Talk:Mother Teresa

For previous discussion, see:

Warning: Very high flaming level

• Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive1
• Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive2
• Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive3
• Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive4
• Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive5
• Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive6
• Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive7

You may want to read the Talk:Mother Teresa/FAQ and related discussion before commenting. Also see Talk:Mother Teresa/Groundrules.

Cooled down

This page has sure cooled down. Has everyone just given up, or have you guys just been busy during the holidays? All of a sudden, everyone stopped editing the talk page, and I am just wondering why this happened. Greenmountainboy 17:43, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm back. I've tried to restore some sanity to the article, let me know if I've succeeded.—Eloquence 03:48, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

It's hard to say. If I try to check the diff, I have many red block and don't know if you only add/removed a blank line somewhere or if you edited the text. I may not used diff tool in the proper way. Anyway, if it's you that have removed the subtitles under the pictures, I think it's a good thing. gbog 04:53, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I removed some attributions where the facts are uncontroversial (e.g. it is not just alleged that MT spoke against abortion both publicly and in meetings with public officials, it's a documented fact), I also reorganized the criticism section, got rid of a few POV terms like "complain" and restored some deleted information. Yes, I also shortened the captions, because with the new automatic thumbnails, long captions are better placed on the image page itself and not in the article.—Eloquence 04:59, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

I don't know what are the customs but, from my POV, it would have been easyer to check if you had made 3-4 different edits (one for blocks, one for captions, one for re-adding stuff,...) gbog

I don't like how most of the criticism were diverted to another page and then removed from that page. I find that to be very sneaky and cowardly. --CHF

Pascal's wager

One point I do not believe is the following paragraph:

Mother Teresa's defenders have responded that baptisms are either soul-saving or harmless, so the criticisms are without merit (a variant of Pascal's Wager).

Symon Leys' opinion is a really bad and clearly wrong way of expressing why someone would approve those baptisms. Lots of people (and I mean defendants of MT) would not agree with that explanation. That's why I am changing the phrasing. Actually, I have doubts that those baptisms as stated here are properly performed. But this is just my my my opinion. In any case, assuming that all defenders are pro-Leys is wrong. Pfortuny 13:27, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC) (Apologies: I have touched the "criticism" section although I said I would not, but I feel this change can be thought as not strictly touching that section). If I hurt anyone, I apologize. Pfortuny 13:32, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I do not understand why Mr. Eloquence changed some headlines. The words he used are extremely loaded. I think that very unprofessional in what is supposed to be a neutral encyclopedia. We should be clinically neutral, not reading like propaganda. I presume Mr. Eloquence simply made a mistake and does not write as badly normally. 213.190.149.122

Would you mind logging in (and creating a user account)? That would make our communication more "human". Of course, feel free. Pfortuny 17:06, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I did not change the headlines, Silsor did.—Eloquence

I unreservedly apologise if I accused the wrong person. Please accept my apologies, Mr. Eloquence. I may have accused the wrong gentleman, (I must have misread the article history) but I think the point was correct. The language was not clinically neutral, which it should be.

As to Mr Pfortuny, I am a free spirit who does not like the concept of creating 'accounts', which sounds like banking. But I appreciate the generousity of your advice. 62.77.180.65

Oh, no problem. As a free spirit, I like to be called by a name and not a number (actually four numbers), which is possible only by banking. But this is just a joke. :) Pfortuny 18:54, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Minor edit Baptism

I would like to make a minor edit in the section titled Baptisms of the Dying. I would like to edit this section:

Critics have argued that Mother Tersea's order provided insufficient information to its patients to make an informed decision about whether they wanted to convert to Catholicism, and that a "blessing" is much different from a baptism.

Baptism is not a conversion to Catholicism or even to Christianity. It is "the sacrament of regeneration by water in the word (per aquam in verbo)." (Roman Catechism.) According to Catholic teachings Baptism washes away a person's sins and makes it possible for the person to enter the kingdom of Heaven. This would make Mother Teresa's statement that it is a 'ticket to heaven' accurate.

I would like to rewrite the paragraph to read:

Critics have argued that patients were not provided sufficient information to make an informed decision about whether they wanted to be baptized and the theological significance of a Christian baptism.

I believe this maintains the substance of the criticism, but does not equate Baptism with conversion.

--Pcaylor 20:13, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. This page has been quiet for a while now, I think you can probably make changes like this without worrying so much about reigniting flames. :) Bryan 00:42, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Your expression is probably better than the present one. Pfortuny 07:32, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

I think it might be worth altering this to "Catholic baptism". As a non-Catholic Christian, I definitely can't see an equation of removal of sin and baptism anywhere other than in Catholic church history. I'll change it, but obviously it can be changed back if there's a good reason for this change not to happen! Robg 14:05, 10 January 2006 (GMT)

Mother Theresa never forced anyone to convert to Catholicism. In fact, she even brought in muslim or hindu representatives as requested by the sick and dying !

Additions by anon and some changes

Recent additions by an anonymous editor undoubtly needed npoving, but this "npoving" by Eloquence could be a little bit too much and ressembles a revert... gbog 12:57, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Hardly. We've already discussed the collection of quotes, and adding "allegedly" to a proven fact or hiding rambling accusations in "Some critics would argue" is itself POV.--Eloquence* 18:09, May 30, 2004 (UTC)

Maybe. I don't know. What I know is that a cat should be called a cat, and a "3/4 revertion on a possible new user's edit" called a "3/4 revertion on a possible new user's edit". If the guy who added this (probably full of good will) comes back and sees what happend to his (possibly first) contribution, what will he think about wikipedia project and wikipedians ? gbog 03:47, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I carefully reintegrated every useful statement he added to the article, improved his language and added a citation. If you want to call that a 3/4 revert, call it a 3/4 revert. But a revert costs me about 5 seconds while this edit cost me about 5 minutes. Certainly we will not allow a collection of rambling POV statements to be added to an article just to make a newbie happy. Would you make the same argument if someone had edited, say, Donald Rumsfeld in the same manner ("Many would argue that Rumsfeld knows nothing about warfare, that he never was in a war, and that he certainly should not be allowed to command thousands of soldiers who are willing to give their life for the questionable goals dictated by US imperialist foreign policy.")?--Eloquence*

I don't know anyone called Ronald Rumsteak or Donald Rhumfield that could have something to do with our Holly Mother Theresa :), subjet of this article; do you ? I just pointed that being a little bit softer in your 3/4 reverts (by explaining them on talk page, for example) could be nice and would give the good example (as MT did !) to new users. gbog 07:07, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I do not know Donald Rumsfeld either -or what he has to do with this article. However, in some sense the quotations stuff was already discussed and they were removed. However again, this does not mean those quotations or something similar cannot be added. The problem is we want an article not a collection of pro/anti statements. That's what makes quotations complicated. However again, I also agree that any large edit had rather be discussed -or at least- explained in the talk page. However, I only say "had rather" not needs and even less must. Pfortuny 07:58, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

For quotations, there is Wikiquote. Regarding Rumsfeld, you may read our article analogy.--Eloquence*

Gandhi.

It is alleged in the wiki article for Indira Gandhi that Mother Teresa supported Gandhi during her repressive 1975-77 "emergency powers" period. I have never read of anything like this before, and I hate to accuse a good woman without good proof.

Can anybody tell me if this is true? I seriously hope not, but if it IS true it belongs somewhere in the wiki article.

Support for forced sterilisation?

Another point: The article includes the following statement: After Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi's suspension of civil liberties in 1975, and her son's campaign of forced sterilisation, she said: "People are happier. There are more jobs. There are no strikes." If she made this statement, I think it is necessary to make the following clear: 1. Did she support the suspension of civil liberties? 2. Did she support the campaign of forced sterilisation? 3. Did she support both? She might have supported the state of emergency, but I think that it is quite unlikely that she supported forced sterilisation (since that would have contradicted her (and the Vatican's) stance on similar topics (e.g. abortion, contraception etc.). It'd like to have the question of her support of forced sterilisation be backed up by sources. Gugganij 19:10, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

So do I. I doubt its truth very much. Pfortuny 12:16, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If the statement mentioned above is not backed up by a reliable source. I am going to delete at least the part and her son's campaign of forced sterilisation in one week. Gugganij 14:35, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Supporting documentation

I believe the source for the claim is Aroup Chatterjee's The Final Verict: from chapter 14:

Q.101. What were the relationships of Mother Teresa and of Missionaries of Charity with various religious and civil authorities with which they came in contact with?

A. She was expedient and practical about keeping good relations for survival in a generally hostile country like India. The ruling party of West Bengal, the Marxists had close ties with the (erstwhile) Albanian Communist Party which had persistently refused her permission to see her mother and sister. But she appeased the West Bengal government and would collaborate with any politician (of whatever persuasion) who would further her cause. She maintained friendly relations with all religious groups because it was necessary for her to do so. During the 1974 - 77 Emergency in India, thousands of men (many of them unmarried and childless) were forcibly vasectomised, but she praised the state of emergency as she had friendly relations with Mrs Gandhi who she saw as the best protector of Indian Christians amongst the Indian political establishment.

Chatterjee's response is clearly juxtaposing the fact of the mass sterilisation with MT's support for the state of emergency and provides a motive (expediency, ie. currying favour), but does not directly assert that MT specifically supported the sterilisation. ---- Charles Stewart 01:26, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is true, but (as Hitchens states in his book) is still a morally questionable position for a saint. Evidently some sterilizations were acceptable to Teresa as the price for a policy that would offer Christians the most protection. It's the "greater good" argument, but she and the church are supposed to deal in absolutes. ProhibitOnions 22:53:12, 2005-08-22 (UTC)

Muggeridge miracle

I'm surprised the supposed miracle of good camera work in the Muggeridge documentary isn't mentioned. Maybe it is covered and dismissed in the endless talk articles. I would add it myself but I might loose an arm, perhaps a braver soul then I will see fit to include what I think is a significant point. MeltBanana 01:04, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, I have not seen it here ever and I do know the talk pages rather well... Feel free to add true content (dunno what that is about). Pfortuny 17:30, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I Find it Unbelieveable that Mother Teresa is a Controversial Topic!

Why should Mother Teresa be a "controversial topic" I wonder? So many intolerant and hateful people are in the world as it is, do we need so many at Wikipedia? Pitchka 20:36, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we remove the Mother Teresa article from Wikipedia because it's about an intolerant and hateful person? :) Bryan 21:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Apologies, the "controversial" notice was tagged incorrectly, it is supposed to be issues that comes with the topic. At first I thought I had to use {{controversial}} because I thought {{controversial2}} was supposed to put on the article itself. - Mailer Diablo 11:58, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Could someone review this edit? [1] silsor 17:42, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Farming out criticisms

This edit by Digby moved the whole of the criticisms section onto a subordinate page. Was this a good thing? Possibly not all of the criticisms deserve to be on the main page, but the edit seems to me to have imbalanced the article. ---- Charles Stewart 00:32, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think so, it was getting very big. Somebody needs to go and summarize the criticisms to put on the main page, then it should look better. -Frazzydee|✍ 00:38, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No, it's not a good thing. This has been tried before, see Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive1#Separate article for criticisms.3F, Talk:Mother Teresa/Archive4#Split article .3F. I am thoroughly opposed to it; if an article is too long it should be split up into sub-articles based on topic, not based on POV. Splitting an article up based on POV takes one article that could potentially have been NPOV and turning into two articles which are by design both POV. Not good. Bryan 02:03, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Okay, didn't know it had been discussed before. For the record, I didn't move the section, I just renamed it. And left a short summary on Mother Teresa. -Frazzydee|✍ 02:12, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No problem. Looks like Digby did it, and he has very few edits so he probably wasn't aware of the previous discussion either. He didn't even give an edit summary or I probably would have noticed this split a lot earlier, I have things on my watchlist for reasons I've long forgotten and don't pay a lot of attention to any more. :) Bryan 06:14, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad this article has a criticism section, but...

Some of the criticism offered are really inane.

Chatterjee added that the public image of Mother Teresa as a "helper of the poor" was misleading, and that only a few hundred people are served by even the largest of the homes.

Suppose this is true. How is only helping hundreds of people a grounds for criticism?

When the money a charitable organization has received is enough to help an awful lot more than hundreds of people, and it only helps hundreds, that is reasonable grounds for criticism. The best (for MT) interpretation of this is that her charity was incompetently run. Michael Voytinsky 00:59, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

In fact, the money not used to help an awful lot more (and instead, to misappropriate it to mission elsewhere, thereby furthering her own interests) is the same as taking it away from the needy it was supposed to help (by the people giving the money). AFAIR, Chatterjee even claims that no money whatsoever was used to help the poor (instead, pledged material goods where used). Large amounts of money were, however, transferred to Rome, primarily from the US where spenders where led to believe that the money goes straight to the poor. Collecting millions upon millions for the poor and then serving this help no more than lip service is questionable at best. I call it fraud.

She's critized for opposing abortion. Where's the controversy in that? There's probablly over a billion people on this planet that oppose abortion. I think criticism sections she deal with criticism of genuine flaws not merely political opininions that some people happed to disagree with.

She is criticized for spending too much money on missionary work. While the article should accurately describe how much of her resources were spent on missionary work and how much on helping people, this should not be a criticism. It should be delt with outside of the criticism section, and readers can form their own opinions as to the appropriateness of her spending.

After Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi's suspension of civil liberties in 1975, Mother Teresa said: "People are happier. There are more jobs. There are no strikes."

Without the context it is imposible to tell if the above quote was meant to be approving of the governments policy or if it was simply Teresa's opinion of the factual result of the policy. --Heathcliff 02:39, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Heathcliff, what is notable about the criticism, and I would say valid, is that she has this angelic, beatific reputation, and an outrageously overblown reputation helping the sick, but she appears to have done so little in comparison to her reputation. When they hear "hospitals", people think of places to get help with injuries, illnesses, diseases, and what we would call medical care. But many say the sick got next to nothing. They were prayed over, but not really care for medically. Which leads' to the more serious point: that she -- to many -- seems to have raised gobs, and gobs, of money, hand over fist, allowing people to think they were providing money for said medical care, while standing by smilingly allowing them to believe a lie.

They are NOT criticising her for only helping a few people. They are criticising her for appearing world-wide as this vision of goodness, willingly accepting praise and reputation for something she had to have known was not true. Paul Klenk 16:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I also think it is great there is a criticism section - but this is ridiculous. By word count, 40% of the article is criticism. That's great that some of you have a bone to pick with MT, but do you really think this article is *neutral*? How many times does this article mention diversion of funds? The MT article should not spend so much time repeating (over and over again) views that are held by so few journalists, historians, and commentators. Read the newspaper or a biography, ask other people - Mother Teresa is a very very NON controversial figure. This article is a joke. I added a NPOV check to the article. Editors should read the Wikipedia policy on Neutral Point of View - especially Undue Weight (Anonymous User) 12:00, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

a "joke" would be to assert that there is undue weight on criticism, without making any argument for why the level of criticism is undue. also, while citing unspecified "other people" is impressive, i suspect a better approach is to cite actually existing people, as is done in the criticisms section of the article.

OK, I'm coming into this discussion a bit late, but really. Anyone who claims that MT is uncontroversial, let alone "very very NON controversial", is living with a head firmly buried in the sand. Rossini was a rather uncontroversial person. Ivan Lendl was a very uncontroversial person. But if someone is being fast-tracked for sainthood while investigative reporters the world over are raising serious arguments against the person in question's public image and the validity of the "miracle" on which the beatification was based, how could one reasonably claim that the person is uncontroversial? The Anonymous User (above) might have no doubt about MT's character and legacy, and that might be true for many, but for someone to be uncontroversial, that lack of doubt must be almost universally held. --Slashme 12:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Moving criticisms to Political Views

I agree with those above that political views is not grounds for an encylopedic section labeled criticism. I think criticism sections should be more reserved for ideologies, policies, politicial views, and philosophies rather than people. Ideologies, policies by their nature warrant criticism and can have a 'criticism section', whereas a section of criticisms of people tends to just be selective agenda-driven, dislike for the person or their views. I mean, its one things to have a criticism section in a pro-life article, but a criticism section for each and every publicly pro-life person for being pro-life? That's too POV in my opinion. I'm sure those who put her political views on abortion are quite hypocritical and would oppose a pro-lifer criticizing every single outspoken supporter of abortion or safe sex or whatnot. Controversial issues involving a person should be incorporated in different sections such as say "Controversy over Missionary Work" or "Funding Incident", not a Criticism section - anonymous one

I have two comments on the statement "Teresa also campaigned tirelessly against divorce, insisting it should be made illegal; she organized an unsuccessful campaign to keep the Irish ban on divorce in 1996. However, when Diana, Princess of Wales divorced, she spoke approvingly of it in a magazine interview. [4]" in the Political and social views section. 1) The sentence makes it appear that MT was quoted as supporting divorce, rather than expressing sympathy for Diana's difficult marriage. 2) The link to supporting documentation is to a web-page that is filled with additional criticism of MT. This seems disingenious. Either link it to the article itself or something less pointed. Unfortunately the only reference I could find was http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9606/public.html which is more pro-MT but probably is a more balanced treatment of the issue. OnLooker 14:48, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Photo

That picture is very odd. Apparently it is a photo of a tapestry, but it looks like it was taken from an angle. Even an old black and white picture would be better. -Willmcw 03:42, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

• Yes, I was completely surprised by it; a strange angle. Krupo July 9, 2005 19:20 (UTC)

Critcism takes up more than half the article!

It is ridiculous that the criticism of Mother Teresa takes up half the article! If the critics want to write so much then a page of criticisms should be created with just the main points of critcism on the main page.

No, 50% is well-balanced, in fact. Criticism is of course a central aspect of the reception of MT. In fact, as the article is now (Nov 2005), it is imbalanced, as most of it oozes admiration.

I know that Catholics and Christians seem to be hated by many liberals/socialists the world over but this is just sick how you people are vilifying this very holy woman. She was and is a true saint regardless of what you haters out there think. Dwain 22:23, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

How is valid criticism of a person "ridiculous"? Because you don't want to hear it? Additionally, many Catholics/Christians ARE liberals/socialists, so your argument that these groups hate Christians is bunk. I believe the group you're trying to scapegoat is atheist/secularist. Cog05 22:13 August 27, 2005

How is asking someone if they want to repent their sins and have a blessing anything to be criticized? And now the super liberal, atheist, Hitchens is an authority on Mother Teresa? He believes that the Ten Commandments are immoral. Should the criticism of a loon like really be included in this article or any for that matter? Who cares what that idiot has to say about Mother Teresa? Criticisms are being invented by you libs! And no, I'm talking about you liberal socialists because they are the secular atheists. Dwain 04:14, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm an atheist myself, but definitely not a socialist or "liberal." Seems to me you should pay attention to some of the differences before you throw accusations around.

Perhaps more importantly, you might want to read Hitchens's book. While I found some of his positions a little weak (that, for example, Teresa was able to see the problems inherent in overpopulation, but continued to condemn family planning in any form), most of his criticisms are well documented, such as her praise for some dubious political leaders, the concentration-camp-like conditions in many of her homes, the mystery of where all the money went (when it obviously didn't go to medical care), and her unequivocal criticism of divorce except for her celebrity friends. Teresa was obviously a very cunning person, and earned lots of money for the church by implying it went to medical care in India, whereas it went into the church's general fund instead. (Hitchens does not say this is "bad" because he dislikes religion, only because it was a bait-and-switch tactic.)

I agree with you, giving people a blessing by itself may be harmless, but (Hitchens asserts) the real scandal is how many people were allowed to die without any medical attention or palliatives. Many would have recovered, had they seen a doctor, and many probably went to Teresa's home imagining they would receive proper medical treatment. With the hundreds of millions of dollars — and possibly much more — she collected in the name of the sick, Teresa never built a single hospital. A "very holy woman," indeed. ProhibitOnions 15:34:37, 2005-08-31 (UTC)

As a Christian leftie who is decidedly not an atheist, I would also take exception to the equation of liberalism with secularism. Jesus was, after all, the prototypical Communist :P Carolynparrishfan 17:18, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Dwain, the whole blessing thing wasn't what I was talking about, as others have said, it was pretty much harmless. What I took issue with was the fact that people were mislead into thinking that donations were going towards medical care for these people, and it wasn't. Giving credit where credit is due though, Mother Theresa did tend to the emotional needs of her patients. But I don't think that excuses the fact that these people weren't getting adequete medical care with all of that money coming in. Also Dwain, I'm pretty sure an atheist is secular by association, while not nessecarily liberal or socialist. =) Cog05 19:48 September 16, 2005

Citizenship

Hi there. I've had absolutely nothing to do with this article, but was surfing by when I happened to see William's recent edit of the sentence about the postage stamp. I'm not entirely certain of this, but I seem to remember Teresa was indeed an Indian citizen. I'll see if I can find out.—Encephalon | ^ζ  22:32:37, 2005-08-22 (UTC)

Hm. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica's Guide to the Nobel Prizes, she indeed was an Indian national, William. See the line just below the photograph in this article.—Encephalon | ^ζ  22:40:11, 2005-08-22 (UTC)

OK, then call her an Indian citizen. But to simply call her an "Indian" glosses over her actual heritage. Have other, non-native Indians had the privilege (excluding the UK monarch, of course)? -Willmcw 22:43, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Hey there. Sorry, I read your User name as William, somehow. It's Willmcw. About this issue, I don't have any vested interest whatsoever in it either way; I saw what I thought might be a factual error, and asked about it. Your idea is intriguing, however. One wonders: can immigrants never be called, simply and without qualification, sons and daughters of their new homes? Is a Briton who happens to be of Chinese descent never "really" British, but merely a "UK citizen"? Is an American who happens to be of Korean descent always doomed to be an "American citizen," never just, simply and beautifully, an American? Would it make a difference if he were of Irish descent? And what about, as you put it, "non-native Indians" who call that country home? Was the Italian widow of one of the Gandhis, who received as I recall more votes than any other politician in the recent elections, considered anything other than an Indian by the majority of her people? All interesting questions. For my own part I've always looked at this quite simply: a person who considers the country of his citizenship to be his "home" in a deeply important sense, is, simply, X (where X is American, or British, or Indian, or Australian, etc). This is to some extent dependent on the homogeneity of the native population. However, "heritage" is the detail, not the kernel; where Teresa and this article are concerned, certainly the page does so excellent a job of delineating her personal story that an edit saying she was Indian, which I believe is what she always considered herself to be, looks to me perfectly honest. It is difficult to see that it "glosses over her heritage," when her birth and childhood are actually described in rich and welcoming detail; conversely, a reluctance to call her simply the way she called herself throughout her long life reflects a certain POV that I find difficult to understand.

Anyway, I'd rather not introduce edits here, Willcmw; I spoke to clarify a factual question. We've never, as I recall, had the pleasure of a discussion before this, but you have a reputation for insight, skill, and fairness that precedes you. I'm sure that the regular editors of this article and you will do what's best for the piece. Kind regards—Encephalon | ^ζ  23:59:59, 2005-08-22 (UTC)

The current text, "She was the first and only person to be featured on an Indian postage stamp while still alive," looks fine to me. Thanks. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:13, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

Christopher Hitchens

I'm afraid that some of the contributors to this article are being disingenuous. To rely quite heavily upon the arguments of Christopher Hitchens for criticism against Mother Teresa and yet not let the reader know that Hitchens is working from an avowed atheistic and anti-religion bias is in and of itself biased.

Then to erase anything that clarify's (sic) where Hitchen's background is out and out collusion. This matter has to be resolved. Dwain 19:21, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

A couple of guidelines you may want to familarize yourself with before saying people are colluding are : Assume good faith and There is no cabal. --JPotter 22:57, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

I repeat: Have you read the book? It's easy to complain about the "bias" of someone you plainly don't agree with, but Hitchens' book is not unsupported ranting. Hitchens is a critic of MT, and it is his criticism that is the issue. Nothing wrong with saying he's an atheist, but your rather shrill insert "The atheist and anti-religion..." isn't exactly neutrality.

Just wondering, who else do you think should carry a disclaimer? ProhibitOnions 20:29:41, 2005-08-31 (UTC)

Hello? Can you read? On Wikipedia's own article on Mr. Hitchens it says "he despises religion," my "anti-religion" terminlogy is mild compared to that. People who read this article on Mother Teresa won't necessarily go to Hitchens' article to find out what his views are on religion so by not included a relevent description of so vehement a critic of Mother Teresa, and one who is made mention to more than once, is a deliberate ommision.

The reason I removed the appelations is that it is more neutral (and more persausive) to show why Hitchen's arguments are bad, rather than calling him names. --JPotter 22:50, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Stating two facts that are listed on his own article are not calling him names. He seems quite proud in fact of his atheism and his stance on religion. You state that it is more "persausive" to leave out important facts about the accuser? And what do you call that? I call that deliberately trying to persaude people to believe that Mother Teresa is the person Hitchens says she is and that is called POV! Wake up. If I started adding criticism about President Clinton on his article based on the arguments or book by someone but didn't include that this person was a "conservative Republican" or one who called for Clinton's impeachment, I'm pretty sure that you would think it wouldn't be right to try and persaude people without given those pertinent facts. Think about it. Dwain 03:59, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

I think you need to take a breath, calm down and be more WP:CIVIL. It is more persausive to detail the failings of Hitchen's criticisms than to merely state that he is anti-religious. One's religiousity is not relevant, the merit of one's criticism is. --JPotter 19:36, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Well, it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about and that you are trying to sway people to a certain conclusion which of course is Point of View! The fact that at least two of the three people going after the integrity of Mother Teresa are atheists is relevant. The fact that Hitchen's is fanatically anti-religious is relevant. The fact that ProhibitOnions is an atheist is relevant. The fact that you are trying to say that I am bei ng uncivil to you is RELEVANT too. I have been very civil to you I haven't called you any names but it seems like you are getting it all planned out that if I don't quaintly go away and stop my arguing over this matter you will try to imply that I have been uncivil. Dwain 04:02, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

How is Hitchens' atheism relevant when he details non-religious facts like her order's financial improprieties? One need not be a flaming liberal to disgree with Prez Bush. You seem to want to demonize Hitchens' beliefs rather than his argument. Red Darwin 16:12, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

First off how am I trying to demonize Hitchens? By revealing two basic points that are listed on the Wikipedia's own article about? Secondly you are calling his accusations facts on the one hand and this article states as another complaint that neither her charity or the Vatican would reveal their financial handlings to people like Hitchens. Just because Hitchens makes accusations does not mean that they are true. On this page people have complained that M. Teresa didn't build any hospitals. She openned hospices these are different than hospitals.

My main complaint is taking up half the article with complaints they should be summarized and then have links to details about each complaint on their own page or pages. My secod suggestion was to clarify where Hitchens POV is coming from. He obvious went into this research starting out with a negative point of view. Why? Because he is an atheist who does not like religion or as stated on his article page "despises religion." If you say you don't understand why that is relevant I won't believe you.

I am not suggesting to remove realistic criticisms about her or her or group but I think the context of the few people making these drastic allegations should be included. Hitchens has strong negative beliefs at the outset towards Mother Teresa just the trashy, vulgar play on words of his book tells us that. Dwain 20:52, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting removal of realistic criticisms about this page, but I think the context of the few people making these drastic allegations should be included. Dwain has strong positive beliefs at the outset towards Mother Teresa; just the violent hostile words of his posts tell us that.

To deal with someone instead of their arguments is argumentum ad hominem, and to say that "Well, it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about" and telling people to "Wake up." is uncivil and a bit ad hominem itself. Let's keep to the facts of the discussion and avoid accusing the people behind it.--Prosfilaes 08:24, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

As I mentioned before, there's nothing wrong with mentioning that Hitchens is an atheist, though this should not be written as a disclaimer, as some of Dwain's edits have read, and it should not be the first thing said about him. I should mention that I like Dwain's last edit to the first paragraph, in which he quotes Hitchens' strong condemnation, without going into detail about who he is.

It should also be mentioned that Hitchens did not choose the title for his book (The Missionary Position), and he has spoken of his unhappiness with it; his preferred title ("Sacred Cow"), while also provocative, at least is relevant in terms of the Indian context and the taboo against criticizing Mother Teresa. ProhibitOnions 12:20:37, 2005-09-05 (UTC)

Plagiarism

Most of the criticism section is taken from rotten.com without citation.

Can you cite some specific sentences? I read through the rotten.com article and didn't see any clear cut cases of plagiarism, but I probably just missed it, so if you could be more specific? Let me also add that it could very well be rotten.com that copied parts of this article when they wrote their. Most of the criticism section here dates back to 2003, I think, (was subject to lot's of flaming and controversy), and I believe the rotten.com article was written this year. But I could be wrong, and we should take copyright violations seriously. Shanes 06:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The Rotten article uses text snippets copied from our article, not vice versa. You can verify this by going back in the history of this article and seeing that the words change over time, but the Rotten phrases are static and taken from a specific point in this article's history. silsor 07:05, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The rotten.com article on Mother Theresa was written in 2002. It was not plagiarized from the Wikipedia entry. 216.218.244.9 14:34, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I looked again at the text I was using for comparison before, the bit about Keating and the $252 million, and I think I was wrong about it being original to Wikipedia - the edits I was looking at earlier were not the first source of it. It seems to have come in here in the history and may very well have been copied from the Rotten article. That text is no longer present in the article and I can't find anything else that might have been copied from Rotten. Are there any copyright problems still here? silsor 20:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't have time to look through the history right now, but I do know that I added, wrote and researched much of the material about Keating myself. I also note that some photos have been removed. I will have to go in later to restore the deleted material, but it is a shame that this article keeps being attacked, now under the new justification of "plagiarism".--Eloquence* 14:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Christian Criticism

I think there should be a mention of the criticism and accusations from Christians of her being pantheist and Universalist, and not truly Christian. For example, here are some links to some criticism based on her various quotes and actions: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc... I'm surprised it wasn't even mentioned in the article. Well, somewhat surprised, knowing Wikipedia. Okay, maybe just disappointed. Also the first of the criticism links is broken. 66.41.75.236 05:00, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

And, incorporating this in the criticism section would probably blunt the criticism that Mother Teresa tried pushing Christianity down people's throats. Would lend perspective to the criticism section - Pl. include the facts from the sources listed in a concise manner. --Gurubrahma 06:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Some of the websites you mentioned critisize Mother Teresa on the basis of her catholic faith (belief in transubstantiation ect.) I think it is not necessary to include that in MT's article, since protestant criticism on catholic doctrine is already covered in other articles. Gugganij 10:40, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Citizenship??

The fact that she became a naturalised citizen of India doesn't seem to find mention in the current version of the article. Also, mentioning her as an Albanian in the intro may not be very appropriate, imo. --Gurubrahma 05:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

As no response seems to be forthcoming, I've updated the intro. Please feel free to discuss the change below. --Gurubrahma 06:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Dr. Overland

Who is Dr. Overland? Is it true that MT credited him? --Slashme 06:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I just talked with a reliable historian who confirmed that MT did indeed know Dr. Overland, although he was not very famous due to his quiet nature.--Neoumlaut 06:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow, "not very famous" is putting it mildly! I can't find any reference to him on the net at all. Can someone supply some facts about him? Where did he work, where did he come from? Was he a medical doctor or a doctor of theology? --Slashme 07:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to apologize sincerely for that horrible breach of etiquette. I was simply filled with rage at the thought that someone questioned the great Dr. Overland's name. Imagine if someone claimed Ghandi was not real. This does not excuse my horrible behaivor, I would like to offer my utmost condolences to all harmed during my terrible deleting spree. --Neoumlaut 07:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The hoax is getting old, my friend. Knock it off, please. Tom Lillis 07:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear. Sir Tom Lillis, I'm afraid I do not completely understand what you are trying to say. You are saying Dr. Overland's life is a hoax? That he did not at one time exist? That he is not a real living and breathing human being, much like yourself, or Arnold Schwarzenegger? If so, I can assure you that he did indeed live and that I have met with him on several occasions. If you could be more specific about what exactly is this 'hoax' you speak of, I would greatly appreciate that. Thank you for your time. --Neoumlaut 07:18, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Slashme: Dr. Overland worked the field in Psychiatry. For roughly a decade, he was a researcher for a society affiliated with the British Museum in London. He traveled around the world doing research for the potential Museum exhibits for the British Museusm's little known "Millenium Project", which was eventually scrapped. While traveling, he did extensive work in India. That is where he briefly met MT and inspired her in such a way that she credited him with influencing her later works. Unfortunately, this is a little known fact. As a school teacher, I've been campaigning against the school board who for some reason want to deny the existence of the Doctor. Can anyone tell me why?

Thanks for that. Let me just mention that I am very polite, but only somewhat gullible. Maybe you will find more support for your worthy campaign at the Uncyclopedia. --Slashme 07:20, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You must excuse me if I come off as a little harsh, but I grow incresingly irritated at the thought of you gentlemen making a mockery of this fine man's life. I shall say this once and only once: Dr. Samual L. Overland is not a hoax or any other kind of mysterious person who does not exist! Please take your personal attacks elsewhere, this is a place where we respect other people's lives and ideas. --Neoumlaut 07:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! SAM OVERLAND IS A LIVING, BREATHING INDIVIDUAL My colleague alerted me to your utter IGNORANCE. I am astounded that those who support Dr. Overland are being treated like common criminals. This is ridiculous. We have the right to TELL THE TRUTH about Dr. Overland. --Ed seelenbacher 07:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

No doubt, you may have the right to tell about him, but you also have the responsibility to adhere to policies here on Wikipedia such as WP:V. You may want to inform your colleague also about our policy here. Thanks a ton for your efforts and have a good day. --Gurubrahma 07:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, please cite your sources. --Slashme 07:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

File:Overland.JPG

A picture I created that questions the whereabouts of Dr. Samual L. Overland.

Yes, please tell us where we can learn more about Overland and his relationship to MT. I see that user:Neoumlaut's first action was to upload this helpful picture. -Willmcw 07:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I also see that, according to his Wikipedia bio, Dr. Overland "received the Nobel Prize for Literature." Funny, but no one told the Nobel Prize committee. -Willmcw 08:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

New humanism

For some reason, she was placed in this category. However, nothing in the relevant article on New_Humanism_(Humanist_Movement) suggests that she qualifies or even that her beliefs were compatible. In fact, that article mentions that the movement had conflicts with the RCC, which pretty much rules her out. In any case, she's considering a humanitarian by many, but that's not the same thing as being a humanist.

Edited Divorce

I took the liberty of removing the link and statement claiming Mother Theresa supported Princess Diana's divorce. The website is extremely biased, and not a valid source. The only source that should be given is a direct link to the interview published BY the magazine. It is pure rubbish.Bjford 04:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

It's unlikely the interview is online to be linked to. Sites are not invalid sources, just because they disagree with your views. --Prosfilaes 05:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

That's irrelevent. I could find (or even create) any site and write an article claiming something that is absolutely false and use it as a source, but the question is, is that truthful? Absolutely not. The matter of fact is that Mother Theresa was a very faithful Catholic, and if she were to support such a divorce it would conflict with the Church's teachings. I have a very personal friendship with several friends of Mother Theresa, and they have all agreed that this statement is not only unlikely, but that if it were true it was taken out of context. So far, I have not found any article with Mother Theresa discussing divorce besides those stated by Salon.com, an extremely left-wing, anti-Catholic website. Therefore, the site is an invalid source. Until somebody provides the article to the readers of this encyclopedia, I will regard this quote as invalid. I am going to change the wording so that the viewer can understand both sides of the issue. Bjford 08:19, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Many Catholics are left-wing, so that is immaterial. Why do you describe Salon.com as "anti-Catholic"? -Willmcw 09:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Catholics cannot be socially left-wing, or they arn't Catholic, as it contradicts with Catholic theology. This is the reason why the Pope, Catholic bishops, new Catholic saints and holy people, etc. are against things like aboriton, homosexuality, and divorce; these are contrary to Catholic theology. It is possible for one to be liberal and Catholic on other issues, but if it goes against Catholic theology, then you are not Catholic. It is the doctrine of the Catholic Church that one must follow ALL of the church's teachings, not just part of them. Salon.com has posted articles that were anti-Catholic in criticizing the Pope and other Catholic leaders for their stances against abortion, homosexuality, and other social issues (which I have stated is simply Catholic theology), and their position against women priests. At any rate, I like the change on the article. I wrote that Salon was the author of the article because we had no reference to the main one, but that's fine since Wikipedia doesn't seem to source a lot of things anyway. Bjford 20:58, 25 December 2005 (UTC) 20:58, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Salon is not the author of the article; as a general rule, websites don't write well. People do; in this case, Christopher Hitches wrote the article. I treat your opinion about pro-choice Catholics not being Catholics the same way I treat the opinion that Catholics aren't Christian. It's a fine belief for believers, but non-believers are better off not getting in the middle of doctrinal disputes.--Prosfilaes 17:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Though this is really a red harring, I will provide my source on how this is true:

"It is sometimes reported that a large number of Catholics today do not adhere to the teaching of the Catholic Church on a number of questions... It has to be noted that there is a tendency on the part of some Catholics to be selective in their adherence to the Church’s moral teaching. It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the magisterium is totally compatible with being a "good Catholic," and poses no obstacle to the reception of the Sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching of the Bishops in the United States and elsewhere."

(Pope John Paul II in his speech to the Bishops in 1987)

As Pope John Paul II said supporting the infallible doctrine of the church, one CANNOT be Catholic and not accept certain aspects of the church. One must accept ALL the truth; not some of it. We can debate all we want about whether or not Catholics are Christian or not, but the fact is that one must accept ALL the doctrine of the Church to be Catholic. There are some Lutherans who have more similarities to Catholics than people who claim they are Catholic do, such as John Kerry. Does that make Lutherans Catholic? Of course not. Following your deranged logic, this seems to be your implication, though. Bjford 03:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Lutherns aren't Catholics because they don't go to Catholic churches and claim to be Catholics. If a church-going Catholic believes that the Eucharist metaphorically becomes the blood and flesh of Jesus, but the substance stays the same (in the sense used on Transubstantiation), does that make them not Catholic? Does it matter how loudly, if at all, they espouse their belief? As an outsider, I feel uninterested and ill-equipped to make such judgement, and will use Catholic as a descriptor of group status, just as someone belonging to a Boy Scout troup is a Boy Scout, even if they don't believe in God. --Prosfilaes 17:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

No, they wouldn't be Catholic. They would be following something outside of the Church's doctrine, or heresy. Of course, there are about 40 million nominal Catholics who believe that the Eucharist is only a symbol (most of which do not practice their faith), but this is mostly on account of ignorance, and thus they are not formally following heresy, as most of them believe that this is the Church's teaching or they don't know that they are supposed to believe in such. However, they are de facto non-Catholics. As much as they would like to claim they are, until they accept the truth of the church in its entirety, they are not Catholic. This does not only apply to religious faiths-- it applies to ideologies. One may consider themselves a communist, even though they believe in free enterprise and democracy. They can say what they want, but the truth of the matter is that they are not communists.

As Americans, we often confuse ideologies with factions. Allow me to explain the difference: ideologies are defined by who the individual believes in [edit]. Factions are defined by what the individual belongs to-- groups and sort. One may be ideologically conservative, but a registered democrat. But such an individual cannot be regarded as a liberal, and it would be erroneous for this person to regard himself as such. Now, the Catholicism is of course an idealology and a faction or denomination, however, this faction is based on the presupposition that this individual follows the Catholic ideology, and if the individual does not follow the Catholic ideology, than his membership is invalid. Bjford 04:04, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

As ideologies, neither communism or liberalism demand belief in a wide variety of only marginally connected beliefs, nor do they claim people as soon as they're born.--Prosfilaes 05:40, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Tempered criticism

The quality of the entry on Mother Teresa verges on the juvenile. Criticism of such a historical figure is entirely secondary in the context of an article: the primary purpose of which is to inform about her popular image and why she attained that popular image. Any criticism that is included should at the very least be tempered with a note explaining why she draws these attacks. To whit I included this short note:

“In acknowledging valid and well researched criticism of Mother Teresa, it is also very important to acknowledge the possible biases which can be the motivation for such criticism. Much will stem simply from her religion of Catholicism: India is a country home to and tolerant of many religions, but Hinduism is still supreme. Prone to a nationalistic flavour in some quarters, hostility to other religious groups has been known. And offcourse, hostility toward Catholicism and Catholic demagogues in the west is an institutionalised facet of our post reformation world. Lastly, there is an attitude of iconoclasm to popular modern (almost mythological) figures.”

I understand that it could have been better worded, but cutting it completely is hardly useful. There is naught wrong with a re-examination of the life and legacy of Mother Teresa or any other historical figure, as long as it is both tempered and clearly secondary to the main entry. Without that you may as well be writing a highschool report, regardless of how well supported and widely researched it is. OzoneO 12:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the one who cut that text out, so I should reply. First, I've moved your entry down to the bottom, which is where new stuff is normally placed.

I understand your motivation, but what you wrote just doesn't work. It's common for popular and/or controversial people to get a criticism section on Wikipedia, and the contents are often quite harsh. Of course, this isn't necessarily POV, since it can simply be a report of what specific critics have stated. Having done that, there's no need or room for editorializing. At most, what you said could fit if it were stripped down to a short and CITED summary of how her supporters respond to criticism. Alienus 13:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

My complaint with that text is that it feels like an ad hominem attack. There's a place in the world for discussion of why people are making arguments, I'm sure, but put at the end of the article it seems to dismiss all the criticsms made before, which isn't NPOV. And it's not like similar arguments can't be made for the other side; most people give people in religious jobs and celebrities the benefit of the doubt where they wouldn't other people.--Prosfilaes 21:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point. I think you hit on precisely why it seems so out of place there: it looks like a last-ditch defense by poisoning the well. Alienus

Vlach Minority

I see that an anonymous user removed the comment that her father belonged to the Vlach minority, so I reverted that edit, on the grounds that it was removing content without a reason. If this was in error, please discuss it here. --Slashme 11:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Mother Teresa was probably mostly of Albanian origin. Since her family was Roman Catholic and christian Ghegs usually are Roman Catholic. She may have had in addition to Albanian blood, Macedonian and Vlach, but most of the evidence points to her being Albanian. Imperial78

Criticisms again

I remember reading a letter sent to the Catholic church speaking out against her beatification which mentioned that the frequently made claims that she rescued people off the streer was largely not true (she rarely did) and which also mentioned a number of physical donation like ambulances were not used for their intended purposes (I believe it was claimed the ambulances were used to ferry members of her order). Does anyone know who this critic was? To me it sounds as if these should be included unless they are completely untrue Nil Einne 13:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Missionaries of Charity page

Some of the argument over Mother Thresa appears to have spilled over to the Missionaries of Charity. I feel most of the criticism section is valid but I question the merits of the response of criticism of cricitism section. I have already raises some issues on the Missionaries of Charity talk page. However there is one more issue I want to raise. Most of this section appears to be coming up with the idea that all this criticism of Missionaries of Charities stems from opposition to Mother Thresa. This may be a valid point but I feel it should be very brief and should link here. That is to say any response to criticism and theories behind the motives of critics which are related more or less exclusively to Mother Theresa should be on this page rather then the Missionaries of Charity page because they focus on the idea the critics are doing it because of Mother Theresa. Nil Einne 14:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)