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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 81.149.153.146 (talk) at 11:05, 20 July 2009. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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What Now?

We have the Apollo missions tracked by independent parties article, now it is time to decide what to do with this article. Here are some ideas:

  1. Merge into hoax article.
  2. Merge Moon Rock section into a section named Analysis or Independent Analysis.
  3. Or that big one: AfD/Independent evidence for Apollo Moon landings
  4. Leave it as it is, possibly deleting the other article.

So now is the time to decide! Lets get this done. Branson03 16:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason to delete it. Bubba73 (talk), 17:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot the leave it the way it is. Instead of delete, it could redirct to something. Most of the stuff on this page is on the new article. Branson03 02:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's time to look at the results of the merge debate, and probably merge it. There's no need to duplicate the stuff here as it's covered in the Apollo missions tracked by independent parties article, and once you remove that there is not much left to merge into the "main" article. I concede the main article is rather long, but I've put on the talk page there a way of extracting the rather bloated trivia section into a separate article. LeeG 21:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Leave it as it is - no need to merge, and certainly not delete. If people have a problem with the newer article, that should be deleted or merged into this one. We did not go 11:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Read all of the talk page We did not go. You will find that the majority consensus agreed that Apollo missions tracked by independent parties would be created, It was supported by both sides of the revert war. If you don't want this page merged, then don't suggest merge on the other article and not this one. Branson03 12:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Leave it the way it is, perhaps deleting the new POV fork. Gravitor 14:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What POV fork? There is no POV fork. Branson03 17:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Remeber What Lunokhod said, do we need a independent evidence for everything that ever happened? Like Independent evidence for 9/11 or Independent evidence for the American Revolution. Branson03 20:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First we should decide what to do with the sections that are not in the missions tracked article, below is a list of them. Should they be merged, stay, deleted, etc. We shouold also look at the results of the merge with the hoax article, if we merge it, all we need to do is redirect to the hoax article, and we will be done. Branson03 14:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Definition of Independent evidence
  2. Significance of independent evidence
  3. Existence of Moon rocks
  4. Evidence of landing (unmanned or human)
  5. Tracking visually and by radio
  6. Future plans that may generate evidence
Well, one way to clean up the mess that was made would be to make the 'missions tracked' a sub-article, and make simply a list of the missions that were tracked independently part of this article, with a link to the independent tracking page. Gravitor 17:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we can lose the definition - as the word "evidence" is the one causing problems, and it's also the part that makes this appear as original research. We could pop a paragraph into the "main" article (I think in this section. The paragraph would state that in addition to the critiques raised, most of the missions were tracked or otherwise observed by third parties, and a link to the observations article. The moon rocks section is again becoming part of a debate (see below), but to my mind it can go into the main article - oh, wait, it's already there. All that's in the evidence of landing section is the retroreflector - in the main article already. The radio tracking bits are in the new article, just under missions rather than being in a separate section The future plan is just that, and can be dumped into the main article somewhere near the bottom. That lot does not add too much to the article, and I've set out over there how to split out the trivia section to make it a more reasonable size. In other words - all of the stuff on here is pretty much duplicated elsewhere, bar the highly controversial opening gambit, and if we really want to keep it, chuck it in the main article. LeeG 22:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. -- ArglebargleIV 18:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your links to the main article are ridiculous. This article is NOT ABOUT THE HOAX. You have presented exactly NO evidence that the people who made these observations did so because of the hoax. Oh, wait a minute - they did it 10 years before the hoax even emerged! It's pathetic to insist that this has anything to do with the hoax! Gravitor 20:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As is repeated many times, the collation in one place is in the context of the hoax. The use of the word "evidence" can only relate to the hoax. This article only exists because the hoax exists. LeeG 20:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense - you've presented no evidence for this. It's entirely reasonable to present all of this in one place. That doesn't make it part of the hoax. Gravitor 20:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it reasonable to present this in one place if there is no need to present evidence of something that is generally accepted as happening? Where else does this reasonable thing happen? It does not. Wikipedia remains the only place this stuff is collected. As Keel wrote, presentation of this stuff is only necessary due to conspiracy theories. LeeG 20:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's not what Keel wrote, as you well know. I don't know why you are so afraid of evidence in the area of NASA. Gravitor 22:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I concede it does not say that exactly. He says "In this time of rampant conspiracy theories, one point of documenting these observations is to demonstrate independent evidence, from non-governmental observers, that large objects exhibiting exactly the configuration and behavior of the Apollo spacecraft were seen en route to and from the Moon.", ergo, it is connected to the hoax. LeeG 22:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In the same way that sugar is connected to Twinkies. Sugar is used in making Twinkies, but you don't find the sugar article as a sub-section of the Twinkies article, do you? Of course not, there is a passing mention that sugar is one of the ingredients. Your current edit is correct - a small mention of the hoax near the bottom of the article is appropriate. Carfiend 00:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I missed the discussion on why the salient bullet point is at the bottom of the list, and why my "correct" edit was changed a little, so I am going to make a few changes to that section, but leave it materially the same. LeeG 21:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think the "why do it" section belongs after the "definition" or in the "definition" section. They both set the scene, and would flow better if it read that way, rather than telling someone why anyone would want this stuff at the end. LeeG 21:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moon Rocks

I removed the speculation, NASA commentary and irrelevant material from this section - the article is not called 'Nasa's account of the Apollo program'. There is no independent confirmation of the amount of 'Moon Rock' that NASA claims it has. Gravitor 17:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wahkeenah - use the talk page. Reverting without comment is not constructive. Gravitor 21:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You also removed the link to the hoax article I notice - that was not discussed here, so it's going back. This is inextricably linked to the hoax, so the link should stay. In fact that seems to be discussed above at length. LeeG 22:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
yes - and you have failed to make your point. Unless you have evidence of a time machine in use (not the most unlikely claim from the NASA camp) what you are claiming is impossible. Please discuss your changes here, rather than reverting without meaningful comment. As established, this article is tangentially at best related to the hoax. It is certainly not the main motivation for collection of evidence. You know that that is true, and yet you continually revert, without comment. It's not productive. Gravitor 22:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to get into a revert edit war with you. I have had a sit down, and a cup of tea, and will skip over the allegations of my "continual reversion" when I have done it once, and "without comment" when there is a comment above. Read above "4 users think that this topic is related in some manner to the Apollo Moon landing hoax accusations, whereas 2 do not." and below that two other editors state that it's linked to the hoax. That's six to two - I know it's not a consensus, but a distinct majority, and now we show the minority position, which is, to be honest, a bit strange to say the least. I'll not revert for fear of winding up on WP:LAME. LeeG 23:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I, also, do not want an edit war, but if four users thought the moon was made of cheese, and two did not, I would not accept the article saying the moon was cheese - the truth is not something we vote on. It is very clear that the evidence presented was not collected in response to the hoax accusations, and the sites listing it are neither hoax sites, nor predominantly hoax response sites. The original publishers of the evidence were space enthusiast journals years before the hoax even surfaced. Gravitor 17:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

However, the evidence is useful ammunition against the hoax theories that came afterward. You never address that point. The evidence and observations can and must be considered in the context of the hoax claims. -- ArglebargleIV 18:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do address that point - I am happy to have a sentence or two in the article, near the bottom, that says that this plays a small part in a minor controversy, what I am absolutely opposed to is the idea that this is the framing story of the evidence. Gravitor 19:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good news - so we can insert a section at the bottom that is called "reasons for collecting evidence" with the content "the only reason for collating all this evidence in one place (cite = Bill Keel's page, see Gravitor's helpful direction to the word "evidence" above) is in the context of a minor controversy (see Gravitor's opinion, above), that of the lunar landings being a hoax. This collection rebuts that claim." or something like that? LeeG 20:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, if I put the items back, you'll leave them? I doubt that. Your argument is irrelevant:
  • the nature of this project is that a majority see the sensible side of any debate, and under no circumstances would a majority say the moon was made of cheese. It's a pointless hypothesis.
It's not pointless - your idea that a majority of people voting on a page makes it true regardless of the facts is ludicrous. Tell that to the folks at the evolution page. Gravitor 19:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • the second part of the statement cuts to the heart of the problem - this "evidence" has been collected nowhere in the whole wide world but on this page. It is therefore original research, and the reason for it being collected on one page is directly connected to the hoax as it was written as a direct spin off from the hoax.
    I restate, merge this article with the hoax page, delete the controversial opening statement, and be done with it. LeeG 17:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense. This is not about the hoax. The evidence appears elsewhere, and is well documented. There is no original research. Gravitor 19:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please give me a link, an ISBN, a journal, that collects more than one of these sources, ideally using the phrases "independent evidence" and "moon landings". There is no such thing. This article is original research, as it only appears in one place - Wikipedia. If I missed the link, indulge me and reproduce it below. Thanks in advance. LeeG 19:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you had read the article, you would know that there are links in it to just such a site. Gravitor 19:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please, help me out, I cannot see it. I have read this article many, many times, and I cannot see it. Just do a quick copy and paste here. I am not asking much, maybe 20 seconds of your time. LeeG 20:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/space/apollo.html
So we are ignoring this part of that page "In this time of rampant conspiracy theories, one point of documenting these observations is to demonstrate independent evidence, from non-governmental observers, that large objects exhibiting exactly the configuration and behavior of the Apollo spacecraft were seen en route to and from the Moon." to say this has nothing to do with the hoax accusations? LeeG 22:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No. If you read my posts above, you will see that I do not oppose a sentence saying that one reason for keeping these kinds of pages is the hoax. It is NOT the only, or the main reason, and was not one of the reasons for collecting them in the first place. It is a minor reason, that emerged late in the history of the evidence collection, and should not have a prominent place in the article. Please read posts before replying to them. Gravitor 22:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One is going in then, as you have no objections. LeeG 22:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please try not to get this page protected again. Branson03 16:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More than a fair point. I am hoping that by containing ourselves to the talk page we can avoid that. LeeG 18:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well done Lee - that looks like a good start. Carfiend 00:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Independent evidence for NASA'a claim of quantity of Moon rocks

Has anyone independent ever seen / weighed / confirmed the quantity of rocks NASA claims? Gravitor 22:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not that I have seen. It's just a claim at this point. Carfiend 00:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Science Apologist - can you explain why you think this is not relevant? Carfiend 00:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removing references to hoax believers

Per WP:WEIGHT the extreme minority of the hoax believers should not be pandered to. This is an article that is meant to present the independent evidence for the landings, not the attempted counterarguments by simpletons who believe in conspiracy theories. --ScienceApologist 00:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not about the hoax. It's about independent evidence for the landings. I can't help it if you are offended that there is no independent evidence for NASA's claim to have Moon rocks. You can't blame that on a conspiracy. Carfiend 00:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Lets assume that the moon hoax idea never came up. The you wouldn't need evidence for the moon landings, because everyone knows that it happened. This title is the problem with the article, not the article itself. Thats why I suggested moving it to Apollo missions tracked by independent parties, a title that better fits the article, and a non-hoax article, just as Gravitor and Carfiend wanted. Branson03 00:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That isn't true. Keel's site is not primarily an anti hoax site, neither are the journals he cites. Even if it were true, it would be irrelevant, since much knowledge is not 'needed' strictly speaking. The problem with the 'tracked' article is that it does not cover other evidence. Gravitor 01:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The move is appropriate. I have been bold and done it. --ScienceApologist 01:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The move is inappropriate. I have been bold and undone it. Gravitor 01:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We should look at some possibilities for a new title that fits everything, and does not label it as evidence, but information. One of the two articles can be moved to the new title, and the other redirected to the new title. Branson03 01:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am open to exploring that, but we should reach consensus through discussion, not by provoking revert-wars by wading into a topic that is contentious. Gravitor 01:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I see it, "evidence" is inappropriate but talking about independent tracking is fine. Branson03 is correct in stating that these articles need to be written from the perspective that the Moon Landings did occur per WP:WEIGHT. We cannot pander to the hoax woo-woos. --ScienceApologist 12:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is, as you can plainly see, there is more evidence than simply tracking. Also, please try to elevate your contributions above name-calling. Gravitor 15:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain yourself ScienceApologist

If you tag something as disputed, please have the courtesy to explain why on the talk page, that way we have a chance to reach consensus. Gravitor 01:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I dispute that commentary on psuedoskepticism regarding the origin of moon rocks belongs on this page. It is factually incorrect according to the title and POV. --ScienceApologist 12:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree - it is the independent evidence, or lack of, that belongs on this page. No commentary is required. The title is fine, and the facts are not a point of view. Gravitor 14:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More merge stuff

We may have missed this (see above) in amongst all the talk here, it's tricky to spot, so I am putting it down here too where it may actually get read:

As an uninvolved reader, I think the merge should go ahead anyway. The Hoax Accusations article is older, and this article makes sense only in its context. Generally when there is a debate, it helps to present both sides of the debate together. Note that I am a college science major, and I believe that accusations of hoax moon landings are nonsense. I just want to structure the articles in the best way possible. YechielMan 18:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The more people that read this mess, the more that agree it is only makes sense in the context of the hoax allegations. LeeG 21:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We already have Apollo missions tracked by independent parties. I would say anything that is already in that article that is also in this article could be stricken from this article. If there is anything still left in this article of a factual nature, it could be added to "Apollo missions tracked by independent parties". Anything that's left after that should be small enough to make for a quick introductory paragraph within the hoax article along with the link to "Apollo missions tracked by independent parties". Wahkeenah 01:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is the most sensible solution. It would also help out with the issue raised on grammar by the editor below. It would be good if we could return to (I think) Arglebargle's suggestion that the other article covered general tracking of space missions by earthbound folks. It may be interesting to a wider audience, realising they can see the ISS, for example, if they know where to look. LeeG 10:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar and sentence flow need work

You should be aware that there are multiple grammatical errors in the article, resulting in some nonsensical statements. Because improving the grammar could potentially alter the intended meaning of some of the sentences, and also because of the history of edit warring here, I am not willing to clean this up myself; however, if there is an editor working on this article who has good writing skills, this would be a good time to break them out. Risker 03:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Move request

I wholeheartedly oppose this. This is a page documenting independent evidence, something that space journals, webpages and historical sites all do. It is NOT a hoax page. There is no mention (except for one small note at the bottom of the page) of the hoax. The evidence was collected a decade before the hoax even appeared. The user who requested this is on a campaign to try to make this look like a hoax page when it is not. It cites space enthusiasts and journals, not hoax advocates. Please leave this page to be what it is intended, a catalog of independent accounts of the Moon landings. 'Independent tracking' is not a suitable title, because it excludes evidence such as Moon Rocks. Gravitor 01:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments copied from (deleted) Talk:Independent evidence for the Apollo Moon landings by Stemonitis 13:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The information should be merged with both the moon landings article and the moon landing hoax page. Right now this page basically constitutes a POV fork. WesleyDodds 01:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am removing the listing related to this from the Wikipedia:Requested moves page, because that page does not deal with merge discussions. The merge discussion itself can continue, of course. Dekimasuよ! 06:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If this should be moved anywhere it's to the Moon Landing page itself as it corroborates the official line that the moon landings happened. A page discussing the potential moon conspiracy should do just that. One page for the official view and substantiating evidence. One page for the conspiracy view and substantiating evidence. My 2c. VonBlade 14:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think that would be a POV fork, which is against policy. Bubba73 (talk), 15:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fork or not, the moon landing conspiracy/hoax is one of the most famous conspiracy theories out there, right behind Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories. I think it deserves its own page. So, my vote is against merging. Shostie 00:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not neutral? Not accurate? Apparently the hoax article isn't disputed...

What's with the not-neutral/accurate tags? The hoax article doesn't have any of these tags on, but then again, as one editor pointed out, the hoax theorists are a small group with a big voice.

I understand that since this is independent evidence, it may be disputed as it is not official, but shouldn't the same tags at least be applied to the hoax accusations page?

The Soviet Union were said to have tracked NASA to the moon, the equipment is proven to be there to this day, etc. etc. And as the Flat Earth Society "rightly" point out, they can't have been real because the Earth shown was a sphere. (So no ones ever been into space??)

That's just my opinion, and I've got nothing against the editors of either articles, I just think it should be fair: if we're to say that this article is disputed, I'm pretty sure most people will agree that the hoax accusations are disputed. --J. Atkins (talk | contribs) 11:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are suggesting that the tag should be removed here. I agree. Bubba73 (talk), 13:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to remove the tag. I don't see what is not neutral. The tag says to see the talk page, but I don't see anything about it here. Bubba73 (talk), 13:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does this count as indpeendent evidence?

The third bulleted paragraph at Examination of Apollo moon photos#There are no stars in any of the photos (the one starting with "payload restrictions") talks about how UV photographs taken with a UV camera showing the Earth with stars in the background agrees with data obtained later with a European satellite. Does this count as independent evidence? Bubba73 (talk), 21:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge tag

I have altered the merge tag. As this article is of a decent size, and can stand alone, it is appropriate that it should stand alone from the Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations article, however, as Apollo missions tracked by independent parties covers much of the same material and is directly related, that seems the more appropriate merge. SilkTork 13:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Bubba73 (talk), 15:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If this article is merged with the other, which one will be the title - Independent evidence for Apollo Moon Landings or Apollo missions tracked by independent parties? Branson03 18:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The former, because it would encompass the latter. Bubba73 (talk), 21:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The former is Independent evidence for Apollo Moon Landings, right? Just want to make sure. Branson03 16:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it isn't really clear - independent of what? NASA? The U.S. government? The U.S.?

Merged. Editing still to be done. SilkTork 17:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Apollo missions tracked by independent parties

Brought over. SilkTork 17:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

POV fork

This page is a POV fork of Independent evidence for Apollo Moon landings. It has been started in an attempt to delete content from that page, following a content dispute that remains unresolved. That page is still protected, and the creation of this page is yet another attempt to avoid consensus building and find an administrative alternative to collaborative editing. Gravitor 08:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain why you think that this article is a POV fork? In particular, could you explain what POV it is catering to, and that POV that it is ignoring? Also, could you please discuss changes on the talk page? I reverted your deletion and redirect. Lunokhod 10:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Gravitor, There is no consensus on your article. It only looks like it because it hasn't been edited for awhile. This article is moving towards consensus, because everyone (except you and Carfiend) thinks this was a good idea. Branson03 15:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is pretty funny given that the previous article was Gravitor's content fork from the hoax article. Wahkeenah 19:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see any POV in this article. It is a simple statement of facts. Bubba73 (talk), 21:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is an attempt to make an end run around the article that is currently locked - to avoid having to use Wikipedia process and reach consensus. Gravitor 00:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can you provide some specific verifiable, reliable sources that have evidence that these observations did not take place? Bubba73 (talk), 00:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Which observations? Gravitor 22:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Message for Gravitor

Gravitor: I apologize in advance, but I am no longer going to respond to you until you start responding to the questions asked of you on the talk pages. If you read through these, you will see that most of us have responded to every concern you have brought up (even though you might have disagreed). You, on the other hand, consistently evade our questions. As one example: Why don't you answer my question above as to why you think that this article is a POV fork, and describe that POV that the article is catering to? I am glad to see that your level of disruptive behavior has diminished somewhat since the filing of the RfC on your behavior, but as a professional editor in real life, I still find your behavior unacceptable. So, once again, I apologize for ignoring you in the future; you are just a colossal waste of my time. Lunokhod 09:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I accept your apology. Gravitor 22:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with evidence article

This should be merged into the original article - as above - this is a POV fork. We did not go 11:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose the user who put the merge tag on has only 4 edits on wikipedia. Most likely he/she hasn't read the entire talk page on the evidence article. As we all know this page was agreed by most that it should be created, and the rest of the stuff we are dealing with now. Gravitor said that it has nothing to do with the hoax. But it does! Who needs evidence if they already believe that the moon landings happened. This article puts the old one into a new POV, one that more people will want to read. 6% of Americans don't believe the moon landings happened. so 94% of Americans would not want to look at an article with evidence of the moon landings. This one has to do with tracking and observations of apollo missions. The other one's title doesn't fit most of the sections. Evidence of Moon Landings has nothing to do with the missions, which is one of the sections. And last, on the Independent Evidence article, We did not go said: "Leave it as it is - no need to merge, and certainly not delete." Then he puts the merge tag on one of the articles and not the other. Branson03 12:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We did not go is just saying it is a POV Fork, because Gravitor said it was. POV Forks is when the NPOV rule is broken. The article is in a NPOV. For We did not go, a non-NPOV would be if the hoax article said that it is fact, not a theory, because it has never (*and never will be*) proven. (The *s represent a non-NPOV statement). Branson03 22:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't even think that We did not go is coming back. Branson03 14:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please, explain why this is a POV fork, I have read the WP:POV_fork page, and I do not understand how this is such. Feel free to assume I know nothing about WP policies, and start from first principles. LeeG 21:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, please explain. This is not written in a POV, it is just a statement of facts. If this article is a POV fork, Then the page User:Branson03 is a POV fork. Branson03 18:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see that Gravitor has posted here, and on several other pages, but has not answered a very simple question. As a result I conclude the stance cannot be justified, therefore I'll remove the merge tag from this page sometime tonight (again giving more than adequate time for a response). LeeG 17:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Result of this debate was keep (oppose), because it is not a POV Fork after reviewing WP:POV_fork. How is it a POV Fork, I will answer that for everyone: It's not! Branson03 00:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On what basis did you announce the result? Who decided how long the poll was to last, or what margin the vote needed to be? Oh, you, because you can make whatever rules fit your POV, I forgot! It looks like a tie to me at this point. Gravitor 01:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was speaking because the tag was removed as on the talk page. Branson03 01:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jodrell Bank

I saw a show on TV that showed tracking of Apollo by Jodrell Bank. In the dopler, you could definitely see that they had landed on the moon. This website discusses Jodrell's tracking of unmanned missions. Is there a source of their tracking of manned lunar missions? Bubba73 (talk), 19:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another mention of it. Bubba73 (talk), 19:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Add this

Link to the Elaine Halbedel photos: [1]. Cesarakg 03:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge edit

I think I have merged the material so there is no duplication of material, and no evidence has been lost. Though I would welcome someone casting their eye over the whole thing. SilkTork 17:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Future plans that may generate evidence

I've removed most of this section again. It's simply original research and the cites say nothing about the speculation it contains.

This NASA link is about sightings of Mars landing sites. It says nothing about the moon, nor does it speculate anything about seeing the Apollo landing sites. And this page has nothing to say about photographing Apollo landing sites, as the cite claims it does. I've left the last cite in, as it least it says what the article claims it says, however, it remains speculations, --Escape Orbit (Talk) 14:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is not enough to say; "it's been done on Mars, so therefore could be done on the Moon", as this; "The Descent Module of the Apollo landers, lunar rovers, ALSEP and perhaps the flags could be seen from orbit. The much smaller Mars landers have been photographed from Mars Orbit." effectively states. Says who? It is speculation by a Wikipedia editor. Perhaps good speculation, but speculation all the same. The cite provided merely shows it happening on Mars, it says nothing about the moon. So what we have here is original research, or at the very least original synthesis. Either way; not acceptable. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

retroreflectors

Quoting from edit summary: "But they do not prove that the part that went to the moon was manned. One variety of the Apollo hoax theory holds that the lunar part was unmanned, even if the stack was launched with people.)" OK, at least that is conceivable, that the CM was manned but the LM was not. So I'll let it stand. An earlier edit summary mentioned "limits of evidence", but there is no evidence that an unmanned LM landed and deployed retroflectors. Bubba73 (talk), 04:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By far the most sensible interpretation of the evidence is that the Soviet retro-reflectors were placed by un-manned probes, and the US ones by the manned Apollo missions, just as each country claims. But it's particularly important to be rigorous here, I think, since one of the main criticisms of the hoax theories is that their interpretations of the evidence overstate their case. LouScheffer (talk) 11:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for a new section called "Criticism" or something like that

Whatever the hoax proponents : opponents ratio (1:10 or 1:4) and whatever the ratio between the correspondent sources, I think that the point of view of the hoax proponents deserves a little coverage in this article too, as per WP:Weight. It's currently exactly zero. I can try to add such a relatively short section in which their [source-backed] criticism to the provided evidence is presented. Do you mind? I'm asking in advance because I wouldn't like to do work which will be subsequently annulled (once bitten, twice shy). --Лъчезар (talk) 18:58, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm against it. The claims of the hoax proponents are well-covered in Apollo Moon Landing hoax conspiracy theories. This article was spun off that article because hoax proponents claimed that there was no evidence of a manned Moon landing other than that provided by NASA. Bubba73 (talk), 19:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The same way as the main article refutes the claims of the hoax proponents, they refute most of the evidences provided in this "spin-off" article. I think that that should be shortly covered somewhere too, probably here as the evidences are presented here. --Лъчезар (talk) 19:15, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anything from reliable sources that disputes this evidence? Wikipedia:Fringe theories also applies, and so does wp:undue. Bubba73 (talk), 19:18, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It depends on whether you'll recognise a 2009 book written by a doctor of physical-mathematical sciences a reliable source... --Лъчезар (talk) 05:50, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Such a person may be outside his area of expertise in this. Just because a person is an expert in one area doesn't mean he is an expert in another. Bubba73 (talk), 14:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rocket science is just one of the special physical-mathematical sciences. But he especially claims that all arguments that require more than high school knowledge of physics to be understood have been omitted from his book. --Лъчезар (talk) 18:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is more to it than rocket science. There is the age of the rocks, the retroreflectors, the observations, the SELENE photograph, etc. Anyone can "deny" the evidence because it contradicts what they want to believe. What matters is looking at the evidence objectively. Bubba73 (talk), 18:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Popov was helped by over 40 other people, most of which professors, doctors of sciences, cosmonauts, rocket experts and even the chief designer of a space station - see this. --Лъчезар (talk) 09:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can't read Russian, but it is interesting that the book is at FictionBook.lib. Bubba73 (talk), 13:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is just one of the many places where it can be found.

Part of the reason there are two articles, one covering independent evidence, the other covering conspiracy theories, is that it proved very difficult to neutrally cover both subjects on the one article, as they effectively contradict one another. What's clear about the conspiracy theories in general is that no matter what detail either side of the argument goes into, the other side always has an answer to dispute it. It's a never ending spiral. The end result was a very messy article that didn't do either side, or indeed Wikipedia, justice.

Adding a 'Criticism' section to this article would effectively get us right back where we started, with different editors chipping in with small contributions that dispute the line before it. No-one wants to read that kind of mess. Far better for the two to remain separate. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 12:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, then what about creating a new article devoted to this? --Лъчезар (talk) 12:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The arguements of conspiracy theorists are already covered in Apollo Moon Landing hoax conspiracy theories. Bubba73 (talk), 13:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Except for the denials of the evidence. Perhaps I can add a separate section about this there? Or better create a new article called "Alexander Ivanovich Popov"? --Лъчезар (talk) 16:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know of any critical examination of the evidence from a reliable source. Just denying evidence because you don't want to believe it is not good. Bubba73 (talk), 20:02, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And if Popov believes that the Saturn V was really a Saturn IB, it has no bearing on any of this evidence. Bubba73 (talk), 23:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Popov's book is big - some pages aim to refute the evidence, some are devoted to Saturn V, etc. But I understand that for you to recognise a source as reliable, it must be on your side (i.e. anti-hoax). Our argument is like a dispute between deaf and I stop it. --Лъчезар (talk) 08:08, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I recall, this article was actually started by someone who believed the moon landings to be a hoax. I think his premise was that there was no independent evidence, and he started this article and dared anyone to come up with independent evidence. Lo and behold, there was indeed independent evidence. He may have actually discovered some of the independent evidence himself. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 09:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations, this means that there have been at least two persons who converted from pro-hoax to anti-hoax. Good job! --Лъчезар (talk) 10:37, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
He never converted. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:52, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, one converted (not me - as far as I can tell he's the most active editor of these pages!) is enough too. --Лъчезар (talk) 13:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't follow. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 16:07, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hint: see who voted for deletion of this article a couple of years ago :) --Лъчезар (talk) 18:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Either spell it out or keep quiet about it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you give up? He is User:Bubba73, as you can see here. --Лъчезар (talk) 18:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article started out as a content fork, initiated by a hoaxster for the purpose of making a "point", namely that there was "no independent evidence". His strategy backfired, because there's plenty of independent evidence, thus destroying one of the pillars of hoaxsters thesis. So once that fact was established, I think Bubba73 backed off from arguing against the article, as the main article was already fairly large. I'm sure he can elaborate on this better than I can. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the information. So, no one "converted". Not surprising. This is what can be expected for the near future too, for both directions of the possible "conversion". Everyone will keep believing in what they already believe. --Лъчезар (talk) 18:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We see this same debate every few months. The facts support the historical record. The alleged "clues" supporting a conspiracy do not stand up to scrutiny. The fact that people believe in a hoax says a lot about those people. Certain people like to believe in conspiracy theories, for various reasons. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:20, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's stop this discussion. It's fruitless and long since deviated from the initial topic about this Wikipedia article. --Лъчезар (talk) 09:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Selene photo is neither a photo nor an evidence

The Selene (Kaguya) photo is not a real photo but computer-reconstructed image from many photos taken from the Japanese. And it's not an evidence because the Moon landscape image may have been taken not by Apollo astronauts but by an unmanned module such as a Surveyor. The presence of a "moon-walker" on it is not a proof because the foreground may have been in a studio with this image as the background. I've seen such very convincing picture in the Pleven Panorama. The foreground is real but the background is painted. Even though it's only about 10 metres away from the visitor, it's very convincing. So the entire battlefield (both foreground and background) seems real. --Лъчезар (talk) 08:24, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the Kaguya FAQ says:

KAGUYA (SELENE) observes the entire lunar surface using mission instruments such as Terrain camera, multiband imager, etc. This means that KAGUYA provides images where Apollo were landed with 10 meter resolution of Terrain Camera. Since Apollo lander and rover were too small to detect with 10 meter resolution, it is difficult for us to provide discernable images of the landing sites of the Apollo.

--

As the article says, it is a reconstruction from SELENE photographs of the actual lunar landscape. There is no way that the Apollo photograph could have faked that. Bubba73 (talk), 15:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you didn't understand. The landscape may be real but the presence of the lunar rover could be as in the Pleven Panorama. --Лъчезар (talk) 18:36, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand what that has to do with it at all. The Apollo photo was taken on film and brought back to Earth. The SELENE spacecraft is not on the surface of the Moon - it orbited above. Its photos had a resolution of 10 meters, so the artifacts on the Moon are too small for it to see them. The SELENE photographs were in 3-D and stored in a computer. A computer was used to reconstruct what the landscape would look like from the surface. It matches the terrain of the Apollo photograph, and it is independent evidence. Bubba73 (talk), 19:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to explain. I don't claim that Selene should show any artificial objects on the Moon should they be there, so it's natural that there's nothing like this on its photo. Instead, I claim that the landscape of the Apollo photo may have been taken by an unmanned spacecraft instead, and used as the background in a studio to make the photo on the left. Therefore, the Selene photo proves the landscape but doesn't prove the presence of the lunar rover. --Лъчезар (talk) 13:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
None of this matters, since everything talked about here is Original research. Wikipedia is not a forum, so let's try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. If you can find a source to support making a change, that would certainly be worth discussing.
— Ω (talk) 13:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, you're right. --Лъчезар (talk) 18:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is no evidence that the photo was taken by an unmanned spacecraft. If you say that, it is your wp:OR and POV. (Also notice the footprints in the photo.) Bubba73 (talk), 16:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The footprints in the foreground also can be made on earth. OK, I'll shut up finally. As long as the official sources support your side, I can't do anothing more. --Лъчезар (talk) 18:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LRO

This is not "independent" evidence, but it's evidence that the ball game is over for the conspiracy theorists: [2] Now they can go back to trying to figure what really happened to Che Guevara. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was just going to note that but you overtook me! Yes, you're right that it's not an independent evidence, but if you agree, I can rename the article to just "Evidence for Apollo Moon landings", removing the word "independent", and everything will be OK. If you don't afree, I'll have to delete the section as irrelevant to the article's title. As to the "ball game", don't play wishful thinking, it's not over - as Popov notes, any photo made since the mid-1990s can't be an evidence because anyone can now put even a pink elephant there! Last not least - please leave Cuba alone. --Лъчезар (talk) 07:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with the conspiracist thesis is that it typically "uses the theorem to prove the theorem". Their basic premise is that everything NASA says is a lie. However, there is not yet any valid source that can prove that NASA lied about the Apollo program. So it's an "if-then" situation in which the "if" portion is assumed to be true - without any evidence backing it. Certainly, any photograph anywhere can be manipulated - just as the hoaxsters often manipulated the evidence to try to make their points. But there are many eyes watching this program. The relative lack of coverage by the mainstream media shows how little importance there really was to "proving" the Apollo flights occurred. There was never actually any doubt, except in the minds of a few, for somewhat understandable reasons. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 21:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
uses the theorem to prove the theorem - yes, exactly. In order to "prove" or at least have "evidence" of a conspiracy/hoax, they have to assume that there was a conspiracy/hoax. Bubba73 (talk), 21:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is the chicken and egg problem, in our case "who holds the burden of proof"? The problem with the hoax debunkers is that they believe what their authorities say. Whoever lied for the 11 September events may have lied for the Apollo, USS Maine, etc., etc. --Лъчезар (talk) 10:28, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The accusers hold the burden of proof, and they have failed to prove anything except their ignorance of science and technology - and even of 9th grade level physics, for that matter. Start with the "waving flag" nonsense, and go downhill from there. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 13:01, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If the burden of proof is not at NASA, why a special page devoted to that proof (evidence) exists? --Лъчезар (talk) 10:06, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
LRO is not *absolutely* independent, but it is largely so. Although the probe was launched by NASA, the team that built the camera and interprets the images is not. From the web site, "The LROC Team consists of scientists, staff, student researchers and an Instrument Development Team that come from various disciplines: Planetary Geology, Geography, Engineering, Information Technology, Aerospace Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, and Business. Scientists working on the LROC team are faculty and researchers from various academic institutions, government and the private sector: Brown University, Cornell University, Washington University in St. Louis, John Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, University of Arizona, DePaul University, Adler Planetarium Museum, Malin Space Science Systems, United States Geological Survey, Ohio State University, SETI Institute, the Smithsonian Institution's National Air and Space Museum, University of Münster, DLR Berlin, and the University of Hawai`i at Manoa." LouScheffer (talk) 20:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All these are U.S. institutions. Somewhat independent of NASA maybe, but not independent of the U.S.! --Лъчезар (talk) 10:28, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Two of these, the University of Münster, and DLR Berlin, are not U.S. institutions -they are both in Germany. LouScheffer (talk) 19:33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't mean that these two German institutions have control on how the LRO is used. This control is still in the hands of NASA. --Лъчезар (talk) 09:19, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Prove it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 09:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's obvious. The LRO is controlled from Houston. And most importantly, the images are published by NASA, not the Germans. --Лъчезар (talk) 10:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The question will arise as to what to do with these articles. Not all the conspiracists are going to go away, although they will be hard pressed to demonstrate that the current program is a ruse. Instead of "Independent Evidence", which has a POV-ish edge to it, perhaps "Independent Observations" would be better. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 21:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where are the Lunar Rovers? There is no mention of them in the LROC News site. Dr.K. logos 21:50, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Probably too small to be visible in the initial photos. There's also the question of what was done with them. I'm assuming they were parked near the LM's, as opposed to being re-packed, which would be seem to be a pointless thing to do, unless there was a reason to that I'm unaware of. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 22:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks Bugs. I agree with you that they should have been parked near the LMs. I also thought about the repacking and I agree that it would be pointless to stow them inside the descent stage again. I guess that at this orbit height the LRO doesn't have the resolution to capture the LRV. Dr.K. logos 22:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • As I understand, these are relatively low-res photos from an initial sweep, and they expect to get better photos later in the mission. Lunar orbiters never seem to get much attention. There was a lunar orbiter in the 1960s that mapped the entire surface of the moon, a great achievement in itself, and an essential prequisite to finding suitable landing areas for the Apollo craft. Cameras were not so high-res then, and even with the effort they made to find rubble-free areas, Armstrong, for example, had to do some last-minute maneuvering to keep from crashing into objects that weren't apparent from the orbiter photos. He focused totally on the landing and pretty much kept his mouth shut until he knew he was going to land safely ("Kicking up some dust"), and once on the ground he announced, "Tranquility Base here; the Eagle has landed", prompting Mission Control to comment about "a bunch of guys about to turn blue here" from holding their breath while Armstrong lowered the craft in nearly radio-silence. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 22:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Thanks. From what I read about the LRO, I think it has the resolution, even at this orbit, to discern the LRV(s) but they may not have been observed yet, I would guess, because they don't cast as long a shadow as the LM, due to them being substantially lower. Also the rover reflectivity may not be as high as that of the other components, in effect making the rover pixels hard to detect. Dr.K. logos 22:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The rovers were left near the LMs (A15, 16, 17). Someone pointed out some rover tracks on one of them. The rovers are pretty low - the LM descent stage is about 10 feet tall.
I don't think good photos was the problem for Armstrong. Early in the A11 descent, they knew that they were "long" - i.e. going to overshoot the planed landing site. Bubba73 (talk), 23:59, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Bubba73. Your comments confirm my thoughts about the detectability of the LRVs in the current pictures. Dr.K. logos 00:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bubba73 is your go-to guy on all things Apollo. :) I wonder, assuming the orbiter is going to re-map the entire lunar surface, whether we will see the Moon on Google Maps at some point - complete, maybe, with "street views"? Although the roads there are largely unpaved. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 00:40, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Google moon maps? This idea is out of this world. ;) Dr.K. logos 00:56, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The rovers are 3 meters long and (I think) a little less than 2 meters wide. That would be as few as 2 pixels at this resolution. Bubba73 (talk), 00:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Once the higher-res photos come in, it's possible the rovers will be spotted, and then on the lower-res photos, their presence will be detectable. It's hard to tell much initially, from 2 pixels. The most telling sign of the LM towers is the shadows. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 01:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) @Bubba73: That was my estimation also based on the fact that the descent stage of the LM, which can be considered a square of side 3.7 m, occupies three to four pixels, as the citation mentions. Dr.K. logos 01:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are two bright spots near Apollo 15, but I can't tell what they are. One is to the right, about 3:00 o'clock, the other is about 7:00 o'clock. Bubba73 (talk), 03:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the bright spot at three o' clock. But I can't see the one at 7. Except if it is the one adjacent to a small crater, in which case it may just be part of the crater image. Dr.K. logos 17:08, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is right between two craters, and is closer to the LM than the one on the right. Bubba73 (talk), 17:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, it is the same as the one I originally thought. This spot is too close to the craters to be considered independent. There are other craters in the pictures with similar bright spots at their perimeter. Dr.K. logos 17:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

←As mentioned, these are the first preliminary photos, and LRO hasn't even reached its intended lunar orbit yet. The intended orbit will yield pictures with a resolution two to three times better than the ones we currently see (if the press releases from NASA are correct). I expect we will clearly be able to see the rovers as well as the tracks then. -MBK004 03:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • What has all this discussion above to do with the Wikipedia article?!
  • The LRO is an U.S. only enterprise, and is not an independent source. But if I delete all text about it from the page, an "edit war" will start immediately. So, let the readers determine whether they're independent or not. I'm sure that any reasonable reader will find their "independence" claim laughable. Reader's intelligence must not be underestimated. --Лъчезар (talk) 10:28, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Other NASA-based sources of evidence or material are also cited in this article. However, we should also get fully "independent" (by those criteria) imagery from other nation's spacecraft in the next few years. Possibly then though the hoax theory supporters will claim that countries like China are also part of the conspiracy? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 10:38, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree on everything you wrote but the last sentence of yours. If a Chinese spacecraft proves the Apollo landings, most of the "hoaxters" will shut up, including myself :) --Лъчезар (talk) 10:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have there been any statements from the Russians, Chinese, etc., about this event? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:22, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to rename the article to "Evidence for Apollo Moon landings"

Independent evidence for Apollo Moon landings → Evidence for Apollo Moon landings — The page contains non-independent evidence. Since this material is interesting and to delete it would be a clear loss, I propose to bring the article's title in concordance with its content instead. Thus my proposal to remove the word "independent" from the title. Лъчезар (talk) 13:38, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then you might as well roll the whole thing into the hoax article, as this article was originally a content fork of that article, created by a hoaxster who thought there was no independent evidence. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:14, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Another alternative would be the more neutral title "Observations of..." Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about Evidential Analysis of the Apollo Moon Landings Hoax Conspiracy Theory? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 14:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's only 10 words. We need more. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 14:42, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Baseball_Bugs, you are right. OK. How about Evidential Analysis of Just Why Exactly the Apollo Moon Landings Hoax Conspiracy Theory is Complete and Utter Tosh? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 15:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That might be considered pushing the POV a tad. Regarding the title "Evidence for Apollo Moon landings", the flaw with that is that the entire history of the space program is evidence for the moon landings. This article was begun by a hoaxster who's been gone for over 2 years, so maybe it's time to fold this info back in to the other articles. I'd like to hear Bubba73's opinion on that first, as he was among the first to complain about it being a POV content fork. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 15:23, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have to think about it more, but at present I am not in favor of the name change. That would allow in all evidence of the Moon landing, which is literally overwhelming. There were over 5,000 still photos taken on the surface of the Moon, many hours of video from the moonwalks, a good amount of 16-mm movie film, and that is just the photography. The original intent of this article was to give evidence that did not come directly from NASA. Bubba73 (talk), 16:09, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then the LRO stuff probably should stay with just the main hoax article, in order to keep this one "pure". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously for a moment, I would have thought a lot of the material here like rocks, reflectors, etc are from NASA sources, at least originally. The issue here is about what constitutes "independent" - a reasonable and objective view is to take verifiable Nasa science, like that of the moon rocks, as valid and "independent". We have to do that, and not take into account the more extreme hoax believers viewpoint, because no matter what other "independent" material is proffered, it will never satisfy such extreme believers as valid. In the related article, we are discussing what they would say if China sends a mission, lands next to Apollo 17 and brings back Harrison Schmitt's hammer. They would likely say "the Chinese are in on the conspiracy" for some arcane reason. Nothing will satisfy and so we have to go back to reasonable views of what constitutes independent evidence. The LRO is good enough for the world's media today and it should be good enough for us. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 18:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article was started by a hoaxster who claimed there was no source for the facts of the moon landings except NASA itself. So the idea of the article was to present evidence from non-NASA sources. If the article has strayed from that, then maybe it needs to be reigned in and/or distributed. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 18:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The rocks have been studied by independent scientists and verified that they are from the Moon. Independent scientists are using the retroreflectors, etc. Bubba73 (talk), 18:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, which is exactly analagous to LRO, where an independent academic team are studying material provided by Nasa. I think the case is clear-cut to leave this article alone, it is a valuable reflection on the weight of evidence and it is (largely) of an independent nature. The new LRO evidence does not change that and indeed strengthens it. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 19:17, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that independence comes in various degrees, from photos provided by NASA itself (not independent at all), to as independent as practical (a probe designed, built, and operated by a country opposed to the United States). Even this is not completely independent, as some conspiracy types have argued (with a straight face) that Russia knew the moon landings were a hoax, but did not expose the USA since the USA had equally good evidence the Russian feats were hoaxes too. So I think the right title would be "Evidence at least partially independent of NASA for the manned moon landings", but that's a lot to type (or say). LouScheffer (talk) 19:40, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not add disclaimers on the matter to the article while it is still being discussed on this page. Apart from anything else, opinions of the neutrality or otherwise of other organisations is just that; uncited opinions. It cannot be added without cites discussing this in relation to the article subject.
If we are to question other academic organisation's and other country's space programmes "independence", because they might possibly be co-operating or receiving funding from the US Government, then we may as well give up now. Nothing is truly independent in the science and space industries, the possible influence of the US Government is everywhere. Discounting, or adding disclaimers to, this evidence is pointless. The possibility of co-conspiracy is everywhere if you wish to believe it, and Wikipedia is not immune from suspicion. So I say we continue to consider that evidence outside the immediate confines of NASA and the US Government as independent, and let the doubters reach their own conclusions about the possibility of the conspiracy being even wider than previously believed. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:32, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are in agreement here. While there can surely be dependent evidence, evidence you can show to be completely independent is hard to find (since most institutions/scientists share funding, government support, some facilities, etc.). However, I believe we should explicitly call this out in the article - especially when arguing against hoax/conspiracy theories, it is particularly important to be completely above board about your evidence. It's much better to state the limits of independence up front, rather than to present them as independent and then have the opposing side point out that the person involved obtained their funding from a non-neutral source. This is exactly what gets the drug companies in trouble all the time - they present evidence as independent, then it turns out the investigator salary/grant was paid for by the side who's view they espoused. LouScheffer (talk) 00:34, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that we can insert an uncited desclaimer about the evidence. If we can find a reliable source stating that the evidence presented by academia may be tainted due to funding from external sources such as government or corporations, then maybe we can include it, even though doing so could be considered as WP:SYNTH. But just declaring so because we happen to believe it, is WP:OR. Dr.K. logos 00:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are many, many reliable sources documenting common sources of funding, inter-agency agreements, use of common facilities, and so on. There are also many statements that studies are questionable when funding comes from an interested party. These are also very easy to document - see conflict of interest statements at many professional societies. So you could have something like "Independence may be sacrificed when funding comes from a non-neutral source (ref, ref, ref.) In many of the cases in this article, funding comes from the USA government (ref, ref) or NASA (ref, ref), and many space organizations have cooperative agreements (ref, ref). " Even better might be to call out the funding source in each section. LouScheffer (talk) 01:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just declaring that the evidence here may be tainted due to the presence of studies about the interrelation between funding organisations and academia is slightly on the WP:SYNTH side. That is, we use general studies so that we can apply their results in this particular topic. This can be solved by finding WP:RS stating explicitly that the academic results regarding the space program are suspect due to funding connections. On the second point about declaring the funding sources, I don't disagree. It's public information. No reason hiding it from the reader. Dr.K. logos 01:11, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alternatively we could rename the article "Third party evidence for Apollo Moon landing", thus bypassing the independence issue. Dr.K. logos 01:38, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This makes sense - it's hard to verify that something is independent, but it's relatively easy to verify that is was not done by NASA and the US government. And it fits the evidence that is already on this page. LouScheffer (talk) 01:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Thank you very much. Dr.K. logos 02:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Third party" sounds good to me, because NASA could still be involved some way. However, are there a first and second parties? Bubba73 (talk), 02:37, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The way I see it is: The first party is the Government, the second party is NASA, the third party is everybody else. Dr.K. logos 02:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But the LRO is a NASA evidence, not "third party". OK, I admit that I haven't thought about the initial materials by NASA brought in 1969-1972. To exclude that large material, what about the following title: "Post-factum evidence for Apollo Moon landings"? --Лъчезар (talk) 09:30, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another title that no one would think to look for. And the article also includes observations made during the missions, not just after-the-fact. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 09:37, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, haven't thought of that. But "third party" implies that besides NASA there is yet another party (US Government). But NASA is a governmental agency, so it's subordinate to the government and not a separate party. Then who is the other party? --Лъчезар (talk) 09:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The same question Bubba73 raised. The point of this article is other parties besides NASA making observations. Whether that would be second, third, or tenth party is unclear. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:03, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then the title can start with "Other party..." or "Non-NASA..." or something like that, but the problem is that the LRO is not non-NASA. OK, what about renaming it to just "Evidence for Apollo Moon landings", as I initially proposed, and move all the initial NASA evidence such as Moon rocks etc. from the base article to this article, thus making the base article shorter? --Лъчезар (talk) 10:15, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't work, because the entire history of the space program leading up to and including the Apollo flights, both American and Soviet, is "evidence". The purpose of this article was to isolate observations by non-NASA sources. If there are questions about the LRO, then it could be removed from here and simply retained in the main hoax article. The exception would be if other parties have independently intercepted the signals and confirmed that they are what NASA says they are. I don't know if anything like that has been or can be done. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:25, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Moving all the LRO stuff to the main article would settle the issue. But I don't agree that the "entire history of the space program" can be an evidence for a particular part of it, which even proved to be a "deaf branch" and had much more political than scientific impact. --Лъчезар (talk) 10:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the "deaf leaf branch" reference. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about my non-precise wording. This was just a literal translation of the Bulgarian phrase. In the tree of evolution, there are some branches that have not developed. So I made a comparison to them. Probably the best rough English equivalent would be to say "deadlock". --Лъчезар (talk)
How can you possibly remove the best evidence yet (independent academic research analysis of the LRO evidence) from this article? Just to satisfy people who wouldn't believe in the landings if you took them there on a trip and allowed them to wonder around taking their own photographs? You will never satify this element and their sole aim in this particular debate is to get the LRO evidence out. Then they will start to try to get it removed altogether from other pages. 81.149.153.146 (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Because there is a question about whether it's "independent" or not. If that's in question, then it shouldn't be in this page, but in the main page. Don't worry about it being removed from the hoax article. That won't happen. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 10:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's as independent as lots of the other evidence in this page, such as rocks and reflectors, both originally supplied by Nasa. Don't be fooled. This is part of a campaign to get the LRO images off, because they are fatal to The Cause. 81.149.153.146 (talk) 11:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Of course! As I said, they're very interesting! :) --Лъчезар (talk) 10:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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