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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 68.36.111.17 (talk) at 19:34, 27 November 2009 (→Characteristics: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Hey! Lets make up our own Sub Genre

Hey kids do you know of 3 bands that sound a tiny tad different that something is already pimped by so called independent music writers?

THEN

Make up your own sub Genre of it!!! You can do do that on this this called Wikipedia. Because you can make it up, and get it verified because of the 3 bands that you know. THAT'S ALL IT TAKES KIDS TO START YOUR OWN SUB-GENERE. AND IT WILL GET LISTED, VERIFIED, AND CODIFIED BY WIKIPEDIA. Hey my dog started a new sub genere with his new band, I better go set up a new sub genre listing in Wikipedia

I'm afraid your article will get deleted after awhile, unless you work for AMG or Rolling Stone, in which case you can make up all the genres you want since you'll be a reliable source and provide citations RKFS (talk) 00:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Real" screamo

All the comments here complaining about what's here referred to as the "second wave" of screamo are misunderstanding how Wikipedia works. Just so we're perfectly clear: I don't like Thursday, or the Used or any of these so-called screamo groups. I have no interest in advocating them. I like groups like Orchid and Swing Kids. However, *very* prominent sources *do* call Thursday (The New York Times, no less), screamo. Wikipedia is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive. So we can't pretend like The New York Times doesn't exist, and that screamo only refers to Heroin or Angel Hair or pg. 99 or whatever your favorite underground band is. I understand that "second wave" is not the best term -- because there's not much relationship between the two groupings of bands -- but there has to be some way of indicating there are two uses of the term "screamo", and further -- and this is important -- we, the Wikipedia community, don't actually have the right to declare one usage invalid based on our distaste. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a place for advocacy; it's a place to make sense of how these terms are used in the media. Further, I don't think any of the original screamo groups even particularly liked the term. The best source I've found on the San Diego scene certainly indicates that those bands weren't fond of being called "screamo". So it's not really a hallowed term that needs to be defended. Aryder779 (talk) 20:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We should include a reliable source that says "screamo" has been misinterpreted by some in the media, then document the instances of this, and then reliably source the bands' real genres, or if that's too "prescriptive" then the genres they'd like to be called, or that they don't like being called screamo. That gets rid of both problems. --Pwnage8 (talk) 20:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a great idea -- I've just never turned up a reliable source that makes the misusage clear. It would be great if someone did. Aryder779 (talk) 20:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is a great idea, but good luck finding a source for that. — FatalError 06:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There arent any sources which EXPLICITLY state that the term has been misused, however if you compare the characteristics of the original form to the current style, it becomes obvious that the term has been misused. You dont need sources for everything, sometimes you just have to use common sense.--SilverOrion (talk) 07:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you agree if New York Times would call Iron Maiden rapcore? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.94.18 (talk) 10:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant guidelines here are Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The problem is that "screamo" is used so prevalently to describe Used/Thursday et. al. that we have to address it. Do a Google search for "screamo", I'm positive the vast majority of the hits will turn up stuff referring to the "second wave". It would be fantastic if we could find any reliable, published source that provides perspective on the apparent misusage, but we don't have one yet. I'm sure one will turn up soon. Aryder779 (talk) 14:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't prove anything. Calling band screamo, doesn't make it screamo. Sound makes. I would agree with this The Used/Thursday = screamo, if first wave-sounding screamo would be dead, but there's very alive & kickin' screamo scene in Europe. Just week ago, Cry Me a River fest took place in Germany. If you don't know, then it's real screamo festival. Nice proof that real, or better, original screamo still exists. Weirdest thnig is that The used & Thursday both sound more post-hardcore than screamo. And post-hardcore they are. They're influenced mostly by late 90's post-hardcore bands like At The Drive-In. Listen to yourself - Thursday is much more like At The Drive-In (post-hc), than Saetia (screamo). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.94.18 (talk) 19:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But that's original research. We know that not everything the New York Times says is true, especially with music genres, but according to Wikipedia's policies, we have to use what they say. Verifiability, not truth. SilverOrion, that would be synthesis of published material. We aren't supposed to jump to any conclusions about a topic without at least one source supporting that conclusion. WP:NOR uses that example here. "'A and B, therefore C' is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." What you're saying would be a "A and B, therefore C" situation. However, if we can find at least one source to back that up, it would be fine. — FatalError 02:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I came across several sources, however none of them would pass the reliablity test.--SilverOrion (talk) 03:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, same here. fourfa.com is a good website, but unfortunately it's self-published so it probably wouldn't work, and it has more stuff about emo than screamo. — FatalError 06:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
spiritus-temporis.com, at the bottom it says "In recent years, the term "screamo" has been misused very commonly to describe emo, post-punk, alternative rock, metalcore, or hardcore bands with emo influences".--SilverOrion (talk) 08:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would love to cite that, but I couldn't find out what the website was. I'm afraid someone might say that it's not "reliable."Punkrockrunner (talk) 20:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)punkrockrunner[reply]

Okay, now I see. But couldn't we mention both second wave 'real' screamo & bands labeled screamo nowadays in the article? It's weird that Europe screamo scene is toally ignored. France & Italy are full of 'old-school' sounding screamo bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.94.18 (talk) 08:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Find a source, add them to the article, and describe their relationship to the sound! I'm actually really curious about European screamo -- I've heard of groups like Systral through Orchid, but don't know much about them. We just need some kind of third-party source relating to their work. I think it's ok if it's not in English. Aryder779 (talk) 14:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't contribute any sources to the European screamo thing, but I'll drop a small list of names that you might be able to use in your search. They're all from Europe(and of course, all screamo). 'Louise Cyphre', 'La Quiete', 'Raein', 'A Fine Boat, That Coffin!', 'Am I Dead Yet!', 'Amanda Woodward', 'Apoplexy Twist Orchestra', 'Aussitôt Mort', 'Battle of Wolf 359', 'A Case of Grenada', 'Daïtro', 'Danse Macabre', 'The Death of Anna Karina', 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?', 'Endless Inertia', 'A Flower Kollapsed', 'Gantz', 'Gone With The Pain', 'June Paik', 'Kaospilot', 'khere', 'Kill.Kim.Novak', 'Killed By Malaise', 'Kontrapunkt', 'Mr Willis of Ohio', 'Only For The Sake of Aching', 'Singaia', 'Trainwreck', 'Sed Non Satiata' --Sasarai (talk) 00:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


How about just listening to the darn music and stop trying to label music. You can't. 24.35.35.224 (talk) 08:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Simply categorizing something because it fits under certain criteria is mostly objective. So something is of a genre despite what anyone else thinks. So what people are trying to do here is define that criteria, NOT which bands fall under the name screamo. That comes afterwards. --Sasarai (talk) 00:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I disagree about the objectivity of genres. Wikipedia has a nominalist epistemology (to be totally pretentious about it) -- genre labels come from the way they are used, by published sources. We can stitch together a case for the traits in common that seem to indicate a genre, but I don't think that classification will ever be "objective". I find this whole project really challenging, actually, and doing research on this subject has let me know just how little most music journalists think about what they do. The funny thing is, on screamo, message boards seem a lot more thoughtful than published sources. Thanks very much for the suggestions on European screamo -- I've looked some of them up and heard some of it -- especially the French stuff and it deserves to be covered in this article. I haven't been able to find a good published source on the matter, though, even in French. Aryder779 (talk) 18:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point. By the way, would zines be an acceptable source? Or a record label(such as the german React With Protest, who organises Cry Me A River festival every year, the biggest screamo festival in the world) or distro(Such as Bis Auf Messer, the distro owned by Zann, a german screamo band) perhaps? Also, wouldn't it be easier to just find a source that links modern screamo to the older screamo? Such as publications simply referring back to Portraits of Past, Swing Kids or another band already established as screamo to describe their sound? --78.20.181.168 (talk) 20:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think zines are a perfectly good source for this page. I wish I had some of my old copies of HeartattaCk, Punk Planet or Maximum Rock'n'roll. I think record labels are ok too, but if it comes directly from them it has to be considered a self-published source -- which is iffy, but sort of ok. I also think it's probably alright to interpret certain groups as classic screamo -- so if a band says that their main influences are Swing Kids, Antioch Arrow and Angel Hair, I would say that's a tacit self-description as "screamo". There's always a fine line between interpretation and original research, which is one of the challenging and stimulating things about this project. Aryder779 (talk) 17:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, that pretty much allows us to add a part about modern screamo. But it does nothing to disprove the validity of the whole "second wave" sound. I think that is impossible considering the whole nominalist epistemology thing you mentioned earlier. I think the best thing to do is to go in depth about the fact that a lot of people in the know disagree with the claim that bands with a sound such as Thursday can be called screamo and so on. I might try to write it later if I have some time. --Sasarai (talk) 09:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found an interview with Louise Cyphre who are largely regarded as the biggest screamo band of the European scene. http://www.shootmeagain.com/?section=interviews&read=39&version=vo It talks about their influences and some other stuff about the screamo scene and genre. However, I can't incorporate this in the article myself. I hope someone else can. --Sasarai (talk) 14:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is an awful lot of work for an article based around a "genre" that doesn't exist. --Miikro (talk) 02:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Skramz

I think we're making a lot of progress with the article. I'd still like to incorporate the term "Skramz" in there somewhere. I'll try to find reliable sources. I've seen Aryder cited some things people from Comadre said from a source I contributed earlier. The singer from Comadre used the term "Skramz" when talking to me at a show once. Of course, it's anecdotal. Also, would it be possible to create a list of screamo bands(that differentiates between the first and second "waves") or aren't we that far yet? --Sasarai (talk) 12:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I really appreciated that Comadre article; it provided some things that needed to be said. It would be good if we could find an NPOV source on "skramz" -- everything I've found on it is related to Internet forums.
As for lists of screamo bands -- they're discouraged under Wikipedia guidelines: Wikipedia:Embedded list. I think it's best that we continue to add lists of bands in sentence form, perhaps grouped together by their geographical origin or distinctive style. Aryder779 (talk) 21:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'skramz' is a ridiculous term, but at least it differentiates. Either way, its pretty informally used, you'd be hard pressed to find a reliable source on it.122.106.53.121 (talk) 10:08, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SECOND WAVE!?

Bands like The Used and Thursday should be better classified as 2nd Wave Post-hardcore —Preceding unsigned comment added by Himynameisnick (talk • contribs) 03:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:NOR. Aryder779 (talk) 23:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

you need more pics

Bold textyou should update your pics . not all emo girls look like that . incase you didn't know there are black emo girls too .... just not a lot ...but i am one...xD just thought i let you know —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emogirl532 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SOFIXIT -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other mentions

Other sites mention City of Caterpillar, Angel Hair, After School Knife Fight, Neil Perry, and Envy as Screamo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.94.16.68 (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are they reliable sites? If so you may be able to gain consensus on this talk page that they should be noted within the article. If the sites are blogs, personal web pages, chat forums, well, they do not meet Wikipedia's standards for sources and will be removed from the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know AllMusic has City of Caterpillar listed as screamo, and having heard some of their stuff, I think it's very consistent with screamo. Also lists Envy as the same. Not sure about the others. (Albert Mond (talk) 01:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Zines as sources?

A little under a year ago, Aryder suggested that zines would be a perfectly good source for this article. Unfortunately, afaik, "zines" as a category are not considered reliable sources on Wikipedia. I think that this is a problem, particularly in the context of underground music, in which zines are the principal organ of dissemination of a lot of this information. Does anyone know if there is any way to get a blanket exemption sanctioning the use of indie/punk/hardcore/etcetera samizdat materials for the discussion of related topics? As I see it, this is almost of a piece with the general problem I have seen of articles about influential but low-selling musicians getting nn'ed by squares. KASchmidt (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean by zine, but I'm sure established examples like Maximum Rock'n'Roll would count. Not very low circulation self-published zines, though. Is there a zine you want to use as a source that other editors are vetoing? I feel like these things can be worked out by the community of editors on a page by page basis, at least until the point of GA nomination. Aryder779 (talk) 02:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fermium?

I noticed in the second wave characteristics bit, the last line references experimentation with rap. However, the band mentioned does not have a Wikipedia article as of yet, and I highly doubt they or that line meet notability guidelines. Also, I am skeptical as to whether or not the experimentation with rap mentioned actually signifies a significant event in screamo, or even relates to it at all for that matter, as Crunkcore groups such as Brokencyde and Family Force Five have been mislabled as screamo in the past. As such, I am baleeting this line for now. (Albert Mond (talk) 07:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Characteristics

I really don't think the information for the first wave musical characteristics expounds on the topic enough. I found a great description of it awhile ago, but technically i think it would be considered original research (i found it as a description on a video on youtube). also, shouldn't the "jazziness" of the style be noted more prominently?

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