Talk:William Durbin/Archive01

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Please add new archivals to Talk:Kiyojute Ryu Kempo/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Wingsandsword 17:20, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I've looked over this entry for Kiyojute Ryu Kempo for the first time, and have reviewed the statements made. I would like to put my opinion in, just for the record.

Let me state, my name is Jeff Boler, I was a student of Dr. Durbin from 1989 - 1999, and left at the rank of Nidan. Anyone who knows my name is aware of the fact that I have been an outspoken (maybe too outspoken) critic of Dr. Durbin for years. I'd like to set the record straight.

My problems with Dr. Durbin WERE NEVER about his ability to teach the martial arts. He is an excellent teacher, and anyone who choses to train under him will learn alot, if they apply themselves.

As for his history, it is true that the majority of his training comes directly from Rod Sacharnoski. However, I believe it's accurate to state the Dr. Durbin's real ability and knowledge comes from his personal training, not his instruction under Juko Kai.

As for the religious aspects of training in Kiyojute Ryu, it's not a "hidden aspect." Dr. Durbin has always let his students know that the spiritual side of the training is the most important aspect of the curriculum. If you have attended one or more classes under Dr. Durbin, you are aware that, number one, he's a Christian, and number two, that's the primary aspect of his training, and his instruction. Students who have a problem with the Christian faith, and the application of martial arts using the Christian mindset, better go elsewhere.

Regardless of the negative comments that you find on the internet concerning Dr. Durbin (alot of them are mine, regrettably. I have grown since those days though.), anyone who is seeking good self defense training should consider instruction by Mr. Durbin. The christian teachings are an added bonus.

J Boler

If the anonymous editor who is occasionally inserting things into this article is going to make accusations and inflammatory remarks about this subject, would you please give details. Just saying vague things about cohersed conversions isn't going to help. This is an encyclopedia article not a gossip page, and everything stated in the article should be able to be verified and backed up. An unnamed person being denied testing by an unnamed instructor to hope that they convert, an unnamed black-belt denied promotion (because they failed one of their tests)? That just screams unverifyiable, and the policy of wikipedia is that everything has be able to be Verifyed. Personal anecdotes of the Ryu are Original Research and not suitable for inclusion in the main body of the article. Can you provide proof of what you claim that can be cited as a source?

As for anecdotes (since this is the talk page), I've been in Kiyojute Ryu since 1998, studied under Soke Durbin as well as two Shihan (John Curtis and Tom Griswold), at three different dojo in that time, and the fact I am a Wiccan has never been an issue, and many students have been of non-Christian faiths with no problem. At my dojo we used to have had a Hindu 3rd degree black belt who the Soke had no problem granting high ranking to. He has asked about details of what I believe and why, but we've had fascinating discussions of our beliefs, and he has respected my beliefs as much as I've respected his. It is made crystal clear (or has been at the dojo I've taken the art at) that spiritual development is an expected part of the development in the art, the art was founded by a Baptist minister, and that for promotion to any Dan grade requires (among many other things) a discussion of the meaning of God to you, and that belief in a higher power of some sort is a requirement for high rank. He has always made it clear that he only requires acknowledgement of a higher power, and that many great historic masters, while not neccesarily Christian, were defnitely spiritual. His only restriction were that atheists and others who denied any concept of something greater could not hold black-belt ranks, and that has always been told to every new person I've seen enter the Ryu for years.

If you have a problem with the Ryu, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but let's write an encyclopedia article. --Wingsandsword 02:52, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and to show good faith and that I'm trying to not be POV here, I put in a paragraph addressing concerns about any religious requirements that the Ryu may have. --Wingsandsword 03:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I have refrained from speaking of specifics because I have not wanted to mention specific people. However, John Curtis knows of the certified instructor who told me, over phone, that the reason I was not fully informed of the requirements regarding spiritual beliefs is that that instructor hoped that I would have a change of belief by the time it became important. Ask him. This phone conversation took place in 1999.

I had a mondo with the head of the system at Dave O'Toole's school in which the head of the system became irate when I replied "it depends on what you mean by 'God'" when he asked if I believed in a God. Mondos, as you know, are not recorded. Later, the head of the system sent me a letter in which he stated that he was afraid that my beliefs were going to send me to hell. I will see if I can find that letter, but it was several years ago.

Nothing I have said has been inaccurate. My intent here is to accurately describe what this Ryu is and is not. My intent is neither gossip nor vandalism, but to make sure that incoming students are fully aware of what they are becoming involved in. I assure you that, at brown belt, I believed much as you did and defended the Ryu much as you do. You are unlikely to have much of what the Ryu is about shared with you until you get into the black belt ranks - I know I didn't have it shared with me.

Further, I agree with you that, while a requirement for a belief in God is stated up front, "God" is left undefined until later. Until I was in the middle of my Nidan mondo, I was told that a belief in God was the only requirement with regards to spiritual beliefs. It was during the mondo that I discovered that what is meant by "God" is very much rooted in the Christian concept of it even if only dressed up in other clothing - other views of God are not acceptable.

The problem is, Wikipedia is about creating an encyclopedia, where the facts are verifyable and written from a neutral point of view. Personally trying to warn potential students away because you had a negative experience is not part of that, and your own personal anecdotes are not appropriate for entries into an encyclopedia. If you opened up a traditional printed encyclopedia would you consider it appropriate for the authors personal anecdotes on any subject to be relevant? If the Encyclopedia Brittanica article on the Royal Navy included the author's personal negative experiences during his term of service, would you consider it an appropriate entry?

It is official policy that everything on Wikipedia measure up to a standard of Verifyability. The standard for including things on Wikipedia is not whether they are true, but if they can be verified. "Nothing I have said has been inaccurate" is irrelevant, it's a matter of can you provide verifiable references for them. Since anybody can edit Wikipedia, anybody could come and claim anything, so you have to be able to back up your claims. Also, using Wikipedia as your personal platform to express your opinions is also What Wikipedia is Not.

If you want to start up a web page somewhere to share your stories and why you dislike the Ryu, go right ahead. Making claims that you peronally were decieved in that requirements for promotion were somehow hidden until you were already into the black belt ranks, and that it is a front for religious conversion are pretty tall claims to make with nothing to verify them though.

I know of non-Christians who passed their Nidan tests in Kiyojute Ryu. I don't know what they said to pass the test, while you failed, except that I've been warned for years that the Nidan tests are some of the hardest in the Ryu, and it's a far harder jump from Shodan to Nidan than it is from Ikkyu to Shodan, or from Nidan to Sandan. Essentially, you were facing what are generally considered most difficult tests in the Ryu (Mondo as well as physical), and failed one. I'm sorry you are bitter, but essentially you failed a promotion test and seem to be bitter about the whole process. I'm not defending the Ryu blindly, I've seen the Ryu do a lot of good for a lot of people, and I've seen many people be promoted to high rank, including people of various spiritual backgrounds and belief systems. I've tried to create a neutral, encyclopedic article on Kiyojute Ryu, backed up with plenty of documentation.

The Christian background of Kiyojute Ryu is never hidden, there is even a Cross prominently displayed on their insignia! The sign outside the Hombu Dojo reads "Christian Martial Arts Association". A point is made of teaching students of all faiths, but the Ryu does have a distinctly Christian viewpoint. I've seen a few atheists/agnostics or those with belief systems totally incompatible with Christianity take Kiyojute Ryu, at least for a while, but admittedly I never saw any get even close to the Dan tests, instead quitting long before. --Wingsandsword 07:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Let's make one thing clear. I didn't fail the Nidan test. I never received my results. I took the Nidan test and did the mondo. It was during the mondo that his bigotry was made clear to me and I dropped out of the Ryu. It was a decision that I made once it was made clear to me exactly what I was dealing with - a decison which was particularly justified after he sent me the letter telling me that I was in danger of losing my soul. The Soke, himself, told me on many occasions that if I had a problem with the cross on the tomoe, I could just consider it to be the number "10" in Japanese, which should be taken as the number of perfection. Of course, the cross doesn't look like the Japanese "10", which I didn't realize until I was around brown belt, but that's another story. He then said that I shouldn't get wrapped up in what was, essentially, just a piece of cloth. It was only later that it became clear that it was to be taken much more seriously. Look, I don't have time to continue this. I've tried to present an alternate view so that we could reach some form of objectivity. You have consistently edited what I wrote so as to paint the Ryu in the most favorable light. That's understandable, but its not objective. You've left out the fact that his degree was turned down by an accredited university (I'm looking for when the KSU program became accredited, but haven't found that data yet, but it was turned down by an accredited university before that). You've left out the fact that, though he claims to have a doctorate in Oriental history and philosophy, when I knew him he couldn't even read any Oriental language without constantly resorting to a dictionary (it is impossible to get the nuance of a language if you don't understand the language and it is impossible to understand the history of a people if you don't understand the nuances of their language - look around and see what the percentage is of accredited doctoral level programs in foreign history and philosophy which do not require significant language training, I'd be surprised if you found any). Regardless, it isn't worth my time to keep this up. You think I've got some sort of personal stake in this, though what that would be I haven't the faintest idea. You have consistently changed or deleted my comments regarding their openness to other faiths rather than make the controversy plain (by saying something like "some have said that they do not embrace all concepts of God"). I've done what I can to make people aware and to provide an unbiased, objective presentation of what is going on with this group. It simply isn't worth my time to continue this.

The problem is, you have had this continuing attempt to make this article into your own personal attack piece against William Durbin. You started out by saying that Kiyojute Ryu is nothing but an attempt at conversion to Christianity, then put in your own personal anecdotes and cited what was said in a private conversation to back it up (utterly unverifable). By the way "some have said that they do not embrace all concepts of God" is not suitable for inclusion into Wikipedia, as per Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words, phrases like "some have said" are considered "weasel words" frequently used to state opinion as fact, and are against Wikipedia guidelines. Who said it, where, what notable, credible criticisms are there? I don't mean people ranting away on a message board somewhere, I mean what actual published opinion pieces in martial arts literature say that Kiyojute Ryu does not accept non-Christian belief systems? A quarter century ago he got a non-accredited doctorate as a continuing education requirement for a job he had at a University, and you seem to obsess over picking away at it, when he even admits that many people do not recognize the degree and it's non-accredited. You don't believe he worked for KSU or that they accepted the degree (hence your edit to "claims")? Contact KSU and see if they would disprove it, until then the weight of the evidence is that he did. Does a brief history of Kiyojute Ryu have to devote so much space to "exposing" a matter that the founder been quite forward about?

By the way, the number 10 in Kanji does look like a cross (十 for the Wiktionary entry on it) and also means perfection, I don't see how you could have "realized" that is a deception when it isn't. Any Japanese dictionary will show that. You've then thrown out claims he can't read Japanese well and you believe he is unqualified for his degree, without verifiablity it's meaningless here, your own anecdotes are useless as evidence. You've made it pretty clear through your edits and statements that you're not about providing an objective view, you are writing an attack piece. I'm trying to write a general summary article on the organization, not a "warning" from a disgruntled former student, and having a Neutral Point of View on wikipedia (what we are all striving for) does not mean giving equal time to people with a clearly stated agenda to express a given Point of View. --Wingsandsword 20:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

If you are also the anonymous editor who just changed the article again, thank you for a more moderate viewpoint, we can work together to come to a more reasonable compromise here. [1] A search of the database of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools shows that Kentucky State University was accredited in 1939, so it is an accredited university and was when he worked for them, and the database shows that there have been no sanctions against KSU for any reason related to accreditation. --Wingsandsword 21:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

You are a history student, yes? As such you know that when you make positive assertions, it is on you to provide proof. The burden of proof is not on others to disprove you. When you claim that KSU accepted his fraudulent degree, that is a positive assertion. It is on you to prove that assertion. There are a great many statements that have been made in the article which are claims without actual evidence. I have begun to go through the article section by section to help make everything in it exactly what you have asked for - objective and verifiable. The problems in the recent past have been on both sides of this debate and now, hopefully with your help but without it if necessary, they will be addressed and resolved. Know, however, that statements like "all that is required is that the student have some kind of belief in God" is not verifiable. The statement, "they claim that all that is required is that the student have some kind of belief in God" is verifiable (by pointing to the Kiyojute Ryu FAQ).

Yes, I am a student of History, and the claims I made in this article are backed up by Durbin's own writings on his web page, as well as the books he has published and I referenced. For purposes of Wikipedia standards, the writings and website of the subject of an article are acceptable primary sources (Wikipedia:Reliable sources) when writing about that subject, especially when extraordinary claims which would require extraordinary evidence are not being made. Durbin's own statements on accepting other religions are proof enough for purposes of this article, he says he teaches from a Christian point of view but accepts students of other faiths, as long as they believe in God, which is what the article says. Saying you taught as an instructor for a few years over two decades ago at a minor local university is also not an extraordinary claim, it's a pretty mundane one.

Stating that any college permitted you to teach on the basis of an illegaly granted degree is an extraordinary claim.

Wikipedia states the following regarding the writings and website of the subject of an article.."A personal website or blog may be used only as a primary source i.e. when we are writing about the subject or owner of the website. But even then we should proceed with great caution and should avoid relying on information from the website as a sole source. This is particularly true when the subject is controversial, or has no professional or academic standing." Obviously, the subject is controversial elsewise you and I wouldn't be having this controversy. Therefore, we should avoid using it as a source.

Now you're basing your criticism on him recieving credentials from Rod Sacharnoski. Okay, feel free to start a page at Rod Sacharnoski or Juko Kai and say all you feel must be said about Sacharnoski and Juko Kai, in fact given how controversial Sacharnoski is in martial arts he probably deserves a minor wikipedia article, and wikilink it to this article when he is mentioned so a reader can go and read for himself about him. I've got absolutely no problem with him having his own article, where criticism of him is best left. However, a brief history of Kiyojute Ryu does not need to spend much of it's length attacking Sacharnoski, since the controversy around him is only a minor part of its history.

When that brief history of Kiyojute Ryu states that it was acknowledged by a suspect organization - the ZKSSBR, it is necessary to point out that it was acknolwedged by that suspect organization.

I'm looking right now at the Kiyojute Ryu handbook which lists all the recognitions Kiyojute Ryu has. Besides Sacharnoski, he is also recognized by Thomas Mitose, the son and heir to James Mitose, and Nimr Hassan. Even leaving them and the entire Mitose controversy aside, he is recognized by Bruce Juchnik and Ramon Lono Ancho, who are highly respected, as well as Bill "Superfoot" Wallace (a very well known and highly respected figure in martial arts). It's hardly like Sacharnoski is the only person who ever recognized Durbin and Kiyojute Ryu, just the first. --Wingsandsword 02:49, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Which is why I wrote that Durbin's credentials come primarily from Sacharnoski.

wrt Jeff Boler's comments, the issue is not what William Durbin's skill level is. That's impossible to objectively measure or objectively verify. Nor have I ever argued that William Durbin hides the fact that he ties martial arts strongly to spiritual development (whatever that means) or that he is a Baptist minister. Both of those things, I suspect, can be verified. What cannot be verified is how strict his standards are regarding "God" when he states that every senior student holding title is expected to belive in God. While it pains me to say so, I cannot verify that a certified instructor told me in a phone conversation that this was withheld from me in the hopes that I would convert as I went up in rank. I can say that John Curtis is aware of this instructor as he was there when I was told that (around 2000), but its not verifiable. Therefore, it does not belong in the article. I cannot verify that he was well on his way to losing control when he asked me, in a mondo, if I believed in God and I replied "it depends on what you mean by God". You cannot verify any claim that they are open to all concepts of God unless you have some means to verify that that I have not yet thought of (and I'd be interested in hearing about it since it conficts with my personal experience).

entry December 19----

It's hard to follow this...

I suspect, and could see his point, that Durbin doesn't promote anyone past a certain rank, if they do not hold the same, or at least similar, religious beliefs, because that makes up a huge portion of the instruction. (Or at least it should if the instructor is a "master.")

From my recollection of his student handbook, it does clearly state that members of ANY religion are welcomed to take classes at his school, as long as they respect the religious beliefs, teachings, etc., of the Soke. It does not say that you are guaranteed a rank. You are not going to see the Catholic church promote someone to Bishop, if they are practicing Wiccans. Nothing against the members of the Wiccan faith, but let's face, there are major difference between the two.

Durbin's philosophy is different, and it's clearly not for everyone. But those who share the same religious convictions, should do fine.

Quite frankly, I think it's admirable that he sticks to his convictions. Most instructors would look at the potential financial loss of loosing a student....and go ahead and make the promotion.

J.Boler

As long as it is verifiable, I'm fine with the article being written that way. Something along the lines of "According to the student handbook, members of ANY religion are welcomed to take classes at his school, as long as they respect the religious beliefs, teachings, etc., of the Soke. It does not say that you are guaranteed a rank. You are not going to see the Catholic church promote someone to Bishop, if they are practicing Wiccans. Nothing against the members of the Wiccan faith, but let's face, there are major difference between the two. Kiyojute Ryu likewise discriminates against forms of belief in God and spiritual faiths which are different from Christian concepts with regard to attaining higher ranks/titles. If a potential student is an animist or pantheist or perhaps even a panentheist, he/she should consult with his instructors and get it in writing that such discrimination will not occur."

Is it discrimination if your own personal philosophies don't match those that the system is founded upon? Is it discrimination if the Catholic church doesn't promote a Wiccan to Bishop? I suppose the point could be made either way. However...if you are a dan rank in the Kiyojute Ryu system, you should be well aware that number one, it's a christian based system, number two, Durbin himself considers the "spiritual side" to be the most important, and number three, you should realize that your chances for advancement are going to slow down, the further you go up. If you cannot teach the religious fundamentals and principles that the system is built upon, then I certainly understand why he wouldn't give you that title. (or rank, depending on the case).

I hate to say this, but it sounds to me like your just upset you didn't get the rank. Which brings up a few points that maybe Durbin should consider. Number one, be upfront about the goals of the system (which I think he is), and if your religious point of view will keep you from advancing, you should be told that. I think he already infers that, but maybe he should just come out and say it. Number two, perhaps the instructors who have other Kiyojute Ryu schools are not teaching the religious fundamentals as they are supposed to be taught. Perhaps the failure is there's, and Durbin's real issue becomes the individual instructors themselves.

Kiyojute Ryu should be considered a "religious organization", not just another Karate dojo. There's a vast difference between the two.

J Boler

"Is it discrimination if your own personal philosophies don't match those that the system is founded upon? Is it discrimination if the Catholic church doesn't promote a Wiccan to Bishop?" Yes, it is. I'd go so far as to say that it is justifiable discrimination. However, what is not justifiable is obscurring the fact that it is going to happen. The Ryu's faq states that all that is required is a belief in God. That's not true. When he told me all through the colored belts that it wouldn't be a problem and then it became a problem, that wasn't justifiable. When I was told that the reason I wasn't told that it would be a problem was that it was hoped that my faith would change by the time it would be, that wasn't justifiable. That's why this needs to be in writing - because what they told me at the lower ranks isn't what they told me at the higher ranks and I want to make sure noone else has to go through what I did.

"I hate to say this, but it sounds to me like your just upset you didn't get the rank." That's a fair statement and I want everyone here to feel like they are able to say whatever they feel needs to be said. However, I think you overlooked the point that I made earlier. I didn't leave the ryu after I didn't get the rank. I left the ryu before the belt test results were presented. I did so because his bigotry was apparent in the mondo and it stood in stark contrast to all the lies he and his certified instructors had told me earlier.

Regarding the religious aspects, I'd like to see the following changes to the Ryu's faq 1.) a specific, detailed explanation of what exactly is meant by "God" according to the Ryu - a description which makes it clear that pantheists need not apply 2.) a specific statement saying what you just wrote - that while the Ryu accepts people of all faiths, their ability to gain promotions will become increasingly limited 3.) a specific statement stating that it is every bit as much of a religious organization as a martial art - I'm guessing this may affect how the Universities relate to it's clubs as they will need to be treated as religious organizations.

I think that's a fair request. And I think for an entry into an encyclopedia, it would require a much more clear statement from the person in charge, as to the religious expectations of the practitioner. It should, however, be included. Although, I dare say that he would not even approve of the entry. He's never been a big fan of the internet....

This is not one of those instances were someone is bashing him about his Juko Kai links. This is a serious issue, and one that he needs to address. Hopefully someone will put this to his attention.

J Boler

Whatever you think of "bashing him about his Juko Kai links", it needs to be mentioned that his doctorate was fraudulently granted for $100. (I believe that dollar value is right, that's what it was at one time) and that the recognition by the ZKSBBR isn't worth the paper it's written on (given as how it was bestowed by a fraud).

The Juko Kai stuff really should be in an article to itself. I will, however, briefly address both of these points.

The ZKSBBR is the branch of Juko Kai that licenses "Soke's." Yes, Mr. Durbin did receive his "Sokeship" from this organization. It should also be noted that as of the last time I had heard, he is the Vice President of this branch.

The UOP is an internal division of Juko Kai that did offer "degrees", one of which is the PHD that Durbin maintains. At the time he received it, I do not know where Juko Kai was based at, therefore I cannot determine or say whether or not it was a licensed school. I believe every state has Proprietary Education laws that govern them. I know that a couple of years ago, a request was made to the State of Maine (where Juko Kai was based at the time), and they were not operating under the state laws. That was, as I understand it, corrected.

It should be noted that Durbin does have a Bachelor's degree from Campbellsville College (now Campbellsville University.) If his "PHD" was issued fraudulently, then he is a victim of the same organization he represents.

Regardless, this particular issue is more "Juko Kai" and less Bill Durbin.

J Boler

With regards to the ZKSBBR, then it should be pointed out that the Ryu gets its "official" recognition from an organization run by a fraud and whose second in command is the head of the Ryu. If what you say is true, then its "official" recognition becomes even more suspect. The UOP has operated in two different locations total to the best of my knowledge. Those are Maine and North Carolina. Logic dictates that as it moved from Maine to North Carolina after it was closed (having never been officially approved to run as a non accredited school), it was operating illegally when Durbin got his doctorate. If this is not true, then we need evidence of this. The default is to go with the preponderance of evidence and the preponderance of evidence says that the UOP was operating illegally in the past (I don't know if it fixed that problem by relocating, but that's irrelevant so far). What is "more Bill Durbin" is the fact that he continues to state that he has a PhD and the legitimacy of this PhD is being called into question.

Number one, and to my knowledge, Sacharnoski has never been convicted of fraud. What your stating is libelous at best. He has no convictions of fraud, and has never been accused of it. (In a court of law.) Therefore, it would be improper to make reference to it, in an encyclopedia entry.

I work for the Division of Kentucky State Government that licenses Proprietary Education schools here in the state, and I am quite familiar with how the law works nationwide. In regards to the actions taken by Maine, they took no legal action, other than to send a "cease and desist" type of letter to Sacharnoski. If he was compliant, then there would be no further problems. It's my understanding that he actually became licensed shortly after receiving the letter.

Also, if he ran the UOP every time he moved, he would be required to be licensed in the state of his residence. To my knowledge, he has lived in Maine, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Indiana, and probably a couple of others. If the UOP was operating in any of those states, he would be required to have a license in that state.

As to the ZKSBBR, there's no fraud there. It clearly states that they are a division of Juko Kai, and that they act as a Sokeship granting body. You either buy into it or you don't. What needs to be brought into question here would be his Asian sponsorship, which has primarily been, Shian Toma. Toma's people refuse to answer questions concerning Sacharnoski, so you almost have to believe that he's aware of it, and he agrees with it. He just wont say so one way, or the other.

I'm not defending Sacharnoski here, i'm simply stating what is verifiable and what isn't. If you cannot provide proof one way or the other, then it would be improper to include it in such an article. But again, Sacharnoski should not be the topic of discussion here. If you want to throw stones at him, write a article on him. There are at least court documents available that detail several of the problems concerning him.

J Boler

You keep talking about Sacharnoski. What we should be talking about is the legitimacy of Durbin's "doctorate". The central controversy with regard to that is whether UOP was legally empowered to grant doctorates in the state of Maine before it was illegally shut down for not having been approved to grant doctorates by the state of Maine. Considering that Maine's website calls people who run such schools "scam artists" would you prefer if I used the term "scam" to "fraud"? What would be improper is to put anything in the article which is not verifiable. I'm all for removing everything that isn't verifiable. That includes the insinuation that Kiyojute Ryu gains authority in the martial arts community due to its recognition by the ZKSBBR. It means not calling Durbin a doctor of anything because the legitimacy of his PhD is in question. I think pointing out that he claims a doctorate from a school known to be operating illegally is well within the bounds of verifiability.

Since FRAUD is actually the title of an OFFENSE, then yes, it is inapprorpiate to use that term, because he has not been convicted of that. You wouldn't call someone a murderer if they haven't been convicted of such an offense. (Not without committing some level of defamation or libel.)

I have checked with the proprietary education divisions of Texas and Maine, and the UOP is not listed with either. So, I think that Durbin using the title is clearly inappropriate, and somewhat deceiving. Since publishers of his previous books have also agreed and removed that reference in later editions, he probably should drop it's use. But I doubt that he will.

As for the ZKSBBR, that is nothing more than a division of Juko Kai, and one of the requirements is that you are a member of Juko Kai. I've never insinuated that Kiyojute Ryu gains authority in the martial arts community due to its recognition by the ZKSBBR. My point is in stating where his title of Soke comes from, and that "recognizing" the title by the martial arts community is simply your choice. You either do, or you don't. There is no governing body for the martial arts in America. It's a title, nothing more. I don't think anyone is demanding that anybody recognize it. Their pushing point has always been that it is recognized in Asia. Since Toma will not respond to questions concering his signature appearing on documents, then I have to conclude that it's legit. Does that mean that you have to recognize it? No. But you can't disprove it either.

A search of the laws of the state of Kentucky [2] show that it does not appear to be illegal under the Kentucky Revised Statutes to use the title "Doctor" if you don't have a degree, it says it is only illegal if you are claiming to be a medical doctor or otherwise in the health-care field. "Fraudulent" is a very loaded word, and strongly implies criminal intent, and there is no sign he is violating Kentucky law, or that he got his degree in bad-faith (why would he have any reason to believe the degree was not a legal, albeit unaccredited one when he got it)? Would you feel better if he got a legally recognized but also non-accredited degree from a diploma mill somewhere? Would a different piece of paper from a different place change everything?

After the John Seigenthaler Sr. Wikipedia biography controversy scandal, keeping defamatory accusations out of biographies on Wikipedia has been a high priority. Strongly negative accusations in an article require ironclad documentation, which you most certainly don't have.

Really, start an article on Juko Kai and tell the whole story of Dr. Sacharnoski, the UOP, and ZKSBBR. Since after the recent changes over the Siegenthaler scandal, anonymous editors can't create new articles, if you want I'll create a basic stub of the article and you can document it with all the controversies over the UOP, Combat Ki, the lawsuits, ect.

You've also said that the Kiyojute Ryu site is not a reliable source because there is "controversy". The only "controversy" here is because a admittedly irate former member is refusing to believe anything they say. Durbin has a few critics, but virtually every prominent martial artist alive does, especially those that are not part of very large organizations like Kodokan or Aikikai. Sacharnoski is controversial because of all the lawsuits and the extremely dubious claims about "Combat Ki". Nimr Hassan/Terry Lee is controversial because of the murder conviction, Ashida Kim is controversial as an infamous hoaxster. If Kiyojute Ryu so controversial, where are the loads of critical websites and lawsuits one would expect of a controversial martial artist? A quick check of the net shows plenty of critical sites about Juko Kai, but critical statements about Kiyojute Ryu are virtually all in message board posts (which is specifically not an acceptable secondary source for wikipedia information by policy).

Also, you keep bludgeoning in the point that Kiyojute Ryu is recognized by ZKSBBR, and must therefore be bogus. Remember that it is recognized by other well known and respected martial artists and organizations. Would you feel better if the article mentioned every single entity to recognize Kiyojute Ryu? ZKSBBR was the first and it was originally founded at Sacharnoski's suggestion, but it is far from the only one to recognize it now.

As for being Vice President of the ZKSBBR, he doesn't claim that in the current edition of the student handbook, merely that he is a member. I can't find a quote on his web site where he says this either. I can find a passing reference on the web from 2001 at the latest that mentions this, but nothing within the last 4 years. He may well have stepped down, or he doesn't currently consider himself to hold the position while Sacharnoski still lists him as such, but it's a position he certainly doesn't boast about now (not even in the handbook, where he lists even the most minor of awards and positions he's recieved).

Earlier you said it was an extraordinary claim that he was allowed to teach at KSU. He does have a Bachelor's degree from Campbellsville University that is completely beyond reproach in terms of legitimacy, and it is quite possible to be a staff instructor at a university on merely a Bachelor's degree. His own faq says KSU accepted the UOP degree for purposes of determining pay raises, not for hiring and not for admissions. Note that he also says that as of 1979 he was teaching at Campbellsville [3], before he got any degrees from the UOP, are you going to dispute that too?

Also, this article is starting to exceed the normal 32kb cap on wikipedia articles, so I'm going to archive this discussion. --Wingsandsword 17:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)