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September 11

Searching For A Particular Extract From A Novel Be Richmal Crompton

IN WHICH OF THE SERIES OF BOOKS ON "WILLIAM" BY RICHMAL CROMPTON CAN I FIND THE HILARIOUS INTERACTION BETWEEN WILLIAM AND A SUBSTITUTE ENGLISH TEACHER WHO TRIES TO ARROGANTLY SHOW OFF HIS KNOWLEDGE OF WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE ONLY TO BE THOROUGHLY CONFUSED BY WILLIAM? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.236.219 (talk) 08:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you read our instructions about not typing in ALL CAPITALS? It's the internet equivalent of SHOUTING AT US! -- JackofOz (talk) 09:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It might be William Holds the Stage from William the Pirate but I do not remember the books well enough to be sure. Sorry the answer is a little vague but I think it is better to attempt to answer than simply attacking the questioner. meltBanana 12:20, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

People should be told when their behavior is out of line. It's never too late to learn—— one keeps telling oneself.--Wetman (talk) 21:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

And I certainly did not "attack the questioner". I questioned their actions, a very different thing. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:21, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

It was indeed the story "William Holds the Stage" which is the second story in "William the Pirate", pp.36-57. However it was not a substitute teacher but an Old Boy of the school who wanted to show off his knowledge of Shakespeare, since he had written an article on him which had been published in the local press. This Old Boy was allowed to give a lesson to William's class, since the teacher had suddenly been taken ill. William, because he considered himself to be a writer, was the only boy in the class who paid any attention to this Old Boy's lesson, but would keep interjecting his own amusing comments into the lesson. Simonschaim (talk) 17:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

thanks meltbanana and simonschain. jackofoz: sorry, didnt mean to offend your sensitive virtual eardrums...note, i'm now whispering.....jimmervyn

1992 Los Angeles riots

How come the article does not mention smaller riots taking place in other U.S. cities and Toronto? B-Machine (talk) 14:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Questions about articles should really be put on the talk page of the relevant articles. The reference desk is here to answer factual questions.

But to answer your question anyway, the answer is simple, no-one has put it there. If you have good knowledge of the events then Be Bold and improve the article. Please reference your work, but even if you can;t adding accurate information is a good step. Prokhorovka (talk) 18:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The article is about LA. It does not have to mention other - possibly small - riots.--Mr.K. (talk) 17:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Beethoven - Six Ecossaises

A couple of days ago, I attended an afternoon piano recital.

The first item on the program was titled "Six Ecossaises" by Beethoven. This was not a weighty, profound work, but a very delightful, enjoyable piece.

By the time the pianist finished the third ecossais, I got the feeling that part of it was repetitious. By the end, I realized that the last half of each ecossais was virtually identical to each other.

I later asked him about the name. He said that an "Ecossais" is a Scottish dance.

I'm familiar with the concept of "Theme and Variations", but I'm unable to tell if this is an example of that, where each of the last 5 dances are a variation of the first. But even if that's so, I'm struck that the last half of each dance has hardly any variation.

If you're interested in listening to what I'm asking about, here's a link to a youtube clip. And there are other clips there which are pretty much the same.

In this clip, times are as follows:

Dance #--Start time--Start of "Refrain"

  1       :04       :18
  2       :31       :46
  3      1:00      1:14
  4      1:27      1:41
  5      1:55      2:08
  6      2:21      2:37

(I put "refrain" in quotes because I'm not sure that I'm using the word correctly).

Finally to the question - how do you define this work?

Is it six different dances, where it just so happens that the last half of each are identical?

Is it six shorter dances, separated by a "refrain" which is not part of each dance?

Other choice?

Is it unique or almost unique? (This isn't the Language Desk, so I think I can get away with this solecism). Are there any other works like this? Bunthorne (talk) 18:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I know this piece well. It's usually called "Six Écossaises", but I've always thought of it as a single, unified work, because, as you say, each number ends the same way, so it sounds like variations on a theme. It's been recorded many times, but always complete afaik. I've never heard the individual dances performed separately. It was published only in 1888, 60-odd years after Beethoven's death, and the title was probably supplied by a publisher. It's a little analagous to the Viennese waltz. Take The Blue Danube, for example. The famous theme is only the first of a number of completely different waltz tunes within the overall "waltz". Does that make the work (and most of Strauss's other "waltzes") a set of waltzes, or just a waltz? Titles are arbitrary things, and sometimes tell something other than the story. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Jack. That makes a lot of sense, especially when one learns how various works got their name. In most cases, I think the composer would be surprised to find out the name their work ended up with. Bunthorne (talk) 02:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

On reflection, it's not so much variations on a theme, but the non-vocal equivalent of a song where the words to each verse are different but the refrain is always the same. I can't think of the term for this off-hand. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Portrayal of Jewish women during Third Reich

From what I've seen, nazi propoganda is filled with images of jewish men and portrays them in a certain way (i.e devious, criminal, deformed, sexually perverted etc.,), but I've never seen or read any anti-semitic material from that era about jewish women. Was there any significant attempt to portray jewish women in a certain light or was it just jewish men who were demonised? 198.54.202.114 (talk) 18:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, men were certainly the focus of the propaganda posters, but I suspect there were Jewish women elsewhere in the Nazi cosmology. See e.g. this page in an academic book which discusses how Nazi propaganda discussed Jewish women. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 00:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The Jewish man as predatory sexual deviant was a threat to the purity of "Aryan" womanhood; the reverse situation (Jewish woman/"Aryan" man) apparently wasn't considered worth featuring in Nazi antisemitic propaganda. Another frequently depicted aspect of the demonized Jew not mentioned by the OP is as the fat plutocrat, particularly a profiteer enriched by exploiting the German people. As such the Jewish woman appears as a rich man's corpulent wife, as seen in the children's textbook, Der Giftpilz, and popularly in Der Stuermer. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

extermination

What did the Jews do that made the German people so mad at them that they would go along with extermination versus say expulsion? -- Taxa (talk) 19:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Not much. The German people were having difficult times (due to reparations from WWI, among other things) and the Nazis gave them somebody to blame. People like to have somebody to blame. --Tango (talk) 19:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The Nazis cited a book written by a Jew calling for Germany's destruction (I forget the name, but I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about it and will post a Wikilink to it.) Also, the Nazis did try expulsion but other nations didn't want Jews either. See MS St. Louis. 204.2.252.254 (talk) 19:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The book is Germany Must Perish! A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Given that it was published in 1941, it simply cannot be related to the Nazi treatment of Jews. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, the question referenced extermination versus expulsion. The Madagascar Plan was formally abandoned in Febuary 1942 and the Wannsee Conference was held in January 1942. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

German attitudes toward Jews had little or nothing to do with Jewish actions. Antagonism toward Jews was (is?) a feature not just of German but of virtually all European Christian cultures that goes back hundreds of years. The Nazis just tapped into it to pin the blame for the German people's troubles on the Jews. See our article on Anti-Semitism. Marco polo (talk) 20:02, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

What about Islamic cultures? Did they play any part in the role you have given to Christian culture? -- Taxa (talk) 20:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe so. Islamic cultures have their own history of problems with antisemitism but weren't a great influence on the Christian cultures of the time. In fact, at the time they were generally less anti-semetic then many European Christians. And if anything, European anti-semitism had more of an influence on Islamic anti-semitism then vice versa. See also Islam and antisemitism Nil Einne (talk) 21:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Answering the first question: I read somewhere today that the an opposition to the Nazi party was the Communist party, which was led by thirteen men, all Jews. A general Europe-wide fear of Communism meant Jews were despised by association; blaming Jewish communists got the people on your side. So all those people were killed due to fallacy...The article may not have been accurate, it wasn't on Wikipedia. Vimescarrot (talk) 20:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

That would mean that anticommunism was the foundation of antisemitism in Germany, which is untrue. The anti-semitism article will be useful reading, and probably more so the two articles Racial policy of Nazi Germany and Nuremberg Laws. And The Destruction of the European Jews. To quote our article on the latter:

In the early stages, Nazi policies targeting Jews (whether directly or through aryanization) treated them as sub-human, but with a right to live under such conditions that this status affords. In the later stages, policy was formulated to define the Jews as anti-human, with extermination being viewed an increasingly urgent necessity. The growing Nazi momentum of destruction, began with the murdering of Jews in German and German-annexed and occupied countries, and then intensified into a search for Jews to either exterminate or use as forced labour from countries allied with Nazi Germany as well as neutral countries. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

All 13 were Jews? That seems unlikely. Karl Marx was a Jew, so that might be some of where the association was coming from. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Some of the early big-shots of the Soviet Union were Jews. One has to remember that in the early 20th century anti-Semitists blamed the Jews for the rise of Communism and everything else bad that happened. Propaganda will work even (or especially) if something isn't true (read: Big Lie). The early 20th world was AFAIK very racist and anti-Semitic (I saw TV documentaries which spoke among other things of 'scientific studies done in the early 20's by respected American universities which "proved" that Japanese couldn't fly planes because they didn't have a depth perception because of their slitted eyes and that Blacks couldn't fly planes because they "weren't smart enough", etc' (our article Tuskegee Airmen mentions the last). The Dreyfus affair, Henry Ford, The International Jew, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion... these were but the more acute symptoms. Read for example Scientific racism especially the 19th and 20th century sections. Flamarande (talk) 00:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

What about Cuba from which Jews were turned away? Cuba became Communist... and now Venezuela. (BTW - it was just reported that Russia is shipping Missiles to Venezuela.) -- Taxa (talk) 04:21, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It's MUCH more likely that you guys have this 180 degrees wrong. I am pretty certain that the Nazi's hated the Communists because it was a "Jewish philosophy" (per Karl Marx's background, and others noted above) and not the other way around. They didn't hate the Jews because they were communists, they hated the Communists because they were Jews! --Jayron32 04:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

To focus on the question of "Why extermination rather than expulsion" - once the Nazis gained enough power to go from rhetoric to implementation in ridding Europe (and with the Third Reich's aims, eventually the world) of Jews, they developed and used the most effective means of doing so. Remember the numbers involved: so many live refugees were impediment to the policy of Lebensraum and overall would be competing for dwindling resources needed to sustain the wartime homefront population. By eliminating them (that included plundering their properties and wealth by expropriation), there were problems solved and much benefit to be gained. So the Nazi Germans devoted themselves to finding increasingly cost-effective and practical ways to exterminate this vast and reviled population, from shootings by the Einsatzgruppen to gassing in extermination camps plus a number of similarly brutal variations in between. The only valid reason for allowing some skilled or physically fit Jews to continue existing for a time was to exploit them in concentration and forced labor camps, for the benefit of the German war effort. There was evidently no humanitarian reason to keep Jews alive, and so they were exterminated and their remains reduced by incineration or disposed of by burial in mass graves. Kindly note that I don't present this with chapter-and-verse citations (which could well be compiled with more time than I have available at present) but as a condensed description of Nazi theory and practice over the Third Reich period, as is documented in many articles in Wikipedia and research libraries and period archives (in one of which I work). In summary: extermination of the Jews was in their best interests, expedient, and evidently outweighed any counterargument.-- Deborahjay (talk) 08:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The Nazis gave away the wealth and possessions of the murdered Jews to the Nazi's supporters and also the non-Jewish public. Thus, while in Britain for example people became very short of material things during the war, in Nazi Germany working class women began wearing fur coats and there were not material shortages except for perishable goods such as food. I do not remember the details of the book I read that went into the details of all this - its title might have been something like "Nazi Economics". There is another similar book about this that I have not read. 78.149.190.169 (talk) 23:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Jew-hating is nothing new, so it might be worth considering that the Germans weren't any more ardent than the previous instances of official Jew-bashing, but only that they were the first with access to modern media and propaganda tools, modern political organization and a fully industrialized economy, which allowed them to be much more "successful" than previous malefactors. --Sean 17:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It was a simple matter of sentiment. Reasons come after sentiment. Vranak (talk) 18:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Hitler was influenced by Martin Luther and his On Jews and their Lies. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 02:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Pharos Lighthouse & Nice (France)

I have just been speaking to a Chinese friend of mine who is studying French in France. She told me that she is going to visit Nice, and she said it is famous for its lighthouse, which she then called 'Pharos'. She was unable to explain to me why she called it Pharos, because she had to suddenly go and do something, but it got me thinking. Why would she think Pharos, the Lighthouse of Alexandria and one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World would be in (or indeed have anything to do with) Nice in France? Can anyone get the connection here? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The French word for "lighthouse" is "phare", just as the Spanish word for lighthouse is "faro". So the lady is probably just trying to translate the word and came up with the wrong guess. But then, this question is better for the Language Reference Desk. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, that would make sense. She said 'la ville phare [sic] du Sud' which made no sense to me, not knowing that 'phare' was 'lighthouse', then she said 'il y a un lighthouse, un beacon, un pharos', and these words all struck me as they are all related. I see, now. So, it's just a lighthouse and has nothing to do with Egypt? Thanks! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Almost nothing, as museum has almost nothing to do with Alexandria.--Wetman (talk) 06:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Pharos is a name for a lighthouse - eg http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5243764

See Lighthouse_of_Alexandria#Pharos_in_culture

also " Pharos became the etymological origin of the word 'lighthouse' in Greek (φάρος), Bulgarian (фар) and many Romance languages, such as French (phare), Italian (faro), Portuguese (farol), Spanish (faro), Romanian, and Catalan (far)." from the same article.83.100.250.79 (talk) 12:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, the expression "la ville phare" in French does not directly refer to a lighthouse. It means "the leading city" or "the trend-setting city". There is a distant reference to a lighthouse that lights the path that others follow, but the expression is now completely divorced for its coastal origins. --Xuxl (talk) 21:09, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Possibly that's what she meant to say, but the conversation turned (by my misunderstanding) to lighthouses. No wonder she 'suddenly' had something else to do.... :) --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 11:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

September 12

Symbols

the following symbols are widely used in internet communication after a sentence. but I exactly don't know the meanings. plz tell what to the following symbols mean:

1. :)
2. (:x
3. :-)
4. ;):P (sometimes also :-P)
5. ;):D WikiQuestionnaire (talk) 01:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

See Emoticon and the lists linked from there. Algebraist 01:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Or just type :-) into the search box.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Help identifying a sci-fi story...

Shot in the dark, but here we go:

Purchased this paperback book at an American supermarket sometime in the 90's. The plot involved (at least) 2 major interstellar warring factions, both of which had mech technology. You had to "die" to become a mech pilot, as your brain was basically grafted in. I can recall one side considered this a tremendous honor, and would hold elaborate ceremonies before executing their best soldiers in front of their peers and relatives. Doctors then would rush over and prepare the body for transfer. For the other side, their mech pilots were criminals or soldiers who had been mortally wounded, and required various psych-drugs to keep fighting.

I also recall a female commander of some sort masturbating in her private quarters in orbit while watching prisoner interrogations via some sort of camera robot on the planet below (yes, I did actually buy this at a supermarket). The only other certain detail is that I passed the book to a friend of mine (who I'm no longer in touch with, or else I'd ask him!) and he bought the entire series - so there's more than one?

I also recall the winning side's recruitment of some sort of tremendous whale or jellyfish-like aquatic aliens with incomparable psych powers, who played a pivotal role in the final space battle by mind-controlling the enemy commanders. However, I'm not as certain that the preceding plot snippet is from the same book - it may be another scrap of sci-fi memory that time has seen fit to combine.

Any of that sound familiar? Be my hero! Thank you! 213.146.164.142 (talk) 07:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Just a note that if no one comes up with the answer here, you might want to repost your query to the folks at the Usenet group rec.arts.sf.written, who can usually answer questions like yours in a matter of minutes. If you don't have a newsgroup provider, the group is accessible via Google Groups here (but you'll need to create a GG account to post your message). Be sure to include "YASID" ("yet another story ID") in the message header. Deor (talk) 11:40, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that, I'll be sure to do so if it doesn't work out here! (OP on a different conn)61.189.63.208 (talk) 13:04, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't sound familiar, but can you post the answer here if you get it from somewhere else, because that book sounds crazy but amazing! Prokhorovka (talk) 14:52, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

(OP) Just went ahead and posted that on the Usenet group listed. Will be sure to post here again if they find it! 61.189.63.208 (talk) 23:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I hope you didn't use the phrase "sci-fi" when you did, as that's offensive to a large segment of the SF community. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 06:24, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

By chance, I did not. But I find the thought of anyone taking offense along those lines as both laughable & sad. There is so much more to life than being offended by literary genre classification. 61.189.63.208 (talk) 06:57, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

A lot of people tend to pronounce it "skiffy", which offends science fiction devotees, who feel that the intentional pronunciation marginalizes the genre. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 07:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This excludes those devotees for whom that is the prefered pronunciation, I suppose. Algebraist 11:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I've heard that true aficionados prefer "S.F." to "Sci-Fi" anyway, as with "Trekkers" vs. "Trekkies". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 11:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, no-one uses "S.F." It's "SF" or "sf". Algebraist 11:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Just to clear up some of the above: members of the 'SF Community' (which has a cultural continuity stretching back to the 1920s) generally prefer SF/sf, pronounced "ess-eff". Some of the eldest may still use stf ("ess-tee-eff"), short for the older term Scientifiction, a portmanteau name coined by Hugo Gernsback, who founded the first English-language magazine devoted to the genre. Sci-Fi (pronounced "sigh-fie") was originally coined as a (non-disrespectful) pun on Hi-Fi by prominent SF & Horror Media Fan Forrest J Ackerman. However, for some reason Sci-fi became popular with journalists and others who often mocked the genre, and it consequently fell out of favour with Fans, who thereafter mainly applied it to poor-quality TV and Film works (or written derivatives thereof) which exploited SF trappings with no intellectual vigour, and regarded its use to refer to written SF as a giveaway that the user was an ignorant outsider. In recent years, Fans have taken to using "Skiffy" (rhyming with "jiffy"), supposedly a doubly ignorant mispronunciation of Sci-fi, amongst themselves as an ironicism. The post-Star Wars boom in (mostly media) SF has created a large genre viewer- and readership who have little cultural contact with the original SF Community, and are therefore excused from caring about any of this. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 20:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Harlan Ellison detests anything but "science fiction" EVAUNIT-666 20:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Partly, no doubt, a legacy of the period in which "SF" was redefined by some to stand for "Speculative Fiction". 87.81.230.195 (talk) 14:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Aren't they all taking themselves rather too over-seriously? The very term "science fiction" is oxymoronic, and all its derivatives bear that burden as well. I'm with 61.189. (This is not a comment on the quality of the writing.) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

How is it oxymoronic? I see no incompatibility between the two words. --ColinFine (talk) 23:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd have thought it was obvious. But since it's not, science is about establishing what is the case, whereas fiction by definition is about what isn't the case. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

And (good) Science Fiction is (frequently) about exploring human reactions to aspects of what might be the case, sometimes as a metaphor for what currently actually is the case. However, best not to drift further off topic into a debate ("How does one define SF?") that's been raging for decades. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 14:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Cleopatra Thea and Cleopatra III

According to their respective pages, Cleopatra Thea who married the Selucid Alexander Balas, and Cleopatra III who ruled Egypt, have the same parents (Ptolemy VI and Cleopatra II) and were contemporaries. What, if any, is their relationship besides the shared name? -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

If they had the same mother and the same father, they would be sisters. Thea appears to have been 2-3 years older than III. --Jayron32 12:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I got as far as drawing the conclusion that they were sisters, but as the pages are mute on this point I though perhaps some more information and editing might be in order. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I looked through Google and found this [1] which clearly states that these two were indeed sisters (the page is about their mother). Flamarande (talk) 15:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Education to work in corporate finance?

At first I intended to list my business/economics interests and ask what education would suit the most, but then I found the corporate finance article, which actually encompasses all such interests. So, at the bottom of that article there's a section on "related professional qualification" listing various degrees. But which of all those degrees is the best? Do different degrees (from the list) correspond to qualification for work in different topics listed, or do all the degrees listed qualify for work in all topics listed?

Thanks in advance for your input. Jack Daw (talk) 12:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It somewhat depends on the country where you intend to work. I think that in the United States, the MBA would be the standard degree for this kind of job, though a CPA qualification would probably also help. Marco polo (talk) 18:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

two more USPHS songs

I've learned the United States Public Health Service has two more songs. They happen to be Anchor & Caduceus and Bicentennia. I'm trying to find the lyrics to both songs. If anyone out there has any more information, please let me know. Thank you.69.203.157.50 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC).

It looks like Anchor & Caduceus is a fanfare so it's unlikely lyrics could be written for it.--Cam (talk) 13:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Neoptolemus I of Epirus

Does any source give information to additional children to King Neoptolemus, besides Alexander I of Epirus and Olympias, the mother of Alexander the Great? --Doug Coldwell ^talk 19:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's one: The first hit on this google books search is (page 187) Pyrrhus King of Epirus‎ by Petros Garouphalias (Stacey, 1979), ISBN 9780905743134. On the google search page you can read this text: 'Neoptolemus I had three children: Troas, Olympias and Alexander of Molossus... and ...of Epirus or else that Neoptolemus I must have had other children we do not.... Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Caster Semenya

If she was to run in a men's race or an open race against men, would she be any good? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.187.243 (talk) 20:00, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Not very. Her winning time in the 2009 World Championships in Athletics – Women's 800 metres would have put her 47th in the heats for the men's event. Algebraist 20:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Or to put it another way: very good. Based on the above, he/she would be the 47th best in the world. --Anonymous, 23:54 UTC, September 12, 2009.

It doesn't work like that. There were only 48 people that finished their heat. People don't run the same time every race, so you can't assume the slowest person that qualified ran faster than the fastest person that didn't qualify would have run. All the women in the women's final ran faster than the 47th and 48th place men in the men's heats. I suspect those men just had a bad day. --Tango (talk) 23:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it can't just have been a bad day since apparently they both ran season's bests. Either they've had a bad season or they aren't actually good enough for the competition and qualified through some loophole intended to get more countries involved. --Tango (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Looking at 2009 World Championships in Athletics qualification standards, it seems that Semenya would not even qualify for the men's event. None of the loopholes would apply in her case. Algebraist 11:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

My point was, if she beat the 48th-best time of the male contestants in the heats, that's still a helluvalot faster than most people can run. So it depends on what you mean by "good" at racing. You don't have to be Usain Bolt to qualify as "good" ... unless that is the level of "good"ness that the original poster had in mind. --Anonymous, 04:45 UTC, September 14, 2009.

A similar question came up in recent years when women's tennis was getting more attention than the men's game, and some boorish ex-star (John McEnroe, I think) asserted that even a top woman could not compete with a middle-of-the pack man. This caused a bit of controversy, during which one of the Williams sisters said, "well, he's correct". --Sean 17:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

September 13

How many US Army Colonels have been killed in combat/from combat-related injuries, ever?

I'm trying to figure this out. I was trying to use icasualties.org, which used to have an extensive search feature that allowed you to browse the fatalities in both OIF and OEF by rank, country, unit, name, age, etc. It no longer has that. I'm trying to find out the highest-ranking deaths in the United States Army, and then going down the ranks to see the frequency distribution. Right now the highest-ranking deaths I can find are of Captains... any help?--12.48.220.130 (talk) 00:16, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

edit: Found a Major--12.48.220.130 (talk) 00:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Just from a brief look at the List of Medal of Honor recipients for World War II, I can see a brigadier general, a rear admiral, and several lieutenant colonels who received the award posthumously. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Army Col. James W. Harrison Jr. was killed back in 2007.--12.48.220.130 (talk) 01:50, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if anyone has made a list of all the US Army colonels killed in combat, ever. There are very many. Colonels died by the score in the Civil War; generals often got killed too—you had a better chance of surviving as a private. High ranking officers died less frequently in later wars; Simon Bolivar Buckner, Jr. was one of the highest ranking to be killed in WW2. —Kevin Myers 07:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This discussion lists lots of generals, though not all died in combat. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Custer famously died in combat, as well. Malcolm XIV (talk) 10:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, but what about the current conflict? I've found 3 Colonels killed in Afghanistan.--12.48.220.130 (talk) 14:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This page seems complete for the Iraq war, and lists the following 30 colonels:

 2-09-2009    Derby, Garnet R.         Lieutenant Colonel
10-05-2008    Stahlman, Michael R.     Colonel
 9-14-2008    Marceaux Jr., Sidney J.  Colonel (Chaplain) 
 9-14-2008    Marino, Ralph J.         Lieutenant Colonel
 6-26-2008    Galeai, Max A.           Lieutenant Colonel
 4-06-2008    Scott, Stephen K.        Colonel
 7-06-2007    Lockey, Jon M.           Colonel
 6-11-2007    Felix, Glade L.          Lieutenant Colonel
 1-20-2007    Canegata, David C.       Lieutenant Colonel
 1-20-2007    Allgood, Brian D.        Colonel
 1-20-2007    Kelly, Paul M.           Colonel
11-14-2006    Felts Sr., Thomas H.     Colonel
11-13-2006    Winston, Peter E.        Lieutenant Colonel
11-02-2006    Finken, Paul J.          Lieutenant Colonel
11-02-2006    Kruger, Eric J.          Lieutenant Colonel
 9-04-2006    Gutierrez, Marshall A.   Lieutenant Colonel
 5-18-2006    Holland, Daniel E.       Lieutenant Colonel
 1-05-2006    McLaughlin, Michael E.   Lieutenant Colonel
11-05-2005    Wren, Thomas A.          Lieutenant Colonel
10-27-2005    Wood, William W.         Colonel
10-10-2005    James II, Leon G.        Lieutenant Colonel
 6-07-2005    Crowe, Terrence K.       Lieutenant Colonel
 6-05-2005    Westhusing, Theodore S.  Colonel    
 5-28-2005    Smart, Albert E.         Lieutenant Colonel
10-13-2004    Phelan, Mark P.          Lieutenant Colonel
 7-28-2004    Greene, David S.         Lieutenant Colonel
10-26-2003    Buehring, Charles H.     Lieutenant Colonel
10-16-2003    Orlando, Kim S.          Lieutenant Colonel
 8-27-2003    Sherman, Anthony L.      Lieutenant Colonel
 5-19-2003    Baragona, Dominic Rocco  Lieutenant Colonel

No generals appear in the list. --Sean 17:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's a similar list for Afghanistan: 12 Colonels and Lt. Colonels, no generals:

 5-26-2009    Stratton, Mark E.        Lieutenant Colonel  
 9-18-2008    Wiley, James L.          Lieutenant Colonel  
 6-21-2008    Walton, James J.         Lieutenant Colonel  
 5-20-2008    Moore, Joseph A.         Lieutenant Colonel  
 1-11-2008    Berrettini, Richard J.   Lieutenant Colonel  
 6-01-2007    Robinson, Michael A.     Lieutenant Colonel  
 5-06-2007    Harrison Jr., James W.   Colonel             
 6-12-2006    Munier, Charles E.       Lieutenant Colonel  
 5-05-2006    Fenty, Joseph J.         Lieutenant Colonel  
11-27-2004    McMahon, Michael J.      Lieutenant Colonel  
10-03-2003    Kimbrough, Paul W.       Lieutenant Colonel  
 3-23-2003    Stein, John              Lieutenant Colonel  

--Sean 17:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

PS, I should note that I did not filter on cause of death, but they list it on those pages. If you want to do more sophisticated data munging, it would be straightforward to get the data into a spreadsheet as CSV. --Sean 17:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I took the liberty of doing this for you: here. --Sean 19:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Islamic factoids in Borges

1. Somewhere, off-handedly, Jorge Luis Borges refers to Muhammad being taken up to heaven, departing just as a bucket of water has been kicked over, and returning before a single drop of water has fallen. This is used to illustrate differences in the perception of time. My question is, where does this story come from? I know next to nothing of Islam, and would be curious to know if it is a bona fide Islamic tradition, either from the Qur'an or elsewhere, or if it is merely an artistic fabrication on Borges's part.

2. Somewhere else, also off-handedly, Borges mentions an event in Islamic eschatology: every creator of idols is confronted by his creations, which strike him as imperfect and deformed. Then the idolater and his creations are cast into hellfire. This factoid is used as a metaphor for the frustrations of the artist. It strikes me as a probable fabrication, but I'm not sure.

I don't even remember where I read these two things. If someone out there is more familiar with Borges or with Islam, I would appreciate being enlightened on either count. LANTZY^TALK 01:07, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

On factoid 1, that looks like a reference to Muhammad's ascension or Mi'raj. I don't know about factoid 2. Marco polo (talk) 02:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That article is a great help to me. LANTZY^TALK 02:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not sufficiently familiar with Spanish idiom, but in English the expression "to kick the bucket" is an old-fashioned euphemism for "to die". (I know this isn't exactly what the OP asked.) BrainyBabe (talk) 08:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

No. 1. is told in the Burak (or Buraq) entry of Book of Imaginary Beings. No. 2. is kind of the plot of The Circular Ruins buthe might have described it more specifically elsewhere it does sound familiar I will dig a little more. meltBanana 16:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Dhani Harrison

I have copied the following from the titled article:

Harrison's first name is pronounced similarly to the name Danny but with an aspirated 'd'. He is named after two notes of the Indian music scale, 'dha' and 'ni'.

If one or more of the linguists here could give us the/a definitive IPA for his name, we could put that in the article instead of the text shown. Thanks. // BL \\ (talk) 02:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If it's the same sound as in "dharma" then the IPA should be /d̪ʱ/. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:59, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

When I first heard him say it in an interview, I thought he said "Donny", not "Danny". Therefore, the IPA suggested by Adam Bishop looks correct to me. -- kainaw™ 04:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing from the above that you're an American, Kainaw. Would you differentiate between Donny and Dah-knee? Malcolm XIV (talk) 16:00, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It depends on the speaker. If it is an accent I'm not used to hearing, everything sounds funny. Since nearly everyone I work with is not an American, I am pretty good at tuning in to many different accents. -- kainaw™ 16:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I have just realized that, though I meant this question to go on the Language Desk, I obviously put it here on Humanities. I am grateful that (a) no one has chastised me and (b) Adam Bishop and Kainaw have provided answers. I do need the IPA for the whole of the name, however: Dhani Harrison. Thanks. (If someone feels the need to move this to the Language desk, please feel free. // BL \\ (talk) 14:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Will raising the Fixed Deposit rate induce in more savings?

With the current turmoil in the banking system all across the globe, will raising the FD rate induce more savings in the financial institutions ? Arteyu ? _{Blame it on me !} 07:19, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

It should induce more savings but not appreciably. What really increases savings is a bleak forecast of the economic future. Raising the FD rates will divert savings from shares, debentures, bonds, gold and all kinds of mixed funds. Raising FD rates will also raise the lending rates inturn hurting retail and institutional loans, hence curbing real growth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabilosha (talk • contribs)

The rate that should lead to changes in behavior is the real interest rate, that is, the deposit (lending) rate minus inflation. Since the US is running 2% deflation, real deposit rate are actually pretty high.DOR (HK) (talk) 04:07, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Struggling to be published

I'm a young writer who's been trying to get published for years, and it doesn't seem to getting me anywhere. I've searched all of the net and sent out queries and synopsises to various publishers, not to mention writing contests, but with no response. The story I wrote is a short story about how vulnerable today's family is, now all I need is to find someone willing to publish it. Do you know who can go with it and which ones will pay well for it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.202.139.241 (talk) 08:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried Self-publishing? Mitch Ames (talk) 12:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Two more helpful resources:

(1) If you think the reason for the rejections may be you haven't found the right publisher/method of landing a publisher, an invaluable resource would be the archives here: [2] - detailed advice on effectively submitting your work, written by a literary agent.

(2) If you think the reason may be the writing itself still needs work, read the archive here [3] - advice with a focus on improving your writing (voice, pace, overwriting, etc) from a published author (90 books) who got rejected for nearly 20 years before her first sale.

Sorry I don't have any resources specifically for short story writers. If you consider self-publishing, you might think about whether and how you could overcome the marketing difficulties (assuming you would like both to earn something and see the piece distributed widely). Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

My suggestion is to keep writing. Don't quit your day job yet, but keep at it. Publishing will not make you rich quickly; for most people, even being published doesn't guarantee any real money coming in. But you will only improve if you keep at it. Avoid self-publishing—it is just a waste of your own money. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:20, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I second 98's last point. Excluding certain special circumstances which do not include such fiction, a writer should never pay any money directly in order to get published, whether as "agents' fees" or anything else. Any such fees or expenses should come out of the money the writer is paid by the publisher after acceptance or publication. This does not include fees paid for writing courses or other tuition, which may sometimes be worthwhile. Another reputable blog you may find helpful is http://absolutewrite.com/ 87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

So far as I am aware, Lulu does not charge upfront fees to an author to publish; instead they take a percentage of the profit (sale price minus printing cost). This is based on my son's experience selling fiction through them. Note that I not recommending Lulu (nor am I saying you should not use them), merely pointing out that at least one self-publishing company does not require the author to pay. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

A P.S. on that, a ISBN number costs around $100. Amazon will list without an ISBN but not standard booksellers, who require it (Barnes and Noble, etc.) VЄСRUМВА  ♪  12:50, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The thing to remember about "self-publishing" services is that in reality most are largely printing and binding services. Publishing in the traditional model involves having an active marketing and sales force who are respected by booksellers and who actively and successfully promote their books to those sellers, who will generally not even consider stocking 99.9% of self-published works (I speak as a former professional bookseller and later publisher's editor). Having a garageful of self-financed volumes, which may not have passed through the refining process of professional editing, does not make one a published writer in most people's eyes. New internet-based models of publishing are only just beginning to emerge and have not yet become financially serious contenders to the traditional model, though they doubtless will in the indeterminate future.

The OP mentions only net-based attempts to find a publisher. "76", I would advise you to study current or recent editions of The Writers' and Artists' Yearbook or The Writer's Handbook (in the UK) or the equivalent publication in your own country if different, which should be available at any good public library, to find possible markets and further helpful advice. You also seems to imply having circulated only one story: you need to consider that, regardless of your own, your (tactful) friends' and your (loving) relations' opinions, your writing may simply not be good enough to publish - as has been suggested above, most successful writers spend many years and produce many unsuccessful attempts before achieving publication: one popular rule-of-thumb is that you have to write a million words of rubbish before you start to get good enough; this doesn't apply to a few rare individuals, but statistically, you're unlikely to be one of them. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 17:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

'Acquittal' from a death by hanging charge

Is it true that initially the murder sentence was commuted as '... shall be hung' but there was some lawyer who found out a loophole so that his client was only 'hung' but not executed. From then onwards they changed it to 'death by hanging' or 'hung until death'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.132.118.34 (talk) 13:38, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know which country you are thinking about but there was a change to the wording of the sentence of death in England and Wales in 1957. The traditional sentence was "that you shall be hanged by the neck until your body be dead". The Judges slightly revised the wording in 1903 to "you be hanged by the neck until you be dead". Reforms in the mid-19th century had already stretched the meaning of the sentence by aiming to break the prisoner's neck in the fall – the so-called 'long drop method' – so that death would actually occur in an instant. The sentence itself remained the same until 1948 when the House of Commons voted against capital punishment, and all death sentences were commuted to life imprisonment; it was thought appropriate to shorten the formula and so the sentence was changed to say that "unless His Majesty shall otherwise order, you shall suffer death by hanging". The House of Commons was overruled by the House of Lords and capital punishment returned, so the Judges reverted to the traditional sentence except that they retained "that you .. suffer death by hanging" instead of "hanged by the neck until you be dead". This form of words was approved by Parliament in the Homicide Act 1957. Sam Blacketer (talk) 14:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Why was "Dead" repeated 3 times in the judicial condemnation "Hanged by the neck until you are Dead, Dead, Dead, and may God have mercy on your soul?" See also, from 1777 [4]. This same weird and redundant formula was supposedly used in the U.S in sentencing of an outlaw, to which he is said to have replied "And you can go to Hell, Hell, Hell!" [5]. Edison (talk) 20:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Tho it doesn't answer your question, you may be interested in "Hanging from a historical and physiological point of view" from The Medical Times and Gazette, June 10, 1871.—eric 20:41, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

John Lee [6] had his sentence commuted after 3 failed attempts but it doesn't appear to have been a legal necessity Nil Einne (talk) 21:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanx alot guys, really appreciated the depth of your answers..I guess it was only an urban legend —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.34.195 (talk) 03:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Meleager (general)

Apparently Meleager is the son of Neoptolemus I of Epirus. Whom were the children of Meleager?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The rather extensive biography from Who's who in the age of Alexander the Great: prosopography of Alexander's empire by Waldemar Heckel makes no mention of children. He doesn't even know Meleager's wife's name or her family. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

What an excellent source! I read over and see what you mean. This source says the father of Arsinoe of Macedon was Meleager. It looks like this Meleager of Royal blood descended from Alexander I. Are we talking two differnet Meleagers do you suppose, OR could they be one and the same. The Meleager in the Google source is in the right time period as Alexander the great and could certainly have been one of his generals (I believe). Really interested in any additional information you might be able to find on Arsinoe. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 22:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't assume that Meleager's father Neoptolemus was the same person as Neoptolemus I of Epirus. Note that Who then was a gentleman's source doesn't say his father was the king. Also see Smith which separates the entry for Meleager's father from that of the king. --Cam (talk) 00:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Good point with Neoptolems. Do you see any blood relationship between Arsinoe of Macedon and Olympias, the mother of Alexander the Great? Example might be niece, sister, step-sister, aunt, etc. It appears that Arsinoe was a concubine of Phillip II and passed over to be the queen. Olympias became the queen instead. Would you say Arsinoe would be bitter because of this since it looks like she might have been from Royal blood and she became a prostitute instead?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 11:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Celibacy

When a man wants to become a priest, he must respect celibacy. Celibacy is to not have sexual relationships from that day forward or it means that person must be virgin. --190.50.85.101 (talk) 17:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, do you have a question?Popcorn II (talk) 18:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

There are men - even with children - who became catholic priests after their wife died. So, no, there is no need for a catholic priest to be "virgin". -- 91.45.103.122 (talk) 18:33, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

In fact it is theoretically permissable for a man with a living wife (and children) to become a Roman Catholic priest, although he might be required to refrain from sexual relations with her thereafter. I believe there have been rare instances of this, where the man in question was an Anglican priest who had converted. To answer the original question directly, celibacy does not require prior virginity.87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Episcopal priests are apparently "welcomed back into the fold", even if they have families. The celibacy policy for Catholic priests is based on the theory that they are "married to the Church". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:10, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

There was a more or less serious religious novel "The Accidental Pope" about a guy who left the priesthood to get married, started a family, then became widowed and ended up becoming Pope. IMO it wasn't very good, but it had some entertaining scenes involving the Pope's young children running around in the Vatican and getting underfoot. 67.122.211.205 (talk) 23:54, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as the Pope goes, there did not use to be a requirement for someone to be a priest to be elected Pope; Leo X was the last so elevated in the 1500's. Pope Paul III was a priest, but only shortly before becoming Pope; and he had several children legitimately, so it seems like the entire "celebate priest before becoming Pope" is a fairly recent idea. There have also been Pope's whose father has been pope, either legitimately, as with Pope Silverius, or illegitimately, as was suspected of some of the "Cardinal-nephew" later elevated to Pope. --Jayron32 03:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

And of course Pope Alexander VI was not only non-celibate, but flaunted his mistresses quite openly. --Pykk (talk) 09:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Marco Polo's pope, Pope Gregory X was famously not even a priest when elected pope (merely an archdeacon), and his immediate predecessor Pope Clement IV had fathered two daughters before entering the priesthood. As explained in the Clerical celibacy and Clerical_celibacy_(Catholic_Church) articles, the requirement of celibacy only applies to the Latin rite within the Catholic church (not to eastern rite Catholics) and limited exceptions can be made for married Protestant clergymen who convert to Catholicism... AnonMoos (talk) 06:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

This article concerns a father and son who are both catholic priests. The article says "They are allowed to stay within wedlock despite being priests in the Catholic Church but are expected to remain celibate." --ColinFine (talk) 23:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm very dubious about the last bit "but are expected to remain celibate", & reluctant to take the Indie's word for it. It's not in our article, which just says that if widowed they cannot remarrry. See also this which says nothing of the sort, and this which contradicts it. The married priest in the article is 70, so .... Johnbod (talk) 04:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Just a point of note - i recently went to Rome and visited the Vatican (amazing by the way) i took the usual touristic tour of the vatican before going it alone for a more deep look at the massive collection of art ect; On the tour it was told that quite a fgew popes used various rooms for mass orgies; so the idea of celabacy is some what distortedChromagnum (talk) 06:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Money Markets & Financial Institutions

When the Federal Reserve comes into the money market to mop up excess liquidity, banks put their money (the deposits) in the central bank at OPR plus a spread, which means they get more than 3.5%.” What are the tools used by the Federal Reserve to achieve the statement, and why the move is done in the money market rather than financial market ? 218.111.21.12 (talk) 19:49, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Just wondering...

Are business telephone customers billed for incoming calls? 74.64.121.56 (talk) 20:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If they operate freephone numbers, or single-rate numbers (like 0845) then they pay the excess. Other than that, business telephony billing is much like a buy-in-bulk equivalent of consumer telephone billing. They also get billed for services (which are often available to consumer too, but make more sense to business) like where your personal number rings in five different places in once; whether things like that are billed on a flat-rate or per-call depends on the business plan and the provider. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 20:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually 0845 numbers can actually generate money for the firm. If you're calling 0845, 0870 or similar numbers the phone company and the company share the revenue - see Non-geographical telephone numbers in the United Kingdom. Exxolon (talk) 00:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The NHS has now banned the use of these numbers--88.109.132.126 (talk) 01:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I am from the USA, and am concerned with regular phone numbers only, but I think Finlay answered my question. Thanks. 74.64.121.56 (talk) 19:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Qing Dynasty

Would China have been better off in the 19th centuries if the Qing Dynasty hadn't come along? If China had remain under the rule of a Han ethnic dynasty instead of the Manchu. Would China have modernized and become a constitutional monarchy like Thailand or Japan?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 21:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not a discussion forum to debate what might have happened. To keep it simple and on fact... The Ming Dynasty collapsed due to a failure in leadership, extreme corruption in government, a complete collapse of the economy, and multiple hardships such as famine, disease, and earthquakes. The Ming Dynasty was not in a position to regain power. It was just waiting to be overthrown. -- kainaw™ 21:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The period from ca. 1450 to 1800 was a period of overall population growth (interrupted by periods of turmoil) in China, as a number of Western-hemisphere crops were adopted, and the area under cultivation and the labor-intensity of agricultural methods increased. Other than such incremental agricultural improvements, and the political upheavals following the change of dynasties, there was no observable tendency to make or accept innovations that would transform the workings of the existing system in any major way, and few influences from Western cultures were accepted (other than certain astronomical observations, and some mechanical items which were regarded as basically exotic toys). I don't see what basis there would be to extrapolate a tendency towards limited constitutional monarchy (something rather alien to traditional Chinese culture, which had its own ideals of good government and good rulers) or an incipient industrial revolution... AnonMoos (talk) 06:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Getting Seed Capital

Let's suppose a guy wants to start a company that makes electronic goodies. To finance his venture, he approaches a Venture Capital (VC) firm. If he was any hopes to receive funding, must he have designs, patents, technology whitepapers, etc.? Or is an idea that is realistic, has simple designs for, and an effective marketing campaign sizeable enough for some VC's to give him funding? Thx for explaining, and respond on my talk page plz.--LastLived (talk) 21:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I have extensive knowledge of this subject due to being a fan of Dragons' Den! You need to show two main things - that there is a market for your product(s) (you need a good product and some market research) and that other people can't steal that market (a good patent will do that). It also helps to show that you (or a partner) has some entrepreneurial skill. It also helps if you have a significant amount of money that you have or can put into the business yourself. --Tango (talk) 21:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Be aware that if you don't have a patent, and you start telling other people about your idea, it can prevent you ever getting a patent. Be careful if you think you might ever want to apply for a patent. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I think VC types want to see the two criteria mentioned by Tango, but I think that they would also want to see a solid business plan. Marco polo (talk) 19:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

First Person

What's the oldest example of a story written in first person? TheFutureAwaits (talk) 23:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

If you are willing to count non-fiction works like memoirs and autobiographies then a good candidate is Confessions by St. Augustine. Still, other works even older are written in the first person; if you count poetry, then Song of Songs dates from the tenth century B.C. or so, and is written in the first person, from two different people. --Jayron32 03:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The answer to this depends on what is meant by "story," and also by "first person" and even "written." For example, the Odyssey is in the third person, but many of its most famous sections are told by Odysseus in flashback. This first-person flashback would have taken about 4 hours when recited in full and was probably sometimes presented on a stand-alone basis. The Odyssey was probably composed in the eighth century B.C. (probably earlier than the Song of Songs, which uses post-exilic language), but may not have been written down until later. John M Baker (talk) 05:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There are inscriptions composed in the first person by Sargon I, who reigned as king of the old-Assyrian Kingdom from ca. 1920 BCE to 1881 BCE. They are brief narrative reports--Wetman (talk) 09:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting. Thanks for your help! TheFutureAwaits (talk) 14:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The Story of Sinuhe from around 2000 BC is also told in first person. It seems a lot of ancient stories were written in first person, probably because they were meant to be acted out when told. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The Ten Commandments are in first person, by God no less. Not exactly a story, although God does tend to rant a bit, talking about how jealous He is of other gods and so on. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 10:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

September 14

Marriage

How common is it for two people to get married for reasons other than romantic interest in each other? And more specifically, how common is it for couples who are close friends, rather than lovers, get married? What are some of the reasons that a couple might get married without a romantic interest in each other? For the purposes of these questions, ignore forced and/or arranged marriages. Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 02:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There are various reasons. There are sexless marriages, spiritual marriages, marriages of convenience, lavender marriages, mariages blancs, etc. None of these necessarily involve coercion, so they seem to meet your specifications. It would probably be difficult to come up with statistics, because many of these arrangements are deliberately deceptive. LANTZY^TALK 02:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Assume in all my questions that the type of love is platonic love, in the form of a very close friendship. Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 03:02, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The Asexual community report some marriages of platonic love. Prokhorovka (talk) 08:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The actual question was "how common". To me that suggests a request for percentages or something. That might be pretty hard to track down. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, pretty much I was asking how common sexless, platonic (and willing) marriages are compared to romantic ones...Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 14:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I would point out that as our article mentions arranged marriages are often quite different from forced marriages. While some arranged marriages may have a degree of coercion, many couples do enter arranged marriages relatively willingly, even if they may later regret their decision Nil Einne (talk) 11:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Arranged marriages seem to work out pretty well. Marrying for fire and passion is what tends to ultimately make a marriage fail, if and when that fire and passion go on the back burner. "Forced" marriages would be "'cause there's a baby on the way". But it would be pretty hard to come up with a good answer to "how common". It would require finding surveys that ask questions like that. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I have seen the statistics showing arranged marriages working better than unarranged marriages, but I would interpret them with care - you need to take into account the acceptability of divorce in different cultures/legal systems. "Forced marriage" is usually used to refer to arranged marriages where one or other party is forced to go ahead with it. A marriage following an unplanned pregnancy is usually called a "shotgun marriage". --Tango (talk) 14:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The rise in divorce rate in America is often cited as somehow being an indicator of "moral downturn" in the country. Alan King said it much better: In the old days, divorce was a luxury, that few could afford. There was also a social stigma. So staying together was not proof of "happiness". Nor is it proof of such in arranged marriages. But carefully arranged marriages theoretically have a better chance, by trying to match people who should be compatible, which they themselves are not necessarily the best judge of, especially if they are "in love". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

If you've ever seen Gone With the Wind, there's some cogent social commentary about marriage. Scarlett marries for various reasons, none of them very sound. In contrast, her father at one point says, "What does it matter who you marry, as long as he is a southerner, and thinks like us." That's the cultural aspect in a nutshell. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Marriage for status and/or/in-exchange-for wealth. Pretty much the standard for choosing a partner among the old nobility. --Pykk (talk) 16:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Rough approximation of text length

Let's suppose that I have a printed document, not an electronic one, and must make a quick and dirty approximation of how many words it contains. I assume that some sort of simple algorithms exist for this purpose, but what are they? LANTZY^TALK 02:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Use a word processor to determine the word count of a page from a similar electronic document? Pollinosisss (talk) 02:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by "similar electronic document". To be clearer, let's say I have an old yellowing paperback and want to determine how many words it contains. Also, let's say I don't have a computer. How can I reach an approximate figure using only pencil, paper, and perhaps a calculator? I'm curious about how people determined the word length of long documents in the time before electronic word processing. LANTZY^TALK 02:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

First estimate the number of words per line. To do this I would suggest counting words for several lines, and then dividing by the number of lines you counted. The more lines in your sample the better. Then count the lines per page on a typical page. Then look at the number of pages. Then multiply. Rckrone (talk) 02:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

For a more accurate estimate, flip through the document and correct for pages that are only partly full, i.e. those with illustrations, the last page, that sort of thing. Count them as the appropriate fraction of a page according to how full they are. Also, if the document has blocks of text that aren't formatted like the rest (long quotations written on shorter lines, long footnotes in small print, etc.), do a separate calculation for each kind of formatting. --Anonymous, 04:53 UTC, September 14, 2009.

This site may be worth looking at [7]Pollinosisss (talk) 03:27, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this is an interesting and helpful site. LANTZY^TALK 17:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

BLR ?

What does it means by “BLR plus X rate" and “BLR minus X" ? Arteyu ? _{Blame it on me !} 05:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

In what context? Disambiguation page BLR suggests "Base Lending Rate" as a possibility... AnonMoos (talk) 06:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Ya, BLR in this case refers to "Base Lending Rate" Arteyu ? _{Blame it on me !} 06:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It is used for variable rate mortgages and loans. If you have, a loan at BLR+3% then when the BLR is 1% your rate will be 4%. --- Q Chris (talk) 11:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Over here we use "Best" lending rate, rather than "Base." DOR (HK) (talk) 04:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Photo of child Holocaust victim

There is an iconic photograph of a young boy, about 10 years old, arriving at one of the concentration camps during WWII. He is wearing a jacket with the yellow star on it , a cap and he has arms above his head as presumably someone is holding a gun on him. Does anyone know which one I mean? Has it ever been established who that little boy was and whatever happened to him? I know he was probably murdered, but just on the off chance that someone knows a little background. Thanks!196.37.99.82 (talk) 06:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you're thinking about a famous picture not from a concentration camp, but from the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. It's on that page. The image caption says the boy may have been Tsvi Nussbaum, who actually survived the Holocaust. --Pykk (talk) 09:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

(ec) If you mean this famous photo, the description page says that the boy has not been positively identified, though there are some suggestions as to who he may have been. It does not say what the fate of those persons was. —Kevin Myers 09:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Central Africain trade unions; C.G.A.T.

While googling for material for expanding Confédération générale des travailleurs africains, I came across Confédération générale aéfienne du travail and started and article on it. At least nine books at google books mention CGAT. But when googling for 'Confédération générale africaine du travail', I got much more results. Are these the same organizations? One could guess that CG africain T would be a later name adopted after independence. Another explanation would be that the former name would be an error, but 'aefienne' (of AEF) is such an unusual word, so it appears unlikely that a writer would have come up with the name him/herself. [8], page 92, mentions both CGTK and CGAT as separate orgs (with CGAT not having branch in Cameroon). Perhaps CG aefienne T was divided into CGTK and CG africaine T when AEF was dissolved? Any info would be appreciated. --Soman (talk) 07:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Biological rythmns in schooling

Didn't some Scandinavian country institute school hours that were compatible with the actual biological rhythms of teenagers ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rachmaninov Khan (talk • contribs) 10:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I remember reading some news stories about this idea a few months ago. Here's one: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/mar/08/teenagers-sleep-education-secondary-school but it doesn't mention Scandinavia. 81.131.42.38 (talk) 19:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There was a proposal for a new North Auckland, New Zealand school to adopt such hours. See School bell delay to let students 'wake up'. I don't know what happened to the proposal.-gadfium 05:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that "biorhythms" are anything more than quackery? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 10:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe they're referring to Circadian rhythms, not to the rigid 23-28-33 day quasi-astrological cycles which are sometimes called biorhythms... AnonMoos (talk) 13:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Cognitive (dis)abilities and Down syndrome

If you had to test only the cognitive abilities of a person with Down syndrome, what would you find? Is there something specific of Down syndrome?--Mr.K. (talk) 11:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Mr.K. I know you like to ask a lot of questions here, but a lot of them are already answered here in the encyclopedia. Please check that out first, otherwise you just look lazy or that you don't care about wasting our time. The answer to your question can be found at Down's_syndrome#Cognitive_development. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 11:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Do I like to ask a lot of questions here? Perhaps wikipedia pays me for this.

Anyway, is there anything really specific about Down syndrome? The article is not completely clear (excluding the part of speech, which I didn't think at when I thought about cognitive abilities...).--Mr.K. (talk) 12:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Take a look at [9] for a serious comparative study between mental retardation and Down syndrome. Quest09 (talk) 15:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

BA (HONS) BUSINESS FINANCE & BSC(HONS) BUSINESS FINANCE

What is the difference between BA(Hons) Business Finace and BSC(Hons) Business Finance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onugba (talk • contribs) 13:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Probably nothing. Different universities give different degree titles for the same subject (I have a BA in theoretical physics). If you are choosing between different universities focus on the quality and content of the course, not the title. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Generally speaking, if it is offered by the same university, then a BA degree is more "liberal arts" with focus on breadth (i.e. more classes outside of the major) while a BS or BSc degree is more concentrated (with more classes in the major). However, there is no real way to draw a correlation between universities (i.e. comparing a BA offered at one school and a BS offered at another). Your best option is to consult with a career counselor or, better yet, at the people who do the hiring at a prospective employer. However, the three most important things you can do to get a job are a) NETWORKING! (its who you know!) b) getting ANY university degree and c) your grades; in roughly that order. --Jayron32 19:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Inheritance

I'm wondering roughly who gets what if someone dies without leaving a will, and who it is that decides these proportions. I guess I'm searching the wrong words; there's doubtless an article or web page which can tell me, somewhere... Vimescarrot (talk) 13:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to mention: Primarily focussing on Britain, though I'm interested in other places too. Vimescarrot (talk) 13:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

In America, at least, dying intestate triggers various laws to kick in, whose purpose is to specifically cover such cases. In the USA those laws vary state-by-state. As far as I know, the federal government does not get involved except in the area of taxation, when applicable. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

We have an article Intestacy. Algebraist 13:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Using the keyword "intestate" gives this breakdown of how the estate is shared out. I assume it's referring to England and Wales; Scottish mileage may vary. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 13:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a lower limit for estates, beneath which the taxman just isn't interested - when I was sorting out my late father's estate (he died intestate in 2004), as it was beneath the £15,000 threshold, I just had to sort it all out myself. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The articles you are looking for are Intestacy and Bona vacantia. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Cadmus-Harmony painting ID request

Anyone knows the painter and the title of the cover image of Roberto Calasso's The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony?

→ image

Thanks --Scriberius (talk) 16:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The lady's got a box. The guy's got a caduceus. So: "Pandora carried off by Mercury" by Jean Alaux. (picture) --Pykk (talk) 16:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Geez thanks, now uploaded towards Commons (year?) --Scriberius (talk) 23:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Historicity

Is there any consensus regarding who is the earliest non-mythical figure in recorded history? TheFutureAwaits (talk) 16:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

One plausible candidate is Enmebaragesi, the earliest king on the Sumerian king list to be archaeologically verified. Another candidate is Narmer, who predated Enmebaragesi by several centuries, but I'm not sure if Narmer is strictly historical. LANTZY^TALK 17:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Several poorly attested Egyptian kings predate even Narmer. Tiu and King Scorpion are not thought to be mythical. See List of Pharaohs. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 03:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Iran and North Korea

Are Iran and North Korea allies? --204.184.214.2 (talk) 17:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Normally our article Iran – North Korea relations would be the place to look. It's a very short article but describes the relationship as "positive", and there are some references to Web news stories that may provide more detailed information. They are apparently cooperating with regards to Iran's nuclear program. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

They cooperate on certain technical things, and have some mutual interests, but otherwise they don't overlap a lot. Iran does not really see itself as a similar kind of regime as North Korea (and really, it isn't very similar, except that it is it a kerfuffle about nuclear things and is opposed specifically to the United States). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 20:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Their relationship can be summed up as the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Which doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. The Soviet Union and China were not particularly good friends. China and Vietnam were not friends. Iraq and Al-Qaeda were not friends. The list goes on and on... Contrary to what some Americans seem to think, the mutual relationships of the nations of the world does not revolve entirely around their relationship with the USA. --Pykk (talk) 12:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Presumably Muslims, if any, don't have it good in North Korea, ditto Communists in Iran. I understand that Stalin was allied to Hitler, while Hitler was clamping down on German Communists, and Hitler tolerated Mussillini's clampdown on German being spoken in northern Italy.192.30.202.13 (talk) 16:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Text lengths of notable documents

This is somewhat related to my previous question. Wikipedia articles about notable books frequently mention how long they are, but tend to specify the number of pages. Is there a website where I might learn the word count of specific noteworthy books? (Incidentally, my Google searches have been futile. Every return has been something along the lines of "Is your manuscript the right length?") LANTZY^TALK 17:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Amazon.com has statistics for some of their books (I don't know what percentage; I assume just the ones you can search in). For example, here's the page for one of my favorite books, The Making of the Atomic Bomb. It has 316,487 words, a 279 word per gram value! --Sean 18:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

According to google there are 4400 words in the US Constitution. Mac Davis (talk) 18:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Usama bin Laden new audio tape

The message, entitled "A statement to the American people", was approximately 10 minutes long and appeared on a website often used by supporters of al Qaeda.

I would like the newest audio tape released by Usama bin Laden. I can't find it anywhere. They have played it on the news so it must not be classified, and I am sure supporters of al Qaeda have interest in many people hearing it. What website is this, and how can I get the audio? Thank you! Mac Davis (talk) 18:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd love to try to find the answer to your question but am afraid that finding and navigating to that website would put me on a terrorist watchlist. Not wishing to be surveilled, I don't want to go there. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 18:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Riiiight. You really think the government has the time to do blind surveillance on everyone who searches for "osama bin laden statement"? If it already has that capacity, then you are already probably being surveilled. If it doesn't or isn't, then you probably won't be no matter what you search for. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 20:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You are living pretty far behind the times if you think that "having the time" is a constraint on surveillance anymore. Surveillance is no longer performed by human police officers reading text or listening to your phone conversations. It is all automatically sniffed and archived by government products like Carnivore and Project Echelon. Visiting certain sites and saying certain things on certain phone calls surely will get you added to various lists — not necessarily any list that is ever read by a human, but it's entirely believable that the automated surveillance on you will be stepped up. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm well aware of such mass programs, but I've yet to see them actually be able to successfully pick individuals out of the mire and make trouble for them. Again, we're either all probably already being watched, or we're probably not being watched. I say this as someone who searches for "scary" topics regularly and has yet to have difficulty flying, for example. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

You can find lots of clips on YouTube, e.g. here. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 20:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

A brand new tape? Not bad for a guy who's supposedly dead, if you believe the conspiracy theorists. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone ever compile the texts of these speeches anywhere? (Preferrably in Arabic and in English?) Adam Bishop (talk) 01:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Here are his 1996 and 1998 fatwas. Interesting to read.[10][11]. Many Qur'an quotes. His grievances in just about everything he publishes involve one of four things: The U.S. had been supporting apostate dictatorships in the Muslim world, given one-sided support to Israel, occupied holy land such as the Arabian Peninsula, and enforced brutal sanctions on the Iraqi people that had left hundreds of thousands of Muslims, mostly children, dead. Apparently the newest tapes lacks Qur'an quotes so much and he talks mostly about Isreal. He drops a lot of lines from American culture, like The Obama Deception, "neoconservatives," and things. Thanks for the video link, mysterious IP. Mac Davis (talk) 12:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

As for who compiles them, apparently IntelCenter (the source of this tape to the media) makes their money this way. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It's being discussed here. It was the first hit on Google search for the title of the video. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 17:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

For a kick, I once searched "car bomb the Whitehouse" on Google and got one innocuous hit, and no cops visiting me. :-)192.30.202.13 (talk) 16:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

London theatre tickets - where is a safe place to buy on the day?

I'm going to London at the weekend. I'd like to go to the theatre and I'm very open to seeing anything (bar Andrew Lloyd Webber). While I can browse online between now and then, I can't buy (as the people I'm going with are out of contact until Friday, and are fickle types at that). Where (physically) can I go in London to buy tickets, other than the individual theatre box offices (where, that is, that's safe - that won't sell me fakes)? I seem to remember there being a big booth thing in Leicester Square - the article for the square suggests that it's the one operated by TKTS (and says there are other, perhaps dodgy, ones too). Is that one reliable, and if so is it the one which has tkts.co.uk as its website? Where else might I go? I'm quite willing to leave content to providence, but I don't want to get duped into buying tickets for Ofello with Benny Henri in the back room of some pub. 87.113.10.108 (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I cannot vouch for it, but the Leicester Square booth does look the real deal to me. Some more info here, from a website run by the Society Of London Theatre, which, again, looks like the real deal. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Most hotels have a theatre desk, and I have never had a problem with the tickets. There is a service charge; it wasn't much as I recall. The desks also have all the posters and brochures and a calendar of everything that is showing, and you can usually take your time in deciding. The ones I have used also have seating plans. I don't think you have to be staying at the hotel to use the service, but I am not sure of this. // BL \\ (talk) 23:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah the white pagoda-looking building in Leicester Square is 100% legit and the only one you should use. Don't go and see Blood Brothers, it's rubbish.--Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely go to the Leicester Square ticket booth. You'll get tickets for every show except the ones that are totally sold out. It's safe, legit, and cheap. If you ask a hotel desk they will probably go to Leicester Square, buy the tickets, and charge you a markup for doing it. The only exception is if you absolutely have to see the current sold-out smash hit. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

September 15

Conflict thesis?

Is the claim in the conflict thesis article--namely, that the thesis has been discredited--accurate? It seems like it is, but after reading more about history, I'm beginning to doubt it.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.234.104 (talk) 02:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The idea that science and religion are somehow in conflict is really only something that is used by politicians when it is convenient to make it seem so when they come up for election. Historically, many major European scientists were very religious (Isaac Newton) or even clerics themselves (Nicholas Copernicus and Gregor Mendel). Lots of devout people of all faiths have been and are currently active in scientific pursuits. There have been isolated conflicts between religious people and scientific people, but this is different from the ideas of the "conflict thesis". That idea holds that there are irreconcilable differences between a scientific worldview and a religious worldview. This is clearly not true. If you want to read a great, fairly short, and well accessable book which pretty handily refutes conflict thesis, then you should pick up Rocks of Ages by Stephen Jay Gould. --Jayron32 02:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Dawkins has a thing or two to say about that in The God Delusion. "Gould carried the art of bending over backwards to positively supine lengths in one of his less admired books, Rocks of Ages." 81.131.28.218 (talk) 02:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Science and the general concept of religion aren't in conflict, but science is certainly in conflict with most particular religions. For example, The Bible says life was created in a week about 6000 years ago, science says it evolved over the last few billion years - that is a conflict. Yes, most Christians choose to ignore that bit of the Bible since it is rather inconvenient, but that just makes them inconsistent. --Tango (talk) 02:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

A modern name to add to the list is the current director of the NIH, an evangelical Christian (but not the crazy kind, apparently, as the Intelligent Design crowd seems to be embarrassed by him). --Sean 15:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I've just gone and actually read the first few sentences of the article and I'm misinterpreting the question/thesis! It is talking about a historic conflict between religious people and scientists, not a logical conflict between the ideas, sorry. I think a conflict between religious people and scientifically minded people is a fairly recent occurrence, really. Historically there wasn't really a distinction - all educated people (in Europe, at least) would have studied theology and would have been religious (at least in practice, they might not of actually believed it, but they would have gone to church - many, like Newton, clearly did believe it very strongly). --Tango (talk) 02:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It looks like Jayron (and initially, Tango) thought I was talking about whether science and religion contradict each other, not whether they were historically opposed. I meant the latter. I certainly don't need the reference desk to decide whether two ideas contradict each other; all I need to do is to read the ideas (in this case, the Bible and a biology/astronomy/cosmology textbook) and decide for myself.

Thanks for the answers so far! I was concerned about religious bias in the articles I find on the Internet. So, it looks like the article is accurate, then? --99.237.234.104 (talk) 03:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Coming in a bit late, but I'd like to recommend the book "Einstein's Luck", also published as "Fabulous Science", by John Waller. While certainly harbouring no religious or anti-science bias, it contains, among other intriguing stuff, a nice account of how the 19th century "battle" between the church and "Darwin's bulldogs" really went down. According to Waller's hypothesis, it was (in Britain at least) less about science versus religion than it was about up-and-coming, middle-class, professional researchers versus old-fashioned privileged gentleman scientists. And by the way, if you want to see someone bending over backwards but in the opposite direction, check out Christopher Hitchens trying to make the founding fathers of the U.S. into atheists.--Rallette (talk) 06:20, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Amongst professional historians of science, the conflict thesis is seen as pretty much discredited. How do they do so, in the face of, say, Galileo? Simple. They say, "Galileo wasn't a fundamental conflict between science and religion. It was a localized power conflict between Galileo and agents of the Inquisition." That is, it's a difference between saying there are fundamental issues at heart and whether you are talking about a localized issue (e.g. Galileo is deliberately defying the reigning power in his region just at a time when they feel the need to consolidate it for political purposes). Ditto Darwin and the Creationists—not about science v. religion, per se, but about the specific conditions of modernizing science in Victorian society, and what that represented. Or, in the modern era, one would suggest that the current Creationist debate has really very little to do with science v. religion, but the politics of religious fundamentalism, esp. in the United States.

Another main objection to the conflict thesis is that thinking about the interactions of science and religion in terms of the relatively few conflicts is misleading. A majority of the time, they got along reasonably well, and for every example one has of religion apparently antagonizing science (and vice versa), you have probably dozens more examples of scientists being inspired by, funded by, or otherwise engaged by religion. (Or, put another way, for every Galileo, you have a Newton.)

Sometimes the ways of wriggling out of the conflict thesis seem either a bit too hair-splitting or even ridiculous—like assertions that Galileo's interaction with the Inquisition should not be called a "conflict" but rather a "dialogue". (Yes, this has actually been argued. Yes, it is as silly as it sounds.) Alas, such is the way of academia. Nonetheless, I do think it is worth emphasizing that the conflict thesis from a historical standpoint is at best a distortion of its own, and rather extreme. There are plenty of examples to counter the idea that science and religion have interacted primarily by "conflict" historically—the Church was one of the major patrons of science for hundreds of years. Just the same, there have been a number of "conflicts" and perhaps that's the best way to describe them, and some of these conflicts have, in fact, centered largely on fundamental questions about who has the right to say what, which most people would agree is something core to the functions of both science and religion, even if there are also always tons of localized political factors involved. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 13:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Famous critics of university

I'm giving a presentation and I want to show a continual trend of people criticizing modern university for a segue. For example, Tolstoy argued that universities require student to memorize and regurgitate while ignoring their own thoughts that may differ from the instructor. Seeley claimed that a university can be good at advancing science or educating students, but not both. What are some modern (1900's) critics? -- kainaw™ 02:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean from any time in the 20th c., or just the first decade of it? 81.131.28.218 (talk) 03:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Pirsig's Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance:_An_Inquiry_into_Values comes into mind. The novel -besides other topics - also describes the author's experiences at university. Here an excerpt from it:

Schools teach you to imitate. If you don't imitate what the teacher wants you get a bad grade. Here, in college, 
it was more sophisticated, of course; you were supposed to imitate the teacher in such a way as to convince the
teacher you were not imitating, but taking the essence of the instruction and going ahead with it on your own. 
That got you A's. Originality on the other hand could get you anything...from A to F. The whole grading system 
cautioned against it. 

And there is much more against universities in it. Quest09 (talk) 10:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not specifically about university, but it has pure Bertrand Russell pithiness: "Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid as a result of education." Matt Deres (talk) 12:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I wish I could recall who it was (possibly Clement Freud) who said that universities teach the "six R's - remedial reading, remedial 'riting, remedial 'rithmetic." Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Look for a book titled 'Tenured Radicals'; also, Allan Bloom's 'The Closing of the American Mind' touches on this subject. Rhinoracer (talk) 13:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Richard Feynman, in one or other of his two popular autobiographical works -

(Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!: Adventures of a Curious Character, with contributions by Ralph Leighton, W. W. Norton & Co, 1985, ISBN 0-393-01921-7, and

What Do You Care What Other People Think?: Further Adventures of a Curious Character, with contributions by Ralph Leighton, W. W. Norton & Co, 1988, ISBN 0-393-02659-0) -

describes being commissioned by the Government of, I think (don't quote me, read the books), Brazil to examine their university science teaching programs and determine why they were failing to produce many good scientists. One of his conclusions was that the students were being taught to regurgitate abstract formulae and descriptions but not to connect these with any actual phenomena in their everyday experience; thus they could say that light reflected from a surface is polarised and even write down relevant equations, but could not think of any actual examples even when they were sitting at a polished table with a view throught the window of the sun sparkling off the sea. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 13:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It was indeed Brazil. I'm not sure if he used the phrase, but he was basically describing cargo cult education. In his popular essay on the textbook procurement process, Feynman describes how at the elementary level they don't even try to make science relevant to the real world. "Do all stars have an "S" in them?" How wonderful we have all memorized and regurgitated these examples for Kainaw! --Sean 15:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks all. I was able to add a line of guys with little blurbs and it led very well from making note of the "memorization-regurgitation" problem to our modern solution: powerpoint slides! Now, how much more sarcasm can I sink into praise of the powerpoint solution? -- kainaw™ 14:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

My favorite is from H.L. Mencken: "Let us not burn the universities - yet. After all, the damage they do might be worse.... Suppose Oxford had snared and disemboweled Shakespeare! Suppose Harvard had rammed its buttermilk into Mark Twain!" Weepy.Moyer (talk) 17:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

You might profitably trawl through Kingsley Amis's essays where he warned against the post-WW11 expansion of universities, with his much-quoted aphorism: 'More will mean worse'.

You might look into the twin revolutions of the University system at the start of the 19th century: Napoleon's creation of the Grande Ecole system, as a rational, meritocratic rival to the University; and the establishment, in Berlin, of the world's first research-oriented university,Humboldt University. Actually, universities have always been denounced. Even in the Middle Ages they were frowned upon as potential hotbeds of heresy. Rhinoracer (talk) 18:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Also take a look at the book A Tenured Professor, a novel by John Kenneth Galbraith, Publish or perish for critics of specific aspects of a university.--Quest09 (talk) 19:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Non-resident American able to drive in America?

Here's an unusual situation: I'm an American, but have lived overseas for many years (currently a resident of China) and my US driver's license has long since expired. I have no legal residence in the U.S., but will be visiting there in Spring 2010. My understanding is that foreigners with legal driver's licenses in their home country are able to drive while visiting the States, but I'm not a foreigner... Stuck in a bit of a gray area as I am, I'm having trouble finding a definitive answer. I suspect this is a Federal matter, but I would most likely be driving in the Gulf Coast states if that's relevant. Can someone on the RefDesk help me? I submit that this falls firmly into the realm of legal reference, rather than legal advice... Thank you. 218.25.32.210 (talk) 06:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

No, it does not fall in the realm of legal reference (whatever it may be). Answering if you can drive in the US would be legal advice. --Quest09 (talk) 08:08, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

This is silly. Yes, it would be legal advice to tell him whether he could or could not drive. However, it would not be legal advice to refer him to the relevant statutes or resources. We can discuss our own experiences and refer the poster to resources. I would recommend the poster contact the DMV of whichever state he'll be visiting to ask. This situation must come up fairly often considering how many expats come out of the US. TheFutureAwaits (talk) 08:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Quest09, thank you for not helping! Thank you, TheFutureAwaits, for understanding the intent of my question. I was hoping someone could help me find online documentation. I've been through the State Department site and the Florida DMV pages and haven't been able to get ANYTHING remotely related. Nor can I find anything on Google about American expats driving in America with foreign DLs. I'm not asking for interpretation, hence the reference rather than advice. 218.25.32.210 (talk) 08:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

My non-help was not motivated by bad-faith or just to complain with the rules. The question is much more tricky that we might think. First, I doubt that you are right when you said that "My understanding is that foreigners with legal driver's licenses in their home country are able to drive while visiting the States". Driving without a valid DL can get you into serious trouble. Therefore, you'll need legal advice. Quest09 (talk) 08:39, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

[12] says that via an International Driving Permit & a valid license in your home country foreigners are ok. However, I'm still in legal purgatory! 218.25.32.210 (talk) 09:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That is not exactly the same case as earlier. And yes, you still need legal advise, specially if you have had a US DL and you lost it. Quest09 (talk) 09:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Since you've been unable to track down any online information, surely the next best thing is to pick up the phone and call whoever might know the answer. If you're in China and don't want to rack up international call charges, why not call your nearest US embassy? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

If you drive while you're in China, why not apply for an International Driving Licence? Malcolm XIV (talk) 09:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not clear that US citizens can just apply for an International DL. Just imagine that you have lost your DL while DUI. You could travel to Mexico or Canada and come back with an IDL. Possibly, there is some restriction against that. Quest09 (talk) 09:59, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That wouldn't help you to get around the ban, though, would it? As 218 points out, an international driving licence is only valid in conjunction with a valid licence in your home country. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but what is your home country? For a US citizen in the US, I could say, is it the US or not? Answering this question, since you would be interpreting laws, is already legal advise, which we don't give here in the RD. Quest09 (talk) 10:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, the suggestion is only that he apply for an IDL. That says nothing about whether or not he will actually receive it. All of which supports my already stated view that the only correct answer to the OP's question is not "we don't give legal advice" but "pick up the phone and talk to the authorities". --Richardrj ^{talk email} 11:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Not giving legal advice implies, according to some fundamentalist interpretations, not even saying "pick up the phone" and find someone who can help you. Quest09 (talk) 11:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Three things which I feel confident saying, despite the restrictions on giving legal advice. The pages I've read don't make any restriction about it being only foreigners who can drive on a foreign license. This page just says "tourists", and that's you, if you are visiting. Also six months is probably more than enough time to get your US license renewed. At the very least, phone the DMV in the state you'll be visiting and check the legal situation with them. And finally, yes of course US citizens can apply for a IDP. What do you think they do when they want to drive abroad? DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

• I meant actually US citizens applying for a IDL to drive in the US. Quest09 (talk) 19:00, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I know you meant that. But the point is that there is no bar on US citizens applying for an IDP. In fact I wasn't asked about citizenship. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Does 218.25.32.210 even have a Chinese drivers license? He never stated that he is driving in China, and I understand that many there use mass transit or walk places. Why couldn't he just have someone drive him to a motor vehicle office in any state, with all his ID papers, and take the written and driving tests, and walk away with a valid US license? Edison (talk) 14:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

So are you going to be renting a car? I think the simplest thing would be to call Avis or whatever, explain exactly what you have by way of drivers license and see if they'll rent a car to you. If they will, I think it's pretty safe to assume you're in the clear. I'm almost certain they'll have no problem with a license from elsewhere. If you don't have a valid, current license from elsewhere, as Edison points out, they're not going to let you rent a car and it would be illegal to do so. TastyCakes (talk) 18:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

A very little googling comes up with the following: The American Automobile Association is one of only two authorities in the US that can issue an IDP. The information I have summarized here is principally from its website. To qualify for an IDP issued in the US, the driver must have a valid US driver’s licence. This site maintains that an IDP must always be issued by the nation from which the driver has obtain his/her driver’s licence. As China is not a signatory to the Geneva agreement of 1949, one cannot obtain an IDP from China. The IDP is valid only when carried in conjunction with, and acts as a translation of, a driver's license. It does appear that you will not be licensed to drive in the US unless (a) you first obtain a domestic licence from a country that also issues IDPs, and you also get an IDP from that country or (b) you re-qualify for a US licence. Citizenship does not appear to be the issue, though some jurisdictions issuing national driver's licences have a residency requirement. // BL \\ (talk) 16:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

OP returns! ... with a response from the FL DMV:

Thank you for your recent inquiry.

You may drive in Florida without a Florida driver license, if you have a valid license from another state or country and if you are a non-resident up to 1 year . You are considered a resident of Florida if you: Enroll your children in public school, or Register to vote, or File for a homestead exemption, or Accept employment, or Reside in Florida for more than six consecutive months.

We hope this information will assist you.

09/16/09

so there you have it. Thanks to everyone who tried to help. 61.189.63.208 (talk) 22:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Welsh History grants

I'm currently finishing my MA, and in a few years hope to go on to do my PhD in History, focusing on a biography of Gwilym Lloyd George, son of David Lloyd George. However, times ar hard (enter chrous of violins) and being given money would certainly makes things easier. Are there any institutes in Wales, official, public or private, that give out grants for research into Welsh history? Any info would be gratefully received. Cheers, Skinny87 (talk) 09:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you live in Wales? I'm sure that Universities and Colleges that do History Phds would have more information on funding your Phd. This pageis for a History Phd at Bangor university, and it has a phone number and email to contact the tutor. On that page it mentions that you can get funding from the Arts & Humanities Research Board; ESRC (Mode B); and occasional scholarships and bursaries. The tutor would obviously know more about the occasional funding available. I also found this page about funding postgraduate research at Aberystwyth University. This page is from Cardiff University and mentions funding near the bottom.Snorgle (talk) 22:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Historical person obsessed with synchronizing clocks

I vaguely remember a story about a person, I think a historical person, possibly a king, who in his old age spent most of his time trying to keep all the clocks in his palace/residence in sync. The story fits nicely into a presentation that I'm working on, if only I were able to remember who this person was. Does the story ring a bell with anyone? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 15:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Probably not the historical figure you are looking for, but Doc Brown in Back to the Future seemed obsessed with syncing clocks. Googlemeister (talk) 16:15, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

There are the monks and Jeremy Clockson in Thief of Time, but that is definitely fiction, and more about balancing time than synchronising it. // BL \\ (talk) 16:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks both! I don't think it was fiction, but if it were, the story would be a lot older than these. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 18:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Douglas Adams touches on this idea in one of the Dirk Gentley books. Can't remember which book was which, but it was the one with Reg, the time-traveller. Reg mentions that George IV (I think!) was obsessed with making sure time kept going forward as his past was so horrible he didn't want to revisit it. No idea if there's a historical basis for that, but that may be where you picked up the idea. Matt Deres (talk) 18:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Mad king ludwig Ludwig II of Bavaria immediately springs to minds - but does seem to be the one, then there is King George III who was mad, and introduced a tax on all clocks, then there is Charles II of England and Louis XVI of France both possibly fond of clocks - at a time when clocks where new scientific instruments, both having quite a few clocks. These might be it.77.86.47.174 (talk) 19:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

There is an anecdote that Immanuel Kant was a perfectionist about time. When going for his daily walk at a certain hour the inhabitants of the town set their watches accordingly. It is said that he was always on time. Another anecdote, however, tells the story of Kant reading a book by Hume, which kept him indoors for several days. Unsurprisingly, when Kant stopped showing up on his daily walk, the people of the town became worried of Mr Kant's health status.Ostracon (talk) 09:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I remember the anecdote as saying that it was when Kant departed from his rigid daily schedule that the inhabitants of Koenigsberg first knew that the French revolution might be really serious... AnonMoos (talk) 10:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Found the source -- that's how it's told in Chapter 3 of The Age of Revolution: 1789-1848 by E.J. Hobsbawm... AnonMoos (talk) 10:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

George III, I believe. Rhinoracer (talk) 10:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. I've done a bit of googling based on the alternatives offered, without finding references to the story I'm looking for. I'm pretty sure it wasn't Kant. Ludwig rang a bell with me, but I've found no reference to the story itself, i.e. a person trying to syncronize the clocks just for the sake of it, doing a difficult but pointless task. Given that the story appears to be less well known that I thought, does anyone have suggestions for alternatives? A historical person doing a laborious meticulous task, just for the sake of getting it exactly right, even though it's pretty obvious that getting it exactly right is unimportant? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 12:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I suppose Sisyphus wouldn't count, since his is not a voluntary task? TomorrowTime (talk) 13:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Correct. Moreover, the task should be meticulous, with pointless attention to detail. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 19:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Edward VII famously went in the other direction. --Sean 14:08, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Falsely claiming to have been awared medals/decorations in the armed forces...

Is this illegal in the UK - like it is in the US, under the Stolen Valor Act of 2005? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 18:19, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

The only relevant act is the Uniforms Act 1894, which makes it illegal for a civilian to wear a military uniform (except during plays and the like). That includes "any dress having the appearance or bearing any of the regimental or other distinctive marks" which may arguably include medals, although I don't think it has been enforced in recent years. See Alan Mcilwraith for an example which included Wikipedia; he was not prosecuted. Sam Blacketer (talk) 19:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. After happening across the US law today whilst researching something else, I was reminded of a man who used to drink in a bar where I worked (whom actually sounds a lot like this Mcilwraith character). This guy claimed to be ex Paratroop Regiment and that he'd been awarded the Victoria Cross for service in the Falklands after bayoneting 25 Argentine soldiers in their sleep whilst trapped behind enemy lines. Then he'd apparently worked for MI6, carrying out assassinations in various places around the world (but he wasn't really supposed to talk about it). At some point, he'd racked up a ludicrous number of kills as a sniper too. It completely astounded me that some people actually seemed to take the drunken, mendacious old fraud at his word. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 21:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Pact with devil - story

Can anyone pin down this vaguely faust like story:

A man has a very harsh and bad life, suffering much (loss of parents, poverty etc), up till a point where somehow he meets the devil - he makes a pact the devil will give him all he wants in exchange for 30 years of his life, he accepts - and everything goes well... The twist is that the man discovers that the devil has tricked him, and taken the first 30 years of his life...

The details may not be accurate - can anyone identify this (I wonder if something like the 'twighlight zone' or 'tales of the unexpected' did this story?)77.86.47.174 (talk) 19:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

No answer yet. Maybe you would have more luck on entertainment desk? Googlemeister (talk) 20:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Ramadan fasting at extreme latitudes

How do muslims in, say, northern Sweden (or any other place at a very northern or southern latitude) deal with Sawm, especially during the local summer? What about fasting north or south of the polar circles when there's midnight sun? 79.194.40.66 (talk) 22:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't mean to be witty here, but what about on the Moon or in a spaceship? Obviously, there are many instances where normal times as they were known to man when bibles were written will not fit into what we know now. I'm answering from an Orthodox Jewish perspective, in which timing similarly plays a very important part of ritual observance, such as keeping the Sabbath and Jewish holidays, during which certain restrictions apply from sundown to sundown or from sunup to sundown. In Iceland, there are times when sunup occurs very soon after sundown (I think in the ballpark of an hour or so), and when Ilan Ramon went on the spaceshuttle Columbia, he was faced with these issues (even though he was not concerned, as he was not quite fully observant). So your question is a good one, and at least in Judaism, has been dealt with by a number of prominent Jewish thinkers and commentators. As that relates to Islam, I would probably say that it would not, because you would certainly not accept a Jewish ruling. But that's all I have to say. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 02:33, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that, but for an even more extreme environment, how about Ramadan in space? Adam Bishop (talk) 02:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The articles on Ramadan and the Islamic calendar are kind of vague about the range of Gregorian dates in which Ramadan can occur - but it's the 9th month in the Islamic lunar calendar, and although one of the links says it can occur from summer months to winter months, I don't think it literally occurs in either the dead of winter or the peak of summer, either of which would be a significant crimp in trying observe that month. I think it's typically in what we would think of as the fall, i.e. September-October-November. Obviously, a Muslim needs to weigh in here and educate all of us on this matter. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

It is for questions like this that I think the "Religion reference desk" was proposed. Bus stop (talk) 02:47, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

To take a line straight from Groucho, "Oh, no, we're not going to go through all that again!" What's kind of distressing is that the articles on the lunar calendar are of no help - although it may be that the, shall we say "flexible" way the months are determined each year makes it perhaps a bit difficult. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

From Historical Atlas of Islam by Malise Ruthven and Azim Nanji (2004) (page 15) I summarize as follows: There is more than one solution. Some Muslim clerics insist that as long as there is any time between sunrise and sunset, no matter how little, the fast must be observed according to the strict rules. If there is no such break, then the fast should follow the time of the closest city that does have such a break. Another view involves distinguishing between direct and indirect sunlight, though nothing is said on the page about what happens under heavy cloud cover. Yet another view says: “A Muslim living in the far north should follow the pattern of observance prevailing in the nearest Muslim majority country.” The short answer appears to be that the degree of strict observance of the rules of this fast by any individual is likely to be equivalent to the degree of that individual's strict observance of the rules in general.

The same text states that the lunar month of Ramadan may occur at any time during our solar year, moving through a 35-year cycle. // BL \\ (talk) 03:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The last part is indeed mostly (our article says it's ~33 years) correct as a lunar year of 12 months is 354.37 days any pure lunar calendar drifts, in the 12 months case by about 11 or 12 days. (Obviously you could have a lunar calender with fewer or more months which would drift more or in a different direction.) Lunisolar calendars are obviously different. To give an idea, this year, Ramadan will end on ~20th September next year 10th September. The precise date will vary from location to location including how the date is determined Nil Einne (talk) 20:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Your link doesn't work but I presume refers to Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor#Spaceflight and religion for which the issue came up. [13] [14]. The guidelines published for him (I don't know if he did actually fast in the end) were to follow the schedule from his liftoff point if he choose to fast, which was not necessary since people traveling are not required to fast. You're also exempt if it's necessary for work etc. (If you can't fast you're supposed to make up for it when you can.) This is obviously an issue for people traveling on aeroplanes particularly westward. (For the crew they obviously have to ensure they are fit for duty and don't get too dehydated etc.) I believe it's common airlines from predominantly Muslim countries at least will aide those who wish to observe the fast by serving food again after the it comes time to break the fast if the passenger has missed an earlier meal and waking the passenger and serving food before it's time to start observing the fast. They may also provide dates or some other sort of wrapped snack to break the fast and announce when it's time since serving food is takes a while. (Obviously to avoid alienating their non Muslim passengers and Muslim passengers who choose not fast while traveling they will otherwise mostly observe the normal schedule.) I'm pretty sure I've experienced this myself before although it's been a while so can't remember it that well. [15] [16] [17] [18] Royal Brunei Airlines is an interesting experience, they have prayers for a safe journey broadcast on the inflight entertainment system before takeoff and landing. Oh and for Malaysia Airlines and Brunei both IIRC, probably other airlines they show the direction of Mecca on the flight information display thing that you sometimes have on the in flight entertainment, showing the speed, direction, current location, altitude etc, estimate arrival time etc Nil Einne (talk) 20:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

This is an issue for Jews as well, for the onset of shabbat, and the like. I've also read discussions of the onset of Ramadan in Australia, because it is determined by the onset of the full moon, but the full moon where is not noted. In Australia that can be a couple of days different than in Mecca. Some Muslims observe it from the time it hits Mecca, others from the time it hits at the place of residence. The general notion is that as long as it is observed, few people are concerned by it. IIRC there was an article about shabbat in polar regions, but I can't remember what it was called. Steewi (talk) 03:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you mean Australia and Mecca are a couple of days different. At most 24 hours. Bus stop (talk) 13:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's an article about shabbat in the midnight sun in Barrow, AK. It's not the Muslim approach, but it discusses similar issues. Steewi (talk) 03:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers so far, everyone. I think I'm getting the picture. 79.194.62.210 (talk) 12:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you intend to link to Jewish law in the polar regions? Nil Einne (talk) 20:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

It's well to keep in mind that in Muhammad's time and following, all the Muslims were in the middle east, and no one knew anything about the polar regions, let alone space travel. At some point, presumably, adjustments will have to be made to how the month's activities are honored. One hypothetical way would be to go by a Mecca-based sunrise-sunsit rather than local sunrise-sunset (adjusted for time zone, of course). I don't know that that has ever been proposed, though, that's just my idea. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:28, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

To extend Nil Einne's comment above on the change in the end of Ramadan in 2009 and 2010, this site sets out its various aspects from 2009 to 2015, by which time the fasting occurs in June by the Julian calendar. // BL \\ (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

What are the names of Charities owned by African Americans?

i have a list of non profit orgs, but i need a list of ones owned and started by african americans. i have one: Keep a Child Alive owned by alicia keys ?198.86.238.116 (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC

This site might be useful. // BL \\ (talk) 00:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Remember that no one, by definition, owns a non-profit charity.--Wetman (talk) 06:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

One of the most well-known that's strictly a charity (with no associated lobbying arm, as far as I'm aware) is the United Negro College Fund, famously promoted by Dan Quayle... AnonMoos (talk) 09:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

September 16

lens-less glasses worn for fashion

Here in China young ladies (& very occasionally young men) are now wearing "frames" as a fashion accessory. Is this currently happening in any other countries? Can anyone help establish the origin of this fad? 218.25.32.210 (talk) 02:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
EDIT TO ADD - in case it wasn't clear in my initial post, we're talking about glasses that lack any lens at all. Neither real nor fake - they are literally empty frames! Is this being seen anywhere else in the world? Or can I deem it a uniquely Chinese "achievement"? 218.25.32.210 (talk) 08:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

In the mid-1980s there was a brief and equally clueless California fad of "attitude glasses" with non-prescription plastic lenses in them. Stictly suburban. The empty format, freed of any intellectual or cultural residue, is a familiar characteristic of post-modern Eastern wannabe gimmicks: glassless frames capture the essence of this reverse-Chinoiserie.--Wetman (talk) 06:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Senator Barry Goldwater wore enormous thick-framed glasses for most of his career. Then his vision got worse to the point where he had to switch to contact lenses, which he did. But he kept wearing empty frames with plain glass in them over the contacts, since people were used to seeing him with those frames. 67.122.211.205 (talk) 07:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

As the previous replies have suggested, it's glasses with plain lenses which have previously been a minor fashion trend in the U.S. Empty frames without any lenses were pretty much novelty-store gag gifts and comedian's accessories, as far as I'm aware (Jerry Lewis sometimes wore them, and some comedians slipped them on as part of their act, and then said "Would you hit a man wearing glasses?" etc.). Groucho glasses have no lenses... AnonMoos (talk) 09:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

While I haven't noticed any trend towards this in the UK, the comic actor Eric Sykes used to wears thick black glasses which acted as hearing aids and had no lenses. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I actually saw this for the very first time just the other day! On my way home from work on a tram in Melbourne, Australia. It was a young asian guy, apart from the glasses he was dressed quite hip. There's lot's of Asian students in Melbourne, so I suppose there's half a chance it will take off here. Vespine (talk) 04:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

There was a cat eye glasses fad in the late 50's in the United States. It was not very wide spread and didn't last long - transitioning into similarly shaped sunglasses, which then transitioned to the grossly oversized sunglasses of the 60's. However, when modern people dress in what they believe to be 50's style, it is very common for the women to wear cat eye glasses.

Finance

Hello, I have some questions regarding Template:Infobox company.

1. What is Production output and how it is measured?
2. Revenue means the total amount of money a company earned through selling its products. Fine. Operating income means earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT), fine. As per the article Earnings before interest and taxes, Operating Income = Operating Revenue – Operating Expenses. Is operating revenue and revenue same?
3. If EBIT = Operating revenue – Operating expenses, then I have to assume operating expense excludes taxes. But according to the article Operating expense, Operating expenses include license fees, property taxes etc. Then how operating expense excludes tax?
4. Does Net income = Revenue - (EBIT + Tax)? Is this formula right?
5. Some countries have high corporation tax rates, while some countries have very low corporation tax rate. For example in Republic of Macedonia, corporation tax and income tax is very low, 10%. If so, then why large multinational companies do not move their global headquarters to such tax heavens?
6. I have a bit confusion over corporate tax and income tax. Bill Gates is the owner of Microsoft. Thus the total income of Microsoft before paying taxes is the total income of Bill Gates, since he himself is the owner of the business. Now if corporation tax is taken from Microsoft, this means tax on the income of Gates, am I right? Ok, if Microsoft is a publicly traded company, then corporation tax means tax on the income of its shareholders, right? And if so, then what is the difference between corporation tax and income tax here? AquaticMonkey (talk) 03:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

On the last point - according to our article, Bill Gates only owns 8% of Microsoft. In any case a company is generally considered as a separate legal entity, so its income is not considered part of its owners' income, even if it's owned by a single person. The owner would receive income from the company as some combination of salary and dividends. AndrewWTaylor (talk)

1. Not sure - probably refers to amount of goods sold during the period. Have you tried google? Revenue would be a much better measure of output anyway.

2. Operating revenue would be revenue from operations. This would be less than Revenue if the company classifies income from peripheral activities as "Revenue" and it would depend on reporting standards.

3. Property tax is is not the same as a company tax, which a company pays based on its profits for the period. See property tax for details.

4. No. Net Income = EBIT - Interest - Taxes

5. Have a look at Tax haven#Anti-avoidance. See this for another take on the matter. Moving a part of a company to another country results in various administrative inefficiencies due to, for example, a lack of skills and other resources in that country. Basically, if an entity wants to sell its goods in the US and earn its profits in the US, it would have to pay US tax rates.

6. Even if Bill Gates was the only owner of Microsoft (he isn't), the company and the man are separate taxable entities. The company declares an income and is subject to pay taxes on that income at the corporate tax rate. Being a shareholder, Gates would receive income in the form of dividends and he would have to pay taxes on that income at his income tax rate. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 09:35, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

A question on postmodern depiction in literature....

Can salman rushdie's short story, At the auction of the ruby slippers, be considered a post modern depiction of western culture? why?

And if u are unable to answer that question because you haven't read At the auction of the ruby slippers, could u please explain what would be/consist a postmodern depiction in literature?

thank you. kindly help me ans this qn asap as it is urgent. Paul 220.255.220.197 (talk) 04:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess you had better drop that class. Шизомби (talk) 05:02, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried reading our articles on postmodernism and postmodern literature? While postmodernism is hard to define, the thread running through it is the sort of "self-awareness" or metanarrative the story seems to display. Consider something like the film Scream. It is clearly postmodern because, besides being a horror film, it is itself a self-referential critique of the horror genre. Very postmodern sort of thing. Also see the film Unforgiven, same deal but with westerns. It is at once a western, but also obviously it plays around with the conventions of Westerns in such a way that you know that the filmmakers are saying "We know this is how a Western formula should work, but we are intentionally screwing with the formula in a way that makes it obvious we are doing so". All postmodernist works contain a similar sort of internal irony in that way. Robot Chicken is MEGA postmodern, like postmodern-with-a-sledgehammer sort of postmodern. Much of postmodernism is a big "in-joke" and you need to know the background to get the joke. If the first western you ever saw was Unforgiven, you would completely miss the postmodern aspects of it. If you want to "get" postmodernism, you need to be familiar enough with the material the story is commenting on. So, if Rushdie's story is a post-modern depiction on western culture, you need to ask, what is Rushdie saying about western culture in his story. Not overtly in the text, but in the sorts of ways that it exagerates or uses aspects of western culture in ironic ways. Exageration and irony are very postmodern tools... --Jayron32 05:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Its a language arts class which is a compulsory subject in my school lol... yeah, at the auction of the ruby slippers satirizes capitalism extensively such as where even like the taj mahal, the sphinx and so on are sold at the grand auction. Through doing so it depicts western culture of being overtly capitalistic and shows rushdies negative attitude towards it. He depicts the setting of the story to be a choatic anarchy-filled world were people live in fear in "bunkers". The society depicted to be highly relativistic and emotionless in some parts. But at the same time it also shows a lack of identity and a search for identity in the text as everyone is there to try and get the ruby slippers of Dorothy from the wizard of oz for themselves to return to a "state of normalcy" or home, which i believe is postmodern idea as well as a postcolonial mentality right? So should we say that it is a postmodern depiction of western culture to show salman rushdie's attitude towards western culture? or should we present the idea in another way like saying that it shows the writer's postcolonial sentiments towards the western culture by his critical depiction of it in the text? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.255.220.197 (talk) 08:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC) Paul 220.255.220.197 (talk) 10:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, in that specific case, the postmodernism aspect is the use of the Wizard of Oz as a means of providing the criticism. Remember the importance of the "in-joke" to postmodernism... If one had never seen the Wizard of Oz, then the ruby slippers reference would mean nothing. It is specifically the use of the commonly recognized motif in such a way that it assumes the audience automatically understands it that is the postmodern angle here, not JUST the use of satire... --Jayron32 12:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

leftovers worth today

When Barbara Hutton died in 1979, she had about $3,500 on deposit in her bank accounts. Who inherited the money since she had no other living heirs after her son, Lance Reventlow, was killed in a private airplane crash in 1972? What would $3,500 in 1979 be in today's money?69.203.157.50 (talk) 05:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

If you follow the first link in the Barbara Hutton#External links, it says her last will made bequests to friends (so those friends were her heirs). But it doesn't say who they were or what specifically happened to the money. According to the "inflation calculator" page on the US Bureau of Labor Statistics web site, $3,500 US in 1979 equals about $10,380 today. --Anonymous, 08:24 UTC, which equals about 08:24 UTC today, September 16, 2009.

Of course, if left in a simple savings account, you would also have to factor in, on top of inflation, compound interest, which could make $3500 worth considerably more than even THAT. --Jayron32 12:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, not really. $10,380 today has the buying power of $3,500 then, but in lieu of Jayron's comment about interest, $3,500 (in actual money) then is still just $3,500 today. The money itself does not magically multiply along with inflation. Even with compounding interest, the buying power has likely decreased -- banks are not in the habit of risklessly outpacing inflation in their savings accounts. — Lomn 14:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

He's right. In a savings account, paying 2% interest (a generous amount, based on my very unscientific random poll of published rates), and compounded monthly $3,500 would grow to $6,374.23 in 30 years. Since you would need $10,380 in current cash to equal the purchasing power of $3,500 in 1979 cash, that would mean that you actually lost roughly $4,000/10,380 or 39% of its value. To break even with the 30 year inflation rate, you would need a savings account that paid roughly 3.63% interest. These calculations can be checked using this compound interest calculator. The highest published rate I can find for a "normal" savings account is 2.27%; however that rate requires a minimum balance of $100,000. Most savings accounts with a minimum balance requirement below $3,500 seem to be paying out in the 2% range. So there ya go. If you leave your money in a straight savings account, long term, you are losing purchasing power. --Jayron32 03:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

But what if $3,500 were in checking accounts in 1979? What would that be worth today?69.203.157.50 (talk) 04:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

You mean, like a standard no-interest-at-all checking account? It would be worth $3,500 exactly. In that case, its worth exactly what it would be worth in bills. If you took $3,500 in hundred dollar bills and stuffed it into coffee cans, in 30 years it is worth the same amount. The numbers on the front of the bills don't change. What changes is the amount of stuff you can buy with those bills which is what inflation means. The value of cash goes down over time; so that $3,500 isn't WORTH $10,380, but that it TAKES $10,380 to buy the same amount of stuff that $3,500 bought 30 years ago. If you want to look at how much $3,500 in TODAYS money would have been worth in 1979, you would need to take the inverse of the relationship. Since inflation is roughly 10,380/3500 = 296%, then today $3500 buys only about 1/3rd as much stuff today as it did in 1979. So, in a real sense, $3500 left in a no-interest checking account for 30 years would be worth only about 33% of its original value. --Jayron32 12:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I seem to recall that interest rates today are much lower then they would have been in the 1970s and 1980s, back when a mortgage of 15% was the norm as opposed to 5-6%. I would presume that savings account interest would also be higher, though I do not know how much higher. Googlemeister (talk) 14:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Christopher H. Clark

Dear Sirs:

I am a descendant of Christopher H. Clark.

He was a Congressman from Virginia from 1804 to 1806 and died November 21, 1828.

The Wikipedia article states he was "interred in a private cemetery at Old Lawyers Station near Lynchburg, Virginia".

The family believes this referrence to be the Clark family cemetery.

Can you supply the supporting citation for the referrence in the Wikipedia article for the burial location ?

Thank you for any assistance.

Robert C. Light,Jr. [email deleted to deter spambots] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.188.183.5 (talk) 14:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The source, according to the article Christopher H. Clark, is the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress. The specific entry is found here. // BL \\ (talk) 15:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Star ratings for novels, like those for movies

Is there any website that gives star ratings for novels and other narratives, in the same way that movies are rated? Whoa! - I do already know that Amazon does them, but that website(s) is not really suited to browsing by genre etc. Thanks. 89.243.195.226 (talk) 18:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

There's Goodreads.com (example ratings) which is browsable by genre. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 20:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Note that Goodreads, like Wikipedia, relies on its content from the readers of the site. The ratings don't come from critics, but from the general site user. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

There are other user-rated websites that have star-ratings. LibraryThing [[19]] is my favourite, but there's also Shelfari, which is equally popular. Both have tags (e.g. sci-fi, romance, American, cooking, steampunk, etc.) on individual books that can help you find other books with similar themes. Steewi (talk) 02:11, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

3 worst dictators in Africa

Is Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo a dictator and 3 worstin Africa. Somebody worte Paul Biya is example of worst dictator in Africa. how is Paul Biya a dictator? He is not bad at all? Who came up with the slogan 3 worst dictators in Africa?--209.129.85.4 (talk) 19:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

From the linked article Paul Biya:

The historian David Wallechinsky, in his book Tyrants, the World's 20 Worst Living Dictators, ranked Biya with three others in sub-Saharan Africa: Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe, Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo of Equatorial Guinea and King Mswati of Swaziland.

Check the last paragraph of the article for more information. // BL \\ (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Where does "Idi 'V.D.' Amin" rank on that list? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Since he doesn't qualify for the "living" part, I'll take a wild guess and say he didn't make the list. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Too bad the section heading didn't specify that. Regardless, becoming dead was probably Amin's most statesmanlike act. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

If we're talking the worst dictators in Africa in history, I would have thought King Leopold of the Belgians would come pretty close to the top. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there is steep competition to be on that list if you include the non-living. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 01:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

As with dictators around the world, the more of them on the non-living list, the better. Unfortunately, history shows that when a dictator dies, there's at least one evil child born in this world to carry on, to carry on. In short, such a list changes constantly and it never gets any better. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I've mentioned this before, but David Wallechinsky is not an historian, he's just a guy who makes lists. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I have amended the article accordingly, Adam, as there was nothing in Wallechinsky's article to support the "historian" description. I wonder, as I re-read the final paragraph of Paul Biya, if the great weight given to Wallechinsky's opinion is appropriate. I don't know enough about the local history and/or politics to take the matter further. // BL \\ (talk) 02:51, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I hereby pretend to be grossly offended by the word "just", Adam. Not really; but maybe, given that WP is full of lists, we can accord list makers a degree of respect that "just a listmaker" seems to deny them. Historians would be lost without lists; and listmakers would be lost without the work that historians do, so each serves a good purpose. Live and let live, I say. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 13:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Shape of writing tablets

Hello,

Could you help me find out what the notches on the top corners of the tablet on Image:Statue liberty22.jpg are for ? What sort of tablet is the sculptor trying to depict ? Is it a wax tablet ? A stone tablet ? Do you know where I could find information on tablet shapes ? (see also File:EIS_PHAOS.JPG with a somewhat similar shape) Teofilo talk 20:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

From Statue of Liberty: "The Keystone in her hand represents knowledge and shows the date of the United States Declaration of Independence, in roman numerals, July IV, MDCCLXXVI." ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 21:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

In other words, the shape represents a keystone. --Anonymous, 02:57 UTC, September 17, 2009.

The inscription JULY IV is kind of a mixed metaphor. To go fully Latin, presumably they should have said JULIUS instead of JULY. But then someone might think Lady Liberty's name was Julius. The analogy to EIS PHAOS is an interesting coincidence, as it's Greek for "toward light", and the poem connected with Lady Liberty says, "I lift my lamp beside the golden door." She welcomes new arrivals to New York City, and turns her back on the neighboring state. No respect for Joizy. :( Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Did the Romans use V for the letter U? In that case it would be JVLIVS. Googlemeister (talk) 13:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Is the shape for File:EIS PHAOS.JPG a keystone too ? I would have thought this would be the standard shape for some kind of tablets (wax or stone)... Teofilo talk 08:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

At long last, I have found the answer : see the German language Wikipedia : de:Tabula ansata. Thanks everybody for your help. Teofilo talk 09:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

match.com

why are their servers always down? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.18.82 (talk) 20:32, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Because they aren't working right. --Jayron32 21:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

DownForEveryoneorJustMe.com/match.com--droptone (talk) 21:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The physics of money

By analogy with energy, is it truely possible to waste (ie destroy) money? Energy cannot be destroyed, but only converted into different forms (including matter). For example you could try wasting/destroying money by using it to gamble at a casino, but in actuality it would simply flow to the shareholders, employees, suppliers etc. and their employees, suppliers, families etc. Burning paper notes would eventually result in more money being printed than otherwise.

While it is easy to get money flowing out in a top-down direction - consider the casino example - is it very difficult to reverse the direction of flow and get money flowing in in a bottom-up manner. Is this because of similar reasons that it is difficult to reverse physical processors due to entropy? And are there things equivalent to Stirling engines in the money world? 89.241.44.74 (talk) 21:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, Friedrich Hayek said that money is a mechanism for the flow of information about the efficient use of resources (or who deserves what); and if the money is, say, stolen, this information will be destroyed, and with it some wealth. (Money of course is not the same thing as wealth.) Yes, this does resemble entropy, which is also the destruction of information.

Not sure where you're going with the Stirling engine thing. A Stirling engine works on an unusually small amount of heat compared to other engines, and therefore ... er? 213.122.44.196 (talk) 22:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

What about something like a refridgerator mechanism - which concentrates heat/money? 78.149.136.139 (talk) 23:57, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Adam Smith showed, more than 200 year ago, that wealth could be created (by labour) and destroyed (by, um, destruction); wealth isn't conserved. Now you're talking about money (or are you talking about wealth and calling it money?). Money isn't wealth; it generally (but sometimes only vaguely) represents wealth, and it's even less prone to conservation than wealth. Money can be made and destroyed, even if the amount of wealth stays the same. It's really difficult to imagine a worthwhile physical analog (be it electricity, heat, fluids, or whatever) that models either of these concepts (never mind their interaction). Still, MONIAC Computer is a fun read. If that makes sense to you, reward yourself some red-coloured fluid. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 22:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I've seen the money-as-entropy analogy before, and while it does lead to some nice aphorisms (there are a million ways to spend your money, but little you can do to earn it), it isn't physically rigorous. As for ways to concentrate money, that's what tax breaks for the super wealthy are about—Maxwell's daemon, embodied. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 01:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Spending money does not destroy it, but money can be destroyed in other ways. For example, suppose that a bank holds $100 million in customer deposits. The bank takes, say, $92 million of that and loans it out. Now, where there had been $100 million, there now exists $192 million, because the depositors still own the money they put on deposit, but the borrowers also have funds they can use and spend. Then a recession occurs and borrowers owing $5 million go broke. The bank gets nervous and recalls another $7 million in loans. So the bank now has only $80 million in loans outstanding, and the money supply has been reduced by $12 million. This is a simplified example, but it shows one way that money can be destroyed. John M Baker (talk) 03:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

No, that's not the case. If you did an audit on each person involved in those transactions, you would still find they added up to the same amount. The borrowers "have" $92m, but they also owe $92m; their total assets haven't changed. The same with the banks and the depositors. If you like you can say that the depositors "own but don't have" the money, and the borrowers "have but don't own" it. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This is the basic "shell game" that banks play, because it involves treating money like a number rather than a physical object. If everything were cash-based, this approach wouldn't work. Which is why everything isn't cash-based. The expansion and contraction of the money supply coincides with prosperity and recession. If everything were cash-based, basically there would be no expansion of the economy. Basic Econ 101. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Spending energy does not destroy it either; it gets converted into different, less-usable forms. That's what the analogy was supposed to say—it isn't supposed to say that money is different than heat, but that it was similar. You can convert wealth into lots of other things quite easily (like tasty food), things that cannot be converted back into usable wealth (the food gets eaten, or spoils). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

There is an obvious way in which money is not constant. Every year central banks destroy a certain amount of money (i.e. actual coins and notes) and print or mint more. If the amount printed exceeds the amount destroyed then there is more money. It may not be worth as much in the long run, but there is certainly more of it. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

But there's always far more "money" held in bank accounts etc than there are physical notes and coins to cover them. Far, far more. Every time I'm given some interest on my massive savings, they don't suddenly produce new coins to the value of $1.27 to cover it. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Debate on healthcare reform

Hi Guys,

As someone who comes from the UK, the land of the death panel, i'm really interested in the debate on US healthcare reform - I was watching some protest on the news and basically, a lot of the protesters seemed to be working class. I guess i'm asking what these people think they're going to lose if the healthcare system was reformed - i mean, surely in terms of coverage, the system couldn't actually be much worse? Obviously i'm just a pinko European liberal, so i'd be interested in hearing what actually the opposing arguments are, from their point of view. Surely they're less concerned about tax rates than say, the people on fox news... Cheers, 82.132.139.110 (talk) 22:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The US healthcare reform article, and its section US healthcare reform#Common arguments for and against nationalized health care, might begin to answer your question. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 22:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

What's a death panel? Vimescarrot (talk) 22:34, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

See Political positions of Sarah Palin#Health care -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 22:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I just like to point out to our American chums that the OP is being ironic concerning "death panels" - they do not exist in the UK, although the NHS is reluctant to pay for very expensive drugs which are believed to be ineffective. I've also never heard of anyone, as asserted below, having problems getting a doctor, or waiting in pain - this would be a national scandal if it ever happened. Re Sarah Palin's writings - care for people with disabilities such as Downs Syndrome is very good - we do take a pride in caring for the less fortunate. You get cradle to grave care in the UK - even if you became completely impoversihed, you'd still get free healthcare, which I think takes a lot of worry out of people's lives. May I point out that the life expectancy in the UK is greater than that in the US. People can have American-style private health insurance if they wish, but not many choose to have it. 78.149.116.143 (talk) 11:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

An episode of The West Wing (I forget which one; I think it's the one about the veil of ignorance) gave a plausible answer for what seems to be your underlying question : why do poor Americans vote for parties that seek to continue the economic system that's likely to keep those same poor Americans poor (isn't this turkeys voting for Christmas), rather than a genuinely socialist, redistributivist party? Their answer was that even the poorest, most disadvantaged Americans genuinely believed in the American Dream, that they personally (through dint of hard work and divine grace) could themselves make it big. And they wouldn't want that bugbear "big government" taking away all that newfound wealth.-- Finlay McWalter • Talk 22:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

And of course they might believe in the benefit of a thriving economy as a whole to even the poorest (more cheap products available); and they might even be selflessly principled, believing that lower tax and/or less governmental coercion is good for humanity; but I guess that's unlikely. 213.122.44.196 (talk) 22:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Remember -- 85% of Americans have health insurance. And those Americans who have good insurance get arguably better healthcare than people in the UK or Canada. They don't have to struggle to find a family doctor or wait years for surgery. Many Americans have heard horror stories of people in other countries suffering in pain while they wait for their turn to get taken care of. The trick for supporters of healthcare reform is how do you convince the vast majority of people who already have health insurance that they stand to benefit from changes to the status quo. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:42, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, MOST of those 85% have the potential for serious problems. Most Americans are on some form of HMO or Managed care which greatly restricts their access to health care, often with layers of bureaucracy that makes it almost impossible to get speedy care. These organizations are widely reported to cut off coverage arbitrarily, either by refusing to pay for necessary but expensive treatments, or by dropping coverage altogether once the patient receives some sort of arbitrary coverage limit. Most Americans are also saddled with high co-pays and high deductibles that still leaves the very sick with high out-of-pocket expenses. Healthy Americans, who never access their health plans, tend to be happy with them. The sick are somewhat more disappointed... --Jayron32 02:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The section title says it all: Debate on healthcare reform. Unless the OP has another specific question, I believe we are treading far from information and well into debate. // BL \\ (talk) 02:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Correct. Please do not debate the topic here. The only thing I can imagine that provides more of an answer to the OP is that just about any large group of Americans that you will see on television will be working class because most Americans are working class. Seeing a thousand working class Americans on TV in support or opposition of something does not in any way represent the working class as a whole. In my opinion, most Americans are too busy working to go out and march around in support or opposition of anything. I personally work two full time jobs while completing my PhD and raising two babies. No matter how much I support or oppose anything, I'm not wasting my time trying to get on TV with some dumb slogan on a cardboard sign. -- kainaw™ 03:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

You forgot your third job, that of Reference Desk question answerer. Tempshill (talk) 04:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It may look like debating, but it is at least informing the OP what some opponents of the reform think they're going to lose - access to healthcare without long waits, and access to treatments which would be judged cost-ineffective by an American NICE. The latter is closely related to the "death panel" fear. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 07:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The phrase "working class" doesn't mean "all people who work" (which would include Steve Jobs, say), but "poor people who work" or something like "blue collar". It's poorly named, offensive to non-poor workers, and an obvious grab at defining language, but there you have it. --Sean 17:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The phrase is just out of date. Before the rise of the middle class, there were people who worked for their money and people who inherited their money (or inherited assets which earn money). Then "working class" made perfect sense. --Tango (talk) 21:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

A major reason is that in the last couple of decades, most of the working class and most of the rural population has been drawn to the social values (not economic values) claimed by the Republican Party: Homosexuality is bad and should be discouraged where possible; abortion should be illegal; there should be more religion in public places and public life; and the US enjoys American exceptionalism and does no wrong internationally; criticizing the country's actions is unpatriotic. This identification with these social values trumps the fact that the Republican Party stabs the working class in the back whenever possible, so since the Republican party condemns nationalized health care, and even the timid step of a "public option", which means "the government will start an insurance company", these social conservatives rally to the Republican point of view, despite the benefit they would end up with. Tempshill (talk) 04:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Ironic, ain't it? That last point, I mean. To me, "conservative" means cautious and thrifty. The neo-cons are neither. They love government spending as much as liberals do. The only point of disagreement is what to spend it on: guns or butter, as the saying goes. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys -so just to clear a few things up if you don't mind. Firstly, i'm not sure the phrase 'working class' is particularly out-of-date or offensive, but yes, in British English, its generally means those (who were raised) on a low income. i'll now go and read the wikipedia article like a good boy (but not before i answer almostreadytofly's point: if british people are unhappy with the NHS (and the policies of NICE) they can just choose private health insurance, and get american-style cover. it seems to me that americans just don't have that choice)) 82.132.139.178 (talk) 21:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

September 17

Converts to Judaism in Nazi era

Were people who converted to the Jewish faith during the Nazi era in Europe treated the same as racial Jews. I.e. would a non racial Jewish convert be sent to an extermination facility, or just a concentration camp as a jewish sympathiser. Thanks very much

The article on Racial_policy_of_Nazi_Germany implies that Germans who converted were counted amongst the Jewish (which makes sense, given how much the Nazis would have considered that sort of thing to be "race treachery"), though I haven't seen anything about this particular question myself. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 01:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Isabelle Urquhart bio?

At this time I am to new to site and code writing so I am find it very hard create a new page however is enough info on public domain site for her bio page to be completed for example. http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?parent_id=560813&word= http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A01E4D6153EE033A2575BC0A9649C946697D6CF http://www.ibdb.com/person.php?id=62940

So,who are the experts at wikipedia who can help me? -- 01:22, 17 September 2009 User:Jhasara

There is a place you can ask other editors to start an article for you; begin at Wikipedia:Requested articles. Not knowing anything about the time, though, you will have to state why she meets Wikipedia's notability criteria for people. Tempshill (talk) 04:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Seems notable enough. Have a look at what I hath wrought and tell me what you think. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Incorruptible FBI

I have reard that the FBI had a reputation for being incorruptible for, I believe, decades. If I recall correctly, this was taken for granted in The Godfather (the novel), for example. Am I correct about this reputation? (Obviously corner cases must have existed, but I'm asking about the general reputation of the organization.) If so, why the incorruptibility? It wasn't religious fanaticism or incredibly high pay. Tempshill (talk) 06:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody’s perfect. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

And I'm sure this chap just found it difficult to find evidence on the mafia as opposed to civil righters. Dmcq (talk) 11:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

A basic truth about federal law is that it at least tries to appear to be moral and fair, which makes people who uphold and enforce it appear to be moral and fair and its violators immoral and unfair. -- Taxa (talk) 11:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." - John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton Everyone is corruptible. ~ Amory (user • talk • contribs) 12:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

J. Edgar Hoover's carefully groomed self-presentation was taken at face value until after the threat that he represented was removed by his death. Compare the public reputation of that other head of a secret police, Lavrentiy Beria.--Wetman (talk) 13:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It's usually a contrast between local and federal enforcement. Local enforcement can be bribed—there are a limited number of people and they have strong local political interests (the sheriff needs to be reelected, as does the judge, etc.). Federal enforcement is more tricky—there are more people, and their political interests are in "big" politics, not "small" politics. So J. Edgar Hoover doesn't need somebody in Chicago to keep his job—he needs to please Congress, and the President, to do so. There's not necessarily a whole lot that someone in Chicago can do to make Hoover happy. You can bribe one Congressman—can you bribe 50 of them? Additionally, by being "outsiders", the FBI generally don't have stakes in local disputes. Local cops are going to be there every day for years—they can build up debts, illicit arrangements, etc. G-men come in only when there is a problem—they don't know you, they don't want to know you, they don't owe you anything.

This is, of course, quite different than saying someone is honest and truly incorruptible. It just means that local hoods can't bribe federal enforcement, usually, because there is a little more oversight and they don't have local investments. Hoover and the FBI were certainly anything but pure in intent and spirit. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 13:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

HEALTH CARE REFORM

In 2008 Frontline surveyed health care plans around the world and found the following reforms:

INSURANCE:

1. funding
   1. all must buy
   2. poor subsidized
2. profit
   1. break even, not for profit

MEDICAL SERVICES

1. delivery
   1. everyone is covered
   2. basics services guaranteed
2. cost
   1. electives minimized
   2. administration computerized

It seems the real problem with passing health care reform is the number of people whose job will be lost. Reform requires insurance and health provider administration cost reduction from the current 23% or more to 2% or less. The cost of health services needs to be reduced as well similar to MRI scan cost reduction in Japan's reformed system. Can this be done by replacing insurance and health care personnel (including diagnosticians) with computers and by installing other operational and delivery efficiencies? -- Taxa (talk) 11:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Plenty of people are trying to reduce healthcare costs in both public and private sectors in many parts of the world. Computers often form an important part of this. However it's not always easy, and you have to be cautions since the side-effects of getting it wrong (such as losing medical records at a critical time) are very serious. However even with both trying to cut costs like this, US healthcare remains much more expensive than healthcare in other countries. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course it's expensive. It's privatized, for-profit. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:59, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

"The real problem with passing health care reform" in the US isn't the (unknown) number of middle-class bureaucrat jobs that will be lost, but the number of rich incomes that will be lost because for-profit insurance companies will end up left out in the cold. The people with those incomes are funding all of the opposition (by contributing to politicians, mostly). Tempshill (talk) 14:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

And convincing a lot of suckers to do their marching for them. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

While jobs are a defendable issue I don't think corporate or individual profit has anywhere near the same defendable status as jobs. Risk in business is a given. -- Taxa (talk) 20:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

This is the second time that a healthcare-reform question has turned into a debate. Could we please restrict our answers to the facts of the question, and not to opinions? // BL \\ (talk) 14:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

If the answers were clear, there would be no debate, now would there? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 14:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Research has been conducted into "Computer-assisted medical diagnosis", but this is to aid doctors; I'm not aware that it can be used to replace doctors. The NHS runs "Drop-in centres" where initial consultation is with a nurse, who may refer the case to a doctor if necessary. Thus nurses are used to reduce the number of doctors needed. In addition, there was some talk of outsourcing the examination of some x-ray scans to Spain [20]. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

US Congress eligibility

Hello,

I have a question about Mark Kirk's future status in the House of Representatives now that he has declared a run for the Senate. The Senate primary is set for February 2nd. Let's say he runs and loses. Could he then go up for re-election to the House in 2010? Is that legal? And is it possible, given the various deadlines?

I hit up some layman congressional law books at my library and also tried flipping through here: http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/senateelectionlawguidebook.pdf But no dice. Maybe it's something so obvious that it's not mentioned anywhere.

And thus I come to Wikipedia. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks!

You can run for one office while you're sitting in another, it happens all the time. For example, the 4 Pres/VP candidates, 3 of whom were sitting Senators and 1 was a sitting Governor. You just can't hold more than one office. So if he loses the Senate primary, he can stay in the House, and can win the House election again, assuming he chooses to run. If he wins the Senate primary, then he finds himself in a P.R. bind if he were to simultaneously run for the House and Senate. I think his party would step in and make him choose, if he didn't choose voluntarily. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

You can sometimes run for two offices at once. Lloyd Bentsen famously kept himself as the Democratic Party candidate for the Senate seat from Texas, while being Michael Dukakis' running-mate in the 1988 Presidential Election. Had he won both jobs, he would simply have resigned his senate seat in favor of the higher office. In the case of Kirk, the only issue is whether he still has time to enter the race for a seat as a representative if he fails in the Senate primary; often, the primaries for both houses of Congress are run simultaneously, so you have to pick one race only. --Xuxl (talk) 18:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to the both of you for responding. I ended up just calling Kirk's office and they very quickly and definitively stated that his running for Senate precluded the possibility of holding the House seat next term.

I looked it up and the filing deadline for IL-10 is Nov. 1, three months before the Senate primary, so that must be part of it.

That's enough info for my purposes, and I consider the question resolved, but as a matter of curiosity I wonder whether there's a legal restriction on running for two positions, or if it's a matter of PR and party politics.

Thanks again.

Are NJ municipalities statutorily required to provide fire protection

Hello. Are NJ municipalities statutorily required to provide fire protection for their jurisdiction? I have searched the NJ code and NJ cases, but have been unable to find any such discussion. Thanks in advance. Brianga (talk) 18:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Eliminations of two term limits

Since country like Cameroon and Uganda eliminate two term limits so Paul Biya and yoweri Museveni can run again. Can all country do that. If I was in Ghana could I just sign a petition to eliminate the two term limit to allow John Kufuor to run again. Is that legal? If two term limit is gone, does this mean Paul Biya can stay in until he dies or he can only run one mor term? Is this possilbe to some country protest to kick out the two term limits is illegal. i wish I've sign a petition to Ghana to kick off the two term limit to let John Kufuor stay!--209.129.85.4 (talk) 21:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know any country where a petition can directly cause a change in law. A petition might be able to force a referendum, though. Laws can always be changed. The law could be changed to extend the term limit or to eliminate it entirely. Term limits are often parts of constitutions, which are usually more difficult to change that regular laws, but they can be changed. --Tango (talk) 21:23, 17 September 2009 (UTC)