Talk:Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford

Article name

The name "Frank" combined with the title looks very peculiar. If he was better known as the author "Frank Pakenham" (I'm not sure), then perhaps he should be at Frank Pakenham; if he's better known as "Lord Longford", I think he should probably have a more formal-sounding name than "Frank"! It just sounds funny... to me, anyway. -- Oliver P. 01:44 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

It gave me a bit of a jolt when I first saw it.  :) -- Zoe

Frank Pakenham

Frank Pakenham spent most of his life as just that, Frank Pakenham, during which he

• wrote, notably Peace by Ordeal, the definitive account (in everyone's eyes) of the Anglo-Irish Treaty.

• served as a minister in a British Labour government.

Late in his life, he inherited the earldom of Longford from his brother, a famous theatre manager. People of our generation would know him exclusively as Lord Longford. Earlier generations would know him as Frank Pakenham, with Lord Longford potentially referring either to the author or the threatre manager, who was famous in his own right, due to his association with the world-renouned Gate Theatre in Dublin (where Orson Welles begun his acting career).

Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford combines both his names. In contrast, Francis Pakenham would be unrecognised. His family never called him that. He never called himself that. People who have read his books would never have heard him called that.

Normally on wiki, when it comes to titles, we use a [{name} {surname}, {title}]. In most cases it is perfectly Ok to use the most technically correct version of a name. But in this case we are dealing with a published author who used and was known by the name 'Frank Pakenham'. To confuse matters more, later editions (like the one I have in front of me right now) after he inherited the earldom use the format

Lord longford
(Frank Pakenham)

But simply calling him [Frank Pakenham] or [Lord Longford] wouldn't be adequate, because each 'name' only refers to part of his career and depending on the age of the wiki user (or of the edition of his books, as a politician or a campaigner for Myra Hindley) might know him as either, or in some cases both names. So unless we set up a set of directs, for [Frank Pakenham] and [Lord Longford (the politician not the theatre manager)], in this case calling him [Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford] is the logical solution (though maybe we should create a [Lord Longford] redirect, as many people might not know that being an earl means you are called Lord).

Who said titles are easy? JtdIrL 06:24 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

PS: I almost forgot. While his books were largely published as 'Frank Pakenham', some later books, notably when he co-wrote the authorised biography of Eamon de Valera, were written as Lord Longford.

I don't agree with your reasoning, JTD. His name was Francis, and he's listed as such in dictionaries of biography. This approach seems to cut across your determined strategy of ensuring articles are labelled under the correct title. (Of course, I did start the article, so it's predictable that I would defend its title.) Deb 17:02 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

I agree that if someone is known by more than one name then all the names should be accommodated in the article, and as redirects, but I don't agree that different names should be merged together in this way. This chap was called "Frank Pakenham", and "Lord Longford", and he was also the 7th Earl of Longford. But as far as I'm aware, he's never been called " Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford", all in one go. (If he has, it's certainly not the name by which people would generally know him.) It seems a bit like calling the author of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland "Charles Carroll", or "Lewis Dodgson". ;) There are now redirects at Frank Pakenham, Francis Pakenham, Francis Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford, and just plain Lord Longford. I think the article should be moved to one of those. (Probably not Lord Longford, though - I suppose that needs to be turned into a disambiguation page at some point.) Francis Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford is my personal favourite, although if it's true that more people know him as Frank Pakenham (I don't, but I'm not familiar with his books, I'm afraid), then I suppose the rules say we should have him there. -- Oliver P. 18:37 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, and that reminds me, we never settled the "Earl Mountbatten" question, did we...? :) -- Oliver P. 18:37 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

I thought we did. We were probably just too lazy to do anything about it. Deb 19:10 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

I have seen him called Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford, but never Francis Pakenham except in they most formal registers of the sort that call Prince Harry - Prince Henry. Just as we use Prince Harry of Wales, not the strictly more accurate but unknown Prince Henry of Wales, so we should use Frank Pakenham not his official but almost totally unused name Francis. I am quite a follower of rules, but the whole point about rules is to create a uniform, logical, usable structure, that is rigid enough to create a template but capable of dealing with cases that don't fit into the rigid rules. The 'Frank Pakenham' problem is the same as that of Prince Harry. There are times where following the rules literally produces unrecognisable names; for example, if one is strictly correct, we should have a page referring to [Basil, Cardinal Hume] except that structure is rarely used and he was generally known, not strictly accurately, as Cardinal Basil Hume. And most of those formal registers that refer to Francis Pakenham also incorporate his style, referring to His Grace, something we don't do. In this case, the most commonly recognised correct name rule suggests that we should use Frank Pakenham, not Francis because in this case we are detailing not with a personal name that we are stating merely 'for the record' not because of its recognition factor but an author known to millions of history and political science students over many decades as 'Frank Pakenham' , just as millions only know Prince Henry as Prince Harry. It is the same issue. JtdIrL 20:25 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

I'll admit to never having read any of his books, or even knowing that he wrote any under the name "Frank". This particular example doesn't bother me that much, but I don't really think it's analogous to Prince Harry. From the moment Harry's name was announced, it was also announced that he would be "known as Prince Harry", even though his official name is Henry. Whereas Prince William is commonly known as Wills, but we would never dream of entitling the article "Prince Wills of Wales". (Or at least, I wouldn't!) Deb 21:14 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

The point is everyone knows Henry as Prince Harry. People know William's nickname as Wills but he is always referred to as Prince William. Ditto with Frank Pakenham. When people think of his political career, they talk about Frank Pakenham. When they refer to his early writing, they call him Frank Pakenham. We are talking about a famous author here known under two names, Frank Pakenham or Lord Longford, but never, ever as Francis. That was simply his name on his birth certificate and on formal documents and in formal sourcebooks that judge him exclusively as a peer (and which call Harry 'Prince Harry of Wales'. But we are not here simply to refer to him as a peer, we have to refer to him by his name and title; his name was Frank Pakenham, and he was the 7th Earl of Longford. He was known as both in his political and writing careers, never anything else. JtdIrL 21:31 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

And what about "Princess Di"? Deb 22:04 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

Di was a nickname but she never called herself 'Princess Di' and so isn't recorded as such. She called herself Princess Diana, Harry calls himself Prince Harry. Frank Pakenham called him . . . Frank Pakenham.

What I mean is, even if everyone called her "Princess Di" but her official title was "Diana, Princess of Wales", we would still entitle her article "Diana, Princess of Wales". Anyhow, everyone else has dropped out of the discussion and I'm happy to go along with it, so I think you can say you've won your point. Deb 22:17 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

Hey, I may be addicted to the Wikipedia, but I still have to eat and sleep! :) So just because I go away for a bit, it doesn't mean I've dropped out of the discussion... I notice that JtdIrL says, "When people think of his political career, they talk about Frank Pakenham. When they refer to his early writing, they call him Frank Pakenham." So, erm, Frank Pakenham? -- Oliver P. 14:52 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

But later on he was known as Lord Longford. So if you read some books, or some editions of books, he is called Frank Pakenham, in others he is called Lord Longford. If you refer to his political career it is Frank Pakenham, if it is following his campaign for Myra Hindley, it is as Lord Longford. If it is reading Peace by Ordeal it is as Frank Pakenham, if it is his biography of deV, it is as Lord Longford. So neither name works in isolation. Either way, you risk creating a name that a large proportion who know of the guy wouldn't recognise.

• Frank Pakenham - recognised by some
• Lord Longford - recognised by others
• Francis Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford - who?
• Frank Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford (with redirect as [Lord Longford]) the most easily recognised method. JtdIrL 19:25 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

Now here's the acid test, JTD. If his name had been David Pakenham, and his early books published under the name "Dave Pakenham", would you have been happy to see him listed as "Dave Pakenham, 7th Earl of Longford"???? Deb 20:55 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

If that was the name he was universally known as, yes, for the exact same reason as we have Prince Harry of Wales. Its his name. This isn't Burke's Peerage listing peers, it is an encyclopædia, listing people as they are known. If they are known simply as peers, then you would use standard peer nomenclature, then you would put 'Francis Pakenham', 'David Pakenham', 'Prince Henry'. But we are dealing in Pakenham's case with an author, who defined himself as an author/politician who happens coincidentially to be a peer also. JtdIrL 00:03 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)

---

Hi, I did a couple of these recently. Lord Normanby and Lord Robertson. Not exactly consistent, but they seem to be different kinds of titles. ( 22:20 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

Homophobia cat

I've removed Category:Homophobia again for three reasons:

1. He isn't homophobia
2. Homophobia isn't central to who he is or what he did. See Category talk:Homophobia for consensus on how/wen the cat should be used. There's one paragraph about a homophobic comment he made at age 92 - hardly central to who he is.
3. It isn't sourced at all. If he really is a homophobe, that's controversial and should be well sourced.

Please comment here before reverting. Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 03:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't support the category and the article should 1. have sections added and 2. fill in the context of his anti-gay campaigning. Benjiboi 15:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

There's only one paragraph detailing his homophobia, all about one remark he made in the House of Lords. Unless he made many other statements in a similar vein, which should be documented, he doesn't compare to Anita Bryant, Fred Phelps, or Eric Rudolph. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 22:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed this category now. "His high-profile opposition to the gay rights movement" should be connected with his conservative ideas. The word "homophobia" has very negative overtone and this category should be added only in undisputed cases. Andrew₁₈ ^@ 16:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

That is just your opinion I'm afraid. The Merriam-Websters Dictionary defines the word "homophobia" as meaning "fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals". When used in the case of a Wiki category, it simply relates to any article where the subject is linked to the established definition of the word. It isn't used as a condemnation, its used simply as fact. Lord Longford's very high profile political and personal beliefs about homosexuality were what he was mostly known for in later life. I do agree that this particular part of his political life needs to be expanded with some decent sources added, but there is no WP:BLP issue because he is dead. 89.168.105.226 (talk) 19:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

We should not connect his later life statements with homofobia. If you have on your mind this sentence: "On the other hand, if some elderly, or not so elderly, schoolmaster seduced one of my sons and taught him to be a homosexual, he would ruin him for life. That is the fundamental distinction." you have to know, that the meaning of word "homofobia" came later that he had said that words. Wikipedia is not to judge person for his beliefs. In category "homofobia" there is no space for interpretations. We cannot pick a hole in one's coat "homofobic" in this case. The prerequisites are'nt enough strong to do it. Andrew₁₈ ^@ 18:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, where the hell did you learn to spell? Secondly, it isn't just his comments that are at issue here, the fact is that Lord Longford had a lengthy history of voting against any kind of gay rights legislation. His comments about "some elderly schoolmaster seducing one of his sons" are really just the cherry on the cake, as it were. And you are wrong about the definition of homophobia changing since he made those comments. He said that in the late 1990s when homophobia was not a new word. It meant then what it means today. I agree that there is no space for interpretations about the homophobia category, but it appears that you are the one making your own interpretations. Homophobia refers to "fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals". Its not an interpretation, its a fact. Longford's personal and political beliefs and voting history more than meet the criteria.80.41.8.218 (talk) 03:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

If you want to put into this category every politician who "voting against any kind of gay rights legislation" you gonna pursue politics and some kind of political revenge. We dont make politic here. In my country main parties vote against any gay rights legislation. Do you think that they should be in category "homofobia"? If you want to typecasting people in this way you propably not go too far. Sorry for my spelling, I am not a native speaker. Andrew₁₈ ^@ 10:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a HUGE difference between someone who is simply not "pro-gay rights" and somebody who is "anti-gay rights". Longford falls into the latter category. He ACTIVELY campaigned against gay rights. He is certainly entitled to his opinion, but that does not stop it from being discriminatory. In the US, Anita Bryant is exactly the same. She actively campaigned against gay rights and she and her actions are widely considered to be homophobic. It is YOU who does not understand what this category is for. It's nothing to do with getting political revenge (I'm not even gay), it is to do with articles (including articles about people) who have a notable, high profile opposition to gay rights. If the government in your country do indeed vote against any kind of gay rights as you claim, then yes, it would appear that they are homophobic (homophobia means "fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals" - this is a Dictionary definition, not just my own opinion). If you click on the Homophobia category, it actually states at the top of the page what the category is used for. I would also suggest that if you do not have a good command of the English language, then you should refrain from editing the English Wikipedia.89.168.101.36 (talk) 13:46, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Please. En.Wikipedia is not only for natives speakers. I understand every word you have said. But I don't agree with you at all. First: the definition of being in opposition to "gay rights" is watered down. If someone votes against legislation of gay marriages became a homofobic? Secondly: if you are trying to force your point of view under the IP account - please stop it. In category "Homofobia" should stay only persons who continuously attacked homosexual persons because of their orientacion. You make a politic. You bring in this case into sth like that: "who is against gay rights is a homofobic". If you want to look for deputies who has voted against gay marriage (for example) you will a lot in many countries. In my country neither of party support gay marriage. Do you want to put all polish deputies into category "homofobia"? Because they are against gay marriage? Please, dont do that. Andrew₁₈ ^@ 20:01, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:The Outcast's Outcast.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 02:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Succession box

I've removed the UK life peerage from the succession box. Beside the point that it was a life peerage and therefore not succeeded to, life peerages do not appear to be enumerated in succession boxes (at least, not for Mrs. Thatcher, Lord Callaghan, Lord Williams of Mostyn, Baroness Jay, nor Denis Healey (nor Sir Alec Douglas-Home)). For fosterity:

—Dah31 (talk) 15:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Baron Pakenham was a hereditary peerage as stated in the article and not a life peerage. He wasn't an Earl at the time, and was given a peerage so he could sit in the House of Lords himself. Life peerages weren't introduced until 1958, 13 years later. He was given a life peerage in 1999 as Baron Pakenham of Cowley. That's a separate title. Baron Pakenham was inherited by his son, along with the Earldom. JRawle (Talk) 16:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Image source

An image of Lord Longford (Ekabhishek (talk) 17:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC))