Talk:Daewoo

POV

Sorry but the corporations section of this article, to me at least, looks almost like an advertisment for the company, it needs changing and probably updating. Someone who knows more about Daewoo should do this though, all I noticed was POV Hydraton31 14:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree - the Crisis History section of the article sounds heavily biased in favor of Daewoo, and takes on a pretty accusatory tone with the South Korean government. Furthermore, it lacks citations or sources.

Is this article about GM-Daewoo Motors?

This article needs to be changed. Daewoo has been split up into different companies, so this article needs to reflect Daewoo Motors` buyout by GM. --Ce garcon 12:53, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

couldn't agree more...

I agree with this guy. And besides... The DAEWOO guy took all his money and fled to europe. It was aired on the korean news years ago! Whoever says the GOVERNMENT took part in this is absurd. It was the Founder's fault and his alone. Why else would he take all his money and leave korea for good? because of his greed.

You forgot a signature. No big deal. Anyway, even though this might be dead obvious, Wikipedia's not a collection of opinions. It's a non-biased collection of verifiable information. So if we want to dig up dirt, we have to find some sort of factual documentation to source. Bmunden 18:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

No.

Most definitely not.

This article is not about Daewoo Motors or GM Daewoo. It is about Daewoo Group, the conglomerate that was liquidated. An article on GM Daewoo might need to be set up new altogether.

the logo at the top of the page belongs to AutoZAZ-Daewoo, the former joint-venture of AutoZAZ (Zaporizhia, Ukraine) and Daewoo

Questions: 1) if it is correct to use this logo for Daewoo group page 2) as JV was Ukrainian, so most likely was the language of the logo

==This article is a joke== Especially the crisis history section. Where is the mention of accounting fraud commited by Kim? Instead, it's filled with conspiracy theories that no sane person would believe. He was wanted by the Koeran government for fraud. end of story.

Note that the section in question has been cleaned up considerably and properly referenced to credible news organizations.

template

i am replacing the template with the basic korean template, without hanja, because hanja is not really a part of the local language name. in korean language results from google, 대우 outnumbers 大宇 by about 1688:1. Appleby 17:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Using the English Google with Unicode settings, I've got 3.1million for 대우 vs. 1.49million for 大宇. So it's more like 2:1, and it should be OK to put the Hanja back in.--Endroit 17:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

non-language specific results for 大宇, including the first result, are not for this company. for english language results, i get 899 results for the hanja [1] ,and 13,200 for the hangul[2], or a ratio of about 15:1. but the purpose of the infobox is to provide info on the local language name, which i think would be better reflected in korean language results. Appleby 17:51, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay then, we shouldn't be using Google to begin with. The Korean Hanja results in Google you used are not accurate either, because THEY MISS MOST of the Unicode occurrences of 大宇 (the Daewoo company) altogether. The real ratio would be somewhere between 2:1 and 1688:1, which doesn't prove anything. I would advise against using Google to prove your point for Hanja, since it is inaccurate. We should use other methods, such as concensus in these discussions.

Please don't get me wrong.... Most of your Hanja deletions in the last couple of days (so far) have been good. I just had a comment with the way you used Google count. (Just a minor objection).--Endroit 18:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Endroit. The fact that 大宇 can never be found in a hangul encoded page is a technical issues, not a language issue. hanja can only show up in unicode encoded page. Kowloonese 22:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

could you provide a link to the unicode google results? [edit: actually, i see you're talking about the same result that i got from non-language-specific search, where the first result is not about this company. why would you search outside of korean language pages for korean language local usage?] i'm not sure what you mean by that. if we agree that the infobox is for the local language info, i don't understand why you wouldn't just look at the korean language results, could you explain? if it can be objectively shown that hanja is not a part of the local language usage, subjective opinions of a few random people obviously can't override the data. Appleby 18:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Here are my links for Hanja (1,490,000) and Hangul (3,100,000).

Daewoo is (was?) an international corporation, originating in Korea, but marketing to the world. This would be similar to Hyundai and Chosun Ilbo. Look at their logo's! Wouldn't you consult with official corporate logo's and documents before consulting Google anyways? And these companies use authentic Korean Hanja's on their own initiatives.

Since these international entities tend to market to the whole world, it should be more appropriate to do a Google count for the whole world (which includes China, Korea, and Japan... the countries that understand the Hanja). What is the precedence for companies like Chrysler, Exxon, Philips, Toshiba, Sony, etc? Would they even use the Google count for the an official corporate name? Wouldn't you consult with the sources from the company first, rather than Google count?

Also, you should listen to Kowloonese too. He may know something about the official Korean names of the company.--Endroit 19:52, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

as i pointed out, your link for hanja daewoo shows that the first link is to a different company than the subject of this article. also, please answer, why would you look at chinese pages for korean language local usage?

lots of companies are global companies, and have localized spellings, which are not the same as the international or u.s. or country-of-origin's name. since this is the english wikipedia article about a korea-based company, i would think that the information should be either about the english or korean language names. otherwise, all companies, including american companies, should have infoboxes with chinese characters if they market to china, according to your logic. but of course, they don't. Appleby 20:09, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Your argument is invalid. We are not adding Chinese name to the article, we are adding hanja. Last time I checked, hanja is still part of the Korean language. Kowloonese 22:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

My point is that the Google count is irrelevant, because it is inaccurate.--Endroit 20:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

why is it inaccurate? what contradicts google's korean language result?Appleby 20:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The Google counts are not accurate for this Hanja (大宇) for the reasons already stated. Well, that is my opinion. You should ask for other people's opinions also, and try to reach some kind of a concensus.--Endroit 20:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

what reason is that? you didn't search korean language results, & you haven't explained why not. why are you counting chinese language results to find korean language local usage? i don't understand how this could be a matter of subjective opinion, when korean language results are 1688:1 for hangul. Appleby 20:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

You should search only korean pages encoded in Unicode only. All korean pages encoded in hangul is biased because 大宇 cannot be encoded in hangul. Kowloonese 22:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The global search results should be inclusive of the Korean language results, and so it is more universal. So I DID include the Korean counts. And Hanja is official in Korea, China, and Japan, so why omit it? Finally, Appleby POV says 1688:1, and Endroit POV say 2:1, and we have a deadlock with respect to the interpretation of Google counts. We really should be asking for other people's opinions before you do anything unilaterally.--Endroit 20:27, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

it's not a pov, the purpose of the infobox is to show local language script & pronunciation, which means you don't count chinese or japanese pages. if you do a search for the chinese characters for coca cola, of course you will get chinese pages, but chinese characters don't go into coca cola infobox. i just don't understand what you're trying to say. i will rfc. Appleby 20:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, what Appleby did was a disservice to this encyclopedia. The hanja provided a piece of encyclopedic information regarding the etymology and the history of the name. Such information is valid but not easy to find from google. If you search for both 대우 and 大宇 in advanced Google search and restrict your result to korean pages only, you will see that 大宇 is mentioned in many korean articles about the corporation. The ratio of google results is irrelevant because it only represents the present and popular usage, it does not represent the historical aspect. Likewise, if you search for Madonna by the singer's real name you will also find that "Madonna" outnumber her real name by 1 million to one. Is such ratio relevant enough to remove her real name from the an encyclopedic article about the singer? The nature of etymology is that usage of the language evolves, but current usage does not eliminate the need to mention former usage and its evolution process in an encyclopedic article. Imagine if a researcher is looking up the early history of this corporation from old sources such as 40 year old newspapers in an archive, looking up 대우 may not be sufficient, but he would not know he could also look up 大宇 because Appleby decided that when Google does not have it in 2005, then it is not encyclopedic information. I argue that Appleby is missing the point totally and misused the Google results without consideration of information that preexisted the Web and Google. I vote to restore all hanja information that was demaged by Appleby in the past few days for historical reasons. Kowloonese 20:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The Hanja 大宇 is authentically Korean, and used officially by Daewoo. It is not some jibberish or something that any Wikipedian made up. There's no need to delete it.--Endroit 20:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

it is not used officially by daewoo in korean or english, or by the people of its base country today. i think we're forgetting that this is the english wikipedia & does not exist for the convenience of chinese readers. you will see that in virtually all other articles about companies based in non-english-speaking countries, you will not even find the local language script or pronunciation. i actually think there's no need for even the hangul infobox for modern korean corporations here, but may be helpful to a tiny fraction of english wikipedia readers who can also read the local language of the company's country. but chinese characters are not a significant part of the local language usage, some people are confusing personal fluency in chinese characters with the purpose of the english wikipedia. Appleby 20:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

One can do a lot of demage with a bot and a wrong intention. I noticed that Appleby have removed hanja from many more articles. Seem to me that he/she tries to eliminate hanja from the Korean language, that may be motivated by some anti-Chinese nationalism. Before such grassroot movement to change the language becomes successful, please restore hanja because it is still part of the current Korean language. Kowloonese 20:52, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The Korean language names for BOTH Hangul AND Hanja have been determined to be valuable under the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Korean). Most people participating in that discussion have determined that it would be better to keep Hanja, in general. So there's no excuse for deleting Hanja information... it is against concensus there, to delete Hanja. I suggest we move this entire Hanja vs. No Hanja discussion back to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean).--Endroit 21:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

kowloonese, please feel free to provide evidence of hanja as a significant part of korean local usage for any korea-related article that i modified. i was careful to not remove hanja from any historical or china/japan-related contexts, or even geographical or any names of historical figures, or even most contemporaneous people whose hanja names are not known to 99% of koreans. if i made any errors, please let me know.

i do understand your previous point about historical usage, & don't mean to be dismissive. yes, more trivial information could always theoretically help one more person, but there has to be a limit to the triviality. how many english-speaking researchers of daewoo can read korean, & what fraction of those can also read hanja, & even for those people, what tiny, if any, percent of source material about daewoo is in hanja that's not already available in hangul?

(for those coming from rfc, Hangul is the korean script for the Korean language, which historically used Hanja (chinese characters) in combination with hangul. hanja is rarely used today in korea, except for specific contexts, much as latin is used in the united states in very limited contexts.) Appleby 20:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Hangul only carries the phonetic info, just like using English alphabets. Yes it is true that meaning can be associated with the pronunication, every English speaker knows that. On the other hand, Hanja carries additional meanings and also disambig any homonym usage. Hanja usage is espcially common in names if not daily terminologies. I just visited the Daewoo website and bumped into the CEO's page and right there he put his autograph in hanja. If Hanja is not important to the Korean language any more why didn't he sign in Hangul? Another technology artifact is affecting the usage of Hanja on the internet. I don't think a webpage can include hanja when it uses the hangul encoding. Hanja can be use only when the webpage is encoded in Unicode. The lack of frequent hanja usage on the web can be explained by the popularity of Unicode usage in Korean webpage, it does not truely reflect the real hanja usage in the Korean language. Kowloonese 21:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

i am trying very hard to avoid this becoming a nationalistic debate. the older generation is certainly more fluent in hanja, & hanja is still used in some contexts for personal names, which is why i generally did not change the biographical articles. (however, most contemporary actors/athletes/singers/popular culture figures do not use hanja in public, & koreans generally don't know the hanja for their names, but that's another topic). hanja can indeed be included in korean language pages, & you will occasionally see them, but it is obvious how rare it is in today's usage. i think it comes down to the purpose of the infobox. again, i don't think it's even necessary at all, & is not consistent with other wikipedia articles on non-english names of international companies. but if we do include in for local language purpose, a peripheral trivia itself, do we go even further than that for etymological research? Appleby 21:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

No, you DON'T put foreign names in the article unless it is native to the topic. In this case Daewoo started out as a Korean company, regardless of its current status, the hanja name 大宇 is native to this topic and still part of its history, therefore it should stay. Kowloonese 22:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

What we are dealing with is about spelling reform and it's a controversial subject. People have different opinions depending on their age group, native tongue etc. There are plenty of examples. Some are still in hot debate (e.g. replacing Traditional Chinese with Simplified Chinese) and some have already settled (e.g. replacing chu nom with quoc ngu in Vietnamese). I understand Appleby's POV is that the Korean situation is getting very similar to Vietnamese in the last century, the use of chu nom was getting scarcer and they were practically non-existent this century. However, I don't agree Korean has reached the same point as Vietnamese yet. You can still find plenty of examples of hanja in Korean webpages. Besides, an encyclopedia should preserve this kind of information a little longer than popular publications. What else can you look into if you cannot find it in encyclopedia? Kowloonese 22:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Everything I've read on learning the Korean language mentions Hanja. I would say most reasonable people agree Hanja is important in Korea. The Hanja version of a name of anything in Korea would be helpful for english speakers to know. I believe it should be in the article and the inclusion of the Hanja name by itself does not impart a point of view.--Gbleem 21:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I think we should move the debate back to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean) as Endroit suggested earlier, since what is happening isn't based on any resolution that we reached. From our debate, I was left with the impression that almost everyone either wanted the hanja or at least wasn't advocating a purge of most of them, and although Appleby had proposed a plan for reform, it would have had to be ironed out to make most of us happy, and implemented later. I certainly wasn't expecting a whole set of new templates and hundreds of uncommented modifications in period of under 24 hours. This is getting a bit out of hand; if we can't resolve this easily, perhaps we should request mediation? -- Calcwatch 22:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I've created a Hanja vs. No Hanja section in Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean). There is also a voting section there; please just put I oppose or I support (or some variation) with brief explanation if possible, and sign it. Thank you.--Endroit 23:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

parenthetically, i'm not sure what you guys mean when you say hanja cannot be encoded in korean language webpages for technical reasons. these korean language pages include hanja [3]. forgive my ignorance, what is the difference between these pages & "unicoded" pages? Appleby 23:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

My statement was assuming some of these pages were encoded in hangul only and not the KS X 1001:1992 Korean character set. You are right that if the korean pages are coded in ISO-2022-KR, EUC-KR, Jahab or Unified Hangul Code (UHC) encoding methods, then hanja can be in these pages, just like in Unicode. In the google search that you provided above, the pages were returned in EUC-KR or Unicode encoding, so my statement may not apply if no korean page is encoded in hangul. Kowloonese 23:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I Live in Venezuela and the Brand Daewoo still exists!!

I Live in Venezuela and the Brand Daewoo still exists!!

In Australia too. The article says that the conglomerate has been dismantled, and the motor division (including brand) bought by GM. It seems they rebadge some, but sell others as Daewoos. --Singkong2005 08:14, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, Brand is still alive. Eventhough the DAEWOO group itself is liquidated, brand "DAEWOO" is still alive among the companies that were once under the group. Such as DAEWOO electronics.

Daewoo Motor Sales

There's a stub article, Daewoo Motor Sales - I don't know if it's separate from Daewoo Motors, or if it should be merged here. Just letting you all know. -Singkong2005 08:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the Corporations section.

I changed most of the descriptions to be more neutral; for example, I changed "excelling in creating" to "which created". I made the descriptions past tense; if I'm wrong, please correct it. I don't know Daewoo, only English. Tagus 04:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Used to work there

From 1985-89 I worked for the Electronics Group at Daewoo. The article as posted is too kind to the company and it's founder. He did loot the company as others have said, and wrecked a lot of careers here in the US.

Aside from the preferential treatment Daewoo received from the government; they had a business model that kept them in the black while their American subsidiaries were being drained of cash.

When I would forecast how many units of a particular product would sell in a given quarter, Daewoo would keep kicking the forecasts back until I set the level at the amount of money they felt they needed. As soon as the products left the harbor in Korea; Daewoo would get paid by the government. At that point, I usually had 60 days to move the inflated orders through the different sales channels before doing another bogus forecast.

Daewoo did not care how the products were sold or even if they functioned properly. Once they had been paid it was our problem. We had to warehouse excess inventory, repair poor quality equipment and deal with the law suits on our dime. Even though we were part of Daewoo Electronics, their concerns ended at the shoreline. It was our responsibility to pay the Korean government for the goods and deal with any problems within the US.

Eventually, you couldn't give away a product with Daewoo involvement and most of my Division took what ever jobs that were available elsewhere. After I left, I couldn't help but laugh at the failure of the company. All the time that they were robbing their American divisions, they were in turn being cheated out of billions by their management

a155mm 22:34, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Note These pages are for discussing the article and crafting the article, not the subject of the article. Your story, while interesting, is anecdotal -- and it doesn't belong here. 842U (talk) 22:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Why is this article so ugly?

Hi all, I'm just wondering why

1. there are no photos or pictures
2. it's incoherent
3. there seems to be a lot of vandalism (who has something against Daewoo anyway?)
4. there are lots of odd templates; why not add those bloody sources if there's a kiloton of text?

Just take a look at the German and Spanish versions...

--Sigmundur (talk) 13:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

2009 Update

Hello! As I did for the GM Daewoo page, I will try to update the Daewoo Group page too. If you have any idea or suggestion... Feel free to post it here, as usual! Cheers Daewooarca (talk) 19:54, 22 November 2009 (UTC)