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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rafablu88 (talk | contribs) at 14:38, 4 September 2009 (re hammersoft). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

A Weekend in the City

Nominator(s): Rafablu88 17:18, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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For all the talk about nominators having to be polite, welcome to the most imperfect process in the history of mankind. This clearly meets the criteria so support. That is all. Also, don't oppose and leave it hanging forever even though your improvements have been made. I'm sick and tired of that happening. Rafablu88 17:18, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

<conversation unrelated to article moved to talk page>

Update Fixed 1 disam. link, all ref links working, alt text good. Rafablu88 19:08, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments: You're lucky I'm not put off by your rudeness and disregard for an important process. My issues:
    • I'm definitely not disregarding an important process. The fact that I work tirelessly to get stuff here should tell you all you need to know. Just generally not happy with filibustering and negligence. You obviously are neither especially as you took the time to comment even though you had similar issues as the users above. For that, thanks. Rafablu88 21:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • No problem. It's just I would consider the "nomination rationale" you left slightly… flame-bait-ish? I would have gone about nominating in a different way than yourself, even if I had the same reservations, tis all.
    • "Despite missing their hometown of London" seems slightly inappropriate. Hometown, to me, refers to somewhere that the reader is likely to not have heard of, usually because of its size.
      • I don't fully understand the issue here. It's merely pointing out that London is Bloc Party's hometown and the info is integral to what is explained later about the album. Rafablu88 21:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • My issue is simply that hometown seems an odd little word for such a well-known and large place as London. I can't think of an alternative, and it's not a big deal anyway. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk)
    • "Multi-instrumentalist Gordon Moakes" would something more specific such as "Band member" or "Backing singer" be more appropriate? "Multi-instrumentalist" makes it feel as if he's giving outside commentary (until the quote is read).
    • "high-profile producers like Jacknife Lee" low-profile enough to not have a wikilink?
    • "delivery of their staccato indie rock" would assume "indie rock" or a derivative thereof needs to be wikilinked, considering other music types (dance music) are.
      • The above two points: Both are linked in the lead (which I usually treat as the rest of the article) and I don't link things again unless it's songs in the track list, charts, or equipment (all done for user ease). Rafablu88 21:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Really? I've never understood why wikilinking terms repeated in the lead and main text isn't enforced. Are we all under the illusion that people are going to read the entire article? They're almost certainly not; many people will probably just use the TOC to navigate to a section of their interest/need. Hence why I'd consider wikilinking those terms. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk)
          • Linked them but I still think it's unnecessary because I'm sure everyone reads the lead before the rest and so has seen the links regardless of the section they click. Also going under that assumption would mean linking every term the was new in every section regardless if it's been linked before just because A. Billy ADHD can't be bothered to try being fully enlightened. Rafablu88 11:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • This is DONE btw. Rafablu88 21:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The title comes as a tangent to the central theme of the album, "the living noise of a metropolis"." is it usual for the title of an album not to be discussed until the Promotion and Release? I thought this would have gone in Origins.
    • "First single". This occurs a number of times (one of which I fixed). I honestly can't see why they aren't prefixed with "The". Surely if you have "The next single" then you ought to have "The [number] single"?
  • More comments:
    • Jacknife Lee needs to be "Garret "Jacknife" Lee".
    • This article refers to Bloc Party as an Indie rock band, whilst the article on the band itself gives them as simply a rock band.
      • WP:OTHERSTUFF, but anyway that article's infobox clearly gives their genres and I'm sure you can allow a band to change their musical style drastically in a given album.
        • As far as I can tell the place that link took me to had no relevance to my issue. The infobox gives the genres of the album, not of the band. It's not a case of me allowing a band to change musical style, a lot of bands and musicians do that. My point is: we can't change the band's genre to whatever album we're detailing. And you shouldn't change the genre of the band on their article without reaching a consensus either… (I noticed) MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Studio Sessions" image. Can "(L-R)" be expanded, I haven't ever seen an article where it's been abbreviated. Also "Tong's drum kit is surrounded by a booth and each component has its own miking set-up" resembles the Alt text, and isn't what I'd consider an appropriate caption.
      • I reworded it slightly. I don't know what the problem is if both alt and real are the same especially when real has to explain what is seen in the photo (booth and miking setup which are written in the text too) in the same vein as alt. Rafablu88 11:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Okereke's lyrics juxtapose the apparent meaningless monotony with the seemingly epic experiences in a city environment, from waiting for a train, struggles with racial identity, terrorist attacks, and desperation on a dancefloor." it sounds so pretentious. Do there need to be 13 words to describe how someone is showing that there can be great and meaningless experiences in a city? The second section should be "from waiting for a train, struggling with racial identity and terrorist attacks, to desperation on a dancefloor". On that note, what is "desperation on a dancefloor about?".MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 10:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now, mainly on prose grounds. A few general points first:

**"A low-quality rip of A Weekend in the City leaked in November..." It presumably didn't leak itself, so "was leaked". Who leaked it?

    • "A high-quality version was leaked in January 2007, which was confirmed by Okereke." What exactly did Okereke confirm?
      • DONE. The contents. Rafablu88 16:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC) [reply]
        • Your text reads "A high-quality version was leaked in January 2007, whose contents were confirmed by Okereke." Contents are not a "who". And it's still not clear, for either of these leaks, who did the leaking. Brianboulton (talk) 23:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC) [reply]
          • Rephrased it. And if I'd known who leaked it I would have written it. The source mentions noone as is the case with internet leaks. I don't think "leaked by deranged internet pirates" would be encyclopaedic or verifiable. Rafablu88 00:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • My point was that sometimes people leak things themselves, as a form of test-marketing.

**"released in the rest of the world" seems an odd way of describing the general release of a album. "Released worldwide" might be a more orthodox expression.

  • I have spot-checked a few citations: "Bloc Party wanted to expand their sonic palette without losing the cathartic delivery of their staccato indie rock.[15]" What part of ref [15] are you saying supports this statement?
    • It's number 16 and it says: "We've retained some of that jerkiness [from Silent Alarm] but we didn't want to do anything that we've already done. There's a lot of gentle stuff, but we don't want to have a gentle record. Moakes says some of the cuts the group have come up with sound not far from the edgy, dream-rock..." Rafablu88 16:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC) [reply]
  • POV warning: "The highly honest approach..." Whose words are "highly honest"? If they are from the source, they should be in quotes and attributed. If they are POV they should be withdrawn.
    • The polar citations used to prove the statement are:
    • Allmusic: "A Weekend in the City, an unashamedly ambitious, emotional album", "On A Weekend in the City, Bloc Party is sadder, wiser, and more heart-on-sleeve than ever -- almost embarrassingly so", "He's become a striking lyricist, conveying ambivalence and yearning in remarkably direct terms"
    • The Guardian: "Unfortunately, grand statements are not earnest frontman Kele Okereke's forte", "There's barely a song that isn't kneecapped by one of Okereke's lyrical clangers. Just one reference to "crosswords and sudoku" kills Waiting for the 7.18 stone dead, while Hunting for Witches, about fear of terrorism, is so gauche that you might find yourself feeling kindly towards John Reid"
    • Rafablu88 17:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Please contact me when you think you have addressed these points. The list is not comprehensive, and should be used as a basis for identifying other problems. Brianboulton (talk) 16:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments:

  • Your "God forbid" response, above, is a little worrying, if it implies that you would place poetic licence above accuracy or encyclopedic style. I trust this is not the case.
  • I'm a bit concerned that you have 15 separate citations to a single page of the Murphy article, and 12 to another page. The 15 citations to page 36 seem to cover a lot of information. Can you confirm that all the information cited to these pages is found there?
  • I said earlier that my main concern was the standard of the prose. I have now read through (fairly quickly) the remainder of the article and have found numerous further problems. If you have got there first, and fixed any of them, I apologise:-
    • "The track ostracises right-wing newspapers..." – "ostracises"? The word means "to exclude or banish from a group or society". I guess you mean crticise or castigate, or something like that.
    • The second part of this same sentence needs rewording, to clarify the subject of "which"
    • If a crush is unrequited, it's a one-way affair. An unrequited crush cannot be "between" two people
    • Normal usage is "East London" not "east London". The sentence is clumsy anyway with two "ands" - needs reworking
    • Please look at the construction of the sentence beginning "Many songs detail..." Apart from being overlong, the grammar is wrong at the beginning.
    • "a drunk and promiscuous night out" A night out can be "drunken", but not "drunk" (as in, for example, a "drunken stupor")
    • "difference with" → "difference from"
    • Ambiguous: "Layered vocals are often used to resemble choral sections in A Weekend in the City" My guess is that you meant: "In A Weekend in the City, layered vocals are often used to resemble choral sections"
    • "It sold 148,000 copies in the U.S. by August 2008" needs to be "It had sold..." etc
    • "...a maelstrom of anger and confusion." These graphic words from the source should be in quote marks
    • "the publication included it in its 1000 Albums To Hear Before You Die list compiled in November 2007 by praising the band's "ambitious indie soundscapes packing a sizeable political punch". The "by" should be replaced by a comma.
    • Tours and rerelease section: this is mostly information which is not about the album which is the subject of this article.
      • No, the first paragraph details the tours FOR the album in summary style (i.e further promotion), which also have an effect on sales, charts, etc. The second paragraph explains the promotion before the re-release in the same vein as the actual release was covered in "Promotion and release". The section is a historical facet of the entity in question and is needed for completeness. Rafablu88 13:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
These prose concerns reinforce my view that the article needs to be copyedited thoroughly, by someone other than you, to help bring the prose to the standard required for featured articles. I will be happy to look at the article again, when that has been done. Brianboulton (talk) 12:32, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
God bless vague assertions. I'll ask around. Rafablu88 13:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, on the question of vague assertions, quote "This clearly meets the criteria so support. That is all." Without really trying, I have found a dozen or so prose faults. The article has improved considerably as a result of this review process, but would clearly benefit from another pair of eyes than yours, and that is what I am requesting. Brianboulton (talk) 09:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just yanking your chain Brian. You're a good sport. Rafablu88 13:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment—I find the table-y and list-y sections at the bottom half of the article rather overwhelming, especially the track listing. Only the original track-listing (and that global one with the extra song, in this particular case) is ever really notable. Considering that these days albums are sold by different retailers with all sorts of bonus tracks and variations, I don't think it is particularly notable or necessary to list down all of these various formats. The track-listing for the additional remixes/live-DVD doesn't belong either.

  • Yep, summarised DVD stuff. Bonus tracks are needed though as they were created during the same studio sessions (i.e. the "30 sound checks" mentioned in Origins). Two of them even made the preliminary track list. Rafablu88 19:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The same goes for the release history section. How is a collection of release dates and catalogue dates of any interest to the general reader? Remember WP:NOTCATALOG, Wikipedia is not a "complete exposition of all possible details." All important record labels and dates have been already covered in the prose anyway.

Per WP:CHART: "The number of charts should include no more than ten official national charts, and up to ten additional or secondary charts, but no more than eighteen charts total." indopug (talk) 19:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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