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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Greg L (talk | contribs) at 00:03, 10 April 2010 (→Aafia Siddiqui: P.S.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Aafia Siddiqui

Aafia Siddiqui (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): Epeefleche (talk) 08:22, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because:

  1. IMHO it meets FA criteria;
  2. When the subject of the article was convicted, the article received over 12K hits;
  3. Her sentencing (which will be 30 years to life) is set for May 6, and I think it would be great for the project to have it featured that day if possible, as it is likely to be of great public interest.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:22, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. The second link I mentioned is still in the page. Ucucha 21:05, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good. Another one: http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sns-ap-us-al-qaida-suspect-shooting,0,3232452.story appears to link to a page of search results, not the news story. Ucucha 23:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi -- before I address, just want to make certain I understand. Are you suggesting that the inline of "wanted for questioning" be changed into a ref? Happy to do it, but just want to make sure I understand the comment.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:05, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose because this BLP article contravenes policy in several ways. In particular, primary sources (court records, indictments, psychiatric/psychology/forensic evaluations, affidavits) are liberally used, often without secondary sources to support them, in direct contravention of BLP's Misuse of Primary Sources section. Also very worryingly, allegations sourced from legal documents of accusation are inappropriately presented as facts rather than attributed: the first 5 sentences of the third paragraph of the Lead are a particularly obvious example of this, but there are multiple other instances. I pointed these major problems out at length on the talkpage several weeks ago,[1] and others have given similar advice at WP:RSN [2]. No changes have been made, and unfortunately I haven't yet had the time to fix the problems myself.

There are also other reasons why the article does not meet FA standards, including problems with prose, manual of style and citation, and some very close paraphrasing of sources (cf: the WP article "She also helped establish the Dawa Resource Center, a program that distributed Qurans and offered Islam-based advice to prison inmates" with the source "She helped establish the Dawa Resource Center, a program that operates out of Faaruuq's mosque, distributing Korans and offering Islam-based advice to prison inmates."[3]), but the sourcing and verifiability difficulties are significant enough in themselves. --Slp1 (talk) 22:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Eppefleche asked me to comment on the sourcing. The article seems to depend upon good secondary newspaper sources. That the primary sources are given also is a plus, not a minus. I'm just commenting on this, not the article in general. DGG ( talk ) 23:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But they aren't given as a plus. As you say and as I have made clear on the talkpage of the article, if they supported secondary sources there would be no problem. But on no less than 28 occasions primary sources (court documents) are used as the only citations for information on a BLP. Check the occasions where references (currently) numbered 4, 6, 10, 11, 28, 72, 76 are the only source(s) used either alone or in combination. Likely the primary sources could be replaced or supported by secondary sources for some/most of the information. But this needs to happen for this to be a FA, or frankly BLP compliant. --Slp1 (talk) 23:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Fine, you don’t find the article to be FA quality, Slp1. I have zero problem with that. It would however, be exceedingly nice if you properly understood what primary sources (PSTS) is about so you aren’t misconstruing things and potentially confusing others.

    PSTS is part of Wikipedia:No original research (WP:OR). In this context—and, as spelled out right in the PSTS, Primary sources are very close to an event, often accounts written by people who are directly involved, offering an insider's view of an event. In many cases it clearly preferable that we not rely upon a primary source; for instance, some guy in Chevy Chase, Maryland, who purportedly received and read the contents of a letter written by Elvis in 2006. In this context, secondary sources are preferred, such as a Newsweek article that endorses the witness’ first-hand account as being credible and doesn’t mention that the witness is currently being treated by a mental health expert.

    Clearly, one would rightly call “court records, federal indictments,” etc. to be a “primary source” and that has you all sideways on the logic. Why? Because just as clearly, they are WP:Reliable sources and are not—by any stretch of the imagination—what is considered to be “original research.” In fact, court records will often take precedence over secondary sources. For instance, if Newsweek reported that a federal prosecutor had indicted a terrorist for possessing hollow-point bullets when in fact, the federal indictment papers themselves state right there in black & white that the bullets were armor-piercing, then one goes with what the indictment papers say. That doesn’t mean that the terrorist was guilty of possessing armor-piercing bullets or even possessed them; only that the federal indictment was for possessing armor-piercing bullets.

    Seeking the most authoritative sources is what I typically do; I often contact the Ph.D. authors of scientific papers and have them send me PDFs of the actual paper so I can quote straight out of the papers. Besides, corresponding with the Ph.D. saves me money because I don’t have to subscribe to the journals. Exchanging dozens of e-mails with the author of the scientific paper in question until I thoroughly understand the issue sure beats simply ralphing out some gibberish gleaned from Popular Mechanics.

    I suggest you get over the primary/secondary-source issue since it seems to have gotten you all confused and just focus on the objective: cite reliable sources, which courts and federal prosecutors are considered to be. And such sources aren’t considered to be “original research”. This all falls under the head of WP:Common sense, or, in the rest of the world is known as a Well, DUH thing.

    It is obvious that if the article in question possesses, as you say, “liberal” citations referencing the actual court records and indictment papers, then this is a strength of the article and reflects well upon the editor, who obviously devoted great effort to cite accurate and unassailable facts. Greg L (talk) 23:54, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I fully endorse what DGG wrote, which summarizes what I was trying to say, only with far fewer words. Good job, DGG, next time I might run my posts by you for some copy editing. Greg L (talk) 00:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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