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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bwilreker (talk | contribs) at 13:19, 30 March 2010. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Deletion

The page needs to be cleaned up and organized and then will be able to be assessed properly. Right now it is jumbled. I say it needs modification, but not deletion yet Logan brennan (talk) 19:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


What Wikipedia policy is this page violating?--98.114.134.238 (talk) 15:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOT#NEWS. Ironholds (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you are saying that an alleged hate group/Christian Militia active in a liberal northern state is not noteworthy? Evidently you would be wrong because the raid/raids have been plastered all over the networks news programs. Someone thinks that they are a "Clear and present danger to the national security of the United States." Yes, I do realize that "national security" could be twisted into any meaning.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Try here [1] for 47,000 hits.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:32, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See Christian Patriot movement--Degen Earthfast (talk) 15:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moving past the humour of anywhere in America being called liberal, actually read WP:NOT#NEWS. Google hits after a news story strikes? Irrelevant. Lots of news sources over a short period? Irrelevant. Ironholds (talk) 15:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You would be wrong of course, the Google hits merely prove how wrong you are. 47.000 to you.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 16:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "Liberalness" of Michigan is highly debatable. It clearly misses the reality of Michigan and its actual political culture. The Michigan State Senate is Republican controlled, we have a Republican Attorney General who is among those sueing over federal health care, and Stupak is not easily described simply as "liberal". I would advise avoiding such simplistic descriptions of anything.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I scarcely think it matters much (or at all), within the context of this article, I think its clear that Michigan is a sort "swing state," that leans somewhat to the Democrats in Presidential elections, but where the Republican Party, and conservatives & rightists generally, retain substantial power. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Point 1 against deletion. WP:NOT#NEWS relates to news events, but the subject of this article is an organization. Borrowing words from WP:ORG here, this organization is now noteworthy because it has become the subject of international coverage by multiple reliable, independent sources. Point 2 against deletion. Even if you disagree with point 1 and want this to be a news event, then per WP:EVENT, it was nominated for deletion much too soon. Articles about breaking news events should not be nominated for several days, to allow time for a clearer picture of the notability of the event to emerge. This article was created less than a day ago. MetaEd (talk) 22:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tentative keep: since the article is here and growing slowly but surely, let's see how things unfold over the coming days. There's plenty of time to delete or merge it if it proves not to warrant a separate article.--Witan (talk) 03:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tentative keep: The Hutarees are presently getting broad-ranging nation-wide news coverage. According to the notability guidelines, "An event is presumed to be notable if it receives significant, non-routine coverage that persists over a period of time." I think it's too soon to talk about persistence, but it certainly is not beyond the pale of possibility. Bwilreker (talk) 13:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: This is a big deal and may be a starting point for the war on right-wing extremism. There is a trend and with the growth of militias like these, we should see more news coverage and future stories that cite this group. PartyJoe (talk) 05:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: It is ridiculous to propose this isn't relevant encyclopedic material. These arrests are rather significant in the history of domestic terrorism in the U.S. in the early 21st Century, and somebody over with Wikiproject Terrorism should come by and clean it up a bit. This is certainly as relevant as the page on the Nigerian Christmas 2009 bomber, an FA and another failed terrorist plot. The deletion of this article would be a disservice to the Wikipedia community and would indicate a flaw in Wikipedia's deletion process.Neumannk (talk) 06:23, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: This article is as important and relevant as the Heaven's Gate one would have been on this date 13 years ago. Stroller (talk) 07:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hutaree may be significant

The recent action by law enforcement against the militia Hutaree is likely to make this group historically significant. This could be the opening of a major anti-militia effort by the FBI; it may not be just a flash-in-the-pan news topic. Downtown dan seattle (talk) 03:22, 29 March 2010 (UTC)downtown_dan_seattle 03:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But there's no way to tell that. If there is evidence of actual significance, show some. If there isn't, we're not a newspaper. Ironholds (talk) 03:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is nothing like the crystal ball rule. It's not conjecture about things that will exist in the future. The group is already significant--it's part of a headline article on the New York Times. It shouldn't be deleted.131.96.91.96 (talk) 21:02, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I linked this to the Michigan Militia page; whether or not this particular group has any longevity, an encyclopedic treatment of these events belongs in that page. Edward Vielmetti (talk) 11:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually there is no clear evidence that this is linked to the Michigan Militia. Mr. Vielmetti, if you actually went and read that page you would see it is about a specific organization, and until you provide evidence linking Hutaree to it, you are making false conclusions. Just because a militia organizations is headquartered in Michigan does not mean it is at all affiliated with the Michigan Militia.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably actually more important to note that in response to this incident, the Michigan Militia has stated that they are not associated with this group in any way and has condemned the use of violence against elected officials and LEOs [2][3].Dysperdis (talk) 23:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The group is being targeted by the FBI and several news reports have been about them. I think that this does qualify as notable. And yes they are terrorists. -Kylelovesyou (talk) 02:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps they aspired to be terrorists (that is all allegation, of course; they remain innocent until proven guilty - the government has of yet provided no real evidence of any substantive illegality on their part - it merely claims they intended to kill police officers, which may or may not be an accurate claim), but genuine terrorists would seem to be people who have committed acts of terrorism, not merely people who (perhaps) desired to commit acts of terrorism, but who were prevented from ever doing so (assuming they ever actually so intended). KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keven, while your definition of what group is or is not a terrorist group does make sense, is it the one that is actually used in wikipedia and news reports? Is Jihad Jane described as a terrorist? What about other alleged Islamic groups that were broken up in the US? Back to the Michigan Militia issue, the article on that group suggests that it broke up into several groups in the late 1990s. It does seem that there is a lot of unknown factors. However, as with groups like Bash Back on the left, these right-wing, Christian groups have Anarchist tendencies, and at heart anarchists dis-like organization, so they often are not so they tend towards very small cells which often have little or no connection with any larger organization.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:21, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do know, from past experience with working to create (and then watching it get deleted) a Template on American Domestic Terrorism, that Wikipedia is extremely reluctant to describe any living individual as "a terrorist." There is apparently genuine concern as per civil liability. Nowhere in the article about the woman referred to as "Jihad Jane" is it ever clearly stated that she is a terrorist (although it could be interpreted as having been implied in a couple of instances). KevinOKeeffe (talk) 05:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

conlicting information

The people arrested March 28 considered police to be their enemies and were going to attack police and then attack the funerals according to the first two links below. That's completely different from an anti-Islamic organization. http://www.fox11az.com/news/national/89370147.html http://www.startribune.com/nation/89383482.html?elr=KArks:DCiUMEaPc:UiD3aPc:_Yyc:aU7DYaGEP7vDEh7P:DiUs 4.249.15.192 (talk) 15:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above are all allegations until proven. --Degen Earthfast (talk) 16:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The allegations are notable and verifiable. Press release from the US Attorneys Office is a reliable source I would reckon. http://www.scribd.com/doc/29094479/Press-release-on-Hutaree-indictment . 86.164.76.148 (talk)

The allegations are notable and verifiable, yes, but they are still merely allegations, not statements of fact. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not terrorists?

How are these maniacs not terrorists? Because they claim to be Christian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.212.200.24 (talk) 19:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They are not terrorists, by simple virtue of the fact they have committed no acts of terrorism. It is alleged they intended to do so in the near future, but the veracity of that claim has yet to be determined. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There does not need to be an act of violence, a threat of violence is enough. But if the claim of their intent remains unproven, so be it for now. 212.246.213.38 (talk) 10:07, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am in favor of keeping this article, at least for the present. There was significant news today, and it appears likely that it will be a current event for some days to come. I would like to see it stay, if only for the sake of persons who will hear about it on the news and want to look up something more about it. The article will undoubtedly grow as coverage becomes more in-depth. it would be nice to know (if it is in fact available) the origin of the term "Hutaree," beyond the group's simple derivation of it as Christian soldier. (From what language, or what origin?)Opaanderson (talk) 20:05, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

I'm going to remove the vandalism within the article. 69.110.72.128 (talk) 20:38, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification

In exactly what language does "Hutaree" mean "Christian Warrior?" Hebrew? Greek? Aramaic? One would assume one of these three, given that this is a purported "Christian" fundamentalist terrorist militia group. However, it is not clear from any of the news articles which one is the alleged source of their name. Calibanu (talk) 02:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)User Calibanu[reply]

I read an article online somewhere which indicated that Hutaree was said to mean "warrior" in "a secret language." It would appear to be a form of mumbo jumbo. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hate group?

The article is categorically tagged as a "hate group," and yet there doesn't seem to be any obvious basis for such a categorization. Advocating the violent overthrow of various other governments does not automatically make an organization a "hate group," ergo I see no reason to assume that advocating the violent overthrow of the government of the USA should be grounds for automatic branding as a "hate croup." I believe there is a well-meaning but misguided tendency on the part of some people to assume that any group that is violent (or apparently inclined towards violence), and which is part of the extreme right-wing, is somehow, by necessity, a "hate group." That seems nonsensical, however, and without some substantiation to the effect of how this group promotes (or promoted) a doctrinal hatred of some demographically definable segment of the population (presumably based on religion, race, ethnicity, nationality, colour, sex, or sexual orientation), then I'm going to remove the classification from this article. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some would argue that as it targeted a specifically defined occupational group (law enforcement officers), then it could be defined as a hate group on that basis. Is that argument valid here? Calibanu (talk) 02:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)User Calibanu[reply]

Such an argument would seem silly to me. They weren't perhaps planning to attack police officers due to an ideological hatred of those persons who choose to work in the enforcement of the laws, but rather because police officers are, much like soldiers, the armed protectors of the government which they apparently intended to overthrow. If one were to blow up a bridge, in order to prevent enemy soldiers from crossing said bridge, that would not mean that one belonged to a "hate group" which was motivated by a hatred of bridges. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They have a forum titled "Evil Jew Forum" http://www.hutaree.com/forum/ How are they not a hate group —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.190.67.54 (talk) 03:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If that's the case (and apparently it sort of is; they have a forum site where one of the sub-forums is entitled "Evil Jew Forum"), then the article must reflect that fact. If a group is going to be designated a "hate group," there must be evidence of that fact in the article, and at present, there is no such evidence. Now that you have posted some here on the Talk page, I will include it in the text of the article (where it sort of belonged all along). KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The title of the private forum in question appears to be an inside joke. Elsewhere in the forum, they express strong support for Israel, which seems unlikely if they were overtly anti-semitic. I don't think we can take the title of a private forum as proof without knowing anything about its contents. Hoveringdog (talk) 04:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It would seem we're back to square one ie., that the article presents no evidence they are a "hate group," ergo I have made the necessary adjustment by deleting the "Hate Groups" categorization link. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 04:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, opposition to a specific occupation does not make a group a hate group. If someone goes around saying "down with bankers" or even "kill the overpaid chief executives" they will not get labled as part of a hate group. In fact I am not sure radical left-wing groups in the 1960s that advocated killing police would get labeled "hate groups". The general consensus is that attacking people based on occupation is not a guide to being a hate group. Otherwise we would have to add all the groups that actively denounce chief-executives and "over paid executives" to the hate group category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Weapons of Mass Destruction"

I removed the Citation needed for the WMD claims. This is covered in the press release about the indictments from the US Attorneys office... Quoting "According to the plan, the Hutaree would attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession with Improvised Explosive Devices with Explosively Formed Projectiles, which, according to the indictment, constitute weapons of mass destruction." Just wanted to mention it on the talk page, instead of fitting it all into the edit summary. Malbolge (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC).[reply]

The U.S. Attorney's Office is not the arbiter of objective reality. The term "Weapons of Mass Destruction" has actual meaning, and these shaped projectile charges either meet that definition, or they do not. It has yet to be demonstrated they they do meet such a definition. WMDs are almost universally regarded as being limited to nuclear, biological, chemical, and radiological weapons. These are none of those. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:04, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The US Attorney's Office Press Release is a reliable source. They state the explosive devices constitute WMD's. The sentence involving WMD's is about the statements from the US Attorney's Office. Malbolge (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:13, 30 March 2010 (UTC).[reply]
The U.S. Attorney's Office has an obligation to use terms properly, just like everyone else. If they don't, then their press release only proves they have made a bizarre claim the group had WMDs, by employing an unorthodox definition of the term "WMD," not that the group possessed anything generally understood to actually constitute WMDs. If the U.S. Attorney's Office were to define shoelaces as a WMD, would that claim also be taken at face value? Or is it possible that the definition of WMDs is not something determined by the arbitrary perfidy of the U.S. Attorney's Office? KevinOKeeffe (talk) 03:27, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Further to the above, "For the purposes of US Criminal law concerning terrorism, weapons of mass destruction are defined as:

"any destructive device as defined in section 921 of this title;" With section 921 stating a destructive device is "any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas—bomb, grenade, rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces [113 grams], missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce [7 grams], mine, or device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses...." The devices to be used could meet these criteria, and so the WMD indictments. Malbolge (talk) 03:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

However, since a link was provided to the Weapons of mass destruction article in wikipedia, the weapons at question must meet the definition of the term as used in wikipedia, not the one used in US Criminal law. Interestingly enough, by the apparent US law definition of WMD, we found such in Iraq without question.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:32, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia article on WMDs also contained the claim that by U.S. civil defense standards, these so-called "shaped projectile charges," or whatever the operative term precisely was, constituted WMDs, but contained a Citation Needed tag, so this very much appears to remain a fact in contention, by any reasonable standard. KevinOKeeffe (talk) 05:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think any of the above changes the verifiable, notable fact that the members of Hutaree have been indicted on charges of attempted use of Weapons of Mass Destruction, as detailed in the US Attorney's Office Press Release. 86.164.76.148 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC).[reply]
Also, I don't see any Citation Needed tag at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_Mass_Destruction#Legal_definitions . There may be a citation tag for Civil Defense, but I don't see how Civil Defense is relevant to the Criminal charges being brought against the Hutaree. Malbolge (talk) 13:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Need for re-write

There is a need for someone to re-write and realighn the article. It is unclear why the statement of the person connected with the Michigan Militia has any relevance. What is needed is a search of Southern Poverty Law Center and other such group documents to see if any pre-March 27th references can be found. The Hutaree existed before that date, but the fact that they did is not fully recognized in the article. Also, due to various editors not considering how their edits effected the context of the whole article there are now sentances that imply things that are not what they originally were meant to say.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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