Talk:Artemis

Somethin Wrong

Someone seems to have been having some fun :D (if you know what i mean) with this page... check line 11 and below...

Also look at the "Artimus in Art" section someone has vandalized it with adolesent info that couldn't possible be true.

Vandalism

Ilana of Konel and related edits seem to be vandalism, google turns up nothing, not to mention the childish comments that went with it.

The part about Endymion is incorrect. Selene was the lover of Endymion.

This article seems to suffer quite a few random vandalism. I suggest making it uneditable to unregistered users. If I knew how, I'd do it myself. Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind. 22:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

This page really does seem to attract vandals. It seems that every time I check my watchlist, I need to revert something. I'm not sure if the volume of vandalism is high enough to get semi-protection, but I'd certainly support such an action at this point. --Starwed 07:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

==She is also the goddesss of wet cows

Random nitpicks ==

In the story of Adonis it says that: "This version is suspect because it implies that Artemis had lain with Ares and by virtually all accounts, she remained chaste throughout time." How can a version of a story be suspect? That implies that somehow one version is "truer" than another, which doesn't make very much sense in context. (Perhaps it is meant that that the version with Ares is corrupted from an older one?) It can be noted that it conflicts with many stories which name her chaste and virginal, but I don't see how it's "suspect."

Also, there's not really a good segue into the section devoted to stories of Artemis. I renamed one section to "Tales of Artemis and Men" from simply "Men" but there should be a proper introduction to the whole section. It should include information about who told the stories, how do we know of them, etc. --Starwed 02:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, there was what seemed to be an ad placed in the neopaganism section. The IP address which added it seemed related to the one it linked to, so I took that as confirmation and deleted it. --Starwed 03:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The birth section starts by just repeating the introduction, and it is rather short. I remember the myth of the twin's birth being reasonably involved, so it should be expanded some. (I'm not sure I have time to get around to it, though. :( But there should be plenty of resources on this if someone feels like it.) --Starwed 03:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Someone had added to the Birth section, but it was rather badly phrased. There are definatley multiple versions of the birth story out there: In some Leto couldn't give birth on the ground, in others she needed a place where the sun had never shone. There was also a serpant which either chased her or guarded the island... I might actually go to the library and look some of this up eventually... --Starwed 23:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Neopagans

The nasty bit about "Neopagan sects [sic]" needs some serious work, amongst the article in its entireness. → Chèvredan∫ante ^{talk · contrib} 00:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I.e. sources, etc. --→ Chèvredan∫ante ^{talk · contrib} 00:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

just a question that kinda bothersme

am i readin this wrong or did artemis have a relationship with ares or anyone else because most of the mithes state thate she disliked men plz let me knowe send a reply to kort88@hotmail.com

Quite right, the section begins with the assertion that Artemis sent the boar to destroy Adonis (correct), and that in another version it was Ares (also correct). The rest of the line and subsequent paragraph additions become confused: the bracketed "(who was a lover of Ares)" statement is reffering to Aphrodite, who was a lover of both Ares and Adonis, and not to Artemis. Both versions of the story are described in Apollodorus' Bibliotheke C3rd BC. I've now altered the content of this section to match the Greek source. Theranos 21:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Artemis in popular culture

This section has been repeatedly removed in its entirety as 'trivia'. I disagree, as I found some of the citations of the appearance of Artemis in poular culture interesting and revealing. It seems inconsistent to discuss modern-day worship of Artemis, but yet to dismiss as 'trivial' evidence of the interpretation and incorporation of the ancient myths into contemporary culture and media. Jpb1301 20:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes its better making a seperate page for this info such as "Artemis (popular culture)" and then make a heading and link on the main page. Otherwise some of the mythology entries get swamped with pop culture lists. So, perhaps that is a compromise.

EG Cerberus and Cerberus (popular culture)

Editing

So many scatter-brained "associations". I've removed the following texts:

• "She didn't yet know of her future."
• "In some Ancient Cultures Artemis was believed to be the male god of the plague, but this is not very widely known and sadly little is known about this."

If you have this page on your Watchlist, let's work to bring it up to the standard shown in some other Greek deities' entries. --Wetman 15:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've cleaned it of vandalisms and deletions again. --Wetman 08:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources of myth

I've removed some of the comments on classical sources from the page. Its a problematic area. Writers such as Callimachus, Hyginus, Anton. Lib., Ovid and others draw heavily on a host of older, now lost, Greek sources. Dating myths is extremely difficult! Case in point, Callimachus' Hymn to Artemis: some of these stories may have been sourced from the now lost Delian or other cult hymns to the goddess. --Theranos 18:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

...a suggestion that has been made by whom? Many items of "lost" documentation might be similarly conjured; a minor edit renders the information unchallengeable: "The childhood of Artemis is not embodied in any surviving myth." It doesn't seem very discerning to delete perfectly sound information, such as that the complete story of Siproites of Crete does not survive in any mythographer's works, or that the childhood of Artemis does not appear in any surviving myth, only in Callimachus' sentimental picture— and yet retain "There is a modern idea that Artemis once loved Orion, wanted to marry him, and was tricked into killing him...". The better sort of Wikipedians don't delete information whimsically. --Wetman 16:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the information because it is merely someone's opinion as to which classical sources present true "myths." Callimachus' others hymns contain many stories found in older sources, so there is no reason to disregard the hymn to Artemis. Antoninus Liberalis, is a mythographer, his work Metamorphoses is a collection of myths. I agree the section "modern idea ... " should be removed. I was not reviewing the whole article, merely looking to slightly improve some statements. You don't need to be so tetchy. Its a collaborative effort, I'm quite open to discuss it. --Theranos 20:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added some quotes from Callimachus' text to give a sense of the playful air. Even though his picture of baby Artemis charming her doting father is purely of his own poetic imagination, it is imbedded in a hymn that reveals his deeply learned grasp of mythology. The alert reader will doubtless sense the difference between what is urbanely charming in Callimachus and what is serious. Let's insert an apt quote or two from Callimachus' modern editors when we find them.-Wetman 06:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

That looks better. There is another online translation here as well: Callimachus Hymns. What do you think the best way is to list classical sources into these wiki articles? - as footnotes or within the body of the text of the article : and then either as content text or in the form of bracketed source notes (like the Smith Dict. of Classical Biography & Myth)? I've amended the Orion section anyway adding the source Hyginus on Istrus (a very obscure Greek poet!). --Theranos 07:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The Ephesian goddess

Would it be better to create a seperate article on the Ephesian goddess instead of incorporating it with this article> Although the Greeks did identify the Ephesian with Artemis she was really an Anatolian divinity, related to the Phrygian mother-goddess. --Theranos 12:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

By all means cut and paste the relevant material here and expand it as a separate article, leaving a For main article, see... heading here. The reason we don't cannibalize articles to produce a myriad splinters, is that information is lost as context is progressively stripped away. --Wetman 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

References

I found and added a NYT reference for the sacrificial testes bit, but I've not been able to find the original academic paper where Gerard Seitele made the suggestion. Hope this is sufficient - if it's not, please leave a note on my talk page and I'll try to find it at my next visit to the library. Squeezeweasel 19:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The New York Times article is in its travel section, with such blithe remarks as "Venus has long been popular with men because she so seldom bothered to dress"— which might not be suitable for noting in the Wikipedia article Venus (mythology). The article by Gerard Seitele or Seitel was published in 1979: a temporary glitch keeps me from accessing JSTOR. When I can, I'll introduce a precis of the article that offers some of Seitele's reasoning. "Gerard Seitele" and "Gerard Seitel" do not call up any hits at Google, most unusually for an academic figure, who one supposes publishes at regular intervals. The NY Times copy was inspired by the cheap heat-molded Turkish tourist mementoes of The Lady of Ephesus. --Wetman 21:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

There are no references to a Gerard Seitele at JSTOR The Scholarly Journal Archive, meaning that no articles by a "Gerard Seitele" are archived and that there are no mentions of a Gerard Seitele in archived articles. Can we get a source for these "bull's testicles", which are spreading around the Internet in amateur myth websites? Shouldn't we comment this out for the time being? --Wetman 22:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

All right. Gerard Seiterle is our source for this theory, which didn't take account of the gourd-shaped ambrer drops that had apparently decorated the archaic xoanon before the flood that destroyed the earlier "Artemision" (Anton Bammer, "A "Peripteros" of the Geometric Period in the Artemision of Ephesus" Anatolian Studies 40 (1990), pp. 137-160). I'll make a stab at reworking this material at Temple of Ephesus, with a precis here, from the peer-reviewed sources, for your emendations. --Wetman 23:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The bull's testes theory is described in Mark Munn's The Mother of the Gods, Athens, and the Tyranny of Asia: A Study of Sovereignty in Ancient Religion. Although I don't believe he is the first to propound this theory. There is also a possible allusion to the representation in an Anatolian myth found in Clement of Alexandria's Exhortation to the Greeks, in which bull's testes are described being cast into the lap of the Mother goddess as a propitiatory offering. --Theranos 17:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Possible vandalism.

Can anyone check this edit, it might be vandalism. · AndonicO ^Talk 14:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, some sources say they were 14, like this one and sites mentioned that they were only 12, check here and here. But About.com mentioned both numbers, so maybe both should be mentioned? \\Zhi\\ 18:19, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

FA and GA links

Can anyone add these links to the article? I think there are a couple of articles in other languages that are so. I can't edit anything right now, so could someone please try to add them? \\Zhi\\ 18:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this right?

Okay, I'm probably going to be proved wrong but, I have read in a book that Orion was Artemis' hunting partner and they were good friends. Then Apollo summoned a scorpion and he was killed. Is that right? MTob (talk) 19:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)MTob 3/27/08

See Orion and references. --Wetman (talk) 07:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Eternal Adolesence

The primary introduction should include something about her wish to never mature, as that was a signifigent aspect of the goddess. That and her virginity should be stressed a lot more. Besides, somebody needs to clean up that introAnkhAnanku 18:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

she is the goddess of the hunt and the moon  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.89.34 (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC) 

Modern depiction of the Greek Gods

And especially the Goddesses.

We have to present the Olympians on wikipedia in a way which is morally-correct, so they become likable for the general public. Ain't nothing wrong with morally-correct censorship, this only contributes to the wellbeing of public morality.

Best regards, Phalanxpursos 16:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"Goddess of the hunt"

We have an editor here who insistently comes down hard on the wrong end of the empty quibble "Artemis was a goddess who hunted, not the goddess of the hunt." In point of fact, Artemis and her precursor were protectresses of the animals before they were patronesses of the hunt. Artemis always carries a bow and quiverful of arrows: in what myth is she seen to shoot down an animal? Any animal? I think none. When Artemis does shoot, and she does, her victims are Orion, the Niobids, or human sufferers of plague and sickness. Indeed, when she would destroy a human-turned-animal, other agents are always employed to do the work: Actaeon's dogs, Callisto's bear-hunting son. This point should be made clearly in the article, by someone willing to provide a footnoted reference for every statement. •yawn•--Wetman (talk) 01:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Archeological Images of Original Artemis of Ephesus

I hope this doesn’t repeat twice. I'd posted earlier but do not see it. I have placed a link in the “external links” section, featuring some wonderful pics of the actual archeological images of Artemis as she actually appears in her ancient home of Ephesus. Her worship was later transported to Greece, Turkey and Rome. Artemis’ temples were destroyed and re-built seven times. However, the museum managed to salvage some of the actual original images of her. Enjoy! Anagossii--74.229.102.208 (talk) 05:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The link in question: Ancient Archeological Images of Artemis of Greece and Rome: a personal website with several grainy images of the Lady of Ephesus, copyright uncertain, already well illustrated in the article. Linkcruft. Reverted--Wetman (talk) 07:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Artemis and the Moon

The article currently makes the claim (without citation) that the association of Artemis with the moon is "a popular idea which has little foundation". I wonder how this claim can be made? She is not just sometimes, but often represented with a crescent at her brow, and though it can be (and has been) argued convincingly that this is the result of an association with Hecate or Selene, this association was made at least as early as a fragment of Aeschylus that refers to the the shining light of the sun as contrasted with the light of the moon ("the starry eye of Leto's child"). This association, clearly established in some places as early as the mid 6th to mid 5th century BCE (the approximate period in which Aeschylus lived) is recognized in the Oxford Classical Dictionary (the one I have to hand is the 3rd Edition, and I find this association between Artemis and the moon via Aeschylus in the article on Selene). If the association between Artemis and the moon was recognized at this early date and was only reinforced over the centuries until paganism was generally supplanted, how can we say this is a popular idea with little foundation? --Picatrix (talk) 17:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm still gathering citations, but it is possible that mention should be made of the association between the moon, reproduction, monthly cycles and childbirth. Artemis (in one of her manifestations or another) was often associated with childbirth, or with young women up until the time that they 'became women' (presumably associated with the onset of menstruation, cf. relations between some Greek terms for moon, month and menses - existing for obvious reasons). Further, the moon is deeply associated with hunting, based upon changes in animal activity which correspond to the lunar cycle. Finally, as the sibling (or wife) of Apollo in some cults her association with the moon (as a counterpoint to his association with the sun) seem relatively early. --Picatrix (talk) 16:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The association of Artemis, rather than Selene, with the moon is Hellenistic, like the association of Apollo with the Sun; the moon cult is much older, but there is no evidence that I know of that it bore that name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

That counter-intuitive association of virginal Artemis with childbirth is a consequence of conflating her with Eileithyia, venerated in a cave cult from Minoan times in Crete. There is no connection of Eileithyia with the moon. You see, Artemis, like the other Olympian goddesses, assumed several quite separate pre-Olympian roles. One can't whip them all together, though, into a syncretic Artemis smoothie of lunar cycles, menstrual blood, hunting, childbirth. At each place, at each time, on each occasion there is a quite specific local Artemis, which we have trouble enough comprehending anyway.--Wetman (talk) 05:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

Phoebe bad link

The link to Phoebe which is supposed to be to the Phoebe of mythology actually goes to the astronomical Phoebe. I can't change this myself because I'm unregistered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.169.202 (talk) 10:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit Suggestion

{{editsemiprotected}} Only a small one but maybe worth looking at. In the Iphigenia and the Taurian Artemis section it is stated that "Artemis then snatches Iphigenia from the altar and substitutes a deer". This is not actually accuracte - it is the account that Agamemnon has Talthybius give to Clytemnestra, but she doesn't believe him. In some versions of the myth Agamemnon then enters covered in Iphigenia's blood and tells Clytemnestra that Iphigenia is with Artemis, a statement that could be taken to mean she was saved by the Goddess or is actually dead. A better ending to the section might be "Agamemnon agrees to the sacrifice but it is unclear as to whether he completes it or whether Artemis rescues Iphigenia at the last moment, replacing her with a deer". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulknox (talk • contribs) 03:20, 28 January 2010

 Not done: Welcome and thanks for contributing. Could you supply a reference which supports the change? Thanks, Celestra (talk) 04:22, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi...

In the E. P. Coleridge translation, Clytemnestra, after being told the tale of Artemis' intervention, says:

Clytemnestra [1615]: Which of the gods, my child, has stolen you? How am I to address you? How can I be sure that this is not an idle tale told to cheer me, to make me cease my piteous lamentation for you?

Agamemnon enters and says, ambiguously:

Agamemnon: Lady, we may be counted happy, as far as concerns our daughter; for in truth she has fellowship with gods. But you must take this tender child and start for home, for the army is looking now to sail. [1625] Fare you well! it is long before I shall greet you on my return from Troy.; may it be well with you!

When the stories were adapted for the RSC in the late 70s under the title "The Greeks: The War", John Barton chose to re-word Clytemnestra's above statement to a simple "I do not believe you". When Agamemnon enters, his stage directions explicitly state that Agamemnon should have "his chest smeared with Iphigenia's blood".

Hope this helps! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulknox (talk • contribs) 06:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

Artemis: Arta/Arda /Arte ="river" (in Luwian Language) , mis ="goddess"

see Arda (Maritsa) & Arda (Italy)

more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Luwian_language#Luwian_Gods_and_Goddesses Böri (talk) 10:36, 4 February 2010 (UTC)