Talk:Kebab

Archives
Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 00:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 - Archived on November 22, 2006

Comments

any reason for omitting its Arabic?

The word is basically the same in both Arabic, Turkish and Persian [1]. Are there any sober arguments for omitting the former? Bertilvidet 22:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

And it is also the same in Greek: κεμπάπ:). the point is if all names should be included or if only the first, the original one. Hectorian 22:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

If you ask me I would include all the relevant names Alex Bakharev 22:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no ojection in either case: i would not mind seeing only the original one, nor would i mind seeing all the relevant names included. what i would mind would be a selection of names, based on (for a food article!) God knows which criteria:) Hectorian 22:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, which one do you happen to think is the "original" one. Etymological references differ whether to claim the original is Turkish, Arabic, Persian or include two or all three. Bertilvidet 08:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not know... But i guess there must be a source reliable than the others. this one shall be used and the other names to be moved further down. or, if all are reliable enough, all should be including in the lead. Hectorian 08:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, as the etymologists not are sure about the orgins of its word, we should reflect that rather than just pointing to one of the languages. Thus the article must mention all three languages, namely Arabic, Persian and Turkish. Seems that we agree?? Bertilvidet 09:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Btw, the Turkish Language Coucil does not claim the word (kebap) to be Turkish, but to be Arabic. [2] Bertilvidet 09:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

If even the Turkish Language Council does not calim the word to be turkish, we should not include it. we should only include the two langauges that seem to raise a dispute on the word's origins. i mean, if there are reliable sources claiming that it is arabic and others stating it is persian, then, i see no reason to include languages in which it definately is a borrowing. by taking a look in the list, i see that the word is used in many languages, and, had the article not been protected, i would have included the greek as well:). Hectorian 11:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"The word kabab (کباب) is ultimately from Persian[1][2] but originally meant fried meat, not grilled meat.[3] The Arabic word possibly derives from Aramaic kabbābā, which probably has its origins in Akkadian kabābu meaning "to burn, char".[4] In the 14th century dictionary Lisan al'Arab, kebab is defined to be synonymous with tabahajah, a Persian word for a dish of fried meat pieces. The Persian word was considered more high-toned in the medieval period, and as a result, kebab was used infrequently in Arabic books of that time. Only in the Turkish period, with the appearance of the phrase shish kebab, did kebab gain its current meaning, whereas earlier shiwa` شواء had been the Arabic word for grilled meat. However, kebab still retains its original meaning in the names for stew-like dishes such as tas kebab (bowl kebab).[3] Similarly, "kebab halla" is an Egyptian dish of stewed beef and onions".

I have some notes regarding the above:

1. We have previously established that the origin is disputed, so why does the opening statement say in such a definite tone that it is ultimately Persian? Shouldn’t the opening statement clearly affirm that the origin is disputed?
2. Shiwaa’ شِوَاء does not really mean grilled meat, shiwaa’ (if anyone would care to take a look at the dictionaries) is any food that is cooked directly on or in the fire without water or oil or any other liquid – i.e., it includes grilling, roasting and/or baking. It is used for all types of meat, all types of vegetables as well as bread and pastries. A variation of that word, mashaawi, is currently used to refer to grilled food, kabaab being only one type of mashaawi.
3. I don’t know what kabbaba means in Aramaic or Akkadian, but if someone would like to take a look at Taj Al Aroos, another highly regarded classical Arabic dictionary, it says the following: “الكبَاب، هو اللَّحْمُ يُكَبُّ على الجَمْرِ” – “Kabaab, is meat that is “yukabbu” on fire”; the verb kabba, from which the passive present tense yukabbu has been derived (and ultimately the word kabbab, as the dictionary claims) has the meaning of “throwing/falling on one’s face, turning over and putting/throwing down, lumping/mixing together and throwing down”. Another word derived from the same root (K-B-B) is Kubba (better known to non-Arabs by it’s Lebanese pronunciation “Kibbi”) called so because in the act of making it you would put the burghul around the minced meat and throw it from one hand to the other (kabba) until it takes the required shape. The word kabaab (according to Taj Al Aroos and Al Qamoos Al Muheet) literally means “meat that has been thrown on the fire”.
4. The claim “The Persian word was considered more high-toned in the medieval period, and as a result, kebab was used infrequently in Arabic books of that time.” is unsubstantiated and I believe irrelevant.
5. It should be noted that in Arabic Kabaab actually refers to the minced meat type whether grilled, baked, roasted or even fried (yes, sometimes it's fried). The meat pieces (called in the west shis-kabaab) are sometimes called shuqaf (lit. small pieces) but mostly tikka.
6. On an overall note, I think that the whole section should be re-written as it’s not clear and one needs to read it twice or thrice before one would figure out who says what.

I’d like to point out that I’m not claiming anything, and I frankly don’t care if kabaab turned out to be Persian or Turkish or even Chinese but it might be useful to keep the information accurate. --Maha Odeh (talk) 08:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Historical Sources

In an effort to resolve this controversy, I provide below different opinions on the origins of kebab and its name. Note that Wikipedia WP:NPOV policy is to include all significant opinions whenever facts are disputed.

1. OED: Arab. kabāb (also in Pers. and Urdu), in same sense.

From The Food Timeline:

2. "Kebab. A dish consisting basically of small pieces of meat threaded on to skewers and grilled or roasted. It originated in Turkey and eventually spread to the Balkans and the Middle East. The name is a shortened form of the Tukish sis kebab, sis meaning skewer and kebab meaning roast meat." ---Larousse Gastronomique, completely revised and updated [Clarkson Potter:New York] 2001 (p. 646)

3. "Sis Kebabi...It is said that shish bebab was born over the open-field fires of medieval Turkic soldiers, who used their swords to grill meat. Given the obvious simplicity of spit-roasting meat over a fire, I suspect its genesis is earlier. There is iconographical evidence of Byzantine Greeks cooking shish kebabs. But surely the descriptions for skewering strips of meat for broiling in Homer's Odyssey must count for an early shish kebab." ---A Mediterranean Feast, Clifford A. Wright [William Morrow:New York] 1999 (p. 333)

4. "Kebab. Now an English culinary term usually occurring as sis (or shish) kebab, meaning small chunks of meat grilled on a skewer. Shashlik is a term which means essentially the same a sis kebab but belongs essentially the same as sis kebab but belongs to the countries of the Caucasus (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia)...The word kebab has an interesting history. In the Middle Ages the Arabic word kabab always meant fried meat. The compendious 14th-century dictionary Lisdan al'Arab defines kabab as tabahajah, which is a dish of fried pieces of meat, usually fininshed with some liquid in the cooking. The exact shape of the pieces of meat is not clear. However, since there was a separate class of dish called saraih, which consisted of long and thin strips of meat, and since most modern dishes called kebab call for more or less cubical chunks, it seems likely that kabab was chunks rather than strips. Kabab/kebab is not a common word in the early medieval Arabic books, because the Persian word tabahajah (diminutive of tabah) provided an alternative which was considered more high-toned. It is because of this original meaning that one still finds dishes such as tas kebab (bowl kebab) which are really stews. In the Middle Ages the Arabic word for grilled meat was not kebab but siwa. It was only in the Turkish period that such words as sishkebab or seekh kebab made their appearance. However all this may be, the custom of roasting meat in small chunks on a skewer seems to be very ancient in the Near East. Part of the reason for this may have to do with the urban nature of the civilization there. ..in the Near East they would go to a butcher's shop and buy smaller cuts. However, a more important reason, and the basic one, was surely that fuel has long been in short supply in the Near East..." ---Oxford Companion to Food, Alan Davidson [Oxford University Press:Oxford] 1999 (p. 429)

5. "Kebab. Roasting marinated meat on spit while basting with fat is described both in Sanskrit and Tamil literature...the kabab has a distinct identity as a dainty from the Middle East which is particularly favoured by the Muslims in India...Ibn Battuta records chicken kaba being served by royal houses during the Sultanate period. Even common folk at kabab and paratas for breakfast, and in Mugal India a few centuries later it was still naan and kabab." ---A Historical Dictionary of Indian Food, K. T. Achaya [Oxford University Press:Delhi] 1998 (p. 115)

nadav 07:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

6. То, что шашлык - это важная составная общетюркской кухни, и азербайджанской в частности - это неопровержимо. И даже В.В.Похлебкин, который уже имеет опыт "армянизирования" о шашлыке, пишет: "что касается слова "Шашлык", несмотря на его тюркское происхождение...". Да, правда часто бывает горькой, но иногда ее заменить сладкой ложью бывает невозможно. Обычно, всему новому название дает создатель. Поэтому именно в названиях и надо искать ключи к происхождению. Слово шашлык, безусловно, имеет тюркское происхождение. И сегодня почти в каждой азербайджанской семье имеется шиш (шампор), на котором жарят шишлик или кабаб (в разных районах готовят "шишлик", "шишкабаб" или "кабаб"). Слово "шиш" означает острие, возвышенность и т.п. Например, "уджу шиш агадж" (кол с заостренным концом), "шиш даг" (гора с заостренной вершиной) и т.п. Приставка "~лик" указывает на применимость к чему-либо (эквивалент в русском – слово “для”). Например "этлик хейван" (животное на мясо), "инлик jун" (шерсть для ниток) и т.д. В древнетюркском литературном памятнике "Книга Деде Горгуда" читаем: "Гоjун вергил - бу оглана шишлик олсун" ("Давайте баранов - пусть этому парню на шишлык будет"). (T.Amiraslanov, IRS Magazine, "Explanation to some errors", #4-13, 2002, in Russian) --AdilBaguirov 11:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Armenian

In the quote above, it is written that it is called Shashlik in Armenia (and Georgia, Azerbaijan). Not so. Shashlik is the word in Georgia, and I don't know what they use in Azer, but I suspect Russians call it Shashlik as well, from the Georgian. In Armenia, on the article page, there needs to be more than simply "Khorovadz" for Armenia. It should explain that Khorovadz is the name for solid chunks of mean (or vegetables like entire tomatoes, eggplants or peppers), while Kebab means ground meat - pork is what you'd normally get unless otherwise specified. --RaffiKojian 06:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

RV vandalism

This page gets a lot of vandalism by IP anons and new users, who make weird entries. I reverted the last one, but perhaps placing permanent semi-protection would help reduce vandalism? --AdilBaguirov 10:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There isn't that much vandalism, they wont protect it yet. Artaxiad 18:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

considering how many IP anons change the page, admins should semi-protect this page to make lives easier for everyone. --AdilBaguirov 19:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah a few more will do it, there isn't that much activity I'm sure they'll reject it. Artaxiad 04:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Doner kebab

Hi Artaxiad,

Firstly, may I learn the reason why you removed the second sentence and all the associated references in the etymology section? Besides, the second sentence that you removed takes its reference from the first source, namely Oxford companion to food, not from the dictionaries.

Secondly, may I learn the reason why you removed the Doner kebab section? There are also a separate section suc as Shish kebab, and lots of secondary sections as well. If the editors improve the article there can be more main sections. But why removing the section instead of improving the article and adding more sections?

Chapultepec 09:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Doner kebab is not notable enough to be there. Secondly shish kebab defiantly is. Doner is not well-known, in some countries it may. The other references were removed for the lack of description provided. Artaxiad 09:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi again, let's finish the etymology section at first. I repeat, the second sentence you removed was referenced to the book "Oxford companion to Food", not to the dictionaries. And I think it's credible enough. Chapultepec 09:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

As for the second one, you may be right, shish kebab is more notable and more widely known than doner kebab. But doner kebab is also largely notable in Europe and is known in the US, and as donair in Canada etc. So, we can place shish kebab in the first place as it is more notable, and the latter in the second.

And I repeat, there are also a separate section, and lots of secondary sections as well. If the editors improve the article there can be more main sections. But why removing the section instead of improving the article and adding more sections? --Chapultepec 09:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to add my two cents (excuse the Americanism) but here in the UK, "Kebab" refers almost exlcusively to a Doner Kebab, I can't remember the last time I heard it as a reference to skewered meat. It's certainly notable Triangl (talk) 21:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Ive never heard of shish kebab, where as doner kebab is well known throughout Australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.27.54.4 (talk) 14:16, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Iskender kebab

I noticed that the user 219.108.152.25 made some changes on the article by adding an image. Would he/she please take a look at the section Döner kebab in the article? Now the section became unreadable. Haven't we better use this image in the section Kebabs of Turkey which already lacks a photograph? Thanks... Chapultepec 07:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi,

Thanks for contacting me. I am not sure if you know that Iskender kebap is an important kebap which probably changed the world as we know it :). Actually it is the first doner kebab in the world. Thats why I preferred to put it in the doner kebap section. Its not just a kebab of Turkey. It would be a pity to put it on the same level with Alanya kebap, which is probably a touristic variation I have never heard of. I would still prefer it to be in the doner section, and I thought it was readible. If it is not, then I wood recommend we take the other picture of the doner kebap which is taken in Germany out, and put this authentic one. What would you say?

Hi again, finally we could meet :) Of course I know that Iskender kebab is an important one. But, let's not forget. Iskender kebab is a type of döner kebab and has its own sub-section in the section Kebabs of Turkey of the article. And as you can notice this section currently lacks a photograph and needs at least one. So, why should we place the image in the section Döner kebab which already has a photo of its own instead of placing it in the section Kebabs of Turkey ?

As for readability, you can check the previous versions of the article in history. The section Döner kebab is already a short text and one photograph is fair enough for that. When you placed the second one the text went downwards and of course this made the section harder to read.

Thanks. Chapultepec 08:33, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with our anonymous friend: the doner picture mostly just shows a pita. You have to look hard to tell it's not falafel in there :). I prefer the other picture because it clearly shows the meat and how it was sliced off, which is the defining characteristic of doner kebab. As a visual aid, therefore, it's more useful. nadav 08:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok then, let's remove the other one and relocate the new image to the section döner kebab. Chapultepec 08:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I made the replacement, do you have any comments regarding the image size and title? Chapultepec 08:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

- Hi, again, I dont think iskender kebap is a type of doner kebap, it is the doner kebap. Thats why Id like to see it in the doner section. Also I looked at history and couldnt see why this is unreadable: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kebab&diff=prev&oldid=122940204 - I would recommend we put the pita doner in the kebab variations section, if you still dont like the idea what you last did is also ok by me219.108.152.25 08:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC) the anonym guy

There was a big gap in the text caused by the second image. As for the pita döner, I couldn't find a better place to relocate it. I will have a try to place it under iskender kebab image without spoiling the text. Please wait. Chapultepec 09:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks alot. 219.108.152.25 09:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)the anonym guy

You're welcome. Eh, artık bugün bir İskender şart oldu...:) Chapultepec 09:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Afiyet seker olsun :)

Looks good to me how it is now. BTW, I think I will turn the etymology section into a history section, probably basing it off the Oxford Companion to Food and the other sources I mentioned above.

Branching off list of kebabs

Also, the list of kebab variants is really huge now. Perhaps we should put it into a separate sub-article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nadav1 (talk • contribs) 09:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

Turning the etymology section into a history section is a good idea. But would you please detail your second suggestion? Would you like to turn the section "some kebab variants" into a separate article like kebab variants? Chapultepec 10:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I think people come to this page to read about what kebab is, its history and so forth. Obviously the list of variants is very important, but as of now it is the principal part of the article. I propose greatly expanding the history/etymology section and then creating a List of kebab variants page which would be the main article for the current "Some kebab variants" section. The current section would just describe in a few words the most important kinds maybe.

Also, is there a good reason why "Shish kebab in other languages" is taking up all this room or even needs to be here? After all, this is the english wikipedia, so we should list only common english names - just as rice doesn't mention names for rice in other countries. People who want to learn what it's called in Tagalog should go to the corresponding Tagalog page. nadav 10:33, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I strongly support your idea on "Shish kebab in other languages". Wikipedia is not a multilingual dictionary. What shall we do if the list gets bigger comprising over 100 languages?

As for the second suggestion, namely List of kebab variants, also feasible. But how shall we determine the most important ones? It can be a hard business to do that. Chapultepec 10:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll work on this tomorrow. In the worst case, we can make the current section blank and just say "main article: [[list of.." nadav 11:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that's also possible. Chapultepec 11:13, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

changes to etymology

It is already emphasized repeatedly that shish kebab is from Ottoman times and that shish is turkish. We don't need to emphasize it yet again in the etymology. The etymology and history of shish kebab looks complete. What's needed now is more on recipes, ingrediants, and styles. (Also in the woefully unsourced doner kebab section). Then we can move the totally unreferenced list of variants to nother page and this article will suddenly be GA material. nadav 20:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Greece

Traditionally known kebabs in Greece are "τας κεμπάπ" (pronounced "tass kebap", =tas kebab), "κεμπάπ" (pronounced "kebap", =kebab in a long skewer ~1 meter) and "Σις κεμπάπ" (pronounced "Ssiss kebap" - with soft "s" not like "sh", =shish kebab).

A picture of "kebap" is here, it is the one in the upper skewer.

Proper Template without Turkish Flag

It is better to remove that template with Turkish flag as the article is not only related to Turkey!--195.140.128.203 12:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You can just add a horizontal template for other relevant cuisines to the bottom of the page. Deniz^T_C 03:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

Shash kabab, shash kebab, shish kabob, shish kebab, shashlik here I can say that shash or shish mean six. Usually in Tajikistan shash/shishkabob or shashlik is cooked with 5 pieces of meat and one piece of fat. Shish means six. 1-yak 2-du, 3-se, 4-chor, 5-panj, 6-shish. --Ibrahimjon 13:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

it means skewer. Deniz^T_C 03:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Rearrangment of paragraph

After saying that doner kebabs are the most popular take away food in a whole heap of countries, the following sentence "Doner Kebab is largely unknown outside of large cities like NYC" seems very out of place. Please discuss or fix. Bazzbee 124.185.160.96 03:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

cheese anyone?

i didnt know there was so much to whine about food. I think this discussion has gotten out of hand. There are more issues regarding pride than accuracy in most of these topics. If everyone wants to be so technical about such irrelevance, I suggest you people communicate in correct grammar. And I also suggest that you research on a topic more simple, yet more original, and authentic, and accurate, and useful, and interesting, and what not. Chopsticks. Chopsticks were made to cook. Chopsticks allowed for simple mechanisms to cook with heat; Asians used 2 sticks at a time rather than only 1, like you people do. They are essentially kebabs but on a more intelligent yet simple level. Asians don't take so much pride in the capabilities of a stick over fire, not the capabilities of 2 sticks over a fire. Because there seems to be such a fuss about technicality, i dare you people to find out where chopsticks were originated and how stupid these discussions can get. Imagine if chopsticks had a discussion this bad. There's a longer history of chopsticks being used. The significance of this tool is far much greater in discovery of the human race. There is more tradition behind chopsticks than any kebab can manage. I thought the kebab's history has many references of sourced written history, but I am disappointed in such noise in these discussions. Once again, chopticks my friend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.80.181.186 (talk) 15:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Claims of kabab being native to Greece

I'd like to see some solid sources to back up the ridiculous claim that kababs are native to Greece and have been attested to since ancient times. It seems more like a case of someone finding a similar food and claiming it as being the same thing as kabab (as in the classical Persian style of shish kabab). IranianGuy (talk) 14:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)