Talk:19 Kids and Counting

New article

This is an entirely different article from the one that was deleted in 2006. While there may have been questions back then of the family's notability, I don't believe there should be any problem establishing such nowadays--Google News turns up 30+ news articles just about the announcement of their 18th child. Propaniac (talk) 17:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Concur. They are the subject of numerous TLC specials and now have their own TV show, are regularly featured on national news programs, and are generally noteworthy. Quidam65 (talk) 19:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Family Life

"Jim Bob Duggar and his wife report that their children are blessings from God, since his wife miscarried while on birth control and was able to conceive many more times once she stopped taking birth control." >No ----. You are usually able to have children once you come off of the Pill. Why does this even belong?

That tidbit has since been moved to Jim Bob's article, but I will answer your question nonetheless.

Why does it belong here? Because this family is notorious for having so many children. They say they had so many because the wife could not have children while she was taking the pills. Once she got off of it and a horrible miscarriage, she was able to start their legacy.★Dasani★ 23:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

That's not what the user was commenting about. The user was commenting on the "Well...duh!" tone of the statement. If she comes off of birth control, of course she is going to conceive, unless they completely abstain (which, after 18 kids, it's clear they don't). I have since removed the statement and added an additional one that better explains it. --13² 20:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

No Controversy Section?

I've heard and read lots of things that say having so many kids just isn't fair to the already existing kids. Shouldn't this at least be mentioned? Mrmcdonnell (talk) 15:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

If you have some materials which meet Wikipedia's guidelines for reliable sources and verifiability and specifically discuss the Duggar family, not just large families in general, then it would be appropriate to add them to the article. Anything added to this article should also meet the policy on biographies of living people. I'd be happy to help you with a controversy section if you have some online sources that meet these criteria. Stardust8212 00:45, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Stardust here. There are general concerns about overpopulation and whether large families such as the Duggars contribute to the problem (if it truly exists), but these are common to large families as well; one could argue that the Gosselins' (Jon & Kate plus Eight) decision not to undergo selective reduction would fit this criteria. Also their support of Bill Gothard may be controversial but this is due to Gothard's views on subjects, which do not appear to have adversely affected the growing clan. If someone has materials about the Duggars themselves which may be controversial, and can be properly verified to reliable sources, then it could be added. Quidam65 (talk) 19:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

There either needs to be a controversy section on here, or on the parents' article. (Can't we just merge the two articles?) The article is very lob-sided without it, and I don't know where you come from (or care) but yes, there are a lot of people against couples who have litters of children. --24.21.149.124 (talk) 10:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with Stardust's opinion. The article needs to be fulling reviewed in my opinion. --ThyCantabrigde (talk) 10:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

All of the references in the controversy section were individual blogs and message boards. These are not reliable sources that support encyclopedic content. I removed the entire controversy section. If someone can find more reliable sources, go ahead an re-do the section. --User101010 (talk) 12:25, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

And now that controversy section is back. I don't want to start an edit war here, but that section really needs to be gone. I am again deleting it per the guidelines of self published sources: WP:SPS#Self-published_sources --User101010 (talk) 03:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree there should be no controversy section. There is already a link to an article about the Quiverfull movement which contains a criticisms section about having many children. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.163.130.169 (talk) 02:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

A controversy section would be fine, but keep in mind that it has to follow three "rules" (so to say). 1)It needs to be cited with reliable sources. 2)It cannot be the focus of the article. This article is about the family, not the criticism of the family. 3)It has to be about the Duggars, and only the Duggars. The source has to specifically be pointing out the Duggars. It cannot, say, be a criticism against the quiverfull movement (that belongs on the quiverfull article). If you keep those three "rules" in mind, then yes, it can have a criticism section. --13² 20:23, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I came on here specifically to ask the same thing -- why the hell is there no controversy section? Aren't the Duggars in some kind of legal trouble? I seem to remember reading about it a year or two ago. Somebody add it, please. The article is WAY too kind to these people. I suspect a lot of supporters have been working on it.. --24.21.148.212 (talk) 22:11, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no controversy section because this article contains biographical information and any and all comments that would generally be considered negative must be backed up with extremely reliable sources (please click that link to see what is considered reliable). Blogs, forums, and hearsay are not at all reliable and any information garnered from them cannot be included. If controversy, covered extensively by verifiable, reliable sources, can be found, it can be included. Until then, it will be removed. Thank you. --13² 22:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I wonder why there is no controversy section talking about the families very strict gender roles. They are able to support those kids so I don't care what they do, but what about the gender roles. Women aren't allowed to wear pants and one episode two guys tried to cut down a tree and the girl told them how and they ignored her for several hours only to realize she was right. Just curious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.149.158 (talk) 01:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

This would be considered synthesis, which is not allowed in articles, especially articles about living people. Unless you can find and cite a reliable source that directly addresses this criticism/controversy, it can't be included as it would be considered original research. --13² 02:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't it just be the heading, "Controversy", then underneath just link to the Quiverfull movement? You're not bashing them specifically, just pointing out that their lifestyle is considered controversial. Also, this article is wayyyyy too nice to them. It sounds less like a neutral voice and more of a coddling, "Oh, those sweet li'l Duggars" kind of voice. Just saying. Maybe somebody should edit the whole thing while they're at it. (67.81.107.98 (talk) 16:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC))

Absolutely not. That would be the very definition of synthesis. You're taking one thing that may be controversial and trying to apply it to the family, despite there not being any reliable sources that criticize the quiverfull movement as it pertains to the Duggars. Besides, there's a lot of debate about whether the Duggars actually practice it anyway. --13² 17:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, I really don't see how the article coddles the Duggars. A lack of criticism does not mean the article is coddling them. Period. Criticism could be added at any time so long as it is accompanied by reliable sources. The problem is there isn't a lot of criticism outside of a very small population that rants on their blogs and on forums, which isn't reliable. Unless reliable sources that can verify the criticism can be found, it just can't be included. Sorry. --13² 17:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean "debate about whether they actually practice it anyway"? They have EIGHTEEN children who they constantly squawk that they are gifts from God! If that's not the very DEFINITION of Quiverfull, then I don't know what is. (67.81.107.98 (talk) 17:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC))

Err, the quiverfull movement doesn't have anything to do with children being gifts from god. The quiverfull movement is about "being fruitful and multiplying" which means having as many kids as possible just to have as many kids as possible, not choosing to have many kids because you want a lot of kids. It's a fine, but distinct line. In fact, if I recall correctly, Michelle has been quoted saying they don't follow the movement. That said, this page is for discussion of the article, not the discussion of the family. Please limit your comments to improving the article, not ranting about the family. Thanks. --13² 17:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry there, Thirteen squared. Just trying to level the playing field. After all, you seem awfully intent on preserving the family- er, the family's ARTICLE, without questioning the questionable. (67.81.107.98 (talk) 17:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC))

Please make an attempt to start assuming good faith. I have no connection to the family and have only seen half of one episode. To assume that I'm trying to preserve the family is entirely incorrect. The problem you seem to be overlooking is that, since this article is talking about living people, it must also comply with WP:BLP, which comes with a lot more intense requirements for sourcing, especially for controversial information. "Well, there should be a criticism section!" is just not going to cut it. --13² 17:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, please see guilt by association. The suggestion you brought up would be a direct violation of this. In other words, you're suggesting that since there is criticism for the quiverfull movement and the Duggars (may or may not) practice quiverfull, then there is criticism for the Duggars. This is, quite clearly, a fallacy and would not hold up, even more so since they're living people. Sorry. --13² 17:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

TL;DR. Make a criticism section.(67.81.107.98 (talk) 17:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC))

If all you want to do is rant about the Duggars, please go get a blog on Livejournal and do it there. This is not the place for that. --13² 18:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

All right, what about a CRITICISM section? Perhaps there isn't a full-blown controversy, but quite obviously there is serious criticism of their "lifestyle". Just look up "Duggars" in Google and you'll find hundreds of articles of people who disapprove of these parents as they list the countless reasons why, not just rant. (67.81.107.98 (talk) 03:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC))

All controversy still needs to be covered under WP:RS. Unfortunately, the vast majority of sources just don't meet policy. --13² 04:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not a fan of them, nor the way they raise their kids. However, the sources do not meet policy. A blog doesn't cut it. Should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.35.35.35 (talk) 19:50, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I edited this article to have a controversy section since there was none. It has subsequently been removed. I will provide what I consider several major sources criticizing their family.

Slate.com is fairly major media - http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/xxfactor/archive/2008/12/19/big-family-values.aspx Criticism of the Duggars.

Gay activist organization "Good as You" criticizing the family's support of what they call anti-gay people/groups. - http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2008/05/its-still-not-s.html Good as You has been featured on PBS and is not just a blog.

These are both legitimate sources. Also, the Duggar family website itself reference things like Young Earth Creationism. http://www.duggarfamily.com/links1.html If young earth creationism isn't controversial, I don't know what the word means. They also have links to groups like the IBLP, which is controversial enough that it has a support group for ex-members, much like a cult (the group is considered a cult by some).

I request that this section be put back in. I would like to assume good faith, and I hope nobody's trying to protect the family. There is CLEARLY enough evidence that the Duggars are controversial to mainstream society by any reasonable definition of the word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.131.193.150 (talk) 03:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The problem with your second to last paragraph is that it is all synthesis and guilt by association and cannot be included. The Slate piece is an editorial blog entry and isn't considered reliable and I cannot find the credentials for the "Good As You" link which makes me lean more toward the unreliable side. --13² 03:57, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, 99% of what you added landed under WP:SYN, WP:OR, and quite a bit of it violated WP:NPOV, nor did the citations actually source what you were citing. I'm not at all surprised it was removed. --13² 04:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Slurs

There are many insinuated slurs about the family and their children via the links. IE 'video production' links to 'pornography' and 'mom' links to 'prostitute' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.8.192.14 (talk) 22:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted the page back to a previous edit that wipes out the vandalism of this page. --devnet (talk) 04:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok somebody added Aspie to Jill Michelle notes, I'm not sure if it was vandalism but it was added today, so I'm removing it since it sounds like a slur. Unless Aspie is a proper term for Aspergars Syndrome I don't see why it should be there. Should of mentioned that this user Unicornmethlab added the Aspie comment.Anto103 (talk) 01:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Even if that's what it is, it's still not a good term to use and, even if the child has it, it would still need to be cited with a reliable source. Good move in removing it. Thanks. --13² 05:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge Duggar family into 17 Kids and Counting. -- 13² 20:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

---

I think this article should be merged into the Duggar Family article because they say essentially the same things. --*Kat* (talk) 04:34, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree

• You know, I completely forgot about this show having a page, so I mean why not. But instead of merging with Duggar Family, why not merge it here with the 17 kids page. Makes alot more sense, I think.--EmperorofBlackPeopleEverywhere (talk) 05:11, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

• Redirecting Duggar Family to this page makes more sense to me, too. If they are the subject of future shows or specials, then Duggar Family would then be changed to redirect to the newest show or special.--User101010 (talk) 01:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

• Merge into 17 Kids and Counting --Daysleeper47 (talk) 18:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with a redirect from the family to the show (like Jon & Kate Plus 8). I went through and edited both and, I swear, I read through the exact same article twice. Since there hasn't been any disagreement and it's been just over a month, I think the redirect should be made.. --13² 20:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Disagree

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Birthdates and age listed in table and twins

Can we please discuss this now instead of mass reverting with vague, confusing, or no edit summaries?

I merged this information to this article a few days ago. I teetered between whether to have static dates or dynamic dates and decided to go with the latter for three reasons.

1) The MOS for dates of birth says to use the birth and age tag in infoboxes for people who's date of birth is known. This table is essentially a smushing together of the individual infoboxes. Considering it would be redundant to have 18 separate infoboxes with essentially the same information, keeping them together in a table makes formatting easier and the page look less cluttered.

2) The page for this specific tag states this:

"These templates...return a person’s date of birth and optionally his/her age...Using this template rather than simply inserting the date into articles allows for the inclusion of hidden metadata about the date. This metadata can be used by web browsers and other software tools to extract the details, and display them using some other website or mapping tool, index or search them."

This clearly states that dynamic tags are highly preferred over static dates. Also, the ages are optional. That means that it can be included or not included. Considering the subject matter, I think the ages are appropriate, along with the dates. The children are born incredibly close to each other. Showing the ages, along with the dates, emphasizes that. However, with just the dates, it can be incredibly confusing, overwhelming, and overstimulating simply because there are so many of them. I feel the ages with the dates makes the table appear clearer, more organized, and less cluttered and it doesn't require the regular user to have to have to figure out every single age or think about how far apart each individual child is, which can be really daunting with 18 of them.

3) This table was on Duggar family for months...literally (since August, I believe)...without receiving as many edits like this to it as it has in the past two days. Further, that article was edited by many, many administrators and established Wikipedians and no one removed or changed the tags. I feel this speaks volumes about how appropriate/inappropriate it is.

Since I'm also not sure it's clear, these dynamic birth and age tags automatically update the age every time a birthday rolls around. It does not have to constantly be manually updated. If this was the cause for concern, I hope that clears it up.

Now on to the issue of twins. I really don't see how denoting that they are twins in the notes section is a problem. There is nothing wrong with denoting it in the section specifically for notes...as that is the whole purpose behind the notes section, to make note of things that were different with that birth, clarification, and other information regarding that specific child. To continue removing the denotation seems ridiculous. I am just completely flabbergasted that this is even an issue and I really can't fathom any good reason for continually removing them. If you've got one, I'm all for seeing it. --13² 21:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Concur with 13² on all counts: 1) the table is an appropriate way to identify the children, equivalent to the use of infoboxes; 2) dynamic auto-calculating age tags are appropriate, given the known dates of birth; 3) the table has been an accepted part of the article. I see no coherent reasons provided for the recent deletions of material, certainly no known policy reasons. Besides, the article is called 17 Kids and Counting! Dl2000 (talk) 03:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I also agree with 13² on all three points. I think readers would be disappointed if they read the article and still didn't know how old the kids were. What good reason could there possibly be for removing the table or the dynamically updated ages? --Andrew Kelly (talk) 03:49, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Why would readers be "disappointed" if there's no age mentioned? You mean to say no one can add and that stating the obvious is needed? Josh is born in 1988 and we're in the year 2009. The two, currently, youngest Dugger kids are still babies so their birthdays would be the easiest to add. I would think people can add the ages, all by themselves. Since when are ages included with people on any reality show? Why this reality show and not any other Also why these people and not celebrities? What's so special about these kids, other then there are 18 of them? Nothing that I can see.

It's not necessary and people will not be "disappointed". My first thought when seeing the ages listed is, why? Doesn't look right to me to have ages listed, it made me think that you're treating the readers like they're too dumb to calculate an age of a Dugger kid.

Also why put a note about twins when their birthdays are listed which would tell everyone there are two sets of twins in the family. Not to mention it's already mentioned above, in the summary about the show. I'd rather just have birthdays and that's it. No ages, no notes about twins, unnecessary stuff. 65.92.171.107 (talk) 20:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

"It doesn't happen elsewhere" is not a sufficient reason for removal. Maybe the other articles SHOULD list ages. The issue is THIS article, not those. Discussion should be related to this article and not those. I'm also positive this isn't the only article that mentions ages of characters or contestants in television related articles (for instance, all of the individual seasons of Survivor list their ages), so that point is moot.

You seem to be incredibly focused on how "disappointed" readers might be and insist that everyone should be able to calculate the ages of the children. How you, personally, feel is irrelevant to what should or should not be included. The fact remains that this is a legitimate tag on Wikipedia with a very specific purpose (that is, to convey the age of the subject). It has been around for an extremely long time and will continue to be around. You may not like it, but, honestly, that doesn't matter. If you don't like the tag and don't think it should be used, take that up on the talk page for that tag. Whether you think the tag should exist or not is not our problem. We're using it as the tag suggests. Also, the infant tag exists for the sole purpose of calculating an infant age. We are also using it as the tag suggests.

You have not brought up a single reason other than you don't like it and that ages aren't listed elsewhere. Neither of these points is at all acceptable for removal, under any circumstance. You need to argue your point using guidelines and policies, not feelings and opinions. Period.

As for the twin issue, the problem I have with you constantly removing them is that you remove them. You don't change it to something more acceptable. It should be noted in the table that they are twins and birth dates among a massive list of birth dates is just not sufficient. There are better ways to show they are twins that saying they are twins to each other, but instead of trying to figure out how to do that, you do a mass removal with the reason that it is "unnecessary stuff" when, in reality, it IS necessary stuff and you just happen to not like it the way it is.

So, try again. This time, please use policies and guidelines, not feelings and opinions. Also, do not change the table again until you gain consensus through discussion. A single message is not discussion and it certainly isn't gaining consensus. You have been reverted over and over again by myself and others. That means that your change is controversial, which means that you need to gain consensus before you change it again. Thank you. --13² 20:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I move them because they're are NOT needed. You're stating the obvious as if no one can figure out how old the Duggar kids are or who's a twin to who. Also I've said before the twins are mentioned above in the summary about the show, so basically you're repeating yourself.

The question to ask is why were the ages and twin notes added in the first place? What makes this reality TV show family so special? I can look at Josh's birthday and realize his age without seeing on the tablet. Same with everyone else. Either you guys think everyone's too stupid or too lazy, which is it? 76.69.197.201 (talk) 18:57, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

If you truly believe that everyone is being too stupid or lazy to calculate ages and we shouldn't ever list them, then please take that up on the talk page for that specific tag (linked above) and get it changed there. Until then, we are using the tag in the way it is supposed to be used. It has nothing to do with thinking people are stupid or lazy. People shouldn't have to be forced to calculate (which is a two step process, both for figuring out the years and then if the current date is before or after the birth date) 18 ages when there is a perfectly acceptable tag to do it for them, which is widely used throughout Wikipedia just because you, personally, think they should calculate it based on nothing other than you think they should. Again, if you don't like the tag, that is another matter entirely and you need to get it changed at the source, that is, the talk page there, not here where we are using it correctly.

Whether or not it's stating the obvious as to who is twins to whom is your personal opinion, which has no place here. I think there are better ways to say it (for instance, doubling up that line and listing them both in the same row), but to remove the notation entirely is a bit ridiculous.

And, once again, "It doesn't happen elsewhere." is not a good reason for removal...ever. And, once again, this isn't the only reality/television show to list ages and it surely won't be the last, but that doesn't matter. We're discussing listing the ages on this article and this article only, not all of those other articles so please leave them out of the discussion. Thank you. --13² 19:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I will also mention that in the entire time that this table has been on this page or Duggar family, the age tags and twin denotations were not removed by a single person. It has been around for months and, not only are you the first person to change it, you're the only person fighting it. You really need to look at the bigger picture here. You've been reverted over and over again by myself and others, the page has been protected several times because of the disruption, and you keep trying to justify it using the same, old, tired arguments and, yet, your changes continue to be reverted. You either need to get your point across better (preferably using policies and guidelines and in a less inflammatory way than calling people "stupid" and "lazy") or back off. The way you're going about it now is just not going to gain consensus and it certainly isn't going to get it changed to your preferred version. --13² 19:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

There is still no valid policy reason or reasonable case presented to degrade the table by removing accurately autocalculated age information here. The existing table content provides context and verifiability, especially given the concept of this TV program. It's definitely not WP:ABF to provide facts in a helpful manner to many Wikipedia readers. Again, User:13² has made the best case here. Dl2000 (talk) 05:03, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I can give you a "valid reason", you want to treat readers like they're ignorant, plain and simple. Apparently they can't add. 65.92.164.58 (talk) 20:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Policies and guidelines are "valid reasons." This opinion of yours is not only inflammatory, but it also contradicts the very purpose behind the tag, which means that it violates policies and guidelines set down within Wikipedia. Thus, your reasons are not valid. The tag was created for the very purpose we are using it for (ie: to convey the age of the subject). If you don't like the purpose behind the tag, get it changed through discussion and consensus on the talk page for the tag, not here. Until then, we are using it correctly, according to policies and guidelines, and will continue to do so unless shown where and how we are violating current policies and guidelines. Period. --13² 21:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

So basically me having an opinion means I have apparently to be "tagged" and called "inflamatory". Last I checked, I was entitled to my opinion, without using big or fancy words! Why do I even bother, when you guys have already made up your minds that readers are stupid and illiterate! I look at the ages and twin notes and think; you guys feel everyone who reads the information are idiots, apparently.01:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.68.221.250 (talk)

Please read the pages for assuming good faith and remaining civil. I'm not going to continue tolerating you throwing around insults and baseless, inflammatory accusations. I've left an official warning on your talk page. Hopefully you read it and learn from it. The way you are going about this is not going to get changes made in your favor and it's only going to get other editors to lose respect for you. Considering you have made very good contributions in the past and seem to genuinely want to help, not hinder, I just can't understand why you are still going down this path. --13² 01:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I have used rowspan="2" to merge the Date of Birth/Age fields for each pair of twins, and added a small (Twins) indicator to the DOB/Age. In doing so, some redundant information was consolidated into a more compact form. In my opinion, this is far less obtrusive than the "Twin to ___" notes, which will free these fields up to show when Jana Marie and John-David get married, etc. I also un-bolded, un-capitalized, and italicized the unborn baby placeholders to distinguish them from the actual names and birth dates. I believe that these changes represent a tasteful compromise between the two competing factions (either that or y'all will each hate me equally for being such a dunderhead).The Monster (talk) 04:48, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

LOL, this was a pretty old discussion that hasn't really been an issue recently. I really like the changes you made though. It makes it far less cluttered and repetitive, but still keeps the notations. Thanks! :) --13² 19:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I know it's old, but I just happened on the page and saw the clutter. I think this version captures each single fact such as "Jana Marie and John-David are twins", rather than pretending that "Jana Marie is John-David's twin" and "John-David is Jana Marie's twin" are somehow two separate facts. I'm also pretty good with the HTML and CSS under the hood; I'm one of those hard-core geeks that likes tweaking esoteric templates. (See template:NFLBracket/doc for the most complicated one I've worked on so far.) I'm taking a look at the two different Date of Birth/Age templates this page uses, with an eye toward making a single template that does both jobs (automatically shows ages under 2 years as "x months" and under some threshold like 3-6 months includes months and days–I haven't figured out the details yet. The Monster (talk) 05:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Moving this and episode list to new article

I've put in speedy delete requests for the two redirects blocking page moves for this article and List of 17 Kids and Counting episodes‎. If they're granted, I'll move the pages immediately. If they aren't, I'll put in a request at WP:RPM and get them moved. TLC is now listing the show as "18 Kids and Counting" on their main site and they have aired one episode with this title. I think we can now say, officially, that the new title is "18 Kids and Counting" without any hesitation.

For those who may be inclined to preemptively move the pages through copy/pasting, please realize that this is strictly condemned because we want to move the page's history, along with the text. When you copy/paste, you move the text, but not the history. Please wait until the redirects have been deleted and move the entire pages with their talk pages using the "move" tag at the top. If it won't allow you to move it, is because those pages haven't been deleted yet and you need to be patient and wait. Thank you. --13² 19:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I decided to add a request at WP:RPM anyway. Hopefully we can get this moved soon. --13² 20:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The move was made. --13² 22:59, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The date for when the show changed their name is wrong. Listed is February 23 which is a Monday, the show airs on Tuesdays, so the date should read the 24th.65.92.164.58 (talk) 20:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I'll fix any incident of an incorrect date. --13² 21:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Table

13², in their last edit to this article, said that they didn't know if they liked the new version of the table. In an effort to establish consensus, or to at least have a reasonable conversation, I would like to say that I liked the older version better and, to my knowledge, it did not violate any Wikipedia guidelines. Perhaps if enough people feel this way, we could change it back to the old version. --Andrew Kelly (talk) 03:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's been in a string of discussions for a while if you look two conversations up. It kind of got jumbled in with the issue of tags, but, yes, I agree with you completely. THANK YOU!!! --13² 03:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for changing the table back. Since it doesn't violate any Wikipedia guidelines, it seems to me like it ought to be formatted the way the majority of the people like it. And seeing as we're the only two that have discussed that particular change so far and we agree, I'd say we win! :) --Andrew Kelly (talk) 04:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Duggars not against college

The statement that the Duggars are against college, for girls in particular, is rubbish. In this article where the Duggar children were interviewed the children clearly stated jobs where college is essential - midwife, nurse, policeman etc: http://health.discovery.com/tv/duggars/meet-the-duggars.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.170.222.157 (talk) 14:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

That statement, as well as others added by the same anon user, have been removed. It was almost all original research and synthesis, plus it was poorly sourced, so someone removed it. --13² 17:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I was surprised to find quite a bit more unsourced/poorly sourced criticism is still there, or has been re-added. I'm making some major edits to remove unsourced information, especially since WP:BLP applies to this page. --Ginkgo100^talk 17:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

My mistake: I posted this on the wrong talk page. Disregard. --Ginkgo100^talk 17:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Never mind again. I did not realize there is a merge in progress. My comments stand but apply to the Duggar family page, not the TV show page. --Ginkgo100^talk 17:25, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

BLP still applies here because the show is about the family, which means information about the family is, obviously, going to be here and that includes controversy and criticism. It still needs to be as carefully sourced as the family page or biographical pages would be. The only way BLP wouldn't cover this page, is if we remove all information that directly pertains to the family (ie: literally just production, the names of the children/parents, and season/episode information with nothing specifically about the family). --13² 17:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I will also mention that there was already a consensus to have Duggar family merged to here and the merge was made. I really think the fact that nobody bothered to discuss recreating that page shows a rather strong disregard for the way Wikipedia works. I think the recreation should be overturned and re-merged here until a new consensus can be made on whether or separate article is necessary. --13² 17:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

19th Duggar Name

Hey!Can we pick a suitable name for the 19th Duggar?Names are switching all the time and we need to stop it.Narnia2514 (talk) 21:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The only name that can be included is the one that can be cited with a reliable source. --13² 22:53, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Insane

That’s insane. Here the world is overpopulated there are millions of starving children and they go and reproduce like their rabbits. If they can afford to have this many children they can afford to adopt a few children who need a loving home. Someone needs to tell them what is causing this. I'm surprised there's not a controversy section to the article.