Talk:Overexploitation

Description

I purpose modifying the description of overexploitation to "Overexploitation is an ecological term to describe one of the five main activities threatening global biodiversity. It is also extensively used in fisheries. Essentially, it means populations are harvested at a rate that is unsustainable, given their natural rates of mortality and capacities for reproduction. This can result in harvesting ‘to the point of diminishing returns’ and extinction at the population level and even extinction of whole species."

Any objections or additions?

Matt, I suspect you may be doing a little OR here. Your definition of overexploitation, as occurring when "populations are harvested at a rate that is unsustainable", seems to be equating overexploitation with unsustainablity. If that is the case, then we don't need this article when we already have one on sustainability. However, your definition does not mesh, at all, with the way the term is used in fisheries. In fisheries, as I have already spelt out in detail in the article, overexploitation can be perfectly compatible with sustainability. Indeed, the FAO had a recent international conference specifically looking at overexploitation and unsustainablity as contrasting concepts (cited in the reference section). The term is used more in fisheries than in other contexts, as you can easily check from Google. Also you haven't sourced the key statement you placed in the lead, that overexploitation is "a term used in ecology, as one of the five main activities threatening global biodiversity". For example, has this been explicitly stated by the Millennium Ecosystem Assessment? Are are you sure they use the term "overexploitation"? Unless you can clearly establish that, in ecology and conservation biology, the term is used in a definitive and unambiguous way, and that the term is in fact a key term within those disciplines, then I do not think it is a good idea to demote the fisheries context to an afterthought. --Epipelagic (talk) 22:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

No, I am not doing original research. There are 13 references on this now. That's 5 more than on fisheries you added. If you read the journals or the books, it clearly states what i've written. I am an Ecologist, I was taught about overexploitation of many species, not just fishes. I also gave you additional material on my talk page. Here are easy to click links just from googleing '5 causes of extinction, overexploitation' there were 101,000 results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_the_planet#2._.22Why_Is_There_a_Crisis.3F.22

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction#Causes

http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/1514.html

http://darwin.eeb.uconn.edu/eeb310/lecture-notes/extinctions/node3.html

I understand why you might think overexploitation and sustainability are related. As stated in the article, the phenomenon of sustainability came from overexploitation, as did many other concepts. Sustainability is one of many solutions to overexploitation. In the same way water can be a solution to fire, but they are not the same. Sustainability is a conservation effort, overexploitation is an ecological observation.

I am not trying to demote or detract away from fisheries, there is extensive material there in Overfishing etc, and links to these articles on the page. Matt (talk) 00:10, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Somehow Matt, you are ignoring the issues I raised. Overexploitation became a significant issue in the late 20th century because wild fisheries were collapsing. The concept was developed in relation to wild marine life. The overexploitation of wild terrestrial animals was literally a dead issue before ecology and conservation biology were born. Since then, the use of the term has been expanded to include things like the overexploitation of forests and water resources, so there are definitely ways in which ecologists use the term away from fisheries..

You say that, for ecologists, overexploited population = unsustainable population. If you are right, then for ecologists, overexploited = unsustainable, and they don't need a separate concept for overexploited. Also, and somewhat seriously, according to you, ecologists are using the term in a way that is incompatible with the way the term is used by the FAO and in fisheries. Bear in mind that many FAO advisor and fisheries scientists are also ecologists.

The issue has nothing to do with how many sources you cite, it is a question of the credibility and relevance of the sources. Can you find, for example, a widely accepted textbook on ecology or conservational biology with a chapter titled "Overexploitation", which sets out the concept of overexploitation the way you are describing it. Or can you find ecology papers writen for top journals, like Nature and Science, that use the term the way you are defining it? Can you find any FAO reports that use the term the same way? Reports from the Millennium Ecosystem Assessment would be good, since that is a definitive collective effort by many of the world's most prominent ecologists.

And to repeat, you also make the uncited assertion in the lead, that overexploitation is "a term used in ecology, as one of the five main activities threatening global biodiversity". That is a heavyweight assertion which needs to be supported with heavyweight sources. --Epipelagic (talk) 01:55, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

OK Epipelagic, maybe you have not read my talk page? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Matt-eee#Overexploitation). It addresses your issues on overexploitation.

You state “Can you find, for example, a widely accepted textbook on ecology or conservational biology with a chapter titled "Overexploitation", which sets out the concept of overexploitation the way you are describing it”. Maybe I was not clear enough, so here is your answer:

Book Title: Essentials of Conservation Biology (3rd ed.). Author: Richard B. Primack. Sinauer Associates, Inc Publishers. Page 265, Chapter 10 Title: Overexploitation. Indeed, my very definition of overexploitation came from an Ecology text book, which is referenced in the article. It comes from Page 474 under the section Overexploitation. This section does not mention fisheries; it does not mention sustainability

“The issue has nothing to do with how many sources you cite, it is a question of the credibility and relevance of the sources“

I also gave you articles published in two scientific journals “Conservation Biology” and “Biodiversity and Conservation”. These are qualitative!

You state: “according to you, ecologists are using the term in a way that is incompatible with the way the term is used by the FAO and in fisheries”

By 'you' I assume you mean 'Townsend, C.R. Begon, M. and Harper, J.L. (2003). Essentials of Ecology, 2nd edition. Page 474. Blackwell Publishing. Oxford.' as this is where the definition comes from and cited. In addition, I have not said this is incompatible with fisheries. Overexploitation is overexploitation no matter what the species. There is a vast amount of data on fisheries and overfishing and I am not detracting away from this and I find it strange that you have deleted the links from the article, in favour of your brief synopsis? Please explain this. BTW overexploitation threatens one-third of endangered vertebrates, as well as other groups. EXCLUDING EDIBLE FISH, the illegal trade in wildlife is valued at $10 billion per year. Try looking at the ‘bushmeat crisis’, for example, or the trade in Chinese medicine, or the fur trade.

You state: “the term [overexploitation] has been expanded to include things like the overexploitation of forests and water resources.

Ecology deals with living organisms and the relationships between organisms. In the strictest of terms an ecologists would not deal with overexploitation of water resources, unless in the context of its affect on species other than humans. When talking about sustainability we factor in a human element because it is usually an economic activity that is the cause and needs addressing. This is when overexploitation deviates from an ecological perspective. An ecologist, for example, would not be overly interested in the depletion of oil reserves, but would be interested in the effects of burning that oil has on ecosystems.

You state “overexploited population = unsustainable population. If you are right, then for ecologists, overexploited = unsustainable and they don't need a separate concept for overexploited”

OK. You talk about unsustainable as if it were sustainability. This is a fallacy, in much the same way correct is not the same as incorrect, stable is not the same as unstable. If overexploited = unsustainable, where is the unsustainable page on wiki? There isn’t one. Plus unsustainable is not a definitive term, although it is used, overexploitation is. Looking in back of the two books I have mentioned, I can see in the index page: “overexploitation” and “sustainability” and “sustainable development”. If we want to merge this article with another, the very least we need an ecological definition of the term.

You state: “The concept was developed in relation to wild marine life. The overexploitation of wild terrestrial animals was literally a dead issue before ecology and conservation biology were born”.

Point one:

the term Ecology was first used in 1866, it is an extension of natural history which extends back to much earlier. For example, the concept on the balance or regulation of nature can be traced back to Herodotos (died c. 425 BC) who described an early account of mutualism along the Nile river where crocodiles open their mouths to beneficially allow sandpipers safe access to pluck leaches away. This is Ecology

Conservation Biology is a much later discipline. Roots of conservation biology can be found in the late 19th century particularly in England and Scotland. The concept took off in America, for example, with the loss of Bison, Wolves, Passenger Pigeon to name a few. All of this long before the 1920’s and the decline of fishing industries.

Point two

But we can go further back than that. Ceremonial clocks worn by the Hawaiian kings were made from the mamo bird (Drepanis sp.); a single clock used the feathers of 70,000 birds of this now-extinct species. Further back still, the dodo, became extinct because of overexploitation. Further back still, the New Zealand Moa, extinct, reason = overexploitation. In fact in modern terms there are two waves of extinctions, in what is known as a blitzkrieg, or overkill hypothesis. That when early humans arrive at a new location extinction occurs. This is known as the Holocene extinctions. The second wave is from European colonisation. Jared Diamond has written many books and papers on this.

So, 1. the concepts of Ecology and Conservation are not old and certainly around before the 1920’s. And 2. Overexploitation has been observed for 100’s of years, long before the first detailed look at the over harvesting of fisheries, which, BTW, was done by Russell, E.S. 1931. "Some theoretical considerations on the 'overfishing' problem". Journal du Conseil Permanente International poul l/Exploartion de la Mar 6:3-27. However, I do agree that since the overfishing crisis a vast amount of research was developed specifically for fishing. I noted this on my talk page.

Finally

You state: “you also make the uncited assertion in the lead, that overexploitation is "a term used in ecology, as one of the five main activities threatening global biodiversity"

This is a well known fact in Ecology. Main focus tends to be on the individual factors as authors are looking in detail at one or maybe two specific causes. But I have already given numerous sources. Try this one: Wilcove, D.S., Rothstein, D., Dubow, J. Phillips, A. and Losos, E. (1998). Quantifying Threats to Imperilled Species in the United States. BioScience. 48, 607-615.

Matt (talk) 12:04, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Sources

This is not a heavyweight, but here is a source from GreenFacts which states "Five main threats to biodiversity are commonly recognized in the programmes of work of the Convention: invasive alien species, climate change, nutrient loading and pollution, habitat change, and overexploitation."

However, they do not define overexploitation, and do not include the term in their glossary. Still, I think the statement would be true even with sustainable overexploitation.

It does seem that many ecology articles use the term loosely as a convenient adjective, rather than as a clearly thought through concept. Certainly, as you claim Matt, many ecology articles assume, or outright state, that overexploitation is unsustainable. But that may just be sloppiness, and not something to introduce into Wikipedia. That's why I would like to see ecology usages in the article cited with impeccable sources.

The OECD defines overexploitation as a fisheries term: "Over-exploitation is the rate of exploitation where the resource stock is drawn below the size that, on average, would support the long term maximum potential yield of the fishery."[1]

The EEA defines it as "The use of raw materials excessively without considering the long-term ecological impacts of such use." [2] (that has to be the champion for waffle)

The term overexploitation is also used in hydrogeology. In that context, the consensus amongst hydrogeologists is that the term "is probably not amenable to a single, precise definition". Also see here.