Talk:Italian irredentism in Nice

Who invented this

"Nizzardo Italians are the Italian speaking populations of the County of Nice (Nizza)." What??? Who invented this? Nizzardi are mostly of Italian background anyways... period. Most now speak French, but they are still Nizzardi (in Italian language, anyway). This is like saying "Corsican Italians" where "Corsicans" suffices... somewhat redundant. What is the purpose of this drivel? Mariokempes (talk) 00:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

On the book of Gray, Ezio Le terre nostre ritornano... Malta, Corsica, Nizza. De Agostini Editoriale can be read that "...Since 1861, after a sustained process of Frenchification, only in the coast around Mentone and in the mountains around Tenda there are still some Nizzardo Italians..."

That means that actually nearly 98% of the people living in the County of Nice do not speak the Italian language or the Ligurian dialect and so they are NOT "Nizzardo Italians", but French people. B.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.231.200.245 (talk) 03:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello Brunodam (I assume it is you? Glad to see you are back editing). The book you quote is, unfortunately, a biased piece of irredentist propaganda... le terre nostre ritornono!!!? The population of the the county of Nice IS primarily of Italian descent. The fact they no longer speak Italian or Ligure- but are french-speaking, French citizens- does NOT make them non-Italian. There is no need to distinguish those who may still speak Italian from those who do not. To say anything otherwise makes this article a vehicle for 19th C style nationalism which, quite frankly, has no room in modern european society. You know very well the ridiculous nationalist discussions that are happening at Talk:Dalmatian Italians... please don't start that again. Mariokempes (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Even if I am not B.D., I want to pinpoint that your tag is wrong, dear Mario. The irredentist book about "le nostre terre ritornano" is a scholar book (even if written in fascist times) and so it is not "original research".

Furthermore, the term Nizzardo Italians appears on pag 16 and 34 of the book of Holt, Edgar "The Making of Italy 1815–1870". The term is translated in English from the "Memorie" of Giuseppe Garibaldi, who created the italian term "Nizzardi Italiani" when writed about the 11000 persons from his Nizza forced to take refuge in Italy after France annexed in 1861 his native region. Garibaldi wanted to differentiate the "real" Nizzardi Italiani from the others who voted in 1861 for France, mainly in the interior mountanous areas of the County of Nice where most spoke the Occitan dialect. Indeed, as I have written "Immediately after 1861, the French government closed all the newspapers in Italian and more than 11,000 Nizzardo Italians moved to the Kingdom of Italy. The dimension of the "exodus" can be deducted by the fact that in the Savoy census of 1858, Nizza had only 44,000 inhabitants".....but nearly 20000 of those 44000 were Occitan speaking people (immigrated from the mountains to the city area for work) and used to call themselves French Provenzals. Regards.--Brunodam (talk) 02:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I never stated "le nostre terre ritornano" is "original research". I do emphatically state that it is irredentist fascist propaganda [For those that don't understand Italian, "le nostre terre ritornano" translates as "our lands return to us"]. The biggest issue that I have with this article is that it is removed from the historical context- there is not contemporary notion of a nizzardo italiano and to suggest so IS original research. Mariokempes (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting article; However, I agree this article seems somewhat fabricated and is clearly designed to emphasize historical content. It is not about an Italian people per se. As such, I think the people of the region of Nice that supported Italian unification cannot really be called "Nizzard Italians", and the fact that many in the area are of possible Italian (Ligurian?) descent- or at least Italian-like Provencal- makes this even more questionable. Without getting into linguistics, let me point out the Nizzard dialect may have been Italian and not Occitan, but keep in mind Occitan is very similar to the Piedmontese dialects. In essence, pointing to language here becomes irrelevant (although shameful that the dialect is essentially lost to French). Dionix (talk) 04:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the fact that the information presented in this article is 100% misinterpreted or squarely invented, I want to emphasize the fact that there was NO such exodus of Italians after the reunion with France. It is not recorded anywhere but in some irredentist rag. Also, take note of a few basic facts: Italian at the time (1860's) was not a spoken language anywhere, except in its region of origine which is from Florence to Sienna. No one spoke it in the entire kingdom of Piemont-Sardaigne, where it was a written standard and no more. However, everybody did learn it if they were to learn to read and write, though many Nissart did study in France as well. Secondly, the Nissart from the city and the countryside were the same people and were never ethnic Italians/Ligurians at any point in history. Od course, there came Ligurian migrants among them (such as the Garibaldi's), who immediately adopted the local occitanic language. Nissa was indeed part of Provence until 1388 where it passed under the rule of Savoy, which was not itself to enter the Italian sphere of influence until the acquisition of Piemonte in the 1500's. The initial population od Nissa was and remained occitanic. In fact, the first book ever printed in Occitanic was written and printed in Nice : "Compendion de l’Abaco", by Francés Pellos, in 1492. Oh, one correction: there was an "exodus" after 1860 - a part of the aristocracy, which remained strongly attached to the Savoys. That would be a few dozens of people, not 11,000. Even a few very basic readings in history could tell you these things, what have you been reading ?? Philippe de Nice —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.84.109.31 (talk) 10:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Italian irredentism POV

This article is full of Italian irredentism POV, so I have put a POV alert. Nice region was always Occitan-speaking (before recent francization) and all sspecialists in Romance linguistics consider that Niçard is an Occitan dialect. There is the same kind of POV in Niçard article.--Nil Blau (talk) 00:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Please let me intervene to support Nil Blau's claim. This article is some kind of a very strange mixture, with nationalistic and pseudolinguistic statements. As far as I can tell Niça's area has never spoken Ligurian except in some small enclaves (whose language is commonly known as figon/figoun) linked apparently to some migrations. I think we can refer to some old texts and documents if it should need to be proved that the native language of most of the County has always been Occitan and that it actually suffered some influence from Italian recently because of its geopolitical situation. Does the fact that your region was under Italian rule make you Italian, I really doubt it! Have a great summer! Capsot (talk) 21:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the two users above, this article is heavily biased towards an Italian-irredentist viewpoint. It presents history in a biased perspective, and its claims about linguistics are alien to the generally accepted modern linguistic theories. JdeJ (talk) 18:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed regarding the bias and, most of all, the lack of a basis for this article. While it is interesting, it contorts history and presents a background as if to substantiate a claim which really doesn't exixt. What the heck is a "Nizzardo Italian"?? I'm not too quick to discard the linguistic elements, however, but this is not the place to discuss that aspect (maybe the Niçard article is a better place?). I won't pretend to be a linguist, but it seems the regional dialect is very similar to Ligurian and Gallo-Italian languages, even if it is classified as Occitan by linguists. Some writings do refer to it as an "Italian" dialect, even if scholarly works in linguistic studies do not. Another simplistic reason I won't completely ignore the linguistic aspect is the abundance of Italian place and people names (Garibaldi himself). As part of the Kingdom of Savoy for many years, the official language for this region may have been Italian and that must have left some legacy as well... Just some thoughts and I welcome some enlightenment by those who know more about this. Dionix (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree too. The article is one of a series created by (the now sadly departed) Brunodam and his multiple socks to promote his own irredentist POV. They all display the same bias, historical contortions and attempts to substantiate nationalist claims to some kind of Greater Italy. If you are interested, the remainder of the series is Corfiot Italians, Corsican Italians, Dalmatian Italians, Libyan Italians, Maltese Italians and Tunisian Italians. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 07:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Historical evidences/sources of the existence of the Nizzardo Italians

There are many historical evidences/sources about the existence of the Nizzardo Italians.

The New York Times of March 29,1881 -for example- is a reliable source. It is not italian or french (and nobody can blame it to be irredentist). Please read [1]. It clearly states that "The Nizzards were quite as much Italians as the Genoese and their dialect was, if anything, nearer the Tuscan than is the harsh dialect of Genoa".

Another - quite simple - is that 27,003 people voted in 1861 to join France, but 345 to join Italy: so, the Nizzardo Italians existed, like the same Giuseppe Garibaldi.

Indeed it is historically proven that 11.000 of Garibaldi followers in his "Nizza" went to Italy in the 1860s as refugees. On pag 16 and 34 of the book of Edgar Holt, "The Making of Italy 1815–1870", there it is written (translated in English from the "Memorie" of Giuseppe Garibaldi) that 11.000 Italian speaking persons - from the Nizzardo of the Savoy dominions - were forced to take refuge in Italy after revolts against the France annexation of the region in 1861 --Againstantism (talk) 03:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion Bruno.-- AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

---

Very funny. You consider an obscure article in an American newspaper by a unidentified journalist as a reliable source?? And two passing mentions in an English book ? Would you not prefer to consult actual historical knowledge ? There are plenty of books available on the various subjects that you massacre in this article. For instance, the Republic of Genova did not exist before the year 1000. Also, the region of Nice was part of the County of Provence until it gave itself to Savoy in the 13th century, not part of the Genovese State.

Most absolute nonsense

How do we get a page to be suppressed from Wikipedia? It's important for the encyclopedia's credibility to not allow excessive nonsense to be published, and especially not the twaddle of the Italian extreme right. Indeed, this article is a fascist tract characteristic of the ideas of an dark era in recent Italian history. Everything in this article is most obviously written by someone with extremeley weak background in history and liguistics. The whole thing is so absolutely absurd that even bothering to write this discussion appears to be a waste of time. The first thing I can suggest is to actually visit the former county of Nice and gather some basic facts about your subject. For your information, ligurian is spoken in a dialectal form in Monaco, which was initially a Genoese colony. Anywhere else in the former coutny, the occitanic language has been spoken ever since occitanic existed - and still is today, albeit by much fewer people as assimilation by the French made staggering progress after WWII. Until about 1940, it was still the universally spoken language except in the few areas settled by French and foreigners in Nice (the West side of the river Paillon). You ought to stop reading misinformed sources, and consult the vast resources about Nice, its history and its language which are readily available. Of course, you probably have to understand French to access many of them. Signed : A Nissard-speaking Niçois. P.S. : Garibaldi's family was not originally from Nice, but from Genova. He was the son of an Italian immigrant in Nice.