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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 84.240.42.28 (talk) at 00:24, 6 January 2006 (Why "Yeshua Hanatzri Vemelech Hayehudim" is missing?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Removed Jehovah's Witnesses's massive re-editing which forced a reader to conclude that their "jehovah" is the only reasonable pronunciation of YHWH. 17:00 3 Dec 2005

Discussions from July 2002-July 2004 are archived here. Compare to e.g. the page as it was in April 2004. Topics covered include merge with Yahweh, see the last version of Yahweh before the merge, the Jehovah Witnesses (of course!), and an edit war over Jehovah vs. Yahweh in May 2004. The talk seems to indicate that the page was protected for a while, but I could find no mention in the relevant protection log archive. Summarized and archived by Gadykozma 06:14, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A discussion from September 2004 is archived here (I left a number of minor discussions from the same period on the main page). Lots of information about the Tetragrammaton with Niqqud in medieval texts was presented, and some of it made it way to the page, which was refactored as a result. Compare the page before and after. Summarized and archived by Gadykozma 15:30, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Readers will be aware that the lead article states that the tetragrammaton consists of four Hebrew vowels, whereas other references within the entry indicate or state that the four characters are consonants. Perhaps someone should clarify this and ensure that there is some unity of definition, if one exists.--213.120.56.33 23:06, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The text clearly explains this issue with the Hebrew language. Please read the article again. --Zappaz 05:39, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. I think I see what you mean..."vowels used as semi-consonants" etc. In my ignorance I have been confused by the frequent references (to the four characters of the tetragrammaton) as 'consonants' in other sources. So, really I should think of the four 'letters' as perhaps neither consonants nor vowels, but as simply as 'characters'. Thanks Zappaz. (If I've got it clear now, I'll delete my query in due course. Shall I delete your answer at the same time?)--212.140.159.206 16:56, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Poll: nominate?

I wonder if we should nominate this page for show on the Wp main page? I think it is excellent! Clear concise and understandable even if you know little about Hebrew, even ancient hebrew. Not too technical. Etc, etc... Am I jumping the gun? george 23:30, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jehova

I want to question the sentence: "It is thought by some, and disputed by others, that the pronunciation "Jehovah" is a combination of the consonants of the tetragrammaton with the vowels of Adonai, and historically recent." - I would like to see a relevant scholarly source that questions this. It is a fact. Hatef patah [a] under ' (aleph) turns into shewa [e] under yod. I suggest rephrasing. -- 213.81.195.98 18:06, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

213.81.195.98

The new Wikipedia Article the Tetragrammaton in the Bible deals with this issue in a little more detail.

Seeker02421 11:50, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hebrew grammer

I changed the text "He Causes to Become" at one place to "He will cause to become", since if you indeed think of it as the verb [הוה] in the 3rd building [פיעל], it is a future form. Should I fix it in other places or explain that it is customary to consider this as present even though grammatically it is future? Also this text: Yahweh-Asher-Yahweh is obviously wrong, but I am not sure how to correct it. Was the Hebrew original present [יהוה אשר הוה] or future [יהוה אשר יהיה]? Can someone who knows his way around fix it?

There was no answer (the question is here since September 16) so I just deleted this. Gadykozma 01:29, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the tense, tense is often very confused in Biblical Hebrew. The first thing that comes to mind is the Song of the Sea: "אז ישיר משה" (literally "Then Moses will sing"), when it should reasonably be "אז שר משה" ("Then Moses sang") in context. This happens often in Biblical Hebrew.

As to the second, I know of one place that mentions anything like it: Exodus 3:14. As you can see, there it's pronounced "eyeh asher eyeh", but it's also in the first person rather than the third and in the basic (פָּעַל) rather than the intensive (פִּעֵל) construction. —Simetrical (talk) 23:48, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I wish to thank whoever deleted my previous link to the Melchizedek article. I share your concern to keep articles on track and to eliminate extraneous material that overburdens them. I am also aware of the hoary dispute over relative primacy between archaeologists and philologists. It was not my intention to violate the former nor to re-open the latter. Devers is an archaeologist with, I feel, an outstanding reputation. The late Ephraim Speiser was a scholar of Semitic languages and professor and chairman of Oriental Studies at the University of Pennsylvania; he translated Genesis for the Anchor Bible series. I simply thought readers might be interested in the appearance of the word “Yahweh” in a non-Hebrew Old Testament context, according to Speiser, dating to perhaps 200 hundred years earlier than the one mentioned in the text of the original article. This would push the “origin” of “Ya” (the presumed original form of “Yahweh”)back even further than supposed. I thought the link fit in better here than under the Meaning or Transcription sections. My current rephrasing the link should be acceptable. 217.230.181.218 13:01, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)Eypper217.230.181.218 13:01, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC) Incidentally, the Melchizedek article does indeed mention Yahweh, and more importantly cites Speiser's translation and commentary on Genesis, where the full details can be found. 217.230.181.218 13:17, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)Eypper217.230.181.218 13:17, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The link does not mention any specific non-Hebrew texts, but merely assumes that parts of the Hebrew Bible originally came from non-Hebrew texts. Jayjg 14:57, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Eypper, just referring to the Melchizedek isn't clear enough. I went to that article and couldn't see how it's relevant. If you have relevant information, just add it directly (you may refer to the Melchizedek article in addition). Do not assume Jayjg removed your comment since he disagreed with you. 90% of the deletes are due to style, not disagreement.
Incidently, if you want to know who edited your text, hit the history button on the top of the page. Gadykozma 20:39, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

JW position on origin of "Jehova"

The article states that "On their own official website under the heading "How Is God's Name Pronounced?", the Watchtower Society acknowledges that Jehovah does not have the correct vowels."

It goes beyond this: "When it came to God's name, instead of putting the proper vowel signs around it, in most cases they put other vowel signs to remind the reader that he should say 'Adho·nai'. From this came the spelling Iehouah, and, eventually, Jehovah became the accepted pronunciation of the divine name in English. This retains the essential elements of God's name from the Hebrew original."

So the Watchtower Society acknowledges that the vowels from Jehova come from the vowels of Adhonai. So I doubt the following sentence from the Wikipedia article "However, some Jehovah's Witnesses emphatically deny this explanation for the origin of the reading, which they consider to be correct. " And even if this might be the case for some JW who are not well aware of their own publications, I would at least like to see the following sentence "On their own official website under the heading "How Is God's Name Pronounced?", the Watchtower Society acknowledges that Jehovah does not have the correct vowels." changed to "On their official website ... under the heading "How Is God's Name Pronounced?" acknowledges this fact" or "agrees with this explanation"

Heiko Evermann 18:52, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Editors for Wikipedia Article on "Iaoue" Article wanted

This newly created Wikipedia Article on "Iaoue" needs to be edited. Are there any volunteers here, who would edit this Wikipedia Article on "Iaoue" which supports the pronunciation "Yahweh"?

Seeker02421 09:12, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I edited this pretty heavily. Some of the discussion was just summarized in the text of the article, since this is an Encyclopedia, not a research journal. Question about Hebrew: I thought that I had the niqqud for "Yahweh" correct in my Unicode character map, but the combining characters don't seem to be combining in Mozilla -- is that a Mozilla font problem, or have I made an error in the Unicode? Mpolo 09:37, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
There is no way to get niqqud working properly in even a reasonable subset of browsers. If you must demonstrate niqqud, add a picture. Gadykozma 13:31, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
O.K. I put an image there instead. I was so excited when I figured out how to put the niqqud on the letters, too. Ah well. (This is really tempting me to actually get around to learning Hebrew, you know. Curse you, Wikipedia! First you eat all my free time in editing, then you make me want to learn another language "for fun"!) Mpolo 14:10, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
If you check some of the really addicted guys' pages, you'll notice they put their "Wikiholic score" on it. This is a list of questions each one giving you a certain number of points to your score. One the questions is "Have you ever learned a new language for the primary purpose of editing that version of Wikipedia (17 points)?" Gadykozma 14:30, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mpolo.

I was not able to view "יַהְוֶה" well, but יַהְוֶה, printed out fine.

It prints out much clearer, than what I see on my computer screen.

Can you provide me a link where I can get more Hebrew unicodes than what you provided in your early edits of "Iaoue" [e.g. יַהְוֶה]

Seeker02421 14:51, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is the problem that Gadykozma mentioned above -- most browsers don't display combining Unicode characters very well. Here's some info, though: [1]. (I used "Character Map" in Gnome to produce them.) Mpolo 15:05, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

The Iaoue thing

Seeker inserted some stuff about a Gerard Gertoux, who has certain views on how the Tetragrammaton should be pronounced. Unless he provides a reference, this will not stand - I have certainly never heard of Gerard, nor does his viewpoint sound plausible. The only reason the Tetragrammaton is printed without vowels is to prevent people from trying to pronounce it. Moreover, all ancient Hebrew texts were unvowelised.

I also doubt why we need a seperate Iaoue article, while this is essentially about the same thing. JFW | T@lk 11:31, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

JFW, you are an incorrigible mergionist. The iaoue page is a really nice expansion of a specific aspect. The information on that page is too specific to be merged into this page. I really can't see why you would want to remove it. Gadykozma 06:20, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Gerard Gertoux is a scholar who possibly knows more details about the "Jehovah/Yahweh" controversy, than any other person on the planet earth.

Gerard Gertoux entered the "Jehovah"/ "Yahweh" controversy in 2002, when he wrote a 328 page book titled:

THE NAME OF GOD

Y.EH.OW.AH

WHICH IS PRONOUNCED

AS IT IS WRITTEN

I_EH_OU_AH

Gerard Gertoux wrote his book to demonstrate that "Yehowah" and not "Yahweh" was more likely to be God's name.

Many Jehovah's Witnesses though that he might aid their cause greatly, but Gerard Gertoux's conclusion was that "YHWH [without vowel points] is spelled "Iehoua" and pronounced "Yehua"

I personally believe that the article on Iaoue is importent, because it plays such a large part in showing where the name "Yahweh" has come from. The information found in Iaoue would not be allowed to be posted on Tetragrammaton because of the space it takes up.

I personally believe that any article on the Tetragrammaton, that says nothing about "Iaoue" is not a NPOV article.

Gerard Gertoux is important because he along with Sacred name ministries believe that it is possible to pronounce YHWH [even when it has no vowel points]

Sacred name ministries are on the "Yahweh" side of the "Jehovah/Yahweh" controversy.

Gerard Gertoux strongly opposes the name "Yahweh"

There is balance in covering both Gerard Gertoux and Sacred name ministries.

In my opinion, in a NPOV article on the Tetragrammaton, the view that it is possible to spell YHWH [without vowel points], and to pronounce YHWH [without vowel points] deserves a hearing, however this could be discussed in a separate article linked to Tetragrammaton.

Seeker02421 12:46, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

More edits

Well, I edited it again... I left out a few pieces, here is why:

Before the ninth century B.C., Hebrew was written with no vowels.

It seemed irrelevant: we don't have any text containing the Tetragrammaton that old, right?

If the tetragrammaton was used in combination with Adonai, the vowels of Elohim (God) are used instead of those of Adonai, to remind the reader to say "Adonai Elohim", rather than "Adonai Adonai".

I think that the only importance of this fact is to substantiate the explanation of the Ben Chayim codex niqqud (it does a very good job at that, I must say). However, in order for it to do that one has to know Hebrew and see the precise niqqud, the hataf-segol under the yod etc. So, for the casual reader, this text is meaningless, while for the advanced reader, it is too short and uninformative. I think that in this page it is enough to state that the explanation is convincing, without actually showing why.

The Greek form here represents four vowel sounds -- ου is a diphthong in Greek. However, already in the New Testament, ι had taken on a consonantal usage like English y, and a consonantal pronunciation of ου like English w is not unreasonable. Thus, combining Clement's vowels with the consonants of the Tetragrammaton, the pronunciation/transcription Yahweh was produced.

The problem here is similar. This needs to be discussed in greater length, or none at all. I actually cannot understand it. Probably the best would be to do it in the iaoue page.

Hundreds of years before vowel points were invented, the Hebrew spelling of David’s name had been changed from דוד (daleth-waw-daleth) to דויד(daleth-waw-yod-daleth). [Note "b-hebrew Transcription Guidelines"][2] In the later spelling, the consonant “yod” had been added to indicate the vowel “i” in David’s name. Thus while it is true that between the ninth century B.C., and the time period when the Masoretes invented vowel points, the Hebrew text had no true vowels, certain Hebrew consonants were being used to indicate vowels.

I didn't see how this is relevant

Finally, I reinstated the "partially" in the text

This can be partially explained by rules of Hebrew grammar, which forbid hataf-patah under Yod.

Please don't remove it. This explanation is bad because if we agree that this is Adonai vowels interlaced with יהוה then the rules of grammer are irrelevant. Worse, the interlacing with the vowels of Elohim puts a hataf-segol under the yod! So this really explains very little. I was actually tempted to write "a lame excuse is derived from the rules of Hebrew grammer"... Gadykozma 05:38, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yehowah not Yehowah

On July 7, 2004 someone with the name "JW BERT" discussed why the actual vowels of aDoNaY were not placed above and below YHWH in the Masoretic Text.1

On July 7, 2004 Gerard Gertoux explains to JW BERT why JHW-H (sic) must be vocalized "Yeho-ah" or "Yehou-ah". 2

Footnotes

1 JW BERT discusses why YHWH is spelled "Yehowah not Yahowah"

2. Gerard Gertoux explains to JW BERT why JHW-H (sic) must be vocalized Yeho-ah or Yehou-ah.


Seeker02421 22:22, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Material from Reconstructing...

I removed the text (see below), which was imported from Reconstructing the vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton for the following reasons:

  • It is an incoherent collection of facts. It is probably POV, trying to belittle the Yahweh pronunciation, but it is too unclear to do that.
  • It is too specialized to go into the Tetragrammaton page. Is the general reader really interested in Wilhelm Gesenius? A clear separation needs to be done between general pages and academically oriented pages.
  • It makes the "pronunciation" section, which is already too long, the bulk of the page. With this text we might as well rename the page Pronouncing the Tetragrammaton. I do wish someone would expand the cultural or the ineffability part (Monty Python, duh?)

I guess this text could be useful for a specialized page on the Tetragrammaton, but I'm not sure Wikipedia is sufficiently staffed to write a page which is both scientific and POV-problematic on this topic. Gady 16:44, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Gady: It is a pity to lose that text... why don't you move it to Tetragrammaton? Believe me when I say that many controversial articles with conflicting POVs can be resolved and becaome great articles. Time and patience... --Zappaz 16:05, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Begin removed text

=== Scholarly Sources in which "יַהְוֶה" is found === The vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton shown below: "יַהְוֶה" started to appear in scholarly sources in the 19th century, or possibly earlier: "יַהְוֶה" was not the only vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton that appeared in scholarly sources in the 19th century, but gradually it became accepted as the best reconstruction of the vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton. Smith's " A Dictionary of the Bible" [[#Footnotes|<sup>3</sup>]] [published in 1863] notes that Wilhelm Gesenius, who is noted for being one of the greatest Hebrew and biblical scholars, [[#Footnotes|<sup>4</sup>]] punctuated YHWH as "יַהְוֶה". Wilhelm Gesenius wrote a Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament which was first translated into English in 1824. [[#Footnotes|<sup>5</sup>]]. In 1863, Smith's "A Dictionary of the Bible" does not consider "יַהְוֶה" to be the best vowelised Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton, of which it is aware of. The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown and S.R. Driver and C.A. Briggs shows "יַהְוֶה" under the heading "יהוה" "יַהְוֶה" is found in the online Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906, under the article: "NAMES OF GOD" and under the article sub heading: "YHWH".[[#Footnotes|<sup>6</sup>]] The Jewish Encylopedia recognizes that "יַהְוֶה" is spelled "Yahweh" in English, but "יַהְוֶה" is only one of two vowelized Hebrew spellings, that they believe might have been the original pronunciation of YHWH. * [http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/264290/YahwehfromSmithsBibleDictionarylowres.JPG Smith's "A Dictionary of the Bible"] * [http://www.bartleby.com/65/ge/Gesenius.html Wilhelm Gesenius is noted for being one of the greatest Hebrew and biblical scholars.] * [http://www.greaterthings.com/Bibliography.htm Wilhelm Gesenius' Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament was first translated into English in 1824,] * [http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=N The online Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906]

end removed text

Josephus & vowels of יהוה

On the main page, it says "Josephus wrote that the sacred name consisted of four vowels"

Where did he write this?--Josiah 03:20, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Hi Yoshiah ap,

In The Works of Josephus

Antiquities of the Jews and a History of the Jewish Wars etc.

In Chapter V [Wars of the Jews]:

"...A mitre also of fine linen encompassed his head, which was tied by a blue riband, about which there was anther golden crown, in which was engraved the sacred name [of God]:it consisted of four vowels..."

Seeker02421 11:08, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is Book V, Chapter V, 235 of De bello Judaico: tên de kephalên bussinê men eskepen tiara, katestepto d' huakinthôi, peri hên chrusous allos ên stephanos ektupa pherôn ta hiera grammata: tauta d' esti phônêenta tessara.
The word in question is phônêenta, which Liddel and Scott defines as: "vowels". It litterally means "sounding [letters]".

This text יְהֺוָה is not showing correctly. Can you check that the gplyphs are correct? --Zappaz 16:02, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

George m: Thanks for these fixes! --Zappaz 23:22, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi Zappaz, so the greek could just be saying that there are 4 letters (yud, heh, vav, and heh) in the name, right?--Josiah 00:36, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Hello Josiah. What do you mean? --Zappaz 03:34, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC) yep: Got it and edited it. --03:36, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

V or W?

I noticed that the tetragrammaton is spelt inconsistantly throughout the article. What should it be? A V or a W? Benji man

Tough choice. The pronunciation in modern Hebrew is "V", but linguists generally believe the ancient pronunction was "W". Jayjg (talk) 21:50, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
We need to chose one or the two transliterations for consistency throughout the article. I would suggest we use YHWH . --Zappaz 22:10, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, I changed all "YHVH"s to "YHWH". While I was at it, I replaced "vav" with "waw", and "ha-Shem" with "Hashem", since the latter spelling occured more often than the former one. Benji man 11:56, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Miscellaneous Thoughts

Excuse me for interrupting, but isn't the language of the second tetragrammaton in the picture paleohebraic and not Aramaic? Modern Hebrew today uses the square letters, correctly noted, that came from Aramaic, not early Hebrew. Early Hebrew's alphabet was similar to Hebrew, so the pictures actually represent PaleoHebraic and Square characters, not Phonoecian, Aramaic, and Modern Hebrew. Please make the appropriate changes as I do not see how to. Thank you. Chris Weimer 22:18, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I created that picture based on my references. The square Hebrew glyphs were derived from Phoenician around 10 BC, and by 3 BC an Aramaic-derived script was used, culminating in the modern Hebrew script. Both Phoenician and Aramaic are considered proto-sinaitic. Check AncientScripts.com[[3] and [4]. Do you have other references that differ with this? That would be very interesting indeed. Note that I am referring to the early Aramaic, or proto-Hebrew. Many scripts eveolved from this early Aramaic, including the Kharosthi alphabet[5]. --Zappaz 03:51, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Strong's Hebrew Word #3069

Actually Strong’s Hebrew word #3069 [e.g. Yehovih] does not have precisely the same Hebrew vowel points as "Elohiym" has.

James Strong’s spelling of Hebrew word #3069 [e.g. Yehovih] is "יְהֺוִה"

The spelling of "Yehovih" that is thought to be found in the underlying Hebrew of the King James Bible is "יֱהֺוִה" It is this spelling of "Yehovih" [e.g. "יֱהֺוִה"] that that has precisely the same vowel points as "Elohiym" [e.g. "אֱלֺהִים"] has.

Seeker02421 20:31, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Should this article be merged with the Names of God in Judaism? Pinnecco 10:00, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but with care. Users might search for "tetragrammaton" and not know to look for "names of God," so at the least it needs a redirect. Also, I think the Pop Culture stuff needs to be kept, but maybe that could be added down at the bottom with any pop culture references to other Names of God on that page? Zabieru 20:20, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No. That article is already long enough, and we shouldn't ditch the info in this one. We should have a brief summary of the main points in Names of God in Judaism, with a link here. This is the format used for all sorts of things—to pick an example, see United States#History. It has two paragraphs, and a link to a much longer article. —Simetrical (talk) 02:58, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Name in Italian

As far as I know, in Italy the Name is written 'Iavè', or 'Iahvè', or 'Jahvè' (with 'J' pronounced like English 'Y') or 'Yahweh' (with 'w' pronoun like 'v'); however, it is rarely used by catholics, apart during the mass while reading the Scriptures excerpts where it is mentioned. In any case, 'Geova' is definitely used only by 'Testimoni di Geova' (the Italian branch of 'Witnesses of Jehovah'), and maybe by other protestant creeds, then for sure this info must be corrected. Very good article... I hope I'll understand it, at last :-) --MOnSTEr 18:08, 9 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I see the name in Italian is again 'Geova'. It seems to me that, if such part of the article has to stay there, it must be correct; so the 'name in Italian' should be 'Jahve' (pronounced 'Iavè'), given the fact that in Italy this is the current translitteration of the tetragrammaton: apart of the numeric minority of Witnesses of Jehova, no one uses 'Geova' for this purpose. 'Iahve' is used in the Bible as translated by the CEI (the Italian Episcopal Conference), and therefore, if not the most correct (questionable, and questioned just here), for sure is the most spread translitteration in Italy. --MOnSTEr 20:07, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

About Yahu

It was also Martin Buber's opinion, save that Yahu simply means "O,Him" 139.165.96.129Inyan

Jehova and Yahveh

Jehova and Yahveh are two different Gods names. Actually Jehova is God and Yahveh is Demon. Names are confused with purpose. Do not follow translators who does huge mistakes; explore the difference between Jehova and Yahveh.

Events Leading up to the Jews avoiding pronouncing YHWH

Added an important aspect and can be found from the scriptures themselves as to why the 'fear/reverance' increased after the destruction of the First Temple. The main topic of Jeremiah and Ezekiel plus the latter end of 2nd Kings and 2nd Chronicles is how YHWH tries to turn Judah from their idolatry and sinful deeds so that they may know that "ANI YHWH" (I-am YHWH).

Did not add how the 'reverance' increased even more after the destruction of the temple by Antiocus prophecied through Daniel; and the last destruction by Titus in AD70 which also was prophecied through Daniel, Messiah, and the sent-ones (apostles). I also did not add the German Holocost which is prophecied in in Ezekiel plus their return to the land in 1948. All these events drive home that YHWH is a living and active God which causes his word to be.

You would reverance His name if it was your family and your neighbors who were ridiculed, tortured, killed, taken away as captives according to the recorded words of the God of your fathers.

--dmonty 03:22, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE:

The addition was removed because it is considered POV. The primary sources used for the events leading up to when the name stopped being pronounced is the Encyclopaedia Judaica plus bible context from: Deuteronomy, Leviticus, 2 Chronicles, 2 Kings, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. I hope someone might one day include this from the Encyclopaedia Judaica.

Explanation of YHWH from Context of Exodus

Added further explanation of the meaning of the name with 1st person 3nd person examples from context.

--dmonty 03:23, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE:

Removed because it is considered POV. Primary source "The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown and S.R. Driver and C.A. Briggs". Someone should add the explanation EHYEH(1st person) and YWHW(3rd person) from how it is used in the context of Exodus 3 see the above mentioned Lexicon. Also include the notes on HIPHIL and QAL verb found in this Lexicon.

Yahweh redirect

It seems to me that it is inappropriate to have Yahweh redirect here. There is a place on wikipedia for a discussion of the God of the Israelites, specifically, and what scholars believe about his origins and so forth. This article is (appropriately) largely focused on YHWH as a name, and the history of it as a name. But I think there's a place for a discussion of the Hebrew God as a concept. That place is neither here nor at God, which wisely focuses on the idea of God more generally. The appropriate place for this, then, would seem to be at Yahweh, which is generally considered by scholars as the best rendering of YHWH. What do people think? john k 02:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This sounds reasonable to me. I can understand not wanting a different article each for Yahveh, Yahvah, etc., but Yahweh kind of stands on its own as the main transliteration. Yahnatan 03:55, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Migne P.G. quotes Clement of Alexandria as saying that the Tetragrammaton is pronounced "Iaou" not "Iaoue".

What evidence is there that Clement of Alexandria ever wrote that the Tetragrammaton was pronounced "Iaoue"?

Seeker02421 10:02, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia article Iaoue, a work in progress, mentions that the variants "Iaou" and "Iaoue" and "Iaouai" are found in various editions of Clement of Alexandria's Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34, where Clement explains how the Tetragrammaton is pronounced.

Seeker02421 10:28, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect of IHVH

I redirected a new short article titled IHVH here; there was nothing in the article not covered here. Basically it was just the alternate roman-character spelling, plus the theory mentioned here about a god named "Yah" or "Yaw" or possible "Jah". If the author of IHVH would like to disagree, this section is a good place. MCB 08:33, 13 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Under the "Vowel marks" section in Wikipedia:Tetragrammaton it says:

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This can be explained by rules of Hebrew grammar, which forbid a sheva under an aleph, although this explanation is not entirely satisfactory.5
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I am about to remove Footnote # 5 because the Hebrew Grammar Rule it points to has been proven to be incorrect, on b-Hebrew.

Footnote # 5 points to the link below:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Two/A-Type_Vowels/a-type_vowels.html

At the above link is states:

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The Chateph Patach is sometimes called a “half vowel” and is the shortest of all vowels: it can only appear under the guttural letters (and is usually part of the following syllable).
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http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2005-September/025807.html

At the above link Peter Kirk lists the following verses where a hataf-patah [e.g. Chateph Patach] is found under a non-guttural letter in the Leningrad Codex

With hataf patah: GEN 2:12; 3:17; 10:3; 12:3; 18:21; 22:18; 24:60; 25:22; 26:4,12; 27:19,27,27,29,31,33,34,38,41; 28:6,14; 30:27,38; 38:12; 48:9,20; 49:23; EXO 8:5; LEV 6:11,19; 9:23; NUM 5:18,19,24,24,27; 6:23,27; 10:9; 16:32; 18:10,13; 23:18,25; 24:9; 33:55; DEU 5:27; 8:2,15; 15:20,22; 24:13; JOS 11:2; 22:7,33; JDG 5:2,9,12; 7:6,7; 1SA 13:10; 24:11; 2SA 8:10; 13:25; 19:40; 1KI 8:66; 14:21; 2KI 19:16; 1CH 1:6; 4:10; 18:10; 26:5; 29:20; 2CH 5:12,13; 12:13; 20:21,26; 23:13; 30:27; 31:8; 35:15; EZR 8:26; NEH 2:6; 3:13; 7:67,67; 9:5; 11:2; 12:29; JOB 1:5,11; 2:5; 29:25; 31:20,37; 33:25; 34:10; PSA 12:7; 31:12; 34:1,2; 55:19,22; 64:9; 68:7; 72:15; 73:28; 74:5; 76:12; 83:13; 96:2; 100:4; 103:1,2,20,21,22,22; 104:1,35; 107:38; 134:1,2; 135:19,19,20,20; 140:4; 143:12; 144:15; 145:1,2,10; PRO 30:17; ECC 6:2; 9:7; SNG 3:6; 8:2; ISA 19:25; 31:8; 48:14,17; JER 22:28; 31:33; 32:9; EZK 4:9,10,10,12; 7:15; 9:8; 35:6,6; DAN 2:19,35; 4:9,18; 6:23; 7:19; 9:18,19; 12:10; JOL 3:3; MIC 3:9; ZEC 4:12

Seeker02421 20:06, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Merging Yehuah

Both Tetragrammaton and Yehuah are about the same divine being. I say we merge them. --SoothingR 11:13, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I actually think we should delete the Yehoua article altogether, as it is both reduntant and biased (it takes the Bible as divinely-inspired truth without a second thought).--Rob117 23:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Transcription in other languages

My first impulse was similar on seeing the addition of Russian, but it should also be noted that the Serbian someone added (and for which we could use a version in Cyrillic) isn't alphabetal either. I think a contributor can be excused for not doing this, as it ought to be acknowledged that adding an entry or two into the middle of this table is an enormous PIA, and that an editor with useful information to add to it might not feel up to the task of rearranging the whole table to accomodate it. I didn't fix it myself for the same reason. In any event, I can't see cutting information solely on formatting grounds. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

IP 172.208.29.110 /172.129.132.131 / 172.156.242.240

Dear IP 172.208.29.110 / 172.129.132.131 / 172.156.242.240 -- the changes which you're so insistent on don't really add anything to this article. Please discuss them on this page, if you feel that they have any validity, instead of just adding them in again. AnonMoos 19:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Transcription in other langages

An anon editor has added a comment to the head of this table wondering why it's in the article. That's a good question. Is it of any particular use in a general-interest article like this one? TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

HaShem and other matters

I have modified all occurrences of "Hashem", "hashem" to "HaShem". "Ha" in Hebrew is an article but not ordinarily written as a seperate word. In order to distinguish it from the noun that follows in Latin transliteration either a hyphen or CamelCase is employed. The latter seems to be more common, so that's the one I used. Ditto for the single occurence of "Hameforash" and for the same reason.

I cut the "Other uses of the word" section since it was in the wrong place and its only content, the well-known huckster Prophet Yahweh, isn't terribly relevant here and has his own article. I suppose he can go on a dab page if someone wants to make one. TCC (talk) (contribs)

HaShem vs. Adonai

Pronouncing YHWH as "HaShem" was not practiced during Masoretic times, and has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the Masoretic pointing of the Tetragammaton, so please stop changing Adonai or Elohim to "HaShem" in the context of the discussion of Niqqud. AnonMoos 19:29, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Request for IPA pronunciation

Would an editor familiar with both Hebrew vowel points and IPA please insert the IPA equivalents at the appropriate places so that those not familiar with Hebrew can see how this word has been or is pronounced? I realize that it is not spoken in Judaism, but that has not stopped folks from trying, as is evident from the article. --Blainster 17:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really know that using IPA symbols would give you any more real information than a simple alphabetic transcription such as "Yahweh" does... AnonMoos 18:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Although the second "h" in Yahweh would not actually be pronounced, while the first "h" would be. AnonMoos 18:51, 19 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm

At the link above is found:
"The sounds of English and the International Phonetic Alphabet"
My guess would be "ja:hwe"
[Note: the final "h" is silent]
[IPA]
[ j ]------[yes, yellow]
[ a:]------[arm, father]
[ h ]------[how, hello]
[ w ]------[wet, window]
[ e ]------[met, bed]

Seeker02421 15:54, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the responses. I will add this to the article (Reconstructed pronunciation). The link to the key you used works for your example, but I suggest we stick to the Wiki version I gave above at IPA. If the "h" above is silent, I think it should be left out— my read is that the hw combination is used when one would have a "wh" sound like in "which" (where "h" modifies) as opposed to "witch". And the "e" as in "bed" sound is OK for Australian but is given as "ɛ" for Received or American English. The "e" symbol is not used in Received but in American it means "ay" as in "bayed" so that symbol could confuse some folks. So even IPA seems to have variations according to the language used. --Blainster 18:57, 22 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

[h]+[w] most certainly did NOT form any kind of "hw" phoneme or regular sound combination in ancient Hebrew, and as for the exact quality of the "e" vowel, it's really anyone's guess -- which is one reason why IPA is not necessarily the preferred tool for this particular job. AnonMoos 02:36, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Seeker02421

Seeker02421 -- You developed most of that material at great length in article Iaoue, so why are you now adding it here also? It's not really appropriate to include basically the same material here, also at Iaoue, also at KJV-Only Movement, etc. etc. Try to decide what's the best location for it, and only include abbreviated references at other locations. AnonMoos 19:40, 3 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Duplication of material

Seeker02421, please don't unnecessarily duplicate material between here and Iaoue - AnonMoos 17:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

AnonMoos, Is there some Wikipedia rule involved in your request? Does Wikipedia have some rule in which information found in one article, should not be posted in a different article? Seeker02421 11:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, and I'm not sure I particularly care. It comes from common sense -- this article (Tetragrammaton) is starting to push length limits, and if there's a whole lengthy discussion of a sub-topic on separate page (Iaoue), then it's best to mainly defer discussion to that page (with an appropriate cross-reference link), rather than develop ANOTHER whole lengthy discussion of the sub-topic on this main page. AnonMoos 18:31, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Response

Section 2 [The Scholarly Reconstructed pronunciation "יַהְוֶה" ( i.e. Yahweh )]

and

Sub-section 2.1 [Scholarly sources in which "יַהְוֶה" is found] now work together as a team to present evidence that"Yahweh" has been derived from "Iaoue" , however it was only on November 12, 2004 that IZAK [who works for Wikipedia] first imported most of the text that is now in [Scholarly sources in which "יַהְוֶה" is found] into the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton.

IZAK imported it from Wikipedia "Limbo" where some unwanted Wikipedia Articles end up.

The following day November 13, 2004, Gadykozma [a Wikipedia moderator] moved the above mentioned text from the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton into Talk:Tetragrammaton.

16:44, 13 November 2004 Gadykozma (Material from Reconstructing...) Gadykozma moved the text below into Talk:Tetragrammaton.

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Scholarly Sources in which "יַהְוֶה" is found

The vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton shown below:

"יַהְוֶה" started to appear in scholarly sources in the 19th century, or possibly earlier:

"יַהְוֶה" was not the only vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton that appeared in scholarly sources in the 19th century, but gradually it became accepted as the best reconstruction of the vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton.

Smith's " A Dictionary of the Bible" 3 [published in 1863] notes that Wilhelm Gesenius, who is noted for being one of the greatest Hebrew and biblical scholars, 4 punctuated YHWH as "יַהְוֶה". Wilhelm Gesenius wrote a Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament which was first translated into English in 1824. 5. In 1863, Smith's "A Dictionary of the Bible" does not consider "יַהְוֶה" to be the best vowelised Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton, of which it is aware of.

The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Francis Brown and S.R. Driver and C.A. Briggs shows "יַהְוֶה" under the heading "יהוה"

"יַהְוֶה" is found in the online Jewish Encyclopedia of 1901-1906, under the article: "NAMES OF GOD" and under the article sub heading: "YHWH".6 The Jewish Encylopedia recognizes that "יַהְוֶה" is spelled "Yahweh" in English, but "יַהְוֶה" is only one of two vowelized Hebrew spellings, that they believe might have been the original pronunciation of YHWH.

</nowiki>

end removed text

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On November 13, 2004 , after moving the text, Gadykozma wrote in Talk: Tetragrammaton:

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Material from Reconstructing...

I removed the text (see below), which was imported from Reconstructing the vowelized Hebrew spelling of the Tetragrammaton for the following reasons:

  • It is an incoherent collection of facts. It is probably POV, trying to belittle the Yahweh pronunciation, but it is too unclear to do that.
  • It is too specialized to go into the Tetragrammaton page. Is the general reader really interested in Wilhelm Gesenius? A clear separation needs to be done between general pages and academically oriented pages.
  • It makes the "pronunciation" section, which is already too long, the bulk of the page. With this text we might as well rename the page Pronouncing the Tetragrammaton. I do wish someone would expand the cultural or the ineffability part (Monty Python, duh?)

I guess this text could be useful for a specialized page on the Tetragrammaton, but I'm not sure Wikipedia is sufficiently staffed to write a page which is both scientific and POV-problematic on this topic. Gady 16:44, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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On December 11, 2004 Zappaz [possibly a Wikipedia moderator ???] recommended this same text be moved back to the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton

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Gady: It is a pity to lose that text... why don't you move it to Tetragrammaton? Believe me when I say that many controversial articles with conflicting POVs can be resolved and becaome great articles. Time and patience... --Zappaz 16:05, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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On December 11, 2004 Zappaz moved the text back into the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaon where it has remained.

16:13, 11 December 2004 Zappaz (→Alternative names - moved text from Names of God in Judaism)

While the present section #2 was not effected by what occurred in November and December of 2004, yet is part of a larger issue that Wikipedia has previously had with a large amount of information being added to the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton, to deal with the "Iaoue/Yahweh" issue.

In as much as on December 11, 2004 Wikipedia previously allowed this large amount of new information to be added to the Wikipedia Article: Tetragrammaton [to deal with the "Iaoue/Yahweh" issue], it is my opinion that my latest edits to Section 2 of the Wikipedia Article:Tetragrammaton should remain where they are.

Seeker02421 00:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why it does not have the meaning of "Yeshua Hanatzri Vemelech Hayehudim" mentioned? Was this article written by Jehova people?