Talk:Falun Gong

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In relation to qigong and its roots in Chinese culture

In 1992, Li Hongzhi introduced Falun Gong and along with teachings that touched upon a wide range of topics, from detailed exposition on qigong related phenomenon and cultivation practice to science and morality. In the next few years, Falun Gong quickly grew in popularity across China to become the most popular qigong practice in Chinese History. Falun Gong was welcomed into the state-controlled Scientific Qigong Research Association, which sponsored and helped to organize many of his activities between 1992 and 1994, including 54 large-scale lectures. In 1992 and 1993 he won government awards at the Beijing Oriental Health Expos, including the "Qigong Master most acclaimed by the Masses" and "The Award for Advancing Boundary Science."

According to academics, Falun Gong originally surfaced in the institutional field of alternative Chinese science, not religion. The debate between what can be called "naturalist" and "supernaturalist" schools of qigong theory has produced a considerable amount of literature. Xu Jian stated in The Journal of Asian Studies 58 (4 November 1999): "Situated both in scientific researches on qigong and in the prevailing nationalistic revival of traditional beliefs and values, this discursive struggle has articulated itself as an intellectual debate and enlisted on both sides a host of well-known writers and scientists — so much so that a veritable corpus of literature on qigong resulted. In it, two conflicting discourses became identifiable. Taking “discourse” in its contemporary sense as referring to forms of representation that generate specific cultural and historical fields of meaning, we can describe one such discourse as rational and scientific and the other as psychosomatic and metaphysical. Each strives to establish its own order of power and knowledge, its own “truth” about the “reality” of qigong, although they differ drastically in their explanation of many of its phenomena. The controversy centers on the question of whether and how qigong can induce “supranormal abilities” (teyi gongneng). The psychosomatic discourse emphasizes the inexplicable power of qigong and relishes its super-normal mechanisms or which causative factors which go beyond wht canbe explained by presentday scietific models, whereas the rational discourse strives to demystify many of its phenomena and to situate it strictly in the knowledge present day modern science." The Chinese government has generally tried to encourage qigong as a science and discourage religious or supernatural elements. However, the category of science in China tends to include things that are generally not considered scientific in the West, including qigong and traditional Chinese medicine.

David Aikman has written in American Spectator (March 2000): "Americans may believe that qigong belongs in a general category of socially neutral, New Age-style concepts that are merely subjective, not necessarily harmful, and incapable of scientific proof. But China's scientific community doesn't share this view. Experiments under controlled conditions established by the Chinese Academy of Sciences in the late 1970s and early 1980s concluded that qi, when emitted by a qigong expert, actually constitutes measurable infrared electromagnetic waves and causes chemical changes in static water through mental concentration. Qi, according to much of China's scientific establishment, for all intents existed."

Li Hongzhi states in Falun Buddha Fa Lectures in Europe:

"Since the time Dafa was made public, I have unveiled some inexplicable phenomena in qigong as well as things that hadn’t been explained in the qigong community. But this isn’t the reason why so many people are studying Dafa. It’s because our Fa can truly enable people to Consummate, truly save people, and allow you to truly ascend to high levels in the process of cultivation. Whether it’s your realm of mind or the physical quality of your body, the Fa truly enables you to reach the standards of different levels. It absolutely can assume this role."

Andrew P. Kipnis is quoted as stating: "...to the Western layperson, qigong of all sorts may seem to be religious because it deals with spiritual matters. Because Li Hongzhi makes use of many concepts from Buddhism and Taoism in his writings, this may make Falun Gong seem even more like a religion to the outsider; bur Falun Gong grew initially into a space termed scientific [in China], but was mostly insulated from the spaces formally acknowledged as institutionalized science in Western countries"

The term 'qigong' was coined in the early 1950s as an alternative label to past spiritual disciplines rooted Buddhism or Taoism, that promoted the belief in the supernatural, immortality and pursuit of spiritual transcendence. The new term was constructed to avoid danger of association with ancient spiritual practices which were labeled "superstitious" and persecuted during the Maoist era. In Communist China, where spirituality and religion are looked-down upon, the concept was "tolerated" because it carried with it no overt religious or spiritual elements; and millions flocked to it during China's spiritual vacuum of the 1980s and 1990s. Scholars argue that the immense popularity of qigong in China could, in part, lie in the fact that the public saw in it a way to improve and maintain health. According to Ownby, this rapidly became a social phenomenon of considerable importance.

Membership and finances

Sociologist Susan Palmer writes that, "...Falun Gong does not behave like other new religions. For one thing, its organization - if one can even call it that - is quite nebulous. There are no church buildings, rented spaces, no priests or administrators. At first I assumed this was defensive [...] now, I'm beginning to think that what you see is exactly what you get - Master Li's teachings on the Net on the one hand and a global network of practitioners on the other. Traveling through North America, all I dug up was a handful of volunteer contact persons. The local membership (they vehemently reject that word) is whoever happens to show up at the park on a particular Saturday morning to do qigong."

Finances

In his thesis, Noah Porter takes up the issue of Falun Gong and finance in Mainland China. He quotes and responds to some of the allegations of the Chinese Communist Party that Li benefited financially from teaching the practice. Porter writes that when teaching seminars, there was an admission of 40 yuan per new practitioner and 20 yuan for repeat practitioners--with the repeat practitioners making up for 50-75% of the admissions. He goes on to say with respect to the CCP's claims: "...but the Chinese government figures for the profits of the seminars counted all attendees as paying the 40-yuan fee charged to newcomers. Also, the Chinese Qigong Research Society received 40% of admission receipts from July 1993 to September 1994. Falun Gong's first four training seminars took in a total of 20,000 yuan, which is only 10% of the 200,000 figure cited by the Chinese government. Finally, from that 20,000 yuan, they had several operating expenses..."

Ian Johnson points out that during the greatest period of Falun Gong book sales in China, Li Hongzhi never received any royalties because all publications were bootleg.

James Tong writes about the competing claims by Falun Gong and the Chinese government in 'The China Quarterly' journal, 2003. He writes that the government has attempted to portray Falun Gong as being financially savvy with a centralized administration system and a variety of mechanisms for deriving profit from the practice. He also looks over Falun Gong's claims of having no hierarchy, administration, membership or financial accounts, and that seminar admission was charged at a minimal rate. Tong writes that it was in the government's interest, in the post-crackdown context, to portray Falun Gong as being highly organised: "The more organized the Falun Gong could be shown to be, then the more justified the regime's repression in the name of social order was." He writes that the government's charges that Falun Gong made excessive profits, charged exorbitant fees, and that Li Hongzhi led a lavish lifestyle "...lack both internal and external substantiating evidence" and points out that that despite the arrests and scrutiny, the authorities "had disclosed no financial accounts that established the official charge and credibly countered Falun Gong rebuttals."

Li Hongzhi stipulates in his books Falun Gong and Zhuan Falun that practitioners should only voluntarily help others learn the exercises and that this could never be done for fame and money, and also stipulates that practitioners must not accept any fee, donation or gift in return for their voluntarily teaching the practice. According to Falun Gong, Li's insistence that the practice be offered free of charge caused a rift with the China Qigong Research Society, the state administrative body under which Falun Dafa was initially introduced. Li subsequently withdrew from the organization.

Falun Gong website often state on their pages that "All Falun Gong Activities Are Free of Charge and Run by Volunteers"

In an interview in Sydney on May 2, 1999, mentioning his financial status, Li said : "In mainland China I published so many books, but added together, they haven't exceeded twenty thousand Renminbi (equivalent to US $ 2,469). This is what the publishing company gave me. When publishing books in other countries of the world, you know there is a rule, which pays 5 or 6% royalties to the author, so each time I can only get a little bit, a few hundred, or a few thousand dollars."

Claims vs. Estimate

Another thing reverted here [5] is the estimate wording. Falun Gong has no membership, so nobody can claim any number of practitioners, the best that it can do is to estimate how many practitioners there are based statistics like this: [6]. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 10:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

So those people with yellow shirts who hang around on street corners AREN'T Falun Gong members... wow, could have fooled me. Ok, perhaps that was too sarcastic. But my point is that even if Falun Gong's membership is informal there are still clearly people who identify themselves as members of the Falun Gong. Nobody buys the falun gong as exercise set argument here. Simonm223 (talk) 11:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

• Estimations are based on some scientific evaluation of data (such as extrapolation or interpolation), and this has not been demonstrated in any way. When one party is trying to talk up the numbers while another is trying to talk them down, we have a 'claim'/'counterclaim' situation and no longer an estimation. Ohconfucius (talk) 13:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, as with everything I went and actually checked:

• http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/claim => the closest I found is: "A new statement of truth made about something."
• http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/estimate => the closest that I found is: "A rough calculation or guess."

the links are here, please go ahead and double check. Based on this I'm sure that nobody did a headcount, that is not possible, so it can not be "A new statement of truth made about something.", on the other hand based on the research they did, like here, it is possible to say that they made "A rough calculation or guess.".--HappyInGeneral (talk) 21:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

“ Falun Dafa guides people to cultivate their xinxing to be good people according to the characteristics of the universe, Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance, fundamentally eliminating illnesses, cleansing people's hearts, purifying their souls, and leading people on the path to returning to their original, true selves. Within seven years, Dafa had spread widely across China. More than one hundred million people practiced it. ”

Perhaps I am just being skeptical, but none of this chunk of text lends much credibility for an "estimate". It is a "claim" at best. One could even argue that within the context it is presented, it doesn't belong in the lede at all. Colipon+(Talk) 01:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry but nobody collects the name and address of people who download the book and start to cultivate. So the number is a rough estimation. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

• There is an obvious difference between even thee wiktionary definition of the words, but it seems like we are really talking semantics here. "statement of truth" can equate to "statement of belief" of "assertion". I would argue that estimate is not a 'guess' but more like a calculation. Why else would people bother to coin the word 'guesstimate'? Ohconfucius (talk) 04:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

On this I would go on the term in that dictionary. And that number can not be anything else then an educated guess/estimation, based on various factors like the number of practice sites, and maybe download statistics, people showing up at events, etc. etc. It definitely can not be a "statement of truth" because there are no procedure in Falun Dafa to get the exact figures. Plus if we say that Clearwisdom a site run by Falun Gong practitioners estimates the total number of practitioners to be more then 100 million, then that is a correctly sourced and attributed statement. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

• Merriam Webster dictionary defines 'claim' to be: "to assert in the face of possible contradiction : maintain <claimed that he'd been cheated> b : to claim to have <organization…which claims 11,000…members — Rolling Stone> "; 'estimate' is defined as "to judge tentatively or approximately the value, worth, or significance of b : to determine roughly the size, extent, or nature of c : to produce a statement of the approximate cost of".
• Thesaurus.com lists synonyms of 'claim' to be: "adduce, advance, allege, ask, assert, believe, call for, challenge, collect, declare, defend, exact, have dibs on something, hit, hit up, hold, hold out for, insist, justify, knock, lay claim to, need, pick up, pop the question, postulate, pretend, profess, pronounce, require, requisition, solicit, stake out, take, uphold, vindicate "; 'estimate' is defined as "approximate calculation; educated guess"; synonyms are listed as "appraisal, appraisement, assay, assessment, ballpark figure, belief, conclusion, conjecture, estimation, evaluation, gauging, guess, guesstimate, impression, judgment, measure, measurement, mensuration, opinion, point of view, projection, rating, reckoning, sizing up, stock, surmise, survey, thought, valuation". Ohconfucius (talk) 11:28, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

• OK, so can we agree that the words are similar? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

• They are as I defined earier above. Do you see 'estimate' being listed as a synonym of 'claim', and vice versa? I don't. Ohconfucius (talk) 11:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

• Fine, then do you agree that when Clearwisdom published this number it was done on "educated guess"? If not an educated guess then what is the base of their published number? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no basis really. NRMs are known to jack up the numbers of their followers to makes themselves look more credible. 100 million is just not believable. That's 1 in 12 Chinese. Having lived in China during this period I just cannot see how this is a logical conclusion. Colipon+(Talk) 11:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Its a total for 114 countries. And in China you will readily see self declared Falun Gong practitioners only in Labor Camps. Right? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

• We've come full circle here. FalunGongers have been happily using 'say' whenever it comes to FG or a pro-FG source, and then 'claim' when it comes to a pro-Chinese government/CCP source. We've just been through what looked very much like a charade, trying to justify the use of 'estimate' for their claim of "over 100 million practitioners". Now, we hear that it was perhaps an educated guess. I felt some wool over my eyes. ;-) Ohconfucius (talk) 13:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

• Fine, would it make you happy if I would drop the subject? Just because I updated the value based on source and now it says that they claim the number of practitioners to be over 100 million, which then is basically an estimate and not a statement of truth. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 20:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a very real question how reliable that source would be, unfortunately. It seems to be at least superficially almost self-published, in terms of the web page being one of FG practicioners/advocates/whatever. If it can be demonstrated that other more clearly independent sources have used the site as a source of information, then it might meet RS standards. As is, I think it can be used to indicate that FG advocates state that number, but, because it doesn't seem to indicate how the number was arrived at, particularly considering the source based on the information available is not necessarily the most reliable, I think personally that using "claims" would probably be better, because we are given no idea how the number was arrived at and there is at least potentially a very serious question regarding the reliability and independence of the source. John Carter (talk) 22:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

"Claim" is quite the right word here. We wouldn't even have this discussion if everybody here had a dispassionate attitude to the movement we're writing about. COI. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 14:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Right then the word estimate would be just as good. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 18:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

<blank stare> It would appear that nothing I said got through. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

My 2c worth... Could the right term be "asserts"? It seems that "one group (ccp) asserts x, FG asserts y" is the indivisible unit of knowledge here. 58.6.92.66 (talk) 11:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)BadBob

Some IPs need gold medals for thinking outside the prescribed box. Good suggestion... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 13:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

• Agreed, I would have no problems with that word, which I use interchangedly with 'claim', 'opine', etc. The word 'estimate' implies a greater accuracy than ought to actually be ascribed to how parties actually arrive at their numbers. Ohconfucius (talk) 13:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

• Altering the text to say that FG "asserts", "states", "says", etc., a given number of adherents works for me, although of the three I mention I would favor either "asserts" or "says". John Carter (talk) 16:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That's perfectly fine with me. Colipon+(Talk) 18:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Singer

A look into the background of professor Margaret Singer and it is clear that if she has an agenda, it is an anti-cult agenda, not a pro-Communist one. I removed the reference to Singer being "sympathetic to [the CCP's] goals". Even if there are some sources that paint Singer this way, inserting an awkward quote like this is highlights an undue connection between Singer and the Communists, which is not at all necessary given the context. If, perhaps, Singer was a Maoist herself or has notably supported CCP policies on other issues in the past, we can make this connection valid. But Singer has not demonstrated much of an explicit support for any anti-Falun Gong measures taken by the PRC government. She merely criticizes Falun Gong in its own right. Singer's Falun Gong writings have been noticeably less inflammatory than the CCP. This is the reason that even if this phrase or anything along the same vein is sourced, it is a poor representation of who Singer really is. Colipon+(Talk) 10:07, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

One can be "sympathetic to [the CCP's] goals" for many reasons, and usually the most telling if somebody is or is not is their words and actions, right? So if there is a source saying that she is "sympathetic to [the CCP's] goals" then this statement when it is correctly attributed and sourced can be inserted. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

But then you would be ignoring the well-known fact that FG pracititioners call all their critics "pro-CCP" as a rhetoric device. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 14:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Well aren't they usually "pro-CCP"? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 18:54, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Your leaps in logic reminds me of those highschool reasoning questions : Nazi's always hate Gays, therefore all Anti Gays are Nazi lovers. True or False? Bedbug1122 (talk) 00:25, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Bedbug you got it all wrong. What's more, that comment was a smear. Kindly strike it out. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:15, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Margaret's Singer's agenda had nothing to do with being "pro-CCP". The idea that anyone critical of FG is pro-CCP is alarmingly paranoid. In the American context critical perspectives, especially in relation to the "cult" label, have little to anything to do with CCP propaganda. I'm not sure how anyone can believe otherwise. Most Americans distrust the Chinese government. Singer's agenda was an anti-cult agenda which has nothing to do with Chinese politics.PelleSmith (talk) 02:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

You hit the nail on the head with "Well aren't they usually "pro-CCP"?" - by that I mean you hit the nail on the head as to why we have problems with the way you approach virtually all these articles. Anyone who doesn't share your views is automatically "pro-CCP" in your world.

Well, truth says "no, it ain't". Accept the notion that one can be critical of and even heavily criticize Falun Gong without being a spy for or sympathizer with the Chinese government. If you find yourself unable to accept that notion, you will simply have to get out and leave. Seriously. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

You did do a great job in launching a smear campaign against me, I see. Although I can see your logic above, you do forget to put this into context and acknowledge how massive the propaganda campaign against Falun Gong is, which naturally makes most of the critics "pro-CCP". Sure there are some people who don't like Falun Gong just because perhaps they are born that way. But if you ask me, those are very, very few, when compared with the 70 million party members, who need to criticize Falun Gong just to remain in the party. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 21:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

WTF???... What's up with the link to WP:NPA?... Alright, can we do a quick headcount as to who of the participants in these discussions is a member of the Chinese Communist Party?

Maybe no-one ever informed me of it, maybe my name is on some secret list somewhere, or maybe I must've stashed my membership-card into the back of my freezer and forgot about it... as far as I know, *I*, for one, have never been a member of any party. Or wait! Maybe, in fact, I *am* actually Chinese, was born in China, have been a member of the Communist Party since birth, but in order to hide that fact from everyone, including me, they surgically changed my face to Caucasian, implanted a new brain complete with new memories of my fake past, and now I am lying about it without even being aware of my lies, and... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 21:35, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree that context should always be taken into account. In this case, when a 'massive propaganda campaign' is taken in the context of the PRC it is not so notable, because history has shown us that massive propaganda campaigns are the standard form of communication of the CCP, whether its anti-piracy, anti-corruption, anti-vermin, or anti-dengxiaoping. Campaigns don't even always reflect a true believe in the message, and certainly it still fails logic to label supporters of such topics as pro-CCP. Also in terms of Context, that 70 million CCP members are anti FLG is irrelevant in this case because a) they are Chinese, b) they live in China c) they speak Chinese. Associating an white western educated intellectual with them by default is pure silliness and ignores Context. Finally your comment "people who don't like Falun Gong just because perhaps they are born that way" is very much disturbing to me. Falun Gong is not eye color, fat women wearing thongs or ragweed pollen. Please be very careful about labeling those who don't agree with you as being 'born that way'. It leaves no room for meaningful discussion. Bedbug1122 (talk) 22:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I'm really glad to learn my 'dislike' of Falun Gong is apparently in my genes or because of my closet membership of the CCP, and not from meeting reactionary types in cyberspace who never accept they, or Li Hongzhi, can ever be wrong, as I had originally thought Ohconfucius (talk) 12:56, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, let me repeat it is funny how you take this so personally, your remark, if I guess correctly, relates to this statement of mine "Sure there are some people who don't like Falun Gong just because perhaps they are born that way." Again, both Ohconfucius, and Bedbug1122 overlooked the perhaps word, and you continue to insist that I just said that everybody who does not like Falun Gong was born that way or are CCP members. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 15:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Your writing "presumably" only made it a veiled personal attack instead of a full-frontal personal attack. Anyway, you seem to have missed my use of the word "apparently". Ohconfucius (talk) 01:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

And Bedbug is right. Let's not forget the propaganda perspective isn't just to channel negative emotions... (see image added) --Ohconfucius (talk) 12:56, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, but when it leads to torture, then I think it's safe to say that it is negative. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 15:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

• I just proved it to you with the image above that it isn't always negative, and you start proselyting again! Ho hum...

It is funny how you take everything so personally, when this actually was started by a question, not a statement, and it is a discussion about the ratio of people who are self declared anti-Falun Gong and are also pro-CCP vs. people with no CCP connections.

To debunk a bit further:

1. "What's up with the link to WP:NPA" => Simple Seb, when you tell me "you will simply have to get out and leave." I will consider that as WP:NPA.
2. "surgically changed my face to Caucasian" => 1. I did not point my finger at you in person, 2. your statement shows up as a string of letters so I can not really assert if it is true or not, or if full context is given. Everything is possible, and all that is fine. Since we are on Wikipedia, WP:V asks us to show up the mainstream source when we edit pages. And that is all that matters, to keep focused on the text, right? Why do you want to put words in my mouth and make it look that it is personal? I can assure you I whole heartedly respect your face whatever color it may be. Your words try to portray me as racist, and I can assure you that I'm not, but I can also ask you to prove it if you insist on it.
3. "a) they are Chinese, b) they live in China c) they speak Chinese", d) they have a lot of money, e) they don't speak only Chinese, f) they try to influence the world with the outreach of embassies, media, Confucius schools, etc. => so my statement becomes relevant when speaking statistically, just a few sources on this: [7], [8], [9]
4. Again this whole discussion started from "Well aren't they usually "pro-CCP"?", it did not start from is Singer, Seb, Bedbug1122, etc... pro-CCP. Other then the fact that you made this to be a smear campaign against me, by extending my question in weird ways, there is no reason for any of you to take it personally. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I've no comment on 1),2)

3) e) The average CCP member speaks Chinese; perhaps some with knowledge of Russian. Yes there are those that speak English to some degree (e.g. Jiang Zemin), probably to the same scale as American democrats speak Chinese (i.e. insignificant). f) Sure they try, this is in line with the motives of any government, but what you had suggested was that their outreach by embassies, media, etc. was so influential that a western scholar who's academic view tentatively coincided with the CCP's on one isolated topic should be automatically thrown into their camp as a whole. Your sources are blogs that show to the contrary, their tactics are NOT working in the west, and they are perceived as threatening and bullying. In that light, if Singer indeed was influenced by the CCP it would be from violence and coercion?

4) I simply challenged the leaps in logic, and dualistic thinking as applied to suggest that Singer sympathized with CCP goals. This was not intended and I do not see it as a smear. In topics touching China, the nature of the beast is so enormous that it is very easy to loose perception of scale and fall prey to Reductio ad Hitlerum -esque arguments. That 70 million CCP members ordered the deads of tens of millions of unborn babies in China, does not mean that a western critic of the Prolife movement is inherently pro-CCP. Such should be true when discussing the FLG.

Lastly, I included 'perhaps' in quoting your comment, and I disregarded it because to me it does not change the intent of the sentence to suggest that those not holding your particular view are simply "born that way". If my concerned response to this has offended your sensibilities; I apologize. Let me re-word it:

'Please, perhaps be very careful about labeling those who don't agree with you as perhaps being 'born that way'. It leaves no room perhaps, for meaningful discussion'. Bedbug1122 (talk) 20:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

There is a point here. Characterizing someone basically independent of someone else as being "pro-" or "anti-" the goals of that other party through third-person material is at best dubious. I could easily be (as a member of the Catholic Church) symphathetic with the anti-abortion goals of Scott Roeder, but to indicate that makes me even remotely sympathetic to the assassination of George Tiller is, to my eyes, a preposterous leap of logic. Any number of people are, to varying degrees, sympathetic to the goals of many governments and other entities, but appalled at their actions. To selectively describe anyone as being "pro-" or "anti-" the position of someone else, without prsenting the full context, is probably not what we should do in any article, barring a clear statement from the party themselves, in this case Singer, regarding their views on the matter. Even then, unless their is clear evidence that the party in question, in this case Singer, supported not only the goals but also the actions taken to achieve those goals, and I don't see any real evidence to that effect, I think in the interests of neutrality and accuracy we would probably be best served by making any such value judgements based on anything other than clear, direct comments from the party themselves, or, in the irrelevant to this instance case of people who have been dead for some time, a clear statement in an academic work or biography expliciting making such a statement, and providing some degree of convincing evidence to subtantiate it. John Carter (talk) 21:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment on this discussion

This is a good example of the type of discussion you should try to avoid regarding this topic. As John Carter points out, unless there is corroboration from reliable sources for the claim that Singer was pro-CCP we have no business putting it in an entry period. There is no need to get into this kind of mudslinging over such a simple issue. I wish I had been more clear headed myself when I commented earlier but the pro-CCP claim is a violation of WP:NOR. My advice is to stop attacking each other and move on to greener pastures.PelleSmith (talk) 13:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. John Carter and PelleSmith make the points in clear terms and are the better voices of reason here. Moving on. Bedbug1122 (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Intervention

This bunch of unsubstantiated edits by HappyInGeneral (talk · contribs) are disruptive to the great amount of progress that has been made so far by editors from all different walks of wiki who have dedicated time into this extremely contentious article. As such I will now revert it. If there are any grievances or issues arising from this please discuss. Colipon+(Talk) 22:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi Colipon, let me elaborate, then tell me which one of the edits is unsubstantiated and why:

1. 20:03, 7 September 2009 Colipon (talk | contribs) (52,916 bytes) (rv SPS, POV, etc. Undid revision 312449859 by HappyInGeneral (talk)) => You did not engage yet in the talk that was started here. Please address them.
2. 21:30, 7 September 2009 HappyInGeneral (talk | contribs) (53,207 bytes) (›Membership) => I added a WP:RS regarding the number of practitioners fixed.
3. 21:31, 7 September 2009 HappyInGeneral (talk | contribs) (53,189 bytes) (›Media branches and PR Strategies: remove WP:OR) => I changed PR Strategies into appeals, if you go through the sources in that section you will see that that is a Human Rights Appeal and not PR Strategy
4. 21:40, 7 September 2009 HappyInGeneral (talk | contribs) (53,173 bytes) (›The 'cult' debate) => here I split up the section into supporters and critics of the cult term, otherwise it is intermigled and it is not clear what is the WP:Due on the subject
5. 21:53, 7 September 2009 HappyInGeneral (talk | contribs) (54,696 bytes) (›Critics of the 'cult' term: amnesty) => in these revisions I added more informations correctly sourced and attributed.

Thanks --HappyInGeneral (talk) 22:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

In my eyes the only valuable NPOV-passing edit in that group was number 2. So you can restore that if you would like. Also, if you believe my treatment of the content was unfair, you can ask other editors if you would like. I merely reverted because I cannot assume "good faith" on these edits, sorry. Without directly speaking out against you personally, I would like to point out that your edit patterns and open advocacy are often in direct violation to the article probation and as such must cease. A recurring theme for pro-FLG editors on this article is to subtly "tip the POV balance" in favour of Falun Gong and these edits are a typical example. Colipon+(Talk) 22:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, so we agree on nr. 2, then I restored that part. For the rest it is troubling that you are unable to assume "good faith", because that is necessary in order to have a constructive environment. Still it is not really relevant either, because we are discussing sources not opinions, so please address what is the problem with how the sources are attributed and presented on point 5, or with the structural change made for clarity in point 4. Point 1, is discussed in another thread above and point 3 is not that important. Thanks. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The thing that we need to avoid right now is to make presentation of everything a "for" or "against" battle. The earlier "cult" section did this extremely well in that it put everything in a fluid context that a reader can easily follow. Adding headings and then restructuring everything to "pro" and "con" makes the presentation more black-and-white and therefore much more misleading. Colipon+(Talk) 23:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

"much more misleading" because? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 00:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Re the above points, I would comment as follows:

1. We have dealt with this before, and I definitely don't feel such detail and esoteric language is suitable for the lead.
2. agreed
3. it's all to do with the use of media to get the political message across. Although I don't find it misleading or POV, I will try and find a better term.
4. I have rearranged the section slightly. It was essentially rewritten from the previous problematic version by third party editor PelleSmith, and I agree that it is more neutral than any version we have had before. Splitting is unnecessary because it breaks up the flow of argumentation, and becomes an invitation for either 'side' to firebomb with quotes which favour their own arguments.
5. I believe you were trying to make a point with this edit. It is exactly the sort of disruptive firebombing which has blocked progress at this family of articles for so long, contributing to the significant bloat. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

1. Please state your opinion in the relevant section #Partial_rv_to_intro.
2. ok
3. "it's all to do with the use of media to get political message across." here is one point where your POV is showing because you are stating things that are not in accordance with the majority of WP:RS and is against common sense, because what practitioners are doing is a Human Rights Appeal. There is no political party favored in their message, there is only a call to stop the persecution.
4. OK, I'll go and check
5. What is disruptive in adding sources and balancing a blatantly POV version of the cult label? What is disruptive in this talk? Isn't it more destructive to have lightning fast reverts without proper discussions, basically owning the article? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 20:27, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

No one person owns the article. In fact there has been a very large group of editors working in concert to improve the article. I would suggest that it is in fact you who might want to consult WP:OWN.Simonm223 (talk) 20:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

HappyInGeneral, there is no need to lash out at other editors for WP:OWN when a vast array of editors have finally begun to work on solid content on these articles and disassembling the Falun Gong POV fortress that SPAs have built in the past two years. To me it is not only ironic but also disrespectful to good faith editors. Colipon+(Talk) 02:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me assure you that I have absolutely no intention of being disrespectful. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 15:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

1. I did. What d'ya think this was?

3. nobody said there was party politics involved. There can be politics without parties.

5. It appears that when you get to the point where it is in 'balance' for you, most of us have an issue with WP:UNDUE on our hands. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:27, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Karma and qigong

OK, this may be a bit of a reach as well. We know that Li said karma was a substance physically found in the body. T his of course sounds to many westerners rather, well, odd. In Ownby's 2008 book, page 10, he states that during the qigong boom some well-known Chinese scientists claimed to have found the material existence of qi. Having this information included somewhere, probably the qigong article, would probably be useful. It would maybe also help to reference it here, to establish that Li's claims are not unprecedented.
By the way, the PRC's record for science in this area is not exactly spotless. I know that in a collection of Skeptical Inquirer articles I read several years ago, as I remember a collection of Martin Gardner's pieces, there was one in which it reported how Chinese citizens were able to prove conclusively that they were able to identifiy hidden objects in sealed boxes. The fact that these psychics were allowed to take the boxes home with them at least overnight, and, in some cases, returned them physically damaged and with the seals open, was not of course something that the government saw fit to take into account in these studies. John Carter (talk) 17:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The biggest problem in Chinese Academe at the moment is actually a tendency to see a failed hypothesis as a failure. As a result if data tends not to support an hypothesis the research is generally shelved and not spoken about again; furthermore information that tends to support an hypothesis may, on occasion, be treated credulously. Even China Daily has reported on this problem (though don't ask me to cite a date and page number, it was a random copy I read one day on my break back when I worked over there).Simonm223 (talk) 03:21, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Better

I have reverted everything to a better state. I'm sure that everyone except Ohconfucius will agree.--FalunDafaDisciple (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Please, someone ban this user immediately. Colipon+(Talk) 19:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

WOW.....that was a massive trail of destruction!--Edward130603 (talk) 22:17, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I 'd want this guy immediately banned as well. An obvious Joe job account - nothing more. He does nothing but make comments engineered to create a caricature out of the apparent perspective of supporters of Falun Gong.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 05:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Category

Is the category Category:Victims of Communist repressions in China really necessary?? It has one article - Falun Gong. Colipon+(Talk) 16:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

LMAO...whodunnit? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 17:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Nobody involved in this debate.Simonm223 (talk) 17:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Seen it. I have the notion that there are some people going 'round creating these categories. I recently responded to an RfC on Communist Genocide and The Expulsion (author claimed it was a well-known term for the displacement of Germans after WWII)... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 17:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

That's ridonculous. I'm going to put it up for CfD. It was listed once before, but in one of those mass noms, so nothing happened. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 23:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Lets not blanket all these categories as "ridiculous" - if several notable topics come under the category, it might very well be deserving of an independent page. When we have categories as the ones here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Victims_of_political_repression , I see little reason why this one alone would become "ridiculous." Dilip rajeev (talk) 05:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 05:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry but I don't get the rationale - could you kindly expand a bit? The category is certainly notable -isn't it? At least as notable as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Victims_of_Communist_repressions_in_Poland_1939-1989 , I would say. Dilip rajeev (talk) 05:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

How other categories are named doesn't affect what THIS category is named. We already have the more neutral Category:Political repression in the People's Republic of China. Adding "victims of..." simply invited more POV-pushing. Please take your anti-PRC agenda elsewhere.--PCPP (talk) 09:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

How, then, would you explain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Political_repression_in_the_Soviet_Union and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Victims_of_Soviet_repressions, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Victims_of_Soviet_repressions_by_nationality , etc.? How come these categories help organize material - but when it comes to the CCP such organization would merely "add POV"?

Dilip rajeev (talk) 13:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

(I don't know what's to explain. You are arguing along the lines of WP:OTHERSTUFF. Read it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 11:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC))

and perhaps WP:DEADHORSE too ;-) Ohconfucius (talk) 13:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Cases like this should be worked on a case by case basis, especially considering that Category:Victims of American political repression was deleted [10]--PCPP (talk) 13:44, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

If there is only one article in the category, then the category basically fails in its primary putpose, which is to link related articles, and can fairly clearly be seen as being unnecessary. The fact that the category is also one that could be construed as being POV pushing. John Carter (talk) 14:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

At the very least, linking it to FLG as a whole is just incorrect. As the FLG touts, it has practitioners around the globe. I certainly don't see the CPP doing much repressing to the local members that like to camp out in front of the Chinese consulate in my town. Bedbug1122 (talk) 23:11, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree that a category with a single category is not a meaningful category, maybe there where more entries in it at some point, but as it stands right now it is meaningless. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 12:04, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

• What is wrong is not so much there being a category with only one article in it, but that this category was seemingly created specifically for housing this one article, like some sort of custom-made POV repository. Ohconfucius (talk) 13:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Photo

I saw there was a Photo of Falun Gong practitioners getting arrested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TiananmennBrutality.jpg in the article "People's Republic of China" and i thought that the photo would be more relevant here. But it got like immediately taken out again and after like a few months it also got taken out in the PRC article with the remark "Human rights: unnecessary and undesirable to use a propaganda photo to illustrate the article". And now i am like "WTF? why would this be called a propaganda photo?"

There actually thousands of picture like that (here are a example of a couple of hundred i found on a Falun Gong website http://photo.minghui.org/photo/Esitemap.htm) so there all propaganda? Why? Simply cause it's from a Falun Gong website? That's enough for categorically devaluing it as propaganda? So what they reenacted it all? Would be kinda hard to reenact it on Tiananmen square, wouldn't it? And the pictures of Labor camps there are fake too? You know they said the same thing about the holocaust... I am sorry but i am German an Germans tend to get pretty angry at remarks like that... (-:

BTW i am not the one who uploaded the picture or put it into the PRC article. --Hoerth (talk) 14:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

No problem. Which photo of the four on the page linked to are you discussing. My own personal belief, for what little it might be worth, is that those photos would probably best be on the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 article, because they are all most directly relevant to that subject. But the nature of the photos, and the fact that they deal with something only really marginally dealt with in this article, might cause some to question whether they would be particularly appropriate here. Also, there is the fact that all those images are copyrighted, and by wikipedia's guidelines and policies, we try to use a public domain photo wherever possible if such a photo is sufficient for the article's purposes. John Carter (talk) 15:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Well most (not all but most) of the pictures where shot by Falun Gong Practitioners themselves - so i am pretty sure they are not gonna be against using them otherwise they wouldn't have put them on western internet anyway and put themselves in danger by having shot them. But of course i don't know them personally. There is only one picture on the Falun Gong website in which i do know the guy who shot it personally (and i know him very well and know that he is not opposed to it being posted on Wikipedia). It is this one: http://photo.minghui.org/photo/images/persecution_evidence/wuju/images/zhu_hang1_big.jpg http://photo.minghui.org/photo/images/persecution_evidence/wuju/images/zhu_hang2_big.jpg And this is the background storry:http://clearwisdom.net/emh/emhweekly/2005/12/11/2005-12-08-persecution.html#12 --Hoerth (talk) 16:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The reason I am reluctant to use these photos is because they are all taken with the aim of advocating for a cause. They play on emotion and are part of a much larger public-relations campaign by Falun Gong. Colipon+(Talk) 17:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

We have discussed this before. Initially, the page held a host of pictures showing people being beaten, harassed, reenacting torture, and all that. I do not doubt that the pictures are real, and as you can see, one remained ("reenacting torture"), but it gets out of hand when the article becomes a gallery of cruelties, esp. when the issue at hand is so divisive. I am extremely aware of the power of images, and I do believe that the words in the text, rather than the pictures, should "speak." To me, the current shape of the article is already a compromise. If it was up to me, I'd take out all the pictures. But we settled on this compromise to include a few of them, but not too many.

As a side, "propaganda" wasn't my rationale and word-choice when I reverted the inclusion. Colipon's word-choice of "advocacy" is the appropriate term. If at some other article, people accused you of propaganda, just ignore that comment. It's charged. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 22:40, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

• Just because Falun Gong, Flickr, [name your source] has a photo gallery doesn't mean we have to use them. Whilst images often help to put a subject into clearer perspective, some articles are best left without. IMHO, this is one of those. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

@ Seb az86556: No you weren't the one who said "Human rights: unnecessary and undesirable to use a propaganda photo to illustrate the article". Ohconfucius said that when he removed the photo from the People's Republic of China page. But anyway I really don't care... I just thought the picture that i saw on the PRC article would be more appropriate here and i wanted to mention that if you guys want to have a picture relevent to the persecution that there is one where i know the background and have permission and that i could put up. That's all. --Hoerth (talk) 18:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

POV editing again

I have removed this series of POV edits by HappyInGeneral (talk · contribs). I want to remind said user that this is not the first time such an edit has been attempted and it has been reverted multiple times by multiple users due to its selective quoting and POV nature. Please do not do it again, as it would certainly put your good faith into question. Colipon+(Talk) 22:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

That was a central piece of information sourced to the Amnesty International added to the article, and supported by a detailed citation - what is "POV" about it? The material is centrally relevant in that section as well. Could you please expand on why you label it "POV"? Am interested in knowing. Dilip rajeev (talk) 19:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

In addition, the tone of said addition sounded more like a lecture than an article-section. I do not think we should assume that all readers of wikipedia are dumb sheep that need to be told what/how to think. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 22:47, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

This is at least the second time said user attempted inserting this content. Colipon+(Talk) 22:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

• There are a number of problems with the text, so I have restored the text written by PelleSmith. Either you guys don't realise that just because something is sourced, it doesn't necessarily mean it belongs (WP:N, WP:RELEVANT, WP:NPOV) or you're once again disingenuously attempting to firebomb the article and causing WP:UNDUE issues. Either way, this needs to stop.

  I also have a problem with the repeated insertion and unsourced reference to the Nazi swastika. I am not aware that FLG has ever been under attack for its use of the symbol, and I would say that such paranoia is completely unwarranted. What is more, the infobox is the last place such commentary should be. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The conjecturing in the last 2 sentences do seem inappropriate, but I'm not sure the Amnesty International ref isn't relevant to show the classification differences in China. Bedbug1122 (talk) 19:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Tiananmen Square Self-immolation

Having copyedited that article today I feel that the event has very notable and warrants inclusion in the main article. From looking at the different sources I get the impression that Chinese public opinion did not turn decisively against Falun Gong until the incident occurred in February 2001. It seems to have played a pivotal role in the Chinese government's media campaign against Falun Gong. Colipon+(Talk) 22:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with the article's importance. I have completely restructured the article in recent days, and I aim to present it for WP:FAC very shortly. Any positive contributions would be most welcome. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• The subject is mentioned in the index of the Ownby book several times, unfortunately in the latter part of the book I haven't gotten to yet. If the candidacy is put off till, maybe, Wednesday or Thursday, I should have whatever I can get out of that book available then. John Carter (talk) 02:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not in any hurry. It can wait the outcome of your reading. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)