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November 2

Parody songs

In parody songs, how do they make the changed words have the same voice actor as the original song? jc iindyysgvxc (my contributions) 11:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Impersonators - presumably. SteveBaker (talk) 12:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

If you mean by the style of Weird Al Yankovich, then yes, it's impersonation. Letter ⁷ _{it's the best letter :)} 13:56, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The more specific term could be impressionist, although "impersonator" seems to be used more often in some cases, such as "Elvis impersonators". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Look at the articles Parody music and Satire. Parody songs are funny when they exaggerate particular characteristics that can be recognized in the original. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:02, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

A good example, if I can find it, [1] would be Billy Barty impersonating Liberace on the Spike Jones TV show in the 1950s. Barty appears about 2 minutes into the 6 minute clip, and ever-increasing chaos ensues. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Trespassing Laws NC & SC

Hey, it's the kayaking guy, and I have two more questions:

See my archived question for the full story--search Kayaking Escapade in Miscellaneous.

1. Seeing as I'll be on a multiple night kayaking trip (from Wilkesboro, NC, to the ocean-end of the Pee-Dee River in South Carolina), I need to know about trespassing/camping laws in both states, and potential laws that I may need to hold in mind. Also, would asking special permission from governments be able to help.

2. I need sponsorship ideas! I've now decided to use this trip to raise money for hearing impaired individuals, as my traveling partner and I are both hearing impaired. So, what is a hearing impairment association (preferably national or a charitable local) that donations could be for? Also, what specific companies/outfitters should I write to in search of getting sponsorships? (Again, see my archived post to see all my items needed (but include sunglasses in something that I could get a sponsorship for).

And if someone could put a quick-link to my previous article, that would be great. I'm not a pro at WikiEditting, or even vaguely familiar, so...

Thanks! Hubydane (talk) 16:35, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

State laws vary, and we can't offer legal advice, so you should check with a lawyer if that's what you want. However, my understanding is that, in most parts of the United States, it is illegal to camp except in a public campground upon payment of a camping fee or on private property after securing the permission of the owner. So you would need to identify the owner of anyplace other than a public campground where you intend to camp and get permission. Camping outside of campgrounds is also possible in some national forests or parks, but you typically need to secure a backcountry camping permit (for a fee) in advance. I would carefully identify places along your route where you hope to camp and secure permission in advance before setting out if I were you. Marco polo (talk) 22:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Camping is allowed anywhere in the national forests where it isn't expressly prohibited - but I don't know if the op's course goes through any of them. This dispersed camping is generally free although sometimes a some permit is required (a fire permit or parking permit) and it is, of course, poorly advertised. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 03:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

How many national parks would the Yadkin-PeeDee run through; that's my river of choice (and basically the only river I can do)? And I wouldn't necessarily need a parking comment...I'm in a kayak. :D Hubydane (talk) 03:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

My impression is that the only national forest (which is different in the USA than a national park) the Yadkin Pee Dee runs through (or alongside of) is the Uwharrie National Forest http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/recreation/uwharrie/index.htm although you'll want to (a) check this on your map and (b) verify with them what their camping policies are. Jwrosenzweig (talk) 08:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Oil Discoveries

Besides drilling, what methods do oil companies use to discover if there is oil in a particular piece or patch of land? Is there any specific machines that will detect if there is oil underground, how does that work? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.141.254.37 (talk) 20:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe start with Hydrocarbon exploration and come back if you need more. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:56, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

There are technologies they use to get an idea, perhaps most importantly reflection seismology, but companies usually aren't sure until they actually drill a well into the formation and see if oil comes out of it. TastyCakes (talk) 22:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Identifying a submarine

The library of congress identifies this as a Russian submarine. However it looks very much like a British British B class submarine going by List of Soviet and Russian submarine classes the closest Russian design Russian submarine Delfin but that’s not a very close match (design is clearly pre WW1 since it is built firmly along Holland submarine lines). In addition the shape in the background looks suspiciously like one of the Sea Forts in the Solent. What do people think?©Geni 22:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I can't comment on the submarine, but I sail in the Solent occasionally and the three objects in the background do look a lot like the forts. Note that it's not impossible that a pre-Revolutionary Russian submarine might have been visiting Britain. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 22:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Considering that they look so similar and the picture of the British B class has B4 on it whereas yous looks like it has B6 on it near the front it then yes I'd say yot're right. Dmcq (talk) 14:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The photo (right) of HMS B6 comes from WikiCommons and is identical to the photo at the Library of Congress. Our copy of the photo is named "HMS B6 in the solent" (which is where Horse Sand Fort is - and that's clearly the sea fort in the photo). We also have photos of sister submarines: HMS B2, HMS B4 and HMS B11 - and they all look identical except for the numbers painted onto them in the same style as the '6' in the photo. We know the complete history of HMS B6 and for sure she was never bought/borrowed/stolen/captured by the Russians - she served for a few years in the Mediterranean - eventually being sold to Italy and converted to a surface-only vessel due to lack of spare parts before being sold for scrap to some guy in Malta. So I'd say it was close to 100% certain that the LoC has it wrong - and Wikipedia has it 100% right! SteveBaker (talk) 04:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Too bad it's not "the national media repository that anyone can edit". --Sean 15:18, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I put the image on commons under that name so that alone doesn't add anything more than my opening comment. On the other hand it appears we have fairly solid agreement that those are the sea forts. Heh since there are 3 in the picture it should be posible to work out where it was taken pretty accurately.©Geni 18:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah - OK. But regardless of that - look at the photos on HMS B2, HMS B4 and HMS B11. They are very clearly the exact same model of submarine. SteveBaker (talk) 22:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

November 3

Weight-loss based weight loss plan

My idea for a weight-loss plan is simple. First, eat a good meal, including a beverage (so you're not dehydrated) and then weigh yourself. Let's say you weigh 200 pounds. Then, say, you want to lose 1/2 pound a day. So the first day, nothing goes in your piehole until your weight drops below 199.5 pounds. If you weigh yourself and the scale shows, let's say, 199.2, then you can have 0.3 pounds of food and/or drink, but no more. If you want more, you have to lose some weight (through urine, feces, sweat, whatever) first.

This idea is so incredibly obvious I'm surprised I haven't heard of it before. Can anyone find any references to it, or is this original with me? 76.210.248.64 (talk) 00:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

No one in the history of the universe has come up with this idea until now. It needs a name. Let's call it a "starvation diet". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Your idea won't work. Your body weight isn't based solely on the weight of the food that you consume. You're completely ignoring calories and a balanced diet. Let's say that you can eat that 0.3 pounds of food. There are many things that you could eat but having .3 lbs of chocolate isn't the same nutritionally as having .3 lbs of lettuce. Dismas|^(talk) 01:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Well strictly speaking it will work. Conservation of mass is trivially true. What you mean to say is that if one only looks at the mass of food being eaten then one is unlikely to maintain a healthy diet that provides an appropriate number of calories, vitamins, and minerals, etc. Dragons flight (talk) 20:41, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

"Your body weight isn't based solely on the weight of the food that you consume." Oh? Then, what is it based on? Doesn't delta weight for all practical purposes equal eat minus excrete? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.210.248.64 (talk) 01:08, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I think Dismal Dismas (the "|" threw me) is saying that it depends on where the weight is. If it's fat, it can be burned off over time. But if it's muscle, it would be harder (and very possibly undesirable) to burn it off. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Granted, I'm at work but I'm not dismal about it... Dismas|^(talk) 02:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Think of it this way: Is a pound of celery the same as a pound of lard? Is a pound of water going to have the same affect on your weight as a pound of Coca-Cola? (The answer in both cases is noooo.) Delta weight is more like energy consumed minus energy burned. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:01, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's basically the point I was trying to get across. If you drink a pound of water, it's quite easy to loose that water weight. But if you eat fatty foods then it's not as easy to lose it. Or, if you want more of an apples to apples comparison, consider a pound of water compared to a pound of beer. They're both liquids but quite a bit different when it comes to caloric intake. Dismas|^(talk) 02:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The starvation diet idea that you have works, in that you lose pounds. But if you're remotely worried about losing muscle mass, then I'd recommend against it (or if you're worried about, you know, being healthy as well). If you want diet ideas (which are bad ideas in the first place unless you gained weight through some temporary situation, otherwise why will temporary dietary changes have any long term effect on a stable pattern of excess calories?), then here goes one: find your BMR, modify based on your energetic needs. Then eat ~200 less calories than that total and combine with exercise for 30 minutes a day. Standard advice for a standard problem.--droptone (talk) 13:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The main problem with any diet is that you end up putting the weight back on as soon as you come off the diet. You need to change your whole lifestyle and maintain a diet and exercise regime that you can keep to for the rest of your life. Anything which means you are hungry all the time is not sustainable. --Tango (talk) 16:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd take issue with your last sentence, I've known models tolerate being hungry most of the time for years on end. It is something that people can learn to accept for long durations. Whether those people are happy or healthy is an important additional question, but some people do basically adopt hunger as their lifestyle. Dragons flight (talk) 20:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, diets can be useful. If someone is overweight, a diet plus exercise can be used until they are back to normal weight. Then normal eating plus exercise will keep them at normal weight. If the person was reasonably active all along but overweight due to excessive eating then the temporary diet (to fall back to normal weight) followed by normal eating could also work. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if you would be thirsty a lot of the time, as solids build up inside you so you'd be losing water to keep the weight the same. The thing with diets is to avoid putting on weight when you stop. Better to keep a food diary - write down the estimated calories of everything you eat. Decide on a daily limit. You will soon realise that eating more fruit and veg is the way to go, and fats are to be avoided apart from small amounts of for example Canola oil as a dressing. Hopefully you will gradually re-educate your body to eat healthily - it works with me. 92.26.163.34 (talk) 23:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Water chemistry in Berkeley, CA

Hi all, I was wondering if anybody knew what the water coming from the municipal source in Berkeley was like, chemically speaking. I don't see a lot of deposits on the showerheads and stuff, so it must be pretty soft. Thanks for the help!169.229.76.114 (talk) 04:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

When I lived in Berkeley, most domestic water was supplied by the East Bay Municipal Utility District ("East Bay MUD"), a creation of the 1920's progressive reform era in California. The Wikipedia article says that East Bay MUD's source is the Pardee Dam (built in 1929) along the Mokelumne River in Northern California. Perhaps EBMUD's web site can tell you more about the water quality. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:55, 3 November 2009 (UTC) ¶ See, for example, Water Quality (EBMUD) —— Shakescene (talk) 04:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC) ¶ And further investigation shows that the Orinda reservoir, which serves Berkeley, like almost all of EBMUD's other sources, has very low levels of almost all the significant contaminants: EBMUD 2008 Water Quality Report (PDF). I'm sure a little further probing can tell you about other elements that aren't harmful to human health but could still affect taste, corrosion, etc. The water in San Francisco and the near East Bay (piped in from isolated rural points along the Sierra Nevada) was generally considered by their residents to be pretty good when I lived in Berkeley and Oakland from the mid-1960's to the early 1990's. —— Shakescene (talk) 05:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Very strange things they drink at Berkeley these days . . . DOR (HK) (talk) 08:31, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Chemically speaking it is like H₂O. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:50, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Vague reference to previous section: If you're on a diet, stay away from "heavy water".

Illegal Advice

I just came across this blog http://animeharvester.blogspot.com/ and by the looks of it, its author will be giving advice on how to illegally download stuff from the internet (presumably using torrents. Is there any way to block or ban this user/ author? 117.194.225.66 (talk) 09:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

If you think a blog is breaking Blogger's content policy, then you can flag it using the flag icon at the very top of the blog page or by filling out the form linked on the policy page. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The copyright owner could pursue their legal right by identifying the jurisdiction under which the torrent tracker operates and presenting a compensation claim that the tracker operator has caused them a loss that is quantifiable financially. This type of claim is difficult. See the defiant stance here of a torrent operator. ISP's generally deny responsibility for material they convey and torrent distribution per se is not illegal. France has introduced legislation by which ISP's can be held responsible.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

In the US, the copyright owner can get the host (blogspot, or an ISP) to take it down (DMCA takedown requests). If the host complies, then they have no liability themselves (the "safe-harbor" clause). This makes some sense. If ISPs are responsible for user actions, users get a lot less freedom, and our ISPs suddenly become interested in law enforcement, which is not necessarily a good thing—in such cases, ISPs will err on the side of conservatism regarding copyrights, which is not necessarily good for users of copyrighted material (consider where Wikipedia would be if the copyright status of its contents was enforced by its webhost). On the other hand, of course, the DMCA approach just makes copyright protection a game of whac-a-mole, and one can see the economic consequences of that pretty clearly as well. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

In general it's unlikely that you'll get anyone banned or prosecuted for something you think they may do in the future, and maybe you should wait to see what they are actually doing before you seek advice, as otherwise it will be purely speculation. --Lesleyhood (talk) 15:56, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and I would add that telling someone generally how to pirate software is probably not a violation of any laws, nor necessarily should it be. I could tell you how to use a torrent site to find pirated movies—it is almost certainly not illegal for me to do that (in my jurisdiction, anyway), though one may dislike the ethics or morals of it. There's of course a fine line between enabling a crime and describing it, but if we outlawed everything that described how to commit crimes, we'd be impinging on quite a lot of speech. (Note that this is not the same thing at all as violating the terms of service on a private site.) --Mr.98 (talk) 23:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Space tourism

How much money will it cost to visit space? Will it require any special fitness? Who should I contact for this? Is there any special tax I need to pay to visit space? --USAndrew1980 (talk) 10:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

See Space Tourism. The first few people paid around $20m (USD) apparently, I suspect the costs have come down a bit but it's still incredibly expensive. Virgin the Richard Branson firm have Virgin Galactic, but there's also the article Private spaceflight too. You basically need to be very rich (at least for now). Hopefully in my lifetime (i'm mid 20s) it'll be cheap enough for me to give it a whirl - but i'd not want to spend huge amounnts. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:56, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

There's always the option to become skilled at something (flight crew, medical, cook, concierge, masseuse, housekeeping) and be part of the staff, especially in the future when "space hotels" or "space luxury liners" are in service. Becoming very skilled might be easier than becoming very rich. A multiple skill set could be useful. Edison (talk) 14:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Bigelow Aerospace has been in the news recently just for stating that their Space hotel is still on schedule. Whether it actually succeeds and what the pricing will be are still big questions Rmhermen (talk) 15:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually the price has gone up to about US$30m due to the devaluation of the dollar. The starting price for Virgin Galactic trips (which are just suborbital - you spend a few minutes in space rather than a week that previous space tourists have spent on the ISS) is US$200,000, so much more affordable but still only in reach of the rich. That price ought to come down after the first year or two of flights, though. --Tango (talk) 16:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The price of eggs

I know that flu vaccines are grown on chicken eggs. Due to the increase in the amount of flu vaccine production, is there a corresponding decrease in the number of eggs available for consumption, and therefore an increase in the price of eggs? 99.166.95.142 (talk) 16:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The eggs themselves haven't been part of the normal food egg production chain, as flu vaccine is grown in fertilised chicken eggs (and almost no-one eats those). They're produced, and fertilised, to order. Now you could say that those chickens could be producing food eggs, and if that's true then using them for vaccine would raise the price of eggs. But this article says people in the developed world eat on average 226 eggs per year (I guess that includes all the eggy ingredients used in packaged foods) and vaccine producer Glaxo-Smith-Kline says that one dose needs one or two eggs. So that's a reduction in theoretical egg availability by around 1%, so not really very much. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 17:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, great answer. Are the eggs artificially fertilized? 99.166.95.142 (talk) 17:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I think they're done the old fashioned way, as a proper embryo needs to form, and doing intra-chicken AI seems like a bunch of work when you can outsource it to a professional for free. Incidentally my numbers above assume 100% of people get the jab, when seasonal jabs are something like 20% and maybe H5N1 swineflu will be ~40% -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 17:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

H1N1. H5N1 is the type of Influenza A that the recent bird flu scare (which everyone has now forgotten about) was part of. --Tango (talk) 17:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The price of a eggs might go down with extra demand because production can be increased easily so some overheads per egg can be reduced. An interesting question which prices go up or down with demand. Dmcq (talk) 17:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually in my experience, in the US anyways, the egg prices rise in the winter time, because if eggs freeze they most often break. This increases the cost of getting salable eggs onto the store shelf, and of course that cost increase is passed on to the consumer. Googlemeister (talk) 19:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

And hen laying slows down then too any way. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I know this! There are farms that specialize in providing fertilized eggs to vaccine manufacturers. They usually choose the breed solely by the number of eggs produced; criteria like size, shape, uniformity, size of yolk, etc. are less important. The amount of eggs needed for vaccine production therefore has nothing to do with the availability of eggs to the consumer - the farms know in advance to raise more hens if a bad flu season is expected. And yes, fertilization is natural. --NellieBly (talk) 08:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Best of 7 postseason series

How many have been tied 1-1, 2-2, and 3-3 (in the same series) in all sports? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.29.109 (talk) 19:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Do curling and caber count? PhGustaf (talk) 20:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll research the baseball when I get home. I actually have a list of that info somewhere. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:20, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, here it is for Major League Baseball. The answer to OP's specific question is TWICE: 1962 and 1997. No guarantee or warranty in the following list, but this is how I have it. Someone else will have to research the NBA and NHL. There have been 104 World Series prior to this year's (1903,1905-1994,1996-2008) which of course isn't over yet, but will go at least 6 games. Of those 104, 32 have gone the distance, i.e. have been decided in the final possible game. All of those 32 were the best-4-of-7 variety. 4 Series (1903,1919-21) were best-5-of-9, but none went the limit. So 32 of 100 have gone 7 games. There are 20 possible patterns for the wins and losses, but not all the possible permutations have occurred:

W-W-L-W-L-L-W 1972 OAK/CIN

W-W-L-L-W-L-W 1947 NYY/BKN

W-W-L-L-L-W-W 1987 MIN/STL, 1991 MIN/ATL, 2001 AZ/NYY

W-L-W-W-L-L-W 1967 STL/BOS

W-L-W-L-W-L-W 1962 NYY/SFG, 1997 FLA/CLE

W-L-W-L-L-W-W 1934 STL/DET, 1973 OAK/NYM

W-L-L-W-W-L-W 1960 PIT/NYY, 1964 STL/NYY

L-W-W-L-L-W-W 1926 STL/NYY, 2002 ANA/SFG, 1982 STL/MIL

L-W-W-L-W-L-W 1931 STL/PHIA, 1975 CIN/BOS

L-W-L-W-W-L-W 1957 MIL/NYY

L-W-L-W-L-W-W 1924 WAS/NYG, 1940 CIN/DET, 1946 STLC/BOSR, 1952 NYY/BKN

L-W-L-L-W-W-W 1925 PIT/WAS, 1968 DET/STL, 1979 PIT/BAL

L-L-W-W-W-L-W 1955 BKN/NYY, 1956 NYY/BKN, 1965 LA/MIN, 1971 PIT/BAL

L-L-W-W-L-W-W 1986 NYM/BOS

L-L-W-L-W-W-W 1958 NYY/MIL, 1985 KC/STL

For 2009, there are these possible outcomes for the winners: PHI W-L-L-L-W-W-W; and NYY L-W-W-W-L-W or L-W-W-W-L-L-W. The possible 7-game patterns have not happened before. The 6-game pattern has occurred a number of times. 02:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

For the NHL it has only happened once, since they introduced the best-of-seven series in 1939. Seven-game series have happened only 15 times:

1942 - Detroit, Detroit, Detroit, Toronto, Toronto, Toronto, Toronto

1945 - Toronto, Toronto, Toronto, Detroit, Detroit, Detroit, Toronto

1950 - Detroit, New York, Detroit, New York, New York, Detroit, Detroit

1954 - Detroit, Montreal, Detroit, Detroit, Montreal, Montreal, Detroit

1955 - Detroit, Detroit, Montreal, Montreal, Detroit, Montreal, Detroit

1964 - Toronto, Detroit, Detroit, Toronto, Detroit, Toronto, Toronto

1965 - Montreal, Montreal, Chicago, Chicago, Montreal, Chicago, Montreal

1971 - Chicago, Chicago, Montreal, Montreal, Chicago, Montreal, Montreal

1987 - Edmonton, Edmonton, Philadelphia, Edmonton, Philadelphia, Philadelphia, Edmonton

1994 - Vancouver, New York, New York, New York, Vancouver, Vancouver, New York

2001 - Colorado, New Jersey, Colorado, New Jersey, New Jersey, Colorado, Colorado

2003 - New Jersey, New Jersey, Anaheim, Anaheim, New Jersey, Anaheim, New Jersey

2004 - Calgary, Tampa Bay, Calgary, Tampa Bay, Calgary, Tampa Bay, Tampa Bay

2006 - Carolina, Carolina, Edmonton, Carolina, Edmonton, Edmonton, Carolina

2009 - Detroit, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh

Calgary was robbed in 2004! Adam Bishop (talk) 03:53, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Er, wait, aren't we misunderstanding the question? There are several more times that this has happened in our lists, Baseball Bugs. I don't think the OP specifically meant WLWLWLW. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, he said tied 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 in the same series. So you're right, for example it could go W-L-L-W-W-L-W (which I chose randomly, and happens to match 1960 and 1964). I already gave the list, so one could look through it and find the ones that fit. I was thinking W-L-W-L-W-L-W because it's kind of the "perfect" case of that scenario. In general, it has to start W-L (or L-W from the other team's viewpoint), and from Game 2 onward, there can't be any more than 2 consecutive wins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Revised to include all possible 1-1 then 2-2 then 3-3 situations in same Series:

W-L-W-L-W-L-W 1962 NYY/SFG, 1997 FLA/CLE

W-L-W-L-L-W-W 1934 STL/DET, 1973 OAK/NYM

W-L-L-W-W-L-W 1960 PIT/NYY, 1964 STL/NYY

L-W-W-L-L-W-W 1926 STL/NYY, 2002 ANA/SFG, 1982 STL/MIL

L-W-W-L-W-L-W 1931 STL/PHIA, 1975 CIN/BOS

L-W-L-W-W-L-W 1957 MIL/NYY

L-W-L-W-L-W-W 1924 WAS/NYG, 1940 CIN/DET, 1946 STLC/BOSR, 1952 NYY/BKN

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Right, so in the NHL, in addition to 2004, it has also happened in 1950, 1964, and 2001. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Unusual rainbow

To Whom It May Concern: I was travelling in the southern central states of United States and I noticed a short vertical rainbow appeared. This rainbow did not have any circular angle to at all. It was as if the rainbow had lost the top and bottom of the rainbow. The weather conditions that day were some showers & partly sunny. This rainbow appeared about 60 degrees off the horizon in bright sunny clouds that have some dark clouds in the background. I have research for quite some time and been unable to found someone that has seen this image before. I have several questions, if someone would like to interact, from scientific, to religious, or mythology.

Thanks, Joe Broadus e-mail address deleted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.163.134.205 (talk) 19:34, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Could it have been a sun dog or halo? --Tango (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Or a Circumhorizontal arc? --Tango (talk) 19:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the article Rainbow ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I can recommend the Atmosperic Optics website. Its sections on rainbows and ice halos contains descriptions and images of most common and not-so-common effects of this kind, along with explanations of how they are created, and may help you identify what you saw if the above links do not. Karenjc 20:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I have seen the sort of partial rainbow that you describe. I don't think it's so very unusual. Marco polo (talk) 21:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

In some places they are fairly common. The OP didn't say it was unusual, I did - the OP didn't give a header so I came up with one without giving it much thought. --Tango (talk) 23:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I saw one of these today, they're fairly common. I think they're just rainbows with te top covered by clouds so it looks almost verticle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.251.238.46 (talk) 17:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

has HM The Queen ever wore a hard hat?

anyone got pictures?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8340989.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.102.120 (talk) 20:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Apparently this film clip shows her down a coal mine, wearing a hard hat, although it's not working at the moment. Warofdreams talk 21:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

In what way is her hat 'not working'? Is it the light? --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 08:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

http://www.geevor.com/media/images/Geevor%20Underground/the%20queens%20visit.jpg Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 22:02, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

HM Princess Elizabeth as she then was worked as an army mechanic during WWII. I would be surprised if she didn't wear a hard hat at some point during that. DJ Clayworth (talk) 23:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Go on, I'll be the one to say it. Considering the crown is made of gold, I would hazard a guess that that was a pretty hard hat. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Gold is actually a very soft metal. I'd take a steel hard hat over a gold one if I had to do real work in it! --Mr.98 (talk) 00:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd put my money on it being harder than this ! --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 16:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The purple hat in that first clip, matching her coat, is more typical of what she wears in public. The crown is only for special occasions, yes? But note the shape of that hat. Remind you of anything? How about "Oddjob"? That hat could in fact be a deadly weapon, just in case HRH gets into a scrape of some kind. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

And I like the photo of her in the white hard-hat, reading a sign that says "Victory Shaft". Now I'm hearing her say, "Mr. Prime Minister, we must not allow a Victory Shaft gap!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Hard hats in WWII? I don't think Health and Safety had been invented then. Richard Avery (talk) 18:47, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Hard hats as we know them were developed around WWI, and were first used extensively in construction of the Golden Gate Bridge in the 1930s. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Her Majesty was working on the Golden Gate Bridge was she? I was dryly referring to the UK and her war time employment. Richard Avery (talk) 08:26, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

According to her article, she only joined the Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service in 1945, so there wasn't much of the war left. Plus, she was a a driver and mechanic - two professions now that even with health & safety around don't need a hard-hat. It's not as if she was deployed to the front at all. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 09:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I've seen pictures of her wearing a hard hat riding ,it's just not quite the same sort of hard hat..hotclaws 13:18, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

non-manufacturing cost and product cost

generally non-manufacturing cost is not included in product cost. are there any situations where it is appropriate to include non-manufacturing cost in product cost? my friends say there are but i can't think of any yet! Please help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.4.190.179 (talk) 20:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not an accountant, but some companies, particularly small ones, may organize their books so that expenses not directly related to the manufacturing cost of a product, like office rent and other overhead, is included in "product cost". Does that help at all? I mean, if you're not going to be audited by some outside group, a business can organize its accounting in whatever way it wants. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The assertion that “generally non-manufacturing cost is not included in product cost” might be applicable in some accounting, but not as a general rule. The cost of a product is the price the seller pays the buyer. The cost of production, however, includes things such as capital and labor. While it is certainly possible for a seller to agree to sell a product / service for less than the cost of production, this is generally a special case such as dumping or a loss leader. DOR (HK) (talk) 04:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

November 4

Racetrack for trains?

Around 50km east of Prague, near the town of Cerhenice, there is a large oval of rail track (centered at 50°05′54″N 50°05′50″E) approx 5 km by 2.8 km. What is it for - a racetrack for trains? Astronaut (talk) 00:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

It's a test track for railway rolling stock. See Velim railway test circuit. Grutness...wha? 00:32, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

(ec) What you're looking at is Železniční zkušební okruh u Velimi — the Velim railway test circuit. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Cool! Thanks. Astronaut (talk) 04:48, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

An oval racetrack for trains probably wouldn't work out that well, as it would give an automatic advantage to the one on the inside. Would need two parallel sets of straight tracks, set up like with a quarter horse race or a drag race, except it would probably take a pair of locomotives a lot longer to go from 0 to 60. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:42, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

You could do an oval track with crossovers, such as is done in speed skating. — Michael J 22:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

That would undoubtedly add an element of intrigue. But why stop there? Why not have a locomotive version of "demolition derby"? Jim McKay would have been right there, in the old days. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible to sue US patent office?

Is it possible to sue US patent office for giving a patent to someone, if that thing is so obvious and it is part of everyday use in other countries (say, India) ? --V4vijayakumar (talk) 05:16, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

You can sue anyone you want to. That doesn't mean you'll win. What object are you referring to specifically? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I am not going to sue anyone. Still this is disturbing what they do. for example, turmeric root, by products from neem tree, some rice verities (basmati), etc. I am not sure, if neem is patented then, no one can use neem stick to brush their teeth?! --V4vijayakumar (talk) 10:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Suits claiming that a patent is invalid, for reasons such as the original poster described, are certainly possible in the US. I don't know if the patent office or the patent holder would be the defendant. See Honeywell v. Sperry Rand for a very important example of such a case, although this was a very complex case and should not be considered a typical example. --Anonymous, 06:03 UTC, November 4, 2009.

See this article for a highly relevant example of the above. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 06:08, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

There are procedures in place at the patent office to challenge a patent application on grounds such as obviousness and similarity to existing products. If you have a beef with a patent that's already been granted, you can sue the patent holder in U.S. federal court and ask the court to rule the patent invalid on those same grounds. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 06:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Does the U.S. Patent office take into account the inventions that exist offshore but not within the U.S., when someone files for a patent? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Before granting a patent, patent offices search prior art that was disclosed before the invention occurred (in the United States) or before the filing date (in the rest of the world).Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:18, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

You don't file against the patent office, you file against the patent holder (or they file against you). --Mr.98 (talk) 13:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, but in Law 101 they tell you, "Always sue everybody", which means you should name the patent office as well, and let the court decide who the appropriate parties to the suit are. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I am reasonably sure you cannot name the patent office in a suit about the validity of a patent, but I don't actually know that for a fact. It would strike me as the sort of thing they would insist being in their legislation, though, to avoid being mired in lawsuits constantly. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:31, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Sovereign immunity. You can only sue the US Federal government for causes expressly anticipated and allowed under federal law (mostly the Federal Tort Claims Act, but not exclusively). Dragons flight (talk) 16:37, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The OP's lawyer would advise him on that point, presumably. I'd still like to know what specific invention the OP is talking about. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Oftentimes the media misinterprets a patent; for example there may be a patent on a specific novel use of tumeric root or a specific hybrid variety of the tumeric plant. A wild natural product can in no way be patented, but a use or production method CAN be. However, people often confuse these differences; like the question we had on these desks a few days ago about someone patenting a certain shade of pink. What was actually patented was the use of a certain shade of pink in a specific application, namely in psychological control of prisoners. However, the media often will say something outrageous like "someone owns the patent on the color pink" --Jayron32 21:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, and checking the question again concurs with my memory, no one ever found any evidence for a patent for the use of pink (or any colour) for any purpose. In the case of the specific question, at least one editor pointed out extensive prior art would suggest it unlikely Nil Einne (talk) 13:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Uses of Pink noise are in several patents. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Emailing

Why are you out of control? I can't find a way other than this to email you inspite of all the "Contact Us" stuff. Make it simple to be contacted and then verify the writer. You're vice versa and darned near impossible to send an email to. Check it for yourself. The computer gurus will ruin you with all their little ways to protect you from us BIG BAD people. Get real. Computer gurus are going to stifle communications altogether one day because they fear everything and everybody and think that imperfect computers will save the world. Far from it. Too many games one of these Dungeons and Dragons by computer gurus make them scared of their own shadows. Get simple, but for goodness sake, make things simple for the sake of communications.Make it easy to email you. Are you crazy with all this click this and click that to pages that don't even have a way to send you an email withou clicking this and clicking that again, ad infinitum?? Check your own website out! I've got 25 years of management experience and 3 degrees, yet your website keeps me confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Struckdown (talk • contribs) 14:31, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Title inserted, duplicate post struck. 131.111.248.99 (talk) 14:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

What exactly do you want to contact Wikipedia about ? Who do you want to contact - a specific Wikipidea editor, the Wikipedia Foundation, or someone else ? Does you query fit any of the topics at Wikipedia:Contact us ? Gandalf61 (talk) 14:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

<edit conflict> Even with your three degrees and years of management experience, your communication skills have let you down too. Do you wish to learn how to email Wikipedia or Wikipedians? --Dweller (talk) 14:54, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

If you want to contact Wikipedia, there are usually better ways than email, depending what you want to contact people about. Usually, you'll need to edit a project page, like you did to post here.

If there's a problem with an article, try the discussion page (in the tab at the top of the article).

If you really do need to email because there is a problem in an article about you or about someone you represent, then I recommend you read this guidance and possibly send a plain text email to info-en-q@wikimedia.org. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:20, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I think you may misunderstand how Wikipedia works. There is no one to e-mail—it is not "run" by any one person. Every page is editable by just about anyone. There are thousands of "authors" of the site. If you have a need to talk about a particular page, click the "Discussion" link at the top of the page in question, then click "new section", then add your comment/question (like you did to post this question). --Mr.98 (talk) 15:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Well there are places to contact about copyright violation or problems with biographical articles or other legal type matters. But that is all on the contact us page. Need to be more specificx about the p;roblem. If your problem isn't legal then you're in the same boat as the rest of us and can edit the page yourself. May I direct you to the WP:Five pillars before you start editing. Dmcq (talk) 16:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree with the perceived complaint of the OP, that the contact page could be improved, perhaps by better explaining the necessity and reasons why a person wishing to contact wikipedia has to do a job of working out the best contact point. On the one hand, it is common enough to find companies seeking to direct a would-be correspondent to an appropriate FAQ or web form and which do not provide email addresses; on the other plenty enough other website do provide a simple email address within their contact page. I can see why a person might stumble upon their failure easily to discover a wikipedia email address, not least if their issue is not covered by the string of For x see y instructions. The remainder of ridiculous ad hominem attacks, as normal, say more about the writer than the object of their attack. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the problems with the contact us page, I don't see any mention of the RD on it. It is linked indirectly from Find more about a specific fact (which is linked to WP:Questions) and when linking has the comment "The Reference Desk is like a library reference desk". And of course the name "Reference desk" should also give a hint to anyone who thinks about it, as well as this sentence very early on in WP:RD "The Wikipedia reference desk works like a library reference desk" that this isn't the right place to ask such a question. I say all this primarily because of all the places you could ask a question of this sort on wikipedia, the RD is probably one of the worst. P.S. And as for the contact page, while I'm not saying it can't be improved I would say the very big red statement "Wikipedia has no editorial board" followed by "Revisions are not reviewed before they appear on the site. Content is not the result of an editorial decision by the Wikimedia Foundation or its staff" and two sentences later "Wikipedia is written, edited, maintained, and almost completely operated by volunteers from around the world" should give people with a decent level of English an idea of why there's no simple email address. Nil Einne (talk) 13:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Ford trivia

Is 6900 the original warranty number of Ford motor co.? Bellanine —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bellanine (talk • contribs) 15:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

You might have to give us more to go on. Old Fords may have a "warranty number" which is a precursor of the Vehicle Identification Number modern cars have, but what is the "warranty number" of the company, and why do you think it's 6900? FiggyBee (talk) 01:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Early Ford serial numbers started with 18, then 54, then 99A and 1A (see, for example [2]). But I've never heard of people tracking "warranty" numbers. SteveBaker (talk) 01:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Dealing with difficult people !!

I wonder what will i name this "difficult people or difficult situations" but whatever, why do these self boasting,critical,fault finding people so demeaning and put us in a very awkward situations to respond in appropriate manner . are there some traiing courses in dealing with these kind? especially if you just doing the right thing but put us to self analysis if thats really correct what we think is? on the other hand there are people more forgiving, understanding and graceful to even if we have faulted agnist them unknowingly or helplessly and they create a sense of respect and love not to be forgotten.any suggestions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.95.140.188 (talk) 19:03, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Afraid I can't give you any advice on dealing with such people, but to answer one of your questions, yes, there are courses available on this specific subject. My company's internal catalogue of courses available to employees includes one called "Dealing with Different People", which is said to have been renamed from an original title of "Dealing with Difficult People". I haven't taken this course; I may do one day. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 20:16, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Assertiveness training courses may help. Two books I can recommend are: "Dealing with Difficult People" by Roberta Cava (published by Piatkus in the UK), and "Assertiveness at Work" by Ken and Kate Back. You may wish to consider whether it's the people who are difficult, or the situation. --TammyMoet (talk) 21:00, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

And unfortunately there are quite a few article on Wikipedia where you can then test out your skills on the talk page ;-) Dmcq (talk) 22:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Dare I say you could even test out your skills by helping us out on the Reference Desks! :) Grutness...wha? 23:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Difficult Personalities A practical guide to managing the hurtful behaviour of others (and maybe your own!). Published by Choice Books. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Wazz up with market !!

Has the days of recession gone by? has the job market recovered? what about the GDP's relation with us fetching our jobs? what are the indications that the market has recovered after the billion bailout as there seem to be no indication or are we waiting for some other billionaire whooping our money and jobs again.what are the indications that an economy is recovering.too confused. anyone? Seekhle (talk) 19:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Traditionally, stock markets recover about 6 months before the jobs markets. This would indicate that those who invest in the stock market believe that an economic recovery will begin within the next 6 months hence the stock commanding higher prices. Googlemeister (talk) 19:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

We have an extensive article series on the Late-2000s recession. Specific answers to your questions depend heavily (if not exclusively) on where you are and who you ask. — Lomn 19:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there are many different theories about why the stock market has been rising and whether or when we will see a recovery in employment. No one really knows, not even anyone on the Reference Desk. Marco polo (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

There are also come questions about whether this is a "W"-shaped recession or a "U" or "V" or "L"-shaped recession. If it is a "W"-shaped recession, such spikes in stock prices are usually followed by equally large or larger secondary crashes. See Recession shapes for more on this. This data can only really be interpreted in hindsight, so the most honest economist is likely one that says "fucked if I know?" when asked any question. Unfortunately, such economists don't find work too often, so we get 1000 prognosticators, each making equally random guesses as to what will happen next. --Jayron32 21:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

What Jayron and Googlemeister said ... amplified with: Understand that there is no one single measure of the economy, or its strength, or its shape. That said, however, there are many "indicators". Conventional wisdom says that the Stock Market indices are leading indicators, in that they react before the others; and the unemployment rate is a trailing indicator, pretty much the last measure to react (both on the way down and the way up).

Taken together, by the time employment recovers, much money will have already been made in the markets, expecially by those whose job it is to make judgement calls ahead of their peers.

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

You didn't mention which country you're interested in. While the worlds economies are interconnected and most economies are suffering to some extent, there is a wide variance in the extent. For example while this is sometimes called a 'global recession', some countries are not in recession and have never been. The current situation in the job market also varies significantly. Some countries are recovering faster, some stock markets are doing better then others. The level and type of government assistance also varies. My guess would be you're referring to the US or India (athough as far as I'm aware India isn't in recession and haven't been for a long while), but contributors shouldn't have to guess. Nil Einne (talk) 12:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Let me just put it out there that it is possible that some countries will never have a full economic recovery and that their economies and wage income will never return to the peak of 2006 or 2007. This is not a possibility raised by most mainstream economists, but there are reasons to think that the United States and some other countries will not have a full recovery like those that have occurred after other recessions over the last two centuries. Here is a source making the case for an end to growth. Others may respond with conventional arguments for why we have not reached the end of growth in the global economy, and they may be right. But they may also be wrong. Marco polo (talk) 16:13, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Honda and Family Center in Rancho Santa Margarita

When have honda center in RSM off like Avenida Emprasa and Santa Margarita pkwy open. Did it open in 1999 or 2003? i just know when I was a little boy (in 1995/1996) (when the green light was pale and whiter) i doubt ther was the honda and auto center at that long time ago. I've notice the signla lights might have change.--209.129.85.4 (talk) 21:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. The Honda Center is in Anaheim, not RSM. Unless there are two Honda Centers in Orange County, you may be mistaken. And it opened in 1993. It's located here: [3] off of Katella Avenue and the 57 Freeway. --Jayron32 21:47, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The OP is refering to Family Honda, it's a dealership. I don't know when it opened though-- Mad031683 (talk) 00:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

This page says that Family Honda opened in February 2001. Deor (talk) 15:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

this is the place locate, wow is 2/2001 that is amazing. --209.129.85.4 (talk) 20:43, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

copper

how do you patch up copper pipe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Conroy422 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Practically, or theoretically? Theoretically, by soldering a new, slightly larger section of pipe over the top. Practically, by getting someone who knows what they're doing to do it. FiggyBee (talk) 00:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.  :) -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

This just went into my quotes page. --Ouro (blah blah) 10:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

By cutting out the damaged section and inserting a new piece. Soldering will be the most reliable; as a beginner I'd suggest you choose solder-ring fittings rather than end feed. Make sure you clean the pipe well both mechanically (abrasive pad or steel wool) and chemically (with flux). (Incidentally, make sure you wipe away excess flux once the joint is done, otherwise it encourages ugly green corrosion on the pipe.) If you don't fancy soldering you could use compression fittings requiring only a spanner to fit; these will be more prone to leaking and look amateurish, but in my local B&Q they do sell kits of a short length of pipe and a pair of straight fittings for this very purpose. Whether solder or compression, if your pipe is held firmly in situ, you will need at least one and maybe both of the fittings to be a "slip coupling". This means it can slide all the way onto the pipe to let you fit the replacement section in place; without slip couplings you have to pull the cut ends of the pipe away from each other and that may not be possible.

This stuff isn't rocket science; by all means "get someone know knows what they're doing" if you prefer, but if you want to do it yourself you can. Probably worth googling up a longer explanation than mine on how to use solder fittings if you're not sure about them - they rarely have instructions on the packet. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 08:29, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Soldering is difficult if you're not used to it. You really have to get the pipe super-clean and shiney - and the heat has to be just right to melt the solder all the way around. What's really bad is if you leave a tiny pinhole gap. You think you fixed it so you turn the water back on - see the jet of water (or the drips) and your heart sinks. The problem is that now the pipe is full of water and copper conducts heat quite well - so it's difficult to get the solder hot enough to melt again so it'll flow back into that gap because even with a LOT of heat, all you're doing is boiling the water. It never gets hot enough for the solder to melt and you need a seriously big-assed heat source to fix it afterwards. So if you haven't done it before (and if you had, you wouldn't be asking us!) - you can expect a lot of messing around. It's better to learn with a few bits of scrap pipe - and only try to tackle the repair when you know what to expect and you're pretty sure you'll get it right first time. Hence, I think I'd recommend using threaded pipe fittings for a typical on-off DIY job. SteveBaker (talk) 13:32, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I must have got lucky then - my explanation above was based on a single plumbing job I did recently with about 12 solder-ring elbows in it. That was the first piece of plumbing soldering I've ever done. No leaks, no problems. I've done a few jobs with compression fittings, and always had difficulty getting all the joints to seal without weeping. Some jobs absolutely require one approach or the other, but where either could be used I'll be picking solder-ring in future. I did suggest compression as an option to the OP though, and there'd be nothing wrong with him choosing that option. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 22:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Not so easy with lead-free solder; I recommend you practice a bit before going live. Google how to solder copper pipe for some decent how-tos and videos. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 13:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC) ^{(former rocket technician)}

You could also try a pipe repair clamp/sleeve clamp that fits over and around the leak[4][5], or plumber's epoxy to mend a leaking joint.[6] Replacing the section of pipe is the best long-term solution. --Lesleyhood (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeesh, most of that looks like a horrible bodge - duct tape, FFS? The dedicated clamp at [7] looks like the least-bad option, but should really only be regarded as temporary. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 19:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

November 5

Sources of news from Germany - in English

I am looking for an English language website, newspaper or other source which reports domestic news stories from Germany. I'm talking about general interest stories such as politics, crime, entertainment, sport and so on. There's a few stories on the BBC website but nothing very much. Does such a thing exist? Many thanks. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 00:26, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Deutsche Welle was the first thing that came to mind, and Der Spiegel has an English section. It doesn't seem from a cursory search that there is an English language German Daily newspaper, but I didn't try too hard. :) FiggyBee (talk) 00:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

That Deutsche Welle site is great, exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Time was when the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung had an English site (or at least English pages on its home site), but I think those days passed a few years ago. —— Shakescene (talk) 01:07, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Hotels policy

Can I book and use a hotel room in the United States if I am exactly twenty years old and I am not a US citizen? In particular I am asking about hotels in Washington, D.C. and the following states: Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut. Thank you. --88.203.248.164 (talk) 01:43, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Is there something which makes you think you couldn't? --Tango (talk) 01:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah, having done some research apparently some hotels don't let under 18's 21's stay because it's too difficult to regulate the minibars. That isn't universal, though - many seem to set the limit at 18 (younger than that would cause problems with credit - you would probably have to pay cash in advance). --Tango (talk) 01:55, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

But the person is saying they are 20 years old. Bus stop (talk) 02:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I typed the wrong number - corrected now! --Tango (talk) 02:38, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Many actually require credit cards no matter what—for fear of damages. Anyway, I suspect the age policies are set by individual hotels. I would call them ahead of time, if possible. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I thought maybe we had to be 98 to have a drink. Bus stop (talk) 02:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I know that some rental car companies insist on the person being at least 25 but I haven't run into any that have an age limit higher than 18. I could see the argument for 21 if the rooms had a mini-bar. But then, unless you're staying at a high priced hotel, you don't need to worry about having a mini-bar in your room. Dismas|^(talk) 03:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm 19 and I stayed in a variety of hotels in a variety of states this summer. (None of the ones you mentioned, though.) But generally, as long as I had a credit card and acted mature and responsible, nobody had a problem with it. Nobody even checked my age. Still, I recommend checking ahead with the individual hotels to make sure if you're concerned about it. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 05:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and I'm not a US citizen either, although I'm not really sure if that even makes a difference. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 05:47, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

They don't ask about that stuff - what they are mostly interested in is your credit card. They typically won't let you pay by any other means - including cash. SteveBaker (talk) 13:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

If the minibar is an issue, the OP can always ask the hotel to empty or remove it, or to allocate a room without one. This is quite a common request, one made by people with children, and people who (for one reason or another) aren't comfortable with alcohol in their room. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 13:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I do not know about the other states, but I got a hotel room in Maryland several years ago when I was only 17. If it is a rule, it is not universally enforced. Googlemeister (talk) 14:37, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

How did you pay for it? --Tango (talk) 15:31, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Cash. Googlemeister (talk) 15:37, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Some places will let you pay cash—but many won't. It is one of those "call ahead" sort of deals. It's not just minibar; in my experience, what they care about are potential damages, theft, etc., and want some sort of obvious line of insurance ready. (Or maybe that's just how they are around me!) --Mr.98 (talk) 02:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The desire for a way to claim damages explains a limit of 18, the minibar explains a limit of 21 (in that strange land where you can't drink until you are 21...). --Tango (talk) 03:51, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Quotation: 'wishes for truth'

My apologies if there is a more relevant section of the reference desk for this question, but recently I was presented with a situation in which I wanted to use an expression 'trading wishes for truth', which I think must be a quotation, but cannot find it on Google - i.e. searching using no quotation marks produces a plethora of irrelevancies, and with quotation marks, nothing.

Does anyone recall this, or a similar quotation I may be mis-remembering? --Neil (talk) 15:53, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like the kind of idea F A Hayek might have [8], but it doesn't sound like a quote from him, because it's pithy. 81.131.15.153 (talk) 17:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

The phrase "taking your wishes for truth" was posted by a user here. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see now. I had taken it to mean "truth is a goal pursued by the act of trading". 213.122.67.223 (talk) 03:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

You are shrunk to the height of a nickel...

I was reading this article[9] about Google interview questions and this question in particular has sparked my curiousity: "You are shrunk to the height of a nickel and your mass is proportionally reduced so as to maintain your original density. You are then thrown into an empty glass blender. The blades will start moving in 60 seconds. What do you do?" I did an internet search and found a number of answers[10]. But what's the correct answer? 12.165.250.13 (talk) 16:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, to be pedantic, if the blender is truly empty then you will die of thirst in a fairly short time.Froggie34 (talk) 16:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Duck? 99.166.95.142 (talk) 16:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

(After E/C)

I'm not sure there is a "Correct" answer, but the three obvious answers are to either to 1)attempt to press up against the sides of glass so that the blades can't reach you. This will work well for certain designs of blenders, but very poorly for other designs. Or 2) Attempt to jump on the blades and hold on for dear life. This would be tremendously difficult, but if you could center yourself as close to their axis of rotation as possible you'd have a chance. or 3) Get under the blades. They don't always scrape the bottom of the glass. Again, this depends on the design of the blender. APL (talk) 16:44, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Are we reduced in height to the diameter of a nickel, or thickness? I am assuming that it is a US nickel, as dimensions for a Canadian nickel are slightly different I think. Either way, the point is moot since being thrown (presumably by a malevolent regular sized human) would most likely kill the shrunken victim simply from the impact. Googlemeister (talk) 16:44, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Air resistance would be increased - the effect of air resistance is roughly proportional to cross sectional surface area and inversely proportional to mass, so it will be increased by the scale factor. That might well be enough to avoid injury. Also, the strength of bones compared to mass will be greater by the same factor, since the strength of bones is roughly proportional to cross sectional area of the bone. --Tango (talk) 20:18, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

When you are shrunk your mass is reduced by the scale factor cubed, but the cross-sectional area of your muscles (and thus your strength) is reduced by only the square of the scale factor. That means you would be somewhere around 100 times stronger (it terms of strength to weight ratios) than you were before. Therefore, you should have no difficultly jumping out of the blender. --Tango (talk) 16:47, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - that's my answer too - it's an interesting fact that almost all land animals are able to jump vertically by (very roughly) 12 inches...elephants, fleas, humans, mice. OK - maybe there is a spread of a factor of two either way - but it's a pretty solid rule that's a consequence of that mass to muscle-cross-section thing. So there is no reason to imagine that jumping out of the blender would be difficult. (Of course, if the lid is on...) The other thing about blenders is that the blades actually propel the material inside the center of the blender upwards and material around the edges downwards (or vice-versa) so that unchopped material can't lurk on the sides. So I don't think leaning against the sides of the glass will save you - and probably, hiding beneath the blades won't help either. If this is the kind of blender that pushes chopped material up through the center of the mix and pulls it in and under the blades from the sides - then yours best chance could be to hold on to the UNDERSIDE of one of the blades so that the pressure of the circulation would push you tighter against the blade. However, centrifugal forces would still likely spell your doom. My blender has a nut that holds the blade in place - perhaps I can unscrew that and remove the blade? SteveBaker (talk) 15:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Uh, it says right there in the article that there isn't a correct answer. It's to test your imagination. APL (talk) 16:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Hmm.. The 'answers' article has at least one obvious error. It claims that the egg-drop problem requires 101 drops, which is obviously false. So I guess it shouldn't be trusted. APL (talk) 17:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

The page you linked to say it will take 19 drops. Their explanation only proves 19 is an upper bound on the maximum required, although it seems plausible that it is optimal. --Tango (talk) 17:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

It is optimal, unless someone can think of a completely different scheme. You're wanting to divide the 100 floors into sections, dropping an egg at the top floor in each section working up from the bottom section until the egg breaks. Then you are going to start at the bottom of that section with your second egg and work your way up until that breaks. The floor before that egg breaks (or the same floor if you reach the second-to-last in the range and the egg still doesn't break) is the highest non-breaking floor. The highest number of drops required will involve dropping the first egg once in every section, breaking when dropped from floor 100, and then dropping the second egg from every floor in the top range. So the question is, what is the optimum number of sections to minimise the number of drops? Or, in other words, minimise a + 100/a where a is the number of sections. We can picture the function, and the minimum point can be found by differentiating to find a point with a gradient of 0. a + 100a^-1 goes to 1 - 100a^-2 which must equal 0. So, 100a^-2 = 1, a² = 100. So, number of sections (a) is 10, giving a maximum of 19 drops as described. 86.142.224.71 (talk) 23:29, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

You're forgetting that the sections do not have to have equal numbers of floors. You can do it in 14 drops: instead of taking the first egg up ten stories at a time, start on floor 14, then go up 13 stories to floor 27, then 12 stories, then 11, 10, 9, etc. Should it survive, the 11th drop will be from floor 99. If it survives that, make a twelfth drop from floor 100. If it breaks at some point, start with the second egg on the lowest possible floor - so, if the first egg breaks on the second drop, from floor 27, start with the second egg on floor 15. You then have a maximum of 12 drops of the second egg - 14 in total, and the logic holds all the way up - for example, if the egg breaks on the 11th drop, from floor 99, you need only go down to floor 96 to start dropping the second egg; you then have a maximum of 3 drops of this egg - 14 in total, again. Warofdreams talk 00:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

But I think I failed the initiative test - I worked that out, before looking at the comments and noticing other people came up with that answer earlier today! Warofdreams talk 01:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Failed the initiative test, but passed the honesty and sportsmanship tests. --Tango (talk) 01:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Good thinking - you're reducing the number of unused drops when the egg breaks early, so are using the drops more efficiently. Can you prove 14 is optimal, though? --Tango (talk) 01:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

This method is based on triangular numbers, as you could solve the problem for 1 floor in 1 drop, 2 floors in 3 drops, 3 floors in 6 drops, etc. You can solve it for up to 105 floors in 14 drops, but only 91 in 13 drops, so it's the optimal number for this approach - but I can't prove that it would be impossible for a different approach to produce a lower number of drops. Warofdreams talk 01:29, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

That's excellent, but why would you need 3 drops for 2 floors, 6 drops for 3 floors? 86.142.224.71 (talk) 16:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, the other way round - 2 drops for 3 floors, 3 drops for 6 floors, etc. Warofdreams talk 20:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

They've updated it now. It used to say "The number of stories plus one". APL (talk) 17:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Hardly any of this kind of 'trick' interview questions have a correct answer. Interviewers are not looking to find out how well you read the "interview questions" websites, they are looking for how well you can think. For the ones that do have correct answers, if you give it in a way that makes the interviewer think you already knew the answer they will just ask another until they find a way to make you think. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

After awhile you might think that you want to work elsewhere. I can think of any number of wise guy answers that wouldn't get me the job but could be entertaining. For example: Advise the interviewer that the job of turning the switch on has been sent offshore, and now it will be several weeks before it gets done. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Whatever one answers, it should be followed up with that idea that if you do get out of there alive, you convince whomever shrunk you and put you in there to stop wasting time trying to kill you, and get this shrink ray on the market! Think of how much the military would pay for that baby! There's money to be made, gobs of it! --Mr.98 (talk) 02:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Bugs, perhaps that's part of the screening process. To weed out anyone who thinks they're too good to answer a few brain teasers.APL (talk) 23:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Where I work (a computer game company in Austin, TX), we're pretty much continuously recruiting programmers - we ask three of these kinds of questions during the second of three rigorous interviews that all successful candidates undergo. The questions we ask DO have definite, solid answers - and we expect all of the candidates to get the answers right eventually - with enough prodding, hints, suggested solution techniques, etc. But that's definitely not the point. If the candidate kinda looks up into space for 20 seconds - then gives the correct answer - then we're going to immediately ask "How did you arrive at that?" - and then try again with a harder question. If they struggle a bit, that's much more interesting. We're going to suggest lines of inquiry and ask the candidate to work on the white-board so we can see how he or she is getting stuck. The thing we care about is how they get there.

For example - when we interview computer programmers, we sometimes ask: "You have 8 identical-looking billiard balls - one is very slightly heavier than the others - but too slight to be obvious when you pick it up. All you have a balance-beam with two pans which can each hold up to 8 balls. What is the smallest number of weighings that will allow you to determine which ball is the heaviest? This isn't a trick question - the answer involves nothing more than weighing the balls with the balance beam."

Any halfway reasonable candidate will more or less immediately say "3"...put 4 balls in each pan, discard the 4 from the 'light' side - then put two of the remaining balls in each pan, again, discarding the two on the lighter side - then compare the two remaining balls to find the heavy one...3 weighings...EASY! Then we ask what name they might give to the method they used - they'll usually say "Binary search" - or something like that - which is a "programmer thing" that we'd expect them to know. Then we ask them if they can do any better? Is it possible to do this in just two weighings? (Yes, it is) That's when things get interesting - how will they figure this out? It's really quite revealing - you can clearly see who are the "lateral thinkers" - who are the "analysts" and who are the "systematically try all the possibilities until something pans out" types. Sometimes, it's obvious that the candidate knows the answer already because they go straight to the "2" response without first suggesting "3"...so we just pick another question from a list of about 20 or 30 of them until we find one that they haven't heard before.

The point is that it might seem arbitary and unrelated to the task at hand - but it really tells us more about the person than any number of "programming tests" (we save those for the second interview!).

SteveBaker (talk) 15:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

For those who can't work out the "2 weighing" method: First, put 3 balls on each side; if they balance then it's one of the other two, so compare those for the second weighing. If one of the sets of 3 is heavier, then weigh two of those 3 against each other; this will either show which is heavier, or they balance it's the other one. FiggyBee (talk) 19:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Since you obviously knew that, one may ask you the same question but with 64 balls and only 4 weighings allowed. Hint: Steve's balls are round not square. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

What does I "obviously knew that" mean? If you're implying that I heard the puzzle before, or looked up the answer, I didn't. And that's a bit personal about Steve, isn't it? 64 is just 8*8, so you use the same technique but with 8 times as many balls in the first two weighings to narrow it down to 8 (weigh 24 (8*3) vs 24 first time, then 8 vs 8 the second). And yes, I am a computer programmer.FiggyBee (talk) 03:33, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Accountants in Saudi Arabia/Dubai

Hello i want to know the Salaries of ACCA qualified with one year experience in Saudi Arabia and Dubai,Please tell me if some one know.Thank You all of you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.154.9.35 (talk) 16:04, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Sailor of the King 1953

At lunchtime, the 1953 UK/US film "Sailor of the King" was on TV. I thought that the German cruiser "Essen" was likely to be HMS Cumberland plus some dummy turrets; however I have been unable to find any reference to it on the web. There are plenty of notes about the Cumberland's role in the 1956 film "Battle of the River Plate", but nothing about an earlier movie career. Can anyone help?Alansplodge (talk) 17:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

HMS Manxman, according to a few sites.—eric 21:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you're right. I was looking at the three funnels and jumped to the wrong conclusion. Many thanks, I knew someone would know.Alansplodge (talk) 09:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Patriotism or game spirit

My country playing another ina cricket match and absolutely everyone supporting the national team but i am the only irony supporting my favorite team and at the cost of some enimity.does this happen to many? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.122.36.6 (talk) 17:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes. The 2009 World Series ended last night. Pitching for the Phillies was Pedro Martinez. Martinez, due to his prowess while on the Red Sox, is not generally well-liked in New York (he's generally hated, really). New York has a strong Hispanic population, and the Yankees have many Hispanic players, such as Alex Rodriguez, who is Dominican, so the two go together. However, Martinez is also Dominican, so many people often feel torn, and would like to root for Martinez but would also like to root for the Yankees. This was easier when Martinez played for the Mets. The New York Times had an article on this very phenomenon today[11]. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 17:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Have a look at this article about the Cricket test...Alansplodge (talk) 18:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Alex Rodriguez was born in the United States. He is an American. 99.166.95.142 (talk) 17:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Although not really the same thing, it's not uncommon that citizens who are immigrants will support their country of birth rather then where they've made their new life even if they've been living there for many years Nil Einne (talk) 18:38, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Very common. My partner lived the first 22 years of his life in Sri Lanka, then moved to Australia and quickly became an Australian citizen. But whenever Australia plays Sri Lanka, he's happy because he figures his team can't lose. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:54, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

You can root for individuals or you can root for teams, and when or if you decide to resolve that conflict is a function of how much you care. There's a corollary to this issue. I once knew someone who had grown up in New York City in the 1940s and 50s, where the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Giants had a rivalry whose intensity was at least as strong as the Yankees and Red Sox. He was a Giants fan. He moved to the midwest as an adult, and those teams moved to California. He lost interest in the Giants and became a St. Louis Cardinals fan primarily. But he still hated the Dodgers! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Hotels

What are the different kinds of hotels on the bases of star? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.200.102.42 (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I presume they mean, what qualifies a hotel for what star rationg i.e. what differentiates a three star from a four star hotel. The system will differ by country. We have part of an article on this. Fribbler (talk) 19:04, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's so much a "differ by country" approach as a "differ by rater". In many cases (as our article notes), this is one and the same. However, neither the US nor the UK have official national ratings (among many others) and there are numerous cases of hotels self-assigning their star rating. — Lomn 19:17, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

It may differ in other countries, but the German classification has *=tourist, **=standard, ***=comfort, ****=first class and *****=luxury. This site [12] (click the UK button for the en version) lists the relevant criteria. PS: There are also links which describe the paramaters of other European countries. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

In my experience, *=fighting the cockroaches, **=broken furniture, ***=soap in the bathroom, ****=room service, *****=24h service. Astronaut (talk) 01:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Star gazing near London

I was wondering where would be the closest place to London which would have the least amount of light pollution so that you could see stars, in particular it would be nice to see the Milky Way, this is considering a clear sky. MedicRoo (talk) 22:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I am no expert (having not lived in London in decades), but I would suspect the North Downs close to the Kent/Surrey boundary would be one likely place. It's possible there are closer places in the Green Belt. Grutness...wha? 23:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

According to this Google Earth overlay, the area with the least light pollution nearest London is in the Rother District of East Sussex, particularly the area around the village of Iden just north of Rye. According to that map, there is a fair amount of light pollution everywhere in Surrey. Marco polo (talk) 23:38, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Very sad - as a kid I learnt some of my astronomy basics in the Hadley Common/Hadley Wood areas around Barnet. Seems that light pollution has made that impossible now. Mind you, some of that may have been during the big power cuts of the early '70s. Grutness...wha? 23:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Nice overlay. As one who has lived in many different "colours" - I would say the "red" and "orange" are bad, the "yellow" is reasonable (I'm in yellow now). The closest place would depend on where you live now - if you are N to E London, then it might easier to go up M11 or A12 into Suffolk, or maybe a quiet beach (with no street lights) in Essex (ISTR Church of St Peter-on-the-Wall, Bradwell-on-Sea is pretty remote, and very dark).  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 00:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm thinking yellow areas might be more realistic, especially as before I saw the overlay I was thinking I could go on a leisurely jaunt on the bike there, so somewhere like Mark Beech (I'm in the southern side of the city)might be okay.MedicRoo (talk) 00:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Based on Bortle Dark-Sky Scale, you're looking for a sky that's class 1, 2, 3, or maybe 4. According to the map at [13], there are some small parts of Wales and large portions of Scotland that could meet your needs. Alternatively, you could borrow a boat and go about 50 miles out into the North Sea. --Carnildo (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, yes. If you can get a trip to NW Scotland, then the skies are much better than anywhere in England. I stayed at Culnacraig near Achiltibuie a couple of years ago, and when there is no moon, it is very, very dark  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 00:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

This BBC story confirms that parts of Scotland are very dark at night. FWIW, this forest is competing with the Omarama region not far from where I now live for this status. Grutness...wha? 08:39, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Plenty of rural areas of England are a 4 on that scale and you can definitely see the Milky Way. It is more dramatic with darker skies, but the OP just said he wanted to see it. --Tango (talk) 01:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I am from North America, and based on the map of North America from the same source, I think the Milky Way would be very faint if you could see it at all in a sky that's class 4. You'd need to know where to look, and I don't think it would be impressive. In a class 3 sky, it stands out and starts to be impressive. The area of East Sussex that I mentioned is the closest area to London (especially South London) with a class 3 sky. This area also includes places such as Brede and Three Oaks, which can be reached by rail from Hastings or Brighton on the Marshlink Line. Obviously you want a very clear night. Carnildo is right that for a really stunning view of more stars than you've ever seen before set like bright jewels in a black class 1 sky, you will need to travel to the coast of Wales between New Quay and Cardigan, to the Scottish Highlands, or to the area around Boscastle and Tintagel in Cornwall. Marco polo (talk) 02:43, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Our article, Bortle Dark-Sky Scale, says you can see the Milky Way in class 4 skies and that map shows where I am (rural area on the West Sussex/Hampshire border) in yellow and I've certainly seen the Milky Way when we've had really clear skies here. --Tango (talk) 02:57, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

By English standards, none of those places are that near to London. If you can accept fairly bad light pollution, I'd head for a large open space in London that also has the advantage of height - Hampstead Heath comes to mind, but beware its notorious reputation after dark. --Dweller (talk) 12:24, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds pretty hopeless if you can't go far from London, may I suggest the planetarium at Madame Tussaud's? Dmcq (talk) 12:41, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, if you're a student or academic, you can try getting access to UCL's Astronomical Observatory in Mill Hill, London NW7 - it's located right on the northbound A41. --Dweller (talk) 12:53, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

We don't seem to have an article on the observatory - University College London Astronomical Observatory --Dweller (talk) 12:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

And sadly the London Planetarium is no more.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that- that's incredibly sad. It was always one of my favourite places to visit in London. Wonder what they did with their wonderful old Zeiss projector? Grutness...wha? 23:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Near London, I would say it is impossible. I live within 25 km of the centre of London, and from home I cannot see stars below 2nd mag unless I use binoculars. I remember the first time I really noticed the Milky Way was on holiday in mid-Wales. Since then I seen it better still, many times, but always from very dark locations: Scottish Highlands, rural Eastern Europe, Outback Australia (the best I've seen). Astronaut (talk) 01:41, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

November 6

Microwaving Pritt Stick

Hi, this is a very random question but it's because I was having a conversation about it and we were merely speculting on the answer. What would happen to the gluey bit of Pritt Stick if you microwave it? I guessed it would turn into a hot clear viscous liquid, but I don't know. Any help you can provide is much appreciated. Thanks. 86.138.158.223 (talk) 01:18, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

My guess would be "not much". Microwaves only really heat liquids and Pritt Stick isn't liquid. It is pretty soft as solids go, though, so it is possible it would melt (I know glass will melt in a microwave if you heat it slightly to soften it - it's probably about as hard after being softened as Pritt Stick is). --Tango (talk) 01:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

[14] describes a glue stick exploding the in a microwave - I guess due to air pockets or just uneven heating (which microwaves are renowned for). --Tango (talk) 01:24, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't have thought it would cause a short circuit that blows fuses and ruins electronics (anything plugged in), as I've heard happening if an action figure like Gumby is placed in a microwave. Of course, I guess it depends on how long it's left in, too. (Before I read the article I thought you meant blowing up the microwave, not blowing up inside it.) Still, even if it didn't mkake the microwave explode, I'm surprised that more didn't short out. Of course, it may have been newer wiring, too.209.244.187.155 (talk) 01:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, the glue stick exploded, not the microwave - I've corrected my appalling grammar. --Tango (talk) 02:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Pokémon: Arceus and the Jewel of Life

It just aired on Cartoon Network in Australia, yet I can't find it uploaded on YouTube. The Shaymin movie was on YouTube almost immediately after it aired, so why isn't this movie uploaded and where can I find it online? --71.144.122.140 (talk) 13:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Tautological answer: it isn't online because nobody uploaded up. Why's that? There is no guarantee that anyone will upload commercial content (usually illegally) on the web immediately after something has aired. Whether something does end up on the web immediately (or at all) is no doubt a balance between interest, technical capabilities, and copyright enforcement. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The previous movie was uploaded to YouTube almost immediately after it aired.

Do you know of anywhere that does have the movie uploaded? --71.144.122.140 (talk) 13:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, it might be sometime before it is uploaded anywhere... If you really wanted to watch it again, perhaps check out the Pokémon website, and contact them about it. A quick email couldn't hurt. Letter ⁷ _{it's the best letter :)} 13:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

My sisters watch So You Think You Can Dance on YouTube, and the same user always posts the episodes after they air. Of course, he has to keep getting new accounts since they get closed down for copyright infringement, and they have to keep track of him somehow. So, you could start with finding the user that posted the earlier movie. —Akrabbim^talk 13:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I suspect this is common—that the number of users who take the time (and have the know-how to do it) to upload any given movie or show are very few in comparison with the total number of viewers or potential audience. Uploading movies taken from the TV is not particularly difficult, but it is nowhere as easy as ripping/uploading an MP3 or even a DVD. (If I were a mean-ol' MPAA-like organization, I would target these users specifically, and/or the sites/software that make it easier to do so, and not worry about the downloaders so much.) --Mr.98 (talk) 14:28, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Again, that is illegal. Here's another suggestion, wait until November 20, 2009. It apparently airs in the United States on that date. Perhaps you could check YouTube, but there's no guarantee. Letter ⁷ _{it's the best letter :)} 13:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

We won't help you much with blatant copyright infringement on here, sorry. And just because it was uploaded once immediately after it aired does not mean that subsequent ones would be. You're talking about a sample size of 1 here—just because something happened once before does not in any way guarantee it will happen a second time. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:28, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

And there was I posting a warning because I thought someone had copied out some text from a site to Wikipedia. Bah! is what I say. I know where people posting complete episodes from television and having their accounts closed down can go jump. Dmcq (talk) 15:41, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Muslims

In the past, the Muslim world was the center of mathematical and scientific thought. In fact, Muslims invented such fields as algebra and chemistry, among others. Yet today, Muslim countries are among the most anti-intellectual societies on Earth, believing that math and science go against the will of Allah. What caused this enormous shift in thinking? --70.141.193.245 (talk) 17:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Does this qualify as a loaded question? TastyCakes (talk) 17:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It's true that modern Muslim countries are very anti-intellectual. For example, Saudi Arabia has all but outlawed thinking. My question is, why has this significant change occurred? --70.141.193.245 (talk) 18:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

t takes a lot of math and science to build the tallest building in the world and a nuclear program... Adam Bishop (talk) 18:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It does and it doesn't. Burj Dubai, like all big (non-military) construction jobs, is contracted out. If you look on the page for it, you'll see that the great majority of the companies are non-Arab (many are European and Asian). I don't know how the work is divided up, but either way, it's not like one has to "go it alone" on things of that nature. The Iranian nuclear program certainly demonstrates that even difficult technical feats can be accomplished by a state willing to fund it, and that Iran in particular has a well-developed engineering and scientific infrastructure. (This holds true even if one acknowledges that they received key help from other nations... as did, frankly, all nations with nuclear programs.) --Mr.98 (talk) 18:45, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, aside from the bullshit that muslim countries are anti-intellectual (they certainly don't hold a monopoly on anti-intellectualism), there certainly was a fundemental paradigm shift in the muslim world following the Siege of Baghdad in 1258. Baghdad was the cultural and philosophical capital of the Muslim world, the sack of Baghdad has been cited as the Muslim equivalent as the Fall of the Western Roman Empire in the West, the effects on the Muslim world in terms of decent into "so-called" dark ages is roughly equivalent. But the idea that modern Muslim countries are "more anti-intellectual" than countries of other cultures is bullshit; the idea that modern Islam as a faith is inherantly anti-intellectual is also bullshit. But there was a historical decline in scholarship in the Islamic world after the fall of Baghdad, so there is a nugget of truth in the question. However, ideas like "Saudi Arabia has outlawed thinking" shows such rediculous narrowmindedness I don't know where to begin in correcting the OP's rediculous prejudices. --Jayron32 18:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

He's from Missouri, which probably explains a few things. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

From Springfield, MO, no less. <<insert Simpsons related gag here>> ~~ Dr Dec (Talk) ~~ 18:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I think we can say, however, that many Muslim nations have adopted very harsh laws restricting freedom of speech, access to education, and that the vast majority of the Muslim world lives in abject poverty. Such things are not generally a recipe for scientific innovation, but they are not all to lay at the hands of Islam specifically, but extreme religion more generally. Fundamentalist Christianity is not terribly favorable towards basic scientific research, either. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Many non-Muslim countries have done so as well; such restrictions on freedom are merely a symptom of an authoritarian governmental structure, and not a function of religion at all. There are muslim-majority countries, Turkey for example, where there is not any such authoritarianism. --Jayron32 18:55, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't think one can totally disentangle the government structure from the religion (though obviously you would want to specify that "Islam" is as broad a category of viewpoints as "Christianity", and that both have their extremes) quite as easily as you would like to. Shi'a Islam is fairly straightforward on the types of governments which should follow from believers, which includes a strong authoritarian/theocratic element. Sunni Islam (like that dominant in Turkey) is more agnostic about the question of politics, as I understand it (see Islam and democracy). --Mr.98 (talk) 20:07, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It's probably unfair to single out Islamic nations as "anti-intellectual". It's not that Islam was behind the rest of the world, but that for many centuries Europe was ahead of it (I am strictly speaking technologically here - I am fully aware of the cultural contributions of other civilizations). In the colonial period the nations of Europe were able to dominate most of the other civilizations they encountered, and were the equal of all. In short, Europe was the anomaly, not Islam. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Let's stick to just answering the OP's questions and correcting his observations, and avoid calling him things like "rediculously [sic] narrowminded" and ridiculing his IP location. —Akrabbim^talk 20:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

There are, of course, arguments that different cultures and religions did affect the pace of science, long before the Europeans started colonializing in a significant degree. E.g. Joseph Needham famously argued that the Chinese culture of philosophical stability and the methods of advancement in governance boded ill for it actually using its technologies effectively, even though they were significantly ahead of the Europeans for many centuries (people have taken issue with this argument, of course, but it's not stupid). I don't know enough about the Islamic world to say much specifically on that topic, though. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if there is an answer that fits on a bumper sticker. Here is an article that discusses the issue. All of this is terribly non-PC of course. (Btw, "Muslims invented algebra and chemistry" is a myth, see history of algebra and history of chemistry.) 88.112.58.122 (talk) 08:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem here is the distinction between an entire community of people ("Muslims") and some individual intellectuals within that society. While we know that the word "Algebra" comes from the title of a book written in 820 by some persian mathematician - that doesn't tell us much about Muslims in general in the first century. It might be that all of that society was galvanised by advances in math and science - much like Victorian England. Or it might be that there were just a handful of intellectuals who studied this field and came up with a few breakthroughs - while the rest of the population had no clue about or interest in math and science. I have yet to see proof either way.

I'm sure you can find a fair number of modern-day Muslims who are also responsible for breakthroughs in these areas. Abdus Salam for example - a practicing Muslim who won the Nobel prize in Physics for his work in Electro-Weak Theory in the 1970's. The reputation Muslims had back in the first century AD for this kind of progress might reflect only a relatively small number of individuals - comparable, perhaps, with the number working in these fields today. See List of Muslim scientists for many, many examples through the ages.

What I think is more significant is the nature of the entire body of society. There is no question that some (but not all) modern Muslim countries are rather hostile to the kind of modern educational systems that produces mathematicians and scientists. When you look at the modern era members of List of Muslim scientists - a large proportion of the ones recognised in the past 50 years are Muslims living in non-Muslim countries. In the past, that inattention to scientific education mattered little because a determined individual could be self-taught and still make breakthroughs that would change the world. But in our modern age, an individual with nothing more than a good intellect and a small number of books stands almost zero chance of doing that because there is so much more to learn - and all of the easy stuff has already been done. In the year 820, you could get an entire major branch of mathematics named after your book just by writing down the rules for making equations balance. Nowadays, you'd have to spend years of your life working on one narrow problem just to get a Theorem named after you!

To make progress these days, you have to stand on the shoulders of the giants who preceded you. Hence, without an educational system that strongly promotes and teaches these subjects, without access to large libraries, without computers and fast access to the Internet - it's going to become increasingly hard to turn out top class scientists and mathematicians - no matter how intelligent people are - no matter how enthusiastic they are for their subject - no matter how tolerant your society is of those activities.

But lest the western world become smug - remember, 44% of Americans believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old, 65% don't believe in evolution, 36% don't believe that global warming is a problem, 90%(!) of adult Americans are unable to add two fractions - even with the help of a calculator, 20% don't believe that men have walked on the moon. Science education is under assault from all directions. Things in Europe are not so bad - but there are signs that things are heading in the exact same direction (25% of Brits and 28% of Russians think the moon landings were a hoax).

In 50 to 100 years - will people in Japan be looking at America and Europe and say "In the past, the western world was the center of mathematical and scientific thought. Yet today, western countries are among the most anti-intellectual societies on Earth,"...I think we're seeing the start of a trend here.

SteveBaker (talk) 14:37, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Steve, I know you're typically sketchy on citing sources, but do you have any for the dumb-Americans claims in the 2nd to last paragraph? Not that I'm doubting you or anything, but the citation would be useful. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Ditto to the above because I'm really interested in reading up more about this trend as well. Are those numbers from the book: Unscientific America: How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens our Future? Royor (talk) 16:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, there are plenty of sources - Google can be your friend. As far as I recall, these numbers came from:

• 44% of Americans believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old - comes from the book I'm reading right now - Richard Dawkins' The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution - quoting a 2008 Gallup poll.
• 65% don't believe in evolution - came from the same book (it happened to be handy next to my keyboard!). This number varies radically according to who you read - but this shows only 39% believe in evolution - this shows the number is much lower if you specify human evolution - just 15%. You can find numbers anywhere between those two extremes...pick whichever you want depending on precisely how you frame the question.
• 36% don't believe that global warming is a problem...I forget which web site I got this from - but a Google search turns up plenty of sources for this number or worse. But again, you see a range of numbers depending on precisely what you ask - this says only 15% accept that burning fossil fuels is the cause. This says only 35 percent describe it as "very serious". This says that only 57% say there is solid evidence for global warming. "Fewer than four-in-ten (36%) now say global warming is mostly caused by human activity such as burning fossil fuels,". Here is a graph showing the percentage of believers and disbelievers as a function of time.
• 90%(!) of adult Americans are unable to add two fractions - even with the help of a calculator. This was from a survey taken by Dallas ISD about 5 years ago - sorry I can't point to an online reference. I was surprised at the number at the time and I asked a bunch of people I know to add 2/3rds to 3/4ths - and very VERY few of them could do it - or even describe how to do it. An alarming number of people thought the answer was 5/7ths because that's (2+3)/(3+4). I went so far as to ask my son's math teacher to pose this question to parents who came to the high school open day - and it was amazing to see an entire roomful of Adults with absolutely no idea how to do this simple piece of arithmetic. Many said "I learned how to do that in school - but I've forgotten how."...argh! I now firmly believe the 90% figure (at least for people without calculators)...but it's pretty frightning.
• 20% don't believe that men have walked on the moon - came from a Fox TV show "Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon?" which is a bit outdated from 2001. I believe that recent studies have found far worse figures - people are definitely getting worse on this one at time goes by.

SteveBaker (talk) 00:59, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Those "90% of people don't know how to do (random mathematical calculation)" are kind of misleading. 90% of people probably don't need to know how to add two fractions, except on their math tests when they are 12. Why do they need to know how to calculate the length of a hypotenuse? Or the area of a sphere? Who cares? Adam Bishop (talk) 03:13, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Hold on, he's not talking about something weird that nobody needs to do in real life; adding simple fractions is something Americans ought to be better at than most people as they still use those quaint fraction-based measurement schemes. Anyone who's had to add fractions of inches together should know how to add fractions together. Here in Canada, we could at least honestly say "Fractions?? What the fuck would I need to add fractions for, Yankee? Don't you guys still measure fuel efficiency using rods per hogshead or something? Gimme a decimal!" and so on. Or at least we would, if we weren't so nice. :-) Matt Deres (talk) 03:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, although we still do use imperial measurements for some things (do you know how tall you are in centimetres, or how much you weigh in kilograms? I don't!). But the only time I can imagine adding fractions is if I have to double a recipe that requires 1/3 or 1/4 or 1/2 cups. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:02, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Is the fraction thing a sign of "anti-intellectualism", though, or merely a demonstration that such skills tend to be lost by most people if they don't use them regularly? As for the recent increases in young earth creationism, etc, I think a lot of that is a reaction to militant atheism; when you get respected scientists running around telling people that they can have their traditions, culture and religion, or they can have science, but they can't have both, it's not surprising that many choose the former over the latter. FiggyBee (talk) 05:41, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's often Christians who make that argument - that science is incompatible with Biblical literalism, therefore science must be rejected. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I think there's a temporary bulwark of hard-line nationalism in some Muslim nations, and that once things settle down we'll be able to see past the nuclear programs and Hezbollah attacks and recognize that part of the world as having a lot to offer, intellectually and scientifically. Vranak (talk) 18:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The enormous shift in thinking is called the Renaissance that did not impact Muslim societies. Is there a reputable source for the OP's claim that Muslims believe that math and science go against the will of Allah? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:38, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, there was a very explicit change in the history of Muslim thinking around the 12th century. In the early history of Islam there were too approaches to understanding the will of Allah. One might be described as fundamentalist in modern terms, relying on the Quran, textual interpretation, and authorities. The other was philosophical/scientific with Muslims believing that new insight into the Quran and Allah could come from studying the natural world with scientific reasoning. The two sides came into conflict. The Incoherence of the Philosophers, Al-Ghazali, and similar 11th and 12th century scholars and works led to the conscious suppression of the Islamic natural philosophers. Sort of a Renaissance in reverse. The universities and religious institutions of that era moved away from the study of natural philosophy and became more fundamentalist. The elimination of science as an accepted path to understanding Allah had a lasting impact on the development of scientific thought in the Muslim world that carries through even to the modern day in many places. Dragons flight (talk) 19:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The Christian world is facing that same anti-intellectual threat. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:27, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The Midrash Shachar Tov on Psalms makes an interesting statement when it compares all nations to animals, much like modern personifications as the Russian Bear. It compares the heritage of Ishmael (Islam) to a camel, the heritage of Esau (Rome, and often extended to embody Western civilization) to a pig and the heritage of Israel to a sheep. Rabbi Yoel Schwartz explains these references as follows: each of these animals displays different types of kosher signs. The camel ruminates, but does not possess fully cloven hooves; the pig possesses fully cloven hooves but does not ruminate; the sheep both ruminates and possesses cloven hooves. He explains that these personifications reference the global perspective of the nations. While, he asserts, that Islam displays tremendous respect for past tradition (regurgitation + rumination), they fail to make progress and move forward (hooves). Christiandom, he states, is the opposite -- they make great strides and advance (hooves) but they have little respect for things in the past (rumination). While I'm sure this is to be controversial -- I believe access to all knowledge is inherently good, and you may choose to agree or disagree as you will. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 14:51, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

And by an amazing coincidence, the Jewish writings (i.e. the Midrash Shachar Tov) about that group of nations conclude that the Jewish approach is the best. :) An interesting comparison, though. It's fortunate for the sheep that it gets a good chunk of its feed from a nation alleged to be a "pig". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect Info for Mike DeNiro

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_DeNiro, it is stated that Mike DeNiro of Youngstown OH and (Youngstown) Chaney High School attended the Univ of Alabama. This is incorrect. Before his death, Mike attended Texas A&M. I know -- I was a friend and teammate of Mike's all though high school and into college. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.9.47.70 (talk) 19:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Are you certain? Wikipedia has no articles named Mike Deniro or Michael Deniro nor has any article by those titles ever been deleted, near as I can find. Are you perhaps mistaken about where you found this info? --Jayron32 20:05, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. As you say, the OP didn't see that info in an article by that name. He actually got it from List of people from Youngstown, Ohio. However, he got it from an old revision of the page, and only today User:DJ Clayworth deleted the Mike DeNiro name from that list, citing "redlink" as a reason diff. Now, I am unaware of any guideline or policy that says deleting redlinks anywhere, including lists, is a good thing. The whole point of redlinks is that they encourage people to start articles.

On the other hand, the OP should note that unfortunately, personal knowledge like he quoted is not sufficient for Wikipedia. We need a reference to a reputable, independent, verifiable source such as a newspaper or magazine article that says DeNiro attended Texas A&M. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 20:29, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The deletion or retention of redlinks on WP lists is decided on a list-by-list basis. Some accept redlinks galore, others immediately remove them. Some let them stay for a month or so, then delete them if an article hasn't been forthcoming, e.g. Deaths in 2009. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

WP:REDLINK states "Do not create red links to articles that will never be created". Articles whose subject is not obviously notable are usually not placed into lists of "notable people from city X"-type lists. Redlinks in lists are useful for situations where the list contains likely notable subjects. Its fairly standard operating procedure to remove redlinks of people from such list; if such people are notable establish notability in an article FIRST, then add them to the list in question. --Jayron32 00:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

H. Upmann and Montecristo in the US

According to Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara, "A smoke in times of rest is a great companion to the solitary soldier."

I was recently able to purchase H. Upmann and Montecristo cigars in the United States. It is my understanding that the US has a trade embargo against Cuba correct? Hence, is it safe to assume that the cigars I purchased were made by Altadis in the Dominican Republic instead of Habanos S.A. in Cuba? Acceptable (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Likely. Does the cigar band say? The Cuban ones seem to advertise it there. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes. After the revolution, the major Cuban cigar makers all set up shop elsewhere in the region. There is some debate about how well those cigars compare with the current Cuban product — the plants stayed in Cuba, but much of the expertise emigrated. The Cubans I've had have been good, but not enough so to justify the price. PhGustaf (talk) 22:57, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers; the label does not say the manufacturing origin. Acceptable (talk) 00:52, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

See United States embargo against Cuba. Smoking a Cuban-grown cigar could be viewed as burning their crops. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

November 7

Ship related

What is the purpose of "Margin Line" on ships and what is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prashantpanchal (talk • contribs) 08:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

One online dictionary has "it defines the highest permissible location on the ship side of any damage waterplane in the final condition of sinkage, trim and heel". That's not particularly helpful to me, butI don't know much about ships. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 12:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The OED has "a line on the after hull of a boat or ship marked by the ends of the bottom timbers; (in later use) a notional waterline intended to ensure sufficient buoyancy should the hull be holed and not more than two compartments flooded (introduced in this sense by the British Board of Trade after the loss of the Titanic in 1912)." Algebraist 13:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

In other words - if you get a hole in the hull below that line - the ship might sink. If the hole is above that line, it won't. One would assume, therefore, that it corresponds to the depth to which the ship might ride in the water if fully loaded - perhaps with some allowance for big waves. SteveBaker (talk) 13:40, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Why give an incorrect response after two other editors have provided correct and referenced answers?—eric 18:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Are we talking about the Plimsoll line (aka International Load Line, waterline)? Mitch Ames (talk) 01:29, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Nope, recall from all the TV programs on the Titanic sinking, the animations of the flooding in the damaged forward watertight compartments rising over the top of the bulkheads and flooding the undamaged compartments aft.[15] The margin line is simply a line drawn below the bulkhead deck (the top of the watertight bulkheads) and used to calculate the floodable length of the ship[16]. A google books search gives a number of explanations.—eric 16:28, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Lord Mayors

What year was the first lord mayors after the war ended 1945 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.11.87.149 (talk) 13:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I assume you mean the Lord Mayor's Show. The wikipedia article on the show states that it was not interrupted for World War II, although this appears from my checks to be inaccurate - but it all depends what you mean. In November 1939 a Times leader complained that the Lord Mayor's Show had been cancelled and that "this 'Second Bore War' is living up to its name", while the paper recorded that the Guildhall Banquet "with its processions and fanfares" had taken place "with a ceremonial appropriate to war-time". In 1941 a parade of the Allied services took the place of the show and in 1942 there was a parade of youth showing how they were taking part in the war effort. There was a short "grim, mechanized procession" in 1943.

For 1944 the Court of Alderman initially decided that there was to be no show at all, but seem to have quickly changed their mind and held a full procession with 2,500 troops - described as the first since the outbreak of war. A very similar but much larger procession took place in 1945, still heavily dominated by the services. For 1946 the show reverted to its traditional pageantry. Sam Blacketer (talk) 13:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I need $400 ASAP

My parents are making me get my own laptop. i have tried getting a job to no success, so is there any way I could sell items? I cant do a garage sale. And I dint have a credit card. So besides those two ways, is there any way I can sell old video games, or junk of mine? Accdude92 (talk to me!) (sign) 16:52, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

More context needed. Are your parents forcing you to by a laptop as some kind of peculiar punishment (perhaps a really annoying laptop), or is it as I suspect that they want you to stop using their computer and get your own? If the latter, surely a cheap semi-obsolete one somebody is throwing out is the way to go? I've picked up three Athlons that way for nothing. Tricky parts then become mouse, keyboard, and monitor, which you'll probably have to buy, though there are still a lot of unwanted CRTs kicking around at the moment from people who've upgraded to LCD. Generally speaking it's easier to persuade people that they want to give away old junk they aren't using than to persuade them that they want to buy more old junk for significant amounts of money. 81.131.47.22 (talk) 17:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried looking on Freecycle? Is there a free ad service where you live, where you can place a want ad? You never know - if you don't ask, you don't get! What about selling stuff on Ebay? --TammyMoet (talk) 17:16, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Dont I need a credit card to sell on ebay?Accdude92 (talk to me!) (sign) 17:22, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

How about this site [17]? ...which, if you're not in the US, I found from here: [18]. 81.131.47.22 (talk) 17:41, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, but if you do then ask if you can borrow a card from your parents. Since you'll just be putting money *on* the card, I can't see why they would say no. You'll probably need to borrow a credit card (or debit card) to buy the laptop anyway (they are usually cheaper online than in stores). --Tango (talk) 17:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

This is the same question from the OP[19] "I need to make enough money to by[sic] a laptop" Cuddlyable3 (talk) 17:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I made that spelling error too, just noticed. You should take it easy on people who make that particular spelling error. This is an opinion I've formed recently. 81.131.47.22 (talk) 18:09, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Use of the Latin word sic when quoting the words of another is being fair both to the author who should not feel misquoted, to the quoter who should not be held responsible for the error, and to the reader(s) who should not be misled that the spelling is correct. IMO sic should be used more often.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

You can try Craigslist or trading in old videogames to your local Game Stop but eventually you're going to need to get a job. You can't make enough money to buy a (decent) laptop in a short amount of time without working. A minimum wage job at McDonalds (e.g. working at the weekend for four hours each day) could probably earn you at least $150 per month after taxes, and that's definitely more than you'd earn in the same amount of time through Craigslist, GameStop and eBay.

81's advice is also useful. Ask around (or go on Craigslist) and see if anyone's getting rid of an old laptop. With the definition of "old" becoming much shorter in recent times than it was, any "old" laptop should be able to run at least Windows XP. Even if it couldn't, you could still wipe the hard-drive and install a variant of Linux. Xenon54 / talk / 18:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

You don't need a credit card to sell on eBay. You can just set up a PayPal account, and then attach it to your bank account. —Akrabbim^talk 18:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't trade in video games to a store; sell them on Craigslist. You'll make more money. When you do, don't take any checks or do remote transactions; meet the people personally so they can inspect your stuff, and take cash only. In the end, as mentioned above, eventually you are going to have to get a job, though it is difficult to do now — you've probably seen on the news that the US unemployment rate hit 10% last week, which is something like a 26-year high; there are more job seekers than jobs available, so you are not alone in this — so keep trying, and try to not get discouraged. Be alert for other opportunities for non-traditional jobs. Find out what people are charging to mow lawns and undercut their prices and knock door-to-door to seek customers. Do also use Craigslist to look for dirt-cheap machines — I got a working desktop (no monitor) once for US$5.00. Tempshill (talk) 19:09, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and do use eBay, for sure, to find out the current going rate for the stuff you're going to try to sell. If it doesn't sell on Craigslist for the price you quote then I'd try eBay if you can get it rigged properly with PayPal and your bank account so that you can get paid ... eBay will make it much more likely you'll be able to sell your stuff within 7 days, but the money will be less (because the shipping charge will reduce the amount the buyer is willing to pay). Your choice whether to lower your prices accordingly. Tempshill (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, I have the impression you are, or have recently been, a student. Check with your school, or your ex-school, and ask if there are any paid jobs that you can qualify for. Custodian's assistant, library assistant, anything. And ask all your friends and (cringe) ask your parents to ask their friends. Word-of-mouth is, by far, the easiest way to get a job, in my experience; much easier than cold-calling. OK, enough advice for today. Tempshill (talk) 19:38, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, Im 17, can I still attach paypal to my bank account?

I skimmed some of the legal agreements at this page and it appears that you have to be 18 to get a regular PayPal account, but there is something called a Student Account for people under 18 (but over 13) in which the parent gets to set various permissions — they can prevent you from receiving money, for example — and they probably get to spy on everything you do. If that's all OK with you then it sounds like the student account might work. You should probably find the place on their website where they talk about what you can and can't do with a Student Account; I've no personal experience with it; the first I heard of it was today. Tempshill (talk) 07:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The place I used to work had an internal auction to get rid of some old equipment (I picked up two 17" CRT monitors for 50p each), but many companies just chuck out old equipment after a couple of years even though it is still in working condition. If you don't fancy checking out the dumpsters behind the local office blocks, maybe you know someone who works in an IT support department who can let you have old equipment for free. Astronaut (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

50p? You were ripped off... I recently took a couple of CRTs to the tip - I would have paid you at least a couple of quid to take them away... --Tango (talk) 01:57, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Finding Users

Hi, Is it possible to go to the user pages of the users of reference desk of the choice, e.g. If I want to find the users of Indian Nationality just to view his user page, Can I directly find it without knowing anything about him ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.55.135.211 (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

No, this is not possible. The list of "regulars" is here. It is by no means comprehensive. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 19:59, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I suppose that you could try looking for names that are on that list and also on Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Members - that would at least give you the names of Reference Desk regulars who work on Indian topics. Grutness...wha? 23:38, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Odd Chinese money from WWII era

I've found this money on eBay and it says it was printed by Chinese outlaws during WWII. Anyone heard of anything like this or know where I could find out more info?Popcorn II (talk) 20:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The Chinese customs gold unit was a currency of China during WWII, but they were American-printed notes of the central government, not a locally-produced currency of any rebel group. The ebay page says "Non Original Issue", whatever that means. Reproduction? Perhaps the idea is that these notes are period forgeries? Additionally, our article says that the high denomination notes didn't come about until post-WWII hyperinflation, and only mentions notes up to 250,000 units, so there seems to be a lot that doesn't add up here. FiggyBee (talk) 22:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The page actually says "Copy/Replica" - so this is definitely not the real thing! SteveBaker (talk) 23:56, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Although "the paper has slight yellowing due to the age. I was told they were printed by Chinese Outlaws in the mountains during World War II" seems to suggest the seller believes them to be authentic artefacts, if not authentic banknotes? I dunno. FiggyBee (talk) 00:32, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Little Brown Bat residing on screen in window of our house

A little Brown Bat has taken up residence in our window screen between storm window and inside window. I know NOT to touch it but my concern is that I live in South Western Michigan and it's now November and winter will be upon us soon. I have the inside window open about 1" to allow heat from inside to flow up between the two windows. (Bat is on OUTSIDE of screen so can't get into house).I understand it is probably in hibernation mode and probably does not need to eat now but it does leave occasionally so I'm not sure if it's actually in hibernation or not. The weather temps in our area are now getting into the 20's at night and will be much colder soon. There are no insects available now so if the bat still needs food, what should I put out for it/and where would I find the food? And would it be a good idea for me to put a bat house in the window (fastened to OUTSIDE of screen)for better shelter for it. I just want to make sure I do everything I can to insure it's survival from the harsh Michigan winter. I would very much appreciate any advice/suggestions anyone with knowledge on this subject might be willing to share with me. Thank you in advance for your help.

NancyNancylm4419626417 (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest that attempting to keep the little creature warm by opening the window a little is not going to help because it needs a really cool temperature to get it into hibernation mode with body function shutdown. A little warmth could disturb its sleep/hibernation cycle. Why not give these peopleor [20] a ring to see if they can offer advice or help. Richard Avery (talk) 23:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The next time the bat leaves, close the window completely so that it's forced to look elsewhere for shelter. While bats are great to have around, they are NOT suitable house guests. Besides being covered in lice and other bugs and possibly carrying rabies, bat shit is nasty stuff. The millions of other bats in your area have found suitable places to hide out the winter; make sure this one joins them. Incidentally, a pair of thick work gloves are enough to ward off the bite of a small bat (personal experience); pick him up and toss him out. And throw out the gloves. Matt Deres (talk) 04:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Visa debit gift card

Is it reloadable? Like there is this kiosk in a best buy where you can see your old video games. If I get a visa gift debit card, will it reload? Accdude92 (talk to me!) (sign) 21:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Debit cards are tied to your checking account. Gift cards are not re-loadable. You're combining the two. Which is it? Xenon54 / talk / 22:27, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

It's both. They are a fairly recent invention. It works like a Visa Electron card, I think, but rather than a normal bank account on the other end it's a balance provided by the person buying the card. I don't know if they can be reloaded or not. Probably not - that would make them a bank account. --Tango (talk) 22:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

In NZ you can't [21]. The Visa site may have more for the US [22]. Nil Einne (talk) 16:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

November 8

What is Virgin Galactic complaining about?

See this news item: [23] So far as I can make out, they wish that the Outer Space Act was more restrictive: they are saying that spaceflight in the UK is currently uneconomical because any commercial space operator has too much freedom, making insurance too expensive. Until they are prevented from doing more things, their hands are tied. Is that the right way to read the article? 213.122.41.68 (talk) 02:09, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, kinda. If you're an insurance agency, you'd want to ensure that the people you're insuring (Virgin Galactic in this case) are obeying safety regulations, etc. However, if there are no regulations - how can they measure that Virgin are being "responsible"? Since Virgin will certainly need insurance, it's in their best interests to have government regulations which they can point to and say "Look - we're being responsible - we're following all of the government regulations - we've been inspected - you can insure us at a reasonable rate." SteveBaker (talk) 03:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Couldn't the insurance company set rules as part of the insurance policy? They need to assess the risks in order to work out what premiums to charge, so it doesn't seem that much extra work to write the rules. I think what that article is saying (it really isn't clear) is that the regulation just isn't suited to private space travel. It's not to do with being too restrictive or not restrictive enough, it's about having the right restrictions. --Tango (talk) 03:20, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, the first part of your answer seems to contradict the second part, so now I'm confused. Do you mean to say that they (VG) require there to be different legal restrictions, that is, some added and some removed - but also that you can't see why the additional restrictions would be necessary since the the insurance company could just set those rules itself? Meaning that removing restrictions is really all that's vital? (Though I suppose regulations enforced by government inspectors save insurance companies money and act like a spaceflight subsidy.) 213.122.41.68 (talk) 03:30, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have any actual references on getting insurance for spacecraft? I would assume that it is such an unusual and exotic activity that the only insurer, other than possibly a government agency with a stimulus agenda, would be Lloyd's of London, which will supposedly insure anything, so they're the only ones who need to be impressed with your safety procedures. In practice, Lloyd's policies are not exactly discount priced, so self-insurance (that is, "no insurance purchased") would be what I would expect most spacecraft companies would do. Tempshill (talk) 07:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The article doesn't go into too much detail. This article says that they want changes to Britain's "1986 Outer Space Act". APL (talk) 07:42, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Cranberry juice in a cosmo

Hi Misc Ref Deskers,

My mum visited New York recently and the trip got her hooked on Cosmopolitans - the drink. Every recipe out there calls for 30mL of cranberry juice to give the drink colour, and it obviously also contributes to the flavour.

My mum and I are Australian, and the juice we find in the local shops is always 25% juice + water + sugar. Given that cranberry juice is pretty strongly flavoured, I wouldn't be surprised if the "cranberry juice" used in the US is the same as the "cranberry drink" we get here, but could someone confirm that for me?

In short to make a genuine New York Cosmo, do we need pure cranberry juice, or is the watered down, sugared stuff okay? And more importantly, with which was the cosmo my mum drank at Mickey Mantle's near Central Park made? --Polysylabic Pseudonym (talk) 02:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

No, cranberry juice in the U.S. is usually actual full-strength cranberry juice. Most is concentrated for storage and transport and then rediluted back to near natural strength, although some is of the "not from concentrate" variety. The industry standard for cranberry juice in the U.S., and the one most bars will use in a cosmopolitan, is Ocean Spray Cranberry Juice Cocktail, which is pretty much just cranberry juice concentrate, sugar, and water. Some bars may use a different, but equivalent, name brand of cranberry juice. There are some "powdered cranberry drinks" like cranberry flavored Kool-aid, but you would never use that in a cosmopolitan. Cosmos are made with real, honest-to-God, cranberry juice. --Jayron32 02:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The Cosmopolitan hotel web site doesn't even admit that they have a bar - let alone provide information about the cocktail.

[24] says that sweetened cranberry juice should be used - with 3.8 grams of sugar per 1 oz serving (my head is spinning at the mix of metric and imperial units!) - it doesn't say anything about water content though. [25] says to use more cranberry juice - and to add syrup...that suggests that the sugar is important. hubpages.com/hub/Cosmopolitan-Drink-Recipes says specifically that "Cranberry juice cocktail" is required - so that one definitely wants the sweetened/watered-down version. But then www.associatedcontent.com/article/2190019/premium_cosmo_cocktail_recipes.html specifically tells you to use the unsweetened kind. So the jury is out. The obvious answer is to try it and see...if it tastes like your mum remembers - then you're good to go...you may need to do an extensive statistical study! :-) SteveBaker (talk) 02:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

...27% real, honest-to-God, cranberry juice, apparently. [26][27] 213.122.41.68 (talk) 03:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Just to reiterate and clarify, in the US, it is called a "Cranberry Juice Cocktail" when it is with water and sugar. You can get straight juice in the US pretty easily though, so recipes might call for that. Recipes will no doubt vary, though. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:43, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

You can get it, but a lot of places charge a lot for it — you might pay nine bucks for a quart. Trader Joe's is where I buy it; they often have it at five or so. --Trovatore (talk) 08:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Well thanks everyone, and Steve, I assure you a proper statistical sample will be taken. Ocean Spray is what we've got and if it's good enough for most US bars it's good enough for my mum and I :) --Polysylabic Pseudonym (talk) 11:42, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

What is my chinese name ?

I tried google, but no appropriate answers. I just want to write my name in Chinese. My name is Vijayakumar. I can give you meaning of this name if that could be helpful. jay - victory; "vi" prefix makes it (victory) special; kumar - son ( as in Wilson, Anderson, etc. :) ) --V4vijayakumar (talk) 08:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

This is probably more of a WP:RD/L question that for here. Chinese versions of non-Chinese names don't tend to translate the actual meaning, they just use the appropriate sound characters. I can't answer definitely what your Chinese name would be, and a confusing factor is that - if I remember correctly - there are different variations used for the same names in Mandarin and Cantonese. One possibility is to check Wikipedia articles for famous people called Vijay and Kumar and see whether they have articles on the Chinese Wikipedia. If they do, you can check the titles on those articles. The Chinese article on Vijayawada suggests that "Vijaya" is 维杰亚. The article on golfer Vijay Singh also uses the same first two characters, so it seems to be constant for Vijay. Similarly, "庫馬" seems to be used for Kumar. From that - though I'd like confirmation from someone who has a better grasp of Chinese than I do - I'd say that 维杰亚庫馬 would be Vijayakumar. Grutness...wha? 10:13, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

nice suggestion. do they use sound, not meaning ? I thought if victory, son can be written in 10 ways then my name can also be written in 10 * 10 different ways. --V4vijayakumar (talk) 12:32, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

On a side note, 维杰亚庫馬 would be way too long, as Chinese generally uses two or three syllables for names. Names are usually 'one syllable for family name' + 'one or two for given names'. In my experience, however, while famous people may be given Chinese phonetic equivalents for their names, the general public can also receive names which are completely unrelated to how their name sounds in their language of origin. My Chinese name, for example, bears no resemblance to my actual name. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 13:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

It's not necessarily "too long." As you, KageTora, non-Chinese (you're right, typically famous people) do sometimes receive lengthier names that are not really "Chinese names" but "Chinese transliterations" of their names. So if the original poster is happy with having a "Chinese transliteration" of his (correct gender?) name, then unless a native speaker -- which I'm not -- says it's absolutely ridiculous, then the longer version is a reasonable choice so long as he realizes it's not a "Chinese name" that a native-born Han Chinese would receive. By the way, names given to non-Chinese can factor in both sound and meaning. --71.111.194.50 (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

sound leds

What's the LED thing on retro hi fis that jumps about when sound plays called? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.89.85 (talk) 12:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

'Graphic Equalizer? --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 13:22, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Airports: abbreviation "PR"

The article is titled "List of airports in the United States" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_the_United_States Under "Primary airports" the term "ROLE" is defined as: P-L = Primary - Large Hub P-M = Primary - Medium Hub P-S = Primary - Small Hub P-N = Promary - Non-Hub Then under the heading "ROLE" the designation "PR" is used and is undefined. What does "PR" mean in this context?Danwargo (talk) 14:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Added header, removed duplicate posting. From the context I guess it means primary, but even lower in traffic than a P-N / non-hub airport. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The response that "PR" means lower in traffic does not square with the presented data. For example, Manchester-Boston Regional Airport (MHT) enplanements are listed as 1,931,563 and the airport is classified "PR". North Las Vegas Airport (VGT) enplanements are listed as 85,900 and that airport is classified as P-N.--Danwargo (talk) 15:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Oops. Further roles are:

PR: Commercial Service - Primary are publicly owned airports which receive scheduled passenger service and have more than 10,000 passenger boardings each year.

CS: Commercial Service - Non-Primary are publicly owned airports which receive scheduled passenger service and have at least 2,500 passenger boardings each year.

RL: Reliever airports are designated by the FAA to relieve congestion at a large commercial service airport and to provide more general aviation access to the overall community.

GA: General Aviation airports are the largest single group of airports in the U.S. airport system. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning inside a microwav oven

Ok, OK, I DO actually clean the inside of my micro oven - but is it actually necessary? Surely any splashed food particles that might encourage the growth of bacteria will be zapped by the very nature of the oven itself such that the food you cook thereafter will be utterly safe to eat. Only asking. Don't imagine I am a slut - or want to be. 92.21.39.171 (talk) 18:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)