Talk:Bitter (beer)

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Use of hops

"Historically, the difference between ale and beer is that beer has hops added for flavour and bitterness." - does anyone have a source for this? The words 'ale' and 'beer' were both used in Anglo-Saxon, which to my understanding is several centuries before British brewers started using hops. I had heard the difference was that 'ale' is top-fermented. Harry R

Ale is top-fermented as opposed to lager which is bottom-fermented; both are beer. The quoted statement, however, conflicts with the information presented on the beer page (that beer's historical usage was for cider, or perhaps any mildly-alcoholic fermented beverage), so I've removed it. VermillionBird 18:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Session bitter

Where does the term "session bitter" come from? Is it because they were/are drunk at music "jam" sessions? Badagnani 20:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No - it means you can have a drinking session on it and not fall over - the stronger beers are too much to drink all night - I can vouch for that! Brookie :) - a will o' the wisp ! ^(Whisper...) 15:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regional differences in taste

I think the statement that people in the North of England prefer sweeter, less well hopped, beers is too much of a generalisation. Holt's in Manchester is one of the most bitter beers in Britain, and Boddington's (when it was brewed there) was also very hoppy before Whitbread got hold of it. Last time I looked, Manchester was in the North. Rodparkes 09:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Top or bottom fermented?

I suppose bottom-fermentation, but this information is really missing from the article. Maikel 23:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Notable Bitters

Is this section a joke? The 3 listed may be popular, but I don't believe they're notable! A bit like the "Restaurants" article listing McDonalds, Pizza Hut and Burger King as the only 3 "Notable Restaurants"! (Boddies was notable, until its takeover and transformation.) This section would be better called "Popular Bitters".

i beleive this section should be removed entirely as some listed are neither notable nor popular, instead it seems to be a random list of beers the author has heard of! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.138.179 (talk) 16:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think if they have their own Wikipedia argument they must, presumably, be notable, by definition. However I agree the list is incomplete and anyway the Category:Beer_and_breweries_in_England gives a pretty good list (for those that are there). The only reason I keep it would be worth keeping if is there was a one-line summary of why they are notable (e.g. Bass had the first trademark in the world, GK IPA is (i Ithink) the most popular UK bitter in terms of sales, etc). But then it becomes an ueditor's nightwhere when Trew's Old Strong and Tawny overtakes GK IPA. Agree, remove it. SimonTrew (talk) 17:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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BJCP

Without objections, I shall link this aticle to the BJCP. BJCP (talk) 22:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not objecting, but what's the BJCP? SimonTrew (talk) 22:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well I am objecting. Patto1ro (talk) 05:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was hoping for something more substantive, but if you want to take it to a vote we can go that route too. BJCP (talk) 06:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Editors, please give reasons, there is too much adding and reverting going on. 1Z (talk) 08:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mythology

There are many myths spread by beer websites that do no research. Here is an article, including scholarly references, that disproves several IPA myths:

http://zythophile.wordpress.com/false-ale-quotes/myth-4-george-hodgson-invented-ipa-to-survive-the-long-trip-to-india/ Mikebe (talk) 12:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting silly now-- not by you Mike. It seems to me, if it's a myth (and I note the page there is mainly concerned with it being a myth that George Hodgson invented it, though it does say farther down more generally that other styles of beer were surviving the journey etc) it seems best to ADD THAT to the article, not simply to remove it. And since you have the information there, seems to be you're in a good position to add it. So why not do so, then?

Most of the information from the article above is already included in the IPA article, which is where it belongs. I don't really think it belongs here. Mikebe (talk) 05:33, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

VB is not a bitter

So what? It is called a bitter, and even to say it is "not a bitter" is more notable, especially if the origin of its name is known. I can't see anything in the main VB article for why it is/was called a bitter. In my mind, saying (as the main Victoria Bitter article does) that it's a lager is more useful than ignoring its existence by omission. SimonTrew (talk) 23:05, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are a considerable number of beers with names that do not match their content. Mostly, this is done for marketing reasons (quadrupel, for example), but sometimes for other reasons as well. Personally, I don't know anything about this particular beer, so I can't argue, however, in general, it seems rather pointless to me to list beers that are not' of the type in question. Mikebe (talk) 05:29, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK I must admit I'd not checked the IPA article. I agree with you in general (no point having "list of articles that are not green" etc) but when there are common misconceptions, or that kind of thing, I do think it reasonable. Almost everyone would think IPA a bitter beer-- if for no other reason than it is very bitter. Similarly, if Victoria Bitter is called that, people are gonna wonder why. That doesn't mean we have to enumerate every beer in the universe that is not a bitter beer, but to my mind part of the value of a linked encyclopaedia is if you can't quite find what you want, at least it might lead you there: hence "see also", "other uses", etc.

How about a simple sentence/para along the lines of, "Other beers and styles such as Victoria Bitter and IPA are actually not, strictly, bitter beers." I don't think we have to say why-- people can follow the links. How's that? SimonTrew (talk) 12:22, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with a 'other uses' para for VB as you suggest . Not sure why you say IPA isn't a bitter beer though when it clearly is: 'pale ale' and 'bitter beer' have been synonyms since the nineteenth century. Haldraper (talk) 14:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Simon, you seem to be confusing bitter and a Bitter. Because a beer tastes bitter, does not mean it is a Bitter. And as I have said, brewers too often name their beers something they think will sell better rather than as a description of the beer. I don't think WP should be a 'drinks guide' (like Ratebeer or Beeradvocate). If there is a relevant link, why not? However, linking to something because it is a popular myth or misconception just reinforces the misconception. Mikebe (talk) 15:23, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am not confusing them. The VB article says its a lager, the IPA article says it's an ale (as the name would imply). Sam Adam's Boston Lager I believe has similar trouble in that it's not truly a lager, but I can't remember the details (either it's the brewing time or that it contains things other than yeast/hops/barley/malt or it is the yeast variety or something). Regardless, although we don't want endless lists of trivia, and although we want to be encylopaedic, signposting popular myths or misconceptions is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. I am at the point of giving up arguing this. SimonTrew (talk) 18:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Simon, sorry, but what does 'signposting popular myths or misconceptions' mean? And yes, many of the beer articles (especially non-American) are filled with errors because the writers only used bad sources. Mikebe (talk) 09:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hang on in there Simon :-) One of the confusing things is that IPA is not strictly speaking an ale at all, in that 'ale' was always unhopped or lightly hopped in contrast to heavily hopped beer (introduced to England by European brewers in the 15th century). 'Pale ale' is therefore a bitter beer. Why did 19th century brewers call it 'pale ale' rather than 'pale beer? I can only guess that they thought it sounded better as a rhyming phrase. Haldraper (talk) 19:50, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Lefting so we don't fall off the right of the page)

Right, so where are we? I thought that you were arguing FOR keeping IPA here (well not sure if it still is, but it was for a long time) and AGAINST keeping VB here. Personally I think a disambiguation section that says "things called bitter that are not Bitter" - I don't care what it's called - would be helpful. I know round here (Cambridgeshire) if you ask for a pint of bitter you can bet good money you will get Greene King IPA. It thus seems pointless to me, from an encyclopaedic point of view, to ignore that fact, especially when as you state it is very bitter. I'm not asking for an exhaustive list of everything in the universe that is not Bitter, or every beer that is not Bitter, but c'mon, you know if someone asks for "Ale" they are either underage or up their own backside (and that's no disrespect to CAMRA, I think originally they were gonna be the Campaign for Real Beer but changed because of the acronym). Since at the top of loads of pages there are disambiguations, indeed there is one at the top of the IPA page, I don't see the big deal here. SimonTrew (talk) 00:56, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Simon, to be clear: I do think IPA belongs on the bitter page because as I said in a previous post, 'pale ale' and 'bitter' have been synonyms for well over a century. If it's top fermented, pale and hoppy it's a pale ale/bitter whatever its called - IPA, Bitter, Pale Ale. The only distinction between 'pale ale' and 'bitter' is that the former is what it was called in the brewery and the latter by drinkers in the pub. I wasn't trying to be nerdish about 'ale', the ale/beer divide long ago become blurred, just trying to explain how the name came about. Haldraper (talk) 08:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Haldraper, to be clear: I did not mean to imply I thought you were "nerdish" about ale/bitter-- I am quite a word-fiend myself, beer or no beer!-- so if it seemed like an implied slight, I can only apologise for that and assure you it was not meant to be. Best wishes SimonTrew (talk) 22:39, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, Simon. Best wishes. Haldraper (talk) 20:43, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]