exactly what protestants are. Though that is not quite the definition from wiktionary that I would be using. But this is of little matter. Even if it were right for wikipedia to call protestantism a denomination, I've been lurking around, and there's literally hundreds of articles in which this correction would need to be made, as well as in more than a few templates as well. Frankly, that's just too much work.Farsight001 (talk) 10:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that fragmentation itself does not make a denomination, but as you said, Wikipedia does use a slightly (actually you said vastly) different definition (but one I personally believe does not conflict with the Wiktionary version, but does expand it into a bit more detail "A Christian denomination is an identifiable religious body under a common name, structure, and doctrine within Christianity" (I am sorry, but I had a confusing typo in my 1st reply which I have struck out and edited) Which Wiktionary definition would you be using, if not the one I posted above? Dbiel ^(Talk) 11:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Criticism etc.

As you have correctly pointed out, the author in question is a poor reference. How can he come up with a new figure after 400 years? His technique for doing so has not been revealed. As a historian, if scholarly, he might be permitted to come up with a new analysis of the facts but not to invent new ones without some revealed methodology.

I have requested a formal comment (RFC). These take forever. I have one in from the end of November that hasn't yet been answered, same category (history). Had to renew it once. We can ask for a "second opinion," which is supposed to be reserved for one-on-one arguments, but we can bend the rules. These are "quick and dirty" and we might not get anyone who is as scholarly as any of us, nevermind an expert! So it is a risk, but at least it is quick!

Or we can try mediation, but we would probably be turned down having not exhausted "all other" avenues. Ironically, this would be quicker than the RFC!

Yet another way, is to get him on a three reversion, alternating between you and I. This has about a 50% chance of working, but we might be affected as well!  :)

Very noticeably that for an article which is critical of the Catholic church, no other editor is supporting him, which means they agree with us but don't want to say so because they generally dislike the Church!

What do you think is the best way to handle him. He will not be persuaded by us no matter what we say.

Thanks for leading this argument! Student7 (talk) 22:22, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

RFM

I began a Request for Mediation here [6] and listed you as a party. Please sign your name here [7] to agree to participate. Thanks. NancyHeise ^talk 06:24, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

(You're a popular guy!  :)

A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church, and indicate whether you agree or disagree to mediation. If you are unfamiliar with mediation on Wikipedia, please refer to Wikipedia:Mediation. Please note there is a seven-day time limit on all parties responding to the request with their agreement or disagreement to mediation. Thanks, Student7 (talk) 12:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Farsight - Please could you go to the mediation page and state whether or not you agree to the mediation? We're just waiting for you now. Regards, Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 21:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Request for mediation accepted

A Request for Mediation to which you were are a party has been accepted. You can find more information on the case subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church. For the Mediation Committee, Ryan Postlethwaite 06:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

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Mediation for Criticism of the RCC

Mediation has begun for the case Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church. Please place Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church on your watchlist and make a brief statement there (on the talk page) to acknowledge this. If you wish to make a very brief statement about the case itself, you may do so at the same time. Thanks much! KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Roman Catholic Church

Hi Farsight, I have made a motion to close the mediation for reasons described here [8]. Please come and post either your agreement or disagreement at the same link. Thanks. NancyHeise ^talk 17:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Voting

Farsight, we are voting at mediation on the name of the Church here [9]. Are you OK with changing the article name to Catholic Church and having a lead sentence that states "The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church"? Please cast your vote so we can either find consensus or not for this suggestion. Thanks.

RCC mediation

A draft of the note under mediation is up for comments here [10]. Thanks, NancyHeise ^talk 11:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

RCC Mediation

Your input is needed here [11] to decide on one of three options. Thanks, NancyHeise ^talk 03:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

RCC mediation

Sorry to bother you again, we now have an option 4 to consider since no one could agree on 1,2 or 3. Can you please come vote again? [12] Thanks, NancyHeise ^talk 18:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Church mediation outcome

Hi, you are receiving this message because you were an original party to the mediation process regarding the Catholic Church name issue. The mediation outcome has been summarized and moved to the Catholic Church talk page here [13]. Please feel free to come join our discussion of the outcome taking place now before making the actual changes in the article. Thanks for your help and kind cooperation toward a mutually agreeable solution. NancyHeise ^talk 14:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Jesus

Please don't revert or change edits that you haven't discussed. Thanks. Noloop (talk) 16:51, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion is a very healthy part of the content dispute resolution process. But deleting large portions of sourced text from articles is a form of vandalism, so restoring the content is perfectly fine. Please ignore the "false" warning issued by Noloop above. -Andrew c ^[talk] 22:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Unathourised removal of material

I see that Farsight001 seems to view this as his own personal page. I raised issues under discussion, and put a very short item in controveries relating to the role of the Jesuits in the Inquisition. Remember, we are talking about an event covering hundreds of years with millions of innocent people killed, by the most cruel ways the human mind has ever conceived. It is totally unacceptable for Farsight001 to repeatedly remove this material. If it is done again, I will request mediation and also for Farsight001 to be barred from this page. From the above he has a long history of presumptuous intervention, without any discussion, and the result has been this page has turned into a Jesuit propaganda site instead of an accurate representation of history. /AD 79.135.110.169 (talk) 12:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)/