Talk:Obsello Absenta

Please stop using Wikipedia as an advertising platform for Obsello. You have also be planting references of dubious value referencing this brand on the main Absinthe page and elsewhere. FortDaniel (talk) 11:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

As a major contributor to the absinthe article in Wikipedia I think the accolades are very relevant to the history of the brand. Especially since Obsello is the international representative of the third critical style of absinthe. However I do agree with the placement of the accolades at the bottom. I will investigate the placement of the brand in the absinthe article to ensure the company is not trying to use the article for advertising purposes.

Cheers, Nightcafe1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightcafe1 (talk • contribs) 06:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Notability and reliable sources

"The Obsello was entered into the 2008 San Fransisco World Spirits Competition and was awarded a bronze medal." Source: http://www.absinthe.se/reviews/spain.html?obsello That is enough notability and reliable source for me. Libido (talk) 00:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Why does a bronze medal at a competition make this brand notable? FortDaniel (talk) 07:22, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I would further add this case study as evidence of the brands importance: http://obsello.com/casestudy.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightcafe1 (talk • contribs) 01:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

This is an article written by Obsello which makes claims about competition in the Las Vegas market. I fail to understand why this makes Obsello worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia.FortDaniel (talk) 07:22, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Fort Daniel, your argument was "This is not a notable brand of absinthe, it is mentioned in no reliable sources" The subject of debate is not your opinion but the importance or prominence of the brand. The case study above speaks to the brands importance as the market leader in a major US city. Notably it is written and published by the company however I do think it speaks to the significance of the brand.

Further evidence of the brands importance can be found below in links to the NY Times, Imbibe Magazine, the Chicago Beverage Testing Institute, Mutineer Magazine, The San Francisco World Spirits Competition, The Wormwood Society, Blue review, and the fact that a simple google search for the brand turns up over 4500 references. I trust these references are sufficient to calm your concerns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/dining/reviews/13wine.html?pagewanted=2 http://www.imbibemagazine.com/component/option,com_customproperties/Itemid,0/tagId,56/task,tag/ http://www.tastings.com/scout_spirits.lasso?id=186102 http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/111/s_7966dd4a82444971806427c13ffadb3b.jpg http://www.sfspiritscomp.com/pdfs/09ResultsClass.pdf http://www.wormwoodsociety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=432 http://www.obsello.com/rev1.pdf

If you need further substantiating evidence please ask rather than post opinions with deletion process recommendations. I cannot imagine what type of evidence you are looking for beyond the NY Times, Imbibe, SF World Spirits Awards and Chicago beverage Testing Institute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bitterherbs1 (talk • contribs) 14:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The " "This is not a notable brand of absinthe, it is mentioned in no reliable sources" argument was not proposed by me. There is a long standing problem with Obsello &/or their rather obvious PR team abusing Wikipedia as an advertising platform. The latest is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Alexander_Davis

Using press releases as source material to again promote this brand. In case you are not aware Wikipedia is NOT an advertising platform for the PR industry. Obsello is not a notable brand, it's purple prose PR campaign is very noticeable though FortDaniel (talk) 15:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello FortDaniel, how are you defining noteworthy brand? The NY Times, Imbibe, BTI, SF wsc, wormwood society, etc are objective sources.

Is it just that you dont feel it is a noteworthy brand?

As a contributor to the topic of absinthe and somewhat of an expert I would argue that Obsello is clearly a noteworthy brand. They have received a lot of press and are even featured on the front page of the wormwood society page (a 2000 member society that speaks as the authority on absinthe in the United States) and are referenced by third party sights in German, Spanish, and English. Unlike other brands such as Lucid, which also has a wikipedia page, Obsello has an international presence.

There are some references to company press releases in the article which does strike me as inappropriate, but the majority come from non-bias third party sources. I suggest perhaps we dig for non-bias sources for the few statements supported by press releases and change the supporting evidence or delete the content supported by them. I would be happy to do so over the next few days. I suspect other contributors from the absinthe article may also wish to weigh in on the topic. I also suspect they will second me regarding this brand.

As for the company owners page, I find it interesting as an absinthe buff. Perhaps it is not interesting to the entire community. I do not know what the wikipedia criteria is for biographical material since I have never written any. If you like I can look into it? Parts of the page do seem to be well supported.

If you are questioning my intentions, You can see my writing in several categories related to absinthe but unrelated to any brands. I have also written about noteworthy brands and removed pointless marketing about non-noteworthy brands from the absinthe page over the past several years. Nightcafe1 (talk) 16:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

This was recently placed on the main absinthe article: "With the introduction of Obsello Absenta, a traditional Spanish Absinthe, in 2008 the United States officially sold all three historical styles of the beverage" and was deleted by Vapeur because "Absenta not noted in historical literature as a distinctive style" It was a Wiki editor that has suggested that both pages be deleted and I tend to agree, just becuase the brand has won a bronze medal and has been mentioned by a few sources - does that constitute being noteworthy of inclusion? I am also not sure why you use the term "community"? Isn't Wikipedia an encyclopedia.....perhaps not anymore. FortDaniel (talk) 16:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

"just becuase the brand has won a bronze medal and has been mentioned by a few sources"

That is not an objective analysis and I am beginning to suspect you are also part of a PR campaign. The brand won multiple medals including a gold medal in Chicago, and a silver in SF as well as various other awards. I looked up the awards posted in the page and they all check out.

Looking up your past edits you seem to have an axe to grind with this particular company? It seems you have dedicated your Wikipedia editing almost entirely to this brand… I find it hard to imagine that you come here only to remove text from absinthe articles yet do not contribute.

With regard to the absenta style debate, I respectfully disagree with Vaepur on this point. I have voiced that in the past. The debate between style and language is a long running and muddy issue and the lack of historical documentation is logical since absenta started to gain in popularity after the French and Swiss ban.Nightcafe1 (talk) 19:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• I argued that it wasn't notable. "They have received a lot of press": care to actually present the sources, rather than just asserting it? If I don't see evidence of substantial coverage in independent reliable sources soon, I will think about sending this to AfD. p.s. Asking for a Good article review was, uh, optimistic. Fences&Windows 19:38, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello Fences and windows, Here you go (as posted above).

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/13/dining/reviews/13wine.html?pagewanted=2 http://www.imbibemagazine.com/component/option,com_customproperties/Itemid,0/tagId,56/task,tag/ http://www.tastings.com/scout_spirits.lasso?id=186102 http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/111/s_7966dd4a82444971806427c13ffadb3b.jpg http://www.sfspiritscomp.com/pdfs/09ResultsClass.pdf http://www.wormwoodsociety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=432 http://www.obsello.com/rev1.pdf

I will be happy to flesh out the article over the next few weeks. I have a personal interest in absinthe and know enough, that with proper time to research, I think I could build the article into a GA. Nightcafe1 (talk) 21:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion on what constitutes substantial coverage in reliable sources obviously differs from mine. There is a passing mention in NY Times, the Imbibe Magazine "article" is simply a mention in a drinks recipe, I doubt Tastings.com would qualify as a reliable source, that magazine cover is too tiny to make out, I need evidence that the SF Spirit Competition is notable, the Wormwood Society is definitely not a reliable source, and the "Blue Reviews" is a small mention, and may not be a reliable source, especially as it makes money out of charging for pictures of the products to appear. Like I said, I'll be sending this to AfD soon if the sourcing doesn't improve, I wouldn't wait a few weeks to improve it. Fences&Windows 22:01, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Would you care to enlighten me as to what you consider a noteworthy brand of spirits?

From my perspective there are two ways to judge this. Like a movie you can judge presence in pop-culture and only include Hollywood blockbusters or you can include notable indie films that have won many awards.

As an absinthe fan I can say Obsello is about as big as an indie spirit can get. The NY Times article was a list of the top 10 brands sold in the USA. The Beverage Testing Awards is the largest competition in the industry and the SF awards are second. Very few brands of spirits ever win medals in both competitions.

Blue Reviews is the magazine of Anthony Dias Blue one of the most respected critics in the industry. That is what his reviews look like.

The brand is on the cover of the Mutineer Magazine and also featured in the article inside. The magazine is not on the internet but I subscribe to it.

The wormwood-society is a non-bias 2000 member organization. From the site: “The Wormwood Society is a non-profit educational and consumer advocacy organization focused on providing current, historically and scientifically accurate information about absinthe, the most maligned and misunderstood drink in history.”

I found this on the internet as well: http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/absinthe-what-s-it-all-about-episode-658/16828926

And

http://www.drinkupny.com/Imbibe_Sale_s/147.htm

and

http://www.sacbee.com/1109/story/1506696.html

If you cannot wait two weeks for me to re-edit the page... Perhaps you should help with editing? I don´t think it is helpful to remove an article like this. Especially for a brand that I believe is doing a lot of good for the absinthe category.Nightcafe1 (talk) 23:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Added 40+ references to the page, and edited some text. Going to work now.Nightcafe1 (talk) 13:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

side debate

Hello Nightcafe1, "the lack of historical documentation is logical since absenta started to gain in popularity after the French and Swiss ban" Can you explain this point for me please? FortDaniel (talk) 13:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello FortDaniel. I would love to explain this. You have touched on a subject close to my heart. So absinthe originated as a medicine in Switzerland. It made the leap to beverage in France and and Switzerland and proceeded to explode in France over the course of 100 years becoming the most widely consumed spirit in France. After the ban many distilleries relocated or opened divisions in Catalonia Spain. Pernod was definitely the most famous of these but not the only one. From around 1930-1940 Absinthe exploded in the area spawning dozens of new brands, some of which were very famous such as Montaña.

At the time when most historical documents related to absinthe were written "Absenta" did not yet exist or was a very minor foot note. It did not rise to great importance until after 1921 and really not until 1930. The stylistic change I argue for has to do with the addition of citric compounds in these brands from the period when Spanish absinthe was evolving to fit its new consumers tastes. I am still looking for iron clad documentation of this but its hard to come by. There was not a lot of writing on the subject that survived fascism and the war. However there are a few absinthe historians who have written on the topic. Absinthe.se is a great english language resource. Nightcafe1 (talk) 19:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. "a few absinthe historians who have written on the topic" Can you provide a reference please? "not a lot of writing on the subject that survived fascism and the war". The same argument that you use has also been used by proponents of Bohemian "Absinth" I believe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian-style_absinth

Isn't this is the thesis of Dr Perhaps from the University of Maybe? I do not doubt your sincerity and enthusiam, but is Wikipedia the place for conjecture? I would suggest not. FortDaniel (talk) 22:31, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest we move this debate to our talk pages since it does not directly relate to the discussion at hand. This is a topic I am personally interested in, but again not directly relevant to Obsello or its wikipedia page. Nightcafe1 (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Obsello Absenta/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

Seems rather short and unfinished at first sight.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   This article is not ready for GA and needs a lot of work.

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Only 3 references

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Not ref'd enough

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   Again, this is close to a stub.

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Needs a lot of work before it is ready to be a GA. --The New Mikemoral ♪♫ 18:34, 1 July 2009 (UTC)