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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by BdLM (talk | contribs) at 17:34, 31 March 2010. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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English version

I have translated this page from the spanish & Italian wikipedia.--Remus10 (talk) 04:57, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The page is based on the book of Sanfilippo about this colony that Ferdinando I Medici wanted:

Here it is an excerpt (I can translate it, if required):

« Nei primi anni del Seicento Ferdinando I di Toscana ...valuta la possibilità di una colonia brasiliana. Il 30 agosto 1608 l’ingegnere fiorentino Baccio da Filicaia,...gli invia una lettera da Lisbona. In essa ricostruisce la conquista del Brasile e spiega le ragioni del declino della colonia lusitana. Neanche un mese più tardi Ferdinando fa armare una caravella e una tartana nel porto di Livorno e le affida al capitano Thornton. Il viaggio è in realtà preparato da tempo – la lettera di Baccio ha soltanto accelerato un programma già stabilito - e il granduca ha persino chiesto a Robert Dudley una pianta dell’Amazzonia, da quest’ultimo esplorata nel 1595. Dudley consiglia a Thornton di cercare l’oro sulle rive del Rio delle Amazzoni e dell’Orinoco. Ferdinando ordina più prosaicamente di caricare balle di merci e di fondare, se possibile, un avamposto commerciale. Thornton naviga per quasi un anno: approda in Guyana e in Brasile, esplora il Rio delle Amazzoni e l’Orinoco, rientra facendo tappa alla Caienna e a Trinidad. Il 12 luglio 1609 è di nuovo a Livorno, ma non trova nessuno cui riferire la propria impresa. Il 7 febbraio di quell’anno il granduca è morto e a Firenze non si pensa più alla possibilità di fondare una colonia o un comptoir commerciale oltreoceano. »

Sincerely, I don't see any problem with POV. It is just plain history (and nobody in the Spanish & Italian wiki has complained about). Cheers.--Remus10 (talk) 05:12, 10 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Remus10. I don't see problems with any POV. I suggest to erase the tag asap. The "Italian colonization of the Americas" by Ferdinando I Medici is well documented by scholars like Sanfilippo, Franzina and Ridolfi.--Keatingbeach (talk) 01:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a mistake the tag! I have just added a reference of scholar Ridolfi.--3leopard (talk) 21:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I support the removal of the tag. The article has a complete NPOV.--Rubinmar (talk) 03:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have just removed the tag, as per above discussion. Thanks to Keatingbeach, 3leopard and Rubinmar for their support. Cheers. --Remus10 (talk) 04:02, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rename the article

Since the colonisation (spelled with an "s", see WP:ENGVAR) never happened and the article only refers to a speculative attempt and immigration, it should be renamed. You can't name it after something that never happened (Italy's victory of WWII, anyone?). The section on supposed "colonies" of immigrants should also go as it's more accurately covered by Italian diaspora. Single issue articles, please. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 00:42, 14 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the action done by Brutaldeluxe is totally mistaken. He should have read the references of scholars like Sanfilippo. Wikipedia is based on scholar opinions and not on his POV. Even his comment about "Italy's victory of WWII" shows a bit of "hate" toward the Italians (read:Anti-Italianism).--Keatingbeach (talk) 15:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally: all the articles about european colonization are with "z" (german colonization, british colonization, etc..) and have been accepted without problems by wikipedia for years. Why Brutaldeluxe changes ONLY the Italian colonization spelling?--Keatingbeach (talk) 16:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the brutal vandalism that wants to erase the opinions of scholars like Sanfilippo about the tentative of an Italian colonization in the Americas. Thank you Keastingbeach for your support.--Remus10 (talk) 16:17, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Look, wiki is not about opinion, but facts. The fact is that colonisation by Italy of the Americas never happened. All we have in this article is the description of one expedition. If you want to write about the opinion of a scholar, then do it in the article on that scholar. Seen as the expedition is not really that important and not much has been written about it, I'm wondering whether the article should be deleted and the expedition briefly mentioned at Colonization of the Americas. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 15:08, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but facts are supported by scholars like Sanfilippo, Franzina and Ridolfi.....Brutaldeluxe doesn't show any fact, only his (a bit "antitiitalian") POV: 3 scholars write about the expedition and this is not enough for him? Unbelievable!.... I totally support the article translated from Spanish/Italian wiki by Remus10.--BdLM (talk) 17:19, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the sources, I just don't believe there ever was a colonisation when the only thing that happened was ONE EXPEDITION BY AN ENGLISH CAPTAIN. Do you agree on this very simple fact? Brutal Deluxe (talk) 17:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is enough this simple fact (supported by scholars!) to justify an article on wikipedia: this is the way every encyclopedia works. The first rule for an encyclopedia is the truth and this fact is real and supported by scholars, do you understand? If the truth has been found only a few years ago (like did Sanfilippo), this doesn't matter. Wikipedia has plenty of articles based on much less: look at the "hints" of contacts between Rome and China for example (no proofs at all, only theories...but Wikipedia has artices about). Indeed, Colonia Tovar is a german settlement of the XIX century and nobody complains about the inclusion (of this settlement in Venezuela) inside the article "German colonization in Americas"--BdLM (talk) 17:34, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming discussion

Italian colonization of Americas → Thornton expedition — What the current article calls an "Italian colonization of Americas", similarly to the German and Scottish ones, never resulted in a lasting colony. Crucially, and unlike the latter cases, the potential Tuscan settlers never left the dock for the New World. After a brief exploration expedition by English captain Robert Thornton, and the death of the Grand Duke of Tuscany, the whole scheme was abandoned. Should the article still be named 'Italian colonisation'? This article is the subject of a naming dispute, and although I opened the discussion I take no position on the matter. Deusdemona (talk) 05:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Rename. No settlement ever occurred, at least in the case of Scottish and German attempts, they did lead to settlement, if only for a brief period. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 15:12, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I believe there it is a bit of VANDALISM going on here. I suggest to calm down and ask for an admin intervention.--BdLM (talk) 17:19, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rename. There is no colonization discussed here. No population, not even any land controlled. Rmhermen (talk) 17:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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