Talk:Straight edge

Spirituality

I think this is well said and should be kept as is:

"Some straight-edgers feel that having a clear mind is a better way to approach life and/or spirituality. They tend to be atheistic or agnostic, often believing in self-responsibility and rejecting the idea of a deity or any divine moral law. However, in many circles the lifestyle has associations with Christianity, and there were at one time a significant Hare Krishna and Mormon straight-edge movements. There are also Muslim straight-edgers, especially in Islamic countries, most notably Malaysia."

Now, there are some people with religious agenda who will try to hijack this part of the article and edit something like: "Straight-edgers tend to be christians" etc (just removed one). To me it sounds like "Heavy Metal fans tend to worship Satan", and even that would be more of a fact than above. Straight edge, as everyone knows, has it's roots in punk and anarchy movement. This has nothing to do with any organized religion. Sure, some people are religious whatever they are, but being straight edge and religious are two separate things. --Nitret 01:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

not a philosophy

A "straight edge" lifestyle is not a philosophy. Perhaps this could be expounded on. 11:28 UTC, 10 Oct 2004

real NPOV problems

There are some real NPOV problems with the straight edge page.

Perhaps you could outline them? --cprompt

The following was moved from the Minor Threat page, but is way, way too non-NPOV to be part of an article: This 'movement' was never advocated by singer Ian Mackaye, who thought of it as more the personal choices that he had made in his life than a worldwide revolution.

Unfortunately, the movement suffered from subversion in later years, with tales (not always true - as with most secondary sources) of "straightedgers" beating up people for smoking. Straight edgers - or sXer's - were characterised by black crosses on their hands, which was customary in West America underage punk shows to differentiate those allowed to buy alchohol, and those too young. It was taken on by sXer's as a subversive way of "sticking it to the man" so to speak - subverting the mainstream for their own gain.

should be mentioned

I'll see if I can find a way to gracefully put them in, but it seems like the following should be mentioned:

Ian MacKaye's later denunciation of the straight edge scene he largely spawned.
Youth of Today's role as a major 1980s straightedge hardcore band.

Delirium 19:46 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Sex is good

Most straight-edgers today do not refrain from sex; many of them are quite promiscuous (I must say I am in a minority among straight-edgers in liking the sexual abstinence aspect). In any case, I'm removing the bit about sexual abstinence from the four main points.--XmarkX 07:36, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's definitionally part of the concept, since Minor Threat coined the concept with "don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck", and I know at least a few people who consider it part of the lifestyle, so I added it back in. It seems to be somewhat of a controversy in at least some areas—some people actually consider the promiscuous people (the ones you describe) as being as bad as drug addicts (basically "sex addicts"), part of the hedonistic lifestyle that's essentially the antithesis of the straightedge lifestyle. --Delirium 06:54, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

I resally diasagree. The sex rule is ommitted by most Sxers, not just 'sometiems'. The connection between Ian MacKaye and straight edge is not that significant - MacKaye himself was not straight edge, nor was Minor Threat. Having a foundational influence on a movement does not mean that what you say dictates how the movement works. Minor Threat's songs are not an SXe bible. They are one of many influences on straight edge. Most straight-edgers are not anti-promiscuity, and to say they are on this page promotes a misconception. Many straight-edgers consider eating meat as bad as taking drugs, and many consider those who do not to be straight-edge. In contrast, I have never heard of a straight-edger who didn't consider someone straight-edge because of their sexual behaviour.

There really is a serious problem encountered by straight-edgers that so many people who are not sXe, even in punk circles, assume that straight-edgers are anti-promiscuity, or vegan or Christian. This encyclopedia should be about providing accurate information.--XmarkX 09:51, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I suppose it must depend on what circles you travel in—most sXers I know are anti-promiscuity, but not anti-meat-eating, and base much of their lifestyle on Minor Threat and a few other bands, like Youth of Today (in addition to having Minor Threat patches on their jackets and whatnot). Perhaps this differs by region? --Delirium 17:13, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, another thought I had—what age people are the ones you're talking about? The sXers I know are mostly mid-20s or older, so this might differ amongst the current teenage crowd, with whom I'm not familiar. --Delirium 17:19, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

It's true that the region I'm in, Australia, is probably not that representative. However, I'm basing my view also on the current stances of straight-edge bands and zines, from Europe and the US, which uniformly are interested in veganism and not sex. I refer you to very popular current sXe bands like Good Clean Fun and Rambo. People I am talking about range from 14 to 30, same trends among all of them.--XmarkX 01:35, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I googled and found this:

From a Minor Threat interview in Touch & Go zine: "Ian: Like Straight Edge, people have taken it to an extreme...as far

   as i'm concerned all we did was put out an idea... if people wanna 
   hear it as preaching if that's what they want.  Straight edge to me
   is someone who is alert enough to benefit from what he or she is 
   doing...

   "Lyle: the drug and alcohol is only one side of it anyway, it's alot
   more than that, there are other things that can sidetrack you...

   "Ian: That's what "don't Fuck" means... alot of people think that to 
   be straight edge you can't drink, smoke, or have sex and that's 
   silly... what the don't fuck thing is that the whole getting laid 
   and getting head thing

   "Lyle: living for sex

   "Ian: following your penis around is fucking people up more than 
   anything"

at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cultures/straight-edge-faq/section-8.html

While modern straight edgers seem to have decided that it really does mean you can't drink or smoke, a lot of them hold the same position on sex as Mackaye did. Hope that helps.

Agreed. --Nitret 17:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

sex, drugs, alcohol, they all fall into the category of material/worldly entities that an individual can become attached to. just like food. anything pleasurable can lead to any severity of attachment. given the human body's physiological reward structures, the engagement in material pleasure is something natural for the human condition. of course, some things like alcohol are not exactly "natural" because they involve extensive human synthesis... but sex certainly is. perhaps somebody actually wants to make his/her ambition to be the ABSOLUTE detachment from such worldly entities (as with, say, hinayana buddhism). but if that is not the case, they have no place presenting their anti-worldly ethos as absolute or consistent (as straightedgers often do). this is why "straightedgers" are often criticized: they claim to have a hardliner, absolute ethos behind their "movement," however their ethos is anything but absolute or consistent as long as they: have sex (or masturbate), consume "junk food," consume caffeine (BIG one among straightedgers... many of whom have developed caffeine dependency issues, though they may not see it that way since somebody "drug free" presumably cannot become "drug addicted")...

Straight Edge is more of a Counterculture rather a Subculture

Straight Edge is more of a Counterculture than Subculture.

Counterculture is defined as - group's values and norms placed in opposition to the dominant culture. Subculture is defined as - a world within a larger world of the dominant culture. Each subculture has a disctinctive view.

But when Values and norms are in opposition to the mainstream values and norms it falls more into the Counterculture.

- A friendly Sociologist

Agreed. I don't think straight edge would have even existed had punk not generally condoned all of the things that sXe rejects now. --BDD 14:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rise Against

Authough they have straight edge members one of them is not therefore they're not relaly a straight edge band, maybe they should be removed?

Anyone see the irony...

In a picture of someone with "Straight Edge" tattooed on their wrist?

I thought one part of being straight edge, at least in the circles I've been exposed to, was to not harm your body, and therefor, tattooing isn't really considered something "straight edge" people do.

This is a case of reading too much into it. Not drinking or doing drugs doesn't have anything to do with "not harming your body" - it more about thinking straight and thus tattos have nothing to do with it. Sean Bonner 02:42, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Straight edge, for most, is about abstinence and self-discipline, what is and isn't straight edge is generally decided by the general consensus of straight edge kids, so considering 50% of straight edge kids have tattoos of some form, i'd say it is stil straight edge to have tattoos - Xsharksx 23:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't see why tattoos should be considered harming one's body. Tuf-Kat 00:43, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

I can see this point, but I have never actually heard of it being part of someone's edge - I am the only straight-edger I have ever met who has no tattoos. For most people tattoos are part of being sxe - I suspect you're confusing us with hard-line.--XmarkX 05:08, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't have any tattoos either --Xsharksx 12:38, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have no tatttoos either. I in fact know of no sXer's in my community that have them. It's just personal choice.

Straight Edge is a movement against things that destroy lives/scenes/families/communities e.g. drugs, alcohol, lechery - it is not some new-age body purity diet! Those that adhere to the Straight Edge ideology can get tattoos and take aspirin when their heads hurt. Likewise, veganism has no part in Straight Edge - No one kills/fights/dies/tears apoart families and scenes because they ate meat, took tylenol, or got a tattoo. Please use your heads here and try to understand the really REALLY simple fucking ELEMENTARY reason behind Straight Edge. Sean Bonner said it exactly right: "Not drinking or doing drugs doesn't have anything to do with "not harming your body" - it more about thinking straight and thus tattos have nothing to do with it."

I want to extend on this irony-point: More than the thing about the tatoo - I am totally astounded that a movement who apperently recommend sexual restraint would use signs as 'XXX' and 'sXe', as the first of course is the videly used sign for pornographic content and the second, as the article says, easily could be pronounced "sexy". This sounds incredible bizar to me! --83.92.21.245 22:01, 31 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's ironic, but I think it's more amusing-ironic than anything else. Although there are lots of stories about non-edgers thinking someone is stuck-up because their shirt says 'sXe'. Afee 23:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Youth?

Isn't it the case that the majority of the members of the straight edge subculture are young people? Isn't this fundamentally a youth movement? Of course, like any group without central authority, I am sure there are old(er) straight edge people, but aren't the vast majority people in their teens and twenties? Should this be mentioned in the article? I would add it myself, but for all I know the majority of straight edge people are 60-year-old punk fans... (somehow I doubt it) Nohat 08:30, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but only because most people "break the edge" once they get older ("sXe till 21!!" is usually joked about). Through a message board I frequented I knew of a 30-something straight edge guy. --macaddct1984 12:36, 3 March 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if encountering a straight edge person who is over 30 is considered a rarity, then I definitely think it's fair to say that this is a youth-oriented subculture. I've added this to the article. Nohat 18:40, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm 30 and still striaght edge, and have many friends who are 30+ and still straight edge. I don't think that's odd at all. What would be odd would be for someone who was 30 to become straight edge. I think it's definitely something that takes hold in youth but isn't limited to that. If that makes any sense. Sean Bonner 02:34, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Straight edge is as much youth oriented as any other subculture, similar to punk movement. I personally wouldn't mention any age relation. You really shouldn't draw any hasty generalizations from your acquaintances. And if so, most edgers i know are 25 to 35 years of age, including myself. --Nitret 23:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism

I think we ought to have a section for criticism or controversy. (I've joked with friends that every article on Wikipedia needs a "Controversy" section just because so many already do, but that's beside the point. :) ) Obviously, straight edge is not something that every one can agree on, and there is criticism. Many people I know, and I would count myself among them, follow many or all of the straight edge tenets but informally - i.e. if we ever did smoke or have loveless sex, we wouldn't necessarily beat ourselves up (pardon the pun) about it. I have also seen the movement criticized on the grounds that it is a label that is best rejected in favor of the aforementioned informal following. I have to say I agree with most of that, and it seems like MacKaye probably would for the most part too. Thoughts? --BDD 14:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree, but I'm too lazy myself. I feel the same way as you when it comes to the whole informal sXe thing. I don't drink (I think alcohol tastes gross), smoke, or do drugs, mainly because I don't want to be addicted to something harmful. I don't have a problem with things in moderation though, so I couldn't call myself sXe. Furthermore, I wouldn't because I get the feeling that a lot (but not all) sXe's are moralistic and clingy to the sXe ideas. I love the line from propaghandi's song Back to the Motor League, "wieners drunk on straight edge". Anyway, if anyone can eloquently put some criticism in, that would be great.

removal of "Deadhead" lyrics.

I took them out for two reasons:

1) They're not really relevant to sXe; the song attacks the band and the fans but never explicitly advocates the straight-edge lifestyle. (besides, just becasue someone is a deadhead doesn't mean the smoke up and get drunk - there are "clean" deadheads.)

2) Ian MacKaye didn't write those lyrics, Nathan Strejeck did. Perhaps the heading could be re-named "Influential Early sXe Lyrics" instead of "Influential Early MacKaye Lyrics" to incorporate more bands' lyrics?

political beliefs

I think this article could do a more expansive job of covering the political beliefs/orientation of straight edgers. The article mentions the ecology movement and the Animal Liberation Front; are a significant percentage of straight edgers supporters of those groups? Can we assume that as a group they have left wing views (marxism, anarchism)? Or perhaps they are more in tune with the right wing philosophy of libertarianism? If they are a genuine counterculture which stands in opposition to certain aspects of the status quo, then can we assume that this opposition extends into the political sphere as well? If any of the straight edgers browsing/working on this article have some info on these questions then I think it should be added. - Anon

I think the current "Although straight-edgers do not necessarily identify with a particular worldview on social or political issues, many do subscribe to precepts associated with anarchism, vegetarianism, socialism, veganism, environmentalism and the ecology movement." is really enough and in fact worth mentioning. However i think it would be far-fetched to go any further since it easily could end up with stereotyping. Nitret 00:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with Nitret because straight edge has been associated with as much from the left as from the right. In fact depending on what part of the country/word you are in the views of what straight edge is or isn't are vastly different when it comes to politics. Sean Bonner 02:37, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

sXe or SXE

I have told the first is correct Paul foord 4 July 2005 13:16 (UTC)

There's no right or wrong on this. sXe, SxE and SXE are used all the time interchangably. Sean Bonner 02:40, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

OMG Clothing & "backlash"

The following excerpt from the article is meaningless and stupid. The shirt is not an attack or "backlash" against straight edge in any way. This should be removed. "As one example, on the submit-and-publish T-shirt website OMG Clothing, one phrase that can be seen is "Straight-edge girls are SXE."" 9-29-2005

Further, i think it should be noted that much of the negativity including the "gang" status in utah is a result of the hard-liners, not the straight edgers, though the line between the two gets a little blurry depending on POV Dreamer.redeemer 03:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

hardline is the same thing as sXe they just take it to a differnt level, its kinda like veganism some sXe kids are vegans but its not a part of it. They just take there body and anything harmful to it very seriously, trust me im friends with them.