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Name

In an edition of Air Forces Monthly shortly after the merger they stated that BAE Systems stood for "British Aerospace Electronic Systems" - being an amalgamation of British Aerospace and the "Electronic Systems" of MES (the Marconi name being unusable due to the intention of GEC to adopt it). Does anyone know if this was a plan that was abandoned or simply the magazine getting it wrong? --Mark83 16:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The magazine got it wrong - see the Name/Capitalisation guidelines above. Employees were told that BAE "didn't mean anything". haydn_likes_carpet 23:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image request

A picture of BAE's HQ at Warwick House in Farnborough would be an excellent addition to this article. I can't find an image anywhere. Presumably it would have to be taken by a BAE employee with the appropriate permission as I doubt the immediate area is open to the public? Mark83 21:17, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the area is restricted. The use of cameras / camera phones is prohibited across all BAE sites, so it may be difficult to get a photo of Warwick/Hertford House. Johnwalton 11:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I used to work there and I'm pretty sure I took a photo of the exterior of Hertford House before I left. But, it could take me some considerable time to find and scan it. 81.77.159.18 01:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC) (Deliberately anon ;-)[reply]
The Farnborough site itself is not restricted, and although it remains private property is nevertheless open to public access. Indeed, the public frequently have to access the site to gain access to unrelated businesses that share the site or border the site. The BAE Systems buildings themselves are, of course, very restricted access. 20.133.0.13 (talk) 12:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possible use of material from this article by BAE Systems

I was reading the new BAE Systems heritage website and noticed almost verbatim entries there compared to this article (I noticed because I wrote the passage in question). So either I am guilty of a copyright violation from some BAE publication and have forgotten I did it! Or BAE Systems has based some of its heritage website on this article. If the latter is the case is there anything we should do about it? Mark83 18:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is bad. Editors should be getting info from their site, not vice versa. From what I've seen someone e-mails the site's webmaster saying they are violating the GFD license. That's all I know of that. Good luck.. -Fnlayson 20:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have. Some of the template e-mails are a bit legalistic, I sent a toned down "enquiry" type message. I agree with you that it's troubling - you go to the company websites for concrete information, it's worrying that their information could be based on Wikipedia! Apart from recognising my own writing, the other reason I reckon they used the material I highlighted below is because of this piece of the BAE website. Read the last paragraph and then read the "BAE Systems acquisition" section of United Defense. Again it's paraphrased, but I think unmistakeably adapted from our article. Mark83 21:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Section of this article in question

As a result of the British Aerospace-MES merger, BAE Systems is the successor to many of the most famous British aircraft, defence electronics and warship manufacturers.

Marconi Electronic Systems had a heritage of almost 100 years. Following GEC's acquisition of Marconi in 1968 the Marconi brand was used for its defence businesses, for example Marconi Space & Defence Systems (MSDS). GEC's history of military products dates back to World War I with its contribution to the war effort then including radios and bulbs. World War II consolidated this position, as the company was involved in important technological advances, most notably radar.[7] Between 1945 and 1999, the company became one of the world's most important defence contractors. GEC's major defence related acquisitions included Associated Electrical Industries in 1967, English Electric (including its Marconi subsidiary) in 1968, Yarrow Shipbuilders in 1985, Plessey companies in 1989, parts of Ferranti's defence business in 1990, Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering in 1995 and Kværner Govan in 1999. In June 1998, MES acquired Tracor, a major American defence contractor, for US$1.4 billion.[8]

British Aerospace was the result of massive consolidation of UK aircraft manufacturers since World War II. British Aerospace was formed on 29 April 1977 by the nationalisation and merger of The British Aircraft Corporation, the Hawker Siddeley Group and Scottish Aviation.[9] Both BAC and Hawker Siddeley were themselves the result of various mergers and acquisitions; BAC incorporated English Electric Aviation, Vickers-Armstrong (Aircraft), the Bristol Aeroplane Company and Hunting Aircraft, while Hawker Siddeley was formed by Hawker Aircraft's purchase of aviation businesses including Gloster Aircraft, Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft, A V Roe and later merger with de Havilland in 1959. The acquisition of Folland and Blackburn Aircraft followed, and in 1960 this group was consolidated as the Hawker Siddeley Group.

BAE website entry

The Company is the successor to many of the most famous British aircraft, defence electronics and warship manufacturers.

Formed on 29 April 1977, British Aerospace was the result of large-scale consolidation of UK aircraft manufacturers including the British Aircraft Corporation, the Hawker Siddeley Group and Scottish Aviation. Both Hawker Siddeley and BAC were the result of various mergers and acquisitions; BAC incorporated Vickers-Armstrong and English Electric (Aircraft), Hunting Aircraft and the Bristol Aeroplane Company, while Hawker Siddeley was formed by Hawker Aircraft's purchase of aviation businesses including A V Roe, Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft, Gloster Aircraft and a subsequent merger in 1959 with the de Havilland aircraft group. . Folland and Blackburn Aircraft were also acquired and the business was consolidated as the Hawker Siddeley Group in 1960.

Marconi Electronic Systems' heritage stretches back almost 100 years, with the Marconi company purchased by the General Electric Company in 1968.GEC's portfolio of military equipment began in World War I when it supplied radios and bulbs followed by radar equipment in the Second World War. Subsequently a series of acquisitions helped to consolidate its position as a major defence contractor. Between 1945 and 1999 it acquired Associated Electrical Industries in 1967, English Electric (including its Marconi subsidiary in 1968), Yarrow shipbuilders in 1985, Plessey companies in 1989, Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering in 1995, Tracor in 1998 and Kvaerner Govan in 1999.[1]

Result

As a result of an e-mail to heritage@baesystems.com and correspondence with a BAE staff member the section in question was pulled from the website. No admission of use or explanation. Mark83 21:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Flag

I noticed the little edit war about the inclusion of the flag. Rather than appealing to precedent (always a bad idea), it would be good if those wishing to add the flag could describe here what encyclopedic benefit it brings to the article. Specifically, how does  United Kingdom tell us more than United Kingdom does? If we get a good answer to that I have no problem with having the flag. Otherwise it should not be here. --John 16:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much folks for starting an edit war on an FAC that has been stable for about 4 years! I don't much care, but John's argument above seems like 100% common sense to me. Mark83 16:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a read of WP:FLAG:
  • Flags "[Should] Help the reader rather than decorate - Flag icons are commonly misused as decoration. Adding a country's flag next to its name does not provide additional encyclopedic information in a general context, and is often simply distracting. Wikipedia generally strongly eschews the use of images for decorative purposes, preferring those that provide additional essential information or needed illustration." Mark83 16:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Many people outside of the UK, and some inside, do not recognise the UK as a country and are confused about it (various surveys, including one conducted by a UK national newspaper in the USA that gave results saying that the UK is in the Middle East). Many people think of the UK as being England, which is obviously incorrect. Stating England instead of the UK would also be incorrect as England is not a sovereign nation. Adding the Union Flag gives people an additional iconic symbol to associate with the UK that is probably far better known than the UK or the United Kingdom. Because we, the writers of the encyclopaedia, know the difference between the UK and England and know where the UK is, does not mean that we should presume (wrongly) that other people also know this information. Darkieboy236 16:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the article with a flag in place, it makes it easier for the casual reader to scan the page for info without reading. Visual aids should not be dismissed. Furthermore, a flag will mean a degree of consistency with other companies.Darkieboy236 16:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your point about UK vs. England would make sense if England was mentioned in the infobox. It is not. So let's boil it down to the point about UK with flag or UK without flag. The idea that more people could correctly identify the United Kingdom from its flag than the text "United Kingdom" is obviously wrong. I don't much care, it's the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude that bothers me. Although thank you for discussing it. Mark83 16:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, I apologise. That's not justified. Mark83 17:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Although WP:FLAG isn't an official policy (yet), I'll clarify why I restored the flag in the infobox that someone else deleted. WP:FLAG states right up at the top: "Flag icons may be appropriate in infoboxes to indicate nationality...." Later it says flag icons shouldn't be repeated in infoboxes, implying that their use in infoboxes is acceptable.

Furthermore, as far as governments are concerned (especially the U.S. government), corporations are treated like citizens in most respects, and given most of the same rights, except for the right to vote. As such, corporations have nationalities, and a visual aid to identify it is indeed appropriate. =Axlq 17:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As Centrx put it at Template talk:Infobox Company: "In addition to being redundant, it [inclusion of flag in the company infobox] is misleading. Many of these companies are international, they have headquarters in a certain country but their business is elsewhere. It also makes it appear as though there is a certain patriotism involved, "flying the flag" rather than simply happening to be located in a country. It is at best pointless and at worst just wrong. These flagicons were intended to be used in situations where there is not enough space to put the whole name of the country, and in the stub templates to make them more noticeable and substantial." BAE is a perfect example - has a minority British shareholder base, sells more abroad, and owns more abroad. Mark83 17:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see neither the value of quoting another editor, nor the logic in that argument. If it's appropriate to name the location of a corporation, it's appropriate to supply a visual aid for it.
I'll say that BAE is indeed a perfect example of where a flag icon is appropriate. This article focuses on the parent company, which is UK-based. We have other articles for divisions in other countries, such as BAE Systems Inc. and my current employer BAE Systems Land and Armaments. Every employee is aware of the nationality of the parent company, and the nationality of their own company. If the location is named in the infobox, it's perfectly reasonable to include a visual-aid flag - for any article about this company. If you don't like the flag, then remove the location as well. =Axlq 18:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing wrong with quoting someone else if you believe they have made a good point. You don't see logic in my argument?? And then you say if I don't like the flag then remove it and the location text as well? And no middle ground? That is the defintion of illogical and also not a little intransigent. I've lived with the flag icon on this article for a long, long time with no problem. It's just the arguments recently put forward for keeping it have been weaker than those put forward for removing it so I've got involved in the discussion. I'm yet to be persuaded to change my mind.Mark83 19:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's fine if you believe someone else makes a good argument; I simply saw no value in quoting that person as an authority, and I disagreed that the quoted argument was valid, because each sentence in the quotation contained an assertion that I considered false.
Middle ground? All I'm saying, if it's inappropriate to designate a location with a flag icon, then it's logically just as inappropriate to designate it with words. Don't discount the value of visual aids.
I have no stake or interest in changing anyone's mind. I don't mind either way if the flag icon stays or goes. I lean towards keeping it, that's all. It improves the appearance of the article, and does not detract value from the article. The only reason I restored the flag in the first place was because the person who deleted it cited WP:FLAG as a reason, when it seemed (to me) that WP:FLAG actually supported the flag's inclusion. =Axlq 19:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, OK. I see how you could think that - no I wasn't quoting that person as an authority.
As for "It improves the appearance of the article" -- that is pure aesthetics and thus not a reason for keeping the flag. WP:FLAG in that sense very much does NOT support keeping it. "if it's inappropriate to designate a location with a flag icon, then it's logically just as inappropriate to designate it with words" is totally illogical! Farnborough, United Kingdom, conveys all the information needed. Adding the flag is analogous to writing Farnborough, United Kingdom, United Kingdom. i.e. it's redundant. Further, if we went totally the other way and just had Farnborough and a British flag it would be much less informative because while no one could be confused by the link United Kingdom, some could be confused with just a Union Flag because not everyone will know what it represents. Mark83 19:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What is wrong with having Farnborough, England, UK as the location like lots of other companies: Barclays, Vodafone, HBOS etc. ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.131.61 (talk • contribs)
What value does adding "England" give? Absolutely nothing as far as I can tell. -- Astronaut (talk) 18:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FAC comments

I'll leave these here to avoid cluttering up the FAC page with niggly writing points:

  • In the first para of History: I'm possibly putting too much emphasis on the need to separate the lead and main text, but the introduction of the 'BAE Systems-MES merger' feels much too abrupt here. Could it be expanded on the lines of 'BAE Systems was formed in 1999 by the merger of two companies with long histories in Defence manufacturing: British Aerospace and Marconi Electronic Systems. As such the company is the successor to many of the most famous British aircraft, defence electronics and warship manufacturers.'?
  • In any case, if the wording in the lead is correct, it shouldn't be BAE Systems-MES merger anyway, since BAE Systems was the company formed by the merger, not one of the companies being merged. If you don't like suggestion one, suggest that it should at least be re-worded to 'British Aerospace-Marconi Electronic Systems (MES) merger'.
  • 'Marconi Electronic Systems had a heritage of almost 100 years'. Being picky, can you have a heritage of years? I'm not quite sure, but it feels as if it ought be a 'heritage of 100 years of experience' or something similar.
  • Suggest checking that all abbreviations/acronyms are given in full with short form after in brackets at the first appearance in the main text - done in some (many?) cases, but not for MES. May be other cases.
  • Should GEC be given in full (General Electric Company?) at the first occurence in the main text? Or would that not be more meaningful? In any case it should probably be introduced more fully - 'British Engineering and Defence firm GEC'? 4u1e 11:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Between 1945 and 1999, the company became one of the world's most important defence contractors': Which company is 'the company'? GEC presumably, but then we're not exactly talking about Marconi any more. Better to be specific. I know you've already stated that Marconi branding was used for defence firms within GEC, but I'm not sure the significance of this is clear at present. I know the history of these companies is horribly complicated and you are right not to get dragged into it, but I feel some adjustment is needed to make this para clear, I'm not sure what it is yet, though! ;-) I'll think some more! 4u1e 11:25, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, you're right. The main text can't rely on the introduction to establish important points. I've made the merger details clearer.
    • "Heritage of 100 years" - I'm honestly not sure, but the more I think about it the more I think you're right. I've reworded that.
    • I've reorganised the article a bit in the past few weeks, hence abbreviations not being explained at the first instance. I will double check.
    • The first instance of GEC > General Electric Company. It reads "BAE Systems was formed on 30 November 1999 by the GB£7.7 billion merger of British Aerospace (BAe) and Marconi Electronic Systems (MES), the defence subsidiary of The General Electric Company (GEC).[5]" - putting "British Engineering and Defence firm GEC" in there might make the sentence clumbsy?
      • How about: "BAE Systems was formed on 30 November 1999 by the GB£7.7 billion merger of two British companies: Marconi Electronic Systems (MES), the defence subsidiary of The General Electric Company (GEC) and aircraft and ship manufactuer British Aerospace (BAe)."? Is that an accurate statement? 4u1e 15:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • As for "Between 1945 and 1999, the company became one of the world's most important defence contractors" - it's really the defence business of GEC. GEC was a defence contractor before it acquired EE/Marconi - it was only after that acquisition that the defence businesses were folded into Marconi. Therefore I've changed it to the more generic "Between 1945 and 1999, GEC's defence business became one of the world's most important defence contractors." Does that work? Or should " Following GEC's acquisition of Marconi in 1968 the Marconi brand was used for its defence businesses" be merged with that statement somehow to explain it better. You're right, it is an extremely complicated history, but I'm open to any suggestions to make it easier to understand. Mark83 11:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • If you're talking about 'becoming one of the world's biggest defence contractors', you need to be talking about a defence contractor, not 'GEC's defence business', I think. Did all of the defence work fall under a Marconi parent or shell company? Or a division within GEC? Or was it less structured than that? 4u1e 17:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would it be worth summarising (one liner) in the Heritage section what each company was at the time of the merger? In 99 BAe was already well down the track to being a 'systems integrator' and was far from being simply an aircraft manufacturer, as implied by the heritage section. Marconi was much less of a single entity at the time and so is rather harder to define (at the time of the merger there were those who said that Marconi companies didn't mind merging with BAe - it was working with each other they didn't like!). Something along the lines of 'GEC's defence interests, gathered under the Marconi brand, were largely focussed on defence electronics and ?'? 4u1e 11:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've read reports of how they were a "good fit" - BAe being largely (but not totally as you point out) a platform provider, while MES was more a systems integrator. Would that be a good way of summarising (and referencing) it? As for how to describe Marconi - I think that (a systems integrator) plus VSEL/YSL (naval/land systems).Mark83 11:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • 'Platform provider' (with an explanation of what it is!) is probably a good term for BAe at the time - although my personal recollection is that they were already chucking around the systems integrator label before the merger, obviously go with what the sources at the time said. 4u1e 11:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Formation: 'It was widely anticipated...' When was it widely anticipated? My vague recollection is that the idea had been floating around for quite a while. 4u1e 11:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this section, would it be useful to mention the strong links at the time between BAe and DASA through Airbus and Eurofighter? These were part of what made the move look logical (to me anyway, obviously that would have to be sourced!) 4u1e 11:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have other things I need to do today, but will come back later - so far it's looking like it's just clarifying various points, rather than anything more substantial! 4u1e 12:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's hard to tell, but I think all my points above have been dealt with (I haven't checked the acronym thing) 4u1e 15:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Background info

I think it would be a good to copy background info from here to the BAe and MES article, when things get settled down with the FA changes. Those articles look like they could use more info. I can help some with the BAe info, but I don't know enough about Marconi to do much there. Thanks. -Fnlayson 18:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also if this article starts to get overloaded with detail (due to my obsession with understanding how and why things start!) the excess could possibly go to those articles. 4u1e 18:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further niggles

Further niggling writing/structure comments (Stop me when I get annoying! :D)-

  • Most of the above is now addressed, although I'd like a clearer idea of how GEC's defence work was structured at the time, not really for inclusion in this article, but to be sure that the current wording gives the right impressions.
  • Anyway, back to niggly stuff. 'British Aerospace executive John Weston' Is there a word missing there?
  • I suggest it would be useful to introduce Boeing, McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed Martin at first appearance. Many may only be aware of them as builders of airliners, and you need to say they're American to bring out the significance of the pressure on European companies. Ditto for DASA, Aerospatiale and CASA.
    • CASA still not explained, but they were very much a minority partner, I think?
  • 'Firewalling' - will readers understand this? They may well do actually, the concept is far more widely used (in a computing context) than it was 10 years ago. Can also be called a Chinese Wall, for which concept Terry Pratchett gives a nice explanation towards the beginning of Going Postal ;-) 4u1e 18:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks very much for your comments.
  • Well GEC was reorganised in 1998. Describing the move The Independent said "GEC's three main divisions will be Marconi Electronic Systems, a defence electronics business; Marconi Communications, which makes telecommunications equipment; and Industrial Electronics, which makes products ranging from Hotpoint washing-machines to gas pumps." (The Independent July 5, 1998 "Profile: Lord Simpson - The action man of GEC; The big test is still ahead, writes Edward Orlebar") Does that clarify it enough or would you like more detail? I'm happy to dig a bit more.
  • No there is not a word missing in "British Aerospace executive John Weston" - I was going for the generic "executive", i.e. board member. However you're right, it would be better to be more specific, I'll double check and add his correct title.
  • Good edit to point out the American corps. - which makes the John Weston quote more significant. You think DASA/Aerospatiale etc. need a short description at first mention, or just clarify nationality?
  • I've linked firewalling. Explanation enough? Mark83 19:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, although you may pick up a complaint that the article is almost entirely about the 'Chinese Wall' term rather than 'firewall'. I think that's probably just a shortcoming of the 'Chinese Wall' article, though. 4u1e 09:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The news article lists Weston as the "managing director of BAe's defense wing". That's too long to list imo, so executive seems fine. -Fnlayson 20:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I suspect his business card at the time would have had 'Managing Director (Defence)' on it then, which is short enough, but maybe not really in prose style. Another option would be 'board member'. My concern is that 'executive' is a bit too generic and could sound like 'sales executive' or 'junior executive'. 4u1e 09:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Do you know that position was on the BAe board then or is that just a guess? -Fnlayson 14:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Good point! It was an assumption (a pretty safe assumption) but given its not verifiable as yet I've reverted to "British Aerospace Defence Managing Director John Weston" -- that sounds OK I think. Mark83 14:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • That's fine. I asked that because board of director members in most large US corporations, don't generally have other duties with the company. There may be executive councils for positions like business unit/division chiefs though. That may not be different from UK and European corps though. -Fnlayson 14:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • To use a current example, Walt Havenstein is both a BAE Systems plc board member and president & CEO of BAE Systems Inc. However I can't be sure about Weston so better to leave it as we have agreed. Mark83 15:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Criticisms

I think more details could be added to the criticisms section. For example Zimbabwe is mentioned; they were supplying Robert Mugabe, until as recently as 2000. Could do with more details on their arms deals with Indonesia, which facilitated the violent oppression of East Timor. There is some good information about some of their misdeeds here - http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=185 - that could be included. Surely their hilarious attempt at greenwashing in 2006 by developing biodegradable landmines and lead-free bullets also deserves a mention. Vorpaul 19:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I'll certainly look into it. However one important issue - corporatewatch fails to distinguish between British Aerospace and BAE Systems at times. e.g. "Arms exports began as early as 1978, but the biggest controversy began in November 1996" -- both of these dates before the creation of BAE Systems. Anything post-November 1999 is of course relevant to this article. Mark83 20:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More FAC comments

I know, I'm a born niggler:

  • 'Expansion' - Starts rather abruptly: can we have a little introduction to this? I don't think I know enough to make a proper suggestion, but topics to be covered in an intro might include: why did the expansion take place? (was this a reaction to changing markets, a change in BAE systems view of its role, a tidying up after the merger, or just part of the normal development of a large international company?); where have these changes left the company? (it looks to have continued the move from aircraft manufacturer to defence systems integrator at a quick glance); have whatever these factors are been consistent over the last eight years?
  • Provided such an overarching view can be established, it would then be useful in the rest of the section to tie the various changes to that view.
  • I realise that this might be difficult to ref, by the way! 4u1e 14:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the same time (and yes, this is an unreasonable request!) the 'Expansion' section feels very long compared to the rest of the article. Can it be cut down? Do we need the details of all the mergers? Something to consider, anyway. 4u1e 14:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Minor) The link to Broughton goes to a disambiguation page. And should that be Brough, East Riding of Yorkshire? 4u1e 14:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
On second thoughts, I guess it's not Brough, they do Hawks there, not airliners! 4u1e 14:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed.Mark83 14:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much (again) for the comments. All very constructive. Mark83 14:48, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No trouble. Sorry it's taken a while. 4u1e 14:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First sentences

An earlier edit makes me think the first 2 sentences should say what BAE is before getting into the defence ranking and so forth. Something like this would do that.

BAE Systems plc (BAE) is a British defence and aerospace company headquartered at Farnborough, England, which has worldwide interests, particularly in North America through its subsidiary BAE Systems Inc. BAE is the world's third largest defence contractor,[1] the largest in Europe, and a commercial aerospace products manufacturer.

That's a first cut anyway. Give it some thought anyway. -Fnlayson 16:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. Good idea. It takes care of both Cruftbane's concern about how it reads and mine about talking about where it's based etc. before what it does. Mark83 17:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sure. That could be rearranged/reworded a bit more. I thought about including the ranking after 'British defence and aerospace company', but it seems repeatitive to mention defense twice in a sentence. Tweak it more if you want. -Fnlayson 18:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, you're right. It's too piecemeal to do it like that. It is established that BAE is a defence/aerospace company in the first sentence and that is a top ranking defence contractor in the 2nd, which is fine. Also both BAE & commentators value the company's US assets highly, so mentioning those in the first sentence is probably better. Mark83 22:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Images

Looks like this article is an FA now. I just thought it'd be good to have some images of BAE's facilities, like one of headquarters at Farnborough. Looks like that'd mean someone taking a picture of it and uploading it. -Fnlayson 01:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's me again (81.77.159.18). I've found the photos I mentioned above. See Image:FAC HertfordHouse1.jpg, Image:FAC HertfordHouse2.jpg, Image:FAC HertfordHouse3.jpg, Image:FarnboroughAerospaceCentre panorama.jpg, Image:FarnboroughAerospaceCentre1.jpg and Image:FarnboroughAerospaceCentre2.jpg. Use the photos if you wish. I'll delete any remaining unused in a couple of weeks. 87.115.6.70 13:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC) (Deliberately anon ;-)[reply]

Criticisms

Mark83 reverted "BAE systems is also accused of employing spies to gather secret information from its opponents <ref-"Martin and me" by Mark Thomas, Guardian 4 December 2007 G2 section pages 4-7. Transcript at Indimedia, CAAT statement, George Monbiot article February 13, 2007.-/ref>. " He asked "what opponents?" Did he check the refs? Vernon White . . . Talk 18:30, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • He also said that was covered in the first paragraph of the section. Take a look at it.. -Fnlayson 18:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I could see from the refs what you were talking about. I was making a point that you don't finish sentences in a reference. You say "BAE systems is also accused of employing spies to gather secret information from opponents such as CAAT..." and then add a reference. Primarily, as my edit summary and Fnlayson pointed out, it was repitition. Mark83 (talk) 21:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies. More haste, less speed. Vernon White . . . Talk 00:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reason for Hertfordshire

The reason i have added Herfordshire is that this or it predecessor played a vital role in the economy of Hertfordshire, particularly but not limited to Hatfield. Simply south (talk) 00:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TFA: postponing to April 29th ?

I have suggested to the FA Director to postpone putting this FA on MainPage to April 29th, the anniversary of the founding of British Aerospace, the predecessor of BAE Systems, in 1977. (See User talk:Raul654#TFA ideas for April 21st, 25th & 29th.) --PFHLai (talk) 16:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Rest v. Other (Parts of the World)

I dont want to drag a great article into a revert war, so I'm bringing it up here. To me, "Rest of the world" seems very off hand-ish. Almost as though the "rest of the world" doesnt matter. Whereas "Other parts of the world" seems as though they are being included and not in an afterthought kind of a way. It could just be me, but since it was reverted, someone else thinks otherwise. Comments? (on a side note, this post was blocked twice due to a spam filter... that I was adding some odd link... I'm not, and this was a direct paste of the last time I tried to add this) Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 17:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was removing those links because I couldnt post unless I did. They are blacklisted links... Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 17:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ya know, I tried repeatedly, thinking that would definately eliminate that issue... but nope. I ended up having to go to the blacklist section and start poking around there to find out that that was the issue... I was freaking out. No problem though, I realize that it musta looked odd. Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 17:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But, here's the link you removed: Indimedia. If it's blacklisted, why was I just able to post it here? --12.193.27.158 (talk) 17:53, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thats a great question... but I can post too, and so can Fnlayson. You can check out my contribs to see that I did try to get help and am not making this up though... Queerbubbles | Leave me Some Love 17:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see it now. Over on the Meta Wiki's multi-wiki blacklist, it was removed just a couple minutes before your post that removed the link. --12.193.27.158 (talk) 18:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I still think "Rest of world" is more encyclopedic. But as I suggested in my edit summary I don't feel really strongly about the change so if you want to revert to "other parts of the world" I won't object. " Australia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Sweden" could be another substitute heading? Mark83 (talk) 23:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of the company divisions is called 'UK and the Rest of the World.' (The other one is North America.)149.254.200.220 (talk) 20:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First Robotics

might it be relevent to mention that BAE systems hosts multiple robotics teams, as well as several regional events? Eljawa (talk) 16:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism left and right

Why has this article not been semi-protected yet? I thought featured articles were semi-protected during their time on the main page. -Fnlayson (talk) 17:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the type is new to me, at any rate: under Internet Explorer 5.1 and Netscape 7.0 on a Mac, and Internet Explorer 6.0 on a PC, the page displays perfectly normally: but under Firefox 2.0 on a PC, it displays a pageful of "FUCK!!!"s (I have them all open simultaneously at the moment).
How's that been done? Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right, it's not your browser, it's just that you happened to read the article, with Firefox, at the point where it was vandalized. Anyway, I've requested (WP:RFPP) that the article be protected against IP editing for a while. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 18:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right, reloading cleared it up. Thanks. Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for requesting protection. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was declined. I hadn't realized that this is the Main Page featured article. The good news is that a lot of editors are watching it, so vandalism tends not to last. The bad news is that 90% or so of IP edits are going to be vandalism or unconstructive changes. The good news is that this will drop off sharply once midnight (UTC) comes around and another article takes its place on the Main Page. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 20:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just the price of success - Watch and fix! - Ahunt (talk) 20:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We have quite different definitions of "success". (But this is not the place to hash over the larger issue of semi-protection for main page articles.) -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deterrent/Arsenal

The text says this: "BAE is also the UK's only nuclear submarine manufacturer and thus produces a major element of the UK's nuclear deterrent."

I wonder whether using the word "arsenal" is less POV than "deterrent", since it is POV that nuclear weapons constitute a deterrent. If one does believe that nuclear weapons are a deterrent, then they will understand the same thing from the word arsenal, while the word arsenal does not assume said POV position. I didn't want to act unilaterally though, incase this wording has already been consensused. Any objections? Jdcooper (talk) 12:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you mean, but 'deterrent' is certainly what it is normally called here in the UK. I've rarely if ever heard it referred to as the UK's 'arsenal' (and I work in defence). One could argue that changing from the common name to a theoretically more neutral term, is POV in itself, and it would certainly constitute OR unless the term is commonly used elsewhere. There's also a slight technical difference - an arsenal is a store of weapons, a deterrent is a defence capability. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 08:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
4u1e is right. The loose definition of arsenal would be fine, but I think the strict definition is not applicable - arsenal in reference to nuclear weapons would suggest the stored warheads, not the active ones attached to missiles.
Is "deterrent" POV? UK government policy (the last time I read it in detail) is to have nuclear weapons both to deter other nuclear weapon states from attacking the UK and to provide a deterrent against countries using chemical weapons against British forces and/or interests (the UK not having chemical weapons of its own). Mark83 (talk) 13:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think "deterrent" is a non-neutral political term that has nevertheless become common parlance, which is exactly what the pro-nuclear lobby would have wished. Unfortunately, this usage is bolstered by a logically unsound argument. This is that nuclear weapons (any, but expecially the West's) ARE a deterrent simply BECAUSE there has not been another nuclear war. But whilst even one nuclear strike might disprove the thesis, no amount of non-strike can prove it - one would have to wait for an infinitely long time and even then there might be an infinite number of OTHER reasons why a strike does not take place. So "arsenal", although a little archaic, might be preferable. But why not simply ".. a major element of the UK's nuclear capability."? Wittlessgenstein (talk) 20:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. "Deterrent" is ""Newspeak" for "weapon", so the phrase might read ".. a key element of the UK's nuclear weapons capability."? A spade is a spade and a weapon is a weapon, which may or may not deter or may be thought to deter, if one favours massive expenditure on the Military/Industrial complex. Vernon White . . . Talk 22:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quite right, Vernon White. A vast stock pile of nuclear arms is one way to avoid a nuclear war by means of deterence. But that doesn't really seem to be the safest way to go about it. Another, possibly cheaper, way is to agree that no one has any nuclear weapons at all. But I'm sure these arguments are all well run elsewhere. Were just discussing one word here. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So is there a consensus on "... a key element of the UK's nuclear weapons capability."? as a replacement for "Deterrent"? Vernon White . . . Talk 20:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. More encyclopedic than anything else that's been suggested (and "deterrent"). Mark83 (talk) 20:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether a date is autoformatted or not). MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Disadvantages of date-autoformatting


  • (1) In-house only
  • (a) It works only for the WP "elite".
  • (b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
  • (c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.
  • (2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences
  • (a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.
  • (3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates
  • (a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
  • (b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
  • (c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.
  • (4) Typos and misunderstood coding
  • (a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
  • (b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
  • (c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.
  • (5) Edit-mode clutter
  • (a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.
  • (6) Limited application
  • (a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
  • (b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. Does anyone object if I remove it from the main text in a few days’ time on a trial basis? The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 14:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With linking full dates optional now, I fail to see why it's worth the trouble to remove the links in articles. -Fnlayson (talk) 15:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the greater prominence this proposal would give to high value links. Are the links really useful anyway? I have never (on this artcile or other) found myself reading about event X happening on date Y and then thinking 'what else happened on that day?'
Fnlayson—it's a simple matter of pressing a tab using a script. Will do now. Tony (talk) 13:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SFO Prosecution

User:Abercromby recently added a section about the recent SFO prosecution announcement.User:Fnlayson reverted twice claiming WP:CRYSTAL. We discussed this over on User talk:Fnlayson#BAE Systems. I think the news of the SFO announcement is a legit past event which should be included in the article. --Alastair Rae (talk) 15:57, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

to be sure, I only put the thing in once. I asked User:Fnlayson to account for his reversions, and I'm hoping he does so. This is newsworthy, and we can't (in the longer term) hold out. Baroness Scotland is under pressure from many directions (there is a political timing aspect to this) and the current status of BAE Systems needs to be placed in the public record (wikipedia). I'll check in the morning to see if things are straight. We have two votes for, and one against right now. Lets see how it plays out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.172.36 (talk) 18:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree this is newsworthy, but Wikipedia is not a news service. Wikinews does that. Wait until something is actually done, then add it here. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Fnlayson. This will be a very important piece of the article, however there is no point adding something tonight based on speculative media reporting - BBC says SFO offered BAE a fine of millions to avoid prosecution, ITN says fine over £1 billion. The story will be very fluid for a few days at least. Let's hold back until either BAE accepts a plea bargain (or similar) or it is announced that it's heading to court. Mark83 (talk) 20:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


No point in holding off - we can always change it later. As long as what we write is true _tonight_, then no-one has the right to roll it back. We have to try to model reality as it appears to us at this point. 87.114.172.36 (talk) 21:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing speculative about my entry. Fnlayson has brought up an aspect of necessity versus sufficiency. In this case, a huge, multinational company has suffered a significant slide in its share price as a result of some news. The news itself is notable and verifiable, notwithstanding other concerns. Please rebut this properly, or I'll have to reinstate the change. Cheers, 87.114.172.36 (talk) 21:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Right, I'm going to bed soon. I've put the entry back, and I hope my friends here have no objection to that. As matters change , we are all able to react and put things in place. That is the purpose of this site. As things stand, BAe is "under inspection". Potential share buyers have the right to know these public facts, and wikipedia is bound to reflect the realities. Let me know if there is any dispute, else have a nice night! 87.114.172.36 (talk) 21:43, 1 October 2009 (UTC).[reply]
In retrospect, perhaps I'm a bit hasty here. Clare Short has said that the company has been ripping off developing nations. I suspect there'll be plenty more to add here in a day or two. No use flip-flopping. Let's freeze this site until things transpire, then fill out the blanks. It makes sense. Cheers, 87.114.172.36 (talk) 21:47, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ "Defense News Top 100". www.DefenseNews.com. Retrieved 2007-07-31.
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