Talk:List of outlaw motorcycle clubs

Hell's Satans

I don't quite understand why Hell's Satans ought to link to a Simpsons site. either 1) the Hell's Satans are a real group of bikers, then i can't see why the link should lead to a parody on them; or 2) the Hell's Satan are a fictional group only existing in a Simpsons episode, then they should be removed from the list. or did i get something wrong? greetings, Flechtwerk 12:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Whichever is the correct answer, don't make a redlink if you're not sure that such a group really exists. I'd rather see a separate section under the heading "Fictional motorcycle gangs" at the bottom of the page than remove the Hell's Satans completely. Wipe 14:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why? If the Hell's Satans only exist in the Simpson's episode, then the brief mention they get here should be enough. Wikipedia is an on-line encyclopedia, not a TV trivia game. It's enough work to try to manage a list of real (either historic or current) motorcycle gangs, and differentiate them from the other 99 percent of real motorcycle clubs without having to include fictional gangs. Garth of the Forest 06:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Unforgiven

I see that the "Unforgiven" is shown as a group out of South Pekin, Illinois. This may well be true, but it was also the name of a bogus outlaw motorcycle club that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco & Fireams came up with in order to try to obtain convictions of I think it was Hells Angels somewhere in the Southwest. The ATF was successful. In any event, I thought that maybe this "Unforgiven" should also notated to include that there was also a bogus ATF club by that name at one point. LOL. It's talked about in "Angels of Death" by William Marsden and Julian Sher. Also, they mention the Coffin Cheaters in Australia, so I have added that as well (I think it's a west coast group, out of Perth or someplace like that). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.158.108 (talk) 20:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

"Rockers" - "Rock Machine"

This list mentions the "Rockers" out of Montreal. Is that the same as "the Rock Machine"??? (I think the Rock Machine patched over at some point, but it was a major club at some point - is this the same as the "Rockers"??? Sounds too close - gotta be the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.158.108 (talk) 20:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The Rock Machine was the rival gang that the Hells Angels were duking it out with during the "Quebec biker wars". The Rockers were an Angels puppet club. Two very different groups with similar names. Don't "gotta be".Garth of the Forest (talk) 17:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Is this list meaningful?

A lot of the organizations listed here have either been patched over into other gangs (mostly into the Big Four), or currently operate as "puppet gangs" for one of the "Big Four" or some other larger gang. Others are likely bogus (see discussion above), or for other reasons currently unknown (i.e. is Y Rohirrim an actual motorcycle gang, or has someone visiting here seen and/or read The Lord of the Rings a few too many times?), don't belong here in this list. Is there some acceptable way we can make this list more useful, i.e. by somehow indicating in what region (and era) the gang is (or was) active, and what their current status is, short of writing a whole bunch of (very) short articles about former biker gangs or "wannabee" biker gangs that probably don't warrant an article of their very own? Garth of the Forest 06:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem I see with this list is that there is no consensus definition of motorcycle gang. The groups listed here, mostly motorcycle clubs are placed here solely based on one editors opinion that they are a gang. We could change the title to List of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs (OMGs), which is an official FBI/Criminal Intelligence Service Canada (CISC) designation, thus providing verifiable criteria for inclusion. Additionally, being listed as an OMG by FBI/CISC automatically imputes notability, and therefore makes an article about such a group possible.

So, as I see it, there are three options here:

• Leave this article as is
• Rename this article to List of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs
• AFD this article and create a new List of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs

Thoughts and/or suggestions? Mmoyer 01:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Good feedback. One thing I do appreciate about this list is that it includes some clubs that are no longer operating under that name but are of historical significance. While there may not be a consensus definition of "motorcycle gang", a pragmatic way of making the distinction between a "motorcycle club" and the subset term "gang" is whether or not the club uses a three piece patch or not, where the bottom rocker typically designates a state, province, city, or other significant region of operation (or, in the case of the Hells Angels, the special lower rocker "Nomads"). The other giveaways are the use of the patches "MC" and/or "one-percenter". For example, if you visit the website for the Iron Indian Riders Association (a "99-percenter" club, definitely not a "gang"), and read the "Requirements, Guidelines, and Benefits" section, they very clearly forbid members from wearing three piece patches on the backs of their jackets, or any chapter location bars or lower rockers indicating a state, territory, city, or other region, and also from wearing a "1%er" or "MC" patch. The reason for this, while not explicitly stated, is to avoid potential conflict over "turf" with the "gangs". See this article[23] for a discussion of the possible implications of not following the membership requirements of a 99%-er club like the IIRA. Or this one[24].

My concern is that if we restrict the contents of this list solely to the official OMG designation as per the FBI and/or CSIS, this might result in too short of a list (four organizations according to this article), unless - does the FBI also list known puppet clubs or smaller players other than the "big four"?

With this concern in mind, my initial thoughts are either to

• leave this article as is, but add a brief description behind each name; or
• rename the article to List of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs, as you suggested, and provide a link to this list. This second choice implies a significant reduction in the length of this list, and an increase in size of the other list (List of Motorcycle Clubs), which, in my opinion, should also then include all the notable historic so-called "gangs" that were in existence prior to when the law enforcement agencies you mentioned created the official designation Outlaw Motorcycle Gang. Garth of the Forest 20:30, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to be bold and start adding (where known) the location of the founding (mother) chapter, as well as year established, etc. Otherwise this list is just a redundant repetition of what could be handled by a category designation. Garth of the Forest (talk) 04:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Title correction

The title should read something more akin to "List of Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs." Despite the incorrect designation of certain motorcycle clubs as 'gangs' by law enforcement agencies, they are, in fact, not gangs, but motorcycle clubs, and should be designated as such, as this is the manner both in which the clubs refer to themselves, and how they are addressed by other members of the motorcycle community (AMA included). Nephilim13 (talk) 21:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Please explain why you think the law enforcement designation is "incorrect", and/or provide some other third party, reliable source to verify your claim. A gang is simply "a number of persons associated for a particular purpose" ([25]|Wiktionary:gang); I think the word fits appropriately here. Garth of the Forest (talk) 16:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

By the Wiktionary definition, I would agree. "A number of persons associated for a particular purpose". And by this very logic, we can go down to the LAPD and see the Los Angeles Police Gang in action. Or, we could go to the local campgrounds, because after all, the local Boy Scout Gang is there.

The point is, the word "gang" has a negative connotation, and is often used by biased individuals to perpetrate a stereotype. If Wikipedia is to have any semblance of integrety in its entries, it should BE a reliable source. You are asking us to basically disprove a stereotype, which can be argued around and around. With the Wiktionary definition itself, it should eliminate the title of this list, because the term "gang" would apply to Riding Clubs, Motorcycle Clubs, Motorcycle Ministries, Police Clubs, etc.

67.232.127.153 (talk) 06:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)P

RE: Vandalism by mynameisstanley, convicted sockpuppet

Please hold off adding any new names for a day or two; I plan to restore this to a previous version of the list in a future edit...Garth of the Forest (talk) 03:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: Is this list meaningful

The problem with narrowing the title to accomodate a "verifiable criteria for inclusion" as per the FBI or CISC is that their criteria is flawed. It is written in a language so vague that the Boy Scouts, Masonic Lodge, or even the Police themselves can be construed as a "gang".

Federal guidelines passed allow enhanced sentencing for those involved in criminal organizations. However, it is often misused due to its vagueness, and many individuals are charged under the RICO act for organized crime. However, the burden of proof SHOULD rest upon the prosecutors in a criminal case to prove WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that it was an organizational decision and not an individual decision. After all, if this can be done for one subset of society, then it should be done for all.

I personally feel that the title of "gang" in the context of the clubs listed, as well as for those that would be negatively represented (possibly libeled) by printing that they are a "gang", is a disservice.

If you want to label, label them for what they are. Riding Clubs, Motorcycle Clubs, Motorcycle Ministries, etc. It is a disservice to the community to propagate the negative stereotypes of those who choose to ride. Joe Citizen doesn't notice the XYZ MC; they just see a patch and remember what they read at Wikipedia.

67.232.127.153 (talk) 06:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC)P

While I completely disagree with the conclusion you've reached in the last sentence of your first paragraph, I do take your point about the negative connotation of the word "gang". But, if the shoe fits... Anyway - I objected to narrowing the title to the "law enforcement" designation because that is essentially four clubs. No need for a list. We were trying to capture other, smaller, or historically significant clubs in this list. Someone else decided it should only include those clubs which have their very own Wikipedia article, and went on a delete rampage. I have yet to get around to reconstructing the list we had before, but it is still on my "to-do" list. Perhaps we can agree to call it "List of Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs" (using Coyote's definition rather than the FBI's definition?) Comments? Suggestions? Garth of the Forest (talk) 19:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

What about creating a master list, with subsections. MCs that are on the law enforcement lists can have a section, those that identify themselves as ministries get a section, and so forth? This way, there is one inclusive list with sub-lists, then our only trouble is deciding which clubs go into which sections (this can be subjective at times, and invites vandalism or repeated counter-edits). OMGs can have their designation noted, without being too short for its own article. Thoughts? Sabin4232 (talk) 23:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Night wolves

The largest Russian club should also be mentioned, I suppose http://www.nightwolves.ru/en/ 78.107.92.84 (talk) 08:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)Peter

Other OMCG not included

Gypsy joker - Lone Wolf - Fourth Reich - Life and death - Highway 61 - Coffin cheaters - Odin's warriors—Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.69.86 (talk) 13:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

These lists become a nightmare to maintain if they grow too large, and if additions are made without each one having a reliable source. I don't think the existence of a web page is sufficent criteria for inclusion. While a club does not have to meet all the criteria in WP:ORG to be on a list, as they would to have their own WP page, there still needs to be a reasonable minimum.

Unsourced additions should be deleted right away to keep it from getting out of hand.--Dbratland (talk) 18:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree; please add a third party, verifiable source (such as a book, or a newspaper article) when adding a name to this list. The fact that there is a website for the "club" is not enough to verify that the club actually exists because a "club" website is neither a third party source nor does the existence of a club website necessarily verify the actual existence of a club. Any caged monkey with an internet connection can create a website, this does not a motorcycle club make. Garth of the Forest (talk) 17:54, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

List of suggested additions

Please move these to the article if a reliable independent citation is included demonstrating notability greater than merely having a web site. Outlaw clubs without an official web site but with reliable sources demonstrating notability may be added to the article. A separate WP article on the club is is not a requirement.

Suggested additions may be added to this list.

Name	Year founded	Location founded	Official Site	Citation
A'mon's	1972	Contra Costa County, California	[26]
Apollos		Regina, Saskatchewan
Balaios	1969	Rio de Janeiro, Brazil	[27]
Barons	1950's	St. Cloud, Minnesota	[28]
Born To Be Wild	1975	Berlin, Germany	[29]
Bounty Hunters		Canada
The Brotherhood	1990's	Denmark
Bullshit	1980's	Christiania, Denmark	[30]
Charter Oak	1947	Connecticut, United States
Chieftains	1976	Lawrence, Massachusetts	[31]
Coffin Cheaters		Australia	[32]
Dirty Dräggels	1980's	Malmö, Sweden	[33]
Foolish Few	1979	Melbourne, Victoria	[34]
Gremium	1972	Mannheim, Germany	[35]
Gypsy Jokers		Australia	[36]
Henchmen	1998	Livermore, California	[37]
Immortals	1971	Melbourne, Victoria	[38]
Iron Horsemen	1969	Melbourne, Victoria	[39]
Legion	1970	Pittsburgh, PA	[40]
Legion of Doom	1997	Brooklyn, New York City	[41]
Los Traviesos		New Mexico	[42]
Mad Dogs Motorcycle Club	2007	St. Albans, Maine	[43]
Mobshitters	1970	Sydney, New South Wales	[44]
Morbids	1980's	Helsingborg, Sweden	[45]
Morticians	1984	Copenhagen, Denmark	[46]
Nomads	1968	Australia	[47]
Odin's Warriors	1967	Queensland, Australia	[48]
Purple Gang	1998	North Carolina
Popeyes		Montreal, Quebec	[49]
Rebels	1969	Brisbane, Queensland	[50]
Rock Machine	???	Canada	???
Rowdies	1980's	Trondheim, Norway
Saraguay Troopers		Montreal, Quebec
Satan's Choice		Canada	[51]
Satan's Calvery		Victoria, Australia
Satans Own	1972	Cincinnati, Ohio	?
Satan's Sidekicks	1972	Detroit, Michigan
Satan's Sinners		Victoria, Australia
Satans Slaves	1960's	San Fernando Valley
Satans Slaves	1968	Fife, Scotland
Satan's Sons		Atlanta, Georgia
Sinners		Edmonton, Alberta
Unforgiven		South Pekin, Illinois
Wheels of Soul	1967	Trenton, New Jersey
White Trash	1980's	Helsingborg, Sweden

RfC started to discuss replacing Criminal Org Infobox with Org Infobox

Please comment on an RfC to replace Template:Infobox Criminal organization with Template:Infobox Organization for active motorcycle clubs. Thanks! --Dbratland (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Ya'all forgot about the El Forasteros... BTW- GGMC and EFMC ARE NOT OUTLAW GANGS. You are extremely mis-informed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.65.245 (talk) 18:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Bad Link

The link for Galloping Goose goes to something about railcars. That can't be right. 173.184.17.90 (talk) 00:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. One down, 37 to go. --Dbratland (talk) 05:43, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Deletions and rename?

There are many outlaw motorcycle clubs that are law abiding (some that are made up of law enforcement). It seems like the original author's intention was too focus on motorcycle gangs, so should this list be renamed to "List of 1% Motorcycle Clubs"? Also, even though they were precursors to the 1% lifestyle, I don't think Galloping Gooses, Market Street Commandos, POBOB, and Tophatters should be included on this list. They were rowdy for their times, but still not as rowdy as criminal gangs during that era. POBOB and Tophatters are still not a 1%, or gang-like MC even to this day. And Solo Angels, they aren't 1%, or gang-like. They should probably be removed. The rowdiest members of Solo Angels were probably the undercover ATF agents that posed as SA members while they were infiltrating the Hells Angels. 98.176.116.217 (talk) 08:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)