Talk:Australian Democrats

Previous discussions: Archive 1

Edits apparently based on recent reorientation of party

I note that a new IP user, 210.56.86.103 (Talk) has made edits with the effect of removing some long-established content to bring the article into line with recent changes to the party's official website and in accord with a promotional media release dated 12 December 2009. It would, of course, be less than charitable to suggest that there may be a POV component in such edits in the absence of prior discussion on this page. However, I have suggested to the user that s/he consider discussing substantive changes. In the meantime, I think it's reasonable to undo or modify some of the edits pending such discussion. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 14:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Further to the above, pending further invited discussion, I have:

• Reverted 'political position' from centrist back to centre-left, on the basis that the ALP is classed as centre-left, and there may be doubt whether the AD is positioned to the right of the ALP
• Reverted The party is based on five core beliefs of Freedom, Equality, Sustainability, Responsibility and Representation. The party maintains strong support for direct democracy. . .to the previously established version, cited to the party's foundation literature. Since the party is now repositioning itself with "new language of core beliefs", there is undoubtedly scope for inclusion of the new language, but its placement must not unduly disrupt the article. Perhaps there needs to be a new section (or subsection under 2009) to contain the new content which has little relevance to the bulk of the article, set in the past. We cannot accept the notion that the top of the Wikipedia article is up for radical amendment each time the Democrats' official website is changed.

I am of the opinion that the top section of the article has become cluttered with details more appropriate to following sections, and needs to be rewritten to be made more succinct and interesting to the general reader. (I will have a go at this and paste my version here first-up.) Cheers Bjenks (talk) 16:12, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with all of this. The central problem with the article as it stands is that the history section ends in 1991, skips the Coulter, Kernot and Lees eras entirely, and then descends into a right mess with the last few years. If that was cleaned up so there was a sensible section on the post-2007 Democrats, it'd be much easier to integrate any information on their rebuilding efforts. Rebecca (talk) 16:41, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Rebecca that there are substantial problems with the construction of the article, my deletions were largely to remove unfounded comments or irrelevant detail which did not contribute to the strength of the article. Changes were not that substantive to warrant extensive discussion, although admittedly what did begin as a general tidy did end up becoming more considerable than planned.

It is perfectly appropriate to revise the article to include its new language and reference to the rebuild - which is not related to 'Electoral Fortunes' - which is where the 2009 section falls. Have moved that back to the top section, with corrections: Rebuilding activity began well before Winderlich left (in April - see date of initial rebuilding press release on the Party's website) and the liberal welcoming material appeared in response to Liberal Party changes, not simultaneously with either the rebuild beginning or Winderlich departing. You also implied the orginal principles have been replaced by the beliefs - which isn't accurate either, the 3 principles, 5 core beliefs and 23 objectives all work together as a matrix to define what the party believes in and stands for. I felt the principles were being misrepresented and the beliefs were more relevant in that place, however have used some compromise language there.

Have reverted Centre-Left back to Centre as the party was founded as a centre party - if you are going to insist on foundation language then it should be consistent. Aside from a recent sway left the Australian Democrats have always been to the right of the ALP. Additionally if you look at the definition of social liberalism it says centre, not centre left, elsewhere in the article it refers to the party's centrist position.

It would appear that Bjenks is politically biased - particularly through the misquoting of Jaench, and other unsubstantiated content which reflects more poorly on the organisation than is justified or is simply wrong. Suggest if Bjenks is unable to contain said bias that s/he is prevented from editing the page. --210.56.81.153 (talk) 05:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Further to the above, the following lines are not relevant to electoral success and need to be relocated or deleted:

2006: On 5 January 2006, the ABC reported that the Tasmanian Electoral Commission had de-registered that branch of the party for failing to provide a list containing the required number of members.[15]

In early July, Richard Pascoe, national and South Australian party president, resigned, citing slumping opinion polls and the poor result in the 2006 South Australian election as well as South Australian parliamentary leader Sandra Kanck's comments regarding the drug MDMA which he saw as damaging to the party.[17][18][19]

On 28 August 2006, the founder of the Australuan Democrats, Don Chipp, died. Former prime minister Bob Hawke said: "... there is a coincidental timing almost between the passing of Don Chipp and what I think is the death throes of the Democrats[21]." (need to fix the typo in that line too)

2007: On 13 September 2007, the ACT Democrats (Australian Capital Territory Division of the party) was deregistered[26] by the ACT Electoral Commissioner, being unable to demonstrate a minimum membership of 100 electors. As as result the party was ineligible to contest the ACT election in October 2008.--210.56.81.153 (talk) 06:23, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Reply: OK, I am accused of "political bias" on the basis of my interpretation of this Dean Jaensch quote:

there could be a shift towards Independents. Not necessarily Democrats, but if Democrats can get their act together, get their numbers, find some money, run campaigns, you never know, there might be a way back. Federally it's very difficult. Winning Senate seats is not easy and it's going to take more than just 1000 new Democrat members in South Australia to bring that achievement. So, I think it's harder for the Democrats to get back at the federal level.

My précis of this was "it was doubtful whether the Democrats could make a political comeback in the federal arena". The IP editor prefers: "it was possible the Democrats could make a political comeback in the federal arena". Very well, let's be more literal and make it It's very difficult. . . etc. Then, I would challenge my puristic accuser, at 210.56.81.153 (talk), being explicitly opposed to bias, to make here a plain statement that he/she has no connection with the Australian Democrats such as might influence attempts to manipulate the Wikipedia article in such a way as to serve the electoral interests of that party. For my own part, I unequivocally declare that I have no political party membership or allegiance which might affect my judgement. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 06:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Reply: Your interpretation is still incorrect. Jaench says it would be more difficult at a federal leval than a state level, but the thrust of the comments (and I heard the interview live) was that it is possible. My connection to the party is as a political science academic who has studied the Democrats at length, and thought given the substantial changes to the party in the last 9 months these changes should be reflected. The Jaench quote was not the only cause for my belief that you have some political bias, but your numerous inaccurate edits with an unwarranted negative tone. --210.56.81.153 (talk) 06:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Answer I welcome the open discussion. It is a pity this did not eventuate when I first issued an invitation to another IP editor here. But there is no need to assume bad faith or use ad-hominem taunts in discussion. Please feel free to revise any of my edits, as per WP:IMPERFECT and WP:PRESERVE. However, if you are indeed "a political science academic", you will appreciate the desirability of providing properly cited replacement content, and not merely deleting contested matter without explanation, as you have been doing. Why not also register yourself as a user to further facilitate understanding? Cheers Bjenks (talk) 07:45, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Publication of Monthly Journal

It is a fact, verifiable by the minutes of the Australian Democrats' national executive meeting at Brisbane in July 1993, that monthly publication of the members' National Journal was ended at that time, to be replaced by less-frequent issues of publications which would more effectively serve the interests of the parliamentary party, ie, senators. An IP editor has attempted to delete this crucial information, saying that monthly journals are now being published. I have restored the content and asked that the IP editor consider adding the information that monthly publication was later resumed (on a date to be specified). A free-discussion monthly journal was (/is?) the means by which members' participation in policy, admin and other ballots could be guaranteed across Australia. It was therefore at the heart of the Democrats' early growth and success, and its withdrawal was arguably more in the interest of top-down leadership that bottom-up participatory democracy . Cheers Bjenks (talk) 06:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

The journal was published at less frequest intervals, it did not cease publication, and was merged later on in to the national journal which is published approximately 6 times per year, the records of which are held in the National Library of Australia collection. All publications and indeed policy process becam less frequent during the party's greater periods of turmoil, but never ceased entirely. That the party altered procedures is not grounds for the commentary that members were being less involved in policy - indeed commentary generally is unnecessary and I thought not welcome in wikipedia land. The policy development process, as I understand it, now includes a member-only access wiki and forums where members can see and discuss the policy in any stage of development as well as publications in the journal, so your comments are also inaccurate. --210.56.81.153 (talk) 10:33, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Centre-left or centre?

I'm not a fan of the left-right-centre parlance, so will leave this issue to others. I recommend a revisit of the old Liberal Movement vs Australia Party dichotomy in quest of an explanation for current reinterpretations. Cheers Bjenks (talk) 07:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)