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July 21

Identifying an unknown US sword

Hello all! I suppose this question would loosely go under "history." We've had this sword stowed away either in a closer or under a parlor sofa for quite some time. I only just now got to taking a close look at it. There are some ornate inscriptions on the blade; you can pick out a shield, probably an eagle here and there, you know, stuff you'd expect to see engraved. In addition, on one side is a nice big "US," and on the other a "Pluribus Unum" (I can't seem to find the "E"). I combed over the blade and scabbard in search of a date, to no avail. Any help on some identification? I'll list some details:

• The hilt is goldish, covered in engraved four-point stars.
• The scabbard is primarily silver, but there are four gold areas:
  • The very top (which the cross-guard rests on when sheathed)
  • The very end (which I guess would be the chape, but it actually extends off the basic shape of the sheathed sword. A similar shape can be seen on the end of the scabbard in this sword.)
  • Two separate rings where you attach...um, something to something...they're for attaching the sword to your body, of course, but I'm a dunce at how it actually attaches. They're similar in shape to the rings on Marxuach's sabre in the preceding image. However, they are placed a bit farther apart on the scabbard than on Marxuach's.

And of course, some rather rough measurements:

• The blade is 30.5 inches.
• The grip is 3.5 inches.
• The inscriptions on the blade end about 17.5 inches from the cross-guard.

There's also something a bit unusual with the pommel. At the very end (that is, opposite the blade), there is a silver circular piece, topped with a gold cap nut/acorn nut. I really don't think unscrewing it is a good idea...

I did browse through a few US military sword sites, but nothing looked like it. So, with this plethora of information, anyone have a clue?--The Ninth Bright Shiner 03:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

With the inscriptions about halfway down the blade, it sounds to me like some kind of ceremonial sword. A photo might help with identification, but you might do better taking it to a specialist. Of course, you might find out it is a worthless souveneir from somewhere, but it might genuinely be worth something or at least turn out to be something interesting.

As for the nut at the end of the handle, I did read that with Samurai swords, the patina on the tang inside the handle is particularly important to the value of the sword - maybe the same applies to your sword, so I suggest you do not remove the handle and certainly do not clean the tang without seeking expert advice. Astronaut (talk) 08:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The legal concept of acquiescence -- does it exist in any United States laws?

The legal concept of acquiescence (see article), are there United States laws, especially Federal, where it is in law? (I don't mean the precedent Georgia v. South Carolina.) Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 07:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

There are definitely adverse possession laws in the U.S. Although I think they are mostly at the state level. 164.156.231.55 (talk) 12:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no one acquiescence statute, but there are many statutes and common law doctrines that reflect this concept. For example, it may be said to underlie statutes of limitation, where a would-be plaintiff has only a limited amount of time to bring suit after being on notice of a wrong. John M Baker (talk) 17:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Adverse Possession is part of property law. The states have almost exclusive jurisdiction. The common law requirements are that the adverse possession must be open and continuous, hostile and last the statutory period. Recently, I read a text that described it as a statute of limitations for trespass actions. Now I realize the previous poster answered the same question. The s/l for trespass formulation makes so much sense to me. The elements now made more sense to me.75Janice (talk) 13:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)75Janice

Meaning of Maxims and Arrows 27

What is the meaning of Maxims and Arrows 27 from Twilight of the Idols By Friedrich Nietzsche The quote is "Women are considered profound. Why? Because we never fathom their depths. But women aren't even shallow."

What is the meaning? Is it as simple as women are below shallow or is there a much more profound meaning? I have heard the quote used many times but with no context —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.64.15 (talk) 07:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The original is "Man haelt das Weib fuer tief - warum? weil man nie bei ihm auf den Grund kommt. Das Weib ist noch nicht einmal flach" - It's just an aphorism - of the type "I'll never understand women because they are illogical creatures - maybe that makes them profound?", and similar to "rocket science is easier than marriage"

The subtitle of the book is "how to philosophise with a hammer" - don't expect it to be profound - most are trite. In contect most of this section of the book is about "turning on the head" or "giving a twist to" common phrases or sayings - it's not a particularily profound or philosophical work by any measure. 83.100.250.79 (talk) 10:25, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Learning to kill

I read On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society awhile back and was most interested in his thesis that specific changes were made in the training of Western soldiers in the years after World War II along Skinnerian lines in order to increase their individual chances of being psychologically capable of killing when the chance game. Unfortunately the book is high on argument (and anecdote) and low on historical citations. Does anyone know another good, generally readable book on such a topic that goes into this particular type of training? E.g. Skinnerian conditioning in the American armed forces between WWII and Vietnam. Any suggestions? --98.217.14.211 (talk) 13:05, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Or put another way. Is there a good book on the use of psychology in warfare for the purposes of training, not psychological warfare as it is typically understood? I'm looking for a historical study on the uses of psychology in developing troop training, basically. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 15:31, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

It is not about psychology per se, but S.L.A. Marshall's "Men against fire" (a controversial work) contended that in World War II, only one in four U.S. infantrymen used their weapons during a battle. Some comments about Marshall's work and his critics can be viewed here. Marshall contended that his work resulted in the percentage of "active participants" rising to 55% by the Korean War, so there may be something for you in this work. Cheers W. B. Wilson (talk) 09:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

UK Ministry of Information during WWI

I noticed the following unsourced statement about the (former) Ministry of Information, in the Censorship in the United Kingdom article: "During the First World War it was infamous for having a staff of 999." Was that because government bodies with 1000 or more staff were subject to greater supervisory or public disclosure requirements, and the Ministry was able to get away with specific, identifiable dirty deeds because it was small? Would be very interesting to read about if so, but otherwise "infamous" is just a throwaway superlative that should be deleted. 86.162.194.37 (talk) 14:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

That should be "During the Second World War..." If you're headed to the library, try: Riley, Norman. (1940). 999 and all that. OCLC 12876189.—eric 04:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Can a nun enter a civil marriage

Can a Roman Catholic nun enter a civil marriage? Does any secular country forbid Roman Catholic nuns to enter a civil marriage? Surtsicna (talk) 14:25, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that any country (even the Vatican) has laws forbidding Catholic nuns from getting married. The Catholic church forbids marriage. A nun can freely marry with the possible result being loss of status as a nun by the church, not the country. -- kainaw™ 15:31, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I have heard of such cases. Of course those are moot, since in all cases the nun/priest had to denounce her nunhood/his priesthood before the actual marriage could take place. And I also find it less than likely that any country would have a law forbidding nuns marriage. TomorrowTime (talk) 19:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

If the Pope himself wanted to marry someone, I doubt there's be any law preventing him. There'd of course be theological ramifications ..., but that's not the state's concern. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Well isn't the Pope himself a head of a theological state? Googlemeister (talk) 15:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Correct, but he is also the head of a religion. Are the rules/laws of the state identical to the rules/laws of the religion? It is very possible that the religion forbids the Pope to marry but there is no specific law in the state forbidding marriage. -- kainaw™ 15:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It would probably be quite tricky for the Pope to marry in the Vatican City itself. But if he went to another country to do it, there'd be less of an issue. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the nun in question (if british) could enter into a civil partnership... AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It depends what you consider a secular country I guess. Israel for example is often considered a secular country, but there's currently no provision for a civil marriage in Israel so clearly a nun, and everyone else can't enter in to a civil marriage in Israel. However it's still possible the Pope or a nun could get married in Israel if one of the 15? religious authorities were willing to marry him or the nun and if he/she were to marry overseas, his/her marriage would be recognised and that's even if he/she gets married to another man/nun(woman). There may be other countries which some consider secular but with similar issues. Nil Einne (talk) 12:22, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the Pope: the rule banning priests (excluding monks, who follow special rules) from marrying is internal church discipline that the Pope can change. It has no theological ramification. David.Monniaux (talk) 19:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Weren't there a few Popes or so with children? I remember hearing about a Pope who was the son of a Pope sometime around the Renaissance. So perhaps this has changed? (Then of course, they could perhaps be situations like that of the former? Argentine? (somewhere in that region) president.) Vltava 68 00:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

If you can't say something nice...

Every time Bernanke makes a public statement, the Dow takes a 50+ point hit. Why does he insist on making public statements? Googlemeister (talk) 16:27, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Every time? Literally, every single time he has made any sort of public statement, the market drops more than 50 points? If you actually believe that, you shouldn't be messing with stocks. Or... now that I think of it... I have a bunch of Martian stock that is very rare that I can sell you for, say, just $5,000/share. -- kainaw™ 16:38, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Considering how stocks are fungible, rarity is not a means of increasing value. And I mean everytime he makes a public televised statement. Googlemeister (talk) 16:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not at all sure of the accuracy of the premise (that Bernanke's statements (almost) invariably make the market go down). Even assuming it to be true, however, consider that maintaining the valuation of the stock market neither is, nor should be, a central responsibility of the Fed Chairman. He has more fundamental responsibilities with respect to, for example, the monetary supply and the banking system; protecting the interests of stock market investors and speculators is at best a secondary consideration. In addition, there are many occasions on which he is obligated to speak, and others on which he may believe providing reliable public information is part of his job. John M Baker (talk) 16:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the questioner could read today's news and realize that the base of his claim is simply not true. -- kainaw™ 20:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

All I know is stock was about 60+ before he said anything, it dropped to -20 or so, and then eventually worked its way back up to end at 60+ or so yesterday. Probably just observer bias. Googlemeister (talk) 15:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Almost all of Bernanke's public statements come from Congressional hearings, i.e. he is compelled to testify. Fed chairman have made an art of speaking without saying anything substantive at these hearings so as to avoid unduly influencing the markets. Alan Greenspan was renowned for this, though he occasionally slipped and said something immoderate ("irrational exuberance"). —D. Monack ^talk 03:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Retiree organization in USA

I can't recall the name nor find anything in the Category:Retirement in the United States - but I am almost sure there is an important organization in USA for senior citizens that has major influence on politics by lobbying... any thoughts? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:42, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

How about AARP? Googlemeister (talk) 16:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is the AARP. Tempshill (talk) 17:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Are confessional booths always made of wood?

Are confessional booths always made of wood? -- 208.120.179.230 (talk) 17:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

They can be brick or stone as well.83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

When I was on tour in Europe 2 months ago I saw a church with a confessional made of glass, both the outer door as well as the panel between the confessor and the priest. The confessor spoke into a microphone which presumably had a speaker on the priest's end, and vice versa. Since the whole setup was glass, we could look in from the main floor of the church. It might have been Notre Dame (/me runs off to check his pictures...), yes it is Notre Dame. I have a not-so-good picture of one. Do our articles on confessional or Notre Dame particularly need a pic? Zunaid 18:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean Notre Dame de Paris? Algebraist 18:52, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Buying share - online or physical broker?

I would like to buy some (maybe U.S/Cad) shares and I live in Canada. I'm treating this like gambling so I'm not really asking for advice on which stock to buy etc. I'm thinking of spending roughly 100 ~ 300 Canadian dollar per month. As a complete stock newbie (with no knowledge whatsoever, crazy, I know) which method would be better? Buying share online or go visit a physical broker? I tried Google, which return pages after pages of online share trading company intend on promoting their own services. The closest question I could find asked in the past here in the reference desk is "Stock exchange and share things", which quickly go off topic and not really helpful. What are the pro and con of each (buying online vs. broker)? Lastly, any link/book/advice to some intro material (basic lingo, very basic working on share/market) would be much appreciated. Thank you very much in advance. Royor (talk) 19:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

You really want two things: First, how much is the charge for the service? It may be a monthly charge or yearly charge. Second, how much does it cost to submit a transaction? It may be a flat rate or a percentage or a combination of both. With those two figures, you can budget how much the service charge will be, regardless of if you trade or not. Then, you can add in the transaction charges when you plan your purchases. When talking to brokers (online or in person) pester them to give you those two values. Nothing else is important until you are a power broker and you need split-second trades to profit off the microadjustments in a million different stocks at once. -- kainaw™ 19:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The online service I personally use has a $US10 per trade fee and no other fees. Based on this, you would probably want to do trades of at least $500, maybe $1000 to keep the fees from eating too much of any gains you might get. The physical brokers I know start at $30 a trade, so if you are not trading in large chunks of $, online will probably be the wiser choice. Googlemeister (talk) 20:05, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't think you can get trades in Canada for that low a price. I think the lowest you'd probably find for occasional (ie not over quite a few per month) is about $20CAD a transaction from online companies. I asked at TD the other day and they said it was $29CAD a trade there. As Googlemeister says, if you're only buying or selling small amounts you are going to pay a lot of it to the broker. If you are just looking for a reliable way to invest money, I would recommend index funds. As someone pointed out to me here a few weeks ago, you can get TD e-series funds with an MER of 0.31%. You don't pay any transaction fees, and unless it's an RRSP you don't pay a yearly fee (if it is, it's $100 a year unless you have over $25000 in it, in which case it is waived). You can set it up to buy an amount each month (see dollar cost averaging) and not have to worry about buying or selling individual shares which can be incredibly volatile. Of course it's less fun - if you're just looking for the joy of speculating by all means go ahead, but be advised that it's quite possible you'll lose a lot of money doing it and your chances of "hitting it big" are probably less than you might imagine. TastyCakes (talk) 20:15, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Another note that I've found many people to miss... Buying stock is a trade. Selling stock is a trade. If you are paying $20/trade, you pay $40 for the entire buy-sell transaction. Therefore, say you purchase 10 shares of stock at $10/share ($100 total). The stock needs to increase to $14/share when you sell just to break even. So, before you start gambling, see if any stocks you are eyeballing happen to be making similarly large jumps in value. -- kainaw™ 20:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't recommend this idea of yours, because the transaction fees are going to dwarf any profits. In addition to the regular commission to the broker, you are supposed to buy shares of stock in lots of 100, or else you have to pay additional "odd lot" charges. Buying Intel will therefore cost you US$1,890 plus the commission to the broker. I applaud the idea of experimenting and starting small, but a less expensive way to do it would be to find a website that runs a stock market simulation game, and play that for a couple of years until you have more money you're willing to gamble all at once. Or invest in a stock-based, no-load mutual fund and follow its progress. Tempshill (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

In the UK i can trade stocks in any number and my charges are the same, not sure if this 'odd lot' charge is something unique to the US/Canada but never had it disclosed in any of my trades.

Another thing I would add - the bid offer spread is something to consider. Some stocks can have a very wide spread which adds to your need for more returns. I would say - go for it if you can afford to (and are happy to) lose every penny, and are not expecting to make much - if any - money. I have enjoyed my trading (which has been profitable even during the current economic downturn, thanks to Barclays and Aviva) and whilst all the above is perfectly true, and yes trade-costs and other incidentals add to the need for returns, if you are interested in learning more about trading, business and financial-information I find there's nothing like having money ride on it to make you take an interest!

Oh and another thing - in the Uk you pay Stamp Duty (a tax). I've no idea for Canada, but similar taxes may apply, adding to how much your need for profit. ny156uk (talk) 22:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for all the prompt replies. I have a few more related questions:

• 1) I heard about penny stocks, should a newbie try or stay clear of them?
• 2) So suppose I buy stocks once every year (CAD$4000 worth) and hold them for say ... 5 year before doing anything to them, would transaction fee still dwarf any profit?
• 3) Tempshill you mention the amount I'm willing to spend is too little to "buy-in". How much would be "enough", or at least worth the trouble?
• 4) I’m already buying RRSP for tax purposes (from my insurance company) - if I want to use index fund or mutual fund of my choice (right now I just give the company money and they pick for me) as my next year’s RRSP who should I approach? Bank? Insurance company? Is it really recommended (to pick your own) or should I just believe in the pro who do this for a living?

Royor (talk) 03:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, despite your not asking for stock picks, this is getting close to giving financial advice, and the Reference Desk is not supposed to give professional advice. Have you considered blowing a couple hundred to spend an hour talking with a financial advisor? Or, at a minimum, read The Intelligent Investor. I'll try to field some non-advice questions, though:

1. Penny stocks. These are simply stocks that trade for very low prices. They are trading that low for a great reason — the companies have very little value, because they aren't earning much, their debt payments are larger than their foreseeable profitability, etc. As the article states, their prices are pretty easily manipulated, and they are usually thinly traded. A total crapshoot.

2. This is of course impossible to answer because stocks are often like gambling, and nobody knows if there will be any profit at all. If you're talking about "odd lot" fees, $4000 would avoid them if the stock price is $40 or under, because you could afford to purchase exactly 100 shares. But then you are putting all your eggs in one basket. You should settle down with the book I mentioned and then do some math and figure out what price targets make sense for you, or whether mutual funds are a better idea.

3. See 2.

4. I don't know the answer to the question, but a good thing to investigate is the common claim of the superior performance of index funds over time when compared to actively managed funds. (Of course there are years, like last year, in which index funds lost millions of people a metric ton of money, despite their supposed superiority.)

Hope this helps - let me recommend that financial advisor or a lot of reading to you again. Tempshill (talk) 04:42, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, I think the Intelligent Investor would be a great book for anyone that wants to get started buying and selling stocks. TastyCakes (talk) 05:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you again. Financial advisor sounds good, any additional recommend reading? Royor (talk) 07:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Never heard of the odd lot fee. Googlemeister (talk) 15:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest reading about the Efficient markets hypothesis - implying that stocks picked at random are as good as any other. Warren Buffet is, by the way, consistent with this hypothesis, because out of the millions of investors, one of them by chance is going to be the best one. 89.240.217.9 (talk) 20:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

That sounds totally bogus. Consider the following. If stocks are picked at random, and I get a large amount of GM (who is extremely likely to have stock that is worthless) I would be better off with (random - GM). This would indicate, that random stocks are not as good as picked stocks. Now there is certainly uncertainty in the markets, but that does not mean that there are not some obvious bonehead plays. In poker you never fold if you are holding a royal flush. Googlemeister (talk) 13:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Reading Intelligent Investor now - and the funny thing is the Efficient markets hypothesis article on wiki read like it is AGAINST EMH and spend a lot of time disproving it. I also asked around and yes, in Canada, there is an "odd lot fee" when you purchase stocks. Royor (talk) 21:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Homosexuality.

In Saudi Arabia, is it illegal to BE gay?. Or to engage in homosexual activity? --190.50.111.180 (talk) 23:05, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

See LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia. Laws generally govern activity, not states of being (in part because a state of being is not usually prosecutable, while an activity is). In the cases of groups, religions, states, etc. that are against homosexuality, they generally don't recognize that one can be a homosexual if one is not engaging in homosexual activity (that is, they don't believe homosexuality is anything more than a "choice"). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 23:40, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Pacific Scandal 1872

Why did the pacific scandal lead to the resignation of Macdonald's government when all he did was ask for money from Sir Hugh Allan? Don't politicians ask for money from others all the time? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.144.211 (talk) 23:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

We have an article about the Pacific Scandal. It wasn't so much that they were asking for money, but that it was so secretive, and there was apparently bribery going on. It wasn't much of a scandal at all really, but it's the best we can do in Canada! Adam Bishop (talk) 00:24, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

July 22

Libertarian socialism and left libertarianism

What is the difference between libertarian socialism and left libertarianism? If there is no difference, then why two separate terms are used? --AquaticMonkey (talk) 02:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

As described in the articles, left libertarianism specifies common ownership of natural resources and nothing else, while libertarian socialism is far more prescriptivist as to the structures of economic activity. —Tamfang (talk) 05:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

"the good doctor"

This phrase is puzzlingly loved by composers of blurbs, who apply it to anyone known as Dr., good or (oh, irony! how original lol!) otherwise. As one isn't nearly as likely to encounter "the good professor" or "the good captain", it appears to be allusive, but to what? —Tamfang (talk) 04:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

See The Good Doctor for some possibilities. 70.90.174.101 (talk) 06:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Not terribly satisfying, but thanks anyway. —Tamfang (talk) 02:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Moken Sea Gypsies of Thailand

Hi I need to do a essay on indigenous people are the Moken sea gypsies indigenous to their area —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madrob (talk • contribs) 07:55, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Gypsies aren't usually ingigenous (by definition), the moken according to the article are austronesian which suggests a more eastern origin, more pacific in origin, but they live around the west of SE asian penisular Indochina. So on the surface it looks like they are not.83.100.250.79 (talk) 10:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Visigothic establishment in Hispania

When did the Visigothic kings came to rule Hispania? Who was the first king of Hispania? --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 10:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Have you read Visigothic Kingdom? Adam Bishop (talk) 12:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Scandalous Saints

What Saints would be likely to appear in the tabloids today. Which ones might have had a turbulent or scandelous enough life to be in the likes of TMZ? Between halucinations and revelations there's bound to have been some desolute lives out there. Which Saints are the most popular and would end up in the press? Thank you. 190.229.67.201 (talk) 14:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's an interesting article : Cecil Adams Who Was the Worst Catholic Saint. APL (talk) 15:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That is interesting. And I thought Mother Teresa was bad.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The New Orleans Saints perhaps? Googlemeister (talk) 16:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Not sure how scandalous it'd be but there was a saint who had his balls bitten off by a dog. Don't know his name but there's a statue of him in a church in Salvador, Brazil. AllanHainey (talk) 22:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Historical Jesus question

Do scholars of historical Jesus believe the man in quesion actually was crucified and died on the cross? If so, why was the man crucified? (from a hisorical not religious perspectve) --193.253.141.64 (talk) 19:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Historicity of Jesus says that "scholars ...agree..." that Jesus "on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion", so that should answer the first part of your question. -- Finlay McWalter Talk 19:06, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

ok. And their opinion of whether he died on the cross? To me, if he was seen again later occams razer implies that he didn't die, but Im interested in what historians believe... --193.253.141.65 (talk) 19:25, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know anything about "historical Jesus" arguments, but premature burials were uncommon but not unheard of throughout most of history until modern medical technology was invented. Even if he was crucified and the Romans declared him dead, unless they did an EKG it's not completely impossible for him to be up and about a couple of days later. (Improbable, though, but that's why we're still talking about it twenty centuries later.) 72.10.110.109 (talk) 19:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

also what about why? (from historical not religious perspective)...--193.253.141.64 (talk) 19:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Although there is no consensus as to the reason for his crucifixion, it followed closely (in the chronology used in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke) on his overturning the tables at the Temple, so many scholars think this was at least the trigger for his being turned over to the Romans.

The crucifixion itself is considered one of the best-attested events of the first century, since there are multiple sources confirming it occurred and it would at least initially have been difficult for the Christians to overcome the fact that their god had been crucified (i.e., for Christians to say it happened was a statement against their own interests). There is no serious suggestion that Jesus did not die on the cross. The historicity of the resurrection is quite a different matter; its evidence consists of a much smaller number of reports that his tomb was found empty and that a small number of followers saw him or had visions of him. As our article on Historical Jesus puts it, "Most scholars believe supernatural events cannot be reconstructed using empirical methods, and thus consider the resurrection non-historical but instead a philosophical or theological question." John M Baker (talk) 19:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm a little puzzled by some of John M Baker's assertions.

• " . . . one of the best-attested events of the first century, since there are multiple sources confirming it occurred . . ." What sources exist at all that are independent of the Gospels and Acts - which are several decades post facto and which collectively derive from only a couple or so earlier accounts? I was under the impression that the very few supposed non-canonical near-contemporary references (e.g. in Josephus' writings) were either references only to what early Christians themselves believed (i.e. not independent of the aforementioned), or are now generally acknowledged to be later interpolations, the sole disputed exception being the (possibly doctored) mention by Tacitus dated to around 116AD.

• ". . . it would . . . have been difficult for the Christians to overcome the fact that their god had been crucified . . ." The re-interpretation of Jesus from failed candidate for Jewish Messiah-hood to sacrificed and resurrected God is surely what enabled the transformation of a Jewish socio-political faction into a new religion, changing the drawback into an asset. It could be, however, that the proto-Christians' belief that Jesus had genuinely died was sincere but mistaken, leading on to . . .

• "There is no serious suggestion that Jesus did not die on the cross." I thought his suspiciously quick death - around 9 hours as opposed to the usual 2 or 3 days (if at all: at least one Jewish man of the period is archaologically proven to have survived crucifixion), his 'corpse's' apparent disappearance, and various traditions of a subsequent terrestrial career quite aside from the canonical resurrection apparitions, had given rise to entertainable arguments for his possible survival (though I myself think it more likely that he did die and that the authorities removed his body to a common grave at the earliest (post-Sabbath) opportunity, in full accordance with prevailing local laws pertaining to those executed for (alleged) crimes such as his).

Enlarging on .109's answer above: yes, premature burial and/or recovery from an appearance of death were far from unknown, which is why Jewish law of the time stipulated that a person could only be declared dead after 3 days of lifelessness or when their body had demonstrably (by its smell) begun to decay. This is alluded to in the account of Jesus resurrecting Lazarus miraculously, when the bystanders gainsaid Jesus's assertion that Lazarus was merely sleeping by telling him "He stinketh."

And enlarging on John M Baker's reference to the reasons for Jesus's execution: he seems to have been embedded in a power struggle between Jewish socio-religio-political factions; collaborationist establishment Sadducees, populist liberal Pharisees, isolationist Essenes, freedom-fighting/terrorist Zealots and Sicarii, ascetic Nazarites, and doubtless others we know little or nothing of, all with different approaches to the basic problem of the Roman occupation. Jesus was probably a member of and/or aligned with one or more of these groups, while others probably wanted him dead because he was rocking the political boat and because they either genuinely thought he was a serious blasphemer (a capital offense in Jewish law) or were willing to pretend so as an excuse for his judicial elimination.

However, the Roman authorities probably reserved to themselves the power of execution, certainly by crucifixion and possibly by any means, and would have required reasons valid to themselves for it; mere blasphemy (in terms of Judaism) would not have sufficed of itself (near-contemporary Jewish executions such as the stoning of Stephen for blasphemy may well have been unsanctioned mob actions). They (in the person of Pontius Pilate) may, as John M Baker implies, have viewed Jesus's disruptive behaviour in the Temple (and elsewhere?) as sufficiently dangerous to warrant execution, or may have been willing to accommodate such a request from their Sadducean allies on the basis of the latters' (apparently irregular) religious trial of Jesus, or may have actually believed what seems to have been their official grounds, that he had proclaimed himself "King of the Jews", which would have been a treasonous challenge to the authority of Rome and the Emperor. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 02:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. And, as The Jesus Mysteries goes into great depth to explain, the crucifixion is probably the least likely of historical aspects. While virtually all the major aspects of the story told in the gospels have antecedents in earlier myths, the death-rebirth trope is the one most clearly defined - in Dionysus, Osiris, etc. - see Life-death-rebirth deity for more information. Matt Deres (talk) 13:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The crucifixion was acknowledged as a fact by all early Christian factions. In addition to the gospels and Acts, there are numerous references to it in the letters of Paul, which actually are the earliest surviving documents that refer to Jesus. Although Paul did not become a Christian until after the crucifixion, he knew many early Christians who would have witnessed these events.

Most historians consider that crucifixion would have been seen as a shameful death, undercutting any claim of divinity. As it turned out, of course, it was a factor supporting the growth of Christianity, but it probably would not have been seen that way at the time.

In the account by Mark, which is probably the earliest, death took about six hours. That's at least consistent with what we know - Jesus had already been flogged and was too tired to carry the cross, so fatigue and loss of blood probably made it more difficult for him to continue to fight asphyxiation. Crucifixion could take anywhere from minutes to days, and we don't have full details of the technique used. In the one known case of a survivor of crucifixion, the victim was removed from the cross while still alive. Premature burial may have happened on occasion, but it was quite uncommon, and there are few if any historians who argue that it was what happened here.

I haven't read The Jesus Mysteries, but our article suggests that it has come under quite a bit of criticism. John M Baker (talk) 17:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

My main problem is not with the actuality of the crucifixion's occurrence (though I'm willing to consider evidence to the contrary, as should any disinterested seeker of knowledge), but with your bold assertion that it is " . . . one of the best-attested events of the first century:" I'm sure there are many, many events of this era that are more widely and more reliably attested and documented.

Agreed on Paul's (genuine) letters, I was lazily and wrongly conflating them with Acts, but I understood the OP's questions to be implicitly asking for evidence independent of Christian scriptures, which rest on a slender base of originally oral anecdotes that obviously were not dispassionate. Whether one regards Paul as a reliable transmitter of whatever hearsay he chose to record depends on how accepting one is of the supernatural elements of the context - by his own account he committed and fomented lethal violence against ideological opponents, had his coat completely turned by experiencing an incapacitating vision, and even so pursued policies contrary to the consensus of his new allies, some of whom, as you say, had been Jesus's close associates and even relatives. Since one revisionist book has already been cited, may I recommend for a different POV on Saint Paul the work of Hyam Maccoby, particularly his The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity.

Where have we got to so far on the OP's questions, then? Historically speaking:

• Was Jesus crucified? - We all think yes (or at the least very likely), but differ as to the quality of the evidence.

• Why? - We've addressed various aspects but are I think in general agreement.

• Did he die on the cross? - Undecided. According to the religious scriptures supposedly derived ultimately from eyewitness accounts: his apparent death was faster than usual; his body (dead or alive) vanished a few hours later; he subsequently appeared, scarred but seemingly alive and material, to various people who knew him well. There are no reliably authentic contemporary non-religious records of his death (or for that matter his existence in the first place). There are some non-Christian traditions (Jewish and Hindu?) of disputable authenticity of his having had a post-crucifixion earthly career - these need more research. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 02:45, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Bear in mind that there are hardly any well-attested events from the first century, and those few almost entirely relate to the high points of imperial Rome and imperial China. As for Paul, he was writing within about 20 - 30 years after the crucifixion, to an audience that would have had other sources of information about it. It's hard to see how he could have been just making the crucifixion up out of whole cloth. As for the possibility that Jesus didn't die on the cross, while we're not going to get any definitive answer, the question was what historians think, and I believe there are few if any secular historians who take this view, though as you point out there are non-Christian religious traditions to that effect. None of these, however, date to the first century. John M Baker (talk) 11:34, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

It remains striking that the authorities did not smash his bones after taking him from the cross - I heard this was usually done, it remains striking, two, that his followers had procured a safe hiding place before the event. Occam's razor could add up to a number of possibilities: the Romans did not want him dead (at least Pilatus was washing his hands off this crime), Jusu followers wanted him alive - may be the Romans had made a deal to let him survive if his followers ensured he would leave the region and cause no further trouble. He most certainly left, yet the trouble was even worse with all the news that he did not die --Olaf Simons (talk) 12:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

John M Baker: I think we differ not on the probable and possible facts but merely on our direction of approach to them; you are quite correctly explaining why some purported details are unproven but possible, while I am suggesting why, though possible, they are unproven! To reiterate, all here seem to agree that (assuming the scriptural accounts are not wholly pious fictions/misunderstood parables/conspiratorial inventions/whatever, which remain possible but pretty unlikely), Jesus was almost certainly crucified; whether or not he died of it is rather less certain.

Olaf Simons: I was given to understand that it was common practice to break the live crucifixee's legs to hasten death, and that Jesus' unusually quick death anticipated the need for this. I hadn't heard of any similar post-death procedure, but if it were so it is, as you suggest, suggestive though completely unverifiable. As to your closing point, the Law of Unintended Consequences bites again! 87. . . . .195 posting from 87.194.161.147 (talk) 13:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

United States Special Operations Forces

Which of the United States Special Operations Forces is most elite? Can you just apply to be one? My friend is bragging that his bro is in special forces but I would think that their protocol wouldn't allow them to advertise that info in public. BTW, do they live in the public? If so, are they incognito where that they have a home front or a job front? --Reticuli88 (talk) 19:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Opinions will vary. In my experience, the particular special forces branch with which one is affiliated is "most elite". Cross-application is generally restricted by the branch of service: for instance, the SEALs are open only to members of the Navy or Coast Guard; however, there appears no restriction within branch of service (for instance, an Army soldier could attempt to join both the Rangers and the Green Berets). There is no particular secrecy associated with much of the special forces. On the other hand, how would we know about the secret ones? That said, members of special forces live much like any other members of the military -- often off-post, with the military as a day job. They should not be confused with intelligence operatives who work under cover. — Lomn 19:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Which is "most elite" is a matter of opinion; I'm sure all the members of each will contend it's them. They're all divisions of regular military forces, so you're recruited from the normal ranks of the army etc. - you don't just join Delta Force or the Seals straight from the street. So, to the extent that it's secret, they'd just say they're in the army or whatever. Anyone who is bragging they're in the SAS or whatever is, in my experience, generally in the catering corp. -- Finlay McWalter Talk 19:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

There is probably not a way to determine which SOP unit would be more elite then another that would be be without controversy. To become a member of such a unit, you would need to be a member of one of the branches of the US military first. From there, you can probably volunteer to apply for a SOP unit, and take the required training for it. Such training is pretty hardcore, and they generally fail a good portion of those who take it. They are usually as public as most others who are in the military, although most likely they will be involved in missions with higher levels of classification, though it is not always the case. There is not any real reason why they should be incognito at home about them being part of a special ops unit, and it is certainly a matter of pride to most of them. Googlemeister (talk) 19:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I can't at all speak for US special forces, but members of the UK's SAS, including its two territorial units, don't publicise their membership, and (even when they've left) their appearance on TV often shows them with their faces obscured. The rationale for this is that the SAS was heavily involved in operations against the PIRA and INLA, and they don't want current or former SAS members to face retaliation from said groups. -- Finlay McWalter Talk 19:47, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I would second Finlay McWalter's comments about secrecy. The US might be different, but Commonwealth SAS units keep their membership details private, and SAS members will not boast of their role. While they don't hide physically from the public, they might just refer to "being in the army". Personal details can also be kept under the radar by ex-directory listings, closed electoral roll listings and so forth. See for example, Willie Apiata, recent NZ recipient of the Victoria Cross; since it is unusual for a serving SAS member to be so identified, this was a significant award. Note that in his citation his team members' identities are hidden. See this Australian article for a similar story. Gwinva (talk) 05:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Are there any statistics to the female popluation of the United States Special Operations Forces? --Reticuli88 (talk) 19:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Yep, 100% male, 0% female. Googlemeister (talk) 19:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

False. The 160th SOAR, for example, "recruits women, though only for staff positions." I don't know the full breakdown, but it is not 100/0%. — Lomn 20:14, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Why so? --Reticuli88 (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

You may be interested in our article on women in the military, which has a large section on the specifics of women in the US military. — Lomn 20:18, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

In that article, it says that "stated justification include both social and physiological issues" as reasons why women are not allowed to serve in SOP or drive a sub. What exactly are the details of these reasons? --Reticuli88 (talk) 20:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The article on submarines can help with that Submarine#Women_as_part_of_crew. Fraternization in close quarters would be a concern in special ops forces as well, given that they work in small teams. As much as it's a generalization to say that would happen, it would appear to be a situation they would rather just avoid entirely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.132.9.130 (talk) 21:15, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

In addition to the fraternization issue, I believe that the US military still has a "no women in combat roles" rule. That's not to say that women do not participate in combat, but they are not assigned to roles where their primary duty would be active combat. (e.g. a guard may in the course of her duties fire on enemies, but active combat is not the *primary* role of a guard.) As the whole *point* of special forces is forward deployed active combat, females would be excluded based on that criteria. -- 128.104.112.87 (talk) 21:42, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I am pretty sure that this is a "paper rule" which in practice is falling out of use, and only applies now to very limited circumstances where women aren't assigned directly to infantry units. I recently heard a story about a woman Marine who asked for, and was assigned, a role as a door gunner on an Apache helicopter. Based on her descriptions of her role, it was certainly a combat role... --Jayron32 04:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, but the question is, will this 'paper rule' (presuming it isn't removed) remain a paper rule? As I understand it, there's some evidence that the enforcement of US military's policy on gays has varied depending on their needs. This is mentioned in Don't ask, don't tell albeit with {{fact}} tags. I have the idea I saw some source once showing the number of discharges albeit it may have been a personal website so not a RS. It seems to me part of the reason for the rule being 'paper' may be because of the high demand at the moment and if this were to change the enforcement of the rule may be more strict again. Of course, the rule may change itself, I believe Obama wants to allow gays to openly serve so perhaps he'll also consider removing the paper rule on women on combat positions. Nil Einne (talk) 12:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

It ends up being complicated even in fully integrated armed forces, like the Israelis have. I read that the Israelis found that when men and women served side by side, if the men perceived the women were in danger they would act far more violently than otherwise, which proved to be a liability (you don't always want your soldiers shooting up everything in sight). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Omar Bongo's death

How many national leaders attend Omar Bongo's funeral. Did John Kufuor go to his funeral Did he even hear about it. Omar Bongo die from a colon cancer, I was shock to hear Levy Patrick Mwanawasa die last year when is just a month till his 60th birthday. Did all African leaders attend his funeral or is only few people. Did Abdoulaye Wade and Paul Biya hear about it? Alot of people is sad Levy Patrick pass away. John Kufuor went to his funeral though. What about the leaders in West Africa?--69.228.145.50 (talk) 23:31, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The articles you linked to mention the leaders present at the funerals. Rmhermen (talk) 00:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

July 23

Minors Viewing Pornography

Is it illegal for teenagers to view pornography in the United States? I'm not talking about child pornography. Alittlemoneybill (talk) 02:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The sale of pornography to minors is illegal. Note: 19 year olds are not considered minors but are still teenagers, so your question has some ambiguity to it. Dismas|^(talk) 03:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

And what about minors viewing pornography with no sale involved? I suspect the OP is thinking of viewing it on the Internet, for free. Vimescarrot (talk) 09:05, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Most internet porn sites require the viewer to click a link that certifies they're 18 or older. If they're not, I guess they could be had up for providing false information (IANAL). Whether legally this is the same offence as viewing the porn, which is the logical consequence of the minor providing that false information, I couldn't say. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe—though am not sure—that pornography is something where the distribution, sale, and etc. of it to minors is illegal. The possession of it by minors is not—e.g. if a 10-year-old steals a pornographic magazine, there is no liable party. (This contrasts with, say, cigarettes and alcohol, which in some states is illegal to sell and possess by minors, and minors can receive citations for possessing it.) I'm not a lawyer, though, and I imagine this varies state-by-state anyway. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 13:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

lol wut if he steals it there's got to be something illegal about that :P 80.123.210.172 (talk) 16:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Not if he's under the age of criminal responsibility. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

If an adult leaves it around where the minor could easily find it and steal it, the adult could be charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor, or even criminal mischief. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess it comes down to a similar deal as with cigarrettes and alcohol. In many jurisdictions it's illegal to sell them to people under the legal age, but it's not illegal for them to consume it. On the other hand, the same jurisdictions often have laws regarding provision of illegal material (be it cigarrettes, alcohol or pornography) to minors. Anyone considering anything like this should check their own jurisdiction's rules. Summary: The viewing may not be in itself illegal, but the provision of it usually is. 130.56.65.25 (talk) 01:11, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

International occupation of Jerusalem

Given the very long-standing dispute over who has the rights to live in / own / administer / control Jerusalem, I was wondering: has it ever been considered to declare Jerusalem extraterritorial (similar to the status of the UN building in New York), administered by an international organisation (such as, but not necessarily, the UN)? Please note that I am explicitly not looking for a debate about the merits of this solution (or any other solution to the political problems in that area of the world). Thanks in advance! — QuantumEleven 11:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

An episode of The West Wing featured an Israeli-Palestinian peace conference at Camp David, which I think countenanced designating a small part of the city (I think just the Temple Mount and environs) as something like the territory of an embassy. -- Finlay McWalter Talk 12:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I just watched the relevant episode, "The Birnam Wood", and in it (in an attempt to solve the logjam that the status of Jerusalem is having for their discussions) Kate Harper says "After the Six Day War, the Israelis offered to give the UN diplomatic status and immunities over the holy sites in Jerusalem", and she suggests this same status could be given to the Palestinians (so the Israelis retain sovereignty, but would be bound not to enter the Haram al-Sharif under the terms of the Vienna Convention). That's a different solution than that suggested by corpus separatum; did Israel make this offer, or is this just a WW writer fantasy? -- Finlay McWalter Talk 14:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I seem to remember (this was way back in 1995 or something, may be before Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated) some talk of a proposal for jointly administering Jerusalem. Not quite the same thing but related Nil Einne (talk) 12:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

UN control was proposed (and passed, only to be nullified by war) under the Partition Plan for Palestine (Resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947), accorrding to this site (which is part of the UN) and the wikilinked page. - Jarry1250 ^{[ In the UK? Sign the petition! ]} 12:43, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

See Corpus_Separatum... AnonMoos (talk) 12:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

music instruments

I am trying to find information on a French violin factor, Gaggini, active in the town of Nice in the XXth C. I could not find anything in Wikipedia. Thank you CV —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisv73 (talk • contribs) 14:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• All I could quickly find was this: Pietro Gaggini, Nice 1943. Gaggini was the nephew and student of Alberto Blanchi in Nice and took over his business in the 1930's. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 15:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Nautical chart lines

What is the point of the seemingly arbitrary lines, which seem to be at regular numbers of degrees from certain points on charts lik e this one? Distance measurement? - Jarry1250 ^{[ In the UK? Sign the petition! ]} 14:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Great question. Hopefully someone will know for definite but from a bit of searching it kinda seems like they might be a series of Compass rose for ease of use with a parallel ruler but i've no idea if that's true (i've no boating or nautical knowledge - it's just based on a bit of guesswork from articles I could find that seemed to fit the bill). ny156uk (talk) 15:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Rhumb lines? Deor (talk) 18:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Rhumb_line#Usage seems to confirm that. As noted, good question.. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Cf. the file description here. Deor (talk) 18:43, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

history of racism in Toronto

How racism started in Toronto and the rest of Canada? Is there any website about history of racism in Toronto and rest of Canada? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.53.160 (talk) 15:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

How about the first result when searching "history of racism in Toronto"? That gives this link which is, in turn, a list of possibily relevant links to other sites (relating to Canada in general, for the most part). A number of the links I checked were out-of-date, but the material may still be available on the web. For example, "A History of Race/ism" can be found at this location. Some of the other search results may also be useful. --Kateshortforbob 15:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

As for "how racism started"... As soon as someone showed up who looked different, racism started. There was well documented racism among the Native Americans, so it predates anything current. -- kainaw™ 18:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

That depends on how you define racism. Native Americans (First Nations) engaged in ethnocentrism and persecution of people from other ethnic groups. Native American ethnocentrism was based on identity and cultural traits. That is something different from modern, pseudoscientific racism, which involves a belief that there are biological entities called races, and that the genetic makeup of one race makes it naturally superior to another. Native Americans certainly did not have such a belief. This belief or ideology first arose during the 19th century in Europe, though it was based on earlier ideas about superiority based on physical appearance, which date back to the European conquest of the Americas and the transAtlantic slave trade. Again, this earlier racism based on appearance was very different from Native American ethnocentrism, which existed between ethnic groups indistinguishable from each other in appearance. The earlier version of European racism was already in place among the first French visitors to the Toronto region, who viewed the Iroquoian people of the region as inferior savages. The later pseudoscientific version of racism, based on (false) beliefs about genetics, gradually spread to Toronto along with the rest of North America during the late 19th century. Marco polo (talk) 20:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, it isn't true that something like racism was inevitable when premodern people encountered others of different appearance. For example, ancient Egyptians were darker in complexion than ancient Greeks or Romans, but there is no evidence at all that Greeks or Romans considered them inferior, except to the extent that ethnocentric Greeks thought that any non-Greeks (regardless of appearance) were inferior. Marco polo (talk) 20:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

There are three kinds of humans: those whose culture is less successful than ours, who are subhuman monkeys that God hates; those whose culture is more successful than ours, who are effete degenerates that God hates; and those whose culture is much the same as ours, who obviously stole all our ideas and are using them in a way God doesn't like. Race, nation, and what football team we support are back-formations we make up to justify our intrinsic (and, once, genetically well-founded) tribalism, something we've been carrying around since we all really were monkeys. Unless mitochondrial eve lived in Cabbagetown, none of this is native to, or peculiar to, Toronto. 87.114.144.52 (talk) 22:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

We had a question the other day about the Riot at Christie Pits in the 1930s. There were also Catholic vs. Protestant riots in the nineteenth century (the Jubilee Riot, for example, which we don't seem to have an article about). There hasn't been a lot of racism against blacks, as much as there has been against Jews and the Irish, which is not surprising given Toronto's Protestant English history. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I know I know; I know I don't know; I don't know I know; I don't know I don't know

Do you have any references that encompasses these statements? Has there been any philosophical essays dealing with these 4 statements? Here they are again:
There are things I know I know,
There are things I know I don't know,
There are things I don't know I know,
There are things I don't know I don't know

Rfwoolf (talk) 21:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, Donald Rumsfeld was (undeservedly) hammered by the press and the Plain English Campaign for talking about unknown unknowns. --ColinFine (talk) 22:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can't guarantee there haven't been any philosophical essays specifically about your 4 sentences, but as far as I can tell they are simple english sentences each with a clearly recognisable meaning. Unless you were thinking of a specific essay, it does sound like something would Hegel would warble on about.

However for more on known, and unknown things see Knowledge, and Epistemology - which adds to your list - ie "there are things I know, but aren't true..", you might also read A priori and a posteriori (or alternatively maybe you were thinking of 'Intrinsic and extrinsic knowledge'). Apologies if I've missed some obvious and well known essay that is the answer.83.100.250.79 (talk) 23:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

It looks like you could clarify the lines by replacing the first "knows" with "aware of"

eg "There are things I'm not aware that I know" ie things you didn't realise you knew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.250.79 (talk) 23:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

There's a model used in teaching, which I know as the 4-stage mastery model, which roughly corresponds to Rumsfeld's burblings. The 4 stages are, in ascending order of competence: unconscious incompetence (you don't know what you don't know), conscious incompetence (you know what you don't know), conscious competence (you know what you know but still have to think about doing it), and unconscious competence (you know what you know and can do it without conscious thought). If anyone can give me the source of this model, I'd be very pleased because I've been trying to remember it since 1993! --TammyMoet (talk) 07:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

No source that I can see but we do have an article on that: Four stages of competence. --bodnotbod (talk) 13:28, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Knots by R.D.Lainge —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 14:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

African American Money Donation to Africa

How much money do African Americans donate to help the people of Sub-Saharan Africa each year? 174.114.236.41 (talk) 23:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

This may be estimated via surveys, but there will be no way of directly knowing, as charities don't ask the race of donors. Tempshill (talk) 23:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

July 24

superoldest living black peoples

Generally, on average old black women lives longer or old black womens live longer? One black women have live until 108. Bettie Wilson, one of the oldest black women live till 115. One old black man who was a golf player live until 111, the first national leader on Malawi live until 100.--69.228.145.50 (talk) 00:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

A few not randomly selected data points do not make a good basis for such determinations. You need a large sample to get reliable numbers. The U.S. CDC has a good graph on page four of this report: [1] They use a very large data set and find that black women on average live several years longer than black men (and about the same average lifespan as white men, but trailing white women by several years). Rmhermen (talk) 07:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Mexican and Iranian skin colors

What is the general color of Mexicans. Is Mexians usually tan, white, or brown in skin color. What about Indian and Arabian skin colors. Aren;t they orange or yellow in skin color. Is Asians white?--69.228.145.50 (talk) 00:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Mexicans and Iranians and Indians and Arabians and Asians all have a wide range of skin colors. Usually, skin colors of people range are various shades of tans and browns, though some people have pinkish tones mixed in as well. --Jayron32 00:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

All of these groups vary quite a bit. There are Asians with very light, white-like skin tone, and there are those with very dark skin tone. Different regions of India have very, very different skin and facial apperances. Arab is a language and cultural group and corresponds with a hugely varied geographical range. Mexicans have as varied skin tones as you can find anywhere else. None of these skin colorations line up with crude color categories like "orange" or "yellow". --98.217.14.211 (talk) 03:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

See Human skin color and Race (classification of human beings) for related topics. Tempshill (talk) 06:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

And for the record, most Iranians are not arab. Googlemeister (talk) 15:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Nil Ellien

@Nil: Actually there is a difference between language and dialect. Many languages have mutually intelligible dialects, as well as language isolates.174.3.103.39 (talk) 00:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

If you want to continue that discussion, post to that discussion. If you want to talk to Nil, post to his talk page. It'll help if you spell his name approximately correctly. Algebraist 01:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

lol in the archive? He'd be having a discussion with himself because no one watches any of those pages

The discussion is over. This was for the desk, not for his talk page.174.3.103.39 (talk) 02:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a question then? -Elmer Clark (talk) 08:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Visigothic languages

Did the Visigoths who lived in the Visigothic Kingdom speak a Germanic language? If so, how is it that those who succeeded them following the Reconquista spoke a Romance language? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The original conquerors certainly spoke an East Germanic language, but the Visigoths in Spain seem to have formed a small and somewhat inward-looking ruling elite, while the majority of the population went on speaking their previous languages. There's some discussion of the almost completely negligeable linguistic effects of Visigothic rule in Spain in the book Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World by Nicholas Ostler.. AnonMoos (talk) 02:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The elite Visigothic language was Gothic. Changes must have occured during the two centuries of Visigothic rule in Hispania.--Wetman (talk) 18:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Depression?

Are we currently in a depression? If not, how much worse do things have to get before we start calling this recession a depression? Also, what would make it another "great" depression? Cousert (talk)

I'm not sure whom you mean by "we", but in the US, we're not in a depression because the government refuses to say we are. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 02:01, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no agreed-upon definition of a depression, other than that it is an economic downturn more severe than a recession. One rule of thumb is that a depression reflects a reduction of at least 10% in gross domestic product. In most countries, the current downturn, although the most severe since the Great Depression, falls well short of that standard. In the United States, the Great Depression resulted in a 33% reduction in GDP, so that's the kind of downturn that would be needed for this to be called the Second Great Depression. John M Baker (talk) 02:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The definition I heard (which is apparently incorrect; hey, I heard it in a tabloid newspaper) is that the GDP falls for four quarters in succession. Recession is two quarters. Vimescarrot (talk) 09:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The formal definition of a recession is a two consecutive quarter decline in real GDP. There is no formal definition of a depression. Wikiant (talk) 11:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

That appears to be correct. This Google search might give you a few ideas to play with, though. One of the hits returns a "definition" from the respected journal The Economist giving the rather vague "a bad, depressingly prolonged recession in economic activity." --bodnotbod (talk) 13:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no 'we'. Are you depressed? Then you're in a depression.

Seriously though, when all joy and spontaneity has disappeared from a person's life, they will seek wealth as a sign that all is well in the world. In an economic downturn like what happened last September, all these joyless automatons have their worldview challenged. They call it depression. The reality is that their souls are in anguish. Their economic reality is largely unchanged. So long as people get enough to eat (they do) and have a warm bed to sleep in (they usually do), everything else is trivial and inconsequential. Vranak (talk) 16:20, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The Republicans perceive correctly that their only hopes of gaining in the next round of elections are through a public sense of worsening economic slump and other fear-driven voting patterns: it is with this sense that their leaders express "concerns" that Obama's administration will "fail".--Wetman (talk) 18:28, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

what troops were at the battle of the wilderness

does anyone know??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iluvgofishband (talk • contribs) 03:07, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

See Battle of the Wilderness. Algebraist 03:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Also Wilderness Confederate order of battle and Wilderness Union order of battle --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

That's if the question is about the Battle of the Wilderness in the American Civil War. For the French and Indian War battle sometimes known as the Battle of the Wilderness, see Battle of the Monongahela. —Kevin Myers 15:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Maoist opposition within the Soviet bloc

Are there any examples of parties or individuals within the Soviet bloc who sided with the Maoists in the Sino-soviet split? --Gary123 (talk) 05:34, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Enver Hoxha, I believe. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there were several (although not all could necessarily be identified as Maoist). There were pro-Maoist/anti-Revisionist groups amongst Soviet students, but it seems they didn't make any formal organization. There's an article on Soviet Revolutionary Communists (Bolsheviks), but its possible that that group was an Albanian propaganda hoax. It was rumoured that Molotov worked behind the scenes for the anti-revisionist opposition. In Poland, there was Kazimierz Mijal and Communist Party of Poland (Mijal). In East Germany there was the Communist Party of Germany/Marxists-Leninists, German wikipedia writes "Als einzige K-Gruppe verfügte die KPD/ML seit Mitte der 1970er Jahre auch über einen Ableger in der DDR, dieser wurde größtenteils Anfang der 1980er Jahre vom MfS zerschlagen. Das Organ der DDR-Sektion hieß Roter Blitz. Vorläufer Anfang der 80er Jahre war der "Rote Morgen - Ausgabe der Sektion DDR". Die Magdeburger Ortsgruppe reorganisierte sich nach der Wende 1989." At one point the KPD/ML was the sole organized opposition parties in the GDR. --Soman (talk)

See [2], [3], [4], [5], etc. on KPD/ML in GDR. --Soman (talk)

I bit separate from the query perhaps, but the People's Republic of Kampuchea was part of the Soviet bloc in the 1980s, and the Party of Democratic Kampuchea (i.e. Khmer Rouge) was a pro-China opposition group. Both the Korean and Vietnamese communist parties had ambivalent positions at the time of the Sino-Soviet split, but both ended up remaining in the Soviet bloc. --Soman (talk)

Another incident, preceding the Sino-Soviet split, but related to the political changes after the 20th CPSU congress, were the conflicts amongst Greek communists exiled in Tashkent. see http://anasintaxi-en.blogspot.com/2007/08/50-years-since-massive-rebellion-of.html and http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv14n2/greek.htm . --Soman (talk)

AFAIK Romania was tilted more towards China as towards the USSR. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 18:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Romania is a bit of a complicated case. Romania did pronounce a certain degree of independence against USSR, and did borrow some inspiration from Asian socialist countries. For example, Romania did not send troops to crush the Prague spring. But its also important to state that Romania never broke with the Soviet bloc. --Soman (talk) 20:26, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

US states :geographical oddities..?

Once, early in my use of WK, I think I stumbled on a page that listed certain "trivia" statistics about the US States' relationship to each other, eg " State that borders most other states" etc. But after many attempts to find again, I remain defeated ! I have seen "US border anomalies" but this was something else..Can anyone pont me in the right direction ? Feroshki (talk) 08:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Such a list of trivia does not seem that encyclopedic, so it might have been gone AFD. Googlemeister (talk) 14:29, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikianswers says that Tennessee and Missouri both border eight states. Tennessee: Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, and Missouri. Missouri: Iowa, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. See also Four Corners.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:06, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The Pope

Is there any mechanism of removing the pope from office besides his death? Can he be voted out by the cardinals? Can he voluntarily resign? Googlemeister (talk) 14:28, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

We have an article papal resignation. Algebraist 14:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

OK thanks. So it appears he can resign, but no one else can force him out of the papacy without actually killing him. Googlemeister (talk) 14:46, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

How many times in history have a group of Cardinals or some King or Emperor and some cardinals just gone ahead and elected a replacement Pope, without killing the incumbent or getting a resignation? Regardless of whether later historians considered the rump Pope the "real" one, didn't he have temporal power and weren't rites he performed recognized as legitimate, such as marriages, ordinations as priest or as bishop? In the 11th century there were three "Popes" at the same time and all three were deposed by an Emperor,Henry III, Holy Roman Emperor for instance. Did he technically get resignations, by making them an offer they couldn't refuse (either your signature or your brains will be on that resignation document in one minute) or did he just issue an "Edict of Papal Deposition?" Some irregularity in the selection of a Pope (purchasing the office, in the 11th century) might have been used to argue that he was "never legitimately Pope." But then wouldn't someone have to follw up and re-make the bishops he made, so that the priests they made would be recognized? Edison (talk) 15:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There is a complete list at Antipope. TomorrowTime (talk) 15:38, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Were their edits and such considered legitimate? Often the Popes would excommunicate each other and such. Very confusing how to deal with that if you were a (honest) bishop I am sure. Googlemeister (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The last time there was any significant popular support for a rival pope was a long time ago. I think it's safe to say it's just not going to happen these days, and the Pulvermachers of the world can go hell for leather but they are simply never going to be recognised. And without that recognition, nothing they do or say will ever be considered legitimate. (Btw, popes probably don't make "edits"; they're too busy reading our articles to get around to improving them. :)

I remember during the last couple of years of John Paul II's reign, when he was infirm (to put it mildly), people saying "He can't function any more; they'll obviously get rid of him". But who were "they"? I can imagine cardinals bringing pressure to bear on a pope to abdicate, but they can't force him to do so. Short of murder (papicide I now discover the word is "papacide"), it's not possible to get rid of a pope. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:20, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There are certainly Pope John Paul I conspiracy theories regarding the death of John Paul II's immediate predecessor, who died unexpectedly after only a month or so in office. We also have a List of murdered Popes. 70.90.174.101 (talk) 04:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

While it may not answer the question, the Cadaver Synod article may be of interest to the OP. Dismas|^(talk) 20:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps a little something extra in the nighty-night cocoa, as in one movie? Edison (talk) 04:23, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Architectural style of house

What is the architectural style of the Hugh T. Rinehart House (built in 1861 in Auglaize County, Ohio), pictured here? I'm really not good at identifying styles, and (unlike many houses on the NRHP) this one doesn't have a style indicated in the NRHP database. Other images are available at Commons:Category:Hugh T. Rinehart House. Nyttend (talk) 17:44, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The seeming problem is the result of our American habit of inflating all buildings to the status of "architecture". "Bungalow" was not yet a term used in Ohio. Why is this not simply a vernacular cottage? BtW, the NRHP database, followed blindly at Wikipedia as it must be, credits as "Greek Revival" all houses built c. 1820-1840, it seems, whether or not they have perceptibly "Grecian" details. This cottage shows that not everything built in 1861 was "Victorian architecture".--Wetman (talk) 18:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, I would call that style Haitian Shanty, but to each his own. Googlemeister (talk) 20:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Greek revival seems fair. The column capitals appear to be of the Doric order. The house has likely been altered over the years, and an early drawing or photo would be useful in determining what it started as.

Another photo is available at this Ohio Historical Society webpage. Don't know the date for it, however. Nyttend (talk) 20:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Eclecticism or historicism? --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Despite the materials being all wrong, it has a bit of a (probably unintentional) Japanese look to it. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I read this last comment and laughed: not because it was silly, but because it's something I never would have thought of :-) Rather ironic, one of the reasons that this house is recognised as historic is its architecture, but no style is defined. "Vernacular architecture" seems quite appropriate; I'm going to categorise the images that way. Nyttend (talk) 03:42, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I got the same impression when I first saw the photo :) I guess it's the way the roof curves that seems vaguely Japanese. TomorrowTime (talk) 06:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Accidental deaths in the US military

I've been reading a US book which says that over a thousand US military personnel get killed every year in military accidents (not during combat) and that at least 200 commit suicide every year. Is that true? 78.147.128.100 (talk) 22:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a source, but that sound very credible. It's a big military, they do a lot of stuff, and health-and-safety guys with clipboards are much less prevalent in military settings than ordinary civilian life. A remarkable number of deaths in warzones like Afghanistan are due to car accidents and helicopter crashes. Planes crash, humvees don't have crumple-zones (heck, do they even have seatbelts?), and much time is spent firing live ammo. People die of heatstroke or exposure, or are run over by landrovers or fall off cliffs. Worse, if you shoot yourself in the brain with M-16 you thought was empty but wasn't, you don't get a purple heart, even if you were trying to unjam it when under fire in Helmand. -- Finlay McWalter Talk 22:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

This where "not during combat" means "not as a result of enemy action", not "not in a combat zone". -- Finlay McWalter Talk 22:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The official US Army site says that "accidental, non-combat deaths" peaked in 2005 at 299. MSNBC reported (in 2006) that suicides rose in 2005 to 83. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:16, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Those numbers (cited by Clarityfiend) are just for the active duty US Army, and not the US military overall.

Unless my math is off, about 1,000 accidental deaths per year in a military of about 3 million people is about the same rate as civilian accidental deaths in the US (about 100,000 deaths per 300 million people per year). And I think the military suicide rate appears to be lower than the civilian rate. —Kevin Myers 23:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There was a news report recently about the rise in the murder rate of spouses by active duty military personal returning from the Middle East. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

July 25

Royal persons in concentration camps

Does anybody know any royalties that were sent to concentration camps during World War II? I know there was Princess Mafalda of Savoy, who died in one--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 02:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you talking about royal persons, or about money? A human being, no matter how lofty, is not referred to as a "royalty". -- JackofOz (talk) 03:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

It's obvious what they are trying to say, and there's no need for your arrogance. You could have pointed out that "royalty" is a collective term for royal people.

Dachau_concentration_camp#Royalty. You could also look through Category:Nazi concentration camps and look for any more.83.100.250.79 (talk) 17:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Jack was not being arrogant. You could say he was being pedantic. We both work on the Language Desk and tend to pick up a lot on people's misusages of words - that is our job. However, Jack was wrong, because we CAN say that Queen Elizabeth is royalty, but I think the point he was trying to make is that we can't say that Queen Elizabeth and the rest of her family are 'royalties', as this only means 'money', in English. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 03:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

No, he was being an arrogant smartass. It annoys me when we nitpick obvious mistakes (unless we do so after answering the question, in which it's OK to whale on the questioner, a la Cecil Adams.) I have been guilty of this myself at times, I hasten to add. Tempshill (talk) 05:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Arrogant? I don't believe so, but people can make up their own minds. Smartass? Maybe. But pedantic? Definitely not. Imagine a question such as "Do any schools weigh more than 100 tonnes?" - which turned out to be about the weight of individual whales. Using a collective term to refer to individual members of a group is what I'd call egregious (particularly from one who claims a close association with QEII), and drawing attention to it, in a constructive way, as I believe I did, is a service that I don't expect any kind of recognition for, but certainly not criticism. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:23, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

This is stupid. Why are you arguing about this? I don't care I just want someone to answer the question. --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 07:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, including nobles & aristocrats as well as royals:

• Auchwitz

• Henriette Mendelssohn (wife of Emmanuel Simon André Marie de Crussol d’Uzes, Marquis de Crussol)

• Leau bei Bernberg

• Sumner Kirby

• Buchenwald

• Almaric Lombard de Buffières de Rambuteau
• Mafalda of Italy

• Dachau

• François de Gramont (died in transport)
• Antonia, Crown Princess of Bavaria
• Albrecht, Duke of Bavaria
• Franz, Duke of Bavaria
• Prince Max, Duke in Bavaria
• Philipp, Landgrave of Hesse
• Franz Wittelsbach, Prinz von Bayern
• Maximilian, Duke of Hohenberg
• Prince Ernst von Hohenberg
• Princess Sophie of Hohenberg
• Prince Xavier de Bourbon-Parma

• Flossenbürg

• Bernard de la Rochefoucauld

• Mauthausen

• François Marie Joseph Abel Henri Sauvage Comte de Brantes

• Neuengamme

• James van Beusekom

Oranienburg

• Pierre d’Alcantara de Querrieu

• Ravensbrück

• Anne de Bauffremont-Courtenay
• Elizabeth Pelletier de Chambure, wife of Philippe de Rothschild

• misc.

• Philip von Hessen: briefly interned after informing Hitler of Italy’s inability to continue fighting
• The wife (Antonia von Luxembourg) and children of Rupert von Wittlesbach were interned in various camps including Oranienburg, Flossenburg and Dachau in 1944.
• Michael I of Montenegro (survived)
• Liliane (Nahmias) Haflin, mother of Diane von Fürstenburg (lived)
• Prince Charles de Rohan (1894-1965) and his son Prince Charles de Rohan (1924-2005) interned in various camps (lived)
• Antal Szapáry de Muraszombath (1905-1972) interned for activities with the Hungarian Red Cross and his relief work for Polish and Jewish refugees. He was released through the intervention of King Gustav V of Sweden
• Fritz Thyssen an early Nazi sympathizer who was later interned by the Nazis (His autobiography was titled "I Paid Hitler", he is father of Anita Countess Zichy-Thyssen, and uncle of Margit Gabriella Lujza Thyssen-Bornemisza de Kászon, the "Killer Countess")
• Rupert von Wittlesbach, his wife, and his children were interned in several camps.

- Nunh-huh 08:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't find reliable sources online now, but I have a vague memory of a photograph of Janusz Kwiek, who had been crowned king of Polish Gypsies in 1937 (see picture of his enthronement), taken in a concentration camp, probably Auschwitz. I found one online mention that in 1949, King Kwiek made a pilgrimage to thank Virgin Mary for saving him and other Gypsies from death in a camp, so apparently, he survived. — Kpalion^(talk) 12:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Obama's citizenship and presidency(a "what if")

Let's say that the "birthers" are right and it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Obama really isn't an American citizen. If this was the case(as I don't believe it to be), I assume his presidency would somehow be declared null and void. However, how might this be handled? Would Obama just have to step down, and Biden take over? Or would there be a special election called? 69.224.113.202 (talk) 03:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

He would not be the first president whose birthplace was seriously questioned, even during his presidency. See Chester A. Arthur. In fact, the Arthur situation is almost 100% identical to the Obama situation. His mother was clearly an American citizen, but his father was not (He was Irish and not a citizen); and though his official birthplace is listed as Vermont, many have speculated that he was born in Canada and his family moved to Vermont when he was a young child; the family HAD lived in Canada up until shortly before Arthur's birth. His political enemies even hired lawyers and invesitgators to research where he was born, to disqualify him from the Presidency. So we have the following parallels:

• Chester Arthur: Mother a U.S. Citizen, Father not one, family had lived in a foreign country for a time, family moved around a lot anyways. Political opponents tried to prove he was not born in the U.S. to prove he was ineligible for the presidency, even though his mother WAS a citizen, which should confer natural born rights to him.
• Barack Obama: Mother a U.S. Citizen, Father not one, family had lived in a foreign country for a time, family moved around a lot anyways. Political opponents tried to prove he was not born in the U.S. to prove he was ineligible for the presidency, even though his mother WAS a citizen, which should confer natural born rights to him.

It is quite true that those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it, and we clearly have a near perfect repeat here. Unfortunately for us, Arthur was one of our most forgetable presidents. --Jayron32 03:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Just remember to ask the "birthers" this question: which person was not born in the United States A)Barack Obama B)John McCain? Because one of them wasn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.49.48.124 (talk) 04:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Depending on how your perception of The Truth is, it's either B alone OR A and B. While the so-called "birthers" claim that we have no good proof that Obama WAS born in the U.S., we have definitive proof that McCain was NOT. --Jayron32 04:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I was under the impression that one need not actually be born in the US to qualify, as long as at least one of one's parents was a U.S. citizen at the time. If that's the case, it doesn't seem to matter where they were born, so what's all the fuss about? -- JackofOz (talk) 05:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The fuss is that, when Obama was elected president, those that opposed him started to grasp at straws for anything at all that could somehow make his win illegitimate. There is nothing more to it than that. Indeed, the phrase "natural born" is not clear; it could mean that one is required to be born on U.S. soil OR to U.S. citizens OR some combination thereof. It is not clear in the original text of the constitution. The Chester A. Arthur article I cite above does itself cite some legal opinions over the matter. My understanding is that the prevailing legal view at the time of Arthur was that a parent who was a citizen transfered "natural born" status to their children; which would have made the actual location of his Birth moot. However, since the U.S. is a case law country, the matter is literally undecided until a court decides it, and as such, no court has ever acted on a case of this magnitude. However, since OFFICIALLY, both Obama and Arthur before him were born on U.S. soil (whether the actually were is open to debate by some) there has never been a serious legal challenge. If we ever had a case where there was a candidate who was born on foreign soil to one U.S. citizen and one non-citizen, it may make a test case for the issue. But as yet, without that, I doubt the matter will ever be resolved by a court of law. --Jayron32 05:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

George Washington wasn't born in the United States! Adam Bishop (talk) 18:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

As you are probably aware, the constitution has a separate clause making anyone who was a citizen of the US at the time the consitution was adopted eligible to be president. Algebraist 18:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

As noted in a thread below, 1968 Republican presidential candidate George Romney was not born in the U.S., and 1964 Republican nominee Goldwater was not born in the United States, but in Arizona Territory. McCain was not born in the United States. "Natural born" has been taken to mean, by legal scholars, a citizen without being naturalized ." If Obama were born in another country to a mother who was a citizen, he would be a U.S. citizen without needing naturalization papers, so he would qualify as "naural born." The purpose of the language in the constitution was to keep a European monarch or prince from becoming President. Edison (talk) 04:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Queens consort of Mann?

Lady Margaret Beaufort was married to a king of Mann; she decked herself with titles such as "The King's Mother" and "The Countess of Derby and Richmond" and demanded queenly precedence, so she would have probably enjoyed the queenly title - but she was never referred to as queen. Did the wives of the kings of Mann use the title of queen of Mann at all? Surtsicna (talk) 10:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why, but the phrase "Queen of Mann" brings up images of this guy in my head. Never mind me, I'm just an idiot. --Jayron32 13:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

If you read the article on her, you see that her titles were as a result of her marriages, and then as a result of her son becoming king of England as a result of winning the Wars of the Roses. She would not have been referred to as "queen" because she was not married to a king of England. Of course she may have been referred to as "Queen of Mann" but I have to say I haven't heard of this style before. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I read the article about her; in fact, I am expanding it since yesterday. You do not have to be married to a king of England in order to be queen. Margaret was married to a man who styled himself King of Mann. Why didn't she style herself Queen of Mann? Did such title exist at all? Surtsicna (talk) 16:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The title "King of Mann" barely existed either - by this time it was just an honour, and her husband probably had nothing to do with Mann. He didn't style himself that way, he just happened to have the title. There wouldn't be much point in calling herself "queen", and in fact the "king" title itself was dropped by her husband's successors. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

What about the wives of previous kings of Mann? Surtsicna (talk) 18:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Google books suggests that Queen of Man or Queen of Mann were used at various points. I'm not sure how reliable some of those books are though. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:01, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

3rd generation American

I remember hearing somewhere a few years back that iin order to be an American president one would need to be 3rd generation American or more. This would make sence, to not have a foreigner run your country. Now I am not American, but think that Obama is great but is there a discrepancy here or did I miss hear. Can some one illuminate this for me please? Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 15:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no such provision in the constitution, which merely requires that the president be a natural born citizen of the United States (whatever that means) as well as being at least 35 and resident in the US for 14 years. Perhaps your source meant that a person without several generations of American ancestry would have no chance of being elected, rather than actually being ineligible. Algebraist 15:47, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think all constitutional experts would agree that a person born in the United States (who meets age and residency qualifications) is eligible for the presidency, no matter where that person's parents were born. The only thing unresolved about the "natural born citizen" clause is whether it would qualify a person born outside the United States to US citizens. Since Obama was born inside the United States (in Hawaii), he qualifies for the presidency under the universally accepted meaning of that clause. Whoever told you that a president has to have had ancestors or even parents who were born citizens was wrong. Obama proves that. Incidentally, most US citizens would not consider a person who was born and raised in the United States a "foreigner," so long as that person is able to speak English with an American accent. Obama speaks English with an American accent, and I think the vast majority of Americans would accept him as American, regardless of his father's origins. People in the United States are very different in this way from many Europeans. I lived in Berlin for a while, and I could not understand why a person who spoke German with a Berlin accent, who was born and raised in Berlin, and who rooted for the local football team would be considered a "foreigner" by other Germans just because his grandparents came from Turkey. Marco polo (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

"Natural born" has been taken to include all citizens who were not naturalized. Someone born to a citizen outside the U.S could be a "natural born " citizen. This could include those born to military personnel overseas, like 2008 Republican candidate McCain, persons born in U.S. territories which later became states, like 1964 Republican candidate Barry Goldwater, or even babies born overseas to U.S. citizens who were visiting another country, like George Romney, 1968 candidate for the Republican nomination. Thus it would likely include Obama even if he were born in Kenya to a mother who was a U.S. citizen. Edison (talk) 04:11, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone which was at the time US territory. Rckrone (talk) 06:25, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The Zone was an unincorporated territory, making it less part of the US than Goldwater's native Arizona, an organized incorporated territory of the United States. According to Panama Canal Zone#Citizenship, someone born in the Zone at the time McCain was would not have automatically been a US citizen, although they would become so retroactively when the law was changed a year later. Algebraist 11:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Babies born to military personnel in countries where birth conveys citizenship become dual citizens.(Thousands have been born this way on US bases in Germany, for instance). At age 18 they must make a choice to renounce one or the other, or may lose their US citizenship. There was some debate about Obama's status because of his having been an Indonesian citizen, through his step father, in childhood. -KoolerStill (talk) 16:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Lost time according to Joshua 10:12-14

Can it be determined by current methods if a day has been lost according to the KJV Bible, Joshua 10:12-14? Has anyone tried to prove one way or the other it's validity? Thank you, Dave —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.179.143.81 (talk) 16:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

See Julian Calendar - in the British Empire it went from Wednesday 2 September 1752 to Thursday 14 September 1752. Not sure if that sort of thing is what you mean? As it stands actual 'days' are a social-construct so we can 'lose' one by making changes like shown in the julian calendar article. As for a day occuring but the whole world 'losing' it in some sort of biblical style way then no, that's just bible-talk. ny156uk (talk) 17:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

You can be guaranteed that anything in the Bible can be "proved" by someone, somewhere. Here is one for Joshua's day. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

But as a practical matter? No, you can't tell. If you had precise astronomic information that predated Joshua (if, for instance, Moses recorded a given eclipse with a precise UTC timestamp), you could extrapolate extra Joshua-era hours. However, no such data exists (no such data can exist), and so we can't. — Lomn 21:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There was a famous hoax, in the 1960's that a NASA observatory or radio telescope had somehow determined that the exact amount of time suggested by the Joshua passage was missing from history. No explanation was given of how such a measurement could, even in theory, be made. It was just a pious lie, told in an attempt to fool people into believing the Bible was a work of history and science. Edison (talk) 03:57, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Let me ask another question: is it possible to prove that 4 billion years ago, a dinosaur flashed in and out of existence in one Planck second? No, it isn't, because I just made that up. Made-up things with no basis in theory, experiment, or observation are hard to disprove unless you use common sense. In this case, since the Bible flatly contradicts almost all of science, history, and anthropology, common sense says a day wasn't lost. --Bowlhover (talk) 16:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Russell's Teapot has not been proven or disproven, either. --Sean 13:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Flevoland

I have several questions about Flevoland that our article doesn't answer (or doesn't answer well). Flevoland appears to be in three bits Nordostpolder, Eastern flevoland and southern flevoland. Nordostpolder is the island to the top right in the map image. Presummably the other two areas form the other larger southern island. Is that the case? Why are they named separately? Where is the border between them? Then there is the history. Our pages flevoland and zuiderzee and the offical http://provincie.flevoland.nl/welcome_in_flevoland/about_flevoland/history_of/ skimp on details. In particular, when (year? or full date?) was it decided to create these islands? When did construction of the islands start (presumably building the walls and draining the middles)? When was the island construction deemd 'complete'? If that is too ambiguous to answer, when did the first dwelling get built/inhabited? And lastly how was the remains of the salt from the salt water sea managed - didn't it leave the ground 'toxic'? -- SGBailey (talk) 22:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I admit I haven't read it, but the article Zuiderzee_Works should have a lot of information regarding your questions. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The Flevoland article does say that the southeast part was drained in 1957 and the southwest in 1968. For the Noordoostpolder, the linked articlde Schokland says it was completed in 1942. Page 44 of this book, The European Culture Area: A Systematic Geography[6], mentions that experiments in the Wieringer Polder (the first section of the Zuider Zee to be drained, but part of North Holland province, not Flevoland) were done in the 1930's to determine the best succession of crops to remove the salt. Rmhermen (talk) 15:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

July 26

Another American political what-if: former two-term presidents as vice-presidential candidates

Would a person who has served two terms as President be allowed to run for Vice President under the United States Constitution? If so, and that ticket got elected, what would be done if the President became unable to serve, and consequently, the former President stepped up for what was effectively a third term? 69.224.113.202 (talk) 15:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

See our article: Vice President of the United States#Eligibility. Rmhermen (talk) 15:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Chinese takeaway duck

When you order duck in a Chinese restaurant, what species of duck are you getting? One Googled source suggests Mandarin Duck but their edibility or otherwise is not mentioned in the article.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Any species of duck is okay as long as they aren't serving Rattus rattus. But to seriously reply to your question, Duck mentions "All domestic ducks are descended from the wild Mallard Anas platyrhynchos, except the Muscovy Duck [7]." It is likely that most duck served in any restaurant are domestic ducks raised for slaughter.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.32.118.182 (talk) 17:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

In the UK it's likely to be either Aylesbury Duck or Gressingham Duck. These are both species specially bred for their meat.--TammyMoet (talk) 09:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Question related to Satyr

What is the "'shaggy demon of the mountain-pass' (أزب الاكب) of old Arab legend" referred to in that article? I don't know how to properly transliterate the Arabic, it's something like Azb Al-Akb (missing vowels). Шизомби (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

It looks like that that passage was taken from the 1911 Britannica, and a later editor replaced the transliterations in the original with Hebrew and Arabic letters. The original from the Britannica is as follows:

In the Authorized Version of Isa. xiii. 21, xxxiv. 14 the word "satyr" is used to render the Hebrew sĕ‛īrīm, "hairy ones." A kind of demon or supernatural being known to Hebrew folk-lore as inhabiting waste places is meant; a practice of sacrificing to the sĕ‛īrīm is alluded to in Lev. xvii. 7, where E. V. has "devils." They correspond to the "shaggy demon of the mountain-pass" (azabb al-‛akaba) of old Arab superstition.

I don't know about the Hebrew, but from Googling I think what is meant for the Arabic is ازب العقبة azabb al-‛aqabah. I will make some fixes to the article there. --Cam (talk) 23:35, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm still curious where then the EB got the "shaggy demon" from, should someone be able to determine that. Шизомби (talk) 23:53, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Well it seems that is exactly what it translates as, azabb meaning hairy and al-‛aqabah means mountain pass. Also hairy seems to have meant a devil, or the devil, or any kind of demon. It only corresponds to though: hairy mountain creatures, they're a little like greek satyrs, which christians depicted as devils, it's comparative mythology! meltBanana 01:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Groovy! Although I was wondering more where stories about it can be found, but it's nice to know what it literally means. Шизомби (talk) 02:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Ancestry, nationality, ethnicity, etc

This is partially about WP but not really about editing, so that's why I'm posting here instead of the help desk...

What is it with the nationalities of people from the UK who have articles here? It seems that every UK bio article has to go through some sort of thing like this:

• He's English.
  • No! He's Scottish but from England.
    • No!! He's English!!
      • You're both wrong, he's British!!!

The article for Ray Park has been going through a bit of this in the past and I really don't get it. Dismas|^(talk) 21:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

People from nations that are frequently invaded or conquered seem to be a lot more crazily nationalistic. The English/Scottish/Irish edit wars are pretty tame, I think. Try figuring out if someone was, say, Serbian or Croatian, especially if they from a time period where that whole area was owned by Hungary. And what about Albanians, Macedonians, and Greeks? Those arguments can extend into prehistory, it's pretty ridiculous. I guess people with national inferiority complexes find Wikipedia a handy outlet to voice their pride. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit conflict: :Because the unity of the United Kingdom is a politically contentious issue. Plaid Cymru is a Welsh independence party, and the Scottish Nationalist Party dominate the coalition government there. Other parties (especially the Conservatives) are pro-British unity, and will probably oppose a referendum in Scotland on the issue. Gordon Brown found his background to be a minor issue prior to his appointment as UK Prime Minister. He has a constituency in Scotland, and degrees from Glasgow and Edinburgh. Traditionally, UK Prime Ministers have constituencies in England, and an Oxford/Cambridge education - the elite universities there. Scotland was an independent country, in personal union (shared the same monarch) with England before the Act of Union, 1708. I think. The situation can be complicated even more by the situation in Northern Ireland, where many Nationalist citizens will reject the legitimacy of the state, and the understandable confusion foreigners seem to share of the constitutional structure. One US radio presenter referred to Jacqui Smith as the "Home Secretary of England," as opposed to the UK. There is, in fact, no such devolved government of England, as there is in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. (See the West Lothian Question.) Unlike the USA, the structure of government seems to be rather more asymmetric. In the US, no major political force represents a state as its main interest.78.146.34.231 (talk) 22:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

What is clear is this: there would be quite a bit more encyclopedia here if we all just got on with the job, rather than arguing over it.78.146.34.231 (talk) 22:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Tempshill (talk) 22:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with the motives described above, certainly in the case of Ray Park. If someone goes to a different country where there is citisenship it is easy to give their nationality; someone born in England working in the USA on a visa is certainly British and have a passport to prove it. If they take up US citisenship then they become an English-born American. The problem is that England, Scotland, Wales and Norther Ireland do not have individual citizenships or passports. It is not always clear if someone is an "English living in Scotland" or an English-born Scot. You would often go with the way they identify themselves, whether the move is intended to be permanent, or if they moved at a young age. None of these are clear-cut and subject to dispute. -- Q Chris (talk) 07:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Have you seen Wikipedia:LAME#Ethnic_and_national_feuds? It's by no means limited to the UK. Plus, I dare you to describe George W Bush as a Connecticuter in his article. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Although that's pretty much how Kent Hance portrayed (and defeated) Bush in his bid for the House of Representatives in 1973. I've heard, in fact, that he went so far as to call him a carpet bagger. TastyCakes (talk) 17:24, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Particular style of cross

Hello! I've seen this particular type of cross (exemplified by the crest of Perth College, Western Australia) in a number of different coats of arms and things, and was wondering if it had a particular name or association with any specific theological concept/order. It seems to be favoured by Anglican institutions? Thanks. AustralianMelodrama (talk) 23:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Ignoring the decoration in the centre & concentrating on the flared ends, it is a Cross moline. The cross article provides names for a whole range of fancy crosses, in its As emblems and symbols section. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

A lot of the heraldic cross variations (as opposed to cross variations associated with different religious groups) do not really have any very specific "meaning" as such. However, they do all have names (sometimes multiple alternative names). AnonMoos (talk) 07:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

July 27

What is chattel slavery?

Searching for "chattel slavery" displays the article on slavery, but that article doesn't explain what it is (or was). Mary Moor (talk) 03:27, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

From iAbolish: ::"CHATTEL SLAVERY is closest to the slavery that prevailed in early American history. Chattel slaves are considered their masters’ property — exchanged for things like trucks or money and expected to perform labor and sexual favors. Once of age, their children are expected to do the same. Chattel slavery is typically racially-based; in the North African country of Mauritania, for example, black Africans serve the lighter-skinned Arab-Berber communities. Though slavery was legally abolished there in 1980, today 90,000 slaves continue to serve the Muslim Berber ruling class. Similarly, in the African country of Sudan, Arab northerners are known to raid the villages in the South — killing all the men and taking the women and children to be auctioned off and sold into slavery."

Exploding Boy (talk) 03:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that was a quick answer! Thank you! Mary Moor (talk) 04:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

It's related to the word "cattle", which are likewise property. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Mary -- in many historical civilizations (including the Israelites of the Old Testament etc.), slavery often had a number of specific restrictions, such as that marriages and family relationships of slaves were officially recognized, the "owner" could be forbidden to sell slaves in many cases, etc. Chattel slavery basically means slavery without any such restrictions... AnonMoos (talk) 07:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Word for secret, hidden and/or fictional books?

Hey guys -- been kind of away for a while, what with the summer and all. Alas, my absence must come to an end, because work beckons. And speaking of which, I find myself stumped: there's a word for secret or hidden books and their study, ones that may not (and, in fact, most often don't) actually exist. Obviously, it's crypto-something, but for the life of me, I can't remember what it is, and Google is kind of useless in that the search words I can think of only spit out stuff related to cryptography, which isn't useful right now. "Cryptobibliology" comes to mind, but that's not it. It's not necessarily a real word (in the sense that such a field actually exists), or a well-established one, but it is kinda cool. And I need it. I need it like a drowning man needs air. (Does that make this a request for medical advice? Crap.) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Well the books themselves may be apocrypha, which is how the books which do not form part of the accepted canon of the Bible are described.--TammyMoet (talk) 09:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Good word. But not what I'm looking for, I'm afraid. =) This is the kind of a word that has been used when discussing works like the Necronomicon or De Vermis Mysteriis, but it could also be applied to other books that no one really knows about, and which typically contain all sorts of secret and/or forbidden knowledge. The Necronomicon is, of course, almost ridiculously well-known today, since it appears everywhere -- but it's not famous in the context of the stories. Generally, it's considered to be a hoax or a myth, sought after by people interested in [and here's the word I'm missing]. I mean, this would be the literary equivalent of cryptozoology. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Esoterica? 152.16.16.75 (talk) 09:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I could go with esoterica, if push comes to a shove. But it's not really what I'm looking for, either. This is a more specific term than that. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

There is the term grimoire, but that does not imply a fictive / fictional volume, it simply denotes an ancient treatise on magic. --62.47.130.62 (talk) 10:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC) Ooops, --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

After a bit of googling, the only term I found that might fit the bill is crypto-phenomenology, but that word applies more to a body of knowledge than to books, themselves. 152.16.16.75 (talk) 10:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Would they be Pseudepigraphs? So Pseudepigraphology? - KoolerStill (talk) 17:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Soviet ambassador to the Ivory Coast?

Anyone knows were to find names of Soviet ambassadors to Ivory Coast/Côte d'Ivoire? --Soman (talk) 11:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

There are no Soviet ambassadors anywhere, because there's no Soviet Union -- hasn't been since 1991. Do you mean the current Russian ambassador? That would be Oleg Kovalchuk Vladimirovich, I believe. (Apparently, he also serves as the ambassador to Burkina Faso.) If you are trying to find out who was the ambassador during the Soviet era, that might take quite a bit more digging. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 14:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The query was about past Soviet ambassadors to Côte d'Ivoire. I found a site now at http://whp057.narod.ru/rossi-m8.htm, not sure if its really WP:RS. --Soman (talk) 14:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Eligibility for President

Following the answers to 3rd generation American section I understand that to be eligible to be POTUS someone must be natural born American, over 35 years in age and have been resident in the USA for 14 years.

Does the 14 years residency need to be the 14 years before the election or could someone born in America and resident for 14 years at any time in their life be president? If it is at any time in their life, would someone born before 1955 in Rio Rico, Tamaulipas and having lived there all their life be eligible to be the president of the United States? (the aforementioned city was officially ceded to Mexico from the USA in 1970) -- Q Chris (talk) 11:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

There's no dispute that your Rio Rico native would be eligible if s/he were to move into what is currently US territory and run for president 14 years later, but I don't think it's likely that s/he would be eligible at the moment. I'm not a legal scholar, but I believe that the section means "resident for the last fourteen years". If you look at the qualifications for members of Congress, you'll see that they're required to have been U.S. citizens for a specified number of years (despite not being required to be US-born) and currently residents of the state from which they're chosen. Given the citizenship and residency requirements, I'm quite confident that this means "citizens for the last ____ years". If this is so, there's no reason to read a different meaning into the presidential qualifications. Moreover, I can't imagine the statesmen of the 1780s saying that someone who had lived all of his life abroad, aside from his childhood, would be qualified to be President. Nyttend (talk) 12:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The text in question says:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

So it's not explicit that they mean the last 14 years (which I'd assumed). --Sean 13:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

It'd be pretty stupid if they did mean the last 14 years. There are all sorts of diplomatic and military jobs that would constitute very useful work experience for the president, but which require people to live abroad. I think the idea here is simply to exclude from the presidency people who may be American citizens but who have never lived in the country and therefore (presumably) have no deep ties to it. As a point of interest, George Bush ran for president in 1980, and he'd just a few years earlier spent 14 months in China, for example. He lost the primary to Reagan, but clearly there was no question of whether he would be eligible for the job -- he ended up being Reagan's vice president, and obviously could've ended up being the president at any time, if something had happened to Reagan. (I suppose it could be argued that Bush wasn't really a "resident" of China, but he was the American ambassador there in all but name -- it's not as if he commuted to work every day...) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 14:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The official annotated constitution doesn't mention this issue. Algebraist 13:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

"and been fourteen Years a Resident" isn't a sentence structure we use these days, so it is a little difficult to interpret. We need someone that is familiar with English as it was spoken at the time. Perhaps the Language Desk could help? --Tango (talk) 13:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

That sort of analysis is just what a court will do when a case about this eventually comes up, but the court will also refer to the contemporary record (including writings like the Federalist Papers) to determine what was intended; a parsing of the language will occur in the court's reasoning, but that will not be the only factor. See Scalia's dissection of the phrase "keep and bear arms" in District of Columbia v. Heller last year. To answer the OP's question, the phrase is indeed a little vague and it will be up to a court to decide, some (controversial) day. Tempshill (talk) 16:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Being resident and living somewhere are two different things. The person serving in diplomatic or military service overseas does not become a "resident" of that country in a legal sense; in fact often where they live and work is officially the territory of their home nation. Working and living overseas in a private capacity may be different, as many countries require foreigners to apply and pass criteria for residency to be allowed to work there; tourists are not allowed to work. Beyond this it's starting to slip into giving legal advice which I am not qualified to give. - KoolerStill (talk) 17:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Battle of Seccaium

Has anyone ever heard of the "Battle of Seccaium"? This website speaks of such a conflict, which supposedly took place in southern Crawford County, Ohio, as being "technically and truly" the last battle of the American Revolution. I'm wondering if it might refer to the Crawford expedition, but searching Google yields so few results that I'm quite clueless. Nyttend (talk) 12:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

According to this (second paragraph), it's the Battle of the Olentangy that some consider the last battle of the Revolution. Perhaps the author of the page you cite confused the monument for that battle with the nearby one marking the site of the Indian village of Seccaium. (There's a photo of the inscription on the Olentangy monument near the bottom of this page.) Deor (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Your instincts are right: it's referring to the Crawford expedition. The monument shown in the picture is for the Battle of the Olentangy, which is near a historical marker for the old Native village of Seccaium. (Page through the markers here.) Someone combined the two and came up with the "Battle of Seccaium", which is misleading since Seccaium was apparently long gone by the time of the battle. And of course the Battle of the Olentangy was not "technically and truly" the last battle of the American Revolution, since the Battle of Blue Licks came later, among others. —Kevin Myers 14:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus

In the article it says: Tiberius Gracchus' greatest military victory came in Greece during the war with the plebians. Where in Greece? What war? What military victory?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 15:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

That was part of this edit, which I've just reverted. I'm not aware of any military service by the man in Greece. Deor (talk) 15:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Architecture with obvious references to science

I'm trying to think of any architecture that is relatively famous that has obvious references to science? My canonical example might be the Einstein Tower, where the form and function of the building were developed to evoke relativity theory. Any other examples though? I'm drawing kind of a blank. Any suggestions would be appreciated. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 17:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Wardenclyffe Tower - Pepso2 (talk) 17:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Atomium 87.113.158.164 (talk) 17:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC)