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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Hyphen8d (talk | contribs) at 20:33, 30 September 2009 (more). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Moors murders

Nominator(s): Malleus Fatuorum and Parrot of Doom 22:57, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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This an account of perhaps the most famous case of child serial murders in 20th-century England, mainly because one of the murderers was a young woman. Her accomplice is still alive, incarcerated in a high-security institution for the criminally insane, the longest-serving prisoner in the English system. Parrot of Doom and I have worked hard to make this a comprehensive and accurate account of the incomprehensible events more than 40 years ago that left at least five children dead. Malleus Fatuorum 22:57, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • This article has been on my watchlist for years, so I've noticed Malleus and Parrot working hard on this recently. I believe it meets the appropriate criteria to become a featured article. It's particular great as it's one of those topics that can be very emotional, both to work on and to read (I worked on the James Bulger article about three years ago, and it was particularly emotional for me as I read about it, as he was only a little younger than me.) This article manages to describe the topic without it becoming too emotional or biased, and in a sensitive manner. It's also an important topic in British crime history, so well done and thanks for your hard work. Majorly talk 23:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ditto. This page was on my watchlist long before Fatuorum got its hands on it (am a Smiths fan). Its been fine to watch it develop over the last 3 months, and I've read it once or twice, or at least more time than I care to admit, at my age. Support. Ceoil (talk) 23:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review (Support on criterion 3)
    • File:LowerBrushesValley.jpg needs a better link (to a page where you can click to the image from) to verify that it was taken from this page, and that the image is indeed licensed under CC-BY-SA-2.0.
    • File:HoeGrain.jpg - Same as above image
    • The non-free rationale used for File:Myra at John Kilbride's grave.jpg seems rather weak. It certainly shows the emotion of the moment, but it isn't really critical to understanding the article, I don't believe. What are your thoughts on this image?
  • The rest of the images look fine. Good work. NW (Talk) 02:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Replies
  • I've altered the links to the first two images to point to the pages they came from.
  • I think a fair use claim for the picture of Hindley kneeling over the grave is justifiable, on the basis that it's an example of the type of photograph the police were using to base their search of the moor on, but I wouldn't fight you over it.

--Malleus Fatuorum 14:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I read over again the section where that particular fair use image was used, and your comment seems reasonable. I expanded the fair use rationale a bit[1], and so that image should be fine. NW (Talk) 20:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Excellent, well-written, comprehensive, very nicely structured. Three suggestions:

    (a) With quotations, I prefer to know who has said it. For example, "Such a relationship was not unusual in Holloway at that time, as 'many of the officers were gay, and involved in relationships either with one another or with inmates'". I would write: "John Smith writes that such a relationship was not unusual in Holloway at that time, as many of the officers were gay, and involved in relationships either with one another or with inmates". In-text attribution, no quotation marks. Or keep the quotations marks in cases where the words are in some way distinctive or important, but I think in-text attribution is needed, unless it's obvious from the context who is speaking.

    (b) I would like to know what happened to the dog who died during the examination to determine his age, which sounds like a very odd thing to happen, and immediately raises the question why.

    (c) "Hindley was at liberty for four days following Brady's arrest, during which time she went to her employer and asked to be sacked so that she could go on the dole. While there she found some papers belonging to Brady, which she burned." I'd like this to be explained a little. While there: where, at her and Brady's workplace? Which papers and why burn them (assuming it's known)? Also, I think "dole" should be avoided given it's an international readership.

    But these are just suggestions based on personal preference. Overall, it's excellent. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 04:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Replies
  • (a) It was a former assistant governor (who wished to remain anonymous) who made the claim that gay relationships were common in the prison at that time. I've added that in.
  • (b) The dog's death was left dangling a bit I suppose. I've added a paragraph to explain, as it also sheds some light on Hindley's mental state, but basically the test had to be done under a general anaesthetic, from which the dog didn't recover as it had an undiagosed kidney condition.
  • "(c) I've changed "dole" to "unemployment benefits". Hindley went to her and Brady's place of work, where she found some papers belonging to him. They were in an envelope she claimed she didn't open, but she said later that she believed they were plans for bank robberies, so I guess that's why she burned them, to destroy the evidence. I've altered this section in an attempt to clarify.

--Malleus Fatuorum 15:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. I have some suggestions and comments:
Arrest
You can link Cheshire Police to Cheshire Constabulary.
"While there she found some papers belonging to Brady, which she burned". Comment per SlimVirgin above.
Initial Investigation
I think you have done an excellent job in treating a complex and difficult subject with great sensitivity. My only quibble is with "Brady admitted to taking the pornographic photographs" - somehow the repetition of "pornographic" seemed unnecessary.
Later investigation
It's Hoegrain in the text but Hoe Grain in the caption. Is this a rivulet of some kind? I can see nothing on the OS.
Personal backgrounds
"He was also accepted for the Shawlands" "He also had a girlfriend". Neither "also" conveys much.
" Within a year of moving to Manchester Brady was caught trying to smuggle a sack full of stolen lead seals out of the market,". The ambiguity of "lead" and "seals" had me wondering what was in the sack for a moment. Then I wondered why anyone would hide a sack of stolen goods in the market at all. Was he trying to steal them by smuggling them, or were they already stolen?
What kind of business is "Bratby and Hinchliffe". All the others seem to get a mention.
As murderers
" Reade had been at school with Hindley's younger sister, Maureen, and had also been in a short relationship with David Smith, a local boy with three criminal convictions for minor crimes". I am not at all sure how to fix this, but we have already met Smith and at first I wondered if this was a second person with the same name.
Hattersley is not a New town in the British sense - it's an overspill estate.
Legacy
I don't doubt that Hindley has been compared to Maxine Carr, (or rather vice-versa) but the comparison is, from Carr's perspective, unreasonable and I see no need to mention it here.
Images
Link "Mug shot" in opening caption (someone might think this is just a rude remark) and the alt text could make it clear the photo is b&w as this is an important aspect of the imagery associated with the crimes.
The alt text for the Saddleworth Moor image is more interesting than the actual description, which could be a little more specific about the actual location (e.g. "looking towards..."). I realise that this may not be especially relevant to the murders, but I'm a geographer…
I think the Wardle Brook Ave caption would be better worded as per the image description i.e. "The empty space where 16 Wardle Brook Avenue once stood…." It reads oddly in that we are told that is a picture of a house, then that the house is not there.
Hollin Brown Knoll - my immediate thought on seeing the picture of the road, was - "which road?" Re the alt text, the road does not just run "from left to right in the distance", it also takes up much of the foreground.
" Part of Stalybridge Country Park". Why "part of" ?
Refs etc.
Citation 41 re UKCPI lacks a retrieval date.
What is it that is "official" about the Keith Bennett website?
Good work. Ben MacDui 11:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
CPI references shouldn't have a retrieval date; it's generated automatically by {{inflation-fn}}, and the prices in the article automatically update to reflect the current inflation rate. – iridescent 11:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me. Ben MacDui 12:34, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Replies
  • "Brady admitted to taking the pornographic photographs". I've removed the word "pornographic"; as you say, it doesn't need to be repeated.
  • "I've rewritten to try and make it clearer that Brady had stolen the lead seals from the market and was caught trying to smuggle them out.
  • "He was also accepted for the Shawlands" "He also had a girlfriend". Neither 'also' conveys much." Agreed, I've removed the "alsos".
  • It's "Hoe Grain", I've fixed that.
  • I've changed "new town" to "overspill estate".
  • I've removed the Maxine Carr reference as I think you're right, it's more relevant to Carr than it is to Hindley.
  • "I've changed the Wardle Brook Avenue caption to "The empty plot where 16 Wardle Brook Avenue in Hattersley, once stood."
  • I've linked mug shot and added the fact that the photo is B&W to the alt text.
  • "Part of Stalybridge Country Park" is how the photographer described it. It's not known exactly where Hindley's ashes were scattered, so being more specific, as in "Lower Brushes Valley, in Stalybridge Country Park", might give the impression that her ashes were scattered at the spot in the picture.

--Malleus Fatuorum 15:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: There may be a problem with the following sentence in the lead: "The police were initially aware of only three killings—those of Edward Evans, Lesley Ann Downey, and John Kilbride." The first edition of Emlyn Williams's book Beyond Belief was published immediately after the convictions in 1965. In a postscript at the end of the book Williams draws attention to the Reade and Bennett cases and their similarities to those for which Brady and Hindley were tried. Hindley herself is quoted mentioning Pauline Reade. So the police were obviously aware of the other cases, though they lacked direct evidence that Reade and Bennett were dead or that their disappearances were linked to Brady and Hindley. Could the wording be revised? Brianboulton (talk) 00:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Emlyn William's book was a semi-fictional work based on his own surmises and suppositions, most of which have proved to be unfounded and discredited. The facts presented here are based on the official police records. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The police certainly knew they were missing, but had no evidence to link them to the case, and did not know if they were alive or dead. Until you've got a body, or a confession, it isn't really correct to state that you're aware of a killing. It wasn't until 1987, when the confessions of Brady and Hindley were made, that the two children were tied to the case. Newspapers at the time mention that the police had a 'special interest' in those two children however, and that they searched on the moors for them - but still, they didn't know they'd been killed. Parrot of Doom 08:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In fact at the time that Williams' book was written the police actually suspected Keith Bennett's step-father of being involved in his disappearance, not Brady and Hindley, as the article says: "His {Keith Bennett's] step-father, Jimmy Johnson, became a suspect; in the two years following Bennett's disappearance, he was taken for questioning on four occasions". The Williams book can't be considered a credible source for anything. --Malleus Fatuorum 11:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's true - they kept bringing him in for questioning, eventually Winnie Johnson went to the police station and insisted (pleaded) that they stop bothering him. She told them that if she suspected him of anything, she wouldn't still be living with him. After that, they left him alone. Parrot of Doom 11:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Most British people of my generation know a lot about these notorious murderers and their subsequent fates and, to be honest, I would not have read the article if it were not an FA candidate, but I am glad I did. I am very impressed with the prose, particularly the flow, which is very professional. But I am more impressed with the neutral point of view that is constant throughout the article. I imagine that this must have been difficult. There are a few very slightly odd expressions that I would not have chosen to use, but they give character to the article, so I'll let them be. This is the best prepared FAC I have seen this year. As I have said, I am very impressed. Graham Colm Talk 17:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm overwhelmed by your praise Graham. I think that because it was such a difficult topic to write about, Parrot of Doom and I had no option but to be very careful in our handling of it, and we were able to rein each other in whenever it became necessary. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have to admit that I haven't slept well on more than a few nights, from reading some of the details of this case. Its been difficult to keep that tone out of my additions to the article. Parrot of Doom 20:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I quite understand. I also had some difficulty with some of the more gratuitous details of Rosewood massacre, and at times had to hold the topic with mental tongs away from myself. It's an odd mix: feeling or sensing pain helps my writing, but it's often so disturbing that better writing just may not be worth it. --Moni3 (talk) 12:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I raised this same question myself at one point, but the consensus as I recall was with the statement on the web site: "We are proud to be on the recommended reading lists of many university and college courses around the world, and are regularly used by TV and film companies conducting research. We are delighted to be acknowledged in many leading crime books." It appears to be accurate, and is probably a good resource to be listed as an external link. There's nothing that can't be sourced elsewhere anyway.
I always take "praise about us" statements on particular websites with a very large grain of salt, so I'd be happier to see those praises from the original sites. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point. I've replaced with dead tree sources. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support - I reviewed this article for GAC, and with a few exceptions my main thought was "why isn't this at FAC already?" An excellent article with (to turn a phrase) a distinguished editorial pedigree :P. Ironholds (talk) 22:50, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Well written and fucked up. By coincidence I read this article some months ago before the earnest effort to improve it. It has grown quite well since then and may the forces of sanity be with you both when this gets on the main page. If Hindley and Brady have any kind of reputation similar to Ted Bundy, there will be no mercy on written language representing what they did. --Moni3 (talk) 12:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • If this FAC passes I think we'd be quite happy never to see this article on the main page. You wouldn't believe the obscenities that were scibbled in some of the books I got from the library over the pictures of Brady and Hindley. TFA would be a nightmare I think. --Malleus Fatuorum 12:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is a fine article - bravo to the authors. Murder of James Bulger desparately needs as much attention as this article has been given.
I want to support. However, given that this article also stands as the biography of Myra Hindley and Ian Brady (following the recent AFD) I am not convinced that all of the relevent details from their separate articles been merged here. In particular, I am unhappy at the omission of the controveries regarding The Smiths's "Suffer Little Children" and Marcus Harvey's "Myra" (see Sensation (exhibition)). There is some relevant discussion on the talk page, but in my opinion both of these are notable and important, and the article is not "comprehensive" without them; neither of them is the dreaded "In popular culture". -- Hyphen8d (talk) 19:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think its probably a good idea to include a link to the talk discussion, which better summarises how the two main editors (of which I am one) have approached the situation. Parrot of Doom 20:02, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I did mention it, but thanks for adding the link. I would not advocate, for example, adding links to The Pretenders or Chrissie Hynde (a name of a minor precursor band), Steve Cox (his paintings have not had the same reaction - and you can see why) or From Hell or "No One Is Innocent" (only minor references). -- Hyphen8d (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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