User talk:Rudrasharman

Hi

Hi havent seen you for a long time, you must come back, your old hardwork has produced very good results! 59.92.193.166 (talk) 05:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Max Müller

Don't underestimate the "blog comments" how mind opening they are the moment you notice how history can be deliberately hampered to favour on party point of view. And in the case of Max Muller, I doubt his work holds no bias and it is good to let know the lame readers how the famous Max Muller who translated many Sanskrit texts into English and German was paid to mis-translate and to add information that would be deceptive.Davedawit (talk) 15:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

User:rudrasharman, Your following comment "He's parroting some blog-warrior, as usual. Though it could be of momentary interest to see which spit-flecked raving bozo it is this time." is a personal attack not in agreement with WP primciples. Please avoid personal attacks.-Bharatveer (talk) 08:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

A Chandas disambiguation page

Can you help with the Sanskrit metre article talk page situation? I have created a Chandas disambiguation page, but I don't think it is correctly done. --DThomsen8 (talk) 21:11, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply on my talk page about Sanskrit metre and for the longer remarks on the Sanskrit metre article's talk page. From those remarks, I see that the article is a complete mess, and the only remedy would be to start over. However, I know nothing about the subject beyond what I read on Wikipedia. What you could do for me is to look at the Chandas page and see if the first line is correct, or should be changed. The second line, about Chandas (typeface) is how I came into the situation as part of an effort to improve typography articles. You could take a look at that as well, but I think it is substantially correct as written. --DThomsen8 (talk) 13:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

The disambiguation page is fine, although I appreciate your point about its stylistic suboptimality. chandas actually has a cluster of related meanings, derived from a root meaning, roughly, "(making a) pleasing rhythm". Thus, it has been used to refer to

1. Vedic verses themselves (i.e. as a synonym for "verse")
2. Vedic metres (numbering 3 or 7 or 8, depending on source)
3. The language of Vedic poetry, esp. Rgvedic. Panini used chandasi (a locative form of the word) in this technical sense to indicate Vedic usage and language, in contrast to Classical.
4. The study of metre as a Vedanga

In all, I'd say the last one (as you have it on the dab page) is best because it is a formal definition of sorts, whereas the others are ostensive in nature. rudra (talk) 18:50, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Astrology

Rudra, I find your point that Vedanga Jyotisha is astronomy, not astrology, difficult to accept. For the purposes of antiquity (in Mesopotamia as well as in India), there is simply no difference between the two by conception. If you use astronomy to identify "auspicious days for sacrifice", that's astrology by any other name. I realize that Vedanga Jyotisha has very little to do with Greek-derived astrology of the Mauryan period and classical India, but then Babylonian astrology, especially of the Old Babylonian period, has very little to do with Roman era -- let alone modern -- astrology and it's still astrology.

I am also uncomfortable with the claim that there was "no astrology" in the Vedic period. I would like to know who made such a sweeping statement. I agree that astrology is of comaratively little concern in Vedic texts, but that might as soon just be due to the nature and scope of the texts we have. --dab (𒁳) 14:32, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

The basic point is that ever since the Mesoptamian/Greek synthesis, astrology (and jyotisha) has come to mean horoscopy (i.e. as the principal sense). The older astrology was much more calendar-oriented in nature. The big difference is planets. The VJ doesn't have them, so their "influence" (a HUGE deal in modern astrology) didn't even exist. (So "no astrology in Vedic times" = "no astrology in the usual modern sense in vedic times".) I just don't like the idea of encouraging anachronistic expectations of what jyotisha really meant, and involved, in Vedic times. rudra (talk) 14:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, btw, Pingree 1981 treats the VJ in the chapter on astronomy. Quote (p.9): "The literature on astronomy in Sanskrit is headed by the Jyotiṣavedāńga". (On p.8, he notes that horoscopy didn't interest the astronomers until the 2nd CE or so.) rudra (talk) 15:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I realize that this is what you intend to say, but it isn't what you are saying. If you mean to say "no horoscopy", you should say "no horoscopy", not "no astrology". The point that needs to be made is that for all dates prior to AD 1500 or so, astrology=astronomy.

I also appreciate your best intention of counterpunching against the Indian gremlins. Only, you may be counterpunching too much in this case. I suggest we make this about horoscopy specifically instead of the artificial "astrology" question. --dab (𒁳) 15:38, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes, but the average reader of WP, unless specifically clued in otherwise, is still going to read "astrology" and understand "horoscopy". Consequently, to tell him "the VJ is a text of astrology" and expect him to grasp that some archaic sense of astrology (= astronomy) is meant, simply doesn't cut the mustard, IMHO. It is more accurate, historically and semantically -- and easier on the average Joe's brain cells -- to tell him "the VJ is a text of astronomy" (= astrology "back then, if you're interested enough to find out"). If this leads him to think that the vedics had telescopes, I give up. rudra (talk) 15:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Sanskrit metre

I un-redirected the talk page. Hope you don't mind. --Aryaman (talk) 05:00, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Avatar

Hi Rudra, if you have a moment to look at the Avatar article it would be helpful, particularly the Etymology and meaning section. It's been improved quite a bit, but could use a more authoritative view. Good to see you back here (at least from a respectable distance so far :-) ) Priyanath ^talk 19:24, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Gayatri Mantra

Hi Rudra, Just wanted to express a teeny concern about what I perceive as WP:OWN concerns for recent edits on this. Can you clarify the "aghihotra rite" reference you used for a deletion, as well as your reinsertion of the "word by word translation" of Griffith attributed to M-W (presumably the dictionary?) - it may be true but is somewhat O/Rish. Thanks for the other guidance, particularly the Jan Gonda ref. Annette46 (talk) 06:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Please ignore the agnihotra comment, it isn't really relevant and shouldn't have been there. As for the word-by-word translation, I think dab's reason is well taken. The basic problem (on which Gonda, btw, expands quite a bit) is that "interpretations" of the GM are legion. In such a situation it becomes necessary to include a literal translation, for the benefit of the reader who in general will not be interested in the details of the sectarian disputes and whatnot underlying the differing interpretations. There is nothing OR-ish about literal renderings that can be verified from a well-established dictionary. rudra (talk) 05:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Acknowledgment

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		For consistently standing up for quality content and sources in some notably POV-warrior infested areas of wikipedia. More personally, a thanks for all that I have learned from your talk page and article contributions over the years. Abecedare (talk) 13:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much. I appreciate it. rudra (talk) 14:37, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

RD

In case you can shed some light on this. 220.227.207.32 (talk) 04:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Probably not, sorry! I freely admit my ignorance when it comes to Art. All I know is that these are sculpture motifs seen in temples. I'd love to find a good online resource myself! rudra (talk) 04:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia

Why are you editing Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia to mislead people into thinking that R1a1 in India is indicative of the false Aryan Invasion Theory while ignoring the consensus on Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) (that all the evidence points to a South Asian origin)? I'm starting to think your intention may be less than good faith. GSMR (talk) 07:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Your sequence of 31 consecutive edits (so far) on the Talk page was fascinating. rudra (talk) 08:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Not as much as your attempt to push forward the long-debunked Aryan Invasion Theory. Each of the sources I added are used on the article Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) to state the exact same thing I added there. GSMR (talk) 14:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Tell me that you're a "science student" (with, naturally, little grasp of statistics and none at all of either the forensic sciences or the humanities) and the picture will be complete. rudra (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

WQA

Hello, Rudrasharman. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. GSMR (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Varshney

Since you appear to be a skilled editor, may I suggest you look at Varshney? I think that it should be split, creating a separate article on Shri Akrur Ji Maharaj, but I do not know enough about reliable sources on India or Hinduism to do this. - Fayenatic (talk) 00:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Genetics and archaeogenetics of South Asia

I have made some recent edits on this page. I find the article (as you said on its Talk) to be a complete cock-up and look forward to observing how you deal with my edits (ie. if they are still in place by the time you read this). Annette46 (talk) 17:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why I'm supposed to "deal" with your edits. Who sent for me, and who sent for you? I get the impression that you're challenging me in some way. If so, then the desire for confrontation would be yours alone: I have no interest. rudra (talk) 13:55, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Wendy Doniger

Yes, I agree that Doniger is not a politician but I believe that this is not handled in a fair way. Contrast this with an article on the controversial Catholic theologian, Mary Daly; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Daly#Controversy_and_criticism Can Goethan and you write something like that? I will reintroduce my introduction, and you can rewrite it in a similar style like the Mary Daly article? Raj2004 (talk) 12:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but WP:OTHERCRAP is not a valid argument. Right now, there is a RfC on BLPs: the issue of "criticism" sections at all will be resolved, hopefully. I'd suggest waiting for the outcome before pressing any case you think you can make. rudra (talk) 12:37, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

This is not crap when there are references to NY Times, an academic journal and a book. It is you who are biased; you are just as bad as the right wing Hindu nationalists Raj2004 (talk) 12:50, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

ahem, "references to NY Times, an academic journal and a book"?

• the "academic journal" by an incredible coincidence is, of course, the very person for whom peer review has been waived at JEIS out of a "sense of fair play". This is already given attention far beyond its due at the Out of India article. Kazanas is also described as "a Greek Indologist" when he is no such thing. He is a Greek Yoga teacher who has allegedly once given basic tutorship in Sanskrit courses.
• "At a public lecture in London, she once had an egg thrown at her" (Globe and Mail). How very condemning deconstuction of her academic work. This sheds an entirely new light on her opus. NOT.
• "a book": A place at the multicultural table: the development of an American Hinduism: " in response to pressure from conservative Hindu political activists, Microsoft excised an article she wrote for the Encarta encyclopedia". This may in fact be worth mentioning, but I suppose it would belong under Hinduism in the United States, illustrating how US Hinduism is suverted by conservative fundamentalists.
• "Pankaj Mishra, a columnist for the New York Times, writes that her chapter on the Mahabharata is particularly insightful, highlights the tragic aspects of the epic and unravels a cliche that Hindus are pacifist" -- ok as such but why should are academic bio articles include random quotes from newspaper columnists? If the book under discussion meets WP:BK, it may be arguable to quote that in the book's article.

the problem here is that criticism of Doniger's work is represented as centered around the attacks by Hindu fundamentalists. This is WP:UNDUE. Hindu fundamentalism in the US is certainly a topic worth discussing. If Raj2004 is interested in that, I invite him to create a section at Hinduism in the United States, and perhaps have a section redirect Hindu fundamentalism in the United States to that section. Detach it from Doniger and address the actual issue, the growth of a subculture of the Hindu religious right in the US. Doniger will be just one item mentioned in such a discussion. --dab (𒁳) 17:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem with the article is that both sides "know" what they want the article to say, and are going about searching for quotes they can use to nominally satisfy verifiability. This is a recipe for bad organization and content; imagine if every biography article was based on the formula:

"5 most hagiographic statements on the subject" + "5 most inflammatory denunciations of the subject" = NPOV

(unfortunately, on wikipedia this doesn't take much imagination!). What's lost in such quote-mining is the sober middle, where scholarly and fair-minded criticism of WD's approach and interpretation probably lie. Till someone, both neutral and interested enough in the subject, makes the effort to summarize that middle, the problems with the article are sure to persist. (Of course, there is also the problem that "published" sources may not reflect commonly held opinion of WD, even among scholars, but that's a issue we cannot correct on wikipedia). C'est la vie. Abecedare (talk) 18:19, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Abecedare's points are well-taken. I think that was went wrong in the Doniger article. I wish I was more of an expert on Doniger to make a true scholarly and fair minded criticism. Raj2004 (talk) 18:32, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I found your comments on the egg incident as being blown out of proportions very compelling, and when I checked it up, was surprised to find it in this book (review)! Good observation. --TheMandarin (talk) 10:10, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Karma in Hinduism

Thanks for your edit. I did not write that but someone else. Raj2004 (talk) 14:08, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

You should try to be a little less defensive. That said, your replacement has led me to seriously reconsider Yuvraj Krishan's scholarship. The chapter of that excerpt is appalling, shockingly bad, made all the worse by citing Keith and Oldenberg without any indication of having actually read them. The fact that Krishan does not discuss the extensive literature on the subject disqualifies his sound-bite as a summary of the academic consensus (which happens to be the opposite view, btw). It's cherry picking, just like the nonsense I deleted. rudra (talk) 00:20, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed commentary. I agree that is his view and that's why I stated that he said it. I think that the transmigration theory was not well-developed in the Vedas, contrary to what he said. Raj2004 (talk) 12:35, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

But what makes him such a superstar expert that you invoke him, by name no less, in the lede? In short, you are cherry-picking, just like him. WP:UNDUE, at the very least. And if you're still having trouble grasping the point, consider this: Suppose we replaced the quoting of Krishan with something like this: "According to Keith there is no evidence of transmigration in the Rgveda". Would you suddenly find yourself objecting? Do you see why it's wrong to have any statement of this kind in the lede? Why are you trying to make exceptions for POV-pushing that you approve of? rudra (talk) 12:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I understand and not pushing a point of view. Well, should we remove Krishnan's name entirely and leave it to this statement, that there is no evidence of transmigration in the Rg Veda, if this is the overall scholarly consensus? Please remove if you think Krishnan is totally wrong. I am not an expert in this field. Raj2004 (talk) 13:27, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

By now, after full five years of watchlisting various Hindu topics, I must resignedly say that there is no "shockingly bad scholarship" in the context of India any more, for me. I don't know what is wrong with the country, but 'reams and reams of undiluted rubbish' appears to be the standard gauge for any text, somehow the written word appears to have a prestige attached to it just because it is written, no further sort of quality control is even conceivable. All we can do is keep waiting for the "shockingly good" that may or may not turn up occasionally. --dab (𒁳) 17:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Rudra, replying to your message on my talk page:

• About the content issue: As I see it, the issue is pretty simple to handle by minor tweaking of language. In the lede the article can reflect the consensus view in some deliberately broad language, i.e., there is no discussion/elucidation (as opposed to "mention") of transmigration of souls in Vedic texts, while the body can add the caveat that some (like Krishnan), interpret a few verses of RV to be hinting at the concept. Of course, the exact language can be discussed further, but this shouldn't be a sticking point.
• About ownership issues: as Raj2004 and I briefly discussed here, he has almost single-handedly been working on the article, but that is not necessarily by choice; rather it's a reflection of how few editors are involved in developing core Hinduism articles (most, including me frequently, are often distracted by silly POV battles at some topics of relatively minor interest). In any case, while Raj and I have differed on some sourcing issues, I haven't found him to be one of the POV pushers, and source based discussion with Raj (in contrast to the doctrinaire editors) are fruitful.

In short, I think your input to the article will be both valuable and valued, and this is an article where collaboration is useful and possible. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 18:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Poor scholarship in Indian references

I agree with your points and Dab's points. In fact, I find that Professor Pandey in his book, Encylopedia of Indian Philosophy appeared to take excerpts from the Wikipedia article and pasted it in his book; I was checking Google Books and note that whole excerpts from my wikipedia article on Karma in Hinduism were published in Vraj Kumar Pandey 's Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophy, pg. 33 See, http://books.google.com/books?cd=1&q=swami+sivananda+karma+vraj+kumar+pandey&btnG=Search+Books Did Professor Pandey acknowledge in a footnote in his book, Wikipedia? S

I changed one of the references to Thirugnana Sambanthar in the current article, since the referenced 2004 web link was dead, and Mr. Pandey seemed to have copied my article anyway. Indeed, the earliest versions of the article with reference to Swami Sivananda, with reference to karma was made in 2004 way prior to the 2007 publication of Professor Pandey: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Karma_in_Hinduism&oldid=8711064 I hope that he referenced Wikipedia or otherwise this may be a case for plagiarism. The Google snippet was a limited preview so I don't know whether he referenced wikipedia.

But the surprising thing is that the publisher is Motilal Banarsidass, which I think is a well-respected publisher.

Raj2004 (talk) 18:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Correction. The publisher is Anmol Publications, not Motilal Banarsidass. I am not sure if Pandey is a professor. Thanks, Raj2004 (talk) 22:48, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Ownership

Rudra, please feel free to criticize. I welcome your input, as I am not an expert in the field. As Abecedere said, I am not a POV pusher, although we may disagree on sourcing issues, which I have now begun to understand better, after discussion with him, you and Dab. I hope that you did not misunderstand my comments. Raj2004 (talk) 18:27, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Influence of Planets

I agree with your edits relating Shani but many Hindus believe that planets are tied with past karma. What do you think? Raj2004 (talk) 12:14, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

i agree wih dab:) rudra (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

You guys are correct. I am trying to find a serious academic resource, but unfortunately, in this realm, I have not yet found a serious academic source. Raj2004 (talk) 13:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I found one academic text. Please take a look at these edits. Thanks for your time. Raj2004 (talk) 00:01, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to cmt here, but found it irresistible. I think the plantes are having a bad influence on Raj2004 and Shani has cast his spell on Raj2004 ... which is preventing him from getting several "serious academic resource" and causing all these problems. LOL, feel free to revert this comment . --TheMandarin (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Raj2004 has convinced me that I need to stay as far away as possible from Karma in Hinduism for the sake of my blood pressure and sanity. rudra (talk) 16:02, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

The planets are not affecting me. But some Hindus do believe that ups and downs in life are linked to planetary influences, which they believe are tied to past karma. You can criticize the academic source, that's okay, but nothing is wrong with me. Thank you. Raj2004 (talk) 21:17, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

EasyRead Large Bold edition

I am struck with "EasyRead Large Bold" edition of the book, Race, Nation, & Empire in American History by James T. Campbell which gives a fairly balanced and scholarly treatment [1], if you have can lay hands on the original edition, fix the page nos., Thanks. --TheMandarin (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the author is Prema Kurien, who has published a couple of papers before this, covering roughly the same ground, as well as having recently published a book of her own. (Try searching for "tipping point": that should take you to the critical section.) But wikilawyers will gobble this up. They will insist on multiple confirmations ("one isolated scholar isn't enough" - WP:RS rules are so convoluted, it's all a matter of convincing the gallery, really, we only play at objectivity on WP.) rudra (talk) 15:47, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I just saw your edits on Rajiv Malhotra. To clarify, Campbell is not an author of Race, Nation & Empire, he is one of the editors. The book is a collection of essays. Right now I'm wondering about the extent of overlap between Kurien's essay in this book and the material in her own book. (Retreading one's material is an all too common nasty habit among modern academics.) rudra (talk) 16:00, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for this goof up, I will fix it up later. I think multiple confirmation can be achieved, for ex : Sharma, Arvind (Spring 2004). "Hindus and Scholars". RELIGION IN THE NEWS. 7 (1). trincoll.edu. or for instance this one (ironically found on WD's talk page) and possibly this one ( only saw tantalizing snippets ), this also. Sort of looks fine now, taking a break from editing this article... --TheMandarin (talk) 16:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Sivalinga as phallus

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REGARDING SARASWATI RIVER

hi mr rudra,i want to ask you that why you are deleting my reference in mahabharata in post vedic section of sarasvati river article,i have given true reference for them 1.Accoring to sabha parva of mahabharata(2.29.8) it is mentioned that "nakul conquered the sudra and abhir who lived at the bank of saraswati near sindhu(indus). 2.it is mentioned that "king matinar performed yagya(sacrifice)in Fire altars at the bank of saraswati riverAt Kalibangan which is along the dried up channel of Ghaggar-Hakra River,fire Vedi (altar)s have been discovered, similar to those found at Lothal which could have served no other purpose than a ritualistic one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.160.178.38 (talk) 18:00, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

BIMARU

Thanks,i searched and found that article ,missed to changed dubious claims.thanks for doing that. Alokprasad (talk) 12:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

R1a page

For more or less technical reasons, I am on a Wikibreak for the next month or so. Until I can get my online resource archives back online I am reluctant to edit the article.PB666 ^yap 21:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

8,800 verses claim in "jaya"

there in nothing mention in mahabharata regarding this,the source that have you given does not tell about this.As i see in Kisari Mohan Ganguli version on scared texts "Vyasa executed the compilation of the Bharata, exclusive of the episodes originally in twenty-four thousand verses; and so much only is called by the learned as the Bharata. Afterwards, he composed an epitome in one hundred and fifty verses, consisting of the introduction with the chapter of contents. This he first taught to his son Suka; and afterwards he gave it to others of his disciples who were possessed of the same qualifications. After that he executed another compilation, consisting of six hundred thousand verses. Of those, thirty hundred thousand are known in the world of the Devas; fifteen hundred thousand in the world of the Pitris: fourteen hundred thousand among the Gandharvas, and one hundred thousand in the regions of mankind. Narada recited them to the Devas, Devala to the Pitris, and Suka published them to the Gandharvas, Yakshas, and Rakshasas: and in this world they were recited by Vaisampayana, one of the disciples of Vyasa, a man of just principles and the first among all those acquainted with the Vedas. Know that I, Sauti, have also repeated one hundred thousand verses".[1]there is no mentioning about jaya having 8800 verses in it. Now as u mention Mahabharata (shlokas 81, 101-102),then it is not present in Critical Edition of the Mahabharata by Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune,most authentic version of mahabharata.However in gita press gorakhpur version A verse like this has been given,but its transalation given by you is wrong.Vyas actually said that there are 8800 secret verses out of 100,000 in mahabharata,which actual meaning is only known to him,sukha and sanjy.

can there is no answer to my question then what is the advantage of this discussion,i asked about jaya 8800 verse claim but no body answered,this shows a poor response activity from wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.240.35.192 (talk) 20:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

i watched the source that is mentioned now,in this source old version of mahabharata is used,there is no verse present in mahabharata that talk about 8800 verses claim in it,u can simply check it in any famous version like-Critical Edition of Mahabharata by Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute[4]and SP Gupta and KS Ramachandran are not a very reknowned scholar the source which he have cited is also critical edition of bhandarkar institute,but i have 100 percent sure that no such claim has been done in Critical Edition of Mahabharata[5]. so i request you to remove this claim,or give me that verse claiming 8800 verse claim in any edition of mahabharata present now,i have already searched critical edition,ganguly edition,and also in wikipedia sanskrit text source.i am sure this verse is not present in any edition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.240.54.72 (talk) 09:17, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Please review Wikipedia policy on sources and the full Verifiability policy, especially the distinction between verifiability and truth. What the Mahabharata itself has is irrelevant, except when we quote directly from it. This is because the Mahabharata is a primary source. On Wikipedia, we rely on what secondary and tertiary sources say about the Mahabharata. The text in the Wikipedia article (apparently with a citation of ślokas in the MB) was an edit accident, a relic of an older version that was based on nonsense in one of Subhash Kak's books. If you have a source which discusses the issue, please bring it up on the talk page. Meanwhile, you are wasting everyone's time, including your own, by focusing on what is or is not to be found in the Mahabharata. Because, to repeat, that is not the point. The point is what various experts have written about the MB, as that is what we base Wikipedia articles on. rudra (talk) 12:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Thnks for your response,if u want secondry source then u can read a book "THE MAHABHARATA A CRITICISM" by C. V. VAIDYA, M.A., LL.B[2],--115.240.73.170 (talk) 17:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Rudrasharman. In line with the parallel discussion going on on my talk page at User talk:Mitsube#8,800 verses claim in "jaya", can you give us the quote from the secondary source and let that be the end of it? Thanks, Mitsube (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Mitsube (talk) 04:18, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

If you want a source that contadicts 8800 verse claim,then u can read J. L. Brockington book on sanskrit epic[3] already given by Abecedare --115.240.86.179 (talk) 05:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

In newworld encyclopedia this caim has not been done however 24000 verses as a core portion is accepted.THey have also removed this 8800 verse claim.see [4],i think if you want to keep this claim behalf of some secondry article,then you should represent it as "At least three redactions of the text are recognized by some scholars",instead of "At least three redactions of the text are recognized".so that everybody may understand it is a scholar opinion,not a true fact in mahabharata itself.it will resolve the whole discussion.because it is represented with the facts that are saying about claims present in mahabharata.And finally i will respect your decision.--115.240.69.242 (talk) 13:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

What the New World Encyclopedia people (Unification Church of Rev. Moon) do with Wikipedia content is their own business. Please discuss this and other related matters on the Talk:Mahabharata page - spreading discussion over various talk pages is not useful. Thank you. rudra (talk) 13:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

O.K. i was not aware of new encylopedia,i think it was by learned scholars from wikipedia,i will try to search some reliable articles regarding 8800 verse claim.i have created a user account on wikipedia on suggesion of Abecedare due to communication problem due to different ip adresses,because i work on a shared network.Thank you for your polite responce--Mayurasia (talk) 17:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC) Hi,rudra! i finally got source which contradicts 8800 verse claim,see Brockington contradicts it in his article,now it should not be problem to remove this fake 8800 verse claim misinterpolated by some poor indian scholars in mahabharata--Mayurasia 10:23, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Repeated removal of significant views:discrimination against Women and Shudra in Manusmṛti

Afoul of neutral POV,- Disagree

[As per NPOV policy content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.]

Manusmriti’s most controversial part is discrimination against Women and Shudra, is a significant view (references given on main article).It is been burnt and condemned by different historians and social reformers all over Indai, It is considered source of gender and caste oppression in India which still exist.[1][2][3] [4] References published by reliable sources(including preview of online books by famous authors/historians) Section created under controversies and criticism , which indicates good faith in putting this most important controversial part.

NOT including this section or significant view as a part of controversy & repeated deletion of this section/view indicates bias towards showing good an Ad like page, which violates NPOV.

No original research policy not followed: Disagree

It is not an original research. Criticism mentioned can be find out in almost all books written on Manusmariti/Ancient Indian Society, womens, (some references given on main article).

No reliable sourcing:Disagree

References of online Books by famous authors/historians given,books can be read online.

Inappropriate use of primary sources:Disagrree

Only 1 primary source(website) has been mentioned, Other references are published books from famous authors/historians references available on main page.

In the same article if you go back and check some edits about (14:58, 21 December 2005) under section Criticism of Manu Smriti, you will find the same points , now deleted by you, already there. Some people (they are not wikipedians) want to write an Advertisement page on Manusmriti (like a series on Hinduism already mentioned), hiding most controversial parts/views.

Wiki reader shall be given an opportunity to know all about Manusmriti including controversial views Such type of excuses for deletion of content produce biased Ad page not a wiki page. --Jugal (talk) 18:19, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

a minor Frawley here

N. Gopalakrishnan--117.204.91.80 (talk) 18:22, 25 February 2010 (UTC)