Talk:James M. Masters Sr.

Content dispute

To summarize, Champmasters (talk · contribs) and I have spent the last few days discussing on our respective talk pages about a dispute regarding the sweeping revisions I made to a new article. I believe that we have now resolved the underlying issues and will now focus on the details of the article, including the weighty issues of word choice, punctuation, and spelling.
To reiterate my biggest change, the large blocks of quotes are best sourced, rather than included in the body. I've made liberal use of <ref> tags, but I believe we would do best moving the transcript of the oral history collection, which is an interview of Masters, to Wikisource. This not only removes the huge blocks of quotations, but solves the issue of excessive use of primary sources. There were also tone and NPOV issues, but I believe we can successfully negotiate through those details amicably. bahamut0013^words_deeds 19:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Capitalized ranks: as you pointed out, not every article follows every detail of the style guide perfectly. I correct it when I notice it, and it often gets changed by good-faith anons who aren't familiar with the guide. But it does make sense, at least to me: the rank itself is not a proper noun.

Images: case-by-case is indeed the ideal approach, but you'd have to let me know what you'd like to input. I'm not persuaded by the aesthetics argument for the official image, but if you have a suitable replacement, I'm willing to compromise. If you do want to email me, there is a link in the toolbox on the left side of the page when you view one of my userpages.

Transcript: I doubt they have it hosted online, and if they do, I wouldn't have a clue where to look. Perhaps you can inquire to the source you got your paper copies from to see if they have it digitally? If not, another alternative is that you could mail me photocopies and I could have them typed up.

What other concerns do you have? Planned changes? bahamut0013^words_deeds 12:41, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

copied from User talk:bahamut0013: The online page of thumbnail photos I mentioned, is now ready to view. I like either of the Lt. General photos (at page top) as a replacement for the current 'pale on pale' photo (which makes JMMSr look ill). Please tell me your choice between the two, and I will then donate the full-sized photo to Wiki. (Will you then insert the better photo into the bio, or should I?)

http://www.learningpracticalturkish.com/james-m-masters-sr.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Champmasters (talk • contribs) 11:25, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Over the next several days, I'll use that same online photo page to display other photos/documents from my collection. You can match those photos/documents against the inventory lists I sent earlier. We can then decide together which additional items I should donate.

From there, I can send you more rich-contextual passages where the agreed photos/documents might be hung. And you can format it the way you like.

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 11:22, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Either one would be perfect, they both look great. Most otrher biographies use the Service Alphas, but there is something to be said for the raw appeal of Dress Blues. To be honest, I'd like to use both: put the former in the infobox and the latter in the section regarding his retirement and death. bahamut0013^words_deeds 12:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I've now uploaded the dress blues photo to Wiki, file named 'James-m-masters-sr--lt-gen-in-dress-blues.jpg'

Could you check that I've registered it properly (description, source, etc.). If so, please leave me a note and I'll then upload the second photo (portrait in Service 'A' uniform).

Will you take care of 86-ing the pale-on-pale photo (in the infobox) in favor of the dress blues photo? And for placement, once I've uploaded it, of the second (Service 'A') photo in the section regarding his retirement and death? Or should I?

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 18:07, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I've swapped the photos. The licensing on File:James-m-masters-sr--lt-gen-in-dress-blues.jpg looks good. If you want to add the next image yourself, feel free.

Here's something else I just thought of today: the infobox still has a few empty parameters. Do you think you can get the coordinates for his grave? Google Earth or Google Maps should be able to do it, and then we can use {{coord}}. There is also a slot for a service number, though I would understand if you weren't willing to release personal info like that. Lastly, the "later work" field is blank... usually in mind for a profession (like politicians or astronauts whose military service is a footnote to thier notable career), but I suppose it is likely that he did something notable after retirement. bahamut0013^words_deeds 18:45, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the photo swap. The dress blues photo looks great in the infobox. I've now uploaded the Lt. Gen portrait (in olive drab) to Wiki. (It's named File:James-m-masters-sr--lt-gen-in-olive-drab-uniform.jpg.) I haven't yet inserted it into the bio body, because it ought to be accompanied by some text, don't you think? I can recommend some to you or you can write some. Please tell me which option you prefer. Additionally, I've added more photos to:

http://www.learningpracticalturkish.com/james-m-masters-sr.html

The new photos are from China Marine days (1939) and from Warm Springs (1940). Please review them, and let me know if/where they might fit into the bio. -- Man on the Roof (talk) 11:28, 30 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Champmasters (talk • contribs) 18:30, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Re: Do you think you can get the coordinates for his grave? Google Earth or Google Maps should be able to do it, and then we can use {{coord}}.

I haven't quite figured out how to do that yet, but I'll keep trying.

Re: There is also a slot for a service number, though I would understand if you weren't willing to release personal info like that.

At the Arlington National Cemetery entry for JMMSr's Navy Cross citation, his service number is listed. What might be the objection to showing it on Wiki too. Is someone liable to try to fake an ID (using JMMSr's service number), or something?

Re: the "later work" field is blank... usually in mind for a profession (like politicians or astronauts whose military service is a footnote to thier notable career), but I suppose it is likely that he did something notable after retirement.

Are the following notable? If so, I'll research them in my files and provide more detail. Immediately upon retirement, he was associated with Syracuse University (as a consultant or in a think-tank capacity, I believe), and, later, he was President of International Engineers Inc. (Vienna, Va.). If I start researching, I may find more.

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 12:12, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a specific threat of ID theft, but one can't be too careful. I think being the president of a corporation is definately worth noting, but we will need some sort of source for that. Also, that cartoonized portrait looks interesting... is that some sort of magazine or newsletter article? I'd like to read the text and see if it is some kind of media coverage. bahamut0013^words_deeds 13:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Re: I think being the president of a corporation is definately worth noting, but we will need some sort of source for that.

I have a letter on International Engineers Incorporated letterhead-paper (dated 22 April 1976) in which JMMSr signs as President of IEI. I'll add it as an image to the photo page.

Re: Also, that cartoonized portrait looks interesting... is that some sort of magazine or newsletter article? I'd like to read the text and see if it is some kind of media coverage.

It appeared in Navy Times during JMMSr's tenure as Inspector General. I have now activated the thumb-nail cartoonized portrait on the photo/documents page, so a left-click on the thumbnail will give you an enlarged view.

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 11:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

The letter would be a great WikiSource candidate, we can reference that easily. And the cartoon would be a great candidate if nothing else but to demonstrate third-party media coverage. We cite Marine Corps Times and Navy Times all the time here.

I also like the Warm Springs photo. That section is lacking an image currently, so that one would work great there. bahamut0013^words_deeds 12:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Re: The letter would be a great WikiSource candidate, we can reference that easily...I also like the Warm Springs photo.

The 1976 letter and the 1940 Warm Springs photo are now clickable for enlargement on the photos/documents page. Will you able to find a place for the 2 China photos with Marines in them? Also, I've got photos from WWII (which I'll upload tomorrow) with Marines like Ed Snedeker, Joe Hobbs, JMMSr - and others, on Okinawa. When you see them, I hope you'll agree that they rate a place in the Wiki bio too. As you can tell from the Inventory Lists I sent you, there's a lot more good material to come. And, I'm concerned when you say, only "1 or 2 photos per section" - unless, of course, you're willing to expand the number of sections (for which I'd provide the text that you may revise, within reason, and format as you wish). As mentioned before, I'm not in favor of donating photos/documents that will be relegated to a Wiki 'gallery'. If the photos and documents I have can't be placed in the Wiki bio itself, I'll retain them until I find a suitable home for them.

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 18:02, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

The China photos would be better if you had one with JMMS and his newborn son, but I think the one with him and his wife would work.

Any more text you want to add, you could outline what you have in mind and we can incorporate it. As we add more content, there is more room for images, but like I said, crowding at different resolutions is the main constrining factor. bahamut0013^words_deeds 18:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Re: The China photos would be better if you had one with JMMS and his newborn son...

I've got one of his father holding his newborn son. And, I've also got one of the Chinese Nurse holding JMMJr, but I don't have JMMSr and newborn JMMJr together...though I may run across one. I'll bring it to your attention, if I do.

Re: I think the one with him and his wife would work.

Good. I'll upload it tomorrow along with the Warms Spring photo, as donations to Wiki.

Re: Any more text you want to add, you could outline what you have in mind and we can incorporate it. As we add more content, there is more room for images...

OK. I'll send some text as an email message to you (as per the Inventory Lists I sent earlier)...in the next couple of days.

Re: ...but like I said, crowding at different resolutions is the main constrining factor.

In that regard, I've added 5 new clickable photos (from Okinawa 1945) to the photos and documents page, for your consideration.

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 18:25, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I've uploaded the 2 photos JMMSr and wife celebrate new parenthood and Captain Masters with FDR. Will you place them in the bio? Or shall I?

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 11:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Done. Do you know who the individual with him is in the Dakeshi ridge photo? It just says "fellow officer". I like the last Oki photo for the article. Do you have any photos of him between China and Okinawa? bahamut0013^words_deeds 12:38, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I've added 4 new clickable WWII Era photos on our language learning, photos and documents page, for your review. They are located under the headings: '1937 - Destination China', '1937-38 Shanghai, China', and 'Other Photos/Documents of interest, WW II Era, 1942'. The latter is near the page bottom.

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 11:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Two of the three new China ones are terrible quality. Is that just the sample or the image itself? The last one... oh, I would love to add that to Chesty Puller and Shoulder sleeve insignia! That's the best example of Marines wearing unit patches I've ever seen. bahamut0013^words_deeds 12:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Re: Two of the three new China ones are terrible quality.

Left click on each of the thumbnail images to see the higher resolution, enlarged photos. Only the newspaper image (even in its hi-res enlarged version) can be called 'terrible' -- but it's still useful because it names the names of all the Marines and wives (save one) who appear in the hi-res 'French Club' photo to its right. I'm opposed, like you, to displaying the newspaper image in the article, but suggest instead to use it as the basis for the caption of the 'French Club' photo. If you agree, I'll donate the un-watermarked hires versions of the 'USS President Polk' and the 'French Club' photos for you to place (where you see fit) in the article.

Re: I would love to add that to Chesty Puller and Shoulder sleeve insignia! That's the best example of Marines wearing unit patches I've ever seen.

That is a great one. But, the Rupertus family (who gave me permission to display their countless historic photos on our webpage, for this transitional period) would prefer that the Rupertus/Puller photo appear in the William H. Rupertus Wiki article. And as soon as you and I complete the JMMSr Wiki article, they intend to use the JMMSr article as a template for expanding the William H. Rupertus Wiki article, to include Wiki donations of many other great photos/scanned documents besides the Rupertus/Puller photo... such as Al Pollock and Bill Rupertus receiving their Navy Crosses from Adm. Nimitz, and Rupertus walking with MacArthur... such as wartime dispatches between Rupertus, Krueger, Halsey, and MacArthur. I'll add some more of such 'Rupurtus Family' photos/documents to our web page so that you can see what is waiting in the wings, as soon as we complete the JMMSr article, which itself will also include a Puller/Masters photo from my photo library (if you agree to it).

I'd like to get started organizing/preparing/writing additional sections of the JMMSr article as per the outline I sent you by email. Could you indicate which items "venture off the topic of Master's biography" and therefore 'don't fit'... so that I won't waste valuable time on them. At least not now. For now, I'd like to stay focused on completing the JMMSr article, with your help.

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 18:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you do upload them, please ask the WP:Graphic Lab to do some cleanup, with the noise, grain, and slight distortion detracting terribly from the quality of the images. Of course, adding an image to William H. Rupertus is, to me, a no-brainer. If you hadn't noticed, I added File:Bayonet tony biddle training marines, in parris island sc, 1942.jpg to Anthony Joseph Drexel Biddle, Sr. a while ago (which lacked any photo at, a remedy we have you to thank); this is in the same vein. Along similar lines, I would be glad to help improve the William H. Rupertus article once we are done (so to speak, Wikipedia is never finished) here.

Regarding the outline, I'm off for the holiday (and still not feeling well), so I won't be in my work email until tommorrow. But in general, when you start talking about exploits and events that were nearby, but not really involving or affecting JMMSr, I'd say that's off-topic, like a visit from a notable individual. For the sake of compromise, I'm willing to give some space to events that he had direct observation of, because I'm sure they made enough of an impression that he would mention it in the interviews several decades later. And speaking of the interviews, getting that transcript is still a priority for reference citation. Have you been able to contact your source to see if we can get a copy of it? Otherwise, I think our only other feasable option is for them to get typed onto Wikisource, whether by you or by me (which I'm more than willing to do, but would involve making photocopies and mailing them and I wouldn't ask you to have to pay money for that). bahamut0013^words_deeds 13:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to hear you're still feeling poorly. Under the circumstances, it's better to deal with all aspects of your comment when you've completely healed. But, in the interim, it would nice to maintain a little momentum. So, for now, I only ask your assurance regarding the two China-related photos that I propose to upload asap.

Re: If you do upload them, please ask the WP:Graphic Lab to do some cleanup, with the noise, grain, and slight distortion detracting terribly from the quality of the images.

At this time (as I've said), I want to stay focused on the JMMSr article. So, 'yes' or 'no'? Will you place the photos ('On board the USS Polk' and 'at the French Club') in the JMMSr article? If yes, I'll upload them right away and ask WP:Graphic Lab to do some cleanup, before they are turned over to you for placement.

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 17:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, no, they surely have a place; I didn't mean to give the opposite impression. I'd like to see what the Lab can de before inclusion because they may wish to upload the corrections as a seperate file instead of overriding the current. I'd also have to see if they can touch out that blue ink (that's helpful for a caption, but that's about it). However, don't let that stop you from adding them to the article yourself. I may be tired, but I'm home with little else to do, and so I wouldn't be able to stay away from Wikipedia if I wanted to. Call it Wikipediholism if you like (though Watchlistitis might be more accurate). bahamut0013^words_deeds 19:34, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Re: Call it Wikipediholism if you like (though Watchlistitis might be more accurate).

Hooked, eh? :^)

OK. I uploaded the two photos and made the request to WP:Graphic Lab to cleanup noise, etc. on both... and to remove blue ink from the French Club-steps photo. As per your recommendation, I'll wait until the Lab has done its thing before going ahead with the photos' placement in the JMMSr bio.

The two photo files are:

File:W.h.rupertus-and-j.m.masters-sr-with-wives-bound-for-shanghai-on-uss-polk-1937.jpg and File:James-m-masters-sr-(far-right)-and-wife(below)--socializing-with-rupertuses-and-other-marines-in-shanghai-1937-1938.jpg

When you're feeling up to snuff, I'll discuss the other aspects of your previous message (e.g. how to get you a copy of the Oral History transcript. I have an idea that may help get us at least part of the way toward that goal.)

-- Man on the Roof (talk) 19:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

By all means, go ahead. I think I'm done throwing up for the time being. bahamut0013^words_deeds 22:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Re: ...I'm done throwing up for the time being.

That's more information than I think I need. ;^)

I've gotten the 2 photos back from WP:Graphic Lab -- and, though they aren't ideal, I've used them in the JMMSr article ('China' section), while rearranging and changing some text to accommodate them. (At some point I'll ask the Rurpertus family to rescan them for me, but they've been so generous already that I don't want to impose, quite yet, again.) Please have a look and see what you think.

Re: Oral History transcript copy

My idea is pretty simple really. I'd be happy to scan the Oral History Transcript Cover Letter (from 1982 - 4 pages), the first couple and the last couple of pages of the OH transcript itself, say a total of 10 pages (not all 300+ pages) - and to send them to you as an email attachment. That will accomplish 2 things: 1) Provide 'proof' of the transcript's existence and its subject matter. 2) Provide you with addresses, titles, and official reference codes for the transcript, so that you can then contact the Directorate of Marine Corps History and Museums in Quantico, to request a full copy. Won't that do the trick to help you get your own transcript copy?

My 'contact' for the Oral History Collection was JMMSr's interviewer... the former Marine (and long-time Marine historian) Benis M. 'Ben' Frank, (who passed away in 2007), and I don't have a newer one. -- Man on the Roof (talk) 18:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, you kept insisting that a mere stomach bug could slow me down. I'm a man on a mission, and that mission is history. ;)

Well, the modified image looks much better. I've altered the placement for better article flow. Hopefully something can be done with the first one... After all they want a good image. Of course, they can/should be used on Rupertus's article.

Ah... I hadn't thought of that. Please be sure that you include any pages that have any ID stamps or numbers or codes. Of course, the name of the interviewer and date/place taken would be important for them to find it in the archives. I've sent letters to the United States Marine Corps History Division in the past and haven't gotten a responbse yet (maybe they can't take the work of a mere NCO and amateur seriously); but since this is a much more specific request, I think they may respond to it. I will follow up on it with some emails and a phone call... if I have to contact Dr. Neimeyer himself, I shall do so (he's filling a billet normally held by a senior officer, so I hope it doesn't come to that); I'm frustrated at having been ignored in the past. bahamut0013^words_deeds 19:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

USS President Polk

Gents, looking at the page for the USS President Polk (AP-103) it seems we have a disconnect. Wither the wikipedia page is wrong where it states that construction on the Polk did not begin until October 7, 1940 or the ship that the folks travelled to China on in 1937 is incorrect.--Looper5920 (talk) 20:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It might be a different Polk. List of United States Navy ships: P#Pl–Po lists USS Polk (1845) and USS Polk County (LST-1084) as redlinks. I don't think that DANFS is wrong, it's far more likely we have a case of mistaken identity here. Was the name of the ship gleaned from the oral history, or from some other source? It's also possible that the Polk was his trip home and he mis-remembered... after all, the image you uploaded above depicts the Marines in mufti (if they were indeed on a Navy transport, they would probably be wearing uniforms). bahamut0013^words_deeds 00:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The liner President Polk is named in the Oral History (OH) transcript. And, according to the The Ships List website, there was a vessel in the fleet of the Dollar/American President Line (which operated trans-Pacific and round-the-world services) that was built in 1921, originally named SS Granite State, In 1922, she was renamed SS President Polk. In 1940, she was renamed again, the SS President Taylor, In 1942, she was grounded on Canton Island and subsequently destroyed by Japanese aircraft. So, in 1937, when Masters and wife sailed on her with Lt.Col. Rupertus and wife (according to the OH), the ship was named SS President Polk... I guess the link to USS President Polk (AP-103) should be converted it to a SS President Polk redlink? Who wants to do the honors? -- Man on the Roof (talk) 10:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)