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May 3

Handing out titles of the Peerage of England - how was land involved?

I have read peerage of England, and similar articles about peerage in the UK, and I have looked up some of the oldest peerages like the baron de Ros. But I don't understand how some of these peerages are decided. For example I assume, that before being "Earl of Someplace", you needed in the feudal system to some have authority over "Someplace", for example, own a large part of the land, or have barons in that land that are your vassals, and that themselves own a fair amound of land. So when a peer was getting a title, would that peer be given some of the crown lands in that area? Woudl the barons be told that the new peer is now their new local reporting line? Would the recipeint, instead, be given this peerage only if they already owned significant amount of land. Also, is there a time where the land became totally unrelated to the title? Thanks for any pointers. --Lgriot (talk) 01:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

• One of the first peerages that was viewed as a personal honor rather than something linked to territory was created in 1388. See History_of_the_Peerage. Nowadays there is virtually no link to land for peers in the peerage of the United Kingdom, and only minimal linkage in terms of affecting peers in the peerage of Scotland (for example, a peer must be domiciled in Scotland in order to legitimate his bastard children by subsequent marriage to their mother, and feudal baronies exist in Scotland, though they are not peerages). Modern territorial designations tend toward places with personal associations rather than placed once or currently ruled (e.g., Lord Mountbatten of Burma). - Nunh-huh 02:03, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

[edit conflict] All I can answer is your final question — yes, there surely was such a time, but I'm not sure when it was. You can consider John Jervis, who was created Earl of St Vincent (c. 1800) even though St Vincent is in Portugal, not in England. Nyttend (talk) 02:05, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

You'll be interested in the article Victory title.--Wetman (talk) 04:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Ross-of-Bladensburg. The family crest could be considered offensive to Americans. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it (which may not be spot on), peerages and similar constructs in other regions of the world were originally designed as political/military/economic structures. basically, a ruler would lay claim over a particular region of land which was too extensive for him to defend and monitor directly, and so he would select people to take control of various regions (local defense against invasion, organization of production, tax collection, etc), often as a reward for loyalty, and allow them to build small military forces from the local populations. it's the same idea as a colonial governor (except that a colonial governor generally works through some pre-established local political system, and doesn't raise his own troops but is supplied with troops by the crown). part of being a peer, of course, would be the construction of fortresses, keeps, and residences, and these structures would (de facto) belong to the peer and his heirs, leading to some fairly extensive land-ownership in noble families. --Ludwigs2 06:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

As I understand it, some peerages were created when William the Conqueror gave lands to the generals who fought alongside him in the Norman Conquest: an example of this would be (my direct ancestor) the Earl of Hastings. So the land followed the favour, rather than the favour following the land. --TammyMoet (talk) 07:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The British Isles were subject to a form of feudalism called bastard feudalism. Our article on the subject is a bit weak, but here's how it works in simple terms. In other countries during the early and high middle ages, local nobles (dukes and counts and stuff like that) were semi-independent from their king. They technically owed fealty to the king, but in general each duchy or county ran independent from the kingdom or empire they were nominally part of. Indeed, such fiefdoms often had a history that was as old, or older, than their parent kingdom, for example the Duchy of Burgundy and the County of Burgundy, fiefs of France and the Holy Roman Empire respectively, can claim decent from the Kingdom of BurgundyOver time, one of two things happened: either the kingdom became centralized, and the duchies/counties lost their territorial connection (as happened in France in the 15th and 16th centuries) or they didn't, and the kingdom/empire lost its own true identity, becoming mostly ceremonial (as happened in Germany under the Holy Roman Empire). In Post-conquest England specifically, however, there may have never actually been a strong connection to territory, since William the Conquerer really erased most of Englands political structure. Under the Normans, titles were always handed down as political favors rather being strongly held to the land. While there may have been some territorial connection to English titles (for example, the right to levy taxes or conscript people into military service) there were never really feudal "sub-states" in England the way there was on the continent, hence "bastard feudalism." --Jayron32 12:27, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

While England certainly never had semi-independent duchies such as Brittany or Burgundy, the Welsh Marcher lords possessed a lot of personal power, and often ran their domains like rival kingdoms. In fact, it was said that the "King's writ did not extend beyond the Wye".--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the exception was where there was an active threat and a strong "warlord" figure was required, the Prince-Bishops of Durham were another example. Elsewhere, the barons' lands were deliberatly fragmented, which is why the Duke of Devonshire lives in Derbyshire hundreds of miles away. Alansplodge (talk) 14:09, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Reginald Grey, 3rd Baron Grey de Ruthyn was such a warlord, also the de Braose and Mortimers were powerful Marchers.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:18, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for all your answers, amazing. I have a couple of questions, however:

1. So in England, even in the earlier times, no land was handed over when a title was given, it was just the title itself. If you happened to own land, it woudl help for your status in that region, but if not, it is up to you to decide to buy some or stay away from that region. Would some cash be usually handed over to help buying land?

2. The victory titles are amazinga nd a proof that title had really nothing to do with the land: so when the Earl of Ypres was given his title from a foreign place, was the French asked their opinion before giving this title? There could be some issue, like maybe they had planned to use the title for one of their people (well it was a republic, so unlikely in this case, but still, asking permission would be nice...) --Lgriot (talk) 04:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Ypres is a Belgian town not a French one. — AldoSyrt (talk) 18:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Regarding #1: Not exactly. There may have been, in the early days, some land-based rights with some titles. Additionally, there were some nobles (Marcher Lords) and Counts Palatine), which were given some autonomy because of the important positions they held on the frontiers of England. However, within a century or so, even those rights disappeared or became moribund. England certainly had Manorialism, whereby a noble often was granted an estate he could use for personal income; however this is not the same thing as feudalism, especially as it existed on the continent. With the examples of the Marcher Lords aside, England never really had a situation like in France or Germany, whereby an actual territory, or large swath of the kingdom, was granted to a family to rule personally, in perpetuity, in exchange for military commitiment. THAT is what is meant by feudalism. The King gives a province to a Duke or a Count and says "You get to rule this land, collect taxes, etc. In return, when I need you to, you have to raise an army and fight for me" That level of feudalism didn't really exist in England. Nothing akin to the Duchy of Normandy or the Duchy of Burgundy ever really existed in England, with the exceptions noted above. --Jayron32 05:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The Percy family of Northumberland had a lot of power, land, and retainers; in fact, they were often a thorn in the side of the English monarch, even as late as the reign of Elizabeth I And let us not forget the warlord Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick, who was undoubtably the most powerful person in 15th century England.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:25, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Being a powerful noble, with lots of estates and lots of money and lots of pull doesn't necessarily come about via feudalism. Elizabethan times are decidedly post-feudal, even on the continent. --Jayron32 20:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The earls of Northumberland, nonetheless, were powerful warlords in the north, and the first de Perci came to England with The Conqueror. Another case of land-rich nobles, is in Scotland where the Gordons of Huntley owned vast estates in northwestern Scotland which made them practically kings of the Highlands according to author and historian Antonia Fraser. The point must be made that Henry VII abolished the tradtion of nobles retaining private standing armies. A biographer of Barbara Villiers opined that had the nobles possessed private armies in the 17th century Oliver Cromwell would not have been able to defeat the Royalists. Of course, we are now moving well away from the era of feudalism.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:46, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

On point No 2; probably not. Mountbatten of Burma was granted his title in 1946 just as the Burmese were gaining independance, having sided with the Japanese in their efforts to be rid of us, and would have almost certainly (in my view) politely declined. Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Not all Burmese by a long chalk sided with the Japs, and even the Burma National Army ended the war fighting alongside the British against the Japs. Mountbatten was rather notable for being very understanding of Burma's pressing desire for independence - and of Burma's decsion to leave the Commonwealth. DuncanHill (talk) 20:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for your amazing contributions. --Lgriot (talk) 07:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wife of George VII of Imereti

George VII of Imereti and his family

Ok I came across this picture of King George VII of Imereti and his family, his wife and son. Does anybody have any idea who the women is supposed to be because George VII had four wives: Rodami of Kartli, Tamar of Racha, Tamar of Guria and an unnamed daughter of George VI of Imereti. Also is the boy his son George IX of Imereti or another son?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 02:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Any substantive identification will begin with the site where this wall painting is located. The particular wife will only be identifiable if her name is connected with his as patroness of the particular church. No clues are to be found in the strictly conventional representation. --Wetman (talk) 04:27, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

It might help if you found a date of birth for the son depicted in the picture. Try Charles Cawley's Medieval Lands. He uses primary source records, and his dates are very accurate.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I hadn't realised George lived in the 18th century. Cawley stops at the early 16th century as he only deals with medieval royalty and nobility. I had assumed from the picture that George lived earlier. I'm afraid I cannot help you, QEIILS.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused. The article says George lived in the 18th century, yet the painting allegedly dates from the 16th century! Perhaps it's not of George VII but rather an earlier Georgian king, and thus needs to be removed from the article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't she look a lot like Ketevan of Kakheti or is it just how Georgian artist portray any queens in those days? And the date thing makes a lot of sense. It seems the French Wikipedia and Georgian Wikipedia uses the same picture. --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm convinced this painting pre-dates the 18th century. Anyway, QEIILS, thanks to your question here, I was inspired to create an article yesterday on a medieval Georgian consort: Anna of Trebizond. Thank you!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:19, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

More people recognized Ronald McDonald than George Washington

I remember someone in a documentary surveyed random people in a metropolitan area, and more of the people surveyed recognized Ronald McDonald than George Washington. Does anyone which documentary that was, and/or any reliable sources citing the event? 71.54.237.176 (talk) 04:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

It sounds like a scene from Super Size Me in which Morgan Spurlock shows children pictures of Ronald McDonald, and they all recognize him, but none of the kids recognizes Jesus. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 06:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Where did they get pictures of Jesus? Maybe it just wasn't a good likeness.DOR (HK) (talk) 04:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec; great minds think alike) Perhaps you're remembering the film Super Size Me, where little kids all quickly identified Ronald McDonald, but were less sure about Washington, Jesus, etc. —Kevin Myers 06:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I saw a programme where it was opined that if people saw Jesus and Elvis walking on opposite sides of the street, they'd flock to Elvis instead of Jesus. Therefore it doesn't surprise me that more people recognised Ronald McDonald.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:26, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

(talk) 08:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

That probably wouldn't be true for Abraham Lincoln (who has a significant presence in children's TV programming). it's just a function of commercialization. RM is goofy and brightly colored; GW is fairly boring by comparison, and not very much use in getting kids to pester their parents into buying them unhealthy crap. to my mind, there should be a federal law barring commercials from children's television. it's one thing to try to convince an adult to buy something (adults - at least putatively - have the cognitive skills to make up their own minds), but kids are just to easy to manipulate. --Ludwigs2 06:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yeah, but what will fund the children's TV shows? Unless you're suggesting that children's content should only be restricted to public television. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 07:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, no one would recognize Jesus if they actually saw him (presuming that he doesn't have a chorus of angels or something to back him up). Just saying. Buddy431 (talk) 07:21, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I remember seeing a tv show where they tried to reconstruct what Jesus might have looked like using forensic anthropology techniques (based on similar people from his asserted region of birth, family career, presumed social class, etc.). The model they came up with was a fairly short (by modern standards) but likely heavily muscled semitic Jew; fairly far from the emaciated semi-nordic jesus that's usually portrayed in Christian images. Though of course, the halo and the walking on water are kind of give-aways. --Ludwigs2 08:03, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

That's in contrast to the occasional story about someone seeing the face of Jesus or Mary in the pattern on a grilled-cheese sandwich. How they can recognize something when no one knows what they looked like, is anybody's guess. Meanwhile, I would suspect that very few images of Ronald McDonald have turned up on sandwiches. Unless someone put a sticker on the bun. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:56, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I do remember the scene from Super Size Me, which we were shown in school back in eighth grade. I was thinking there was another documentary, or maybe a news program, as well that did it with adults. I'm thinking something like that was done on Fox News in New York City. Anyways, thanks. 71.54.237.176 (talk) 08:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

What Spurlock did in SSM wasn't new. The same study has been done numerous times on various scales using Jesus, G. Washington, Abe Lincoln, Barney the purple menace, Big Bird, Elvis, etc. Dismas|^(talk) 08:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I would guess that outside of the USA this would definitely be true and probably so amongst adults. As you don't specify which country you're asking about, the odds are pretty likely that it's correct. But there is a teensy chance you're assuming we know you mean the USA. --Dweller (talk) 09:05, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, the OP did mention George Washington specifically in the section title. GW is more of an American icon than an international one. I don't think it's that unreasonable to assume the OP is asking about/from the US. Dismas|^(talk) 09:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

You never know about these surveys. If the question were phrased as Ronald McDonald vs. "The Guy on the Dollar Bill", the results might be different. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

He is actually quite difficult to recognise. He's a grumpy-looking bloke in a wig, much like most other men in portraits of the era. --Dweller (talk) 08:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

He's easily recognisable to Americans of my generation; not only because his face graces the dollar bill, but on account of his portrait having decorated many a classroom wall! Along with Abraham Lincoln, he is clearly one of the most recognisable American president to those of us born before the Reality Television generation.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, does being of "the Reality Television generation" (whatever that means) make it difficult to recognise Presidents? Or is it just that they have different portraits on their classroom walls? You're in danger of sounding like a grumpy old woman, Jeanne. ;) Also, I'd point out that being able to pick a portrait and knowing something about history aren't the same thing at all. I know who the first two Prime Ministers of this country were, but I wouldn't necessarily be able to pick a photo of them. Conversely, I wonder how many people who can identify "The Guy on the Dollar Bill" actually know anything about George Washington? FiggyBee (talk) 09:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I haven't a clue about history at all, FiggyBee. It never was my strong point, alas. In fact, I don't even recall who the last US President was. It must be my advanced years catching up with me.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Hehe, I didn't mean to suggest that you know nothing about history, Jeanne. But I'm still not sure what "the Reality Television generation" is, or why they can't recognise George Washington. FiggyBee (talk) 12:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I will enlighten you as to the Reality Television generation. It's the current generation of teenagers, my kids included, who watch every single reality programme there is, regard the personalities as stars; yet know absolutely nothing about politics, books, history, geography, science, art, the cinema, etc. A lost generation who have become, alas, globalised as they are not confined to any particular nation or continent. One could also term them The Pokemon Kids.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:30, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

But it is the way of teenagers not to be interested in such things, Jeanne; were you interested in politics, books, history, or geography as a teenager? Were your classmates? I really don't think that those born in the 90s are going to turn out any less informed or any less political than those born in the 80s, 70s, 60s or before. Also, speaking from personal experience as a hander-out of how-to-vote cards, the younger generations certainly don't have a monopoly on political ignorance or apathy. FiggyBee (talk) 12:56, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually I was; even as a child, I would devour encyclopedias, history bios, historical romances, study the globe. At the same time, I also listened to the Rolling Stones, David Bowie, and did astrology charts and read Anton La Vey's books. I collected costume dolls and voodoo dolls. I was an odd teenager.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I figured, hence "Were your classmates?". :) Anyhoo, people have been complaining since Plato's time about the yoof of today being idle know-nothing miscreants. But people change over time, and the pokemon and reality television will hopefully be replaced, or at least supplemented, by something more substantial as they mature. FiggyBee (talk) 13:55, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

When I read Dweller's reply I thought he was talking about Ronald until I got to "portraits of the era". It has to be said that Ronald McDonald, as a corporate mascot, is designed to be easily recognisable - you could show someone a picture of Ronald McDonald's left foot and they'd still pick him every time. It's a little unfair on poor old George, who was only human, and didn't go in for distinctive facial hair like Lincoln. FiggyBee (talk) 09:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, just imagine what GW could have achieved if only he'd worn enormous red shoes. Or grown shaggy sideburns. --Dweller (talk) 16:02, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

An Ashokan Farewell

Is there anywhere online where there is free sheet music on the actual website for a solo violin for this song?? thanks!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iluvgofishband (talk • contribs) 16:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I love this piece. :) If you Google Image Search it, a lot of results come up. (I can't really read sheet music, but I suspect you'll find what you need easy enough.) ^Avicenna_sis @ 16:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know the piece, but this result from Avicennasis's search should be easy to play on the violin. If you want a longer or more complicated version, have a look at the other results in the search above. 86.178.228.18 (talk) 19:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

It has a sample on the article - Ashokan Farewell, and the full piece is easily found on YouTube. :) WHAAOE ^Avicenna_sis @ 20:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Having listened to the sample, I'd say start with the simple example and remember it doesn't have any ornaments marked on. Once you've got the feel of that, you can ornament it yourself based on listening to the track, or find a more detailed score that someone else has added ornaments to: I think ornamenting it yourself would be quite rewarding, and leave it open for you to play several times through, making each repeat slightly different. I personally find adding slides, for example, quite fun. 86.178.228.18 (talk) 20:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The tune appears in abc notation at The Fiddler's Companion, which also has instructions for converting the abc format to standard music notation. I'm not a fiddler, so didn't take the step to do that. --- OtherDave (talk) 13:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Estate agents aggregation websites for finding property

What websites have different houses on them that are not found on rightmove.com please, particularly for south-eastern england? There are different property search websites, but many of them just have the same content that you get for rightmove. Thanks 92.28.253.63 (talk) 16:42, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I usually find Primelocation.com to be a useful complement to rightmove.com. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Copyright of FTSE index figures

Am I correct in thinking or recalling that the daily published FTSE index number is not protected by copyright because it rapidly becomes common knowledge and is available from a large number of sources? In the same way that news does. Thanks 92.28.253.63 (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

You are probably in the UK, but I will chime in that in the US, the daily published FTSE index number would not be protected by copyright, not for the reasons you mention, but because, as this section of our US copyright article states, "no matter how much work was necessary to create a compilation, a non-selective collection of facts ordered in a non-creative way is not subject to copyright protection." In the US. By the way, the reasons you cite are 100% invalid for determining whether something is copyrightable — any popular book or YouTube video would lose copyright protection if your criteria were used. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The same principle applies in the UK. There could be database rights on some of the detailed figures, I suppose, but not on the simple index closing rate. Copyright doesn't apply to facts, just to the presentation of them, and there is only really one way to present a number so it isn't copyrightable. --Tango (talk) 19:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Does that mean that if someone put on their website a dozen different financial figures each day, out of the thousands published daily, then they would not have any copyright problems? 92.28.253.63 (talk) 19:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe. People can publish things like stock indicies values and generally be safe from copyright infringement. As noted above, a simple number is not itself copyrightable. You cannot wholesale copy the specific presentation of those numbers, so, for example, you can't copy the entire financial section of the Wall Street Journal; but just reporting numbers that are previously reported elsewhere are generally not copyright violations. If you have genuine concerns, however, you should contact an intellectual property lawyer. If you act on any advice given at Wikipedia, and are later sued for copyright infringement, it's your own problem. PLEASE do not take ANY action based upon this conversation. None of us are copyright lawyers, so this idle conversation should not serve as advice on how to act. --Jayron32 19:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Especially since the idea that all numbers are uncopyrightable is wrong. If the numbers are generated through a proprietary and creative formula, for example, or compiled through non-rout methods, they can be copyrightable. (Even if they are random by definition!) Lots of "data" is copyrightable if it is formed by means of a process that is deemed to be creative—it goes from being "data" to being a compilation. It is tricky and if you were going to be doing this yourself you'd definitely want to consult a lawyer first. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

African American

shouldnt there be a link in this article in the section civilrights movement to lynching. i mean, the lynching played an important role in this movement.....? --Corduroycouch (talk) 17:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

There's a link in the section before it that says something about "racially motivated violence." If you think it needs elaboration, by adding a short clause, such as "racially motivated violence, such as lynching." then you should feel free to boldly add it. However, if you wish to discuss such an addition, the appropriate place to discuss changes to an article is at the article's talk page, in this case Talk:African American. Raise the question there, and see what people's response is. --Jayron32 18:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Heuristics for doing difficult and complicated things?

Lets say you want to, for example, start a new budget airline company - WikiJet. You know no more about the industry than the average man in the street.

One heuristic I've heard of is "break big projects down into small steps". The problem is, you don't know what the small steps should be.

A heuristic I've thought of myself is writing a plan like early explorers drew maps of the unknown: Version 1 of your plan/map is very vague, but after you've approached and explored the problem and learnt more, you draw a refined Version 2 and discard Version 1. You repeat this for Version n. (Edit: you'd also need an Exploration Plan added to it as well).

What other heuristics would be useful for this situation please? 92.28.253.63 (talk) 19:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

If you are talking specifically about starting an airline or other company, generally founding a company generally always follows the same basic procedure, starting out with developing a detailed business plan, obtaining initial investment from venture capitalists, organizing an executive board of some sort to oversee the establishment of the company, etc. etc. If you are talking in more vague terms, such as "how to do any complicated task you can't do by yourself", in general then you may be talking about Management, there are lots of management models, the Management article discusses a few of these. --Jayron32 19:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

That classic routine approach is all very well where you have a lot of knowledge of what is concerned, my point is I'm looking for useful heuristics where you do not have that knowledge. 92.28.253.63 (talk) 20:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

It seems pretty simple then: 1) Find someone who DOES know what to do. 2) Ask them to help you or do it for you. At some level, you need to either educate yourself or find someone who actually knows... --Jayron32 20:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

You are using methods for "tame problems". Either nobody knows, or you don't have access to those few people who may know. Stavros is not going to tell you. Have a look at the PDFs references in the Wicked problems article. I speculate that the business multi-millionares are people who can solve wicked problems. 92.28.253.63 (talk) 21:59, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

This is related to Wicked_problem#Messes_and_social_messes where much of the problem is lack of knowledge. 92.28.253.63 (talk) 21:59, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

If you don't know how to approach a problem, and you refuse to find someone who does know how, or cannot, then it seems that you would have to approach the problem in a way resembling the scientific method: Make some assumptions about a small portion of the problem, conduct a small scale experiment (or project) to try to disprove the assumptions, refine them, then repeat until you're pretty sure that you have some good findings. Then move on to a subsequent small portion of the problem. This sounds like your map approach. By the way, for what it's worth, that "wicked problem" article is quite weak and I'd nominate it for deletion. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:32, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

How do you propose using the scientific method to create a budget airline from scratch? I would think it would be of no use at all. 92.29.62.241 (talk) 18:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Another example problem could be "How do you make a billion pounds?". I dont think your suggested approach would work for that. 92.28.253.63 (talk) 23:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

With enough skill and luck, it would. Entrepreneurship isn't that different to the scientific method - you try lots of different things, ditch the ones that don't work and improve the ones that do. --Tango (talk) 02:04, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

You're glossing over the difficulty in the phrase "try lots of different things", as if each thing you do is easy. Each thing, like starting a new budget airline, is not easy but complicated and difficult to do, and that's what this question is about. 84.13.41.146 (talk) 22:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

"Wicked problem" is an interesting concept (and so is "mess"), and the article has 20 references. How do you mean, weak? Granted there's a lot of vagueness, but you could say the same about concepts in psychology or epistemology or many other fields. 213.122.67.216 (talk) 10:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

You have to do lots of research and thinking. There aren't any "heuristics" for it, you just have to do a lot of hard work. --Tango (talk) 22:27, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

It is somewhat similar to software engineering. And the methods of software engineering (Waterfall model, IBM Rational Unified Process, Microsoft Solutions Framework etc.) generally recommend to start from the goal. In other words, you are supposed to find out if you know what you want ("What do I mean by 'airline'?"). After solving this problem (it is not necessarily easy) you will probably know something to work with ("So, I need some airplanes... Now, where can I get an airplane?"). However, if you start from a very general goal (or from one similar to "Go there - I don't know where, bring back that - I don't know what." from a Russian fairy-tale), you shouldn't be surprised if you fail to find any solution. --Martynas Patasius (talk) 23:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth I have a couple of mnemonics which I use when teaching a quick and dirty guide to project management: SCHEMES (space, cash, helpers, equipment, materials, expertise, systems): and hopefully, if you follow that, you won't be left with OSINTOT (oh shit I never thought of that). There are plenty more mnemonics on www.businessballs.com. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:25, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Hear hear. Starting from the endpoint and working backwards is always the best way to work out how to do something (although you have to resist the temptation to actually do anything until you reach the start). After you've worked it out backwards, you start moving forward with the "small steps" you have worked out. The downside of this is that when you hit an unforeseen OSINTOT, you either have to start over, or else try and make two endpoints - the desired result and your current state of affairs - meet in the middle. FiggyBee (talk) 12:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Another possible heuristic that I've just dreamt up is using the historic- or organic-growth method. For example the Microsoft company grew from some comparatively simple software, but added extra modules or cells to do particular functions, and the original cells are also modified and updated, or sometimes killed off. Like the way plants or animals grow from one cell into a complex organism. 92.29.62.241 (talk) 18:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that's a very useful or accurate analogy. Organisms grow in a way that has been established by aeons of trial and error. What you're trying to do is create something new in a intelligent way (Organic growth is a business term, but it refers to something entirely different). Microsoft's development is more a case of "building on success", and I think is only really something that's possible at the forefront of technology (and anti-trust suits); it's something you can chart with hindsight, but not something you can plan into the future. FiggyBee (talk) 18:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Galaxy.com was at the forefront of technology, and Google was a late-comer. 84.13.41.146 (talk) 23:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Embryos grow according to a plan (including feedback loops and logic and hormonal gradients and so on) encoded in their genes. I believe there is or was a theory that embryos go through the stages of evolution in their development. Your task is to design the plan (plus implement it). See Recapitulation theory and Evolutionary developmental biology and Modularity (biology). Perhaps a heuristic for vague problems could be: decide what the modules are - what they do, how they interact with each other and their environment. Then for each module, consider its sub-modules in the same way. Then the sub-modeules of the sub-modules, and so on. Requirements analysis is interesting. The serious book Goal Analysis by RF Mager has procedures for un-vaguing goals and the techniques may be adaptable to this situation. 84.13.41.146 (talk) 23:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Is there a list of common heuristics anywhere? 84.13.41.146 (talk) 22:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

a term for ivory or bone jewelry

I was looking through antique chinese jewelry today in Ebay, and I came across a new descriptive term for bone or ivory carving, which was "vivid" as a material description - not an editorial description, i.e. "Handcraft Carved Vivid ox Bone Cat Jewelry box 81" - these sites have almost no real data on what , how big, etc. a product is - what struck me was the term "vivid" seemed to be used to describe the material itself.

Any ideas on this? (the "cat" refers to the images of cats on the box, not that the bone is from a cat.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.11.198.4 (talk) 19:59, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

What does "Handcraft Carved" signify? Not machine-carved? Then, how has "handcraft" become an adjective replacing "hand-"? In "Cat Jewelry Box" does "Cat" modify jewelry, as in "cat jewelry", such as a cat might wear? Or box, as in "cat box"? In Ebay descriptions, the use of words reflects the culture and educational status of the seller as much as anything.--Wetman (talk) 20:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Over time how has ......

over time how has a guy determined if a girl is beautiful or not?? i mean 500 years ago they would have had a different concept of beauty... right??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iluvgofishband (talk • contribs) 20:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

See Beauty, especially the historical section, and Physical attractiveness. To answer your question: Less than you may think. There is some individual variation among people as to what they find attractive, but spread over all of humanity, certain trends develop among what people find beautiful. In other words, yes, there are differences, but less than you would think. --Jayron32 20:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The portraits of Catherine of Aragon from 500 years ago (when she was about 20) are still pretty hawt. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Ew, you call that hot? People weren't very attractive back then... I would dread getting married. 24.189.90.68 (talk) 21:56, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

She looks pretty good (albeit a bit matronly) in the more realistic paintings. In contrast, the one heading the article suggests that "official portraits" were done by guys whose regular line of work was designing playing cards. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

It seems there are two things that result in someone being considered beautiful/attractive. There is a sense of inherent beauty, which is mostly related to health and fertility. Then there are cultural things related to status. These days we generally think of a tan as being attractive. In Catherine of Aragon's time, for example, they found pale skin attractive. This is due to a change in the economy. In the past, most working people worked outside and had tans, so being pale meant you didn't have to work. These days most jobs are indoors, so having a tan means you are wealthy enough to spend recreational time outside. --Tango (talk) 22:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Umberto Eco recently wrote two books on the subject from the perspective of art history - the titles are pretty self-explanatory: "On Beauty", and "On Ugliness". TomorrowTime (talk) 22:27, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Another big difference has been the shift from a preference for portly figures to a preference for very thin bodies. The reason is similar to the change that Tango has described. Centuries ago, a portly figure was evidence that a person was well off enough to eat well. Today, voluptuous has become overweight, partly because everyone (in rich countries) can eat as much as they wish, so a thinner build is a sign of 1) enough education to know how to stay thin and 2) enough free time and money to work out. Marco polo (talk) 23:14, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

See The Human Face. It's a four part BBC series presented by John Cleese. Being presented by Cleese, it's obviously humorous but it's also quite informative. Basically, the idea of beauty hasn't changed much over the years at all with the biggest exception, according to the series, being in skin tone of caucasian people. Fair skin used to be considered attractive because the wealthy weren't out tending to crops in the daytime sun. In more recent times, tanned skin has gained a preference because now those with money could afford to go to sunny destinations for their holidays. But as far as facial features goes, the same things are considered attractive now as they were hundreds of years ago. Dismas|^(talk) 00:34, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

This sounds like a fairly Euro-centric view of things, though. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Catherine of Aragon was never considered a beauty; neither was Anne Boleyn, for whom King Henry broke with the Church in Rome in order to marry. Women who were deemed beautiful in the 16th centuries include Mary, Queen of Scots, Diane de Poitiers, Ana de Eboli, Lucrezia Borgia, Elizabeth Bathori (who went to drastic lengths in order to preserve it). Another thing, up until the the 1920s, straight hair was considered unattractive.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Also: long necks, e.g. [1]. Putting this all together I arrive at an image of a rotund, giraffe-necked woman, with translucent white skin that the veins show through, as the perfect ideal of medieval European beauty. I doubt my method is valid, though. 213.122.67.216 (talk) 11:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

In mid-15th century England, an extremely high forehead was a symbol of beauty; in order to achieve this, women plucked their hair at the brow as can be seen in the portrait of Queen Elizabeth Woodville.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Beauty is an evolutionary concept. No doubt cultural influences modify it, but in general terms, if you're predisposed to mate with someone who makes viable offspring, your genes are more likely to continue in the gene pool. If, for some reason, you like to mate and not bear children, your genes will be at a disadvantage. This leads us to universals in terms of human beauty. Symmetry is incredibly useful: it demonstrates you don't have some flesh eating disease on your right/left side. There are other things too. Hip/waist ratios appear to be widely similar, despite cultural differences, as do other indicators. What all of these seem to have in common is reproductive success. That shouldn't really be surprising. Shadowjams (talk) 10:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and one might observe that as soon as the need for large families had diminished in the western world, slim, boyish hips became fashionable for women and teenage girls.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Although there are some ubiquitous traits in the perceptions of beauty, it's possible for some quite extreme variations and non-natural modifications to become culturally accepted as 'beautiful.' For instance, check out Lip plate. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:21, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Kant and kairos

According to a book I'm reading ("What Matters Most" by James Hollis), "as Kant pointed out two centuries ago, time exists solely as a construct of the mind, expressed in linear form, sequentially, as chronos and vertically, meaningfully, as kairos." I'm interested in reading more about what Kant meant by this "vertical", "meaningful" conception of time, but can't seem to find any references to it. Does anyone know where Kant talked about kairos? -- noosphere 23:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the Critique of Judgement. There is no excuse for a modern book to not footnote such references. Of course, Kant came to the party a few thousand years after the Greeks discovered time had several meanings. Zoonoses (talk) 02:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, it's not in the index of Critique of Pure Reason, in which Kant treats the nature of time in considerable detail. Kant generally used German not Greek terminology, so I wonder if Kant used the Greek word at all, or just a concept similar to what Hollis understands by it. --82.41.14.1 (talk) 23:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

May 4

Simeon Sakskoburggotski

He served four years as prime minister of Bulgaria from 2001, after reigning as Tsar of Bulgaria from 1943 - 1946. Our article claims he is "one of the few monarchs in history to have become the head of government through democratic elections". It does not provide a source or examples. Does anyone here know another example of a monarch who abdicated or was forced out of power only to be democratically elected some years later? Xenon54 (talk) 00:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Stanisław Leszczyński, for one. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 01:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure? What democratically elected office did he serve in after being ousted as King? He was ousted twice, after the first time he was given some minor principality, and after the second he spent his time as a pensioner in France hanging out in salons. I think you are mistaken. --Jayron32 02:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I suspect the office being alluded to is "King of Poland", for he certainly was a monarch who was elected king, resigned the crown and was later elected king again. He is certainly a monarch who became the head of government through election. Twice. The only thing to cavil about is whether the definition of "democratic" necessarily implies "popular". - Nunh-huh 02:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. He was elected King of Poland. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 02:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Being an elected monarch is not a democratic election. They are different concepts entirely. Lots of monarchies are elective in nature, it doesn't make them democratic. In general, the elections are restricted to a small number of nobles (for the Holy Roman Emperor it was seven, see Prince-elector). In the case of Poland, the election of the Polish king is covered in Free election; it was restricted to the noble class, which was a tiny sliver of Polish society. Additionally, those standing for election needed to be of the noble/royal class themselves, sometimes Polish, and sometimes foreign. It's isn't democracy, its just elective kingship; i.e. the nobles choosing from amongst their own kind who would be king. --Jayron32 02:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

It probably depends on your definition of democracy. Was Athens in the 5th century BCE democratic, if it excluded everyone except free male citizens who had done their military service and paid there debts on time? Was 19th-century United States a democracy, if it excluded women and slaves? Is modern United States a democracy, if it excludes minors and non-US citizens? The nobility in pre-partition Poland acounted for about 10 percent of the population, much more than nobilities in other countries at that time, and more than just a "tiny sliver" of the society.

As for Stanisław Leszczyński, his first election was a complete sham even by 18th-century standards. A small bunch of nobles were rounded up in the election field surrounded by Swedish troops and told to vote for Charles XII's protégé. Stanisław was a mere imposter, an anti-king at that time. It was his second election, this time under France's Louis XV's protection, that was actually genuine and reflected the popular support that he had gathered by then. His second reign didn't last long though, as he was ousted as a result of the War of the Polish Succession. It was after the end of his second reign that he was given the Duchy of Lorraine as a consolation prize. That said, I'd say it's at least a stretch to claim that his case was similar to that of Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. — Kpalion^(talk) 11:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

In 2001 the media in Bulgaria were sometimes mentioning that this case was a precedent in the world's history, but Bulgarian media are not to be always trusted because journalists here are brightly distinguished by their remarkable lack of professionalism. Some googling helped me find this - a Bulgarian website quoting a publication by Reuters of 16 June 2005, a few days before the parliamentary elections of that year. Here's what the first sentence states:

"The only former European monarch to be elected a Prime Minister ought to be a favourite for the elections on 25 June thanks to a policy that has been defined by observers as the most successful since the collapse of the Soviet Union-supported communist regime [in Bulgaria]. Instead, he is struggling to survive politically." This writes Reuters today, commenting the upcoming elections.

Please note that this is a self-made English translation of the Bulgarian translation of the English language publication by Reuters, so it is surely not accurate enough (I couldn't find the original publication in the archives of reuters.com). The most important, however, remains that Reuters refer to Sakskoburggotski as the only example of a European monarch to have done what Xenon54 specified, and mention nothing about the rest of the world. --Магьосник (talk) 03:14, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I assume we're ignoring the numerous instances of elective monarchies? Other than that, I think Simeon's situatuin is unique. I know that Archduchess Walburga of Austria (a direct descendent of the last Austrian monarchs) is an MP in Sweden, but that's not quite the same thing. Gabbe (talk) 08:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

"one of the few monarchs in history to have become the head of government through democratic elections" would also cover someone like Napoleon III who was elected President of France, then later seized power and declared himself Emperor (except I guess he was head of state, rather than head of government). Warofdreams talk 00:50, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Cases of democratically elected leaders who later undemocratically clung on to power are common. We're looking for cases where it was the other way around. — Kpalion^(talk) 08:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

That's not what the quote given in the relevant article specifies. It simply mentions that the individual became head of government through democratic elections, and was a monarch. No mention of the order of these events. Besides, very few heads of government have declared themselves or been declared to be a monarch. Warofdreams talk 10:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Pope's apartment

In the article about Pope, it is stated that a dead Pope's apartment is sealed. How long has this tradition been practiced and for how long are the apartments kept sealed? How old are the oldest sealed papal apartments left? 87.108.22.140 (talk) 08:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The Papal Apartments are reopened (and redecorated) on the election of a new Pope. FiggyBee (talk) 08:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. 87.108.22.140 (talk) 08:55, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. The Papal Apartments article says that there are privately-owned apartments in Vatican City. I am surprised that there is any real estate not owned by the church/state in Vatican City. Where can I learn more about this? The Hero of This Nation (talk) 15:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't say any such thing. It uses the term "private apartments" to refer to the areas in which the Pope lives, as opposed to "state apartments" where he works, accepts visitors, etcetera. The current Pope's private quarters are relatively modest, compared to the areas of the palace occupied by Pontiffs in earlier times. FiggyBee (talk) 15:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Thanks. The Hero of This Nation (talk) 21:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

When did the medieval day begin?

Does anyone happen to know when the day actually began for medieval Europeans? Was it at midnight like it is for us? Or perhaps sunrise or noon? I am curious because sometimes a birthdate is given as two different dates, for example 7/8 December. I would greatly appreciate any answers. Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

See for example the final paragraph of Julian day#History. Gabbe (talk) 13:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

It says the day began at noon. I had suspected Julian days (or the medieval day) didn't begin at midnight. This would mean that someone born let's say 6 April 1357 could very well have been born on 7 April, but if his or her birth had occurred before noon, it would have been recorded as 6 April. Thank you so much, Gabbe. This explains why Mary, Queen of Scots is given two different DOBs (7/8 December 1542).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, in her case, I think it has more to do with disagreement among biographers. See [2], [3] or [4] for example. Gabbe (talk) 14:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe the consensus among her biographers is that she was born 8 December, despite Leslie having claimed the 7th. Mary, herself celebrated her birthday on that date.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:33, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I doubt the average person was thinking in technically defined astronomical days, though. For most (even educated) medieval people, like most modern people, I expect the day started when they got up in the morning. One thought; clocks were rare and inaccurate even in the late middle ages, so perhaps such double dates arise from midnight births when no-one could tell exactly what day it was? FiggyBee (talk) 13:31, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

That's also a plausible theory which I have considered. A woman who went into labour late on the night of 7 December might actually give birth in the morning of the 8th; however, it would be recorded as the 7th. There's the 20th century case of George Harrison, when the opposite happened. During the confusion brought about by the bombing raid which was going on at the time of his birth, the nurse wrote down the correct time of 24 February 1943, 11.45 PM; however, it was registered after midnight so they wrote it down as 25 February!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:38, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

That story is given the lie here, Jeanne. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

It was John who was supposed to have been born during an air raid, anyway. (But probably not.) Adam Bishop (talk) 20:56, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

According to Albert Goldman in his bio of Lennon, the latter was born at 6.30 PM 9 October 1940 during a heavy bombing raid on Liverpool, and the babies were placed underneath the hospital beds for protection. This could be easily verified, I'm sure. As for Harrison lying about his DOB in order to obtain a better chart; well, he was wasting his time as he only managed to get an erroneous one. Astrology is based on precision. I was lucky to have had a doctor who was extremely precise when it came to recording my time of birth. I was born at 10.59 PM and it says this on my birth certificate. Most doctors or midwives would have just rounded it off to 11.00 PM!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:14, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The Julian day is not a medieval concept (as you can read in the "History" paragraph linked above). Days did not begin at noon, they began whenever the sun came up, if you're a regular peasant or whatever. If you're a monk and your day depends on praying the Liturgy of the Hours, then your day probably begins at midnight or 3 am (or 6 am maybe...it varies and probably also depends on the sunrise anyway). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:31, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Adam Bishop on this, except that according to our article Day, in medieval Europe, the day was considered to begin at sunset, as it does in Jewish tradition. It is probable that a medieval event recorded as occurring between or on the cusp of two different dates would have occurred between sunset of the first date and sunrise of the second date. Marco polo (talk) 14:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

It's also possible it began at Prime, which means first hour. We have the example of the Battle of Agincourt which occurred on 25 October 1415, recorded as the feast of St Crispin which falls on the 25th October. So in this case they didn't date it from sunset.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Marco, you are referring to the Florentine Calendar which was only used in Italy. Hmm, that would explain why I have seen Lucrezia Borgis's DOB as 19 April 1480 when all the encyclopedis give it as 18 April 1480. This is very confusing though because if we haven't got the hour of birth, we don't know whether they were born 18 April before sunset or 18 april after sunset (making it really 17 April.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

For the purposes of prayer (as Adam mentions as one case) then Prime would probably be considered the beginning of the day (I believe Prime means the period from the beginning of the day to an hour later, rather than a specific time - hence "first hour" not "hour one"). I think there is some variation in the definition of Prime, though (it can be the first hour after sunrise, or after 6am, depending on whether you like the times to be consistent from day to day - of course, the latter only works if you have a half-decent clock). The length of an hour also changes under some definitions as the length of daylight changes so that there are also 12 hours of daylight. --Tango (talk) 15:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Prime as used in liturgy means the first hour of daylight. The use of the term prime does suggest that some considered the day to begin at sunrise. However, Italy was in some ways the hub of medieval Europe, so Italian practice would have been influential. In such a situation it would make sense to give two dates for an event that occurred at night. (One date would apply if the day were reckoned to begin at sunset, the other if it began at sunrise.) I'm not sure how the date of the Battle of Agincourt is relevant. The battle happened during daytime, so it would have had the same date regardless of whether the day was considered to begin at sunset or sunrise. As for the birth of Lucrezia Borgia, if you have seen both 18 and 19 April, that would suggest that she was born after the sun set on 18 April but before it rose on 19 April. Marco polo (talk) 15:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Then Mary, Queen of Scots was likely born between sunset of 7 December and sunrise of 8 December. It was noted by contemporaries that she celebrated her birhtday on 8 December. Things are beginning to fall into place now. OK, what about the Byzantines. In an article I recently created a contemporary source said the daughter of the Emperor was born around April 6, Good Friday 1357. Well, I checked and discovered that Easter fell on 9 April in 1357, making 7 April the date for Good Friday. Wouldn't that indicate that the girl was born sometime between sunset 6 April and sunrise 7 April?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:45, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Seems plausible. Marco polo (talk) 19:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate everybody taking their time to answer my question. Thank you fellow Wikipedians!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Talent<->Denarius exchange rate

Around how many denarii was a Greek talent worth in the Classical era? 64.179.155.63 (talk) 14:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

If our articles Attic talent and Denarius are anything to go by, a talent (which was 26kg of silver) was 2340 days' wages in Greece in 377 BC. A denarius was one days' wages in Rome in a period several hundred years later. Thus, very crudely, a talent was worth 2340 denarii. On the other hand, if you want to talk about how much 26kg of silver would have been worth in later antiquity, the answer will be greater. In 211 BC, when the denarius was introduced, 26kg of silver would make 5777 4.5 gram coins. By the end of the Roman Empire, the actual silver content of the denarius was negligible. FiggyBee (talk) 14:31, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

On the other other hand, if you want an actual ancient Greek coin, the drachma was the Greek equivalent of the denarius, and they'd probably be considered roughly interchangeable by traders. FiggyBee (talk) 14:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I suspect the OP is asking because of the Bible story "Parable of the talents". The article discusses contemporary equivalents for 1st century AD values for those monetary amounts, quoted to the OED. --Jayron32 14:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

flea in flea market --- what does it mean?

What does "flea" in flea market mean? I would appreciate an etymological explanation. Thank you very much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.202.161.139 (talk) 16:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The flea market article's history section has some theories. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 16:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The "flea", comes from the "second-hand" bit, meaning you could be buying more than you bargened-for! Caveat emptor, clear? MacOfJesus (talk) 23:23, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Times Square bomber + Freedom of Information

Why would reporters state (at the end of this article) that Faisal Shahzad became a citizen and that's what helped investigators seize him because they had a recent photo and were able to have witnesses identify him with it? It's like the CSI effect, allowing criminals to get around police? Don't the police give reporters information but then tell them that, in the hopes of not blowing future cases, such details should not be published? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 16:37, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Your question carries with it the assumption that the information that the assistance lent by the person's citizenship application is information of the sort which the police would prefer not to be published. But it is just an assumption. A rule of thumb, when dealing with the press, is not to tell them things that you do not wish to see published. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

If you're asking, do police consider this kind of thing before telling things to reporters, the answer is yes, definitely. They can and will tell reporters some things but tell them not to reprint them if they think it will harm the investigation. If you're asking, in this instance, does revealing the "methods" of the investigation harm future investigations, that is not necessarily clear, but presumably the police did think about this before releasing the information. If you're saying, "won't this lead to terrorists in the future not becoming citizens"—maybe, sure, but I'm not sure a one-off case is a good basis on which to try and make future policy. The 9/11 hijackers, for example, did not become citizens—it's not like all foreign terrorists up until this point have become citizens first and been caught because of it, and this one fact will change things significantly. Note that in this case, 1. the photo thing only mattered because the guy's bomb didn't blow up, 2. there were VIN plates that he didn't know about under the engine block, and 3. this sort of thing is only helpful after the fact anyway (it is not preventative). Personally if I were inclined to worry about information given out, I would worry about other things, like making it clear that he had the wrong type of fertilizer, for example, which is a clear sign to wannabes in the future to pay attention to that sort of thing more closely (I personally think it would have been better if they had just said it was an amateur job that wouldn't quite have worked and left it at that, without getting into the specifics). But the reasons they release things (or things get out whether they want them to) are often complicated and it can be hard to figure out what the right balance is. Attempting to draw lines of secrecy around everything potentially threatening can itself be a hinderance to law enforcement and preventative measures. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The more I look at the article, I think it's worth noting that this is all information that was filed in open court when the filed charges. I'm not sure how much they could have limited explaining how they knew it was the right guy; that's necessary if they are going to charge him, I am pretty sure. Now maybe they could have gone to the press there and said, "please don't tell anyone how we knew," but that probably wouldn't have been super effective in today's media environment, and it would all be there in the public court records anyway. There are some instances where the government can invoke secrecy overs its "sources and methods" to keep this stuff out of the public record, but they are controversial and generate a lot of unwanted publicity on their own. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Why would the police release this information? Well, in doing so they are saying "Look - the procedures we follow as a nation when admitting people to citizenship serve to protect you." They are doing it to reassure. DuncanHill (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Eh? I'm not sure that follows. I see it as more of a, "look how clever we are, taking things from one source to another and using them to quickly figure out who it was." On the other hand, I'm a little confused as to how they knew to show his picture to the car guy in the first place. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:56, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

As part of the United States immigration process, applicants are fingerprinted. Additionally, CIS will have recent passport/green card photos on file. caknuck _° needs to be running more often 05:00, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's a secret that when you go through the immigration and citizenship process, you send photos of yourself to the government. And certainly police departments know not to tell reporters anything they don't want to see in print. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

(OR) Speaking as a reporter, there have been a number of times when police give out information they don't want published. Sometimes it's done to give us a better background of the situation, so that we might better be able to translate the story into layman's terms. Other times it's because they are legally obligated to provide certain information. For example, when I make routine checks of court dockets, I will occasionally find a report indicating charges have been filed against someone, and a warrant is out for his/her arrest. Often the report has a little tag on it, requesting "do not publish." I am under no obligation to adhere to that request, but often it makes sense to do so, because if I help the cops out this time, there may come a time when they'll give me preferential treatment over my competitors. Of course, if in my opinion the case is serious enough to warrant immediate publication, it will run, usually after I've told the police my intention. (That is a rare instance, though.) — Michael J 21:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Safe deposit boxes after death

I recently received something in the mail from my alma mater, telling me that if I wanted to bequeath them something, I shouldn't keep my will in the safe deposit box: apparently many U.S. states prohibit anyone from opening a safe deposit box after the owner's death unless there's a court order. Two questions — (1) why would such a law be in place? I can't see why the law would more carefully protect a safe deposit box than other property of a deceased person. (2) If no will has been found, but someone suggests to the probate court that the will could be in a safe deposit box, why wouldn't it be normal for the court to order the box to be opened? Nyttend (talk) 21:41, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Death presents a great opportunity for theft and with a document like a will in which things divert to the intestate heirs in the absence of a will you want to be sure yours is preserved in a manner where records of all sorts are generated when it is disturbed. 71.100.1.71 (talk) 22:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC).

Yes, but obviously many people don't keep their wills in safe deposit boxes. I'm not asking for advice on what to do with a will; I'm simply curious why the law might restrict access to safe deposit boxes in a way that it wouldn't restrict access to a dead individual's other possessions. Nyttend (talk) 04:23, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Depositing anything in a bank box (normally) is an act of a single person's will. A very private one. There is no counter-party (as is the case of bank deposits), no brokers (stock purchase), no state registrars (houses, cars) no witnesses of any kind. "Other property" is safeguarded by contracts and/or public records; contents of a bank box are not. The bank does not know what the client holds there (and if it does, it's a whole different deal). The only way to find out is to open the box. The uncertainty, the absence of written evidence, the ease of misappropriation (as well as the bankers' CYA reflex) compelled the lawmakers to provide added safeguards - court orders, witnesses etc. Joint lease of a box (normally by spouses) makes the whole affair easier for the banks and the legal system (survivor normally retains unlimited access) but may backfire to the owners (cf. "Casino"). NVO (talk) 10:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

You'd usually leave the will with your executor. DuncanHill (talk) 10:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

dried up river beds

The place in Southern Iraq where the Sumerians built the first city, is this where the two rivers that dried up passed nearby and where desert now stands and if so were the presence of these rivers the reason the first cities were established here and if so was it due to trade via the rivers or agricultural development? 71.100.1.71 (talk) 22:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean Tigris and Euphrates? Gabbe (talk) 22:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The city in question is likely Ur, located in modern southern Iraq. At the time, Ur was a coastal city, located at the outlet of the Euphrates. It is now many miles inland, owing to silting in the Tigris-Euphrates delta, and also many miles from the Euphrates, owing to the river drifting across its floodplain, a common occurance for large rivers. The site was abandoned by 500 BC, likely for both of these reasons. --Jayron32 23:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

You may not be aware that dried-up river beds are often referred to as Wadi. The Thames River in London has the same problem of silt deposits. MacOfJesus (talk) 00:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

There are 2 additional rivers that once flowed into the Gulf, as satellite photos revealed some years back. They are dry but their channels are still observable. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

You may also be interested by our article on the Sarasvati River. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

May 5

Law of Consanguinity in the Royal Families of Medieval Europe

It seems like throughout the Middle Ages it was a sin to marry any cousins even 6th cousins at times, so European had to go out in every direction of Europe to find a sutiable non-related bride ie. Anna of Kiev and Henry I of France. But then it seems like in later times it became okay as long as you get the Popes permission. How royalties of Europe transact from that anti-incest/inbreeding to marrying first cousins by the 19th century? Also this was the case in Western Catholic Europe but was it the same in the Byzantine East because their seem to be some intermarriages there also?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 00:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

What is your source for it being illegal to marry 6th cousins? Your common ancestor with a 6th cousin would typically be someone that died about 100 years before you were born - you are very unlikely to have any idea they are your 6th cousin. --Tango (talk) 01:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

This is completely wrong; read about Spanish kings. [5] Shii (tock) 01:20, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

In canon law consanguinity was prohibited up to the fourth degree - but only after the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 (long after Anna and Henry I). Before 1215, it varied a lot, from one degree to seven degrees. Our Affinity (canon law) article has some info about this. Generally four degrees was the limit even before 1215, though. But in reality it was all political. If you thought you could get away with it, you could marry your first cousin, with special permission from the church. The church, of course, could at any time annul the marriage as incestuous, if you got on their bad side. And there was always a political reason to marry far outside your family, like Anna and Henry. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay maybe it wasn't sixth cousin I read it somewhere. This is too truth because I'm talking about Europe before the 1400s or 1300s, so the Habsburgs wouldn't apply. And I never got these political marriages between countries that are so seperate like the Grand Duchy of Kiev and the Kingdom of France. Wouldn't political marriages be more beneficial for it was between neighboring countries? --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 03:24, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. There can be many good reasons, such a facilitating trade, why such a marriage would be organized. After all, if French merchants get a monopoly on certain trade goods coming out of Kiev, and visa-versa, it could be a very useful treaty. --Jayron32 03:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Right. Also, in this particular case, Henry already had a couple of dead wives, and was hardly a king at all, he controlled only the Ile-de-France. Who would want to marry him? He's lucky he got Anna, really. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:57, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Having a wife within the prohibited degrees, was also a convenient way to later get rid of her if she failed to provide children, or he desired to marry somebody else.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Henry VIII tried to use her marriage to his brother to get rid of Catherine of Aragon, but the Pope wouldn't go for it, mainly because her nephew was Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 18:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Exactly, otherwise the Pope would have granted the annulment. In point of fact, Henry VIII was related to all his wives, through their mutaul descent from King Edward I of England. Historian Antonia Fraser outlines this in The Wives of Henry VIII.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Changes in human morphology

I recently took a college course on Herpetology and found the notion of amphibians being able to change their phenotype in order to become cannibals very interesting. This usually results from a aquatic environment low in resources. I'm not much of a writer, but this gave me the idea for a story in which humans somehow take on a similar form during times of starvation and forced cannibalism (like the legend of the Donner Party for example). Like cannibalistic amphibians, the humans' jaw structures would enlarge and their teeth would elongate to allow for eating larger prey. This could be used as an alternative explanation for vampirism, lycanthropy, and zombiefication. No demons, just science.

Now, I know that mammals lack the ability to change their phenotype of their own volition. My question is whether there has ever been studies on short term changes in human morphology, particularly the face? I know there has been studies in the past on why couples look like each other, but what about large populations of mixed races? For instance, I've noticed that Black Europeans have a distinct look to them that is unlike Black Americans. I realize there is probably a fair amount of intermingling, but that can't account for all the Black Europeans that I have seen. I have even seen this in the features of 2nd generation Chinese. Some of my friends have softened features compared to their parents and relatives living in China. Is there something that causes a person to take on the features of the surrounding group in order to facilitate better social integration?

If there has been such a study, I would like to explain that the change in cannibalistic humans is an extreme version of this. Sort of like a defensive survival strategy that is locked in our DNA. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The big difference between second generation imigrants and first generation imigrants is that the second generation grew up in the environment. Thus, as you note, the second generation Chinese Americans will have grown up in America, and thus had a very different diet, especially during their developmental years, than their parents did, growing up in china. Do not discount what 20-30 years of eating different foods will do to your appearance. --Jayron32 03:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec)All our knowledge in genetics and studies on facial features shows that there isn't anything that causes the social environment to change the facial features, your bones don't "try to look like your friends' ". I guess what you are observing in your friends compared to their parents is maybe a better balanced diet during childhood, and a better medical attention, which could help people having better skin. Or maybe they are just younger! --Lgriot (talk) 03:08, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Appearance is partly a matter of perception. Clothing, haircut, manicure have bearing on appearance. Behavior also would contribute to the perceptions others have of you. I agree that diet would also have bearing on appearance. Bus stop (talk) 03:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I never really thought of diet. I guess that would account for my Black European example as well. The brief article I read about couples looking the same stated it was caused from them sharing similar experiences. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:31, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Ghost -- I think you might be oversimplifying evolutionary theory. Adaptations based on mutations are only selectively passed onto subsequent generations if they are helpful and aid those who possess them to live longer/mate more. If humans were faced with a choice of cannibalism or death, and they chose cannibalism, beneficial mutations allowing said humans to better adapt for such a situation would not occur if humans maintained all of their other social graces, such as eating with flatware, saying "please," "thank you" and "pass the ribs" and altogether desisted from sabotage of each others' lives and meals. If everything were the same but we began to eat human-burgers instead of beefburgers, there'd be no real benefit (and therefor, need) to pass on larger jaws or longer teeth. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 03:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I have taken a history of life on earth evolution course prior to my Herp class, so I know all about mutation, genetic drift, and how evolution takes place over long periods of time. This is just a fictional story, so I'm bending the rules of science a little. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Regarding fictional stories which feature human evolution, see Galápagos (novel). And read it; its pretty good stuff. --Jayron32 03:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Just read the synopsis, very interesting. I'll have to look that up. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 03:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Not a morphological change, but Poul Anderson's "The Sharing of Flesh" (1968) deals with evolutionary changes relating to cannibalism. Essentially, during a time period when an isolated human colony's small population was forced to practice cannibalism to survive, a genetic malady arose that prevented young males from starting puberty unless they got a certain dose of hormones only available by eating human flesh. Under normal circumstances, natural selection would have prevented this condition from being perpetuated but, because of the cannibalism and the small population size, it persisted even as the planet's population and resources stabilized so that cannibalism became a cultural norm for those living on the planet. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 06:52, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

What the H-E-double-toothpicks was that all about? DOR (HK) (talk) 08:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I suspect it is an attempt to avoid giving away plot spoilers? It would make more sense if the poster said so (e.g. "Spoilers (highlight with your mouse if you want to see it)." --Mr.98 (talk) 14:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

When it comes to your perceived anthropological differences between "Black Europeans" and "Black Americans" I believe the answer is this: Most African Americans are descendants of slaves originally (mostly) from Western Africa in the 15th through 19th centuries. "Black Europeans", on the other hand, are much more likely to be either first, second or third generation immigrants from areas of Africa that were poverty-, starvation-, war-, or drought-stricken during the 20th century, for example Somalia (though this will of course vary widely from one European country to the next). There is much more human genetic variation in Sub-Saharan Africa than anywhere else in the world, so where in Africa one's medieval ancestors lived will have a fairly significant impact on one's biological anthropology. Gabbe (talk) 11:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that what you are seeing is the likely different in immigration patterns. I would also note that the ancestors of African-Americans are from West and Central Africa, and that many are, at some point or another, mixed with either European and/or Native American "stock". The result is that many (perhaps most) African-Americans will look quite different than, say, someone from Somalia or Ethiopia or even South Africa. Africa is a continent of tremendous human diversity (from the towering Maasai to the diminutive Efé), but the over-representation of a few regions in the Americas, as a result of the Atlantic slave trade, often leads to an assumption of homogeneity. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

One well-known change in bodily function in response to environment is that how much you can sweat partly depends on how hot it was when you were a young child... AnonMoos (talk) 09:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

What is the mechanism of that? Is sweating as an adult partially a function of settings the body made to itself when the person was a child? Just curious. Sorry for going off-topic. Bus stop (talk) 14:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Presumably, but I don't know much about it in detail. The body is adjusting itself to the climate experienced as a young child, but I don't know the exact mechanism(or whether anybody knows the exact mechanism). AnonMoos (talk) 16:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not majoring in any science-based degree in school, so I do not always make the most astute observations. Although, I am extremely interested in the subject of evolution.

I guess I could always just come up with a scenario in which a scientist conducts experiments that go bad. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 13:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

What would happen if Greece defaulted on their debt payments?

What would happen if Greece defaulted on their debt payments? --33rogers (talk) 07:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The (unhedged) holders of those assets would incur a loss if they bought them when the market believed there would be no deafult. Also, Greece would not be able to borrow at reasonable rates which is especially bad for a country whose government has been used to spending more than its tax revenues. Is there something more specific you want to know? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 08:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

First of all it isn't Greece, it's the Greek government. Cases worth of study are Argentine economic crisis (1999–2002) and the 2008–2012 Icelandic financial crisis. Please note that all previous experiences have been with countries which issued their own currency. IMHO no one is really sure. If the Greek government defaults in its debt payments no one is going to lend it more money (would you lend me money if you knew that I was not going to pay you back?). If no one lends the Greek government money it won't be able to pay its public servants. This could lead to a cold stop of most public service. A better comparison could be the ongoing 2008–10 California budget crisis. Flamarande (talk) 08:15, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

See also our article on national bankruptcy (in serious need of improvement, sadly). Warofdreams talk 10:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Governments rarely absolutely default on their debt. Instead, they typically reach an agreement with their creditors involving debt restructuring. The creditors, facing the alternative of a total loss, will typically agree to accept a later maturity date and/or a partial loss (a reduction in the principal and/or interest rate on the debt), in return for the government's promise to make good on the restructured debt. In the case of Greece, some commentators, such as this one, have argued that Greece cannot possibly repay its present debt on the promised terms because the austerity plan needed to keep the debt from expanding will cause the economy to contract such that the debt, compounded by interest, will grow relative to the economy such that even the recent financial pledges by other European countries will not cover the country's debt service or other obligations. If Greece does restructure, many banks and individuals, mainly in Europe, will face losses amounting potentially to hundreds of billions of euros.

A partial Greek default by itself would bankrupt few banks or individuals outside of Greece. The danger is that a Greek default or restructuring would further undermine investor confidence in the government debt of other countries perceived as potentially insolvent, such as Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland, or even the United Kingdom. The debt of Spain alone is so large that other European governments might not be able to bail it out without putting their own solvency in question. The debt of Italy is considerably larger than that of Spain. A partial default or restructuring by either of these large southern European countries would probably be large enough to cause many European banks to fail, including banks in France and Germany. This would be a serious financial crisis that could potentially lead to a breakup of the euro zone. Marco polo (talk) 15:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

--33rogers (talk) 02:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Codification of interpolations in Bhagvad-Gita

There is no information/discussion about the codification of interpolations in Bhagvad Gita, which would go a long way in removing many a misconception about some of the contentious verses there in. I have identified 110 interpolations and codified the same in my article 'Mundane distortions in the divine discourse of Bhagvad-Gita' which if published in your site is likely to change the way the world would approach this ancient work. Hope you would like to have it. Regards, BS Murthy.

P.s. The article is submitted here for your appreciation of the same.

Article text collapsed here

Mundane distortions in the Divine discourse of Bhagvad-Gita William von Humboldt who wrote seven-hundred verses in praise of the Bhagvad-Gita averred that it is the most beautiful, perhaps the only true philosophical song existing in any known tongue. All the same, the boon of an oral tradition that kept the divine discourse of yore alive for millennia became the bane of the Gita going by the seemingly mundane distortions it had to endure. Strangely it was Sir Edwin Arnold the Englishman who sought to separate the divine wheat from the mundane chaff by branding s23-s27 of ch8 as the ranting of some vedanti in his century old ‘Song Celestial’. While interpreting the Gita in English verse an attempt was made by the author to identify the interpolations in it and codify the same for the benefit of the modern reader. One way to scent the nature of these, if not zero in on every one of them, is to subject the text to the twin tests of sequential conformity and structural economy. Sequential conformity is all about uniformity of purpose sans digression and structural economy but represents the absence of repetitiveness. The pundits and the plebeians alike aver that the philosophy of the Gita is the practice of disinterested action. In this context it may be noted that while postulating nishkaama karma, the theory of disinterested action, Krishna was critical of the ritualistic aspects of and the mundane expectations from the Vedic ceremonies (s42 - 46 and s53 of ch.2.). Given that the pristine philosophy of the Gita is to tend man on the path of duty without attachment, the about turn in s9-s16 of ch.3 that formulate the procedural aspects of the rituals and the divine backing they enjoy cannot stand to either reason or logic. Such contradictory averments attributed to Krishna wherever occur can be taken as interpolations and the same are delved into in this article. Next on the agenda is the aspect of structural economy and one finds the similitude of a given content in many a sloka in the same or in a different context throughout the text. Obviously, some of them are interpolations but which were the originals and which are the imitations could be impossible to find out for they smugly fit into the overall structure. Whatever, save lengthening the discourse, they do not belittle the same and fortunately not even tire the reader, thanks to the exemplary charm of Sanskrit, which for the 18th Century British intellectual Sir William Jones ‘is of wonderful structure, more perfect than Greek, more copious than Latin and more exquisitely refined than either.’ Identified here are 110 slokas of deviant character or digressive nature that can be taken as interpolations with reasonable certainty. Readers may like to mark these verses in their Gita and then read it afresh by passing over them for a refreshing experience. Besides the interpolations s9-s16 of ch.3, s17, s18 and s24 of the same are clear digressions. Such others in the rest of the chapters wherever they crop up are dealt as follows: Chapter - 4: It should not be lost on one that s11’s return of favour by the Lord is juxtaposing to the stated detachment of His as espoused in s14 of the same chapter. On the other hand, s12 that is akin to s20, ch.7, itself an interpolation, and s13 the contentious chaatur varnyam mayaa srustam - do not jell with the spirit of the philosophy. Why hasn't Krishna declared in s 29 ch.9, ‘None I favour, slight I none / Devout Mine but gain Me true’. Slokas 24 to s32 that are of religious/ritualistic nature seem clearly out of context and character. Prior to this seemingly interpolated body of eleven slokas, the nature of the Supreme Spirit and the conduct of those who realize it are dealt with. Thus, the discontinuity in the text brought about by the body of these interpolative slokas would be self-evident. And s34 that advises Arjuna to seek wise counsel is irrelevant in the context of the discourse fashioned to set his doubts at rest in the battlefield itself. Chapter-5: S18 avers the Omnipresence of the Supreme in Brahmans, cows, elephants, dogs and dog eaters. This tasteless description could be but an interpolation as it ill behoves Krishna’s eloquence and sophistication of expression seen throughout. Incidentally, the succeeding s19 makes it clear that whoever recognizes Him in all beings attains the Supreme State in life itself. S27-s28 that deal with yogic practices and s29, which asserts the Supreme as the beneficiary of sacrificial rituals, are but interpolation for reasons that bear no repetition. Chapter - 6: S10-s17 deal with aspects of ascetic practices which are but square pegs in the round philosophical hole the discourse is and so are interpolations, even going by what is stated in the very opening verse, ‘Forego none if forsake chores / Eye not gain ’n thou be freed’. S41 and s42 are clearly interpolations not only for affecting the continuity of the text but also for what they contain. S41 would have us that those who perform the asvamedha (ritualistic horse sacrifice) would reach heaven to be born again rich. Likewise, s 42 would have us that, ‘or such would be born in learned homes’. Chapter-7: S20-s23 besides affecting the continuity in character of the discourse, would advocate worship of gods for boon seeking that Krishna chastises is s42-s44, ch.2 and that renders them interpolations. Chapter – 8: It can be seen that s5 places the cart before the horse. Besides, s9-s14 too are interpolations going by their content that’s out of context. It is worth noting that s1-s4, s6-s8 and s15-s22, if read together would bear an unmistakable continuity of argument that the interpolations deprive. And s22 is a seemingly concluding statement of the Lord that only through un-swerved devotion the Supreme could be reached from which there is no return (s21). Then appear s23 to s27 which if literally taken would imply that if one dies when the moon is on the ascent he would go to heaven and, to hell if it’s other way round. Needless to say, these slokas spelling superstition in an otherwise thought-elevating treatise are but interpolations which Sir Edwin Arnold dismissed as the work of some vedanti and thought it fit, justifiably at that, not to include them in his ‘Song Celestial’. In this connection it may be noted that the relationship between the state in which a person dies and his imminent rebirth is covered in s14 - s15 of c14, which seem to be authentic. Chapter -9: S7, that contravenes s15-s16 of ch.8, and which echoes interpolative s18-s19 of the current chapter, is an interpolation. Also s15 of is but a digression to facilitate the interpolations in s16-s21 and s23-s25. What is more, there could be some omissions from the original, given the seemingly incomplete exposition of the promised dharma in s2. Further, in s 30 and s 31, it is said that even a reformed sinner is dear and valuable to Him. Then in s 32 it is stated that women, Vaisyas and Sudras could win His favour through devotion, sounding as if they are all in an inferior league. Leave aside the Lord's averment in many a context in this text that the Supreme Spirit lies in all beings, it is specifically stated in s34 of ch.10 that He symbolizes all that is glorious in woman. Given this, and the background of the interpolations, s32 surely is a case of trespass. S33 of this chapter is but a jointing medium of the said obnoxious verse and in itself is patronizing in nature towards the virtuous Brahmans and thus is an interpolation. Chapter – 11: Owing to the improbability of their being, s9-s14, make an amusing reading. S3 states that Krishna grants Arjuna the divine sight required to espy His Universal Form. Of course, the ESP that Vyasa granted Sanjaya (s75 ch.18) might have enabled him to monitor the goings on at the battleground in order to appraise the blind king Dhrutarashtra about the same. Thus, only from Arjuna’s averments could have Sanjaya gathered what he was divining of the Universal Form, which obviously was beyond his (Sanjaya) own comprehension. But s10-s14 would have him describe the Universal Form as though he himself was witnessing the same, even before Arjuna utters a word about it. In this context it is worth noting that the Lord made it clear in s52, ‘Ever craved gods ’n angels too / Just to behold what thee beheld’. Thus, the Universal Form that was seen by Arjuna surely was beyond the scope of Sanjaya's ESP and hence, s9-s14 that picture beforehand what Arjuna would witness later on are clear interpolations. Contrast this with the parallel situation in s50-s51, when the Lord reassumes His human form, but handled differently by Sanjaya. The s29 which seeks to emphasize what was already pictured in s28, albeit with not so appropriate a simile, could be but an interpolation. Chapter -13: One might notice that s10, advocating asceticism to which Krishna is opposed, doesn't jell with the rest, either contextually or philosophically, and thus should be seen as an interpolation. S22, which states that the Supreme Soul lay in beings as a sustainer, consenter, enjoyer and overseer, contravenes its very nature expostulated in s16-s18, ch.15. Besides, as can be seen, it affects the continuity between s21 and s23 of this chapter. S30, akin to s15 is an irrelevant interpolation. Chapter- 14: In this chapter that details the three human proclivities - virtue, passion and delusion- s3, s4 and s19 that deal with the Nature and the Spirit are digressive interpolations. Chapter – 15: S9, s12, s13, s14 and s15 being digressions are clearly interpolations. Chapter – 16: S19 which implies that the Supreme Spirit condemns to hell those who hate Him is an obvious interpolation that contravenes Krishna’s affirmative statement in s29 ch.9 and other such averred in many a context in this text. Chapter-17: S11-s13 that deal with the virtuous, the passionate and the deluded in ritualistic sense and s 23 -28 concerning Om, Tat, Sat and Asat of the Vedic hymns are clear interpolations for reasons the reader is familiar with. However, s7-s10 that deal with the food habits of the virtuous, the passionate and the deluded would pose a problem in determining whether or not they are interpolations. Can eating habits be linked to the innate nature of man in an infallible manner? Perhaps, some future research and analysis might resolve the universality or otherwise of this averment, and till then, it is appropriate to reserve the judgment on these. Chapter -18: One can note that s12 breaks the continuity between s11 and s13 with hyperbolic averments and s56 combines what is stated in the preceding and the succeeding slokas, and thus both are seemingly interpolations. S41- s48 that describe the allotted duties of man on the basis of his caste are clearly interpolations. In essence, the discourse till s40 is about the human nature and how it affects man. As can be seen, the duties on caste lines detailed in the said interpolations have no continuity of argument. As in earlier chapters, the text acquires continuity if only these verses are bypassed. S61 avers that the Supreme dwells in humans and deludes them all by his maya. This is contrary to what is stated in s14, c5, ‘It’s his nature but not Spirit / Makes man act by wants induced’. Thus, s61 clearly is an interpolation as it contravenes the neutrality of the Supreme Spirit in the affairs of man affirmed throughout by Lord Krishna. For those who may like to see how the Gita reads if the above cited 110 slokas are bypassed, the same are summarized as under. Ch. 3: s9 –s18, s24 and s35 (12 slokas); Ch.4: s11 - s 13, s24- s32 and s34 (13 slokas); Ch.5: s18 and s27 -29 (4 slokas) ; Ch. 6: s10-s17 and s41 -s42 (10 slokas) ; ch.7: s20 –s23 (4 slokas) ; ch.8: s5, s9- s14 and s23-s28 ( 13 slokas) ; ch.9: s7,s15-s21, s23-s25, and s32-s34 (14 slokas) ; ch.11: s9- s14 and s29 (7 slokas) ; ch.13: s10, s22 and s30 (3 slokas) ;ch.14: s3 -s4 and s19(3 slokas) ; ch.15: s9 and s12- s15 (5 slokas );ch.16: s19 (1 sloka) ;ch.17: s11- s14 and s23- 28 (10 slokas) and ch.18: s12, s41-48, s56 and s61(11 slokas ).

One may like to read my ‘Bhagvad-Gita: treatise of self-help’ in verse sans the above at Vedanta Spiritual Library or hear the audio rendition of the same at gatewayforindia.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.49.161 (talk) 09:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your query. This really isn't the place to submit articles in full, so I've collapsed your text into a box to make navigation of the page a little easier. Unfortunately, having looked at it, the article appears to be composed entirely of your own ideas and theories; that is, it is original research, which Wikipedia specifically does not publish. Wikipedia is not a primary source of information, and everything here must be verifiable in a reliable source where it has already been published. If a document is described as something that will change the way the world views a subject, it is by definition unsuitable for Wikipedia. You can find more guidance at Wikipedia:Your first article. Karenjc 11:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Dear Sir:

If my article does not qualify to be published, you may consider providing a link to 'Bhagvad-Gita: treatise of self-help' at Vedanta Spiritual Library and gatewayforindia.com. I do see Wikipedia providing many a link to Bhagvad-Gita of various authors and you may note that my work too is backed by the said sites specializing in works on the Indian philosophy. Regards, BS Murthy

Wikipedia is the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit. If the reference you suggest supports an existing assertion or assertions in any of our articles, and can be used as a reliable citation, you are welcome to add it yourself: see Wikipedia:Citing sources for information on how to do this. But Wikipedia is not a collection of links, and links to external sites should be added for a valid purpose. If you have knowledge of any particular subject, do remember that your input in improving existing articles will be welcome. Perhaps you would enjoy contributing at WP:WikiProject Hinduism, WP:WikiProject Religious texts, WP:WikiProject India or WP:Wikiproject Philosophy? Karenjc 15:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

B type blood and its arrival in Europe

I am curious as to how and when B type blood reached Europe? The article on blood groups showed that the B type allele reaches its highest frequency (41%) amongst the Kalmyks of central Asia. It's also high in Northern India and amongst gypsies. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Presumably a very long time ago. As you note, if its in Romani people, they've been in Europe since the 11th centure, according to that article. Furthermore, there has been contact between central Asian peoples and European peoples for a very long time before that, Turko-Mongolic people have coming to Europe since well before the birth of Christ; the Kalmyks, being a turko-mongolic people, probably share a common genetic ancestry with groups like the Eurasian Avars and Bulgars and Tartars and the like. --Jayron32 15:28, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm wondering how I managed to get it?! My dad had it as well (so obviously I got it from him), but his parents were from western Ireland, so how could it have possibly ended up there? I see that it's fairly common in eastern European people, yet drops in nations like France and Spain; however, it raises slightly in Ireland (10%) and Scotland (12%). Do you think the Vikings could have something to do with it?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:48, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Before they were in Ireland, the Celts ranged all over Europe. One could imagine that the Hallstatt or Urnfield people, both proto-Celtic peoples, had some contact with some of the central asian people I noted above, or others. There have even been more recent Irish peoples who arrived from other parts of the world. Heck, if a half-Cuban like Eamon de Valera can be a prominent Irishman, one can imagine other people emigrating to Ireland at various times, from just about anywhere. There are the so-called Black Irish, the article on them discusses some of the genetic evidence for their origins. --Jayron32 15:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

It's interesting that one of the English queen consorts, Philippa of Hainault was descended on the maternal side from the Kipchaks. Now they were definitely central Asian. It's highly unlikely that my dad had recent non-Irish ancestry unless it was English, Welsh or Scots, considering the relative isolation of the west of Ireland at the time of his parents birth. A possible central Asian origin for the Celts is intriguing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Its not really necessary that the Celts ever lived in central asia. Its just required that Celts (or their ancestors) had sex with Central Asian peoples. Any time large groups of people are in contact for extended periods of time, there will be sex between them, and hence an exchange of genes. So we don't necessarily need Celts in central asia; instead we just need some of the Celts from central Europe to have had sex with, say, Avars, who also were nearby. Then, when the Celts are driven to the periphery of Europe by the Latin and Germanic peoples, they carry those central-asian-origin genes with them. --Jayron32 16:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

This article has some fascinating maps of blood group distribution. The map of the B blood type strongly suggests an origin for the blood type in Central Asia and/or northern India and its gradual spread in every direction from there. What is interesting to me, in relation to your question, is the distribution of the B blood type in Africa. The blood type is more common in most parts of Africa than it is in western Europe. That might suggest that its spread to Africa occurred longer ago than its spread to western Europe. There have been no large movements of people from Eurasia to sub-Saharan Africa in historic times. Since such a movement would almost have had to pass through Egypt (and since the other possible route, through Ethiopia, seems unlikely given the low frequency of B bloodtypes in southern Arabia and the Horn of Africa), the movement surely took place more than 5,000 years ago when writing developed in Egypt. Within western Europe, the area with the lowest concentration of the blood type (discounting thinly populated areas in northern Sweden) is centered on the Pyrenees. This, of course, is the area inhabited in ancient times by the related Aquitani and the ancestors of the Basques. This strongly suggests that the B blood type arrived in Europe with the speakers of the early Indo-European languages, since the Aquitani-Basque region was the main region not reached in ancient times by this migration. The date of arrival of Indo-European speakers in eastern Europe west of the Dnieper is controversial. I find arguments for a date around 3000 BCE convincing, but others have argued for a date 3000 years earlier than that. Indo-European speakers would have spread gradually to western Europe (except Aquitania-Vasconia) over the next 1000 years or so, intermarrying with existing populations and thereby diluting their gene pool. Marco polo (talk) 16:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

What is odd is how all of my kids have it. My mother was A, which fits in with her English and French ancestry, yet my brother is AB. Now, that group is the latest to arrive in Europe. Marco, would you concur with the theory that B type blood originated in the Himalayas?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:21, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

The Himalayas are certainly near the center of the area with the highest concentration of the B blood type. On the other hand, the Himalayas have never been densely populated, for obvious reasons. Looking at the map, it looks to me as if the Hindu Kush is even closer to the center of the area with the highest concentration of the B blood type. The thing is, the area around the Hindu Kush has been a crossroads for thousands of years and probably was in prehistoric times. Central Asia, to its north, has seen even larger migrations sweep across it. So much so that if Central Asia was the region where the blood type originated, we might expect its frequency to have decreased there as a result of the many migrations since that very ancient time. So I would say that the place of origin could have been anywhere between northern India and Central Asia, including both of those two regions. The origin very likely occurred 10,000 or more years ago, so we cannot pinpoint it with any kind of accuracy. Marco polo (talk) 16:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Identifying a mislabelled sound file on Wikipedia, probably by Handel

I uploaded the above file to Wikipedia a couple of years ago under the filename "Handel - Organ Concerto - Op. 7 No. 1 - HWV 306 - 3. Largo e piano.ogg". However it has recently come to my attention that the file is not part of the official score for that particular concerto. Camn someone here identify the piece, or point me somewhere on the Internet that can help me out? I tried emailing the organ soloist, David Schrader, but I didn't get a response after a week. I know that the file is in G minor because I have absolute pitch. It ends on the dominant chord of D major, so if it's not an improvisation (which is entirely possible), it must be part of a larger work.

Thanks for any assistance in this matter. Feel free to fix the formatting of the sound file if needed. Graham87 14:54, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I've linked to this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music and Talk:George Frideric Handel. Graham87 15:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

See How to Identify Songs Using Melody - wikiHow. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that site has some interesting links! None of them have helped me find the melody so far, however. Graham87 01:28, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

• It may well be an improvisation since Handel would have improvised during his solo performances (common practice in the Baroque period) and David Schrader is probably trying to be "authentic" in his performance. OTOH, the piece is familiar so he might be using another of Handel's tricks (also common in the Baroque, in fact) of "recycling" material from elsewhere. It might only be "familiar", however, because Schrader is simply using Baroque techniques and well-worn-phrases in his improvisation. That said, if it is a recycled piece from elsewhere, I'll probably kick my self when I find out the name of it... --Jubilee♫clipman 20:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Evil

Who was the most evil person in recorded history? --J4\/4 <talk> 16:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Evil is impossible to quantify. This question has come up before. Search the archives. --Jayron32 16:42, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Is there anyone who was responsible for more deaths than Hitler was? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:45, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I would also say it was Adolf Hitler considering his genocide of six million people, plus the millions more who died as a result of the devastating war he launched in Europe.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

And how does that particular case of genocide and war become more evil than any other genocide/war in history? Why isn't Attila the Hun evil? He waged war throughout most of the known world at the time, killing countless people and took on extremely genocidal tactics. Deciding who is "most evil" tends to come down to "who did it most recently" - which is a rather silly metric for measuring how evil someone was. -- kainaw™ 17:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

A Google search for "list of evil people" or similar will net lots of results. As a random example [6], Cliff Pickover rates Tomas de Torquemada at number one evil man of all time. Buddy432 (talk) 17:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Torquemada ordered the extermination of six million people, besides there are many people who have never heard of Torquemada, whereas most people over the age of 10 know who Hitler was.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:39, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I think I heard once that Hitler killed 6 million Jews, and Stalin killed 6 million of all races and creeds. But that could have been literary license. However, Hitler makes a good poster child for "Evil", in that there is so much footage of him or of his regime that he's relatively "accessible" as demagogues go. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:50, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

There were also, in addition to the 6 million murdered Jews, the millions of combatants and civilians who died in World War Two, which he was personally responsible for causing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily. China and Japan were already at war before Germany and Russia started the war in Europe, and the conditions for tension between France and Germany due to the Versailles Treaty would still have existed without Hitler, and likewise between Japan and the English-speaking countries. Certainly Hitler was responsible for the war taking the particular course it did, but if he'd died in a traffic accident in 1930 there very well might still have been some sort of second world war. --Anonymous, 18:27 UTC, 2010-05-05.

(edit conflict)Hitler comes to mind as the most evil because he is both a notable 20th century player and is regarded as evil. If it is death tolls that we use to quantify evil, then this list mentions Mao Zedong's regime as killing 40 million people (this number includes those dying from the Great Leap Forward), Stalin's regime killing 20 million, and Congo Free State (headed by Leopold II of Belgium) killing about 8 million. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 18:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

It's extremely frustrating to see RD regulars use the figure "six million" as short-hand for the camps. I absolutely agree that we must "never forget" the six million Jews -- but at least THIRTEEN million people died in the camps (the Jews plus seven million more). It amazes me that people who pride themselves on their general knowledge continue to be ignorant of this fact. 63.17.78.36 (talk) 03:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The debate above, which will never end, illustrates that the question is not answerable because the term "evil" is subjective. Our article Evil, for example, discusses several acts now considered evil which were not considered evil in earlier times; mentions that "evil", to some, means simply "disobeying God"; and contains some criticism of the use of the word itself as counterproductive. Sorry. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:28, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

To the question by Bugs about anyone to have been responsible for more deaths than Hitler was: the article Mao Zedong states that "Mao's policies and political purges from 1949 to 1976 are widely believed to have caused the deaths of between 50 to 70 million people." --Магьосник (talk) 20:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

holy crap! 160.39.221.164 (talk) 08:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Right. The Holocaust numbers are usually cited as 6 million jews + 6 million non-jews. In either case, the numbers are so large that the degree of disgust is irrelevant. Shadowjams (talk) 09:15, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

• thumb Is whoever is responsible for this evil? (Nick Ut /AP)

The actual number of dead are somewhat irrelevant for the question at hand, because they do not only depend on (evil) intent, but also on the means of the candidate. Who knows how many Attila would have killed with modern technology? Or, for another question, how "evil" would those people be that initiated the second strike in a full-scale nuclear war? It would be pure, useless revenge, killing untold millions of innocents. But if the act is evil, what about the preparation for it? Is a sadistic murderer who slowly kills 3 victims for his own satisfaction more evil than a national leader who fights a war in which hundreds of children are burned to death with Napalm? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the fact that we know Hitler killed at least 13 million people makes him the person we all automatically think of when evil is mentioned. Of course, there have been others. Excluding the 20th century, we have Attila, Vlad Tepes, Elizabeth Bathory, the glorious revolutionaries Marat and Robespierre, Ivan the Terrible, Caligula and other Roman emporers; then let us not forget the various Byzantine despots. And that wonderful model family of the turn of the 16th century-the Borgias! Any of these could be labelled evil by both contemporary and modern standards.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:15, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

If one is religious? God is the most evil thing. Think of all the people it killed or let die. GoodDay (talk) 14:26, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

That was unnecessary. The person who posed the question was specifically asking about the "most evil person" not the "most evil deity." Theologically speaking, there are people who believe in the vengeful God, and there are people who believe in a loving God. You cannot make generalizations about God being evil, when God is present in the theologies of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, each having multiple ways of describing God. Many people who believe in God also believe that God provides for an eternal life in love and peace, which is not my idea of evil. Falconus^{p t c} 15:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Post military-model

Many textbooks decry the military model of management, and from my experience I agree with that. But after the military model is removed, what do you call what should replace it? 78.146.23.126 (talk) 20:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

What do you define as the military model?

ALR (talk) 20:42, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Probably command and control, which is the name for the standard management model used by most militaries. There are, of course, many non-heirarchical management models, W. L. Gore and Associates uses a notable one which works quite well for them. Our article gives a basic overview. There are lots of others. --Jayron32 00:49, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

That would be my assumption, but since military organisations, in common with the rest of the real world, don't reflect the textbooks it's difficult to judge. In practice there is a blend of different styles of management and leadership depending on context and situation.

I would say that in my experience the Command and Control model is nowadays rarely used in the military environment, it's much more about what I'd call Mission Command or management by objectives

ALR (talk) 07:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Joel Spolsky has a series of articles [7] [8] on this subject, as it applies to software management. Paul (Stansifer) 02:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

What I call it is "chaos". Multiple reporting lines make things very confusing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:24, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Where and why did you get the idea that the alternative is multiple reporting lines? 89.243.159.221 (talk) 08:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Bugs is presenting a false dilemma: you either run things like the military, or you don't run anything at all. Obviously there are more alternatives than that and references have already been given to some of them. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

A style of Matrix management, with multiple reporting lines, is quite common in the military environment. It's an unrealistic example.

ALR (talk) 15:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Oops! Re-reading my question above, I see it could be read to be about the management style in the military. What I meant was, the military model for management of business or other non-military organisations. To answer ALR above, the military model is where people try to run a business to be like their idea of running an army. 78.149.246.255 (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, thanks. So what people that don't understand how the military works, think it does ;)

See my thoughts above. The Command and Control model is what people imagine the military is like, management by objectives is what it's really like :)

These are the terms that I'd generally use if I'm delivering leadership training, rather than military model because it means different things to different people. Consultative and collaborative styles are used as well, but more usually in specialist units.

ALR (talk) 14:49, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

HIV/AIDS

See the AIDS article for details.

1. Is HIV/AIDS on a decline throughout the world? 2. Which region of Earth has the highest HIV/AIDS cases? B-Machine (talk) 21:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

In absolute numbers or as a proportion of population? -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Both. B-Machine (talk) 21:38, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

It is still on the rise. This page has a graph. Also see our AIDS article, which includes the graphic to the right illustrating HIV prevalence among the population. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:28, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

From the map, it is fairly obvious that the highest levels of infection are found in Sub-Saharan Africa region, though I would have expected Thailand to have a higher rate then it shows. Googlemeister (talk) 13:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

It's also important to note (though you didn't ask for it) that infection is not necessarily evenly distributed. In Sub-Saharan Africa, being poor correlates strongly with HIV infection. In Thailand, it would correlate with sex workers and their clients. In Western countries it tends to correlate with (but is by no means limited to) drug users, people with many sexual partners, people who have unprotected sex and (unfortunately) men who have homosexual sex. Steewi (talk) 03:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

That's phrased a little oddly. Poor people, homosexuals, drug users, prostitutes, and folks who have a lot of sex are at high risk, but it's only gay guys that rate an "unfortunate"? WTF? Matt Deres (talk) 15:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

HIV/AIDS killing poor people, gays and drug users is rather Darwinian in that it seems to punish certain behaviors, that are less conducive to procreation. Of course, the other 2 categories are the exact opposite. Googlemeister (talk) 18:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Well if you want to talk 'Darwinian'... Humans are social creatures and generally spend significant resources raising the young. Someone who humps everything that moves may procreate more, but it doesn't mean that it's evolutionary advantageous behaviour. And there are a number of theories on why certain people being gay may not be the completely evolutionary dead end it seems to be. Evolution is about more then just having as many babies as you can. Nil Einne (talk) 13:32, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

May 6

Probable cause

A police officer suspects someone of having something illegal, but he doesn't have enough proof to establish probable cause. He then asks the person for permission to search his stuff. If the person consents, the officer searches him. If the person refuses, he must be hiding something, so the officer has probable cause to search him anyway. Would this work? --75.33.219.230 (talk) 02:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

No. See right to silence. --99.237.234.104 (talk) 02:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I have heard a police officer in the United States say specifically that if he asks to search something (say a vehicle) but doesn't have probable cause or a warrant, he can't without permission. His course of action then is to wait until the drug dogs get there and walk around the car. Should the dogs bark, he said that that was probable cause. Falconus^{p t c} 02:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Police officers tend to have some tricks up their sleeves in tricking people who don't know their rights. One example is asking "do you know what will happen to you if you don't do what a police officer tells you?" The answer is nothing, but most people don't know this apparantly. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 03:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? It seems to me that evidence obtained by that kind of trickery would be deemed inadmissible. --99.237.234.104 (talk) 02:04, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

William Chambliss, "Policing the Ghetto underclass" in Social Problems (1994). There are two accounts of this. On page page 179:

The officer requests permission to search the car. The individual refuses the officer's request. The officer begins pressuring the driver with threats: 'You know what happens if you refuse to obey a police officer’s request?' The driver says nothing, shrugs and gets out of the car. The car is searched and nothing is found.

And on page 180:

The officer on the driver's side asks: 'Can we search your car?' The driver says 'No.' The officer then says, 'You know what will happen if you refuse a police officer's request?' The driver then says 'OK you can look.' Both occupants are told to get out of the car and the car is searched.

I've also been told, less reliably, that anything other than closing your door and locking it (whether it's your house or your car) is construable by a police officer as consent for a search and admissible as evidence in court. Even if you say "I do not consent to a search," evidence found can still be permissible if it's just your word against the officer's (they've already violated your rights, what's a little perjury to seal the deal?). — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 22:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

See Search and Seizure article. Also look at Terry stop. In the U.S., the police can frisk anyone they suspect with a reasonable suspicion, a lenient standard. If, during that frisk, they feel something that may give them probable cause, then probable cause analysis applies. Shadowjams (talk) 09:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I was just asking because I saw on the news that a town near me is planning to have a mandatory brethalyzer checkpoint. As they're checking everyone, rather than only those who appear intoxicated, you're within your rights to refuse. However, the police claims that a person would only refuse if he's intoxicated, so they'll have a judge on-site to sign search warrants to do blood tests on those who refuse. --75.33.219.230 (talk) 11:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a link to a news story about this? The situation sounds rather extraordinary. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not really remarkable. DUI checkpoints are part of an exception to the 4th amendment for "public safety" although it's relatively limited. There have been cities that have tried to expand it to more general concerns, like checking for drugs, and those have been struck down. The exception for vehicle checkpoints must have a neutral criteria and cannot be general law enforcement, but rather aimed towards the safety concern. The exception is controversial, but it's an established doctrine. As for refusing breath tests, those laws vary a lot state to state so don't believe what you hear from friends and on the internet regarding the consequences of refusal, etc. Shadowjams (talk) 20:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

What seems extraordinary is that they're using refusal as evidence for incrimination. If a warrant is issued based on refusal, then one is not within their rights to refuse. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 22:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you're going to refuse a court order (which is a court order to the sheriff, but by proxy the party searched) then you need an express reason to do so. The most obvious reason would in this case would be the 5th amendment (in the U.S., which I think we've all assumed this question is referring to) which has been regularly held to not apply to "non testimonial" evidence, including things like blood or hair samples. The Federal rules of civil procedure (and most states) have special requirements for these kinds of examinations, but they're not constitutionally based and they largely are at the discretion of the trial court in the case. Shadowjams (talk) 08:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The only problem I have is the logic, which is what the OP's question is really about. Refusal of a search should never be construed as actionable evidence of guilt. If you don't have a right to refuse the test either way, then they don't need to argue its base in guilt in the first place to justify a nonconsentual test. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 08:38, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Judge knowingly permitting perjury?

Right now, I'm watching a Law and Order episode in which a witness, fearing for his safety, testifies to a judge privately and is told by the judge to lie in open court: the judge says that the secret testimony is good enough. Would such a situation really be possible in real life under New York law? Nyttend (talk) 02:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

That seems remarkable to me, but I haven't seen the episode. A judge shouldn't ever advise a party before it about legal questions, nor should any officer of the court ever make a false statement before it. That is basic legal ethics. Shadowjams (talk) 09:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

And secret testimony in general is pretty constrained to national security issues, I believe. And even then it is controversial and problematic (and probably wouldn't be used in a criminal case). The reason is pretty straightforward: the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution says you are allowed to face both your accuser and know the testimony against you, in criminal proceedings. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:21, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

UK election polling times

What times of day do the polls open and close in the UK election? --130.216.44.59 (talk) 04:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

7 a.m. to 10 p.m. Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Too Big to Fail

The definition in the article's second paragraph is not accompanied by any citations. Can someone please hunt down a source that either verifies or refutes the claim? 128.59.180.241 (talk) 05:10, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

That sort of issue should be dealt with on that page's talk page, or at the appropriate project page, like WP:FINANCE. Shadowjams (talk) 06:10, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

No, this is the right place to ask for references. WP Project talk pages are for discussing issues that pertain to multiple articles in a certain field. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 08:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I should have clarified: my request originated as a question ("Has TBTF ever meant immune to failure?"). I framed it as a hunt for sources because (1) I wanted to make sure the answer was researched, and (2) I wanted the research to go into the article, so others would benefit.

Shadowjams, I'm glad you raised the issue, because it gives me a chance to share a slightly related gripe: having followed Reference Desk pages for about a year, I am surprised at how rarely an answer is accompanied with an edit in the article space to memorialize the effort. -Original inquirer, now posting as 160.39.221.164 (talk) 08:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be difficult, but the reference desk is not the place to ask for modifications to articles. There's an entire system set up around that sort of thing, and if there are specific problems you have, but aren't comfortable changing yourself, the project pages are a good place to start.

Does too big to fail mean immune to failure? Neither of those definitions have any [known to me] meaning under U.S. law, so I don't think the distinction is meaningful, unless there's some popular usage. Shadowjams (talk) 09:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Look at the original post in this thread. The questioner is not asking for "modifications to articles". They want references. When you want references, you go to the reference desk. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 09:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this is a fair question for the Reference Desk. We help people find information. We can certainly try to help find references for articles.

After a moderate amount of searching, I cannot find a reference that supports the definition in the article's second paragraph. It is certainly not a definition in wide use today. I question whether that definition belongs in the article, since it is tangential to the subject of the article. I'd say your next step is to go to the article's Talk page and suggest deleting the definition for that reason. Marco polo (talk) 15:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Why was jesus executed?

I'm not talking about the religious reason, he died for our sins, I don't buy that nonsense. I'm just interested in the historical reasons. I read the section on Historical Jesus regarding his execution, and I don't completely understand all of the context. Now I heard he was killed simply for saying he was the son of god, and the jews considered that blasphemy, but that sounds a bit extreme. I know this was back in those days, and it was a different culture, but to execute someone over just that sounds like it's too much. Sedition also sounds a bit odd. If he was planning sedition, and the Romans took it as a serious threat, wouldn't it make more sense to imprison him? If his followers were large enough to be that much of a threat, they would be afraid that they would want to take revenge for killing him in such a public way. Did he do anything that caused people to die in the same way that Shoko Asahara or Jim Jones did? ScienceApe (talk) 05:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Whatever -- you might set a better tone for people to persuade people to cooperate with you if you didn't start off by insulting their religion, and leaving the word "Jews" uncapitalized could give people the wrong idea. In any case, the New Testament makes it fairly clear that the Sadducee/High-priestly elite of the time (not "Jews" generally) thought he was a religious troublemaker with grandiose pretensions who could agitate people and/or cause problems with the continually very touchy Roman-Jewish relations. They couldn't execute him because such inferior local "native" authorities weren't allowed to impose the death penalty under the Roman system. So they had to hand him over to the Romans to be executed -- but since Jewish religious offenses were not a crime under Roman law, they also had to present him as being a political rebel. The Roman authorities were more or less aware that he wasn't really a political rebel, but were willing to kill him anyway, partly to preserve their working relationship with the Sadducee/High-priestly elite. AnonMoos (talk) 06:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

That's a good summary. It's also worth pointing out that there were a number of "false messiahs" running around, and they often ended up being disposed of and were thus permanently out of the way of both the Romans and the Jewish honchos. The Jesus situation turned out differently, to put it mildly. I think the question "why weren't they imprisoned" is answerable by the deterrence factor. Crucifixion was a horrible way to die, and the theory was that it would make other potential troublemakers think twice before making trouble. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Our article says "Some scholars suggest that Pilate executed Jesus as a public nuisance, perhaps with the cooperation of the Jewish authorities.", which implies the opposite. I was taught that the Romans tolerated most religions, most of the time, but could not abide any kind of political insurrection. It seems the cross bore a sign that read "King of the Jews". Sounds a political crime to me. New Testament sources on the role of the Jews in Jesus' death are useful, but do need to be considered with their bias (anti Jewish) and time of writing (generally much later) borne in mind. As indeed are the writings of historians and biblical scholars. See Historiography. --Dweller (talk) 12:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

"The King of the Jews" was put there to mock Jesus. It's most likely Jesus was considered a dangerous agitator and the authorities feared his influence over the populace. The main problem with understanding the life of Jesus from a distance of more than 2,000 years is due to the brief space he occupies in the Bible.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:49, 6 May 2010 (UTC)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:49, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at an interesting article with the background to the trial here[9]. They argue that the motivation for the arrest of Jesus was the earlier altercation with the money-changers in the Temple in Jerusalem and that the "King of the Jews" allegation came from Judas Iscariot. According to the Gospel accounts, Pilate had some sympathy with Jesus, but felt he had no alternative but to go along with the wishes of the Sanhedrin. Alansplodge (talk) 12:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

For blasphemy. See Mat: 26 v.57-68. See Mark: 14 v.53-65. See Luke: 22 v. 66- 23 v.1. See John: 19 v. 6-7. The Christian notion of God versus the Jewish. MacOfJesus (talk) 13:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I can check the top Exegesis on this if you need further help. The Gospels are very clear on this. I am amazed at the misunderstanding of this, as the Gospels are so clear. MacOfJesus (talk) 14:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

"...perhaps with the cooperation of the Jewish authorities"? That's rather understating things. As noted in Arrest of Jesus it was initially the Sanhedrin that had Him arrested and then condemned Him to death. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, but more as the initiators, see the Gospel references above. MacOfJesus (talk) 14:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Passion (Christianity) describes the details of the process, and asserts that the Jewish authorities were active participants and instigators throughout. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Jesus, had no magical powers. He was (however) likely a carismatic fellow & had a growing number of followers. Thus he became a political threat to the Romans & had to be eliminated. No doubt, when the Romans had him up on bogus charges of treason, they (the Romans) planted people in the crowds to start the calls for Jesus's crusifiction. GoodDay (talk) 14:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

A bit like the crowd in The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. "Cut 'im down, cut 'im down".--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The questioner asks for the "historical reasons" for the execution of Jesus. My answer would be that there are no truly historical reasons. We have only reasons mentioned by the Christian Gospels. These are our only source of information about the supposed execution of Jesus. These are sacred texts written to provide the foundation for a religious sect, early Christianity. They do not meet the definition of reliable historical sources. We have no way of knowing for sure whether events they describe actually happened, because those events are not documented in surviving Roman documents or in any other sources. Some scholars question whether a "historical Jesus" even existed. See Christ myth theory. Marco polo (talk) 14:49, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Thankyou! I've been saying that for years. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 14:57, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Now you're speaking the probable truth. GoodDay (talk) 14:53, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Then consult Pliny and Pliny the Younger & Johnathan, Josephus on Jesus, also C.G. Jung on myth. Also consult the Gospel according to Pilate, often referred to as the Acts of Pilate  : MacOfJesus (talk) 15:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

There are, in fact, other contemporary references:[10] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

No passages in ancient documents referring to Jesus are in fact contemporary with the supposed dates of Jesus. They all date from at least 60 years later. With the exception of the passage in Josephus, references outside of Christian texts refer to the beliefs of Christians as such, rather than offering independent documentation for the basis of those Christian beliefs. The passage in Josephus, while supposedly written in the 90s CE (some 60 years after the supposed crucifixion and ascension of Jesus), is not cited by any other source until the 300s. You would think that an earlier Christian source would have seized on this independent corroboration, if it existed before the 300s. This suggests that a Christian inserted these references to Jesus into the work of Josephus. As Christianity became the official religion of the empire, it is likely that the versions of Josephus that mentioned Jesus would be accepted as authoritative, while those that did not would be rejected and not recopied. We cannot know for sure, since the works of Josephus were copied and recopied many times. The oldest copies that survive were created a thousand years after the original. Let me be clear that I am not arguing that Jesus did not exist. I am just arguing that we don't know whether he existed. Marco polo (talk) 15:38, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The existence of Jesus is just about as well-established as any other figure of ancient times who was not a ruler or high government official, and is not mentioned in inscriptions of strictly contemporary date. There are many thousands of names mentioned in ancient texts (including some relatively famous ones) whose existence we have less evidence for than we do for that of Jesus. Also, the Christians of the earliest centuries really would not have cared too much about Josephus (whom they would not have had any reason to revere as any kind of religious authority), and also would not have cared too much about the so-called "question of the historical Jesus" (which hardly anybody in the world ever cared about before the 18th century)... AnonMoos (talk) 16:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

According to http://multilingualbible.com/matthew/27-18.htm and http://multilingualbible.com/mark/15-10.htm, the execution of Jesus was motivated by envy on the part of the chief priests. However, other Bible passages mention accusations which they contrived against him as pretexts. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:15, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Pliny the Elder (23-79) together with Pliny the Younger (63-c.113) were contemporary and completely independant and were pure historians, and wrote their works real-time, for, we believe a sponsor. You need, then, to study their works independantly of Wikipedia, as Wikipedia is meant to be an encyclopaeda, and would not have the original works. Have you studied the Acts of Pilate, Pilate's witness? He was contemporary, very much so! MacOfJesus (talk) 16:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

For the historicity of what you may read in the Acts of Pilate see Acts of Pilate.--Wetman (talk) 18:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I do think that early Christians would have wanted to cite independent evidence backing their claim that Jesus existed, if there had been any such evidence to cite. (Pliny the Elder never mentions Jesus, and Pliny the Younger mentions him, but only because he is reporting on the existence of Christians who worship him. Pliny the Younger documents the existence of Christians, not of Jesus. Nobody questions the existence of Christians.) In addition to rulers and high government officials, I would argue that the existence of a number of scholars and literary figures is better established than that of Jesus through contemporary citations. It is certainly true that there are a number of names mentioned in ancient sources whose existence could be called into question. In most cases, though, there is no reason to call their existence into question. Jesus is different. He is claimed to be the son of God, born to a virgin, and to have risen from the dead. Those are some pretty extraordinary claims. In my mind, a source, such as any of the Gospels, that makes those claims, is more open to question than a source that does not make extraordinary claims about the people it mentions. I disagree that nobody in ancient times would have cared about whether Jesus really existed. The claims about him were so extraordinary that I'm sure many non-Christians questioned his existence. I agree that nobody would have openly questioned the existence of Jesus between the 5th and the 18th centuries. On the one hand, modern historiographical standards of objectivity hardly existed during that period. If a source was considered authoritative, it was accepted with little critical questioning. On the other hand, questioning the existence of Jesus would have been profoundly blasphemous and heretical and would have been grounds for burning at the stake. Marco polo (talk) 18:25, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Fine, but one does not have to take Jesus as a historical figure to answer the question. Its possible to read a work of fiction and answer, from within the context of that work, why something happened, especially if the text explained it. In this case, you don't have to accept a single word of the Bible as true to answer the question. You can just read the Bible and give the answer the Bible does. The Gospel of Mark, starting at Mark 14:43 and continuing through Mark 15-15 covers this. In Mark, Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." 63The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?" They all condemned him as worthy of death. Since the Sanhedrin did not have the authority to carry out the death sentance, they handed him to Pilate to do it. Luke 22 and 23 tell a similar story, but in that bit, the time before Pilate is expanded, showing his reluctance to execute Jesus, starting at Luke 23:13 13Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, 14and said to them, "You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. 15Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death. 16Therefore, I will punish him and then release him." However, the people demanded his execution, and Pilate relents, in order to keep the peace. Starting at Luke 23:22 22For the third time he spoke to them: "Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him." 23But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. 24So Pilate decided to grant their demand. 25He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, the one they asked for, and surrendered Jesus to their will. John and Matthew tell basicly the same story as Luke, a bit different dialogue, but they pretty much agree on events. --Jayron32 19:24, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

However, Saint John's Gospel spells it out even more clearly: 19:v.6-7: "We have a Law and according to that Law he ought to die, because he claimed to be the Son of God". (JB). MacOfJesus (talk) 21:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I have written and studied Philosophical writings and other secular related studies but I never came across anything like this. ( Fine, but one does not have to take Jesus as a historical figure to answer the question. Its possible to read a work of fiction and answer, from within the context of that work, why something happened, especially if the text explained it. In this case, you don't have to accept a single word of the Bible as true to answer the question. You can just read the Bible and give the answer the Bible does. ) To quote Jayron32. If this kind of "histeria" occured there, there would be questions of mental sability! MacOfJesus (talk) 21:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Jayron's answer is correct and on track. If I asked, "What did The Voice say to Ray Kinsella in the cornfield?", the correct answer wouldn't be, "Field of Dreams is fictional." The answer would be, "'If you build it, he will come.'" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

It was my understanding that the Jews could not condemn someone to death, whether "he deserved to die" or not, they had no death penalty. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 02:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

for the above please. Googlemeister (talk) 18:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Of course they had the death penalty, Everard! What do you think stoning resulted in?!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Citation request; that is cited in the Gospel references already given. This was the reason why they brought Him to Pilate in the first place. I thought you would have looked up the sources already given by now! Is there any point in giving these if they are not read or going to be read? MacOfJesus (talk) 22:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The way I read it, they had the religious authority to condemn, but they lacked the legal authority to carry it out. Hence they went to Pontius Pilate to have him finish the job. Pilate, having reached his weekly quota of executions, and wanting to leave work early that Friday to go watch Ben-Hur and Messala in the big chariot smackdown, was reluctant to do it; but the mob outside his office talked him into it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Reference is precice in Saint John 18 v. 31-32. It is clear they did not have this authorithy. If they stoned to death in the Roman times, they did so illegally as in the case of Saint Stephen. Where is it cited: "There is none so blind as those who will not see"? MacOfJesus (talk) 23:28, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Was stoning actually ordered by the authorities, or was it typically (theoretically) a spontaneous act by the public? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The answer is in the New Testament writings. If you study the account of Saint Stephen and the Commentaries from Scripture Scholars, you will find the answer. I recommend The Jerome Biblical Commentry. However, you may not accept these, so what is the point in finding them? MacOfJesus (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Voting

I have registered to vote but have not received anything to confirm this, what do I need to vote, can I take my passport and tell them my address? Will they stop me from voting with out a card? please help I DID register, and really want to vote! Thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 07:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Assuming you're in the UK, I'm pretty sure there is something about that going on today..., then you're fine.

You self identify, give them your name and address and that's fine. You don't need any form of ID.

ALR (talk) 07:48, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

All the information you should need is here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:08, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

As ALR says, you just turn up and tell them your name and address. Nothing else needed. 89.243.159.221 (talk) 09:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The voting card is for information only. Your passport will be sufficent. Berfore 10PM. Helpline: 0207-525 7373 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              0207-525 7373      end_of_the_skype_highlighting (begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              0207-525 7373      end_of_the_skype_highlighting). Simple! Bring a utility bill showing your name and address as well, usually there is a person there who knows everyone in the community and able to identify. MacOfJesus (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The passport may be sufficient (or may not, as it doesn't show the holder's address), but it is not necessary, as others have said. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Unless you are in Northern Ireland - you need some form of photo ID to vote there. --Tango (talk) 15:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I didn't get a polling card either, and have just voted. They have a list of everybody registered to vote in the area. I'm not sure what would have happened if somebody had turned up earlier in the day claiming to be me, and taken my vote? 213.122.52.129 (talk) 17:42, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, you are issued with another ballot paper (pink in colour, I think) which is then placed in a sealed envelope inside the ballot box. This is then only counted if the result is a tie. Dalliance (talk) 18:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Have you voted yet? I forgot to mention; you have to go to the appropriate Polling Station where your address is, that is where your Street is listed. If you show some proof of who you are and your address there is usually no problem. The penalties for cheating are severe. MacOfJesus (talk) 22:03, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I hope you managed to vote: there are some weird stories about some polling stations, and it sounds like a lot of people didn't get to vote. 86.178.228.18 (talk) 23:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Government-run drug research

New medical drugs are apparantly discovered and developed by commercial companies and are usually very expensive, at least to begin with. Would it be a good idea for a government, or a group of governments, to do drug discovery and development, so that the costs would be lower? The costs of drug d&d may be high, but they would avoid having to pay the big profit included in the price. 89.243.159.221 (talk) 09:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

What makes you think the government would do it cheaper? If there are dozens of drug companies all struggling at the same level of effort, then they should all discover new money-making drugs at the same rate. Assuming the government's no different (maybe they'd be worse), why would the government's discovery be cheaper? The assumption might be that the company "profits" and the government does not. But the question is then how much does a company "profit". It's not Revenue minus Expenses. It has to also include the cost of funding, whether through equity or through loans/bonds. Same for government--municipal bonds? And if a company makes a lot of money then you would expect them to attract competitors. Those competitors will lower their prices just below the previous one, decreasing their profit. If I can make a widget for $3 and sell it for $4, then my competitor who can make it for $3 will sell it for $3.99. This cycle continues, until the "profit" equals the total costs. If that doesn't happen, you have to ask who or why isn't it. Shadowjams (talk) 09:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

That assumes no barriers to entry - if, for example, producing the widget requires patented technology, or the construction of a very expensive specialised manufacturing plant, that won't happen. And there are reasons why a system without competition might be more efficient - no duplication of effort, no concerns over potential espionage, more opportunities to work collaboratively. Warofdreams talk 14:24, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

You need to think about the cost structure when the pharmaceutical is retailed, and the period over which the patent is protected. Testing of pharma is time consuming, and expensive, the patent is lodged quite quickly so much of the testing eats into the period that the patent is protected. Licensing also takes up part of that time. So if you have say a 20 year patent period the supplier may only be able to sell it commercially for half or less than half of that time. So all of the costs need to be recouped in that period, leading to high cost, moderate volume, high margin business models. There is also a lot of risk, a very small proportion of patented products make it to the shelves, so the profitability also has to support abortive investigations.

Once the patent has expired and it becomes a generic it becomes a low production cost, high volume, low margin business model and you get different businesses involved.

Governments still have to patent and similar issues arise around the emergence of a generics market. You'd be loading up government with the high cost, high risk part of the business, and then the generics market would really pick up the profitability anyway.

That's even before one considers the general philosophical principle of whether government should be involved in that kind of thing at all. No, IMHO.

ALR (talk) 09:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Competition fuels innovation, among other things. As do profits. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Note that the government does spend several billions a year on biomedical research (see National Institutes of Health), some of which does lead to drug-related treatments. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:26, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I know that it is terribly unfashionable to advocate a role for government outside of war and law enforcement, but I think a strong case can be made that the government could bring down the cost of drug development. A big part of the cost of pharmaceuticals is the profit taken by private firms. That cost (and their profits) have been growing much faster than the rest of the economy in recent years. Since governments pay most of the cost of healthcare in most countries, and a big share even in the United States, governments could realize savings by eliminating profits and outsize executive compensation from the cost of drugs. Acting in concert, governments could also bring down the cost of drugs by eliminating competition among drug firms for talented researchers, which would allow governments to pay those researchers salaries just enough to attract talent, but they would not have to get into bidding wars. Finally, governments could focus research on drugs that address the most pressing medical needs rather than the greatest opportunities for profit. There is certainly overlap between those two goals, but also a fair amount of divergence. For example, many deadly diseases that affect millions of poor people in poor parts of Africa, Asia, or Latin America get little attention from drug companies. However, drug companies invest large amounts of resources in developing subtle new variations of existing antidepressants or drugs to address erectile dysfunction because they know that affluent people in rich countries will pay for them. Governments could reallocate resources to maximize public health rather than profits and executive compensation. Marco polo (talk) 15:28, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean revenue, gross or net profit? Probably more realistic to think about Return, which is generally not that great in the pure new pharma industries. Reward reflects risk.

In any case what you're advocating is nationalisation of the pharma industry, state intervention on a massive scale, which would bring with it all of the public finance governance incumbent on the holders of tax equity. You'd also expose the industry to political imperatives, by exposing the development work to competition from all of the other arms of government competing for the base funding.

I don't know of any nationalised industry that's been all that competitive in a free market, so that involves protectionism. A pretty significant philosophical adjustment, although I appreciate that the US is quite protectionist in a number of fields.

ALR (talk) 15:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

My suggestion is that competitiveness in a capitalist market is somewhat at odds with maximizing public health. The point of medicine is not to make money but to save lives. Marco polo (talk) 15:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the majority of people enter the professions which are the most lucrative. Altruism rarely plays a part in their decision.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The thought of replacing the several private pharma companies with a single government-run organization is truly frightening. Socialists mean well, but they're overly idealistic. A government can (and often does) perpetuate itself without producing anything useful. In the market economy, competition spurs development of new products, and the government's role is to regulate, i.e. to keep an eye on them and try to ensure that the products are good (which they obviously do not always succeed at doing). If the government itself is running a business, it's a monopoly with virtually no accountability, funded by compulsary tax dollars rather than by theoretically voluntary expenditures. Yikes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

In most places government is accountable to voters. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 16:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Every few years, at election time, and not just on health care but all issues. But if you buy (or don't buy) a particular product, you are casting a direct vote, then and there. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:10, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I understand your argument, Marco polo, about pharmaceutical corporations delivering large amounts of the wealth they generate to shareholders, directors and senior executives while manufacturing medication that is not in the best interest of public health. But there are also significant problems with your suggestion. A state-owned company still employs executives/directors and will have to offer them large salaries to compete with the private sector. There's also the problem of "political appointments" which is more common in a nationalised industry. Regarding the competition over technical expertise/researchers: if the state-owned entity doesn't offer technical experts the kind of salaries they get in other sectors then, over the long term, fewer experts will go into this industry.

Nationalising the pharmaceutical industry simply gives politicians more control over the economy. Even though companies don't care about national health interests, you know they're going maximise profits – so you can incentivise them to produce more useful products using regulation/legislation/tax-breaks etc. But politicians also don't care about national health interests, they try to win elections and increase their positional and political influence - give them this and they'll just use it as another political tool. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 16:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The exact same tired libertarian argument as the above has been used for years against the prospect of universal health care in America, but health care capitalism has brought America to the #37 rank worldwide, and all the universal health care countries beat America handily. There's good logic on both sides of the argument but remember that we enjoy evidence here on the Reference Desk, so I have to conclude the evidence goes against the "invisible hand of Adam Smith will take care of our health" theory. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:01, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

What is truly frightening is that you can sue a private company but not the government. Bearing that in mind, would the nationalised companies put that much effort into ensuring that the drugs they produce were safe?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

You can sue governments, it's just more difficult and you can't always manage to jump through the necessary hoops. The safety measures aren't decided by the companies based on what will avoid them getting sued but by public regulation anyway. You have to prove the drug is reasonably safe to it licensed. --Tango (talk) 17:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as I said, the government is not accountable, except through the painful process of voting for representatives. When you buy or don't buy a product, you are casting a direct vote for or against that product. That's true democracy. Countering the argument about the "invisible hand of Adam Smith" is "the invisible hand of the government", which is a lot scarier. If you trust your government too much, woe be unto you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I don't choose what drugs to take. I trust my doctor to do that. Individuals having a big role in what prescription drugs they take (and the associated advertising of them) is an idea that is pretty much unique to the US. --Tango (talk) 17:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Comet, first UHC (as I understand it), refers to medical services and financing - not drug manufacturing. And I didn't say that free markets will "take care of our health" - I'm saying that it's not clear that a government-run pharmaceutical industry will. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, obviously; what I was trying to state was that your tired libertarian argument has been used for years against universal health care, in the claim that medical care will actually worsen; yet our alternative, pure capitalism, has left the US ranked as the lowest of the developed Western countries. The argument is demonstrably bogus on the health care side, and my argument is that it's equally bogus on the pharmaceutical side. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I didn't make any arguments for the healthcare side, nor did I advocate "pure capitalism". It's irrelevant that someone else may have applied my comments (wrongly) to another debate. There is considerable evidence that state provided health services and medical financing improves healthcare. Where is the evidence that state-owned drug manufacturing improves healthcare or the manufacturing of drugs? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 22:15, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Universal health care, free at the point of consumption is perfectly achievable in a free market economy. The State funds the delivery of service and acts as a commissioner of services on behalf of the consumer. The private sector compete to deliver the services and that competition is mediated by the commissioners.

And fwiw, from what I've seen of mediated private sector provision it's generally comparable quality and lower cost than state delivered.

ALR (talk) 17:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

And this notion of "free" health care is bogus. It's from tax revenues. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Free at the point of consumption, it's part of living in a civilised society. People have a choice to consume that or fund private provision.

ALR (talk) 19:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, nobody has claimed that universal health care is free; we all know that we pay taxes to the government for the health care rather than writing checks to the insurance companies, doctors, and hospitals. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:45, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm puzzled that someone always feels the need to point this out every time universal healthcare is brought up. Do they think entire populations of other countries are ignorant of the need to fund things? "Free at the point of delivery" has always been the long version. How these things are funded are big election issues, with the parties positioning themselves on what they'll do about funding. We all know that free healthcare is paid for, by us. Just like free education is paid for, by us. Having said this, the UK pays less in tax per head for healthcare than the US does. So, you could look at it as a saving... 86.178.228.18 (talk) 22:52, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Are the profits of Big Pharma really that big? In terms of absolute number of dollars it sounds like a really big number, but isn't that mostly because it is an enormous industry? The profit margins (once you take into account all the ideas that never make it to market) are fairly modest, I believe. You may save a few billion dollars worldwide by taking drugs companies public, but that is a tiny amount compared to how much is spent on healthcare and would probably be cancelled out by the inefficiency that typically plagues public organisations. --Tango (talk) 17:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, certainly a lot of money is wasted on salami drugs, and market forces select for drugs that treat diseases, not for those the cure them. So there is a divergence between the interests of society and the natural direction of the market. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Treatments are better for the sellers but the buyers would rather have cures. So if one company started selling cures, people would favour that one and the guys who sell treatments will lose. Unless I'm missing something. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:31, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Margins are quite high on what they sell, but Return on Investment isn't that great. The industry is heavily segmented, with the developers and the generics producers existing in parallel, but not really competing except in the patent transition period.

ALR (talk) 17:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The case for nationalization is even stronger than Marco makes out. As others have pointed out, the universal experience outside the USA has been that nationalized/socialized health care delivers superior care at lower cost (than the US insane asylum health care non-system). Why shouldn't this be true for drugs? Several important things are omitted or underemphasized above. Government granted interference in markets by patents are a or the major reason for the high cost of drugs. They should simply be eliminated, so drugs are priced at their marginal cost, a tiny fraction of their current price. Second, most research is already done by the government; historically when prices were lower, this was even truer. Frequently the government already has paid for the expensive part, while private industry reaps the rewards. Third, the patent + "free-market" model has led to focusing on copycat drugs and according to some experts, a declining rate of innovation. Fourth, drug companies spend more on advertising, most of very of dubious benefit - much illegal not so long ago in the USA - than on research. People to read on these topics are Marcia Angell [11] and Dean Baker, who has said "We recognize that patents are a way to provide incentives for research, but where is the economic research that shows that they are the most efficient way? You won't find it, because economists have mostly chosen to ignore the issue." Also: ". Just looking at the U.S. numbers, we spend $150 billion a year in higher drug prices to get $30 billion a year in research from the pharmaceutical industry" (Subtracting copycat drug research of $20 billion, one gets $10 billion for real private research expenditures in 2007) [12] [13] [14] [15]. The only arguments I can see against nationalizing the drug companies are ideological, the obstacles political, the benefits obvious.John Z (talk) 19:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad that your trust your government so well. We Americans have an inherent distrust of government. Europeans are much more used to turning over their freedom of choice to the governments. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I think you're conflating state sponsored healthcare, and the production of Pharmaceuticals. There is a pretty clear case for state sponsored healthcare being available to the citizen, but there are fairly intense debates about how that is delivered. There is a migration towards the commissioning model that I've mentioned above.

The arguments aren't as clear about production, particularly where you're conflating innovation, and generics.

ALR (talk) 20:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that "We Americans have an inherent distrust of government", and maintain this "history" is largely a conservative invention meant to bolster the weight of their arguments. Think FDR. Even older, more conservative Americans aren't about to vote against Social Security, Medicare, the local library, or fire department. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

How about a reference, guys, on the question about profitability, instead of just giving offhand opinions? We have an article on the pharmaceutical industry that includes a table of profits; see Pharmaceutical industry#Market leaders in terms of revenue. As an exercise, I typed in the revenue and net income numbers of the ten largest components of the Fidelity Select Pharmaceuticals mutual fund (FPHAX) and came up with an aggregate total of a 20.8% margin (dividing revenue by net income). This selection of companies isn't representative except that they were selected by the fund manager, at least as of late last year, as the best set of pharma stocks to own in his opinion. The largest 4 holdings are Merck, Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, and Novartis. Anyway, yes, very profitable. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that's a realistic comparator, you'd need to strip out the contribution from non-pharma business units, and also separate out the development business units from the generics businesses. All of those have generics businesses, but I'm not up to date on how governance arrangements are set up for them.

ALR (talk) 20:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed that the analysis could be improved with some work, but I think it's in the ballpark. It strikes me the generics businesses must have a lower margin due to competition, and as for the non-pharma business units, I looked at J&J's 2009 annual report and found that their pharmaceutical division's margin was 28.5%, down from 31% the year before. By the way, J&J's report says in 2009 their pharmaceutical division's R&D expense was 20.4% of sales. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

It's a couple of years since I was doing any analysis in this area, but generics businesses were on about 5% Gross Margin; it's very much a cost leadership model.

From memory the Pharma development was returning about 10-15%, that's not published it was the result of the analysis. That's a little behind standard comparators, good performance would be about 20%, and if you start looking at professional service businesses it's about 40%.

ALR (talk) 20:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you cite a source that professional service businesses typically have a 40% margin? That's way too high. I randomly selected EDS as a professional service type of business, and their margin was 3.2% in 2007. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't consider EDS as Professional Services, David Maister has done some work on it but the 40% is pretty consistent. Probably worth defining Prof Services as Accountancy, Consulting, Legal Services, Audit.

Structurally these are businesses that have low fixed costs and a lot of intellectual capital.

ALR (talk) 22:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, you're going to have to cite a source for the 40% number. I looked up Accenture's numbers and their margin has ranged between 5.8% and 7.3% over the last five years. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Finding something up to date and in the public domain may take a little time. As I said, Maister is the author that springs to mind, he's done a couple of books on Prof Service management. Those figures are from work that the market analysts in my firm develop. However I have a feeling that we're talking about different market segments; EDS, ACN, HP, Fujitsu and IBM are System Integrators, all of who are somewhat lower GM and profitability. To an extent because they're selling a broadly commoditised service for large swathes of their business; outsourced CRM, payroll, Systems Management etc.

Examples of what I'm talking about in Professional Services are McKinsey, Bain, KPMG, Allen & Overy, DLA Piper and my own firm (that I'm not going to identify). Most of those are not publicly traded, they tend to be Limited Liability Partnerships, so the details of their operating performance are a bit more opaque.

In any case, the question was about the advisability of the public sector getting into the pharmaceutical research business. I don't see a clear case having been made for nationalisation of either the R&D dominated side of the industry or the generics side. It's also clear that there are a range of different understandings of where these industries fit into the healthcare market, and how the healthcare market as a whole should be delivered.

Notwithstanding the philosophical economic positions the arguments for state intervention do assume nationalisation and import controls. The arguments against hinge on the behavioural effects of competition. We are missing some context from the original questioner, what government is being suggested. In the US the healthcare system is very different from what we have here in the UK, which is again very different from what is delivered in France, Singapore or Germany. State provision of Pharma industry would have very different effects in each of these healthcare systems. Thinking about the supply chain in the US, any efficiencies would probably be lost in the mediation by insurers, particularly across state boundaries. In the UK it would need a fairly significant restructuring of the whole system which is designed to mediate private sector supply.

Reading into the question part of the justification appears to be about the compensation schemes available to those that run these private sector companies. That looks almost punitive, and it doesn't consider what happens when people move out of the industry to gain a comparable compensation scheme again.

ALR (talk) 10:01, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I should have been clearer and not used a misleading and taboo word like "nationalization." Dean Baker Financing Drug Research: What Are the Issues? , Joseph Stiglitz Prizes, Not Patents et al propose much less government interference in the drug market. The present government interference, dwarfing all other proposals', is the granting of patent monopolies. Get rid of that, and perforce, almost all research will be financed more directly by the government or non-profit institutions, because drugs being sold at about marginal cost as generics will not be able to support the same level of research. The point is that patents exist for a reason, promoting innovation, and experience shows that in the particular case of drugs, they are an extremely inefficient way of financing research. Again, many here do not seem to realize that only a small fraction of the cost of drugs goes toward research costs, which have little effect on pricing.

Do people really have philosophical objections to less government interference in the free market? Removing patent protection would have the effect everywhere of dropping drug prices to a small fraction of the present cost. All drugs would be generics. An enormous gain in efficiency in the USA would arise from simply not doing idiotic things - like spending enormous sums on drug marketing, more than on research. The USA got along very well for a long time - almost all the 20th century, without nail fungus infomercials. Under the current system, the drug cos have an enormous financial incentive to lie about their wares' safety and effectiveness, concoct imaginary plagues and their cures, etc. So of course they do. The dogma that competition and high prices spur research, which would diminish under the various public funding schemes is frankly BS, argued from a theoretical basis, like much modern writing on economics, with not even an attempt to look at the real world. Thinking about "the advisability of the public sector getting into the pharmaceutical research business" ignores the fact that it always has been in that business, quite successfully. The US model was once closer to what people like Baker and Stieglitz suggest, more gummint supported research, much less private research, and lower drug costs and it had more (or at least as much) innovation than nowadays. (The turning point might have been the Bayh-Dole Act). Import controls, which currently help keep prices high in the super-protected US market, would be eliminated, not enlarged.John Z (talk) 05:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

It does not have to be either/or. You could have both private and government business going on at the same time, as I believe happens with 'defence', and as happens with UK healthcare. There is lots of cheap labour from research students. It would I expect be a very good thing to publish all research findings rather than keeping them as commercial secrets, and to pool the knowledge and resources from several countries, including avoiding too much duplication of effort as someone pointed out. The are various pan-government humanitarian agencies, a World Medicines Organisation would be a good one to add, particularly as they would be interested in developing treatments for third-world illnesses that would not otherwise be done due to them not being profitable. 89.241.144.51 (talk) 09:14, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. The specific method of drug research financing, whether performed by public or private institutions, is not as important as getting out of the worst of all possible systems which we have now. The main thing is to get rid of patent monopolies and high drug prices, which cause enormous economic inefficiency. I think most posters above do not realize how big the economic benefit would be, not a few billion, but tens or hundreds of billions, probably larger than removing all other trade protectionist measures put together. Baker and others estimate that just the deadweight loss due to drug monopolies in the USA is something like $60 -100 billion, something on the order of 0.5% of GDP, and his 2004 paper I linked to lists other significant efficiencies to be gained by different research financing.John Z (talk) 10:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The Bluebelle

Here is a very recent story about the Bluebelle: Decades Later, Sea Tragedy Survivor Breaks Silence. Does Wikipedia have any articles at all about this event? I tried all of the obvious search terms, and I could not find anything at all. Thank you. (64.252.65.146 (talk) 17:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC))

I don't see one either, looking for Alone: Orphaned on the Ocean or her last name. Comet Tuttle (talk) 19:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I have started a stub based on the above source and other sources found at this google news search: [16]. The article is at Bluebelle (ship). Anyone can now edit it to add info. Its an interesting story; I may take a crack at expanding this into a full article as well. --Jayron32 20:21, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree that it is an interesting — actually, fascinating — story. That was why I assumed that Wikipedia would have had something on it already. Especially since this happened so long ago (1961, I believe). Thanks for starting the article. (64.252.65.146 (talk) 20:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC))

You'd be surprised how much stuff Wikipedia doesn't have an article about. There's quite a lot actually, and the older a subject is, the less likely it is to find an article on it. Most of my recent article creations have been about forgotten but important subjects like this. See WP:NOTDONE. There's oodles of good subjects for articles which have not yet been created. It just takes someone like you to find it and notice it. --Jayron32 20:38, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Time_(magazine) published an article on 1 Dec 1961 here. Life_(magazine) published an article on the same date, which is here. Zoonoses (talk) 13:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

France Gini question

I was looking at this chart of Gini coefficients since 1950, and I was surprised to see that in 1960, France had by far the highest coefficient of any Western country listed, being even more of an outlier than the US is today. Why did France have such a uniquely high level of inequality compared to, say, Britain or Germany? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 20:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Algeria. --Jayron32 20:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Lazar, I spent about an hour on google last night trying to find an answer to this question. I ended up skimming through two papers by Thomas Piketty but I couldn't find an answer. I see the French Wikipedia has an article on Income inequality in France which (according to my reading of the google-translated version) doesn't use the gini index to measure inequality in its discussion. Anyway, just want to let you know that your question wasn't ignored and whatever the answer is, I'm sure Jayron's answer (whatever it is) is incomplete at best. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 07:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I think Jayron's answer is probably spot on. Algeria was part of Metropolitan France, so I would expect it to have been included in whatever dataset was used to come up with the Gini figures. DuncanHill (talk) 12:53, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Then why did it take so long to reach Germany and UK levels after 1962? There's a data point from the mid 70s that's still significantly higher than Germany and the UK. Another point from around 1980 that's marginally higher than Germany and well above the UK. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 13:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

A good question. Looking at our article on the Gini coefficient it does appear that there are several factors which may affect the figure and prevent it giving a "true" indication of egalitarianism. DuncanHill (talk) 13:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

May 7

April Fool's Day

Is it true that Crusaders originally did the April Fool's Day prank on the Muslims? Could this be the reason why Muslims hate April Fool's Day? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonic The Xtreme (talk • contribs) 01:41, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I've heard a lot of wacky things about the crusades, but I've never heard that! Where did you hear this? Adam Bishop (talk) 02:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, this is an April Fools joke itself. Someone posted a story on April 1 that claimed Muslims should not acknowledge April Fools because it is actually a celebration of the infidels that overthrew Muslim Spain. Therefore, it is an anti-Muslim holiday that is yet one more reason to hate everyone who is not Muslim. Of course, there is absolutely no truth of any kind to the joke that was posted, but many people want to find reasons to hate others (it doesn't matter if they are Muslim or not - many people just feel better if they hate others). So, a large number of Muslims have copied this story and passed it around to others who may want a little extra justification for their feelings. Now, it is at the point that any attempt to slip some truth into the story is seen as infidels trying to alter history to hide how evil they are. -- kainaw™ 05:14, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Race

Is this true that Noah's three sons married different women: Jaspheth married Oriental, Shem married white and Ham married Black? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonic The Xtreme (talk • contribs) 01:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The Bible does not say it, but it is true that there is a long tradition of interpretations of connecting Noah's sons as relating to the origins of human races and the founders of the three then-known continents. See Noah#Christian_perspectives, Shem#Racial_connotations, Ham,_son_of_Noah#The_existence_of_Ham, and Japheth#Ethnic_legends. There is no scientific backing for this, of course. Three sons, three continents... it's literally medieval logic. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you look at the tabula gentium in the book of Genesis, chapter 10, you'll see that Ham is basically listed as the ancestor of African peoples, as well as of those speakers of Semitic languages whom the Israelites didn't like, while Shem is basically the ancestor of the remaining Semitic-speaking peoples whom the Jews knew about, and Japheth is actually associated with Media ("Madai"), Anatolia (Gomer conventionally identified with Cimmerians etc.), and the Aegean. Very reputable scholars have speculated about the possiblity of a Japheth / Iapetus connection. Peoples whom the ancient Jews didn't know about aren't mentioned, and of course modern linguistic and ethnic classifications were not strictly followed... AnonMoos (talk) 04:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

200.144.37.3 (talk) 11:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a query or comment on any particular specific point in reply to my comments, or are you just trying to be snarky? AnonMoos (talk) 13:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

ways to represent ones art

i draw paintings and sketches how do i represent at an early age of 18...me just a starter,,i hav lot of talent and i can make reel things into real life ....they seem livig..at age of 18 no one can offer a new artist a place in his art gallery..please sugeest a better way —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniketwakure (talk • contribs) 04:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The libraries in my town sometimes hold exhibitions of the work of local artists, and anybody can ask to have their work exhibited. So does one of the bookshops, although they seem slightly more discriminating about the quality of the work. You can also approach a proper art gallery; I've done this once and been turned away with friendly advice about what sort of pictures the gallery owner knew she could sell; if I wanted produce some like that, she would exhibit them. There's also a cafe which has paintings for sale outside all the time, because I think the artist has some kind of friendship with the cafe owner. Finally, there's a local society of artists I might turn to for advice, if I were keen enough. 81.131.13.122 (talk) 07:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Polish-Soviet War  : is the soldier on the left a woman ?

2cd Polish "Death Hussars" Squadron in Lviv in 1920

.

Hello. I am just giving a look to one of your fine star articles (though beeing an average educated 65 years old gentleman, I simply ignored until now the Red Army underwent such a wiping out, back in the 20, makes me understand '40 later events...) and stumble on that 1920 photo. Is the soldier on the left a ( # 40ish years old) woman ? I notice wide hips, inward knees, long hair (maybe tied up into a bun under the french helmet ?) , & propension to self-adornment with flowers (more than the other soldiers...). And if yes, is she known, and does she have an article on WP ? . Thanks a lot, & T. y. PS & I hope I'll be able to find my way back to your rubrique, my brain is really no more now what it used to be... Arapaima (talk) 07:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Your left is our right, I assume (i.e. you mean left from the subjects point of view, the right side of the picture). Yes, that sure looks like a women to me. And you can use the "my contributions" link in the upper right corner to find all the pages you edited. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the soldier on the right (from the viewer's perspective), is most certainly a woman. I wonder if anyone knows her name as she would make a good subject for an article, providing there are published documents relating to her.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The online source of this image identifies her as Janina Walicka. So far, I couldn't find any more information about her. — Kpalion^(talk) 12:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I found a few tidbits of information about her online, but not much. Her full name is given either as Janina Walicka-Łada or Janina Łada-Walicka. She was born ca. 1885 and died in 1935, probably having spent all or most of her life in Lwów (now Lviv). She seems to have been more of a writer then a fighter. During the Polish-Ukrainian War (1918–1919) in Lwów, she was part of the editorial staff of Pobudka ("Reveille"), a four-page daily newspaper with reports from the frontline and Polish propaganda. The editor-in-chief was Artur Schroeder, who is also on the photograph above (left of the banner) and has an entry in Polish Wikipedia (pl: Artur Schroeder). After the war, she made her living as a translator of French literature (she translated works by Francis Jammes, among others). She also published her own books, such as Wierna straż ("Faithful Guard", 1919) and Ułani! Ułani! Malowane dzieci ("Uhlans! Uhlans! The Painted Children", 1921), apparently war memoirs; you should be able to browse the latter book online here. Sources: [17], [18], [19], [20] (all in Polish). I hope that helps. Not sure if all that makes her notable enough for a Wikipedia entry, though. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:46, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

On the title page of Ułani! Ułani!..., the author is described as "Janina Łada Walicka, Corporal of the 2nd Squadron, 3rd Cavalry Division of the Lesser Poland Units of Volunteer Army" (Janina Łada Walicka, kapral II-go szwadronu III-go dywizjonu jazdy M.O.A.O.) — Kpalion^(talk) 20:28, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

UK election results: "others"?

At the bottom of their results table [21] the BBC is reporting that "others" have gained one seat (and some other other has lost one seat). Where can I find out which parties or independent MPs are being referred to? 81.131.13.122 (talk) 07:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

timesonline.co.uk is the first place I'd look, other than the BBC. 69.228.170.24 (talk) 07:52, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The gain is the independent Sylvia Hermon in North Down, and the loss is in Wyre Forest, where the independent Dr Richard Taylor lost to the Conservatives. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, very good, thank you. 213.122.1.69 (talk) 08:35, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Richard Taylor is not entirely independent - he is part of the Independent Kidderminster Hospital and Health Concern party, which also has several local councillors. Warofdreams talk 16:22, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Conducting business meetings on wikis

Which organizations have attempted to conduct formal meetings on a wiki, as the primary mode of communication during the meeting, not just for noticing or recording agendas or the summarized minutes? What were their experiences? URLs please, if possible. Thank you. 71.198.176.22 (talk) 07:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The United States intelligence community uses Intellipedia for "collaborative data sharing," and the Department of State uses Diplopedia for similar purposes. Hope that helps. --Cerebellum (talk) 16:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Wives of Henry VIII

My History teacher always said that Henry VIII had eight wives. As a distraction in Class we used to ask him as we knew he had a stormy Marriage. He was quite clear, though, that Henry had eight. So, how many did he have? MacOfJesus (talk) 08:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

What I am curious to know is who gave your former teacher permission to teach history?! I would think he'd have been better off working at a day care centre reading the children fairy tales. Eight wives??!! The average elementary student knows he only had six (Isn't that enough for a monarch?). Jesus wept!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Note to Bernard, the above remark wasn't an insult directed at you, but rather at your former teacher who was clearly not qualified to teach history!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:28, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Teaching FAIL. By the way, do you know if your school has made any major budget cuts as of late? Because that could explain your history teacher's incompetence... 24.189.90.68 (talk) 08:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The history teacher in question was the most qualified and most of us went on to take history as a major subject. It does depend on; what is a wife, a marriage, a wedding, and capasity for marriage. If you were to ask me then; one, only. He, the teacher, would always end his dissertation with: "Somepeople find one enough!", and a sigh, straight from the heart. In subsquent marriages he always, I think, insisted that the door was locked-shut and hence a disqualifing criteria, according to civil-law. Hence, it is not such a simple question.MacOfJesus (talk) 09:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you were to ask me then; one, only. Well, a marriage ceases with death of one of the spouses, right? So, Henry had to have at least three wives for he married Jane Seymour after the death of Catherine of Aragon (thus, as a widower in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church), never consumated his marriage to Anne of Cleves (making that marriage non-existing) and finally married Catherine Parr after sending Catherine ParrCatherine Howard to the block. Thus, even a Roman Catholic has to acknowledge Jane Seymour and the Protestantism-leaning Catherine Parr as Henry's wives. Surtsicna (talk) 15:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The fifth wife was Catherine Howard, the last one he sent to the chopping block. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Of course, I mentioned both the 5th and the 6th as Catherine Parr. Silly me! Surtsicna (talk) 21:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

It's easy to get those Catherines mixed up. Maybe that was Henry's problem too. 3 Catherines and 2 Annes. How did Jane get in there? He must have liked her in Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Henry VIII and his 6 wives, or Henry VI and his 8 wives, whichever is the greater. If we're getting answers by non-standard definitions of words, then my answer to "How many wives did Henry VIII have?" is "Cucumber". Otherwise, he had six. FiggyBee (talk) 10:04, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Hence, what is:

1. a Marriage.

2. a wife/husband.

3. necessary capasity for marriage.

4. how far does civil law effectively rule on this.

5. common-law man and wife.

??

MacOfJesus (talk) 10:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Crazy questions <==> crazy responses. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you ask a silly question, then you are sure to get a silly answer. But the list above reaches into the legal world and and our assumptions that need questioning. So how safe is our marriages? MacOfJesus (talk) 10:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

No safer than our marriage are.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what the OP means by "safe". In any case, Henry VIII had six wives. He also had mistresses, but they didn't count as "wives". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:15, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Didn't the television show, QI say something about him only having 2 wives, can't remember the details. Mo ainm~Talk 11:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wives of Henry VIII, linked above, covers this. Since marriages 1, 2, 4 and 5 were annulled, they are void and don't count towards QI's total. Nevertheless, there were six women what at some point were described as Henry VIII's wife. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:33, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I maintain he only had one, as he engendered the others in such a way that they were doubtfully valid, knowingly, so he could not clame, therefore, subsquently, that he was common-law man and wife. Hence, only one. By safe, I mean binding, for better, for worse, in sickness, in health,...

MacOfJesus (talk) 12:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

And which one would that be? By the way, I wish I had had your history teacher when I was in school. What fun I'd have had!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The first, of course, that was made properly. Civil law then said only one, then and now. Anyone who disagreed usually lost their heads, or came to a sudden end, but that does not change law. MacOfJesus (talk) 12:20, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, whoever disagreed with Henry VIII usually lost his or her head such as Sir Thomas More who took the stance that Catherine was his rightful wife; as did the Roman Catholic Church which was why he severed ties with Rome.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:08, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but Catherine of Aragon died in 1536, so if Henry was not divorced, he would at least be a widower by the time of his marriage to Anne of Cleves in 1540. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:33, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe your teacher was thinking of I'm Henery the Eighth, I Am, where the narrator is the eighth husband of the widow next door. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:06, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's possible he had just watched Herman's Hermits on YouTube- LOL. Bernard, you mentioned Henry's marriage to Catherine of Aragon having been made properly. Well, if you read the articles on Henry VIII, Catherine of Aragon, and Anne Boleyn, you will see that Henry had strong doubts as to the validity of his marriage to her, seeing as the Bible in the Book of Leviticus proscribed marriages between a man and his brother's widow (which Catherine was). That was what started the ball of the English Reformation rolling. The doubts had begun before he became enmeshed in the throes of violent desire for Lady Anne, so the latter cannot take the entire rap for his wish to seek an annulment from Queen Catherine.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:38, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

When I was in 8th grade, lo these many centuries ago, my teacher insisted that the capital of Brazil is Rio de Janeiro. I had to take my atlas to school to prove to her that, no, the capital of Brazil is Brasilia. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 18:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Rio was the capital until 1960 though, so that might be somewhat understandable if you were in 8th grade in like 1963 vs 1990. Googlemeister (talk) 19:41, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I remember when Rio ceased to be capital and Brazilia became so ! MacOfJesus (talk) 21:13, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't, but I certainly remember when the capital of Germany was not Berlin. :) FiggyBee (talk) 22:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I understand, that when the Marriage to Catherine of Aragon was envisaged all the necessary dispensations civil and otherwise would have been granted beforehand. Henry, bringing up these doubts postiae would be a non sequitur, as at the time he wished the marriage, and gone into beforehand. MacOfJesus (talk) 21:13, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Henry pretty much did what he wanted to. Trying to re-count his 6 wives based on current law is not really valid. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

And this starts to become a slippery slope, because if his first wife was not legitimate, neither was their daughter who was nonetheless the queen for awhile, so apparently at the time it was considered legitimate. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Civil law's regulations are binding on marriage and their regulations effect the validity thereof. This is the case then and now. MacOfJesus (talk) 21:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

So England had at least two illegitimate rulers, Mary I and Elizabeth I? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Or maybe it's just one or the other. If his first marriage was improper, then Mary 1 was eligitimate and Anne Boleyn was truly his first wife, and Elizabeth I was legitimate. If his first marriage was proper and the divorce was improper, then Mary I was legitimate and Elizabeth I was illegitimate. However, if go by what the sources say, all 6 wives counted, and all 3 kids he produced via those 6 marriages were legitimate. Apparently Edward VI, son via Jane Seymour, was legitimate no matter how you slice it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Elizabeth I was illegitimate any way you look at it. She was considered illegitimate by the Roman Catholic Church from the moment she was born and she was considered illegitimate by the Church of England from the moment her parents' marriage was annulled. Elizabeth succeeded per Third Succession Act - without the Act, theoretically, she would not have right to the crown being illegitimate. Elizabeth herself was aware of her "double" illegitimacy; while the first thing her sister Mary I did upon accession was declaring that she was legitimate and that the marriage of her parents had been valid, Elizabeth I never did such a thing. Of course, the issue of Elizabeth's illegitimacy was carefully ignored (though never denied) during her reign. Surtsicna (talk) 21:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Uh... if there was a law declaring her to be the queen, then by law she was legitimate, ja? And if his first marriage was invalid according to religious law (as someone else mentioned earlier), then Anne Boleyn was his first wife, and then Liz I would be legitimate anyway, right? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, I see... both Mary and Liz were "technically" illegitimate, but the 3rd succession act said they could serve anyway, if Eddie didn't produce any kids (which he didn't), and furthermore it was off-with-their-heads if anyone challenged the 3rd succession act. So be careful what you say, or you might end up in the Tower waiting for a cheap and chippy chopper. >:) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

That's right! They were declared to be eligble to succeed but were still considered illegitimate; that's why the Act stipulated that any child (even a daughter) born by Catherine Parr would rank ahead of both Mary and Elizabeth in the line of succession. Had Henry had a daughter by his last wife, she would have succeeded Edward instead of Mary (being daughter of his wife and not of his sister-in-law/mistress). Henry's first marriage was declared invalid by the Church of England, but never by the Roman Catholic Church. Henry's second marriage was thus never valid from the POV of the RC Church. Then the CoE declared the second marriage null and void on the grounds of Anne's previous marriage contract with the Earl of Northumerland and/or on the grounds that Henry cohabited with Anne's sister Mary (just like his 1st marriage was annulled on the grounds that Catherine cohabited with Henry's brother). Surtsicna (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, and the point of all this is not who Henry was fooling around with, but who were the rightful heirs to the throne. If kings were elected instead of being hereditary, this wouldn't be a problem. I wonder if this legitimacy issue has anything to do with why Liz was childless. Because if she had had children, it would have seriously complicated matters, yes? Back to the original question, how many wives did Henry VIII have, the conventional answer is 6, although there are debates about several of them. I wonder if that teacher was counting the 2 known mistresses in the total? Because, truth to tell, the way Henry managed his personal life, the line between wife and mistress was a tad blurry. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for coming back to the question. Yes, the teacher was including those two. To our objection, the teacher said that Henry was the Law. Comon law man and wife was mentioned. We questioned the validity of this. MacOfJesus (talk) 23:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

We would call his opinion "original research". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Unrelated question: Did Henry VIII really wear a codpiece to show he was "sexually powerful", or was my history class reading too much into the fact when my history teacher said he wore a codpiece? Ks0stm ^(T•C•G) 23:46, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't that a pretty common item of attire in those days?

Yep, codpieces were a standard item of fashion in England in the early 16th century. See 1500-1550 in fashion#Overview 2. FiggyBee (talk) 00:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

As I said: We had a good history teacher! MacOfJesus (talk) 00:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

If you come to The Tower of London you can see Henry's attire, first hand. MacOfJesus (talk) 00:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

John Dudley, 1st Duke of Northumberland used Mary and Elizabeth's alleged illegitimacy as an excuse to usurp the Crown for his daughter-in-law Lady Jane Grey. Henry had deliberately excluded his elder sister Margaret's Scottish descendants from the succession in his will.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Too bad there weren't tabloids then - they would have had endless material. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:17, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Please take a look at Talk:Elizabeth I of England#Elizabeth and Mary - stepsisters or half-sisters?!. A user claims that Mary and Elizabeth were not sisters and puts that original research into articles! Henry's family life was complicated but at least we know who were his daughters. Surtsicna (talk) 13:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I have commented there. What some people don't realise is that authors of fiction put notions like that into their novels just as tabloid-style sensationalism in order to sell more copies. Nowadays, readers want spice not truth, alas.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't loose your head! I do agree what people want is novelty; "always itching for something new", not truth! MacOfJesus (talk) 14:12, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, loosing one's head is a bad idea, because it could wobble around so much that it eventually breaks off, then you'll most likely lose it because you've got other things on your mind, such as the fact that your mind has been separated from your body. Not to mention that you're dead now.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:46, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Elected

I went to vote yesterday and met my local Labour coucilor, who convinced me to change my vote, I would like to know if he was reelected, how do I find out the results for my area? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 08:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Surprisingly I can't find any information but from what I remember they don't even start counting the local council elections votes until they have finished counting the general election ones. If I'm right you will not be able to find out until tomorrow. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes you can: BBC.co.uk election ,then put in your area in the appropriate box and wait. Expect to wait as the whole of the UK are doing the same! Did you vote, and for whom? MacOfJesus (talk) 09:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

That provides the local results detailing which MP was elected in the general election, but there were also a number of local council elections taking place yesterday (in Plymouth, for example). It's not clear which the OP is asking about, but the word "councilor" provides a strong clue. 81.131.21.170 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC).

Oh, but: [22] the BBC do have the local council results, in handy A-Z form. Perhaps that was what MoJ meant. 81.131.21.170 (talk) 11:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the BBC's site doesn't tell you who was elected; there's no names, just parties and number of seats. FiggyBee (talk) 18:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Your local council's website will probably have the results (eg Salford, Notlob...) FiggyBee (talk) 10:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you want the full results, then ring your local Constituints Office. MacOfJesus (talk) 10:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The site is now: BBC.co.uk election results , then when the varius options come up under Google, choose 2010 results. OK? MacOfJesus (talk) 12:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Anonymous reviews in The New York Times

Who could possibly write this review:

• Swinburne's "Studies in Songs". The New York Times, December 19, 1880, page 4. - ??

If pinpointing the author is ruled out, maybe it is possible to narrow the pool of "the usual suspects"? What kind of people used to review poetry in NYC of 1880? I hope not the poets themselves... TIA, East of Borschov (talk) 15:37, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

None of the reviews in that issue — or the articles, for that matter — have by-lines. I think triangulating the authors would be a non-trivial task. 19th-century periodicals are generally pretty different than modern ones in many respects, their way of handling authorship being one of them. My impression is that editors were more important than authors, on the whole. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Social proximity — jargon terms for types of propinquity? (Sociology/Social Philosophy)

According to dictionary.com (and roughly consistent with the Wikipedia page):

propinquity

–noun

1. nearness in place; proximity.

2. nearness of relation; kinship.

3. affinity of nature; similarity.

4. nearness in time.

I'd always thought it only meant the first definition and was associated with proximity. Apparently not. So what, if anything, is the jargon term one would use to specifically refer to the third definition above?

Example: people that live in proximal apartments or work in the same office have proximity as the basis for a relationship (what I thought was propinquity); but what about people that share interests, such as in wine tasting, or discussing social philosophy?

Bonus points: the latter seems to be the basis for many specialized on-line social networks (flixster, goodreads), whereas facebook is perhaps an adjunct to pre-existing relationships. Is there an academic journal or other forum that specializes in these things?

Thanks. -- MrRedwood (talk) 16:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

[Your comments and questions reminded me of the article Six degrees of separation. It might not actually deal with your specific questions, but it seems to be close enough that it probably would be of interest. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)]

You may wish to see Erdős number and Erdös Number Project. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for both of those; I took a look and they were both interesting examples of proximal relationships of some kind (btw, on Erdös, have you seen this?). But I'm interested in the academic abstraction — its hard to do research when one doesn't know the tightly focused jargon terms the academics use. -- MrRedwood (talk) 23:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

No, I had not seen that. You might find websites to help you with jargon if you use http://www.google.com/Top/Society/. I can also suggest http://vark.com/ and http://www.google.com/Top/Reference/Ask_an_Expert/. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Robert Simon Telfer Scott DSM and HMS Havelock Norway 1940

OTRS received the following email today. The sender wanted me to relay this question to you (spelling has been corrected):

Hi.

I am just wondering if you can help me as i have tried everything that i can but without success, i have sat here at my computer for hours but have not been able to get the information that i want.

My uncle as outlined above was in the British Navy for 23 years and in the last world war he was on HMS Havelock in Norway when he was awarded the DSM Medal which he got at Buckingham Palace on the 13th March 1940.

The problem is this none of the family that are left no why he got the medal as he never discussed the war with anyone which is very sad.

Can you help me or point me in the right direction. i have been in touch with the Naval secretary who says that the citation and papers on the matter were kept at Kew but have now been destroyed,why i ask myself have they done that without at least taking a microcopy of them.

I do hope you can help me as i have spent hours at this computer trying for an answer,someone out there must have the answer but where. IS there a site that i can log onto as if so can you please help.

Thank you,

Dallas woods Mr

In a separate email, he stated this:

Hi again.

I have just sent you an e-mail re the above but have not given you the following information.

His navel number was p/jx 130249 and he was a leading seaman when he got the medal.

He was born on the 3rd Dec 1910 and died on the 15th March 1991.

Thank you.

Dallas woods

Can any military history experts on the RefDesk help? Thanks, Willking1979 (talk) 17:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Your uncle's DSM was part of a large batch of awards made "for services in Norway". The captain of the Havelock received the DSO in the same group of awards. The London Gazette entry is here (your uncle's name appears on the next page). The exact action which won Robert Scott his DSM may be lost to history, unless you can find someone who was there, but there's a brief summary of H88's contribution to the Norwegian Campaign here - following up the book references on that page might prove fruitful. FiggyBee (talk) 17:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, note the date on the Gazette conflicts with your information. The 13th of March would have been too early for Norway. FiggyBee (talk) 18:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Does this page help you? [23] --TammyMoet (talk) 19:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Anne Boleyn

I have read all articles I can find and consulted the library attached to St Paul's Cathedral. I can find no record of a PUBLIC wedding for Anne Boleyn to Henry V111. I understand they were married privately in the winter of 1532/1533. Later, when Henry's marriage to Katherine of Aragon was declared void, the marriage was accepted and Anne was crowned Queen Consort about month later. Was there a public marriage and, if so, where did it take place? Elspeth M Cavendish (talk) 19:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Of course they didn't want a public marriage... she had her head tucked underneath her arm Shii (tock) 20:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't her alleged supernumerary breast have got in the way? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure you've already read our Anne Boleyn article, which mentions two "secret" wedding ceremonies. The article doesn't specifically say there was no public ceremony. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:51, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

There was no public ceremony. They were married twice in secret, and her first official public appearance was her procession (by litter) through London from the Tower to Westminster Abbey where she was crowned queen the following day on 1 June 1533. The marriage had been proclaimed several days earlier on 28 May after Archbishop Cranmer declared Henry's marriage to Catherine had been "null and void". And Jack, she did not have an extra breast, a goiter on her neck or a sixth finger; these were rumours spread by hostile Imperialists and Catholics to portray her as a witch.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I know, Jeanne. That's why I said "alleged". But the version I've heard is that these claims were used by Henry as "evidence" to support the charges that led to her beheading. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 09:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Anne was charged with High Treason, not witchcraft, of which the penalty was death by burning. Henry actually used God's denial of living male offspring as proof that she had bewitched him, but she was never formally accused of having practised witchcraft. Remember in the 16th century, it was believed that the female determined the child's sex, hence the appeal of Jane Seymour who had a plethora of brothers. Henry also had lamented that Anne had used sorcery to kill his sons while they were in her womb. (Nice one Henry, obviously overlooking the fact that the birth of a son would have saved Anne!)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:25, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe Jeanne Boleyn may be slightly ambiguous on one point. To amplify, in England witchcraft in the sense of mere maleficium (sorcery intended to harm another, the more common charge over several centuries) was generally not in itself a capital offense. Increasingly during the early modern period, however, witchcraft per se was characterised and prosecuted as heresy, which was a capital offense, but in England heretics were normally hanged (though in Scotland they were indeed burned), while burning was reserved for those (commoners) guilty of treason.

Treason, however, could be either 'High' - directed against the monarch, etc, or 'Petty' - directed against one's spouse (usually husband). Thus if a female witch was found guilty of attempted or actual murder of her husband by sorcery she could be sentenced to burn either for heresy or for petty treason.

Anne, therefore, could potentially have been accused and sentenced to be hanged for Sorcery, or burned for Heresy or High Treason or Petty Treason, but in the event was given the 'noble' execution of beheading.

An excellent, detailed and scholarly reference dealing with such matters (though barely mentioning Anne Boleyn herself) in 16th- and 17th-century England is Religion and the Decline of Magic by Keith Thomas. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

My point is Anne Boleyn was executed for High Treason as well as adultery and incest. Not once were charges of witchcraft or heresy levelled against her. It should be noted that adultery committed by a queen consort was treason in England which normally carried the sentence of burning. Henry, out of clemency commuted the sentence to beheading by sword.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:12, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

any sex symbols who worked as a pair?

are there any sex icons who did their profession as a pair, a la Gilbert and Sullivan? Thank you. 84.153.199.22 (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

It depends on your definition, for both parts of the question. I know there's a list, but I'm not convinced it's either complete or properly cited. Also, do you mean once, or multiple times? Tracy and Hepburn come to mind, although they were more like regular movie stars, as opposed to "sex symbols". Likewise with the pair who did the Thin Man series. Cary Grant and Mae West, who are both on the list, did a movie together, but only one or at most two. For that matter, so did the younger Tom Cruise and the older Paul Newman, in the sequel to the Newman-Gleason film about the pool sharks. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman, and also Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz, have done a few movies together, if that counts. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers? Burton and Taylor? Kittybrewster ☎ 21:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to ask at the Entertainment Desk? — Kpalion^(talk) 21:35, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Marcello Mastroianni and Sophia Loren, Montgomery Clift and Elizabeth Taylor (twice), Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, Terence Stamp and Julie Christie.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Gilbert and Sullivan were sex icons??!!! Anyway my first thought was Mulder and Scully. Or (for a certain mostly female fan subculture), Kirk/Spock, pronounced "Kirk slash Spock". 69.228.170.24 (talk) 07:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Those sideburns and moustaches? Phwoar. FiggyBee (talk) 11:40, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Gilbert and Sullivan would be sex symbols on the same order as the Smith Brothers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

If the U.S. Government stopped printing paper money tomorrow, what would happen?

40 years ago this would have led to rapid deflation, right? As the supply of paper money in circulation dwindled? But now, with everyone having electronic banking in their wallets and purses, would the cessation of money printing in America really have any non-trivial effects? 61.189.63.151 (talk) 23:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The last time I was at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, they said most of the money they print is to replace worn-out bills returned to them by the federal reserve banks. If you stop doing that, you'll eventually run out of bills, and then you'll have to carry a boatload of dollar coins in your man-purse. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

What would have happened 40 years ago, and would happen today if people and institutions didn't quickly adapt to all-electronic money (which is still far from something that everyone has), is the currency would become effectively unusable (you're "phasing out" bills with nothing replacing them) and the economy would completely collapse. The elimination of cash might have unpredictable effects on the black market and other criminal activities. FiggyBee (talk) 23:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

The questioner did specify just the removal of paper currency, and not the "elimination of cash". Presumably dollar coins (and other coinage) would still be available, and would become standard for small transactions, as Bugs suggests. Checks would make a big comeback, I guess. People paid under the table would face some special challenges. Overall, the economy would suffer because of the increased difficulty of conducting routine business. —Kevin Myers 08:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Americans have shown a curious resistance to using any coin larger than 25c. Unless the mints started producing masses of coins, the small number of large coins in circulation would be unable to take up much slack left by an absence of bills. I don't think coins would be usable for anything other than what they're used for now (extremely small transactions, a cup of coffee or a newspaper). FiggyBee (talk) 11:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

One reason (as I alluded to earlier) is that men generally don't carry purses, and dollar coins tend to be heavy. Another problem used to be that very few vending machines would take them, and when you would get a Susie or a Sacagawea in change at a store, you would dump spend it at some other store as soon as possible. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:15, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

My partner (who is American) was amazed at how chunky and heavy Australian coins are. But on the other hand, as I pointed out to her, a two dollar coin is an awful lot lighter and easier to handle than eight quarters! FiggyBee (talk) 12:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Most modern vending machines take dollar bills. They probably take dollar coins, too, but most folks are not in the habit of using them. The fact is, unless the government stops making them, the dollar bill will continue to be preferred. When they went with the Susie, they continued to print dollar bills. As with feeble attempts to bring in the metric system, if you keep the old system around, very few have incentive to change. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

If you meant they stopped creating new money (ignoring the whole replacing damaged money) the quantity theory of money would suggest that you are correct. The whole electronic money supply thing is not really that important because to create electronic money banks do need some amount of "real" money, see fractional reserve banking --124.186.89.122 (talk) 11:59, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

May 8

English Democrats in Wales

Can anyone in Britain inform me why the English Democrats Party has run for the Welsh Assembly? 03:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Member (talk • contribs)

Probably, but the very first article you linked to unsurprisingly also can... (see the '#Welsh Assembly elections' section for starters) Nil Einne (talk) 06:53, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Short Story Collection

I am looking for a short story collection, possibly edited by Isaac Asimov, or featuring one of his stories. The first story is about a man who awakens without any memory and is given a series of physical and mental tests. It turns out that scientists have been putting different personalities into his body in an effort to find the perfect one for interstellar travel. Any idea of the title/author? dlempa (talk) 04:18, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like Larry Niven's A World Out of Time, though that's a novel, not a short story collection. It's possible that an excerpt was published in one of Niven's collections. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:39, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The story "Rammer", which is the basis for the novel, is in A Hole in Space and Playgrounds of the Mind. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Although dlempa's memory of the story may be imperfect, it does not quite match "Rammer", in which (Spoiler Warning) the protagonist wakes up in another body (of a mindwiped criminal), but well remembers his past life prior to his having been cryogenically preserved. However, it's true that several other personalities/minds had previously been retrieved from "corpsicles" and had failed to measure up. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:19, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Classical buildings with asymmetric pediment

Resolved

The picture at the top of [24] shows a fictional building from the Pokémon franchise. What I like about it is the asymmetric pediment. Now, my question is not so much where the animators drew their inspiration from. (That would be one for the E desk.) What I want to know is if there are any (neo-)classical buildings, from before about 1800 AD, that have a similar asymmetry. I have never seen anything like this, and something tells me the Greeks would have abhorred this. Thank you in advance. 83.81.60.11 (talk) 07:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Is not the "asymmetrical pediment" a factory-style one sided clerestory? Such things are more a feature of modern gymnasiums than ancient temples-for one thing, you'd need very light and strong roofing materials. FiggyBee (talk) 11:38, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that appears more like a Clerestory then an asymetrical pediment. The whole fictional building smacks of Postmodernism with its clash of architectural styles. There is a strong Mannerist influence, and the roof line is very much in keeping with the Constructvist movement. In total though, this clash of styles makes this building, if it was real, post modern ( the corinthian colums in front not supporting anything also helps!).--Found5dollar (talk) 14:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Not that they would abhor it ... rather, these will simply not survive the time - vernacular oddities come and go unnoticed. As FiggyBee said, asymmetric roofing is quite a challenge structurally, so its use had to be limited to smaller buildings. East of Borschov (talk) 13:00, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I hadn't thought of that. Indeed you might be able to build this today, but not two millennia ago, not on this scale. Well, I would have loved for someone to say: "Oh yeah, there's this 2nd century building a lot like this in Rome!", but that is not going to happen then. I agree with the other comments as well. I am going to mark this resolved, but if anyone has anything to add, please do so anyway. Thank you all. 83.81.60.233 (talk) 15:47, 8 May 2010 (UTC) (Yes, my IP address has changed, apparently.)

First French national anthem

While it's a known fact that La Marseillaise was composed in 1792, was there a prior national anthem sung in France during the Bourbon régime or was this the first?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

• Talking entirely off the top of my head - national anthems are quite a modern idea - God Save the King is often quoted as the first one. Its origins are disputed but it wasn't widely known before the 1745 Rebellion and I believe it was some years afterwards that began to be used in any official capacity. Therefore, I'd be surprised if the Kings of France had any music that would fit the modern idea of a national anthem.

Thanks. If La Marseillaise is indeed the first French national anthem the article should state this.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I have since added to the La Marseillaise article that it was France's first ever anthem. Thank you again for your help.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Someone had added an uncited claim that the previous anthem was "Land of the Free". I very much doubt a monarchy would have such a theme song, plus I couldn't find anything about it in google. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:02, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

This page[25] gives more details about national anthems in France; La Marseillaise only being used from 1795-99 and from 1870 onwards. Napoleon apparently had no use for a national anthem (sorry Tchaikovsky - you got that bit wrong) and the restored French monarchy (1815-30) used "Le retour des Princes Français à Paris" and "Où peut-on être mieux qu'au sein de sa famille". Louis-Philippe (1830-1848) used "La Parisienne" and Napoleon III went for "Partant pour la Syrie" perhaps because it may have been written by his mum. I think the "Land of the Free" thing needs to go. I couldn't find anything on Google either, even when I tried to translate it into Franglais. Alansplodge (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

That was actually in the National anthem article. It was posted by a one-shot who was just messing around with things. It be gone. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

.Going by the link Alansplodge provided, La Marseillaise was the first anthem in France, as well as the first European march style of anthem. I have added it to the article as well as the part about it having been adopted by the international revolutionary movement, including the Paris Commune in 1871.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:08, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The Destruction of Bruchsal in 1945

I have a question regarding the Allied destruction of the city of Bruchsal in 1945.

It stems from information from Perry Biddiscombe in his book on the German partisan movement (Werwolf). According to Biddiscombe, in his section on Allied reprisals; U.S. combat troops destroyed the town of Bruchsal in retaliation for unclear SS activities.

The problem here is that apparently information on what happened to Bruchsal is confusing.

• 1. The troops that occupied Bruchsal were French, as Biddiscombe himself notes in a separate paper on non-fraternisation where he notes that the French troops that moved in on April 2 1945 committed 600 rapes in the town.

• 2. The wikipedia article itself on the town states that the town was destroyed and 1000 killed by Allied bombing on March 1, 1945, with the front-line only 20 km away. Apparently the bombing had no purpose, it was simply a retaliation for some peasants lynching an Allied aviator.[26]

• 3. Another source states that Buchenau (a city "suburb" of Bruchsal) was destroyed by American artillery fire on February 2, 1945.[27]

Does anyone have info that could clear up exactly what Biddiscombe is referring to? Is it the U.S. artillery shelling that destroyed 80% of one part of the city on February 2, 1945. And what was the real reason behind the shelling in that case?

--Stor stark7 ^Speak 12:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I found the 1 March bombing mentioned in a number of different bomber group histories (example); they all say it was aimed at the marshalling yards and do not mention a reprisal motive.

According to the German wikipedia article on Büchenau, the 2/3 February destruction of Büchenau was from the air, the result of a failed RAF mission to bomb Karlsruhe. I found a mention of that mission here. --Cam (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea of Mankind waging war against God

I'm aware that this is a touchy subject. I'd like to make clear that I'm not making a point, or looking for a religious debate, or anything like that -- I'd just like to learn about the historical background of this idea.

The idea summed up is: If a vengeful God (such as described in the Old Testament) existed, the only rational choice for humankind would be to wage war against such a being.

I've bumped into this kind of reasoning in a couple of fictional narratives, the latest one being Dan Simmons' sci-fi novel 'Hyperion'. I'm kind of sure though, that this line of thought can be traced further back than a sci-fi novel. Is there a philosopher that this can be attributed to? Perhaps there's even an exact quote?

Thank you for your time :) 85.23.16.84 (talk) 14:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

You can find answers here and here. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

One could argue that Satanists wage war against God.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:49, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

What I'm really looking for is the source people like mr. Simmons used while writing his novel. While I admire Simmons as a writer, I doubt he personally came up with this idea. Nietzsche's writings did critique religion, and have influenced popular culture a bunch, perhaps that's as far as we can get? I don't know my philosophers very well, which is why I'm here. 85.23.16.84 (talk) 16:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea of waging war on God sounds like the plot line from Clash of the Titans. And since the God of Abraham is supposed to be all-powerful, it would be a little bit like a colony of ants trying to wage war on a lightning storm. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Or mortals waging war against Zeus.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

All things considered, the mortals' odds would be a lot better against Zeus than against "YHWH". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:46, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Good points, yet I still see this as more of a monotheistic religion thing. The whole idea is pretty much the ultimate expression of blasmephy: instead of speaking or rebelling against God, people unite with the purpose of utterly destroying him. This isn't nearly as radical an idea in a polytheistic religion -- there was no end to mortals pulling tricks on Zeus and the other gods of the Greek pantheon. Zigorney (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I feel strongly compelled to apologise to the OP for the responses, most of which haven't even tried to be helpful. Don't worry - there are people who will try to help you find an answer - it just seems that they're not one of them (neither am I - because I know nothing about the subject). Vimescarrot (talk) 21:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. He cannot be defeated by any force in the universe. That's what I was trying to get at. Hope that clears things up for you. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?}

But that's completely and utterly irrelevant to the original question. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

carrots→ 22:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC) I have to say that God is not depicted as vengeful in the Old Testament. ╟─TreasuryTag►constablewick─╢ 22:14, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you corroborate that assertion with specific references, TT? It seems contrary to the impression I, and most people I have discussed the matter with over the last 4 decades, have formed from reading the OT. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 22:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

What sort of references do you want?! I linked to the page Judaism, which is a large religion of people who worship God solely based on the Old Testament. God is regarded as "One and indivisible, transcendent and immanent, Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Source of the Moral Law, a God of justice and mercy who demands that human beings shall practise justice and mercy in their dealings with one another." ╟─TreasuryTag►most serene─╢ 08:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

(I am the IP who posted this question) All right, I did kind of promise that I don't want a religious debate, but I can't resist responding to this. Sorry.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" Exodus 20:5

This seems rather vengeful, and is attributed to Lord Himself, no less. Zigorney (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The "children suffer for their parents' sins" passage is revoked by God in Ezekiel 18:2-4 – "What do you mean by quoting this proverb, The fathers eat sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge? As sure as I live, declares the Sovereign God, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel." I assume you forgot that bit!

There are also countless instances of God exercising mercy: Sodom and Gomorrah, the entire Book of Jonah, the final parts of the Book of Job... to name a few.

And I do hope you are not suggesting that Jews worship a vengeful and vicious God, because that is simply not the case. ╟─TreasuryTag►Captain-Regent─╢ 09:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I see your point. I don't want to press this any further, this really isn't the appropriate forum for this kind of debate. Zigorney (talk) 09:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Any book of religion is ultimately scribed by mortals. Vengeful would ultimately be a human perception, no?  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  22:59, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The concept of humanity warring against God can be traced all the way back to the Bible, for example in Psalms 78:56 "But they put God to the test and rebelled against the Most High" and Psalms 107:11 "for they had rebelled against the words of God and despised the counsel of the Most High." Beyond that, I am not aware of any philosophers who advocated waging war against God; Nietsche's "God is dead, and we have killed him, you and I!" refers more to humanity having rejected the concept of a God, either to plunge into nihilism or to become an Übermensch. Like you, however, I am not that well versed in my philosophy so maybe someone else can give us some more info.

If we go to literature, you can look at Milton's Paradise Lost, and the Romantic movement was pretty heavily into the idea of Satan as a hero; you can read more about that here. Particularly relevant is the quote, "in "Cain", Lucifer teaches mankind to rebel against a tyranny that blocks happiness, just as he himself rebelled against God." Jean Boleyn is correct that there is a lot of warfare against God in Satanist thought as well. In more modern times, The Sandman features Lucifer heavily, and I think I read something a while back, perhaps in an Orson Scott Card novel, a passage about how God is a tyrant and it is perfectly logical to rebel against him.

So basically, there are vague hints of the thought process you are referring to scattered all throughout Western thought, and somewhere there is probably even an exact source, but I don't know where it is. Cheers, --Cerebellum (talk) 01:55, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I think some of the posters here are confusing rebellion with warfare. Refusing to obey God's law is not warfare, it's rebellion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

(I am the IP who posted this question) Thanks for the answers so far! While it seems like there isn't a single person or an exact quote available, at least I have a bunch of new stuff to read :) Zigorney (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Japanese manga Neon Genesis Evangelion comes to mind after reading this discussion. --Belchman (talk) 10:22, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Evangelion (mecha). Hah, i'm glad we have japan. They know that including FIGHTING ROBOTS makes everything better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zigorney (talk • contribs) 10:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe an author seldom reveals the reason(s) for his or her idea(s), but you might wish to see the article Hyperion (Simmons novel).

-- Wavelength (talk) 13:59, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Karaite attitude towards adoption

The Letter of the Karaite elders of Ascalon (c. 1100) mentions a Jew named Abu S'ad, 'Son of the Wife of the Tustari' as being held ransom by the Crusaders. S.D. Goitein believes the reason he is called this is because the wife of the Karaite religious commentator Sahl b. Fadl (Yashar b. Hesed) al-Tustari had been married prior to him and the son was the product of that union. The Tustari's were ungodly rich and had personal ties to the caliphs of Egypt, so the Crusaders were no doubt aware of this. My question is would Abu S'ad have been treated as a blood relative of the family? Could he have laid claim to the family wealth and prestige? All of this ties in with the ransom. Abu S'ad does not appear in any other letter from the Cairo Geniza, so his fate is unclear. This doesn't necessarily mean he died in that situation. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Karaites deny the validity of any Jewish oral tradition accompanying the written law of the Five Books of Moses. As such, there's no validity to the bloodline relationship of an adoptee. In fact, you could probably figure out their laws yourself, as all they do is read the words literally and apply that as religious practice. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 03:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Size of the Forbidden City

It is the biggest palace in China that still stands today. But I was wondering how come the Ming Dynasty built the palace to be so small in comparison to the palaces Han Dynasty and Tang Dynasty. Weiyang Palace and Daming Palace was more than twice its size. How come, with the ambition that Yongle Emperor had, he didn't try to outdo his predecessors.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The Yongle Emperor article says the palace was moved (necessitating the construction of the Forbidden City) for military reasons. Perhaps a smaller compound was considered more easily defended? Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Helping poor students

What educational programs are available to help undernourished children of poor parents who are too busy to spend enough time helping them with their life skills and schoolwork and too poor to afford tutoring? -- Wavelength (talk) 19:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Boys and Girls Club? Their web site is here. Dismas|^(talk) 19:58, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

There are lots of programs for such children, but you will need to specify the location you are interested in if we're going to be able to name the relevant ones. I'm guessing you are talking about somewhere in the developing world, since undernourishment isn't really part of poverty in the modern developed world. --Tango (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I am interested in all locations, including those in developed countries such as the US. Please see Poverty in the United States#Food security and the outline Hunger, malnutrition, and poverty in the contemporary United States: Some observations on their social and cultural context. (By the way, I found the article School Breakfast Program.) -- Wavelength (talk) 21:00, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Over Half of Teachers Report Buying Hungry Students Food With Their Own Money. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Other general articles you might read: After-school activity, No Child Left Behind Act (U.S.), Bursary, Scholarship, Child Nutrition Act (U.S.), Student financial aid, School meal, Community centre. I believe in practice the programs available differ widely by country and even by city. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for those links. I just found the article Share Our Strength. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:00, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I found Share Our Strength Latest News - Nat'l Teacher Survey Shows Many Children Too Hungry to Learn.

-- Wavelength (talk) 02:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Was Tiberius a vegetarian?

Was Tiberius a vegetarian? Did he drink wine or hard alcoholic type drinks? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 19:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

He certainly drank wine and was actually considered a heavy drinker. According to Suetonius,

Even at the outset of his military career his excessive love of wine gave him the name of Biberius, instead of Tiberius, Caldius for Claudius, and Mero for Nero [Biberius Caldius Mero meaning roughly "mulled wine drinker"]. Later, when emperor and at the very time that he was busy correcting the public morals, he spent a night and two whole days feasting and drinking with Pomponius Flaccus and Lucius Piso, immediately afterwards making the one governor of the province of Syria and the other prefect of the city, and even declaring in their commissions that they were the most agreeable of friends, who could always be counted on. (...) He gave a very obscure candidate for the quaestorship preference over men of the noblest families, because at the emperor's challenge he had drained an amphora of wine at a banquet.

— Kpalion^(talk) 19:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

If by "hard alcoholic type drinks" you mean distilled spirits, they didn't exist in Roman times. The standard Roman drink was (watered-down) wine. I've never heard of Tiberius being a vegetarian; perhaps you'd get better answers if you told us the reason for the question. FiggyBee (talk) 20:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Although watered-down wine was the standard drink, Tiberius seems to have prefered undiluted wine, which may have reinforced his reputation as a wino. Here's another quote from Suetonius: "now 'tis for blood he is thirsting; this he as greedily quaffs as before wine without water [Latin: merum]." — Kpalion^(talk) 22:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Mostly just curious. Also in all the bust images of him it appears he shaved and did not grow a beard. Looks like he had good hygiene. Would that be good assumptions? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, let me put it another way; what makes you think Tiberius may have been a vegetarian? As for being clean-shaven, it was the fashion of the time. You'll find very few if any Roman busts, statues or portraits of the early Empire with beards or long hair. FiggyBee (talk) 21:19, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, see Beard#Ancient_Rome. That fact tells you nothing about his personal hygiene. You can find out about hygiene in Roman civilization in general at Hygiene#History_of_hygienic_practices. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Tiberius as a vegetarian was 50-50 guess. Thanks gentlemen for your answers. --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 21:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

It's unlikely that Tiberius was a vegetarian. This source discusses how Seneca, a contemporary of Tiberius, was a vegetarian, but had to stop out of worries of falling out with the emporer. It says that during Tiberius's persecution of Christians, one of the criteria the emporer began to use to "prove" someone was a Christian was vegetarianism. So it doesn't seem likely Tiberius was one himself. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

You really want to get "Diet on Capri" by Ronald Syme. I think the point he makes is that Tiberius was so paranoid about poisoning he became practically self-sufficient on Capri and therefore pretty much vegetarian. As Pliny the Elder, relates he really liked Cucumber#Roman Empire. meltBanana 03:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

May 9

Al-Qaeda / bin Laden Manifesto

I've heard repeated mention of an Al-Qaeda / bin Laden Manifesto which lists as its third charge against the West the independence of East Timor. What is this manifesto and where can it be read? 58.147.52.162 (talk) 00:31, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, when I hear "Bin Laden manifesto" my first thought is his 1998 "War Against Jews and Crusaders" fatwa. However, that document doesn't say anything about East Timor. This message does, but not as the third in a list of charges against the West. Are either one of those what you are looking for? --Cerebellum (talk) 02:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. The first time I heard of it was in Christopher Hitchens' answer to a question at the Freedom from Religion Foundation here at 0:30 (full presentation starts [here]):

What are some of the items in the Bin Laden / Al-Qaeda manifesto? Well, oddly enough -- and this was to my surprise; I thought it would be lower down -- item three in the charge against the West is that it reversed course on East Timor, tried to undo the genocide, brought East Timor to a referendum on independence, sent Sérgio Vieira de Mello, one of the greatest UN civil servants, to East Timor to supervise the transition to independence and the election and made East Timor the newest member of the UN. Bin Laden says, "for this we will never forgive the Christian Crusaders and their imperialist friends. They took away a republic from a Muslim land."

I was hoping to read the full source he was paraphrasing. 58.147.52.162 (talk) 14:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Communist founders in London

Did Stalin really visit London, as this article suggests? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8658408.stm Could Marx and Lenin both speak english, as their using of the British Museum would imply? Engels ran a factory in Manchester I think and probably visited London - is there any founder of communism who had not lived in or at least visited London? What was the attraction of London to them? Thanks 92.24.17.70 (talk) 00:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Stalin, along with Lenin, Trotsky, Gorky and others, visited London in 1907 (not 1905) for the 5th Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party. I think this was Stalin's only trip to Britain although Lenin traveled there a number of times. Stalin first met Lenin in Tampere in December 1905.--Cam (talk) 03:05, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

As for other "founders of Communism", I don't think Mao Zedong probably ever visited London. Ho Chi Minh, however, did spend some time working in a London pub, which is a pretty amusing coincidence. I don't see any obvious evidence of Fidel Castro having visited London but I wouldn't rule it out (he did travel a bit before the Cuban Revolution). --Mr.98 (talk) 15:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

William Robson translation of The Three Musketeers

William Robson's translation is not mentioned in the Editions section of The Three Musketeers. Though I don't think it was available since the 60s/70s, Borders Bookstores now sells their self-published edition using Robson's translation, which is both ornate and flowery and beautiful to read. But the Wikipedia article brings up a good point: omissions of language to comply with standards of the time. I've never been able to figure out when Robson's translation was written and if, in fact, it is abridged in parts. I may be forced to read Richard Pevear's translation, but I'm worried about its use of modern phrases. Does anyone here have any information on Robson's translation? – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 01:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

According to this, William Robson's translation was published in 1853. According to this guy, Robson's translation is not "absurdly bowdlerized." Hope that helps. --Cerebellum (talk) 02:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely wonderful. Translation based on Dumas's own revised version, and spot-checked against Pevear, though I may have to double-check a few passages of my own. It never occurred to me that Google Books could be used in such a fashion. You've therefore answered my question and taught me something new. Thank you so much! – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 03:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Glad I could help. : ) --Cerebellum (talk) 13:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Service of process

Who is the agent for service of process for Residence Inn by Marriot and Priceline? Or how can I find such information? If I filed a small claims case in court but listed Priceline's CEO as the agent to be served, what will likely happen? Also how can I tell if I got the agent for process service correct for Marriot? Count Westfall (talk) 02:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Try http://finance.yahoo.com and look up their most recent filing with the SEC -- the address you want should be on the first page of that.

Marriott International, Inc.
10400 Fernwood Road
Bethesda, MD 20817

800/331-3131 Residence Inn - call and ask if they got your process service; tell them you need to speak with their legal department

Priceline.com Incorporated
800 Connecticut Ave
Norwalk, CT 06854 

It's okay if you served the CEO. In California small claims court, you're supposed to serve the CEO and not the General Counsel if I remember correctly. 71.198.176.22 (talk) 06:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Homelessness resources in London

My 2nd favorite blogger in London, Penny Red, has just announced her impending homelessness. She's an early-20s smoker on this year's Orwell Prize short list. What resources are available for homeless women in London?

http://www.homelesslondon.org/details.asp?id=LP381

Are there any Londoners here with social networks capable of taking on a brilliant starving artist type as a couch surfer? 208.54.5.60 (talk) 03:43, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Is there any reason why she cannot rent a flat please? Even if she has no income, then she should get Housing Benefit (and other benefit money also) which should be enough to rent a cheap and/or small flat or at least a room. Many landlords are acustomed to having tenants on benefits. See http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/On_a_low_income/DG_10018926 You can find out how much rent she would get paid here https://lha-direct.voa.gov.uk/Secure/Default.aspx For central London she should get paid at least £141 a week for the rent alone, plus other money to live off also. Some tenants of mine who live entirely off benefits just rung me up from Spain, where they are on holiday! 78.146.175.181 (talk) 11:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Bernard Werber - 『Paradis sur Mesure』

Could anybody please tell me the names of the 17 chapters of Bernard Werber's novel 『Paradis sur Mesure』? both in French and in English? i've tried looking everywhere but couldn't find anything. thanks!!Johnnyboi7 (talk) 07:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The best I could do was this page from the Korean wikipedia, which has a list of the chapter titles in Korean. Google Translate gives this list of English titles, which unfortunately is pretty garbled. I'm not even going to attempt a French version.

"environmental destruction offender hanged," (a likely future) "Truth in the fingers" (short story interlude) "respecting the issue" (likely the past) "Flowers Sex" (a likely future) "lost civilization" (a likely future) "Murder in the Mist" (likely the past) "Tomorrow the girls" (a likely future) "Movie Masters" (a likely future) "Alignment of Paradise" (a likely future) "Sparrow ruin others" (likely the memories) "where jokes are born" (a likely future) "the teeth of the earth" (likely the past) "You're going to like" (a likely future) "brand war" (a likely future) "Scarecrow strategy" (likely the past) "Anti - Proverbs" (short story interlude) "Love in Atlantis" (likely the past)

Cheers, --Cerebellum (talk) 14:11, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Sousa marches during religious ceremonies

I'm curious as to why John Philip Sousa military marches are played by bands during Catholic religious processions here in Italy? Stars and Stripes Forever is a particular favourite. When I queried my parish priest, he just looked blank. Jesus is supposedly a man of peace, yet the marches glorify warfare and make one eager to rush off to the nearest US Marines recruiting office than meditate upon God.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Marches glorify warfare ╟─TreasuryTag►Africa, Asia and the UN─╢ 09:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, that my personal opinion, but its lyrics are martial (see article: Stars and Stripes Forever), and while patriotic also militant. Anyway, the marches are certainly not what anybody could possibly describe as dirges or hymns.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:32, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

It's possible that someone just liked the tune and decided to claim it for another use. Consider What Child is This?, which is set to the tune of Greensleeves. I want to say that using any kind of march for that purpose is strange, but it occurs to me that some of the hymns Martin Luther wrote have a martial tone, as does Onward, Christian Soldiers. Paul (Stansifer) 12:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Then there's the Battle Hymn of the Republic which is surely an oxymoron if there ever was!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

"Know Thyself" by Dr John Arbuthnot

Resolved

I have been asked by a freemason if I know about this poem which he says is supposed to be written by Dr. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735). It rings a bell but not in connection with the polymath. Can anybody help please? Kittybrewster ☎ 09:41, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Got it. Alexander Pope. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:51, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Twelve Caesars

Petrarch researched and wrote "bios" on Julius Caesar and other famous ancient Romans in his Illustrious Men. Is it quite likely he would have reseached and studied all of The Twelve Caesars? Would he have likely obtained the information on the 12 Caesars from Livy or Suetonius or both or other sources?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 10:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Forbidden artifacts

I was reading the article regarding the Imperial Regalia of Japan, which is about three ancient mythical objects (a sword, a mirror and a jewel) that can be seen, more or less, only by the Emperor of Japan and few other very selected people. Are there any other example of important historical artifacts known to exist, officially stated as real, but forbidden to almost every person in the world (no allowed scientific/archaelogical studies, no photos, no pictures...)?--151.51.60.165 (talk) 11:23, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The one that springs instantly to my mind is the Ark of the Covenant which is claimed to be held in Ethiopia. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The Museum of Anthropology at UBC holds at least one artefact which can only be viewed by the holy men of the First Nations tribe which created it - even in the reference collection, its presence is signified by an explanatory note, rather than the artefact itself, which is in a sealed box in the store. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

John Wilkes Booth's fiancée

Does anyone have an exact birthdate and death date for Lucy Lambert Hale, the secret fiancée of John Wilkes Booth? Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:29, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

shhh! it's supposed to be a secret. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.124.197 (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Notable Virginia Politicians

Does anyone know of any notable Virginia politicians from before the civil war? The politicians must of have been born in Virginia ex. James Madison. 72.94.161.188 (talk) 17:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Why must Virginian politicians be born in Virginia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.124.197 (talk) 17:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Patrick Henry, Nathaniel Bacon, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe, John Tyler, John Johns Trigg, etc. Oh, there are so many. Why not look up the category: Politicians from Virginia? I'm sure there's a list somewhere!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:12, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Here it is:List of people from Virginia--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! That should be enough!72.94.161.188 (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)