Talk:Black Clouds & Silver Linings

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Unreleased Material

DO NOT POST THE UNRELEASED COVER SONGS ON HERE. THE BAND THEMSELVES HAVE REQUESTED THIS. I am a moderator at dreamtheaterforums.org, a site admined by someone who has a direct line to Mike Portnoy. This information should not be in public yet. Unfortunately, it is on many third party websites. But there are many people who want to be surprised at this information. Please only list the songs as they are released. Splent (talk) 22:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The songs are cited to a reliable, third party source (found here). As per WP guidelines this is what is needed for inclusion in the article. I am aware of the band's wishes, but we cannot allow any party to control what is said about them here per WP:NPOV. My apologies if we spoil someone's surprise, but as with any topic on WP if you don't want to know about it, don't read the article. black ngold29 01:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how that makes it neutral, as it was information that was meant to be kept secret, and was posted early by a site that wasn't supposed to. It's on Blabbermouth now, too, and it was not supposed to be. I guess I just view this as breaking rules because on the forum I'm on there is no talking about leaked tracks and I'm under the impression that leaked information should be kept out of articles/posts. Splent (talk) 22:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I took down the tracks again. While it may be a third party site, it has not been confirmed by the band as being true or not. There is no indication that the information is actually right or not. Splent (talk) 03:41, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is not your forum, we have different rules here (btw, I frequent that forum as well). Like I said above all we need is a reliable source, even if it is not correct it can still be legitimately added because it's cited to that source; it's up to each individual to evaluate the source. I am a bit confused as to why you left the Iron Maiden song, which has not been confirmed by the band. Bottom line: The info has been removed from DeepDiscount, so I won't re-add it, but for future reference no entity has the right to remove info which can be found on other reliable sources simply because they want to. black ngold29 04:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No hard feelings. But whether I was on the forum or not, there still was no guarantee that the information was right. The Iron Maiden song has been released already in an Iron Maiden tribute album last year, so that is why I left that song up. Splent (talk) 11:27, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The third party source no longer includes the cited information, so I'm taking this down. PerpetualChange —Preceding undated comment added 21:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Tracklisting

I have changed the tracklisting to a another format (using the Train of Thought page as reference).

As "The Shattered Fortress" is said to have Steps X-XII in the AA Suite, I've put those up but left the section names blank.
_~~N a N 20:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All right, that's cool. Thanks. BT^C 20:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Change the name to 12 Steps Suite. Don't have the source, but Portnoy said on the Eddie Trunks show that it should be referred to as that. Does anyone have a source? Perpetualchange (talk) 18:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it should be moved, here's a link to the interview. black ngold29 20:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Song lengths

Is this site a reliable source?

http://www.daveling.co.uk/diary.htm

It is what is currently being sourced for the song lengths. However, the song lengths aren't really being assigned to a song, so is this a keeper or no, since it has the song lengths of this album?

Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 04:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That appears to be a personal blog, which is not a WP:RS. black ngold29 04:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thought as much. It's not reliable. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 03:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found this on Encyclopaedia Metallum:[1]. Is that a reliable source? User:Dexxrot —Preceding undated comment added 07:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC).[reply]

I doubt it; it probably comes from the same source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.134.187.77 (talk) 01:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopaedia Metallum is a nice site, but it is not a reliable source. Sites where people can freely edit content are not reliables source for wikipedia. I used to source it too, but I learned eventually. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 03:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC

It seems the track lengths have come back, this time with a source cited, that seems to be nothing other than that same link posted on Mike Portnoy's forum, which I do not think was confirmed by him. Unless I'm missing something, I think they need to come down again.

Removed. It's difficult to warn anyone about this because it is so many different IPs adding them. black ngold29 17:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These constant additions of the song lengths are sickening me. I don't understand how people disregard the warnings so much and either add no source or add an unreliable source, both of which drive me mad. When will it end!!?!??! Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 02:31, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've requested semi-protection of the page, hopefully they'll release the lengths soon. black ngold29 03:17, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's good. You may or may not know that I previously submitted this page to be semi-protected back when the problem with the song lengths was still fairly fresh. It was denied. Hopefully, with more of these events happening, the proposal will be accepted. I would love it if this page got semi-protected. Thank you for doing that. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 03:32, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome! It got semi-protected! Yes! Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 02:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is this sufficiently confirmed? http://faq.dtnorway.com/question/1101 - it comes from the promo itself. 88.90.215.130 (talk) 00:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What promo? I don't believe that site is officially affiliated with the band. black ngold29 00:08, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The promo of the album. That the site has. Due to it being an official dream theater fanclub. Hence - officially affiliated with the band. But if you don't believe me: http://dtnorway.com/bcslpromo.jpg Noxon (talk) 13:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That does add some credibility to the song lengths, but I wouldn't go on wikipedia and add the song lengths just yet. The album is a promo album, and not a final draft. Song lengths are still subject to change for the final draft of the album. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 22:28, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But now there's an "approximate" length on many of the songs, instead of the absolute ones that are proven above, based solely on a review coming from the -very same promo-. Either change it to the details on the promo, or remove the tracklengths altogether. If the promo turns out to be "unfinished" (something that is EXTREMELY unlikely at this point), it's easy enough to fix later. Therefore i updated it now to contain this information. You'll also see that these numbers coincide by the numbers from Dave Ling. How much more confirmation do you need until you accept that this is it? Noxon (talk) 01:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Aw, crap. Maybe I shouldn't have rejected that photograph. I'll consult the main editor about this photo and see what he says. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 02:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) I agree with what Backtable has said so far. I suppose at this point it seems that no matter what we try the lengths will find a way onto the article. Technically there still isn't a reliable source (no picture is reliable thanks to Photoshop), but I would rather have the lenghs from the picture than the approximate ones that are in there now. black ngold29 03:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just to keep this page up to speed, I added a sentence that the lengths are based on the promo album and may not be final. As I said above that source is probably not technically reliable, but for a temporary addition (the album is due out in 57 days, and we should have track length confirmation even sooner) I think its inclusion is an acceptable compromise to all of the controversey around the section. black ngold29 06:05, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, now the band says The Count of Tuscany is 18:18. The Metalhammer review says "clocking in at over nineteen minutes". Wha? 64.91.201.195 (talk) 03:15, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the 19-minute time listing changing to 18:18 is probably a result of the 19-minute length being of the promo length and the 18:18 length being the final draft or so. That's my best guess. Also, where does the band make this claim at? Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 03:31, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Roadrunner store says 18:18. I would agree the 19 minute one probably wasn't final. black ngold29 04:19, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Content change request

{{editprotected}} I will start by thanking User:SoWhy for the lock of Black Clouds & Silver Linings it was much needed, unfortunately it is now locked with the track lengths cited to a personal blog which is not a WP:RS, nor does it actually list which songs are which lengths, as it simply gives a list of numbers. The lengths have been added/removed for a few days now, but it was only recently somebody provided that site as a reference. Discussion on the talk page above and hidden messeges (in multiple places) have been ignored. If you could remove the lengths for that reason it would be appreciated. Thank you. black ngold29 13:39, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Blackngold is right. I already pointed out in my summary for editing the page earlier (I'm on a different IP address right now) that the link is NOT a reliable source, because it's a personal blog. Sure, all of the track lengths add to approximately 75 minutes and 22 seconds, which is plausible as Mike Portnoy stated that the album is around 75 minutes long, but the personal blog is more likely to be opinionated rather than factual.

Basically, to sum this all up: Sure, you may have found a source for the track lengths, but that source, which is a personal blog, is NOT reliable. A more reliable source would be from Dream Theater's website or Roadrunner Records' website. Am I wrong? I hope this cleared things up. The track lengths should be removed. -207.233.110.70 (talk) 17:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 23:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Damn editing disputes! Geez, there were even warnings posted not to add them! Dang anonymous users ignoring the warnings! By the way, I requested the other day to that protection page that this page would be semi-protected, but it was declined. This sucks that this page has to be immune from editing for seven days, all because of some petty little fight started by an anonymous user that ignored the warnings! Damnation! By the way, sorry about the anger expressed in this post. It was not directed to anyone on this talk page (keyword: this talk page). Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 03:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I don't see reasons for this article to be fully protected. --ProgressiveAeternus ^(talk) 13:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As much as I hate the fact that it's fully protected, I'm not against the decision. The editing dispute went on for a long time and this is an appropriate solution to that dispute. It happened on the Cynic (band) page with some genre format disputes, and that basically solved the dispute. Peace. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 01:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Past Tense

{{editprotected}}

A video will be shot in March for the album's first single...

This sentence above taken from the article should be in past tense.RockyMM (talk) 07:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done, thanks. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Leak section?

The first two songs on the album were leaked today or yesterday, on the Mike Portnoy forum there's a thread where an admin says that a radio station broadcasted them and then put the podcasts on the web. I dont know if that's a reputable source and if it is, I don't know if the album should get a leak section. I know other albums like Octavarium got a pre-release leak section, was wondering if this album should get one. Just checkin. Austin Joseph Billings 01:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragonfly298 (talk • contribs)

I would like to see a better source than a forum, even if it is Portnoy's, before I'd support adding that. black ngold29 01:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

mmmk, it might show up on some news sources or maybe the dt website soon. thanks :) Austin Joseph Billings 01:44, 20 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragonfly298 (talk • contribs)

I have a link to the radio station that linked them and have heard the songs. I can post it if you all think that would be a good enough source. 141.225.76.23 (talk) 02:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I actually got the songs myself, but I'm not sure what radio station posted them. Link us and that may be a good enough source Austin Joseph Billings 02:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

http://ww1.rtp.pt/multimedia/index.php?prog=1068 4-16 has one song 14 minutes in. 4-17 has a song 16 minutes in. 141.225.76.23 (talk) 02:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And the links are now removed. 141.225.76.23 (talk) 19:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They're definitely out there now. If someone can find a definitive link saying so, I'd say it's worth mentioning.142.68.216.249 (talk) 03:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems obvious at this point that they are spreading, but unless we can get a WP:RS to back that up it shouldn't be added. Most have probably noticed the above section about track lengths, but I don't even see a source that's as substantial as the one we're using for those. black ngold29 06:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if it's a good enough source, but here's an official statement on the issue from one of the moderators on Mike Portnoy's official forum. http://www.mikeportnoy.com/forum/m2296597.aspx 142.68.217.255 (talk) 00:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Best of Times

It's been stated by both Mike Portnoy(in the Eddie Trunk interview)and Jordan Rudess(in the DT Norway interview) that the song "The Best of Times" was written about Mike Portnoy's father. There should be a page for this song that states this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheMuffinMan92 (talk • contribs) 17:25, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are guidelines for notability which the song must meet before it has its own article. If cited, you are welcome to add that info to this article. black ngold29 17:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Legit review of the album, anywhere to fit it in?

http://www.metalhammer.co.uk/news/dream-theater-album-review-black-clouds-and-silver-linings-track-by-track/

Richard Wilson, author of their official book 'Lifting Shadows off a Dream'. Surely that's a legit source. Worth putting it in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.143.146 (talk) 15:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that looks pretty good (both the source and the article itself). I will add a summary of it as soon as I can, but if somebody else wants to go for it please do! black ngold29 15:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, so we know, thanks to metalhammer, that the songs are, in this order: over 16 minutes, about 8:30, just over five, over twelve, unknown, and over nineteen minutes. Why are we still in doubt that the personal DT blog's 16:10, 8:35, 5:25, 12:49, 13:07, and 19:16 are the right track lengths? It's too much of a coincidence for an "unreliable source" to be that accurate before the public even knew so much as the length of A Rite of Passage. 64.91.201.195 (talk) 02:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deluxe Edition

According to Roadrunner, there's going to be a very limited run of the album with a special packaging, the complete 3 CD special edition, a DVD which allows fans to remix the album, a mouse mat, a ticket (100 of which will win a meet and greet with the band), a lithograph of the album art, and the vinyl edition.

http://roadrunnerrecords.co.uk/release/Black+Clouds+%26+Silver+Linings

If someone could update the page with this in the correct format, that would be great. 142.177.58.68 (talk) 22:35, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only place I've seen any other news on this subject it the pre-order option on the Best Buy website.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1990625&skuId=17832375&type=product Other than that I've haven't heard anythign about this version of the CD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.29.89 (talk) 21:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a video of Mike Portnoy describing the deluxe set in detail. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynXwO7-sGZQ

As well, here's the pre-order page from Roadrunner. http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blackclouds/ It's definitely confirmed. 142.68.221.217 (talk) 21:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Metal Hammer 5 star rating?

I know that Metal Hammer's review was definitely favorable towards the album, but where on the site does it show that they gave it a score of 5/5 stars? I don't see it anywhere. -ACDCGAMER (talk) 18:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. black ngold29 04:20, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Different Releases/Versions coming out

Could we get a "Releases" type section on the article with this information:

http://www.theomegaorder.com/DREAM-THEATER-Black-Clouds-Silver-Linings-Producer-Edition?sc=13&category=198752&partner=roadrunnerrecords

So far we have the following- 1 CD Standard Edition, 3-CD Special Edition, 2-LP Vinyl Release, And the Deluxe Collector's Edition/Producer Edition 4-Disc/2-LP box set... a section in the article explaining these 4 versions would be nice! Thanks! MarkyMarc413 (talk) 18:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the track listing for the vinyl edition is different than the CD edition: http://www.theomegaorder.com/DREAM-THEATER-Black-Clouds-Silver-Linings-double-vinyl Can we add this in there as well? MarkyMarc413 (talk) 20:28, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to ruin the fun, but I have seem to find the covers songs. Altough there are eight of those, it clearly are covers. I don't how to think of it, since I don't want to ruin the excitment, but I found them on CDON.se from Sweden when looking for a preorder of the album. It's scary! http://cdon.se/musik/dream_theater/black_clouds_%26_silver_linings_(3cd_deluxe_ed.)-4200623 Check under the "spårinfo". Can someone please help me verify this. This is my first post and I made this account just for this! --Suppers Ready (talk) 11:14, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, "Tenement Funster/Flick Of The Wrist/Lily Of The Valley" looks to be a Queen medley as all three of those songs are Queen tracks (after a quick Google Search). The last three are by Zebra, King Crimson and Iron Maiden (already known), respectively. "Stargazer" is likely by Rainbow, judging by it's length and "Odyssey" is likely a song by Kiss from "Music from 'The Elder'".MarkyMarc413 (talk) 02:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Roadrunner website claims that the 6 cover tracks are "newly recorded". As the To Tame A Land cover was recorded for a Maiden tribute CD does that rule it out? 78.146.205.109 (talk) 13:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we can say it rules out or confirms anything just yet. They said one per week for the six weeks leading up to release, which is 42 days. Well, there are 42 days left until release so they should confirm the first one any day (or hour) now. black ngold29 16:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, according to the following link, the covers will be released (one per week) starting the 19th, making only 5 covers to see release before the release date of BC&SL, which might mean they won't release "To Tame A Land" because, technically, it was already released on Maiden Heaven. - http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blackclouds/ MarkyMarc413 (talk) 01:58, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We can't assume that "To Tame A Land" will be one of the covers until the band confirms it. I guess they'll just reveal the final cover on June 23. black ngold29 02:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I assumed they just wouldn't tell us what the last one will be before the album comes out anyways, because of the date of the first announcement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.114.64.254 (talk) 04:07, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I might be wrong, but if I recall correctly, in one of the two Eddie Trunk interviews MP gave (probably the second one) back in March, I believe MP said one of the 6 covers was previously released (last year), but did not allude to the title, but it's pretty much assumed that it was "To Tame A Land". Can anyone find that interview and double-check? MarkyMarc413 (talk) 05:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is that the real list there or did someone assume it to be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.33.153 (talk) 19:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there was one there and it was cited to a website which seemed decently legit to me. I wasn't going to remove it because as had been proven in the past random IPs will just come and re-add it. Opposite of my thinking an IP has now removed the list without explination; I have reverted that edit, but if IPs (who rarely venture onto the talk page, although a few have proven the exception here) revert and re-add it could get confusing. black ngold29 21:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced leak?

Call me a bit antithetical to the Wiki norm, but isn't the Youtube leak a "source"?

Meanwhile, the leaked version of The Count of Tuscany is the 19-minute version. Now what? 64.91.218.136 (talk) 03:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

YouTube isn't considered a reliable source unless the video is coming from something like Dream Theater's official feed. We can't call random people who have uploaded a leaked song offcial because has been stated recently by Portnoy it's probably not good quality, nor do we have any way of knowing if it's the real version. black ngold29 03:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Basically put, leaks are usually of utmost unimportance and doesn't deserve to be on wikipedia. It gets on my nerves when there is an influx of "this album got leaked!!?!!?" useless information on the same page. I have plenty of other stuff to do than to look at an edit saying "this album got leaked on torrents" or "it was officially leaked on [date here]". A lot of the time, the websites aren't even pointed out. It seriously gets on my nerves. Thank you, Blackgold29, for helping patrol this page and for helping weed out the unimportant leak edits. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 03:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I WOULD want to know when the album has leaked (if I didn´t already know) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.115.254.137 (talk) 17:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Covers removed?

Before, the titles of the songs that would be on the cover disc were up. Now, they are not. What gives? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.76.236 (talk) 14:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Roll this page up and check the first section. --ProgressiveAeternus ^(talk) 16:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Earlier release date in Germany

I have the album already (3CD deluxe edition). It was released on Friday in Germany. Going to see Dream Theater live on Tuesday when the album is released in the US, funny enough. Perhaps the release dates for other countries, if different, should be mentioned. Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:27, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that wouldn't be a bad thing to put on the article, if supplied with some sources to back it up. I don't doubt you, but it needs sources nonetheless. Backtable^{Speak to Me}about what I have done 21:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rudess and the iPhone

I just saw the video used as a citation, but it doesn't actually show Rudess saying that he used the iPhone (specifically Bebot) at any time on the album. Unless someone verifies that, I'm going to take it out. --Snaxe/fow (talk) 05:36, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. --Aeternus ^(talk) 09:08, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He does use it, it's been said a bunch of times and he even used it live at Download, which may also be on YouTube. Regardless, I don't think he should be credited as using it unless it is listed on the album—which I haven't gotten in the mail yet. Does anyone else know? black ngold29 14:08, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are several instances of a distinctively Bebot sound on the album - would some music samples count as a reference? --Granedit (talk)

In this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV-f4IJScPY you can see Jordan playing something that looks very much like an iPhone around 7:07. In the liner notes to the album, the band thanks Apple. Not conclusive, but more info. Danhgilmore (talk) 19:29, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He definately played it, it's been confirmed, but I don't think we can cite a comment left by him on one of his own YouTube videos. And I can't remember where else he mentioned it. black ngold29 20:17, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Chart Information

It debuted at #6 in Canada. http://jam.canoe.ca/Music/Charts/ALBUMS.html If someone could update that section with the proper format, that would be great. 142.177.154.14 (talk) 15:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Currently, BC&SL is #1 on Billboard's European Chart. Is that chart worth noting in the article? http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/charts/chart_display.jsp?g=Albums&f=European+Top+100+Albums 142.177.154.74 (talk) 05:07, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]