Talk:Du gamla, du fria

Something

I really think we need a major revision of the current translation. I will briefly outline my arguments below.

It's not a free, poetic translation, nor should it (in my opinion) be. As should be obvious from a quick look, there is no rhyme, and only a few lines adhere to metre. Trying to write a poetically good translation is difficult, and inevitably means sacrificing semantic accuracy. Attempts have been made (by anonymous editors) to get satisfactory rhythm (e.g. In beauty and peace our hearts beguiling), but these have completely sacrificed accurate translation. I see no need to go even further along this track.

Another, albeit less important, point is the use of "thou". While it is indeed (on a purely semantic level) the only form that precisely corresponds with Swedish "du", it has a rather formal tone, when used in modern English, that doesn't quite reflect the Swedish text. I think a more thought-for-thought approach (plain and simple "you") benefits a translation of this kind more. Opinions are welcome.

While on this topic, does Wikipedia have any official guidelines regarding translations of poetry? Skimming the history of this page, I feel that such guidelines would be rather helpful, so that everyone can work towards the same goal instead of moving the article back and forth between two camps.

I will probably do some revisions to this page soonish. --EldKatt 1 July 2005 14:05 (UTC)

"thou" [...] has a rather formal tone, when used in modern English, that doesn't quite reflect the Swedish text. I think a more thought-for-thought approach (plain and simple "you") benefits a translation of this kind more. Opinions are welcome.

EK, while I appreciate the constructiveness of your comments, I would not, myself, say that "thou" is out of place in an English-language rendition of the lyrics of a national anthem. Thou, in this context, is not so much "formal" (it is, after all, historically, the INFORMAL second-person singular pronoun!) as... dignified – and therefore entirely appropriate.

Leaving aside the fact that many might think that it would be "over-egging the pudding", the ideal from my point of view would be to have: definitely, a straightforward, "literal" translation; optionally, a "poetic" translation; plus, preferably (from my own wish-to-sing-along point of view!), a "free" metrical (i.e. fitting-the-tune singable) translation. Regarding the last desideratum, I think that Fred-Chess's contribution (below) from the Swedish Institute would be well worth adding to the article. -- Picapica 23:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, you are right; "thou" is not formal, but it is (and this is, I suppose, what I intended to say originally) archaic. My objection was based in the notion that the tone of the Swedish text, as I see it, has no particular archaic qualities. When I think about it again, though, it may be that getting the point across that the singular is used is more important in a literal translation (at least one of encyclopedic value) than avoiding an archaic tone. As such, I believe I withdraw my remark.

Out of curiosity, how do you differentiate between your second and third kind of translation? Shouldn't a poetic translation worthy of its name be metrically equivalent to the original (and thus singable)? EldKatt (Talk) 21:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You are right: the second kind of translation ("poetic" but unsingable) is eminently dispensable! There are a few horrors of this kind in some of the current national anthem articles, e.g.

Prosper, O country, in harmony unbreakable;

Be forever thyself and never servile,

True to the word that thou shouldst fearlessly declare:

For King, for Freedom, and for Justice.

Lots of "verse-speak": harmony unbreakable, thou shouldst, etc. But impossible, alas, to sing to the tune of the Belgian national anthem! --Picapica 20:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

---

Translation from Swedish Institute: http://www.sweden.se/upload/Sweden_se/english/music/The_Swedish_National_Anthem.pdf

Thou ancient, thou freeborn, thou mountainous North,
In beauty and peace our hearts beguiling,
I greet thee, thou loveliest land on the earth,
Thy sun, thy skies, thy verdant meadows smiling.
Thy sun, thy skies, thy verdant meadows smiling.

Thy throne rests on mem’ries from great days of yore,
When worldwide renown was valour’s guerdon.
I know to thy name thou art true as before.
Oh, I would live and I would die in Sweden,
Oh, I would live and I would die in Sweden.

Fred-Chess 08:32, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

My translation

I made a literal translation of the song's first two verses. Feel free to do whatever you like with it.

You old, you free, you mountainous north, You silent, you joyful beuaty! I greet you, the friendliest land on earth, Your sun, your sky, your meadows green

You throne on memories from ancient grand days when honoured your name flew over the earth I know that you are and remain what you were Yea, I want to live, I want to die in the North

Andelarion 21:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

questions raised

I found a recording of this anthem at the cylinder preservation project made by Arvid Asplund in 1905 entitled "Du gamla, du friska". The song is exactly the same except for this "friska". Is it just a missinterpretation by Arvid (since the song was quite new then) or does anyone else have an explantion for this?

here's the link: http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/search.php?queryType=@attr%201=1016&query=swedish&num=1&start=9&sortBy=&sortOrder=ia johan_h 21:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The original word was "friska", I've added that to the article. It should be possible to give a date for the change as well. I might look into that. -- Jao 21:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

That recording actually raises big questions about many of the facts usually told about the song. It´s mostly stated that Richard Dybeck changed "fria" to "friska" himself, and that the song got its unofficial status of national anthem as early as in the 1890´s. But here someone found a recording from 1905, with an announcer who clearly states that Arvid Asplund will sing some song called "Du gamla du friska". The "fria" change obviously has happened later! The growth into national anthem status obviously hasn´t happened in 1905 either. Pemer 08:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Literal Translation

I agree that the "poetic" translation is not what should be featured, and the use of "thou" and "thy" is awkward. I have swapped it for a literal translation and pasted the original here. I hope I have more accurately translated the lyrics without making it sound awkward in English (disregarding rhyme and metre).

Previous "poetic" translation for reference:

Thou ancient, thou free, thou mountainous North

In beauty and peace our hearts beguiling!

I greet thee, thou loveliest land on the earth

/:Thy sun, thy skies, thy meadows green:/

thy rest on the memories of the great days of yore

When all round the world thine name honoured was

I know that you are and you will be as you were

/:Oh, I would live and I would die in the North:/

Forever I shall serve thee my beloved country,

until death I owe thee my fidelity.

Thy right I will protect with mind and with hand,

/:thy banner, feats of bravery carry:/

With God I shall fight, for home and for bliss,

for Sweden, the dear fatherland.

For nothing, in the world, I would trade thee.

/: No, I would live and I would die in the North :/

--Marcoose 19:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The only issue I have with this is that a poetic translation close to the old one here is stated here to be the official English translation. I have no idea what they mean by this, as the song isn't even official. It would be nice to know who wrote that version, as it seems quite well done, and is reproduced throughout the web (both in that version, and in the various, obviously obfuscated, versions that have been featured here). However, we can't really have an unsourced poetic translation, that would be (a kind of) original research, or in the worst case a copyvio. And even if that translation were, properly sourced, to be included, I welcome the literal translation to accompany it. -- Jao 19:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Good point -- I wondered whether to leave the poetic version above and simply add an additional literal translation. In the end I thought it too confusing and cluttered to have three translations, especially when the poetic and literal don't match particularly well.

I followed your link and agree that there doesn't seem to be much proof of an "official" translation, but it does appear to be a de-facto just like the status of the song itself.

There is a reference to Wikipedia at the bottom of the page that leads here [1], and under Item 1, Subitem 2 it states "2) På susning bestämmer ägaren Lars Aronsson allt (vad som får skrivas, vem som får skriva, etc))" -- Lars Aronsson the site owner decides what goes on the site (what is official??). This doesn't make me too comfortable that the translation given is "official" although it seems well done.

--Marcoose 13:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Why was the previous attempt at a literal translation replaced with an attempt at a poetic translation? I feel the translation as of september fifth was getting quite good. Why was it replaced without any discussion? From where does the current translation come? If it is to remain, it should not be labeled a literal translation; it is far from it. --Odie

It is not to remain unless the editor who wants to put it there explains his actions, seeing as how we appear to have sort of a consensus. I've reverted. EldKatt (Talk) 15:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like to voice a slight opposition to the translation "fosterjorden"->"Fatherland". While I do agree that they are of similar meaning, the former, in my interpretation of the word, draws a picture of the area where a person was born, while the latter, in my interpretation of it, has more to do with the nation built by someones ancestors. To me, defending the "fosterjord" is an act of passion, a defense of things you have grown to like because you have lived with them all your life, but defending the "Fatherland" is an act of duty and allegiance to a state, a defence not of what you have experienced, but of the "great things" that other people before you have achieved. Since we're not concerned with meter or rhyme, I believe it would be possible to find a translation that more closely reflects those subtle tones of "fosterjorden", though of course I realise that those tones exist in my opinion but perhaps not in yours. Does anyone agree that there is a slight discrepancy here? Does anyone have suggestions as to a better translation? Does anyone even understand what I'm getting at? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.209.107.201 (talk) 14:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Though "Fatherland" is more in line with the nationalist intention of these two verses (the two first verses are not really nationalist at all) it is not an accurate translation of "fosterjord". A literal translation would be "foster soil". It's a reference to the soil, not the nation. (I would prefer "soil" before "earth". Soil is where something grows and fosters. Earth is dirt.) Perhaps you should even spoil the prefix "foster-" alltogether and just translate it to "soil". Additionally, fatherland is "gender-ish", while "fosterjord" is genderless so it would both be more politically correct and accurate not to use "father" (nor "mother"). On the other hand, since the two added verses carry a nationalist agenda and nobody even knows of them, why are they given such a prominent status in the article at all? They should merely be a footnote, if they are significant at all. 195.67.45.178 (talk) 12:02, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The addition

I think that the addition (verses 3 and 4) should be ommitted. Has any living person ever sung them? As is already mentioned in the article, they are not very official. The parodic "Du gamla, du fria, du smällfeta ko..." is of more interest, as it is widely known, and has been since my grandmother was young. Battra 00:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The translation

The translation as it stands now is incorrect. "Jag hälsar Dig, vänaste land uppå jord" does NOT mean "I greet You, friendliest land upon earth" but rather "I greet You, most beautiful land upon earth". (This is the adjective "vän" (=beautiful, lovely,..) , not the noun "vän" (=friend).) Battra 00:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The name

Maybe it should at least be mentioned that the title of the anthem is Sång till Norden (song of the North), and that "Du gamla, du fria" is the informal (though de facto) name?

"Song of the North" is not the translation of "Sång till Norden". "Song to the North" maybe, but I've never taken "Norden" as the North, but as the Nordic. Chandlertalk 17:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

If the name of the song is "Sång till Norden", why isn't the article at this name rather than its incipit? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:41, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

It can't be called "its name", only the title under which a revision of its lyrics was published some decades before it enjoyed the de facto position of national anthem. It's unlikely that it has ever been published under this name for the last 140 years or so. Please refer to WP:COMMONNAME. Tomas e (talk) 16:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME it is. Norma Jeane Mortenson, Reginald Kenneth Dwight and Allen Stewart Konigsberg are redirects, too. decltype (talk) 06:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed misleading paragraph on introduction

I've deleted the paragraph

"Only the first two verses are normally sung. At international sporting events, often only the first verse is played. Furthermore, many - if not most - instrumental recordings take up time by playing the repeated fourth and fifth strophe of the melody as an "intro" before playing the actual song. This is something that is never done with any other national anthem."

for the following reasons:

• The fact that "only the first two verses are normally sung" is explicitly stated in the lyrics.
• At international sporting events, every national anthem has only its first verse sung. The Swedish one is no exception.
• In the recording to which the page links, the introduction consists of the fourth/fifth line played only once.
• The statement that such introductions are "never done with any other national anthem" is inaccurate as the Swiss anthem, to take but one example, features the same. The practice of using the last line of a song as an instrumental introduction to a choral piece is nothing extraordinary.

JREL (talk) 08:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"Du blir" or "förblir"

I have honestly only heard "förblir vad du var" when I have heard it or sang it....never heard ""du blir/bliver vad du var".... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.82.35.152 (talk) 19:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone recently changed the lyrics to "förblir", too. I don't want to revert it without having an authoritative source for the correct lyrics, but I pretty firmly believe in the many people saying that "du blir" is correct. The complicating point is of course that "bli(va)" is no longer used in this sense ("remain", the same as German "bleiben") in modern Swedish, and the line makes no sense if you interpret it as "become". The "remain" meaning is still listed without markers of archaism in the 1913 volume of Svenska Akademiens ordbok though, so Dybeck may very well have used it. Still, who has a contemporary source? -- Jao (talk) 15:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a note - nothing against the comment above: In Scania (Skåne) many people still use the word "bli" as "remain". I've sometimes heard "Bli där!" which means "Stay there!". The switch of meanings of words raises another interesting question. Should the lyrics of the national anthem be changed to record the shift of meaning, or should one keep an old, archaic, language? If people start using a different wording, which version should be preferred, the common one or the original? To put it short: Languages evolve, should national anthems be allowed to evolve with them? (And if so, should translations also change over time?) 11:51, 29 April 2010 (UTC)~

Basshunter?

"He made the remix of the national anthem" ?? THE remix, heh? In what sense is his remix more noteworthy than any other remix/cover/whatever that's been done? I mean, if I added Pluton Svea to the list, I'm quite sure that would be edited out rather quickly. What's the deal with Basshunter's version? (And in case I'm not being obvious enough: Unless there's something I don't know about Basshunter's remix, I say we remove him from the list) 94.191.173.9 (talk) 08:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Done. I think this is a no-brainer. —JAO • T • C 09:25, 24 February 2009 (UTC)