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February 17

Crossword confusion

Tonight I did a crossword and there was a clue that I didn't understand. The clue was Pre-coll. catchall and the answer is elhi. Can someone tell me what this means? What is the "coll" being referred to? If I knew that, then maybe I'd know what elhi refers to. Dismas|^(talk) 02:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

"elhi" is US jargon for "Elementary and High School". "coll." is an abbreviation for "college"; note the the x-word convention that says an abbreviation in the clue suggests an abbreviation in the answer. PhGustaf (talk) 02:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! I knew about the use of abbreviations in clues and answers but without knowing that coll meant college in this instance, I was at a loss. Not that I would have gotten it though since I've never run across the abbrev. "Elhi" before. Dismas|^(talk) 03:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I doubt Will Shortz would allow such a dubious clue/answer... --Mr.98 (talk) 03:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Shortz uses "elhi" at least once a week in the NYT puzzles. Eugene Maleska might have gagged at it, but he's been dead for seventeen years. (Which is likely before "elhi" was coined.) PhGustaf (talk) 03:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Nuh-huh. "Elhi" dates to 1948, at least according to M-W. --jpgordon^{::==( o )}

If I got ELHI as the answer, I would probably figure some of the crossing words were wrong, or that somebody messed up and it was missing NEWD. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

??? "elhi" is US jargon for "Elementary and High School". - this USian has never heard that term. Woogee (talk) 08:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I must admit that I had never heard of it till I worked it out whilst doing a crossword puzzle. PhGustaf (talk) 08:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. There is undoubtedly a tiny place somewhere near where one of Mr Shortz's authors (he edits more than writes crossword puzzles, I believe) once lived that uses some very obscure definitions. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I've never heard of "elhi" either and we don't have an article about it yet. --Thomprod (talk) 13:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Nor should we, since it's just a word and I can't see what encyclopedic content an article on it would have. It should (but doesn't) have an entry in Wiktionary. It's in the OED with quotes from Publishers Weekly, The Wall Street Transcript and a publication of the American Educational Research Association, which suggest to be that it's a piece of technical jargon rather than local slang. Algebraist 13:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

ramp girl?

In Bangladesh, they have these models being called ramp girl. What is a ramp girl? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.54.89 (talk) 04:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

According to this site[1] the 'ramp' is the walkway or catwalk used by models to display new clothing from fashion houses. The term appears to be used largely in the Indian sub-continent. Thus a ramp girl would be a model who walks the ramp. Of course there may be another colloquial or 'street' meaning of which I am unaware. Richard Avery (talk) 08:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Another kind of 'ramp' is a strong-tasting wild onion. I don't know whether they have they have those in Bangladesh. PhGustaf (talk) 08:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if they know, or if it's coincidental, how close "ramp" is to "tramp"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

See[2]. PhGustaf (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Beautiful. I especially like the part where they've apparently branded "Indonesia" into her lower back. Barbie the Sado/Masochist. Career Number 37. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

You're far from the first person to be excited by the prospect. (See [3], [4], and many others. Possibly NSFW.) The first time I remember Mattel^TM getting their pants in a twist about this was maybe 1997. PhGustaf (talk) 04:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

China's Foreign Policy

As per your references I noted that China has maintained very good relations with all it's neighbouring countries ,then why it is that china even after entering into peaceful pact with the then prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru it entered a war with India ia 1962.Is it not it's foreign policy is corrupt......!!!!!!!!!!1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.230.3 (talk) 04:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, our article says nothing of the kind. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you read our article Sino-Indian war which gives an overview of the causes? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean "its neighbouring countries" ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Back up a step, DJ Clayworth. The OP states very clearly, “that China has maintained very good relations with all it’s neighbouring countries,” which is not part of our article on Chinese foreign policy. So, when I say “[a]ctually, our article says nothing of the kind,” you might want to look at the cited article before spouting off about whether China and India had a month-long border skirmish 47 years ago. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

DOR, have you considered that DJC might be responding to the OP rather than to you? —Tamfang (talk) 21:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

OK, possible, but generally indenting means "this is a response to what's above," doesn't it? DOR (HK) (talk) 02:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Generally yes, but I'd like to have a nickel for every time I've seen it done wrong, including your unindented first comment above. And a dime for every time I've commented on it and been told "it happens, don't sweat it". —Tamfang (talk) 17:37, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

How can I attract a girl ?????

How can I attract a girl ????? --Jemycool007 (talk) 05:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)--Jemycool007 (talk) 05:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)--Jemycool007 (talk) 05:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)JEMY

Can you be a little more specific? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Having money helps. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 06:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Represent something with yourself. Have a hobby. Be smart. Know how to usefully spend free time. Be charming. Travel. Don't be emo. --Ouro (blah blah) 06:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Unless you want to attract an emo girl. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Pickup artist. Shadowjams (talk) 08:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Ew. Creepy. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Creepier than asking wikipedians? Shadowjams (talk) 09:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. One suggests ignorance and a willingness to learn (although potentially a willingness to learn creepy things). The other is creepy women-as-objects-to-fuck behaviour. 86.182.38.255 (talk) 15:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Be yourself, be light-hearted/fun to be around, put yourself in situations where you'll meet the opposite se, engage in your hobby or interest in a social-manner (e.g. if you like photography join a local group). Be keen but don' be desperate. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you tried putting food out? They like chocolate. Seriously, though, a friend is your friend; focus on making friends.--Sir or Madam (talk) 12:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Friends, right. 86.182.38.255 (talk) 23:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Having money and a job (especially a well-paying job) will work much better than any cliched pickup line. Unless that line is, "Would you like a ride in my Ferrari?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

To kick it up a notch, replace Ferrari with yacht or jet. Googlemeister (talk) 14:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a good read first. As is this. Honestly, if you absorb and understand these, you're ahead of the pack. 86.182.38.255 (talk) 13:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Being kind and nice yet having high status too, good earner, slim, fit. Friendly, informal, sense of humour. Being popular with other women. Do not be an egoist. Be attentive to other people, especially the group the girl is in. I read somewhere recently that women prefer men who have a feminine side rather than being totally masculine, not sure how true that is. 89.240.100.129 (talk) 14:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Depends on the woman. But most women are attracted to a man who is confident but not arrogant. And the stronger the woman is, the stronger the man needs to be. Most women don't like men that are "weak". The ones that do, are to be avoided. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

First, get the assumption out of your mind that all girls are attracted by the same thing - they're not. Second, since the answer to the question is not clear cut, you are basically asking for opinions. Third, we don't even know your motive or your personality. If you're looking for a long-term relationship, you should provide more details about the type of person that you are, your hobbies, your interests, etc.. If not, then the above advice probably will help you.--WaltCip (talk) 15:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Oy. the obvious (and difficult) answer is to not try. Trying to 'attract' women will usually come off as desperate or vain, which few people (make or female) find attractive. If you're looking to get laid, make yourself into something with cultural currency (get money, be stylish, be handsome, athletic or muscular, become a philosophical rebel or a more conventional leader); if you're looking for a relationship, be yourself, and be comfortable with who you are (because when you're comfortable with who you are it radiates honestly, trustworthiness, and other qualities that women will want to see before they'll even consider taking you seriously as a relationship). mostly, relax and be confident. it's the hardest easy thing in the wold. --Ludwigs2 16:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Do we have any real women here? 89.240.100.129 (talk) 16:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. "To thine own self be true". Respect yourself, respect others, and especially show respect to the women you would like to have a closer relationship with. Be kind. Be aware of your weaknesses, and work to overcome them. Be proud of your strengths, and use them to help the world around you. I could go on. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, loads, although many editors seem oddly unaware of this. Honestly, the two links I provided contain some of the best advice I've seen for a guy who needs to ask this question: this is why I linked them. 86.182.38.255 (talk) 18:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Not that I'm any expert in the art of attracting girls per se, but a couple of people have mentioned having money. Just having money. As if it were enough for a girl to know that you have money to make you instantly attractive to them. That is extremely demeaning to women, making them out to be a race of golddiggers. It's what you do, or could potentially do, with your money that might make some difference. But you can still attract women even if you're living hand to mouth and have very little left over after you've paid the bills. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 18:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree, the question was "how do I attract a girl", it wasn't "how do I attract MOST girls" or "what is the thing that most girls look for". Having a lot of money means you are almost 100% certain to attract at least a single female. Same with being extremely attractive, or extremely powerful. Does this mean all women are golddiggers/shallow? Of course not. But if you're suggesting that absolutely none of them are, well then that's just silly. Chris M. (talk) 21:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

But then, how do these girls become aware you have money? Do you walk into a bar with a sign on your head "I have plenty of money", and wait for them to flock to you? Why hasn't anyone ever tried this before? -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

You show your wealth by having an expensive car (or yacht or jet), wearing expensive clothes, an expensive watch, etc. Conspicuous consumption. --Polysylabic Pseudonym (talk) 04:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

JackofOz, "having money attracts women" isn't any more or less demeaning to women than "looking good (strong, handsome) attracts women". Both are statements that women are attracted to fit men -- money being taken as an indicator of one's fitness in modern society. --Polysylabic Pseudonym (talk) 04:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not so much "having money" as it is about being financially stable. The divorce courts are littered with ne'er-do-wells who can't hold a job and may otherwise be unstable. Women in general like men who are strong and stable. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Jemy, will having asked with exaggerated punctuation !!!!! a bunch of strangers about how to manipulate the feelings of a target female to your advantage, and signing yourself "cool007" three times, be the sort of mature behaviour that you will be proud of if a female gets to know you intimately? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The question could also be, What kind of a man do I want to be? That may sound sexist, or reeking of machismo, but I think the bottom line is that girls or women are attracted to masculinity. I am not addressing the question of other types of sexual attraction; I am just addressing the question of attraction between male and female. Getting back to what I was saying, I think the most efficient route to addressing your question is to inquire of yourself as to what type of masculinity you would most like to be the embodiment of. I think this is going to be an intangible thing. But nobody is a "cookie-cutter" person (like everybody else). I think a male needs to take his masculinity seriously, in all its subtleties. To some this comes naturally. But for others a lot of thought is involved. Obviously this is not a thought process alone. How one acts is a large part of how one expresses oneself. If finding a good relationship is important, mindfulness of the quality of your own masculinity within that relationship is important. I think that the bottom line is that the only currency you have that matters is your masculine personality — but that can be defined any way. Bus stop (talk) 04:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Good answer. And it covers a lot more ground than just techniques for "picking up chicks". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It would help to be somewhere where a) girls are, and b) where they may be looking for partners. So join a dance or art class for example - men may be in the minority there and in demand. Or do some evening classes / night school or join a club of some kind. Joining an online dating site would help put you in touch with girls looking for partners. Going the masculine route of just socialising with other men is not going to introduce you to many girls. 89.243.151.96 (talk) 13:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Personally,I'm always intrigued as to how I have not yet managed to attract a female when I am hard-working,clean-living,of good moral conduct(apart from a propensity to whizz down supermarket aisles on a trolley yelling Yee-hah),and yet on watching Judge Judy and similar, Cletus the Yokel who has several children by various women,paying nothing to them and whose main activities are either illegal or drunken has three or four ladies fighting over him.

I'm assuming you want some sort of a relationship and not just physical action-if that's your scene,then the clubs on a Friday or Saturday night would be a good place to start.Come round our town's harbour on a Friday night and there are many young ladies staggering around who would happily be attracted to you.They won't remember your name or any details about you the next morning though...

I'd look at the interests you have and follow them.If you're a quiet bookish stamp-collector,then it's unlikely that you'll find your dream girl at the Metal Thrash Night.Evening classes is a good idea- you're more likely to find someone of your type if you share a common interest.i.e I do drama and writing because I'm creative-chances are the other people there will be creative types.Plus,you have a guaranteed topic of conversation to break the ice,even if it's just 'I liked your story'.

Let them find out more about you-this comes up quite naturally-your background(eg born in New Zealand,moved to England when little,lived with mum/dad/sis,had cats/fish/deranged hamster),what sort of hobbies you enjoy(for instance F1 racing/drama/linedance/collecting cool souvenirs)and see if any of those spark something.

Be yourself-girls will appreciate you if you're honest,warm and genuinely interested.Are there any girls at work or uni that you are friendly with?Sometimes that's the best way to start-chatting to them,smiling,asking how their day went,lamenting the awfulness of the boss/lecturer with them. Being slightly eccentrically fun can be good,worryingly creepy is not.If they like what they see,you can move it up a bit (you seem nice-would you like to come for a coffee with me.)If it doesn't progress to romance,you'll have a really good female friend which is a super thing to have gained.

And don't forget,we have some delightful wikipettes(or should that be Wikipedettes?)here who are charming and friendly,happy to help with advice and not too likely to bite you(unless you so desire). I'm sure if you are genuine and pleasant,they will notice and maybe venture over to the Talk page to just say hi or leave a nice message :) I'm hoping so anyway. Here endeth the lesson Lemon martini (talk) 03:19, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

There was talk awhile back about having a "Wikipette of the Month" feature. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

As opposed to a Wikipet of the Month which is entirely different-wikipets are small cute things you keep that snuggle up on your lap,keep your feet warm at night and like being stroked whereas a Wikipette is... hmmm maybe not so different Lemon martini (talk) 18:13, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Try yahoo answers OP. This is not the right place to ask for personal advice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.89.27 (talk) 15:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

'Flash' of electricity when I plug something in

Hi everyone, just wondering, I have a plug socket with no on/off switch (Which I assume must mean that there's always power running through it). When I plug something in sometimes there's a 'flash' of electricity coming out from between the socket and plug ends. I just was wondering why it sometimes does this and whether it's dangerous for me, the plug or the appliance. Thanks for any answers. Chevymontecarlo (talk) 09:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know exactly what causes it, but as long as you don't touch the spark and your hands aren't wet, you're cool. Hell, I plug appliances with wet or damp hands all the time, sometimes I even get a little shock, and nothing happens to me, lol. But I don't recommend anyone else doing that. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 09:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and nothing will happen to the appliance, either. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 09:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Sparks like that mostly happen if you're plugging in an appliance that draws a heavy current and it's already switched on. When the resistance through the appliance is low, the electricity can jump across a very small gap between the plug pin and the socket contact, creating a spark. This is especially likely if the current was already flowing, which can happen if the pin touches the contact and then moves back a little, as it might due to the uneven motion of your hands.

The only problem this is likely to create, I think, is that the spark overheats the metal (both the plug and the socket), which can damage its surface. Then you may get a poor contact when you use the plug and/or the socket thereafter, which can lead to overheating or poor performance of what you're plugging in. I suppose it could even become a fire hazard. --Anonymous, 10:43 UTC, February 17, 2010.

Seems like you desperately need a BS 1363. 89.240.100.129 (talk) 14:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The arcing/sparking problem definitely seems to me to be something that happens with US-style plugs and particularly with laptop chargers. Even without the laptop plugged in to the charger, I can't plug in the charger to the mains without a spark. --Phil Holmes (talk) 15:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

BS 1363 plugs still arc if the appliance and socket are on. Even if the effect is not as pronounced. --Phydaux (talk) 19:23, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know any sparking would be within the socket box, and particularly with not-old plugs which have prongs which are only metal at the end, you would not be able to touch a live surface at any time even when putting the plug in. The plug sockets always have a switch as well. 78.146.206.38 (talk) 23:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

To minimise electric arcing erosion at the mains plug and socket terminals, try to ensure that the device you are plugging in is switched off before plugging in. Plugs/socket are not really designed as electrical switches —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.229.198 (talk) 14:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I had an electric grill that did that. Terrible design since there was literally no on-off switch, and a large heating element draws a lot of current. My experience with that device is that such sparks are not good as the electrical system on that grill wound up tripping my circuit breaker and frying the electric lines in the grill itself. Googlemeister (talk) 14:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

EV1 Car ads

I have a question. Why were the EV1 ads so weird and creepy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chuck Norris roundhouse kick (talk • contribs) 16:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Presumably to attract people's attention. That is the function of advertising.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

You mean the GM EV1 that was only available for lease for 4 years and only in 6 towns in the U.S.? Perhaps the ads were carefully targeted for their limited audience. Rmhermen (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

You can compare some creepy(?) EV1 ads (1) (2) (3) with an ad that is quite informative (4) (all videos). There may have been resistance within GM to the impact of the new electric car on their existing investment, dealer network and marketing that led to its unclear profiling and short life. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)corrected EV1

New Bike

I'm looking to purchase a new bicycle. I've bought one in the past but it was a cheap piece of crap and it was worthless in a year. I'm looking for a bike I can use basically just to ride 1/4-1/2 mile to a busstop and back every day. There isn't a side-walk or bike lane on this road so I'm going to be going with traffic so I want to make sure I can keep up a respectable pace without an excessive amount of effort. This isn't going to be going through dirt or anything like that if that matters. Basically I'm looking for an idea of exactly what I need for the what I want to accomplish, and also I'm looking for some suggestions of brands or locations to buy such a bike. I'd love to spend no more then $200 if that's at all possible. Thanks! Chris M. (talk) 17:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

If you plan to ride on pavement and the pavement is not too rough, I recommend a road bike and not a mountain bike or even a hybrid. You can go faster on a road bike with the same amount of effort, since they don't have fat tires creating friction and resistance. If you really can't spend more than $200, then you may need to consider a used bike. Try to find a reputable bike store that doesn't sell stolen bikes. The staff at a good bike store will be able to offer advice on the best models for your needs. If you want a new bike that is well built and fast, I think you will need to spend at least $400-$500. Marco polo (talk) 17:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

The way you say it was "worthless in a year" might suggest that you don't spend much time maintaing your bike; ride quality really shouldn't deteriorate that rapidly. My town bike was bought almost ten years ago for less than £120 but thanks to regular oiling, careful gear changing and keeping the tyres in good nick it rides as well as the day it came out of the shop. I've seen student bikes that were shiny-new in October but are rusted up by the start of January because people don't look after them — they must be really tough to get moving.

I'd definitely recommend avoiding knobbly mountain bike tyres, since these will slow you down significantly. It might be worth going for a fairly solid second-hand bike with hub gears if you don't mind sacrificing a little speed, since these are much less prone than derailleur gears to physical damage, wear through usage, going out of index etc etc. My university bike is an old £40 shopper thing with a three-speed Sturmey-Archer dynohub, which provides lighting (admittedly only while I'm moving) as well as gearing. All it needs is oil on the chain every month, a couple of drops in the hub and pumping up the tyres when they go a little soft. An old bike that's in good nick might be more cost-effective than a brand new one for what you want to do.

If you can only click one link in your quest for bike advice, I wholeheartedly recommend the website of the sorely-missed Sheldon Brown. Brammers (talk) 18:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

It was a <$100 bike from Target though, so I don't think it was entirely my fault. But I think you are right that I did not maintain it as well as I should have, and intend to with this new bike. Thanks for the great advice though, and using this bike is an attempt to avoid doing a car payment or getting a used car, when I can do bike + public transport instead. I suppose I just don't have an idea of what bikes actually cost. But I appreciate the help and suggestions. Chris M. (talk) 19:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah, a bike that cheap probably wouldn't be too solid to start with — and I apologise for the accidental insinuation that you deliberately neglect your bike; it wasn't intended. I don't drive, biking anywhere within about five miles of my home (or the 13 to my grandmother's house) and train and bike wherever feasible for anything further afield. If you have a library nearby, a good book to read on cycling in general is Richard's Bicycle Book (any version) by Richard Ballantine. It's a useful read for a introduction to bikes, accessories etc, so probably worth taking out on loan. It also includes a (if I recall correctly) balanced chapter on whether to wear a helmet or not. Personally I don't, but it's massive flamebait so I shan't go into why here. Happy cycling! Brammers (talk) 21:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks! Chris M. (talk) 20:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Pardon my interfering response but if you're short of cash and you need to ask this basic advice, and you don't sound too "up" on maintaining a bike, and are going to have to oil the gears and chain and hub and keep the bike clean, might I respectfully suggest that all of that expense and effort to bike just a quarter to half a mile twice a day may not actually be worth it. And by the time you have purchased a thief proof lock and a tyre pump and lights and batteries and a puncture repair outfit and a crash helmet (essential) and insect mask and gloves, you will probably spend twice your bike budget. And what about the time and inconvenience of unlocking the bike and locking it up every time you park it? Doesn't seem worth it to me when a nice brisk 10 minute stroll will get you where you want to go twice each day. The most you would have to spend in that circumstance would be on an umbrella. But I repeat - forgive my intrusion - maybe pedestrians aren't allowed to walk to your bus stop. Good luck. I shall now await the flak.92.30.75.11 (talk) 19:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I find the extent of my bike accessories to probably be a pump and a lock. I hardly think an insect mask and gloves are even remotely useful for what amounts to a relatively minor use. Locking and unlocking is a minute or so (max) affair each, and only happen once a day, hardly a problem there. It's possible my estimate on distance is a little off but a walk would definitely take longer then 10 minutes. Also, the aforementioned lack of sidewalks makes walking to the stop a seriously bad idea under less-then perfect conditions (like if there's mud). I appreciate the comments though :).

I agree bikes with hub gears would be better than deraullier gears. Unfortunately hub gears are harder to find. But, if its only 1/4 to 1/2 a mile why don't you walk? It should take between five and ten minutes. I'm curious what happens to the bike when you get to the bus stop. For such a short distance any bike will do. The first time I read it I thought you had written 14 miles. 78.146.206.38 (talk) 23:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, my estimate was off. I realized I have no real concept of distance. I checked yesterday and it's 2.1 miles. The buses here (Charlotte, NC, US) have bike racks on the front so it rides with me to downtown and I have a place I can lock it up there at work.Chris M. (talk) 20:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the guy is saying there is no sidewalk (pavement in UK lingo), so he'd have to walk either in a dangerous and busy street or through people's muddy lawns (UK: gardens). (There are areas like this in the United States.) Also, he thinks it would take more than 10 minutes to walk, so it is probably really more than half a mile. Considering all of this, I can see why he might want to take a bike. However, the point about mud raises an issue: Leaving your bike out in the rain repeatedly will damage it. During my days of bicycle commuting, I walked and took transit on days when heavy rain was expected. If walking really wasn't an option, I'd try to find some kind of plastic covering to shield the bike while it is locked outdoors on rainy days. Marco polo (talk) 02:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, no pavement/sidewalk on the way there. and it's 2.1 miles, my mistake. And the bike won't be in the rain at work, or at home, so it's less of an issue. Chris M. (talk) 20:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It may actually be half a mile and he may be misestimating the walking time. I've found that many people who don't walk regularly will often greatly overestimate the amount of time that walking takes. As if they've subconsciously accepted the idea that you need a vehicle to get anywhere. APL (talk) 16:30, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

1/4 to 1/2 mile? that's a 10 minute walk (less at a brisk pace). save the money, make the walk; less hassle and better exercise over that distance anyway. --Ludwigs2 03:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

People here are recommending $400 and $500 bikes - but you have to ask whether such a beast would indeed last 4 to 5 times longer than a $100 bike under similar conditions and maintainance regimen? I strongly suspect not. SteveBaker (talk) 03:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Wouldnt the greater danger be of having the bicycle stolen rather than it wearing out? You'd be better off with a cheaper bike. Although the cheaper adult bikes can be physically small in my experience. A better bike would encourage the OP to do recreational cycling and get some exercise. 89.243.151.96 (talk) 12:53, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Me interfering again - so why provide bus stops on a road where pedestrians can't walk?? 92.30.74.189 (talk) 09:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

A suburb with no sidewalk/pavements must be terribly isolating for children. Not only would they find it difficult to go and see their friends and play and explore, but they have no opportunities for exercise. So poor social skills and obesity. 89.243.151.96 (talk) 13:00, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Do not, do not, do NOT buy a bicycle from Target or (God forbid) Walmart. In the cycling community, what they sell in the "Bikes" sections are often referred to as "BSOs," or Bicycle-Shaped Objects. The problem you've had may very well be the bike you bought. In any case, though, paying two hundred dollars to avoid walking less than a mile a day sounds a little odd to me. AlexHOUSE (talk) 19:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Hold on a moment...let's think carefully about that. Suppose our OP gets paid for working overtime at (let's say) $12 an hour. Saving even 5 minutes morning and evening would allow our questioner to work an extra 10 minutes each day without affecting leisure time - earning $2.00 per day in the process. A $200 bike would pay for itself in just 100 working days - about 5 months. If (s)he earns $24 an hour and saves 10 minutes morning and evening and buys a $100 piece of junk - then it pays for itself in a little under 3 weeks. SteveBaker (talk) 20:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Lol, lots of additional comments. This road is a more major road and there aren't a lot of houses on it, there are a lot of side roads into little neighborhoods with their own sidewalks (like mine). I'm not worried about theft because it will be in a secure location at both ends. the closest stop to me is 2.1 miles away, but after that there is some sidewalk, and a busstop every quarter mile at least. But a lot of people do park and ride things to save gas, and some do just walk on the grass I suppose. And I know I gave a crappy estimate before, but it's really 2.1 miles, not a half mile, sorry! :) Chris M. (talk) 20:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

If there is a good bike shop in town, ask the owner about used bikes. Or, post a want ad near the local high school. Saving a bundle on the purchase price by buying something used seems like one solution to your problem. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I bike for a mile and back every day and the bike cost around $150. It needed a lock, and eventually needed fixing but it is still usable. ~AH1^(TCU) 01:07, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's a little bicycle primer: there are two main types of bikes: road bikes, which are made to go fast and have skinny, smooth-ish tires which are about 27" in diameter; and mountain bikes, which are made to ride on unpacked dirt and have fat, knobby tires which are usually 26" in diameter (hybrid bikes strike a balance between the two, but they're pretty trendy currently so there's a lot of junk out there). Road bikes were big in the '70s and into the '80s, and mountain bikes were big in the '90s and continue to be popular because they're perceived to be more comfortable to ride for short distances. When you're riding on pavement, though, all those knobby tires do is create friction and make it harder to pedal the bike.

Since you know you'll be riding on pavement and you want to cover ground quickly and easily, what you want is a road bike (or a "touring bike", which is essentially the same thing). Well, you're in luck. People are constantly selling decent road bikes from the '70s and '80s for rock bottom prices. You can probably find one at a yard sale or on craigslist for $50 or less. Bike stores will often take bikes like that, fix them up, and sell them as "commuter bikes" for $400+. These bikes are steel-framed, meaning they're fairly heavy and not nearly as light and fast as today's racing bikes, but they're sturdy, absorb shock fairly well, and are perfect for taking you a few miles to the bus stop at 18mph. They're certainly better than the junk they sell at big box stores.

My suggestion would be to find one of these yard sale bikes and take it for a spin. Listen and feel for clunking sounds coming from the bottom bracket, which is the mechanism that connects the pedals together. As long as the bottom bracket is fine, the bike isn't rusted through, and the ride feels good, the bike is probably fundamentally ok. Now look at the tires. If they're popped or threadbare, you should be able to replace them, the inner tubes, and the tape which lines the wheel rim for $50-70. Hate the seat? You can probably find one you like for $15-30. Are the brake pads worn down? New ones can be had for $5-10. Grip tape for the handlebars will be <$5, a new chain will be $5-10 if the current one is slack or rusty, and new brake and shifter cables should be about $5 a pair if those are rusty. You can find plenty of tutorials online for how to change all that stuff, and the only equipment you'll need is an adjustable wrench or two, plus a chain tool ($5-10) if you need to swap the chain and some tire levers ($4) for the tires. It's even easy to swap out the handlebars if you want a different style than the one that comes on the bike. If you buy a fixed-up older bike from a store, all of this will have been done for you, but you'll pay a premium for it. The most cost-effective tactic, in my experience, is to buy a sturdy older bike, fix what needs fixin', and then fix other stuff as it breaks. You'll learn as you go, and basic bicycle maintenance is certainly not rocket science. Being able to perform basic maintenance like patching a tire and adjusting brakes will pay off in the long run. As a side note, always, always, always oil your moving parts, especially when they get wet, and give your bike a good cleaning a few times a year. That'll prevent a lot of problems before they start. Also, if you don't have a bike pump with a pressure gauge, get one. Keeping your tires at the right air pressure will deter flats and keep you moving fast. - Fullobeans (talk) 04:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Good info. The only caveat I'd have is that while a skinny/smooth tyred street bike is undoubtedly way faster and smoother than a mountain bike or a BMX bike or something - the tyres are much more prone to getting punctured. If your are cycling over distances that you could comfortably walk - then getting an occasional flat isn't a disaster, you can walk home and fix it at your leisure. But if you're biking several miles then this can be a major pain (especially if it makes you late for work) and you might want to consider those chunky, knobbly tyres just because they are less prone to getting punctured. SteveBaker (talk) 18:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

One way to minimize flats on road bikes it to use some "Slime" inside the inner tube, a product that includes some Kevlar good & tends to make small punctures self-heal. - Jmabel | Talk 18:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Evolution

How is it that there can be such a widespread debate in the USA concerning weather or not evolution should and could be taught in scvhools and weather or not it is correct? Do they not follow a curiculum that states Teacher need to teach XYZ. I really dont understand this, if a teacher choosed to teach his pupils that 1 + 1 = 7 this would be wrong. so how cabn teachers and schools decide to teach what they like or what they personally beleive. And does teaching intelligenmt design not go against the seperation of schools and religion in such that I was told that one was not allowed to pray in American schools for this reason. Please explain this to me. PS, I have read the articles associated with the subject but they fail to address these questions in my opinion. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 19:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

You mean whether not weather, nor wether.

Thanks. Much appreciated, twas bothering me.

78.146.206.38 (talk) 23:50, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

One complication is that the USA does not have a nationwide curriculum. The curriculum is set, usually, at the school district level; there are a lot of these; this page says there were 14,841 school districts as of 1997. Policy for the school district is usually set by the school board. There's one school board for each district. A few of these thousands of school boards are full of creationists, some of whom are bent on, as our Intelligent Design articles state, promoting Christianity in the schools, and destroying atheism; some of these people see evolution as an atheist evil trick to turn people away from Jesus Christ, and therefore they are bound to fight this trend. Certain school boards have therefore introduced creationism (with its new name, "intelligent design") into their curriculum, and/or have mandated that the teacher stress to the students that evolution is speculative and unproven. As you imply, there is a separation of church and state in the US, and these controversies are around public schools (in the US, "public school" means government-financed). In 1968, the US Supreme Court struck down a state law forbidding the teaching of evolution, in Epperson v. Arkansas, and it wasn't until Edwards v. Aguillard (1987) that the teaching of creationism in US public schools was actually declared unconstitutional — the reason being, this advocates a particular religion, which is not something that any government in the US is allowed to do, because of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Anyway, many of these creationists also fight the separation of church and state itself on an ongoing basis; they think proselytizing is more important, so the separation is unimportant to them. Kansas evolution hearings and Intelligent design in politics are relevant articles. As a side note, few people in the US care if a US private school — most are owned and run by churches — teaches that evolution is false, despite the laws that require private schools to provide a thorough education for their clients. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Those same creationists also argue that mandating the teaching of evolution violates the separation of church and state as well, as it is similarly advocating the particular religions that don't have a problem with it. —Akrabbim^talk 19:48, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I have edited my paragraph above to mention the two SCOTUS court cases, and removed "government-run" from my brief definition of public schools, because a technically correct explanation would be too wordy and probably beyond my comprehension. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Attitudes to school teaching of evolution in the USA are often ambivalent as in the statements of a recent candidate for vice president who "supports allowing the discussion of creationism in public schools, but is not in favor of teaching it as part of the curriculum". Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

While there is no national curriculum, there may be state curricula that mandate the teaching of one thing or another. That's what led to the above-mentioned controversy over state science standards in Kansas. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

What's worse is that large school districts can push the textbook publishers to write books to fit their curriculum - but small school districts pretty much have to take what they can get. So this is by no means a reasonable process! SteveBaker (talk) 03:18, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

There is "such a widespread debate" not because teachers are overly autonomous but, on the contrary, because state policy is centralized by its nature. (I use 'state' in the broad sense, rather than 'member of the USA'.) If there were no state schools, it would not be an issue; children would go to the schools whose teachings best approximate what the parents want them to learn. But taxpayers naturally are concerned about what is done in their name and with their money; and when a tax-supported entity has a stated mission to indoctrinate all the children, the parents also are naturally concerned about what is done with their children. So, as you say, an official curriculum is adopted at some level – and it inevitably offends some faction with a legitimate interest. —Tamfang (talk) 22:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to respectfully take issue with the OP's contention that prayer is not allowed in US public schools. Anyone can pray at any time anywhere. What's not allowed as unconstitutional are group prayers initiated by a school official.Chief41074 (talk) 17:17, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. It's the coercive nature of group prayers that's unconstitutional. I think they make an exception for the Pledge of Allegiance, as that's not really a "prayer". Individuals (silently) praying would be just fine - and I would guess there's plenty of that going on at Final Exam time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Those against teaching evolution in schools are often evangelicals. ~AH1^(TCU) 01:05, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Does anyones know the name of this movie??

The movie is about a girl who is with this guy who used to be amish and he went back to his amish community to visit. and he was drving in his car with his younger brother and wrecked the car and his brother flew from the car and lived but his brother didnt. Now the girl of the guy that died had to marry his younger brother who was like 13. And she got him to run away from the Amish community. Does anyone know what movie im talking about and know the name??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myra10193 (talk • contribs) 20:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps For Richer or Poorer (1997). Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

No one died in that movie. Googlemeister (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree with above replies. For Richer or Poorer was a Tim Allen/ Kirsty Alley comedy. Movie as described does not sound familiar. Entertainment Ref. Desk may be a better place to ask? --220.101.28.25 (talk) 05:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

[5] has some movies and TV shows in some ways involving Amish people none of which sound like the above description. [6] has something similar including some which I don't think were in the earlier link and I checked out some of those but didn't notice anything similar. Amish#Portrayal in popular entertainment also lists stuff besides moviews and TV series. You may want to look more carefully since I didn't look that well. Nil Einne (talk) 19:53, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I can't remember the plot, but it could be Deadly Blessing. Not memorable— I found it only because I remembered it starred Ernest Borgnine . ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 20:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Holy Matrimony? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:48, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds a good candidate. I was wondering if the OP remembered wrongly and the movie didn't concern the Amish but some other isolated community and did a quick search but didn't find anythign Nil Einne (talk) 12:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Airline seat width history

Following the recent flurry of coverage regarding Kevin Smith's ejection from a Southwest flight and ensuing ranting, I've seen a few people on message boards say matter-of-factly (and of course without a reliable source) that airline seats are narrower than they once were. Is this true? 71.161.59.15 (talk) 22:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

This article seems to have some information on the subject (more specifically, about the number of seats crammed into aircraft of the same size, and how this figure has changed over time, but it's obviously related!). ╟─TreasuryTag►CANUKUS─╢ 22:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Narrower seems unlikely; on most aircraft (including the Boeing 737s that comprise Southwest's fleet) there's not a lot of leeway for width. What does vary (and has generally become more compact) is seat pitch, the distance between seats in the front-to-back direction. That hurts tall guys more than fat guys, though. Note that there is width variance between different types of planes, but this argument is a complete non-starter when it comes to Southwest. — Lomn 23:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Pitch is a function of how the airline chose to set up the seats. Airline seats are bolted to track(s) on the floor (and, in some models, along the outboard wall) - the track looks like this. Seats can be positioned to a granularity of about an inch. New airliners are almost always furnished by the maker to the specification of the airine buying the aircraft. It's not uncommon for buyers of second-hand airliners (such as charter companies) to replace the first class seats with regular ones, and to tighten the pitch so they can put in a few more rows. There isn't very much an airline can do about width; economy in 737s is a standard 3+3 layout, and always has been. The isle width is fixed, so they just divide up the remaining space. There's no way they could cram in a seventh seat, and running 2+3 would be such a huge revenue hit that a normal airline isn't going to do that, except for a few higher-priced rows. So really 737 seats in economy are the same size they've always been (the article TreasuryTag found notes that 737's competitor, Airbus' A319/A320 is a few inches wider, giving every ass an extra inch or so). The seats might feel narrower, however - if the pitch is small, people are more likely to want to sit with their knees apart. And there's clearly been a move, over the last couple of decades, toward budget shorthaul airlines that pitch tight because they know you'll only be there an hour or two. cf this terrifying (and possibly true?) photo. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 01:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I think people are fatter than they used to be too. --Polysylabic Pseudonym (talk) 04:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

OR obviously: I disagree; I think in the way old days, plenty of highly successful businessmen were massive in size, mainly because they could afford to eat. It's just that they had no reason to fly. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 12:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The 737 is probably a poor example due to it's size but for larger aircraft there usually is some leeway in how many seats go into a row of the economy class. For example, the Boeing 777 can fit 9 or 10 in the economy class, 9 is by far the most common (usually 3-3-3 o 2-5-2 I think) but a few do fit 10 (3-4-3 I think). Some have suggested 9 as a theoretical possibility for the A340 which usually fits 8 although from a quick search I didn't find anyone actually name an airline confirmed to use such a config. Somehowever do do it with the A330 apparently (3-3-3 instead of the normal 2-4-2). There may be similar examples on other large aircraft although do note that these configs may not be through the entire aircraft and from what I can tell they're generally quite rare even when they do exist. [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]. Some of the refs have some mention of specific seat widths as well. Nil Einne (talk) 12:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I have no doubt that seat width has not significantly changed within the use of a single airplane model. Perhaps I should have stated my question more clearly. I was wondering if the width of an airplane seat from the 50s, for example, was wider than they are these days. -the OP 20.137.18.50 (talk) 13:09, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

That seems reasonable on the surface (when jet travel was a real luxury), but again, that's not really the issue that's being discussed. The 737 has been in service for forty-two years. It's based on the fuselage (thus having the same width and 3-3 seating plan) of the 707, which entered service in 1958. "Seats narrower than they used to be" is only barely more interesting than "I walked uphill to school both ways". "These days" encompasses a much larger stretch of time than you'd think at first glance. — Lomn 15:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Following up with data: the de Havilland Comet, the first jet airliner, was indeed more spacious. It had a fuselage width of 117 inches, and the early models seated at most a 2-2 plan (the very early ones list some 36-passenger models, so those were probably even less). That's 29 inches per person (though naturally, seat width is less -- there's the frame, the aisle, etc, but I think those can be generalized out for comparison). However, the latter models went to 5-across, for 23 inches per person. The Boeing 707 and Douglas DC-8, both introduced in 1958 and ushering in modern jet airliner service, were 6 across and 148" and 147" wide, respectively. That's 25 inches per person, both wider than the late-model (i.e. modern-capacity) Comets. Those numbers have not significantly changed in the 50 years since. Mass-market commercial air travel has always had the same seat width. — Lomn 15:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

To put it a different way, this was all long before Kevin Smith was even born Nil Einne (talk) 16:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I recall at least some standard jets that were 2 + 3. I can also recall 1970s ads for Continental, "The Proud Bird with the Golden Tail", which said, "Pride took a seat out." I wonder which model jet that was? I would have thought it was a 737, but it's been awhile since I've flown on a 2 + 3; all the planes I've been on in recent years were 3 + 3. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Certainly there are still 2-3 jets; Delta's flying the MD-88 with them right now. The MD-88 is also a narrower aircraft than the 737 and many others. It's 26 inches per person -- slightly wider, but within normal variances. If anything, you need to narrow the per-person estimates of the smaller planes more to get to your actual width, as fuselage curvature becomes more significant. The ERJ-145, for instance, is 90 inches wide in a 1-2 configuration (30 inches per person! More than the early Comet!) and I can vouch that they're certainly not giving you Lay-z-boys in those. — Lomn 17:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Not historical, but here's current data for seat widths (and pitches, and lots of other stuff): seatguru.com The de facto standard for US-based airlines is 17"-18" actual width. Only one aircraft (Delta's extremely tiny prop plane) goes below 17", only one type of plane (the aforementioned Embraers) goes over (and only to 18.25"). — Lomn 17:29, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Wider seats do exist. I flew a few times on a private jet fitted out with large leather armchairs facing across the cabin. All very James Bond, but not usually available to the general public. It was pretty weird taking off with my back to the window. Astronaut (talk) 02:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Need I point out that this is a highly American-centric discussion? Asian airlines have narrower seats in economy class than do European or American airlines, but there is also (IMHO) more width in business and first class. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:16, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

? Some of the refs I provided included Asian airlines, e.g. [12]. I don't see any evidence Asian airlines are particularly abnormal. Also since they're using the same commercial aeroplanes it's not entirely clear why their seats are going to be a lot narrower unless they're fitting more seats which is something we've already discussed. The budget airlines may use the narrow configs/more seats, e.g. AirAsia uses the 3-3-3 I mentioned above in their A330s [13] but then so do some budget airlines in Europe and the US. The more high end airlines appear to generally use the more standard configs. Nil Einne (talk) 12:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm chuckling because I recently saw some movies circa 1940 – Foreign Correspondent was one – in which an air cabin looks like a lounge. —Tamfang (talk) 22:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

February 18

Where to download public domain music

Is there any malware free sites that I could use to download public domain music (probably mp3's)? I assume that the restriction on downloadable music files only affect copyrighted material.--121.54.2.188 (talk) 02:09, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Public domain music may be of some help. SteveBaker (talk) 03:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Note that there is a difference between public domain (no copyright) and copyleft (copyrighted but under terms that encourage downloading, circulating, and re-use). You will probably find more copyleft music than public domain music. There is a lot of Creative Commons-licensed music out there. It is not public domain—depending on the license, there are some restrictions on what you can do with it—but it is all freely downloadable. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

http://www.archive.org/details/audio —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.89.27 (talk) 14:03, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

One place I can think of that has a large directory of public domain or Creative Commons licensed music is [Hexagon.cc]. There should be a link to the "Creative Commons" group on the front page (otherwise you can search for it, I suppose), which only includes music/movies/other files that are free and legal to download. It is a torrent site, though, so you'll need a Bittorrent client of some kind. (and remember that not everything on the site is in the public domain or legal to download; only the stuff under the Creative Commons group is more or less guaranteed to be legal to download) 24.247.163.175 (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, it is illegal to download copyrighted music in the US but not elsewhere. If it's not illegal, then LimeWire or a similar software could be used to download copyrighted files, but we will not give any legal advice on this matter. ~AH1^(TCU) 01:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Err, what? You don't remember correctly (and are, in essence, giving fairly bad legal advice!). There are some questions about the laws of a few, specific countries, but in general, downloading copyrighted music is almost surely going to be seen as a violation of intellectual property laws. Even in these few countries it is likely just a matter of time before either their courts or lawmakers change the laws around. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Temperature

Why does my outdoor hottub feel hotter than my indoor bathtub when each is 100 degrees F?Accdude92 (talk to me!) 02:36, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

What you're probably feeling outside is a greater difference in temperature; the hot tub isn't necessarily warmer, but your body thinks it is because you're going to 38 °C (100 °F) from 5 °C (41 °F), rather than from 21 °C (70 °F). Xenon54 / talk / 02:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Another possible factor is how much heat you lose through the part of your skin that's not underwater. If more skin is exposed, you feel cooler, so the depth of the water has an effect. If the air is cooler or less humid, you lose more heat and again feel cooler. --Anonymous, 05:08 UTC, February 18, 2010.

Perhaps the turbulent flow of the jets results in better heat transfer to your body, by disrupting the boundary layer. -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

or we could go with the practical solution - where is the temperature gauge located on each? the outdoor tub will have a greater differential in temperature between the heating element and the distal surface (since the open, colder air will allow for quicker evaporation and quicker cooling) and so its entirely possible that the outdoor tub is actually hotter if the temperature regulator is set in the colder part of the tub - the tub will be maintaining 100° at it's coldest region. --Ludwigs2 22:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Books.

Does anyone know any good books that cover Japanese wars and warfare before the industrial age? ¨¨¨¨ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joneleth (talk • contribs) 07:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

See the article Stephen Turnbull (historian), who is an Historian specialising in the Japanese Samurai/Feudal era. There is a list of his many books on the subject. See also Genpei War, Battle of Sekigahara, Battles of Kawanakajima and Sengoku Jidai—220.101.28.25 (talk) 16:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

List of Japanese battles may be useful for further references. I would personally suggest this book: "Secrets of the Samurai: A Survey of the Martial Arts of Feudal Japan'" (9780785810735): Oscar Ratti, Adele Westbrook, Publisher: Charles E. Tuttle and Company Inc. See it here at books.google.com. Although a general "Survey of the Martial Arts of Feudal Japan", the close connection between martial arts and warfare in Japan means it covers a lot of history, Samurai weaponry, armour etc.220.101.28.25 (talk) 16:59, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

A very readable overview of pre-Meiji Japan is Stephen Turnbull's "The Samurai - A Military History"[14]. Recommended. Alansplodge (talk) 18:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

software

I have a scan paper of a book , by a software I convert it into a ms-word but in ms word some mistake like spelling mistake , change some word occur . There is any software by which I can chek this where is the mistake is occur.Supriyochowdhury (talk) 14:29, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Microsoft Word has a built-in spelling and grammar checker which may help. However you should be aware that it only checks that the word exists, not that it is correct. So if your reader software read "rate" as "rat" then the spellchecker won't catch it. Better checkers are available, put reading the document is the only reliable way. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you try scanning the same words printed on a piece of paper but with the font OCR A Extended, which should be available in notepad on a Windows machine. That font was specifically designed to be machine readable. If you do this and it suddenly works without the spelling errors, then you know that the problem was with your converter program being able to read the font of your original document. If you get the same spelling errors, then that leaves the problem that the converter program might have a bug. Sorry I don't have any software suggestions per your request. 20.137.18.50 (talk) 14:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem is often a poor scan (your brain is much better at recognising the text than any computer); a better scan can avoid many OCR errors. Some tips for improving the result are: scan at the highest resolution you can; make sure the document glass on your scanner is entirely clean; put a sheet of black paper behind the scan to minimise the transmission of light reflected off the back of the scanner shining back through the paper (so you get a ghost of the text on the reverse surface of the page); make sure the scanning software is using a loss-less image format (like TIFF), or if it must use JPEG make it use the least (ideally no) compression; experiment with contrast settings in the scan software (the OCR program should be able to do this itself, but some don't do a good job). -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 14:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

OCR is a difficult problem and it's far from 100% solved. Many OCR programs proudly proclaim "99% accuracy!" - which means that in a typical page of text, there are going to be a dozen errors. Many (if not all) of them use a spell-checker dictionary to help them to get better answers - so it's highly likely that the errors they make will pass a spell check with 100% success. SteveBaker (talk) 17:42, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

finding a hotel

Hello, I am looking to spend a weekend away in a hotel, I have two european eagle owls, which I am very devoted to and they never leave my side, they are what I would call my greatest friends. The thing is as they have been brought up around humans they believe themselves to be human and sometimes consider other people to be a threat to me as they are teritorial. If you have ever been attacked by an eagle owl you will know that it is not something you forget! Is it best to try and find a hotel where I can stay with my owls, or to bring them in under wraps and leave a do not disturb sign on the door, I cannot leave the owls and I must make this visit. Perpetualmotionlemus (talk) 17:14, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Saying where you want to go would be helpful. I would also suggest that you check on the legal situation of keeping birds of prey in the place you want to go to. It may be illegal. No hotel is going to welcome them without prior arrangements. I would suggest contacting a small hotel or B&B in the place you want to go to and explain your situation. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you'd find it difficult or impossible to find a hotel that would take them. I suggest leaving them in their cage (assuming they've got one) and asking someone to feed and water them while you are away. Or sleep in the car with them. I'm curious what you do when you go shopping or have other interactions with strangers away from home. 89.242.89.218 (talk) 15:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Given that this question is the OP's only "contribution",[15] I wouldn't necessarily assume that the question is on the level. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Bugs, I wish you would stop complaining about IPs and "drive bys". Just stop it. We IP users are not all trolls. Some people with usernames occasionally edit under an IP. This is not against any Wikipedia guideline or policy. Knock it off, please. 24.120.166.97 (talk) 20:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

If you'll put aside your righteous indignation for a second and think logically, note that the OP said the owls "never leave his side". Assuming he works for a living, how likely is it that his company would be tolerant of an employee bringing wild animals to work? Not very. This is almost certainly a "joke" question. But whether a joke or sincere, you can't deny it paints a funny mental picture. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:59, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

No mention of IP editing was made, and I too am very suspicious of a question with a bizarre premise which is a named editor's first and only contribution. AGF or not, a little Occam's razor goes a long way. --LarryMac | Talk 14:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Isn't a "do not disturb sign" sign for when you are in the room? Won't the hotel cleaning service expect a moment to come in to tidy up? Bus stop (talk) 15:48, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

How the cleaners respond varies from one hotel to the next. IMHO, "Do not disturb" should mean "do not disturb" (don't knock on the door), so it shouldn't matter whether anyone is in there or not—it's none of their business. There's been times that I've needed a hotel to sleep in all day when working nights, and cleaners who insist on knocking at 11:00 am "to make sure" are annoying. Similarly, my wife has left crated dogs in hotel rooms (as permitted by hotel policy) and put the sign up so that the cleaners don't knock or come in, agitating the dogs. -- Coneslayer (talk) 16:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no way you should sneak the owls in. If they were discovered, the proprietor may be within their rights to call Animal Control and have them captured and destroyed. This would be an extreme reaction, but a panicky maid with an exaggerated story would be bad news for you. The idea above of contacting a bed and breakfast seems like a good one to me; they would probably be a lot more accommodating than a hotel that has to abide by a bunch of corporate rules, or a motel that's accustomed to occasional guests who trash the rooms. 24.120.166.97 (talk) 20:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

If the question is sincere, then calling ahead is the obvious course to take. Some establishments will allow pets, and if they don't, sneaking them in would put those "beloved" animals at great risk of being confiscated. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Since you ask Baseball I (and the owls) work for a small airport, the owls keep pigeons and other birds away from the runways where they are a nuisance and can be sucked into the engines of planes. DJ Clayworth I am going to Manchester in the UK. I have called a few B&B and one of them sounded like they might be ok with the owls as long as I am with them at all times and take meals in my rooms. Thank you for all your help Perpetualmotionlemus (talk) 14:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Since you're a professional owl handler (falconer? strigider?), Perpetualmotionlemus, you are probably already aware if there are (as DJ Clayworth mentioned above) any legal restrictions that might affect your importing owls (even temporarily) into and out of the UK. In case you're not, however, this [16] page of a UK Government website site might be helpful. Note that European Union and International (e.g. CITES) rules potentially also apply. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 18:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You'd be better trying a camp site, with a tent. Even if this involves driving a few miles into Manchester. If you are from outside the UK then you would have a lot of zealously enforced regulations about importing or exporting animals to deal with, possibly including long periods of quarantine. In your situation I would pay an avery or whatever to look after them while you are away. You may feel attached to your owls, but they probably couldnt care less about you. 92.29.57.43 (talk) 00:10, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

job

I'm a student.I want earn some money for helping my family and to carry on my study.There is any job on computer (om line or off line ).please give me the link which in not fake.Supriyochowdhury (talk) 18:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

You might find a job doing tech support via the telephone. Edison (talk) 20:05, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It depends where you live, but many countries/continents have a healthy IT recruitment sector. In my experience, the jobs advertised on the websites of major recruitment businesses are never "fake". However, as a student - presumably with no (or very little) experience in information technology - you will find the vast majority of potential employers have a need for at least some months relevant experience for even the most graduate/junior roles.

One thing to note: I don't know what it is like in your country, but here in the UK I would never expect to pay a recruitment company to find me a job (I suspect it is actually illegal). Recruitment companies get paid by the employer to find suitable candidates. If they ask you for money, it creates a potential conflict of interest where they could put forward only the candidates that paid the most rather then the best suited for the job. I think that if they do ask you for money, they are much more likely to be scamming you.

Alternatively, like Edison says above, tech support via telephone might be a good place to start and easier to find work as a student. Or, perhaps you could place an advert (eg. in the local newspaper) offering PC support services to people in your community. Astronaut (talk) 02:12, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to guess from your user name that you are from India or maybe Bangladesh. Most of us on the Reference Desk live in the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, or Australia, where the job market may be very different from India's (or Bangladesh's). You say that you are a student. Most universities in the United States have offices that help students find employment. Have you tried talking to someone at your university or college whose job it is to help students find jobs? They would surely have a better idea how you can find work than any of us on the Reference Desk. That said, I have just had an idea that may be totally useless, but I will share it anyway, in case it is some help. When I was traveling in India, I found that there are Internet shops with computers in every town and in every part of every city. Surely all of these Internet shops need technical support. You could offer your services, at a low rate (at first) to some of these shops in your area. The best way to do that would be to have some business cards made, dress sharply, and visit these Internet shops in person. You will want to speak to the owner or manager in person, and come back again if he (or she) isn't in when you stop by. If they try you and are happy with your work, they could become references who could attest to your experience and the quality of your work if you wanted to apply for a steadier position at a business process outsourcing firm. Marco polo (talk) 02:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Think what you are good at - there are quite a few things one can do from home to earn money - graphics, web page design, proofreading, searching the internet for information... I once actually found a website where people post orders and you can give your price estimate on how much you would want for the task, but I can't find it right now...

I'll find it for you for only £5... Warofdreams talk 14:19, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

What about web developer or part-time job? ~AH1^(TCU) 01:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I WOULD LIKE TO

HI, I USE EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG FEQUENTLY AND ENJOY IT. BUT I DO WISH THAT THE MORE I LOOK UP, YOU KNOW WHEN THE PAGES DOES'NT EXIST, I WISH THEY WOULD.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW I WOULD PUT YOU AS A CONTACT ON MY EMAIL'S CONTACT LIST, WHAT WOULD I PUT? WIKIPEDIA.ORG? OR EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.238.200.138 (talk) 18:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

First, please don't type in ALL CAPS. It is perceived as shouting and is considered rude.

Second, agreed, it's annoying when pages don't exist. But sometimes that is how it is.

Third, there is no single Wikipedia contact, so I'm not sure what the point of putting it on a contact list would be. It isn't one person writing these—it is an army of volunteers who write, edit, haggle, delete, etc. everything you read on here. There isn't one point of contact. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

For things to exist, they have to pass a lot of rules...WP:NOTE and WP:SOURCE should get you started. A lot of things aren't notable or don't have enough sources (the two go hand in hand; sources make something notable), so they get deleted. Vimescarrot (talk) 20:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

It's actually becoming rather unusual for a "notable" subject to not have an article. Often you need to search for it - or to try a different set of words or capitalisation. However, if an article doesn't exist - and you think it should, you can suggest it at: Wikipedia:Articles for creation. The volunteers there may be able to help you to start the article - providing the subject is sufficiently notable and that "references" can be found about it...and if not, they will usually patiently explain why we don't have an article. SteveBaker (talk) 20:29, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

If you could provide us with a few examples of things you searched for and didn't find articles for, we might be able to help. 24.120.166.97 (talk) 20:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

On it being unusual for notable subjects to not have an article: I dunno. If you are interested in esoteric but notable subjects it is easy to find articles that do not yet exist. For example, I am interested in the early history and exploration of the Pacific Northwest. On this topic there are a number of notable people who have no Wikipedia page, such as James Hanna, Nathaniel Portlock, Frances Barkley, Juan Pantoja y Arriaga, and so on. I've also noticed we have no page on the great Spanish hydrographer, cartographer, and admiral, Vincente Tofino de San Miguel. Just a few examples here. But I regularly come across articles that could and should exist, but don't. Also, it is interesting how if you look at the page Trafalgar order of battle and casualties you find that every British ship and captain involved has a page, and every French ship has a page, but only some captain do, and almost every Spanish ship and captain do not. I suspect there is some lesson there about how English wikipedia editors choose what to write about. Pfly (talk) 11:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

We do have a portrait of Nathaniel Portlock to get you started!

People certainly do choose to write about what interests them the most - which introduces a certain systemic bias. We are a volunteer group - and if nobody happens to be interested in a particular topic, then probably no article will ever be written on that topic. There is no "overseerer of all human knowledge" who's job it is to tell people what needs to be written about. That's why we have really detailed articles about every single railway station in Japan - but nothing whatever about Nathaniel Portlock. There are a bunch of Japanese railway 'nuts' who are incredibly productive in churning out articles - but (evidently) nobody here who cares very much about 18th century navigators. But also it's a matter of finding verifiable/referenceable data about them - and for Spanish sea captains, that's going to be difficult for predominantly English-speaking editors who would probably need to glean information from books written in Spanish that are not to be found in British, American or Australian public libraries.

If you are interested in this subject area - then I strongly suggest you start writing some of these articles yourself. Join your local library - find books on the subject - learn what you can (and note those books for use as references in your articles). From what I could see, at least some of the people you mention meet the Wikipedia WP:PEOPLE notability standards and they certainly should have articles. You might also go to the "Talk:" pages of some of the biographies of other people from that era and ask there for people to help you put these new articles together.

A little detective-work reveals a lot about these articles. For example:

While Nathaniel Portlock doesn't have an article, Joseph Ellison Portlock (who was his son) does. Why is that? Well, we can look at the "history" tab for that article and see who wrote it. It seems that the first version was contributed by User:DanielCD in 2005 - who got it (along with about 100,000 other articles) from the Encyclopædia Britannica, Eleventh Edition (which - being out of copyright - was typed almost entirely into Wikipedia without changes). So the reason we have an article about Joseph - but not Nathaniel is most likely that the Britannica simply didn't write one. Hardly any changes to Joseph's article have been made since then - probably because there are no editors here who care very much about that specific topic.

Another place to go to get help with biographical stuff is Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography. There are a lot of experienced Wikipedia editors who support that project - and I'm sure you'd get a lot of practical support from them if you wanted to write something. The way people become "experts" in a field of study is that they transition from being merely "interested" in it and reading avidly about it - to becoming an active contributor. It sounds very much like (with a bit of prodding) you could become that person. I sincerely hope so - because plugging important gaps in Wikipedia's coverage is a vital part of what we do here.

SteveBaker (talk) 19:39, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Yep. Not everyone realizes these things. I think the original poster's questions/comments were addressed (you can request an article, write it yourself, etc). As for me, I'm slolwy doing just the things you say, and am already the kind of editor you hope I could become! Nathaniel Portlock doesn't exist yet (and I didn't know we had a picture, heh, thanks), but James Colnett does now, so does Ignacio de Arteaga y Bazán, Descubierta and Atrevida, Imperial Eagle, La Princesa, etc. Slow work. I've yet to have to dig into Spanish sources, which I couldn't read anyway. But for the Descubierta and Atrevida I might ask some Spanish WP editors to help--knowing that there is info in Spanish that I simply cannot find in English. Pfly (talk) 20:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh! Great! Another thing you might try would be to look into the Spanish language Wikipedia - if they have articles on these people already, then at Wikipedia:Translation and Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English you might find people who would be prepared to translate the salient details and leave you to turn it into pretty English, set up categories and info boxes, find illustrations and such. You could have a shot at some of the online translation services too. At the very least, a Spanish article might have references for you to follow. Another idea is to search other Wikipedia articles for information. Nathaniel Portlock is mentioned in half a dozen articles. If you go into those articles and put linking brackets around his name, so he shows up as a redlink - then sometimes that provokes people who "own" those articles to create at least a stub for the referenced name - but also you'll find references in those related documents that will probably lead you to more information about your subject. SteveBaker (talk) 20:29, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Yep, already there again. :-) I'm actually in the process of writing up a question for a couple Spanish Wikipedia editors who have worked on pages that mention info I would like to know more about. I'll have to try to keep the wording simple and use machine translation tools (eg, Google translate), and perhaps ask a few people for advice. Unfortunately the Spanish Wikipedia is often not well referenced--the pages with info I'm interested in have no sources listed. So I'll just ask the main editors of them. And yep, I redlink things a lot--but often on esoteric topics that probably few people read and fewer care to edit. If nothing else they remind me to someday make a page! Pfly (talk) 22:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Amazon 'shopping basket'

I sign in to Amazon, save a number of books to my "shopping basket", then sign out and delete all cookies. When I sign in again the next day, will the items still be in my shopping basket, or will they have disapeared? I am using Amazon.co.uk. Thanks 92.24.96.55 (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Amazon stores its "shopping cart" information on its server, not in your cookies. So yes, they will be there. (They might not be saved in your "Items to buy now" cart but your "items to buy later" cart, but if you click on the basket, you should be able to see them.) --Mr.98 (talk) 22:53, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Now I wonder when I'm going to get a receipt or invoice for my purchases? Havnt had one online nor emailed to me. 89.242.89.218 (talk) 16:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

(It's been a while since I bought from Amazon.) Putting something in your shopping basket is only the first step towards buying it. After you click Buy Now and supply your credit card details I think Amazon gives you an order reference number that you can use to check the progress of your order. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:39, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, correct, but that is not the same as an invoice or receipt. 78.146.171.125 (talk) 00:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Your "official" receipt is mailed inside the box of product. In addition, you will also get an email confirmation when your item ships. You can also view all the billing and shipping information (including subtotals, taxes, gift certificates applied and other stuff you'd expect to see on a receipt) on the website, under "Your Account". I've never purchased an item to be sent as a gift; I don't know how that works specifically as you'd likely not want a filled out receipt sent to your gift recipient. Matt Deres (talk) 13:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

February 19

Where is the offense?

Why is Sarah Palin so offended? The portrait of a Down person going to a date and saying - "“My dad’s an accountant, and my mom is the former governor of Alaska,” is not exactly disparaging or demeaning or whatever. I even think it was breaking some prejudices about Down's syndrome, depicting them as pretty normal people. --ProteanEd (talk) 15:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, when Sarah Palin was running for the VP candidacy, Trig was made a primary media story and Palin received a lot of scrutiny for it. I believe there was also a rumor going around that Trig was not Palin's child. I wouldn't exactly call her offended. Of course, she'd be frustrated; it's her child and the media was ARGUABLY being rather overzealous (as opposed to the Obama administration saying that the kids were "off-limits"). Naturally, it doesn't excuse any of her other political shortcomings.--WaltCip (talk) 16:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Not offended? Sarah Palin said the screenwriters were "cruel, cold-hearted people" and daughter Bristol said the writers were "heartless jerks." --ProteanEd (talk) 16:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Protean Ed is talking about a specific, recent reference in an episode of (I think) Family Guy. 86.182.38.255 (talk) 16:19, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's out of my league then, since I have neither the need nor desire to watch Family Guy. More of a Black Books fan myself.--WaltCip (talk) 16:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

let's see: Family Guy did something crass; Sarah Palin got offended... and yeah, the sun rose this morning. so what else is new? --Ludwigs2 17:03, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The interesting question is, did they actually do something crass? I haven't yet seen the episode, so I can't comment, but descriptions I've heard do not sound crass. They actually sound like a positive appearance of a character with Down's, something very rare on TV. Much like Joe is pretty much the only current, full-time character with a physical disability in a mainstream programme, and he is something other than an inspiration for others. Or like the Cleveland show is unusual in having a black family as the main family in a mainstream show. 86.182.38.255 (talk) 17:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Is this incident referring to the episode where Stewie cloned himself? Googlemeister (talk) 20:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

No. The episode in question is Extra Large Medium, which aired a little while ago. Our article details some of the brou-haha. Personally, I thought the Down Syndrome thing was no more viciously done than many of their other jokes, and probably lighter than most. The girl in question at first seems to be nice and happy (a stereotypical "Downy", I guess), but turns into a complete bitch after Chris gets to know her better. In a way, I think it's similar to their treatment of Joe (the wheelchair cop), which, while still no-holds barred, manages to provide the perspective that just because someone has a label doesn't mean they don't also have a personality of their own. In between the jabs and put-downs, you end up noticing that Ellen (the DS girl) is a person. Matt Deres (talk) 23:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC) added word so my post makes sense now...Matt Deres (talk) 03:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Though of course the entire point of Family Guy is to be crass. (And arguably the entire point of Sarah Palin is to be mock-offended whenever it gives her a chance to be in the daily news cycle.) --Mr.98 (talk) 16:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The actress who voiced Ellen has DS herself.http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/02/19/family-guys-down-syndrome-actress-responds-sarah-palin...hotclaws 23:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

what the different?

Hi Helpdesk,

I am puzzled by my daughter!

My time in school till now, I write one thousand this way (1000 or 1,000). As for ten thousands, it will be 10000 or 10,000

My daughter was taught to write one thousand this way (1 000 with a spacing after the 1). My girl write ten thousands like this (10 000).

Please enlighten me.

Cheers

Kelvin wong —Preceding unsigned comment added by Estelle-christelle-wong (talk • contribs) 17:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how old your daughter is, but I was told in school that a comma looks too much like a decimal point. As for the spacing, it's so that it's easier to tell how many zeroes there are after a number, making identification easier. Library Seraph (talk) 17:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Please see Thousands separator.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I am surprised that the article does not mention the underscore "_" which can be used as a thousands separator in some computer programming languages. It can be used in perl, "$population = 6_803_800_000", but I don't know how many languages share this. 58.147.58.28 (talk) 01:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Basically, in some countries a comma is used as a "decimal point". In some, a period is used as a thousand separator. To avoid confusion whether 1,956 is almost two thousand or is slightly less than two, a number of people now recommend using a space instead of printable punctuation to separate thousand groupings. -- 174.21.247.23 (talk) 17:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I've ever seen a space as a thousands separator in handwritten numbers. Feels like you'd need handwriting that's a good deal neater than mine to prevent it from just being confusing. APL (talk) 22:12, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I was taught the spacing method a quarter century (!) ago, in Ontario, Canada. Our teacher told us that spacing thousands was the "metric" way of doing it and using commas was an "American" thing (insert melodramatic organ music as we gasped in horror at our collective brush with treason). Matt Deres (talk) 03:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Did it sound a wee bit like [17]? Edison (talk) 04:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Ha, yes, close enough, but that's a very quick "dun dun dun"; the last note should hang for a bit to increase the emotion. Matt Deres (talk) 13:58, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Call your daughter's teacher and tell him/her to stop teaching ivory-tower bullcrap that will just have to be unlearned later in the real world. --Nricardo (talk) 04:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

When I worked in France, the client specified our system produce invoices with a comma character for the decimal separator (normal for much of Europe but not the UK) and a space character for the thousands separator (maybe specific to France). Does your daughter recieve her education in a different country from where you went to school? Astronaut (talk) 05:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

British school textbooks have used the space as a thousands separator for at least thirty years, but (older) teachers would never mark the comma as "wrong", we would just explain that it might be confusing to the French! Dbfirs 09:44, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't take much. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I used to work for an international insurance company; one of my colleagues mistook the three decimal places that go after sums in Egyptian pounds and inflated an already large claim figure by a factor of a thousand. It set a few alarm bells ringing. Alansplodge (talk) 00:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

same time shown by watches

pls tell me why does watches in adds show same time (ie 10:9:35 ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.99.19.74 (talk) 20:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This Snopes article talks about why the clocks always seem to be set to 10:10. 24.120.166.97 (talk) 20:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

We used to have an article, I think it was called "10:08" but in a dark day for Wikipedia, it was deleted. I don't know how to locate the AfD discussion, but I am pretty sure it's been linked here before. --LarryMac | Talk 20:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This is a definite inclusion for our FAQs. It comes up at least half a dozen times a year. Would the person responsible for compiling the FAQs please raise their hand? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:32, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The article was 10:08, there are links to it from previous refdesk discussions [18]. DuncanHill (talk) 21:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The AfD that resulted in the deletion is here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/10:08 Astronaut (talk) 04:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

breaking my own rules about RD contributions It's really too bad that the article was deleted. It was my introduction to Wikipedia - i.e. the first thing I ever read here. And as we can see, it is something the people want to know about, indeed it's a piece of the "knowledge disseminated around the globe". Perhaps it only "deserves" to be a part of the Watch article, but as hard as it may be to establish verifiability, the fact that timepieces in advertisements are set to (approximately) 10:10 is not a myth. I even recall seeing an ad for a digital, talking, Mickey Mouse alarm clock that showed a display of 10:10, but a speech balloon showing Mickey saying "It's 8:30, time to get up!" Maybe I'll make a project out of getting an article re-established. --LarryMac | Talk 16:55, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

In the case of a traditional clock with hour and minute hands, it should be obvious why they use 10:08 (or sometimes 8:18) - it looks nice. Setting it that way on a digital clock seems kind of funny, but it's probably better than having it flashing midnight. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I really think there would be value in such an article - but for it not to be immediately demolished by AfD requires two changes: Firstly, it must be really well referenced. The last comment in the AfD suggested some links (this, this, this, this, and this) - but none of them look really authoritative to me. Secondly, the title needs to be changed. The problem is that 10:08 could be almost anything - and also that 10:08 isn't the only time they use 01:52 is another one. I think that if you could 'sandbox' an article together with those two things fixed, it could survive an AfD - particularly given that it's such a FAQ here on the reference desk (demonstrating that people do indeed notice this "fact" and come and ask why it is). SteveBaker (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

It has now been userfied! User:LarryMac/10:08 Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Graeme! I find that two of the links in Steve's post are not even valid, so I'm sure they wouldn't look authoritative, and the second one is a blog that quotes the first one, so not much to work with there. I'll see what I can do. I welcome suggestions on my talk page for both content and title. --LarryMac | Talk 14:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that these were good references - I was merely passing on what little came out of the AfD discussions. SteveBaker (talk) 16:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Do the police make jokes when making arrests?

In a Donald Duck comic I just read, two policemen (Detective Casey and another detective whose English name I don't know) arrest a gang of money counterfeiters in their secret hideout. When they enter the hideout, Detective Casey says to the gang: "Hello, excuse me, but would you happen to know the penalty for having a sack full of counterfeit money?" The other detective continues: "When I last checked it this morning, it was three to six years of prison without parole." Now does this happen in real life? When the police arrest criminals, do they ever make jokes, or are they always strictly business and deliver the exact same lines ("You're under arrest. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you." or something), in the exact same words? JIP | Talk 21:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I once met a Welsh policeman who claimed that when he caught his first ever criminal, he used the words, "You're knicked son!". By the time it got to court, the phrase had become "I'm arresting you on suspicion of theft..." Alansplodge (talk) 22:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm having an eerie sense of deja-vu. Didn't you tell this exact same story about a half a year ago? :) Anyway, if we're exchanging anecdotes, there was a case some ten or so years ago here in Slovenia - two cops were chasing a petty thief (a grown man, mind you), he ran to his house, and the police decided to surround the house and wait for backup before going in. While they were waiting, the guy reappeared, dressed head to toe as a ninja and in all seriousness started throwing plastic shurikens at them. I think it'd take nerves of steel not to poke jokes at a guy like that while arresting him :) TomorrowTime (talk) 13:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Apologies if I repeated myself - obviously a sign of advancing years :-) Alansplodge (talk) 00:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I noticed the same thing but I believe it's less then half a year ago Nil Einne (talk) 22:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

They're human. As such, in the absence of compelling evidence, I expect them to behave like other humans. Thus, some will crack jokes. While police in the US need to provide a Miranda warning to anyone they plan to question, there's no prohibition whatsoever against saying other stuff, too. — Lomn 22:20, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, that is just not true; there are probably local prohibitions almost everywhere against humiliating people and robbing them of their dignity. This presumably would be punished by a slap on the wrist against the officer, or some other discipline, rather than letting an arrested person go free, of course. 63.164.47.229 (talk) 22:44, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Laws against robbing people of their dignity? I understand that most jurisdictions have laws about not committing crimes... ╟─TreasuryTag►duumvirate─╢ 21:37, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I doubt there are many laws against making jokes during an arrest, but I expect almost all police forces expect their officers to behave in a professional manner. How much that expectation is enforced will undoubtedly vary from force to force. --Tango (talk) 22:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I have friends who have seen police make jokes during arrests or "visits", so I would say yes. ~AH1^(TCU) 00:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

In general, my very few encounters with police have found them to very courteous and professional. Regardless, if I were ever arrested, I'd rather they made fun of me than to beat me to the ground with their batons. As far as a slap on the wrist is concerned, in court you've got the perp grousing to the judge that the cops made fun of him. How likely is the judge to put much credence on such a claim? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd rather they do neither (see false choice), and although it may not be a very compelling defense, but it's not completely impossible. The whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing means you cannot completely ignore what the defendant says (and you certainly can't discount it solely on the basis of him being charged with a crime). While it doesn't materially affect the facts of the case, a particularly convincing defense attorney may be able to argue that the irreverent nature of the police at the time of the arrest is indicative of them not being serious in other, more substantive, matters regarding the case, or that their willingness to crack jokes at the defendant's expense is indicative of them not being serious about protecting the rights of the accused in other manners. (Basically, if you are unprofessional during the arrest, where *else* have you been unprofessional.) It's a long shot, and may only work one time out of ten thousand, but that 1/10,000 chance means that there really isn't any reason to risk it, and so the police force may have official rules to discourage it. -- 174.21.247.23 (talk) 18:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

There are other obvious risks. For example if the defendent confenses or tells stuff to the police they may later say they were just joiking, in the same spirit that the police were. Suffice to say, there are reasons why the police should generally be resonably professional in the way they deal with people. Nil Einne (talk) 22:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I remember seeing a cop show where a guy was caught after stealing a car, anyway he started scolding the cops saying "why aren't you out catching murderers" etc, the cops all started laughing and being sarcastic with him ("yeah we shouldn't have wasted out time", "what's a murderer?" etc).--92.251.162.146 (talk) 21:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

There are lots of TV shows these days that follow police (and similar officers like immigration, customs, tax, etc) around - in the UK there are many shows on Sky and ITV like Road Wars, UK Border Force, Night Cops, and there are US version - and many of them show police officers making sarcastic or mocking comments to people they suspect of crimes or anti-social behaviour. Sometimes it's just banter, other times it's nastier. It may against police regulations (particularly if it could be seen as racist or discriminatory), but the victims are unlikely to complain, particularly if they were doing something wrong, and even if they do complain there's almost no chance of the officer being seriously punished. --Normansmithy (talk) 11:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Police are normal people. Some will crack jokes; some will be serious; different thinsg will amuse different cops. They're not forbidden to enjoy themselves, and a bit of banter makes any job more interesting. Not all cops will stay entirely professional at all times; and not all cops will have the same views on what is appropriate humour. As Normansmithy notes, there are many examples on reality shows. If you like deadpan humour, then this example is hard to beat: [19]. The establishment didn't seem to find it inappropriate. Gwinva (talk) 22:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

February 20

Bateman's principle, the sex revolution and contraception/abortion

Does the fact that a girl knows that as a result of contraception and abortion being freely available mean that Bateman's principle does not really apply so much in humans and that she can have sex with as many guys as she likes and enjoy it?--I want to feel like a girl (talk) 13:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I think for these arguments sex with contraception or sex with an intention to abort any pregnancies doesn't count as sex. Bateman's principle clearly only applies to sex that can result in a child. The existence of contraception does, therefore, mean that women can enjoy sex without the usual arguments applying. --Tango (talk) 13:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but the idea needs to be applied carefully. Essentially worry-free sex is a relatively new phenomenon while Bateman's Principle refers to the past billion years or so of females "getting stuck" with the pregnancy and child rearing. While women can be consciously aware of their new options and enjoy them, there is likely a lot of "built in" hesitance. It's a little like the fact that we no longer need to consume fats, sugars, and salt as often as possible; our conscious knowledge of that tends to be overwhelmed by a deep-seated need to ahead and dig in. The enjoyment of the physical sensation obviously works differently in both cases, though. Matt Deres (talk) 14:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

In addition, most women are (and if not should be) aware that (i) the various methods of contraception are variously less than 100% effective; and (ii) even where legally available, abortion in some circumstances may be less than easy to obtain, may carry a non-negligable degree of risk to their health, may cause conflict with relatives and other community members, and can be an emotionally painful experience. Such awareness will probably affect their attitudes. [Disclaimer: I'm not trying to assert any moral/ethical position on these matters.] 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:53, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

"The pill" is pretty near 100 percent effective if they stick to the schedule. Skipping it for a day or two may fool oneself, but it won't fool mother nature. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

"The pill" may well be the most effective form of contraception available, but a woman's physiology may mean that she will get pregnant whether or not she takes the pill according to schedule. Similarly, STDs should mean that women take heed and use barrier methods of contraception regardless of whether they use the Pill or not. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Obviously, "the pill" won't prevent disease, so a condom and foam should be used anyway, if there's a risk. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Foam? --Tango (talk) 00:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Contraceptive foam. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Picture question

How do I insert a picture into my question, as I would like to ask a question concerning it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 14:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

If the image is on the wiki-commons a syntax something like [[image:FILENAME|50px]] or [[file:FILENAME.jpg|20px]] will display it. The "50px" determines it's size, you may need to experiment to get it right. Use the "Show preview" button to see how it appears.
Example Otherwise if it is on Flikr or a similar photo sharing website then a URL/ web address or link is all that is needed. (Updated my post)220.101.28.25 (talk) 14:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

how about if I received it in an email and want to put it here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 14:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You will need to upload it to a photosharing site and link to it here. Alternately, you might try going to Tineye, comparing your file there and seeing if your picture is already out there on the web somewhere. Obviously that's not likely if someone's sent you his holiday snaps, but it might work if it's some joke picture or something that's been emailed around a lot. Matt Deres (talk) 15:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

THANKS!!! see next Q —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 15:32, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Giants amd mermaids

Please can some one provide me with any information concerning these pictures

1. http://www.snopes.com/photos/tsunami/mermaid.asp
   
2. http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/Discussions/Loisirs/etonnantes-mairde-reposts-sujet_54384_2765.htm
   
3. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/photogalleries/giantskeleton-pictures/index.html
   
4. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/photogalleries/giantskeleton-pictures/images/primary/1_461.jpg
   
5. http://www.worth1000.com/entries/10000/10494_w.jpg
   
6. http://img.qihoo.com/qhimg/bbs_img/0_0/0/890/927/b02d2a.jpg
   

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 15:34, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I put some line breaks in to make it easier to read --220.101.28.25 (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

An numbers, sorry if this offends anyone, I think it was necessary. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 15:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, what do you want to know? The Snopes picture gives you all kinds of information on it. Worth1000 is a photoshopping site that fakes pictures for fun. The picture of the giant skeleton is from that Worth1000 site. Your second link has dozens of pictures on it. Could you perhaps trim down this list into something remotely reasonable, do just a wee bit of research on your own, and then let us know what exactly it is you'd like help with? Matt Deres (talk) 15:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps see Cardiff Giant and Piltdown man for background on this sort of joke. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 16:22, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

We also have an article on the Fiji mermaid. Deor (talk) 18:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much all of the pictures you are referring to are fakes. Using software tools such as Photoshop or The GIMP (which you can download for free) and with a certain amount of artistic and technical skill, it is possible to produce any picture of anything your mind can imagine. The process generally involves blending together parts of different pictures, adjusting lighting and tweaking the 'grain' of the image - and the results can often be impossible to distinguish from reality. So before you believe that a mermaid was found washed up during the tsunami - consider the source of the photo. Was this taken by a photojournalist with a reputation for producing reliable and truthful images - or did it just pop up on the Internet, seemingly from nowhere? If the latter - then it's vastly more likely to be a fake than not. SteveBaker (talk) 18:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The Cottingley fairies pictures predate computer manipulation but probably would meet with less success today. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 21:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Yeah - it's incredible how people fell for that. They didn't even do a double-exposure to make them translucent or anything - just cut-out paper drawings stuck into the foreground of the scene. The idea that a photograph could be anything other than the complete truth is a concept that's having a hard time dying! SteveBaker (talk) 04:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

People who want to believe in something will look for any apparent evidence supporting it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of news reports linking undiscovered giant creatures to the 2004 tsunami. For example, [20]. ~AH1^(TCU) 19:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Right turn on red

This question concerns the concept of Right turn on red (in the United States). The general idea is this: if it is safe to do so, the driver may turn right on red (after he comes to a complete stop and if no other sign prohibits the turn). Now, sometimes, a sign will specifically be posted that says "No Right Turn on Red" (or similar). My question is why? What is the purpose of specifically preventing and/or prohibiting right on red turns at certain intersections? Especially since the driver is (otherwise) allowed to turn only when it is safe for him to do so. Any insights? Thanks. (64.252.68.102 (talk) 16:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC))

From this blog - "As stated, the primary reasons for restricting a right turn are driver and pedestrian safety. There may be roadway or vision obstructions that are not readily apparent to drivers or there may be a need for a protected pedestrian phase." Granted, a blog is not typically a reliable source, this one appears to be written by a police department representative. --LarryMac | Talk 16:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Just anecdotal evidence here : You often see it at 'complicated' intersections (ie: anything other than a normal four-way stop) where it might not be immediately obvious which way a car is coming. (Or when.)APL (talk) 16:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's for safety, for example if it's hard to see the oncoming traffic (a "blind corner"). In that case, the department in charge of that kind of thing has decided that there are no conditions under which a right on red is sufficiently "safe" to allow it, even if the driver might think otherwise. Likewise with the "left turn on red" which can arise when one-way streets intersect. In some ways it's like the "No U Turn" signs. Typically U Turns are OK if done safely, but sometimes they are explicitly forbidden due to conditions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:34, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Not so in all jurisdiction. In British Columbia for example, U-turns are forbidden unless specifically marked at all controlled intersections (traffic lights, etc.) You can only do them legally in uncontrolled intersections.24.83.112.118 (talk) 20:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

OR here, but I've also seen this occasionally ("rarely" is probably a better term) to prevent cars from turning right onto a particularly crowded or busy road. Presumably it's rare because the right-on-red rules don't obstruct traffic much on the busy road. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

In Southern California, the no turn on red tends to be for one of two reasons. Either the perpendicular traffic flow is unusually fast and/or partially obstructed from view from the person turning right. Thus its difficult to determine whether it is safe to turn. Secondly, no turn on red signs are often found around schools, presumably to better safeguard children as they cross the road. These often have time limits on them, though, so no turns are permitted only during the week and around school hours. Rockpocket 20:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Rant Insight follows. The rule is stupid. If the intersection is difficult then having an extra sign with English text that drivers have to read and understand in real time which takes time, especially if English is not your natural reading language, just adds to the hazard. This does not happen in Europe where road signs are icons independant of language. How would you like your PC desktop icons taken away and replaced by wordy text? (Picture of an ape shaking head goes here.) Furthermore the idea that a driver must come to a complete stop before doing the turn is unreal. If you do that in heavy traffic the driver behind you, who knows the area and probably thinks this is a communist plot, honks angrily. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Here in Ontario, and presumably some or all other Canadian provinces, "no right on red" is now in fact a pictographic sign. It consists of an icon of a red traffic light, and beside it a standard "no right turn" icon, all on a white background. I have an opinion about this, but this forum is not the place for opinions. --Anonymous, 05:45 UTC, February 21, 2010.

Sorry that you live in such a rude area. I have been behind people who sat through entire green lights and no one has honked at them. But the sign in question has four words and is read while your car is stopped at a red light. That isn't a major burden I don't think. But how do you make an image of a conditional like this? 75.41.110.200 (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

(Interpolated answer to the above) You don't have to. The menu of traffic lights in the UK includes double-arrow (up and right) green lights that give one a go signal for 2 directions only. It gives no instruction about left turns which can, if desired, be controlled by separate arrow lights. What I call stupid is signals that have to be interpreted conditionally. Consider what happens in these cases if a light bulb fails or a sign is obscured. I can imagine a queue of Canadians drivers stopping to admire or puzzle over the pictograph that Anonymous reports in Ontario. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 01:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Since the light is red, you're supposed to come to a complete stop whether you're turning or not, so the horn by the trailing driver is rude and unwarranted. The wordless sign is an arrow with a 90-degree bend in it and a red circle-slash superimposed. Just as the no-U-turn is an inverted U with that red circle-slash superimposed. That's how it is in the USA, anyway. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, that means no right turn ever. --Nricardo (talk) 03:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Oops, you're right. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Here in Texas, they say "NO RIGHT ON RED" - no arrows or anything. Sadly, they put them in places where car headlights can't shine on them and where you'd have to stick your head out of the window to read them while actually stopped at the light. So it's easy to mess up. SteveBaker (talk) 04:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, the need for reading all the words isn't always there; many signs have certain shapes and color schemes which are supposed to be universal; of course, I'm not sure if this sign is one, since I haveen't the vision to drive, so I've never seen one (unlike the more common "stop," "railaroad, etc., which you often see just in pictures)209.244.187.155 (talk) 23:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, when someone honks at me for coming to a complete stop at a red light, I tend to stay put for the duration of the red light and then a few seconds into the green for good measure. That's just the kind of friendly guy I am. APL (talk) 04:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Just want to make sure you understand: You have a red light, so you would normally be stopped anyway. The first sign pictured in the Right turn on red article is unusual and wordy: The article text and image caption explain that in New York City, turning right at a red light is prohibited by default, unless a sign allows it. In most places I'm familiar with, a right turn at a red light is allowed by default (after a complete stop, and when safe to turn), unless a sign prohibits it. Preform a Google Image search for no turn on red to see what these signs look like. --70.254.86.111 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC).

As a point of fact, the cities of Montreal (and maybe some suburbs) and New York (city only, 5 boroughs) are now the only places the US and Canada where right-on-red is prohibited except where specifically authorized. --Anonymous, 05:45 UTC, February 21, 2010.

Can you source that please --Anon? Webmasters two years ago in Ottawa were still warning about crossing the bridge.[21][22] You're making a pretty broad claim here and I might expensively drive my car through it some day if I believe in you now. :) Franamax (talk) 07:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's a page from the Quebec transportation ministry on right turns on red: [23]. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 15:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Another place where right-on-red may be prohibited (other than getting in the way off cross-traffic from cars) is where any cross-traffic might be impeded or endangered. For example if a designated bicycle lane crosses in front of you, you need to be stopped 'til you get the right of way because you will be watching for cars when you pull out to turn and will miss the cyclist until they hit your driver door. Franamax (talk) 07:14, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I've always heard too that right turns on red aren't allowed in Manhattan, but I've never driven myself on that island so I have no personal experience. I don't think what a cabbie does is a good reference to what the traffic laws actually are. Shadowjams (talk) 07:49, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

As an ex-cabbie, I take exception to that remark. :) Cabbies are more likely to be aware of the road rules than almost anyone else, because they're more likely to be pulled over for some perceived breach than almost anyone else. True, there's a difference between knowing what the law is and knowing what you can get away with, but still .... -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Another reason to prohibit a right turn on red is when the opposing traffic has a green arrow allowing them to turn left. A driver wanting to turn right on red generally checks for traffic coming from their left before proceeding with their turn. They do not normally expect opposing traffic to turn left in front of them. --Thomprod (talk) 02:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a comment, here. I'm usually grateful when I come upon a No Turn On Red sign. Sometimes they don't have them when there really should be one, and it's a little frustrating if you don't feel comfortable turning (for various reasons) but the person behind you thinks they can make your mind up for you by honking. Sadly, I live in a honking city (LA). – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 04:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Question on book sales

How many copies of Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe have been sold? What is the criteria for a book to be called a "best seller"? Thanks. JPatterson (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

"Best seller" is meaningless Puffery. It could mean the best book with a blue cover and a title beginning in "D". Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:03, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

With respect "What are the criteria?" or "What is the criterion?" I would suggest that something like the the top 100 selling books at any one time could be regarded as best sellers. But there are multiple categories - fiction hard-back, fiction paper-back, non-fiction hardback, non-fiction paperback. I spite of that there are several lists produced by UK broadsheet newspaper literary supplements which record the current sales of book numbers which include the top 20 or 50 best sellers in these 4 categories. How 'best seller' can be meaningless within these wider descriptions is difficult to see. "Darwin's Black Box"? - No idea. It's been around for a few years and probably nowadays sells in lower numbers after its initial launch. This[24]site claims it is ranked 2,323 in overall sales from Amazon. I reckon that is a pretty high number. Richard Avery (talk) 23:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Though logical, this definition is undermined by the many books which are described by their publishers, often on their own covers, as "bestsellers" on or before their day of publication. Speaking as a former professional bookseller, it was and probably still is a commonplace in the book trade that any book can become a bestseller if the publisher decides to pay enough for an advertising campaign to make it one, and "bestseller" is almost regarded as a genre in itself. Since a significant proportion of the book-buying public decide to buy a book because it is described as a bestseller, calling it one is an important factor in subsequently making it one in sales terms. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 00:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

How does a claim of being a bestseller even before the book has been published survive scrutiny by the anti-misleading advertising authorities? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Probably because, as stated, the term doesn't mean anything. Dismas|^(talk) 03:58, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm - sadly the so-called "ideacenter" site seem to have slipped a decimal point in reading the Amazon sales rank. They claim 2,323 - but Amazon say 23,812. Well, anyone can make a mistake - right? Oh - wait...two mistakes. They overstated the sales rank of "Of Pandas and People" by a factor of ten too. Draw your own conclusions about the reliability of that web site - you can probably guess my opinion. SteveBaker (talk) 04:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

No, you miss my point, Dismas. They call it a best-seller, in the hope of people thinking "Ooh, it's very popular, so I'd better get a copy and see what all the fuss is about". But they give it this "best-seller" label before a single copy has been sold, and, by definition, before they know whether it will actually sell very well or not. It's a blatant attempt to mislead people. If it were not intended to influence people, what would be the point of using this strategy? If it were not the case that a lot of people fall for this misleading ploy, why would they continue doing it? That's why I ask where the authorities are when you really need them. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

According to [25] a sales rank of around 20k means that the book is selling a couple of dozen copies a week. The highest selling books on Amazon sell around 70,000 copies a week. No, this book is currently anything but a "best seller". However, it may have shifted a bunch of copies when it was first published - that kind of historical data is hard to get. SteveBaker (talk) 04:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a citeable reference, but what I've read is that bestseller lists are based on how many copies of the books are sold to bookstores. So it is indeed possible for a book to achieve bestseller status before publication. It is meaningless as a measure of the book's quality, just as "opening weekend gross" figures for movies are no measure of the movie's quality.

--Anonymous, 05:50 UTC, February 21, 2010.

The term bestseller by itself, as others have noted, isn't particularly meaningful. Often, however, there will be reference to a specific bestseller list; by far the best-known and most influential in North American markets is probably The New York Times Best Seller list. A New York Times Best Seller will have been in the top 15 best-selling hardcover nonfiction books (or top 20 paperbacks) for at least one week, sometime between the date of publication and the present day. I can't find easy, free access to historical NYT list data, so I can't check this case. Note that the Times doesn't actually track the total number of retail sales of a book — their numbers are based on a sampling of brick & mortar booksellers and wholesalers, with their exact algorithm shrouded in secrecy. There have been reported cases of manipulation of the Times list, even then. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:25, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

To being an answer to the actual question, this article (written in 2000) says it has sold "more than 100000 copies since 1996"). Behe's main period of fame was after 2000, so it probably sold at a higher rate just after that, and then dropped off in recent years. DJ Clayworth (talk) 03:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Ballista

Where online can I find how to build a ballista? --75.25.103.192 (talk) 23:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Curiously if you put 'How to build a Ballista' into Google you will get 87,500 hits [26]. That would have taken less time than posting the question. Be careful where you point it, you might have someone's eye out. Richard Avery (talk) 23:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, is there anything functionally equivalent to a torsion spring which doesn't use metal? --75.25.103.192 (talk) 23:28, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Offhand, I recall that some ballistae and similar mechanisms used twisted ropes: that is, two or more taut parallel cords or ropes had a lever inserted perpendicularly between them which was then rotated around to twist the ropes together; designs of ballistae you will likely find will doubtless include details. Others designs utilised counterweights and levers, and might be simpler to construct. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Never mind, I saw the picture of the mousetrap at torsion spring and assumed that all torsion springs were metallic, or that metal was somehow necessary. --75.25.103.192 (talk) 00:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Modern makers of siege engines (like for punkin chunkin competitions) sometimes use bungee cord or surgical tubing (which is fantastically elastic) as an alternative to rope. Same principle - modern materials. SteveBaker (talk) 03:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

We made one with just pioneering poles and rope. Worked rather well. DuncanHill (talk) 03:49, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Note that when you are putting things under high levels of tension, there are more dangers than just popping it off in the wrong direction. If the structure itself is not strong enough to support the tension, you can get bad and potentially dangerous results. Just be careful if you are going to mix and match materials... --Mr.98 (talk) 16:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely; if you're building a full-size ballista, there's a lot of energy in there, and if it goes in the wrong direction... FiggyBee (talk) 06:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's a site partly in German with some English in their guestbook. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 01:13, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

February 21

Double Snap "Clap"

What is it called when you double snap your fingers (snap once with the fingers in each hand in succession), then "clap" an open fist into the palm of the hand? I always do this and I'd love to know if it ever had a name. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 01:12, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Like this? (video) Cuddlyable3 (talk) 01:02, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

No... it's hard to explain. Snap your left fingers once, then snap your right fingers once, then, with your right hand balled into a fist (after snapping), slap the right hand fist into the left hand's open palm. Do this is rapid succession. snapsnap-pop, at a rate much higher than Queen's boom-boom-clap. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 01:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

If I'm correctly reading what the OP is saying: It's not that you're just putting your fist into your palm. The balled up fist (which is actually open just a bit, more of a finger curl than a tight fist) is hit against the palm so that the index finger and thumb are what is hitting the palm. The hollow of the curled fingers makes a sort of hollow pop noise when it's hit against the palm. And to answer the question, I don't know what it's called but I think I remember the Three Stooges doing it. That's the only pop culture reference that I can think of where this is performed. Dismas|^(talk) 04:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Interesting, you're not the first one to mention the Three Stooges, but seeing it mentioned here (wiser people), I'm going to have to look into that further. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 11:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

English Names

Military

Old

What are the english words (CA/US/UK/AU) for these frames/mounts/cradles carried on the tail to strip on bigger things, with no basket or container?

• Pictures outside of WP:
  • (2 pic-changing-gif) Model-Airplane
  • Work in the woods
• Are these words also for these Baby-XY? 1, 2, 3, 4, Many
• And are the words also for these for cable/cord-frames? (Mostly in military, Field telephone) 1, 2, 3.1, 3.2

--Franz (Fg68at) de:Talk 08:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Carried on the tail of what? Are they holsters? --TammyMoet (talk) 10:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia (not a reliable source) calls this a back frame but that's not in the OED. No doubt there are local terms, such as the reff mentioned on that page. The search continues.....--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:28, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Line break added --antilived^{T | C | G} 11:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I would call them carrying frames. 78.146.74.227 (talk) 12:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I would call them pack frames, as does my old Scout Handbook, fifth edition, published by the Scout Association in 1980. DuncanHill (talk) 19:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I called them "pack frames" back in the 60s, and I could find a reference if I could find one of my old Colin Fletcher books. I would call the German gadget in the first reference a "model-airplane carrier". PhGustaf (talk) 19:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia (a favourite source) refers to backpack, knapsack, rucksack Haversack, pack frame, back frame, and bodypack. I like back rack. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, carried by a backpacker, I would call it a pack frame. Pulled by a person, I would call it something else... a sled lol. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 01:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Effectiveness of a Bomb Suit

After watching The Hurt Locker, I started wondering about the effectiveness of the bomb suits worn by EOD technicians in the US military. How effective are they at protecting the wearer against blasts? Are they bullet proof too? Can they, for example, protect the wearer against a claymore mine from 5 m away? Acceptable (talk) 09:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

They are highly effective against most effects of an explosion. They will protect the wearer from a large amount of heat, overpressure and fragments, and obviously their reistance to fragments includes bullets. Modern bomb suits will also protect the wearer from any chemical or biolical effects of bombs. However they have limits. I'm sure pretty much any cartridge above the standard full-power rifle cartridges would penetrate them (.50 BMG, .55 Kynoch, 14.5 mm etc would tear them to shreds). I'm sure some large, very high velocity fragments might well penetrate as well, along with shaped charges. Certainly you would still need to ttry to take cover--92.251.162.146 (talk) 22:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Bullets

Are these two pictures at all accurate?

http://images3.hiboox.com/images/0208/calykgl5.jpg

http://images3.hiboox.com/images/0208/q9djm2cp.jpg

And is the second one a blank? Vimescarrot (talk) 11:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

They look reasonably accurate to me. The first is a 9mm parabellum pistol round (with soft point, FMJ and hollowpoint bullets), and the second is a 12 gauge shotgun slug of some description. FiggyBee (talk) 12:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The web address of the manufacturer is on the picture: Sellier & Bellot. There is info in there (in English) about all the different types of ammunition they sell. --KageTora - (影虎) (A word...?) 15:38, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The pictures are too perfect to be real. They are computer rendered images for advertising and not simple photographs. The artist made the bullets resemble shiny phallic Lipsticks of an unlikely colour. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Despite being computer graphics, though, they are quite accurate in the proportions and general look of the real thing. So basically imagine those with less shiny, and you'll know what a real bullet/slug looks like. 24.247.163.175 (talk) 02:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes...The fading, ghostly sections of the bullet made me realise they weren't real. ;) Comparing to the picture found on our article, a shotgun slug is supposed to have more to it than that one Sellier & Bellot are showing... Vimescarrot (talk) 08:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The one in the photo is a solid slug with traditionally-constructed wadding, while the Sellier & Bellot one is hollow with a plastic (or "polymer", as the firearms industry likes to call it) wad/sabot. (edit: this one [27]) FiggyBee (talk) 10:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Snoring dogs

animals:Is it normal for a dog to snore like a human? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.46.140 (talk) 12:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

It's possible. My Great Pyrenees snores occasionally If you're concerned about it, you should see a vet. Dismas|^(talk) 14:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if they make a C-PAP for animals? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Many dogs snore, especially the larger breeds. Probably other animals too. Perhaps this should be mentioned in our article on snoring (lest it be considered speciesist).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Even now the OAC is consulting with their attorney. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:28, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

"OAC" can mean about 14 different things, only some unlikely. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Organization of American Cats. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I was most disappointed by their website.It was not quite what I was expecting when I received a link to a site with lots of cute young pussies on. *gets coat,leaves rampaging mob chasing him out of RefDesk Lemon martini (talk) 09:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Both my cats snore. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

satphones

What is the net worth of the satellite phone market in India, approximately? What does the sales come up to including government and civilian subscribers? Who are the current providers of network and handsets and what is the future of the demand? What are the new technologies in that field that will make the product more user friendly and popular? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.183.13.91 (talk) 15:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

When is your homework due? —Tamfang (talk) 17:39, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The same unsigned IP posted the same questions on 19:46, 14 February 2010. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Mouse breeding

I and my friend Sammy are trying to breed mice to sell but, we don't know if our mice are pregnant or not. So far it's the day after we think they mated. not much is different with the female. Then comes the question: How long does it take for them to mate? We think it doesn't take long. So we thought they mated for about a minute or two but, we aren't sure. So we want to know how you can tell if mice are pregnant and, how long it take for them to mate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skittywolf (talk • contribs) 15:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

It only takes them a few seconds (as with most animals). .--Shantavira|^{feed me}

And yet their women never complain Lemon martini (talk) 09:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Don't worry; if you're sure you've got a male and female you'll soon have lots of baby mice.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Unless you happen to have a couple of fruity little mice... Lemon martini (talk) 09:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if mice feel any heartache if you split up couples or families? 89.243.197.22 (talk) 17:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Considering that the mothers eat the babies if they get stressed out, probably not. Species that reproduce frequently and in large litters generally invest less in the individual young. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Experienced laboratory technicians who work with mice can tell exactly which of the female mice have been mated with.Medical geneticist (talk)

It's the knowing wink in their eye that says I remember you big boy Lemon martini (talk) 09:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Here are a few references to get you going: Mouse#Reproduction and Mating_plug. Incidentally, you may want to familiarize yourself with the local regulations on commercial rodent breeding. --- Medical geneticist (talk) 17:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

(Medical geneticist, I removed a space from the beginning of your entry since the resulting formatting was messing up the page layout. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 11:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC))

Are you sure you can make money selling these baby mice? When I was a kid, my sister and I were given pet mice - my parents thought they would avoid the problem of vast numbers of baby mice by carefully getting us two females. Sadly, both were (evidently) pregnant when they bought them from the pet store - so we soon had TWO litters of teeny-tiny mice to deal with. As soon as they were weaned, we tried to sell them to the pet store - but they wouldn't take them - not even for $0.00 because (they said) they couldn't be sure that they'd be disease-free and all of that stuff. In the end, we had to find homes for all of them with friends and such like. So be 100% sure you have someplace that'll buy these mice before you do this! Remember, if a pet store needs baby mice to sell, they have a REALLY cheap way to make them! SteveBaker (talk) 18:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the original posters are grimmer than it appears, and they merely have friends who own carnivorous reptiles of various sorts. Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

In which case, they definitely need to check the local legal situation. --Tango (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the only way to make significant money breeding mice is if you have mice with particularly desirable (and rare) characteristics. --Tango (talk) 01:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

hierarchy in catholicism

do we not have a link? alterboy, priest, bishop, cardinal, pope, any missing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 16:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

See our Catholic Church hierarchy article. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

'alterboy' Hmm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.186.107 (talk) 07:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Alter boys are pretty much the bus boys of the Catholic church. They don't fit into the hierarchy at all. They have no powers and are simply there to carry things around. Dismas|^(talk) 11:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you'll find it's spelt "altarboy". --TammyMoet (talk) 12:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

no, he means the other one... FiggyBee (talk) 12:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Gravy powder - can you get it salt free?

Gravy powder that I've bought here in the UK has lots of salt in it. Is it possible to buy a low-salt or salt-free vegetarian version please? Vegetarian gravy powder is easy to buy in supermarkets such as Sainsbury's, even though its not promoted as being vegetarian.

I'd also be interested in finding out how to make it myself, since it would be just cornflour and some other ingredient. 89.243.197.22 (talk) 17:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Tesco's do one for meat-eaters, but I don't know about a veggie one. Making gravy is easier if you eat meat, as you stir cornflour into the fat left from roasting a joint or bird, add the stock from cooking the vegetables and cook for a minute. I suppose vegetarian gravy is basically a white sauce made with vegetable stock. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I would presume you could use a conventional vegetarian gravy recipe: [28],[29] or [30] for example (Our Gravy article offers some other suggestions) - and then maybe you could very gently dry it to make a powder that you could reconstitute. I suspect that real gravy granules are made by freeze-drying or vacuum dried or something fancy and industrial like that which would be hard to replicate at home. But if you're going to make the stuff yourself, why not just make a larger batch and freeze it in an ice-cube tray to make a bunch of handy "gravy-cubes" that you could keep in the freezer and zap with a microwave when you need them? That would keep the flavor and vitamins and stuff much better than drying it out and reconstituting it - and with a reduced salt load, it should freeze pretty good. I guess though, looking at those three vegetarian recipes I linked to, all three use large amounts of soy sauce - which is pretty salty stuff already. But you could at least avoid adding more. SteveBaker (talk) 18:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

According to[31], there's a low-salt version of their Bisto brand. This is consistent with most US products. We also have decent low-salt stocks and broths, including vegetarion ones, in boxes, which taste much better than powders. Try some if they have them over there. You also might try a health-food store, or one specializing in specialized dietary needs. Warning: the Bisto site is horribly flashturbated. PhGustaf (talk) 03:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The low salt version is still the equivalent of around 10% salt unfortunately. Surprised to see that they do not have any meat-products in them. They use E150c, caramel, for colouring. 84.13.16.216 (talk) 12:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Name a well paid and routine job

By well paid I mean €35,000-€50,000

By routine I mean fairly stable working hours, eg 9-5, no getting up in the middle of the night

and explain how a someone leaving secondary school could get into that profession. Thanks!--92.251.162.146 (talk) 21:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Please refrain from telling us what to do. There are more courteous ways of asking questions than your method. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 21:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think they were that rude... they said thanks... ╟─TreasuryTag►secretariat─╢ 22:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about rude, but while the OP did provide some basic clarifications to their question, there are still many missing details. For example the IP provided no details on where they live but the IP looks up to the UK and they're quoting Euro figures. Does this mean they willing to work anywhere in the EU? Even so while the EU has some degree of a single market for labour, I believe it's far from complete so the OP's citizenship and residency may come in to it, and the OP provided no details on whether they have any language skills besides English (even with a common market, getting a job when you can't speak the local language is difficult).

Also 'leaving secondary school' is very broad. I think it's clear someone leaving with no A or AS level qualifications and perhaps even no O level qualifications (if that's possible) because they failed everything has quite different options from someone leaving with 6 A* A levels.

And on a related note, even if the OP doesn't care at all about enjoyment of their job, the areas their skilled in will likely come in to it, for example it's no use telling the OP you can get a stable well paid job as a mathematician (completely made up example) if they hate maths and barely passed their O-level maths.

Similarly telling the OP, if you get into MIT and come out with a degree and GPA of 4.0 you should be able to get a job that meets your requirements if the OP has little chance of getting into MIT even if they had rich well connected parents and in fact his/her parent's can't afford to financial support him/her anymore.

Given the complexities here, I don't think it's surprising careers advice is the sort of thing usual delt with in a conversational manner but if the OP really wants help here, IMHO we'd need far more info.

Nil Einne (talk) 22:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Nil Einne do you mean "they ARE willing", "the areas THEY'RE skilled in" and "thing USUALLY DEALT with"? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 00:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Cuddlyable3, please stop the grammar nagging. It is a net negative for the Reference Desk. It doesn't help answer the original posters' questions, which is why we are here. If you find the nagging irresistible, please nag on the posters' Talk pages so it doesn't lard up the Refdesk. Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

"If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." is stated on every Edit page. Nil Einne may choose to correct their own errors or ignore them. The former course seems the more respectful to the OP and all. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 01:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

"Nil Einne may choose to correct HIS OR HER own" 71.161.59.15 (talk) 02:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

@71.161.59.15 the Wikipedia article Singular they may reassure you if you worry that "THEIR" cannot serve in place of the 3 words that you post in capitals. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 03:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Complaining about grammar errors here is counterproductive. It has no place on here, particularly when you nagged that person the other day whose first language was obviously not English. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

It would also be useful to know if that salary expectation is supposed to be starting salary or eventual salary. If it is starting salary, then there are only a few jobs in that range, mostly in finance (investment banker, actuary, etc.) and they usually involve long hours (at least occasionally). --Tango (talk) 01:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Be a doctor and open your own practice and set your hours to 9-5. Of course the training and residency parts won't satisfy your hours requirements.71.161.59.15 (talk) 01:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

In the United States, master plumbers make pay within your range without attending university. Someone would have to confirm that plumbers' pay in the EU is similar. To become a plumber in the United States, you need to arrange an apprenticeship, typically through the plumbers' labor union. You need several years practice after completing an apprenticeship to become a master plumber. In the United States there is hardly any routine job (by your definition) that pays more than €25,000 or so right out of secondary school. Marco polo (talk) 02:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You could try going into IT. If you're into computer games, why not try writing them? Where I live (Warwickshire, UK) the computer games industry is the largest private employer now we've lost the car industry. The pay is worthwhile and life is generally fun. I can't vouch for the hours, though, but you may find that they become less important as your experience changes. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)How to get into it? At a guess you need programming knowledge, and knowledge of gaming and playing games would help. At 16 you might get a job making the tea there! You'd be better off approaching one of the companies involved and enquiring with them. Can't see you having many opportunities without a computer science degree, or BTEC at least. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

It would help narrow things down if you said if you prefer a sitting-down job in a warm office (can be unbearably boring I can tell you) or a physically active often outdoors one (cold in winter, less prestige, usually much longer hours). For a sitting down job then try accountancy, or failing that bookkeeping. For an active job being a gas fitter may do. Pay attention to how much you get paid an hour: the manual jobs usually have long hours. The answer as others have said depends on how much you are prepared to study, and what qualifications you have already. 84.13.16.216 (talk) 12:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

February 22

Traffic signals flashing yellow/red at night

In the US, many traffic signals are programmed to flash yellow continuously for traffic on the main road (and flash red continuously for traffic on the side road) during the overnight hours when traffic volume is very low. This allows the majority of traffic to continue through an intersection without stopping when it is unlikely there would be any cross traffic. Why can't more signals be set to do this? I recently had to arrive at work at 4am, which is not my usual time to be commuting, and was surprised by how many red lights I had to stop at along the way. In most cases, there was no cross traffic at these intersections, so it seemed pointless to make me stop when no one was trying to cross the main road on which I was driving. --Thomprod (talk) 02:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

No doubt more signals could be set to change their pattern depending on the time of day, but there is almost certainly an expense involved in programming signals in that way, and officials are unlikely to allocate scarce public resources to such reprogramming unless there is a strong public demand for it. Since, by definition, few people travel when traffic is light, there are few who would press their local government to make this change. Marco polo (talk) 02:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

There could also be some judgment by the planners as to the relative safety of doing that, as per the recnet "(no) right on red" discussion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course, if there's little traffic, there may be no real incentive to programming the lights in that way. APL (talk) 04:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Right. I don't see much cost issue in retiming the lights — in many places this can even be done from a central location. Around here, though, after a certain hour many lights will always show green on the main street and only change when they detect a car on the crossroad. Another issue is that many drivers totally ignore flashing yellow lights. Or speed up to avoid an anticipated upcoming red. PhGustaf (talk) 04:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

An alternative programming algorithm used in the UK is to have both sets of lights defaulting to red when traffic is light. On the approach of a vehicle, the lights on that particular route can quickly change to green by the time the vehicle reaches the intersection. From my experience, this seems to be the optimum for very light traffic. Dbfirs 13:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Hotel ceiling lights

Why don't most hotel rooms have lights in the ceiling, but instead floor or table lamps? Nadando (talk) 02:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Lamps probably cost less than it would cost to have fixtures installed in the ceilings of each room.71.161.59.15 (talk) 02:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

This is completely OR, but I wonder if it's because lamps would be easier to change the bulbs in, as well? The maid (or whatever you call the person who cleans a hotel room these days) would be able to easily change burnt-out bulbs in lamps without using a stepstool or ladder, but it would be more difficult to change them in a ceiling light. 24.247.163.175 (talk) 02:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Unlike in residential low-rise construction, there isn't necessarily a gap between the ceiling of one hotel room and the floor of the room above; it's often a solid concrete slab. Installing wiring for an overhead light would be costly and needlessly complex: [32]. (In some hotel rooms there is a drop ceiling by the entranceway and/or in the bathroom; this provides space for utility conduits and plumbing, and there may be ceiling lamps (or recessed pot lights) in these areas, at cost of a lower ceiling.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Where to read Michigan law?

Is there a site (preferably an official one) where I could read the full text of all Michigan (US) law? I tried Googling for it, but I wasn't quite sure if what came up was actually what I was looking for or not. Thanks in advance for the help! 24.247.163.175 (talk) 02:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

http://legislature.mi.gov/(S(j3ywcq3ue23rx1453apiot55))/mileg.aspx?page=ChapterIndex Enjoy! 63.17.88.122 (talk) 03:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)name

Info on Shetland ponies

What is the average pulling power and carry load of Shetland Pony? And are they known for being a generally easy to train animal? Thanks for any help 87.111.102.76 (talk) 13:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)