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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Helpful4sure (talk | contribs) at 00:24, 19 August 2009. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

A J M Industries, LLC

A J M Industries, LLC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
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articles main claim for its subjects notability is "they have a lot of trucks" WuhWuzDat 12:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your recent help in editing this article and I apologize If I've done something to offend you in the past. This article was written, and continues to be edited, in good faith within the policies set forth by wikipedia.

The content of this article clearly meets all requirments for inclusion, falls within the scope of several wikiprojects; including New Jersey & Business, and contains content similar to hundreds of other articles that appear in the categories that this article belongs to.

I must renew my request that the "consideration for deletion" be withdrawn, and kindly ask that you re-evaluate your initial posture regarding this article.

      • Also please note that the above referenced quote "they have a lot of trucks" never appeared in the article. I request that this origional entry be withdrawn due to the fact that it is fundamentally wrong and it misrepresents the spirit of the origional text***

This article has since been re-edited to further address your concerns. --Helpful4sure (talk) 18:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Helpful4sure (talk • contribs) 18:26, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: AfD debates typically run for 7 days, and are closed by after consensus is reached. While the content of this article is not objectional, the Notability of its subject is debatable. WuhWuzDat 18:50, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment: Author is writing this article at the request of the subject's owners. WuhWuzDat 18:53, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it's contribution to the growth of the iron and steel industry. It is notable for it's role in supplying publicly owned corporations. It is notable because it has received the acclaim and approval of the United States Small Business Administration. It is notable because it is recognized regionally. It is recognized internationally. A J M is notable due to the fact that it's annual sales are over $3 Million, which in itself is notable. I would like to point out that notability is EXTREMELY subjective and merely stating that a subject is not notable does not make it so. I have been upfront and open about my relationship to the subject which is that I was casually asked in conversation to write a peice on the company because of my "perceived" writing skills. I have no conflict of interest here and also have openly invited other members to edit the article. Which they have done.--Helpful4sure (talk) 19:07, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment other editors contributions to this article, up to this point in time, consist of fixing formatting errors, removal of an inappropriate category, and placement and removal of various deletion tags. WuhWuzDat 19:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Comment: The above referenced quote suggesting my conflict of interest is in fact a misquote. The entire entry reads:I am not a stakeholder in the Company A J M Industries, LLC however I have been asked, at the request of ownership, to write an objective article about this business in Saddle Brook, NJ. The content of the article shall be neutral according to terms and referenced properly with varifiable information.

Reply, clicking on the blue text in my previous reply (timestamped 18:53) will bring up the exact quote referenced above. WuhWuzDat 22:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further Comment: This is in fact the second time text I've written has been misquoted or misrepresented as to the spirit of the comment.

Further reply, The primary assertion of notability, indeed almost 50% of the article, as it existed at the time of AfD nomination, was this companies fleet of trucks. Quotation marks have been struck out, however, I stand behind my original rationale for deletion. WuhWuzDat 22:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Further Comment: The banners I placed on the discussion page indicating that this article fell within the scope of the wikiproject New Jersey and Wikiproject Business were removed. I kindly ask that they be replaced because they are obviously relevant to this discussion. --Helpful4sure (talk) 19:29, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply, The removed "Banners" were placed on the talk page of this AfD discussion, which is not part of either of the aforementioned Wikiprojects. WuhWuzDat 22:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Does not seem to be notable, I can't find any significant third party coverage. The references given in the entry do not establish notability at all; the author does not seem to understand what a good reference looks like, even after some guidance. Hairhorn (talk) 20:40, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Previous editor's post regarding his ability to find significant coverage has been discussed on my user page. This editor appears to devalue sources that cannot be "freely" googled at no cost to the researcher. I submit that if one is truly interested in establishing the notability of the subject they would invest time and money (which I have done) and make an unbiased decision (which I have done). The third party coverage requested does in fact exist and has been referenced more substancially than many articles in the categories that this article appears in. Again, notability is NOT established in a 2 minute google search. I invite you to invest in the research, come to New Jersey, talk with residents, attend a Steel Industry convention, talk with seasoned industry professionals, as well as decision makers at publicly traded corporations, once you have done this...then your arguement whether the subject is notable or not will have some credibility. Cheers --Helpful4sure (talk) 22:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • In fact my main complaints involved manifestly unhelpful references, such as:
http://www.industrynet.com/company.asp?start=AJM
A simple listing of companies that does nothing more than establish their existence. Mere existence doesn't establish notability.
http://www.sba.gov/loans/businessdetail/output/2007/busnj.html
A page that lists many hundreds of businesses in New Jersey, listing only the name of the company, the city they're in, and how much of a loan they received. This is not ony a primary source, but also demonstrates nothing beyond the fact that this company, among hundreds of others, received a loan for $50,000. Many companies received far more.
  • Comment Millions of Companies received nothing. Being a part of this small group makes A J M notable. In fact, A J M has received far more than $50,000 in financing as well...I shall continue my research to suport this.--Helpful4sure (talk) 01:12, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.gaebler.com/Paramus++NJ++COLUMBIA+BANK--SBA-Loan-List
The same list as above, only shorter
... I did not even notice that "DNB.PowerProfiles.com" required registration to read the full profile. This was an oversight on my part; it looked too much like another junk listings site. Hairhorn (talk) 22:26, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Keep. The article has been fundamentally changed and re-edited since it was submitted for deletion. All articles of concern have been addressed and a consensus has been reached on previously debated issues--Helpful4sure (talk) 04:31, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Editorial issues aside - IMHO this barely passes WP:CSD G11 - I just can't find any evidence of notability. It boils down to "they received government loans", "they transport weird goods", and (as nom put it) "they have a lot of trucks". That's a long, long way from WP:CORP or WP:GNG's requirements. Tim Song (talk) 05:07, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Top Ten Reasons A J M Industries, LLC is Notable:
    • 1) A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it's contributions to the growth of the Iron & Steel Industry.
    • 2) A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it Role in supplying Publicly owned Corporations.
    • 3) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it has received the acclaim and approval of the United States Small Business Administration.
    • 4) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Regionally by millions of people who view their trucks & products travelling the roads every day.
    • 5) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Regionally for its role in supplying many Large-Scale Construction Projects.
    • 5) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Nationally by decision makers of Publicly Held Corporations.
    • 6) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Internationally by it's trade partners and customers.
    • 7) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it has been in existance for more than 5 years.
    • 8) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it's sales have increased over a short period of time to over $3 Million. This is undisputably notable within the business community.
    • 9) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it was founded by a Third Generation Entrepreneur.
    • 10) A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it's contributions to the Economy of The State of New Jersey. —Preceding unsigned --Helpful4sure (talk) 20:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note:This comment is uncivil and I kindly request that it be removed.--Helpful4sure (talk) 01:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep: Notability has been established. This addresses a previous concern that a fellow editor had regarding notability, which has been addressed. I thought this was a discussion. Please keep an open mind and be willing to change your initial opinion.--Helpful4sure (talk) 21:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You already recommended to "keep" above, repeating your opinion does not help the discussion. WuhWuzDat 21:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I was not merely repeating my opinion but was stating that in light of the notability that has been established, the article should be kept now. A consensus has been reached on all issues that this article was origionally nominated for deletion because of.--Helpful4sure (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2009 (UTC) Also, is it customary for editors to "cross out" other people's writing?? Because, I find this practice a bit rude and presumptuous.--Helpful4sure (talk) 22:03, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One person does not a consensus make. WuhWuzDat 22:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
...said the preacher to the choir.
The business community, as well as other decision makers locally, regionally, nationally & internationally have reached a consensus on this subject (see top ten list above). The editors who have voiced opinions here as well as the broader wikipedia community have acquiesced. I'll let you have the last word if you insist but I'd rather hear from individuals that can contribute constructively to wikiprojects such as wikiproject New Jersey, wikiproject business and wikiproject corporation. --Helpful4sure (talk) 00:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus, my dear young friend, on the inclusion of subjects such as A J M Industries; including their "wikipedia notability," has indeed been established by the business community and by the wikipedia community. The business community here on wikipedia, as well the broader community, have in fact acquiesced, with the exception of a couple of editors with a reputation for deletions and speedy deletions.
List of Ten Reasons a consensus has been established on the inclusion of this article:
1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_Shore_Steel
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bing_Steel
3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Companies_based_in_New_Jersey
4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Distributors
5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Companies_established_in_2004
6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wholesalers
7) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_New_Jersey
8) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Business
9) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Companies
10) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Transportation_in_New_Jersey
--Helpful4sure (talk) 16:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Item 1, a long established, unrelated, rolling mill. See WP:WAX
Item 2, a large, unrelated steel stamping plant supplying the auto industry, See WP:WAX
Note: WP:WAX does not prevent this type of arguement, especially since this is just a small part of the broader cogent argument for inclusion.--Helpful4sure (talk) 18:39, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Items 3 thru 10, categories that YOU added YOUR article to, proves absolutely nothing, beyond the fact that you figured out how to add your article to categories. I could add Caterpillar Inc. to Category:Watchmakers, but that wouldn't make their products useful for time telling, nor comfortable to wear on your wrist. Wouldn't you look silly with a huge yellow bulldozer on your wrist?
Your repeated lists of meaningless trivia, and unilateral proclamations of consensus!, and notability! do nothing to establish these criteria.
I am reminded of the old saying, "...If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!"
Consensus will be established here, on this page, not in your mind, or in some broader business community. Wikiprojects, categories, and images do nothing to prove notability. WuhWuzDat 17:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please Note:I don't appreciate your tone, your sarcasm, or your use of foul language. You are repeatedly acting in an uncivil manner and adding nothing constructive to this discussion.--Helpful4sure (talk) 17:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This is inaccurate, I didn't add the article to all of these categories or wikiprojects. The categories that I did add, were added at the request of another editor and all categories are rational, and relevant; unlike your caterpillar example.--Helpful4sure (talk) 17:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reply, diff showing YOU adding items 3, 4, 5, 6, and 10 here. Item 7 here. Item 8 here. Item 9 was NOT add by you, (my apologies), but was added as an indirect result of your addition of item 7. WuhWuzDat 18:06, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What's your point?--Helpful4sure (talk) 18:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To counter your (inaccurate) claim of my previous response being "inaccurate". WuhWuzDat 18:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your previous response was inaccurate, you admitted it, then clarified it, then went on to infer some weird meaning that somehow it shouldn't matter that another editor added this article to the wikiproject companies project. To which I ask the question...What's your point?--Helpful4sure (talk) 18:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment As it is extremely obvious to me that the original author of the article in question intends to bury any meaningful additions to this discussion in endless mounds of trivia, "top 10 lists", unrelated facts, accusations of incivility, baseless rebuttals of any argument to delete, and unilateral proclamations of consensus!, and notability!, I will now withdraw from this discussion, to leave him here talking to himself. I would suggest that future participants in this discussion limit themselves to a simple recommendation of action for the article, with reasoning. WP:DENY may apply. See also: Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass My original nomination to DELETE still stands. WuhWuzDat 19:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. While there is a conflict of interest issue noted above, and the history section is written like a publicity piece, the underlying problem is that the company hasn't done anything notable. I looked at the D&B Power Profile linked from the article, and it's a small company (<25 employees, <$2 million annual sales). —C.Fred (talk) 19:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Thanks for participating. I would like to know what you think of the list of top ten reasons for notability and also what this company could do to become more notable if you think that these reasons are insufficient. I've read the article on notable notability that you reference and from my point of view this company has met all of the criteria. Also, since you don't like the history section...would you take some time and help me out by re-editing it. Thanks--Helpful4sure (talk) 19:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The top ten reasons "for notability" boil down to one thing: other stuff exists. Nothing there is an argument for the subject being notable. If that's the strongest evidence, I may need to up my recommendation to a strong delete. As for rewriting the history, once there are better sources, I'll look at it, and re-evaluate the article. I'll also monitor the article's talk page. But until independent sources are added to the article, I'm done with discussion here. SK —C.Fred (talk) 20:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Thanks for participating, but I was referring to this list:
    • Comment: Top Ten Reasons A J M Industries, LLC is Notable:
    • 1) A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it's contributions to the growth of the Iron & Steel Industry.
    • 2) A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it Role in supplying Publicly owned Corporations.
    • 3) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it has received the acclaim and approval of the United States Small Business Administration.
    • 4) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Regionally by millions of people who view their trucks & products travelling the roads every day.
    • 5) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Regionally for its role in supplying many Large-Scale Construction Projects.
    • 5) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Nationally by decision makers of Publicly Held Corporations.
    • 6) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Internationally by it's trade partners and customers.
    • 7) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it has been in existance for more than 5 years.
    • 8) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it's sales have increased over a short period of time to over $3 Million. This is undisputably notable within the business community.
    • 9) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it was founded by a Third Generation Entrepreneur.
    • 10) A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it's contributions to the Economy of The State of New Jersey.
  • Which doesn't say anything about other articles. Even if you chose not to contribute to this article can you, or the next person that comments on notability, please be more specific. Also, please read all of the sources that were provided. Not just one. It's hard to have a meaningful discussion with editors that are rushing through all of this (and I am sympathetic to the fact that it is alot). Thanks--Helpful4sure (talk) 20:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I propose that this article be kept because it meets the notability guidelines. If another wishes to propose a deletion please read all:
  • References: (By Request)
  • Dun & Bradstreet Power Profiles
  • State of New Jersey
  • For Entrepreneurs, Raising Money in Rochelle Park, NJ: Financing for Fabricated Structural Metal Manufacturing
  • Manufacturers News
  • www.sba.gov
  • www.accionusa.org
  • www.manta.com
  • www.hoovers.com
  • www.dnb.com
  • http://www.sba.gov/loans/businessdetail/output/2007/busnj.html
  • http://www.gaebler.com/Paramus++NJ++COLUMBIA+BANK--SBA-Loan-List
  • http://www.gaebler.com/Paramus++NJ++COLUMBIA+BANK--SBA-Loan-List
  • http://haccpassaic.com/interest.htm
  • As well as the Top Ten Reasons A J M Industries, LLC is Notable: (Reprinted for Convenience)
    • 1) A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it's contributions to the growth of the Iron & Steel Industry.
    • 2) A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it Role in supplying Publicly owned Corporations.
    • 3) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it has received the acclaim and approval of the United States Small Business Administration.
    • 4) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Regionally by millions of people who view their trucks & products travelling the roads every day.
    • 5) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Regionally for its role in supplying many Large-Scale Construction Projects.
    • 5) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Nationally by decision makers of Publicly Held Corporations.
    • 6) A J M Industries, LLC is recognized Internationally by it's trade partners and customers.
    • 7) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it has been in existance for more than 5 years.
    • 8) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it's sales have increased over a short period of time to over $3 Million. This is undisputably notable within the business community.
    • 9) A J M Industries, LLC is notable because it was founded by a Third Generation Entrepreneur.
    • 10) A J M Industries, LLC is notable for it's contributions to the Economy of The State of New Jersey.
  • After doing this, and by the way, some of the references require a payment before you can view the whole article, but after reading all references, including the ones that are Not Free then by all means please comment on this. But I do ask that you read ALL references before making an assumption that this subject is not notable or that notability is not verifiable. Also I recommend asking me to explain my reasoning in advance for something you may object to in order that we can avoid a prolonged debate over a topic. Thank you--Helpful4sure (talk) 23:18, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
True: Just wanted to get the point across that without reading all references, including the ones that Not Free, that a decision on notability & verifibility could not be made--67.83.175.240 (talk) 04:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete too small to be notable unless there is something exceptional, and there is not. Not a single one of the accomplishments listed above are more than utttely routine and trivial, separately or together DGG ( talk ) 08:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have been contemplating this statement for some time, because I see that the user who posted it is a well respected expert in a certain field. But, after doing much research, I have not been able to find one single company like this one. This company is not routine or trivial because it is the only company that has been established within the last five years (or ten for that matter) supplying these types of products to this region. It is one of only a handful of companies (less than 5?) that do what it does in the region and it is the only one doing export work in the caribbean. I don't think that qualifies as "utterly routine and trivial" I would say it is rather "unconventional & unique" worthy of an article.--Helpful4sure (talk) 20:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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