Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Record charts

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Brazilian charts

When does a new month's Brazilian chart debut? I have only been peripherally following this issue, but my understanding was that, while there was no chart archive, a current chart could be found online. Yet upon a claim at I Want To Know What Love Is that Mariah Carey's version had charted at #1 there for five months, which they parenthetically claimed was 19 weeks, I scratched my head (as November through February is actually more like 13 weeks) and checked Wiki's Brasil Hot 100 Airplay article. There I found no March data, despite its being March 11. I then visited the link at Billboard Brasil, http://billboard.br.com/rankings#brasil-hot-100-airplay (because there is no reference for the material at Brasil Hot 100 Airplay), and found no current data for Brazil's charts, only a link to the U.S. charts for the week ending March 13.

Is it common for there to be a lag time between when the prior chart is removed from the site and the next one posted? (Why on earth would that be so? The only reason I can think of is that they are indicating that the chart is not meant to represent a whole month, but merely a representative week of that month?) Perhaps I'm checking during the couple of minutes the page is being reconfigured for the new month? Have the Brazilian charts been discontinued after a mere five? I'd be interested to know if anybody has any insight on this.

On a related issue, there is List of Hot 100 number-one singles of 2009 (Brazil) and a List of Hot 100 number-one singles of 2010 (Brazil). The inaugural chart was in October 2009 and it is a monthly chart, meaning that there are only 3 charts that year and only 12 charts in any year. The first #1 ran for two charts and the second #1 for three (albeit spanning two years), so the first list consists of two singles.

Additionally, there is a List of number-one pop hits of 2009 (Brazil) which happens to be the same as List of Hot 100 number-one singles of 2009 (Brazil) (ditto for 2010). And then of course there is the domestic chart, List of number-one popular hits of 2009 (Brazil), which is a lone Brazilian artist for 2009 and another for 2010 to date. I note that List of French number-one hits of 2009 — which is a weekly chart — is split into physical singles and digital singles. The French list then adds the same data for albums as well as a top 10 of the year in both sales categories for both singles and albums.

Considering that there are only four singles represented across these six Brazilian articles covering five months' worth of three charts, doesn't it make sense to combine the scant data in a similar manner that we combine the more frequently updated data at the French article? Thanks, Abrazame (talk) 07:46, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

From December to now makes 17 weeks. But for example say Beyonce was #1 for november, it was actually #1 for October because it updates at the beginning of the month. So for all intents and purposes the song has been #1 for around 20 weeks if you look at it like that. It's not Billboard Brazil that sourced that it was something else, I can't remember what but the source used compiles the charts for Billboard Brasil. Billboard Brasil's charts seems to be down but their compilers are still up and running (you can find it somewhere). I hope I explained that well. As for combining that data, I think Billboard Brasil should be completely combined and the #1's just have their own date. I don't think it should be noted that Mariah Carey's song is the longest running song on the chart because it's still a new chart. It's actually the longest running airplay song is Brazil since forever, because they've always had an airplay chart, just not run by Billboard before. Jayy008 (talk) 14:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Although I thank you for the acknowledgement of the "longest running" and combining points, respectfully, your logic is in error regarding a number of points.

Firstly, look at the French chart I linked above. There are several instances of a title falling from number one for a week or even two and then regaining the top spot. Just because a chart is only updated every month, rather than every week, does not change the possibility of such a dynamic. So we have no proof that a single that averages out to #1 over the course of a month was actually the #1 single for each week of that month, and the data given does not allow us to draw the conclusion that it was. We could extrapolate that a song that was the #1 song for twelve months was the #1 song for a year, because the metric is each month and twelve months from now is a year from now, it's simple logic. But just as you surely know that we do not presume the #1 song of a specific year (as is measured in several articles here at Wikipedia) was not actually the #1 song each month of that year, neither can we presume the #1 song of the month was actually the #1 song of each week of that month. We apparently can't know that it wasn't, but neither can we presume that it was; we must present the same metric officially presented by the chartist, in this case a monthly figure.

Secondly, the fact that any published chart is obviously representing figures from prior to the time it "went to press" doesn't change the fact that a song making two or three charts is still a song charting for only two or three chart periods, in this case months (but again the same is true for weeks). So if Beyonce was #1 for the October and November charts, it was actually #1 in September and October, still just two months. And if Mariah Carey was #1 for the December, January and February charts, that's representing the three months of November, December and January. So then a March chart would reflect February, a fourth month, not a fifth one. When you say "from December to now makes 17 weeks," it seems you are forgetting there is no source cited for the claim that she is the #1 single now, and as you note that whatever the #1 single on a March chart would be is actually not representing now but some point before the end of February (if, as you state, it is updated at the beginning of each month), and it takes until April to determine what is number one now, again, this is a conflation of metrics. After all, if as you suggest there is an official rundown of weekly charts, then why do our Brazilian lists fail to acknowledge that, in favor of a monthly metric?

Thirdly, if the Billboard Brazil chartings are being sourced to something other than Billboard Brazil, that should be evident by the reference cited on each page a Billboard Brazil chart figure is being presented. While it is extremely hard to track down chart references for pre-internet-era recordings, it shouldn't be this vague to what we are sourcing a contemporary charting in 2010. Abrazame (talk) 01:27, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

for a start, this place is to discuss charts not songs, it isn't even listed on the article on wikipedia that it reached #1 for 20 weeks...So why are you bringing it up? But it is listed as #1 with a reliable source. What you say about going 2-1-1-2 in a month is impossible because it's a monthly chart, only. So I Want to Know What Love Is has been number one November, December, January, February, March. This is radio provider in Brazil What's listed in the Article now is that it reached #1 and it's reliably sourced. Nothing else. Jayy008 (talk) 14:18, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

A few points to address in this discussion. First, Jayy008 is correct that Crowley compiles the chart, and Crowley has compiled Brazilian airplay charts for a long time. However, (and this is a big "however"), they did not publish a national airplay chart, only regional ones. Thus, there is no history before the publication of the first Billboard Brasil to make a valid comparison to.

Second, the Billboard Brasil website is a shambles. No archiving, days where all the charts disappear, links to US charts appearing in inappropriate places. The website cannot be used as a source, only the magazine.

Third, as for articles that reproduce lists of number ones or otherwise reproduce chart data from proprietary sources, I maintain that they should all be deleted as copyright violations. Discussions of folding them or how to format them are moot: if the purpose they serve is to reiterate a chart, they shouldn't exist.—Kww(talk) 14:37, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

All I mean it, in the article for "I Want to Know What Love Is", nobody has mentioned "#1 for 20 weeks etc" so what does it matter? I just can't see the relevance. Jayy008 (talk) 17:53, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

That's because Abrazame removed the claim based on the argument he is presenting here.—Kww(talk) 01:36, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Got it, there's no source for the 20 weeks thing anyway and the provider doesn't archive it, so it shouldn't be used. Jayy008 (talk) 17:19, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Kww, for clearing that up. But my issues remain unresponded to, which is even more troubling a week after I first noted them. Not unlike Legolas' comment in the Argentina thread below about CAPIF, I am unclear on the purpose of mentioning or linking http://www.crowley.com.br/arquivos_comuns/about_crowley.asp in this thread. Is the current national airplay chart posted somewhere at the Crowley site? Is there a searchable database there? If so, can we post a site map on how to get there for English language users? I'm troubled that we're 18 days into the month and a chart that by the explanation above was supposed to have been available two and a half weeks ago is still not cited in the articles I mention above. The Billboard.br link I pasted above from one of our article cites is still blank. This does not seem to be the way a major operation like Billboard handles data they find encyclopedic and worthy, and presenting as our most recent data in the second half of March material from a February chart that, as Jayy008 notes, actually represented airplay in the month of January, raises some red flags to me on how seriously we should take this as a reliable chart.

To Jayy008, you say that the song has been number one in February and March: where have you gotten that information? Again, this is about the chart, not about the song, but of course the purpose of the chart is to make claims about songs, and it perplexes me how you and others are doing that.

I thank you, too, Kww, for your response about the Brazilian albums chart in the thread below. Abrazame (talk) 11:29, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

An anon added March figures to the Brazil singles charts on March 21. The Billboard.br page is still empty, more than three weeks after I first noted it. So where are these figures coming from? Why is there no source cited whatsoever for a current and very specific promotional data point in the internet era? And what's the deal with Billboard.br? I mean, how many purposes are there for that site other than to note the Brazilian chart positions? Abrazame (talk) 21:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I am starting to have serious doubts about Billboard Brasil myself. Its site is essentially dead. This article, published only two weeks ago in Jornal de Economia describes it as a weekly publication (although our article describes it as monthly), and gives no indication that it is defunct. I've caught some editors forging references, using positions from hot100brasil.com and creating citations to show it as taken from the physical magazine. I'd like to hear from some of our Brazilian editors that can confirm the magazine is still even on the stands.—Kww(talk) 22:08, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Kww. I've noticed that people seemed to have realised that they can apparently source chart positions physically but there is no evidence to suggest the magazine is in circulation. its highly unsual that there is no online version/archive and that the magazine is not mentioned by Brazil's equivalent of IFPI. but i do wonder because www.mariahdailyjournal.com regularly reports on how carey songs are doing in brasil citing the billboard brasil magazine as a source.Lil-unique1 (talk) 22:15, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Kww if you translate the article it actually says the traditional weekly publication has a monthly basis in Brasil. also this article appears to show the magazine as still active as of Jan 2010. [1] Lil-unique1 (talk) 22:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Not too surprising that I make mistakes when reading Portuguese. Not a language I'm very fluent in (I mainly recognize words that I know from Spanish and Papiamento). That cover would seem to correspond to the last chart published before the website went dead.—Kww(talk) 22:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Tis ok... I used Google Translate to help with the translation. Erm yeah cus the website i've given as an example usually posts the cover of the magazine regularly. A quick search on google, reuters and google news reveals very late about the fate of the chart or even if it is active.Lil-unique1 (talk) 22:32, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, my translation software says the Jornal de Economia article reads: "The magazine Billboard Brazil is a weekly publication, where its rankings are based on in such a way digital sales, how much physical and in the amount of times that music was touched in the radios of all country in the week." Though of course I don't take their word for this under the circumstances. Abrazame (talk) 22:36, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

I saw Kww's notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Brazil, and yes, I confirm the magazine is still on the stands. Unfortunately, they cost quite too much for me to keep them at home only to serve as physical references, although I sometimes check them to find out information on singles I might want to work on. Victão Lopes ^{I hear you...} 02:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Good to hear of a sighting. There is something funky going on, though. pt:Anexo:Lista de Canções número um em 2009 (Brasil) and List of Hot 100 number-one singles of 2009 (Brazil) disagree. We have a List of Hot 100 number-one singles of 2010 (Brazil), but there is no pt:Anexo:Lista de Canções número um em 2010 (Brasil).—Kww(talk) 02:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

pt:Anexo:Lista de Canções número um em 2010 (Brasil) may be just a matter of time. As of the diverging information...I tried to check the website, but the lists are not being displayed. Victão Lopes ^{I hear you...} 02:57, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

The dead website is what started this discussion. We are left in the position of having to trust magazine references, and are in the unfortunate position of having some Brazilian editors that are taking advantage of the situation to add false material.—Kww(talk) 03:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's something to worry about. I hope the list comes back soon. Victão Lopes ^{I hear you...} 20:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

So ten days later, now in the second week of the following month, and still nothing at Billboard.br. Any effort currently being made by Brazilian editors? (Are there any Brazilian Wikipedians interested in contemporary music other than Victao? One guy who "sometimes checks" the newsstands is not enough for us to maintain coverage, and if Billboard isn't making it available online, they clearly don't wish there to be widespread notice taken.) Any objection to my opening an AfD on our lists? Abrazame (talk) 07:09, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

And now it's been another week, still nothing at Billboard.br, and still no help from any Brazilian editor. Anybody care? AfD? Abrazame (talk) 06:44, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Forgive me, perhaps I missed something, but why would you want to delete an article because Billboard.br hasn't been updated? Which articles are you specifically targeting, and would merging the info not be a better approach? — Huntster (t @ c) 08:21, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I understand your frustration, but you would have a very hard time at AFD. Denying the notability of the Billboard brand name would be difficult. Since the magazine appears to exist, it will meet W:V. If you want to give me a test case of my belief that all articles that reproduce charts for the sake of reproducing charts should be deleted as copyright violations, I'll support on that ground, but that's only one support. I doubt you would get others.

As for other editors, Decodet is a responsible Brazilian editor that edits music articles—Kww(talk) 15:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

The magazine does exist. If you guys need anything from Brazil, just talk to me. I'm watching this page. Victão Lopes ^{I hear you...} 20:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I have not noticed this discussion before, so I was not able to leave comments before. I'll try to clarify and confirmsome points: The magazine does' exist, as Victor Lopez mentioned, and it's still a monthly release. That reference cited above has a wrong information. The website is not dead either, although they don't post chart anymore. It's still being updated with news and you guys can also see they updated the cover of the month on the site, another proof the magazine's still being published. Like Victor, I do not buy the magazine because it's a little bit expensive but I have two copies of the magazine - the December and January editions. That's the main tool I use in order to create physical references. In case you need support, feel free to contact me. I'll try my best to help everyone.

PS: I'll try to buy the April edition, since one of my fave groups is featured in the cover, so I'll be able to help everyone with this month's chart. Decodet (talk) 00:23, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Is this now a suitable interim solution? it appears to be the official publication by Crawley Broadcast Systems who are responsible for Brazilian charts. I think it would need manual archiving with WEBCITE or something similar though. [2]Lil-unique1 (talk) 00:30, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks for the responses at long last! I was a bit perplexed that with all the discussion thus far that it wasn't clear that what those lists need are at least one Brazilian editor with some English proficiency who is willing sometime in the first week or so of the month to visit their local library or book store and note for us the #1 singles and albums of the month in the two or three genres we have seen fit to cover. (Ideally it would be someone motivated enough to be doing this for their own knowledge and enjoyment, and not dogged responsibility to an unending Wiki list.) There are pages, like List of Hot 100 number-one singles of 2010 (Brazil), that are completely unreferenced. They could use confirmation and updating. (Victão Lopes has helpfully done that for the last three months of the 2009 list, though all seem to be referenced to an October edition.)

To summarize the long and digressive thread, it is Wikipedia practice and there seems to be consensus to combine these numerous Brazilian charts (Domestic and international songs/singles/airplay, and albums) as they do in other notable countries (I noted France), particularly as they are monthly and not weekly charts, to make it more convenient and comprehensive and clear for an interested reader/researcher to discover what is happening on those charts and to present more than twelve (or, given the sluggishness of the charts, however many fewer than twelve) data points each list would ultimately be presenting. The question of which to place first, second, etc., would ideally be done as a reflection of their market share (i.e. the U.S. charts would have the Hot 100 before the Country music, though perhaps the Brazilian market for domestic artists is greater than that for the international fare).

To clarify the obtaining of the data, purchasing it isn't required: If an interested editor's local library does not currently carry the periodical, chances are they have official forms you can fill out to request they subscribe to the magazine or to the paid version of Billboard.br. If they decline or are unable, it is possible they can find out if another local library in the region does carry a subscription, and they can arrange to have that copy circulated to your branch after the first week or so, or you can visit the neighboring town to do the research. (At least that's the way things are handled in U.S. libraries.) Here, some individual newsstands may frown on browsing through a magazine but others do not; bookstores like Barnes & Noble and Borders and music retailers like Virgin carry Billboard and allow browsers to take notes and even have free Wi-Fi to upload directly from there on a laptop or other device, perhaps that's so in Brazil as well? The #1s in the U.S. magazine are all listed on the first inside page, so it doesn't even require paging through the magazine, you can find it in an instant.

A specific question: is there any source whatsoever that publishes the weekly data from this Crawley Broadcast Systems to which people keep referring? If they are a notable, independent, legitimate entity (and, indeed, if they are not), we need an article explaining their mission, their purview, like Nielsen ratings.

I've never nominated an AfD and did not actually wish to in this case — my actual wish is that every nation has its own music chart and that there is an accurate, updated and referenced representation of such here at Wikipedia. Many thanks to those interested in understanding and following their local music charts and representing them here. Perhaps consolidating the Brazilian charts together on one page and setting a good Wikipedia standard for referencing them (particularly given the lack of web access) will spread the word and get others interested in reading and responsibly updating the lists with the new figures each month. Best, Abrazame (talk) 07:25, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes this had been cited by Universal Music as an Official Source from Crawley Broadcast Systems that would need manually archiving i think.Lil-unique1 (talk) 15:05, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I just wanted to point out that it's been another ten days and not a single effort to cite or combine the lists (I reverted two uncited additions for April).

I would also point out to Decodet that he is partly incorrect when he says "The website is not dead either, although they don't post chart anymore." The site is still designed to present the data on these pages, they simply are blank. While the site as a whole is not a dead link, it is a dead site from the perspective of the very point of Billboard, the presentation of chart data. Billboard has always had news from around the world, so the fact that news continues to be updated at Billboard.br is not particularly illuminating. It's not that I don't take editors at their word that Brazilian Billboard continues to be published, it's that our acknowledgement of something of a monthly nature that apparently nobody is interested in citing sources for or updating on a monthly basis is as perplexing and shoddy as is Billboard's handling and promotion of the Brazilian chart.

I return to the question from the standpoint of Wikipedia editors: why no effort in all this time to cite and update and combine the lists?

I return to the question from the standpoint of Billboard: If Billboard stands behind the accuracy and newsworthiness of the Brazilian charts in the international forum, why have they failed to update their site to present the last few months' #1 chartings as they do on the U.S. site? If there is some reason to treat the presentation of Brazilian #1s differently than the presentation of U.S. #1s, then A.) What is that difference, and B.) Why would they not redesign the site to remove the pages/links that purport to present them? Abrazame (talk) 23:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment: I bought the April issue of Billboard Brasil, then I can help anyone who wants to verify peak positions. Decodet (talk) 02:42, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Billboard component charts

I thought I knew most of the Billboard component charts, but after seeing some recent edits and looking at Component charts I am confused. I have seen Hot Adult Top 40 Tracks, Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks, Top 40 Mainstream and Hot Country Songs removed claiming they are component charts. Reading the articles, nothing is said about them being component charts, but reading Component charts says they are component charts of Hot 100 Airplay. This edit in November, [3], added the following sentence to the article without a source, "In turn, the Hot 100 Airplay is comprised on the various airplay-only charts, including but not limited to Top 40 Mainstream, Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks, Hot Adult Top 40 Tracks, Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks, Alternative Songs, and the Rhythmic Airplay Chart." I can find nothing on Billboard or around the internet to support this sentence, which seems ironic given the editor the month before had placed a unreferenced template in the article.

I have also seen Pop 100, Hot Dance Airplay and Hot Dance Club Songs removed as being component charts, but I see no evidence and in the case of the dance charts, Component charts says they are not. I would appreciate other people's opinions on this matter. Aspects (talk) 01:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

you raise a very good point here. I'm glat its being discussed. Its time we produced a definitive list of charts which are allowed and those which are not. Those which are deemed components and those which are not. Anything chart listed as Mainstream is a component e.g. mainstream top 40 is a component of the hot 100, hot mainstream rock tracks is a component of the rock tracks chart. We need to look into the matter. On a personal level i feel that genre charts should be allowed specific to each song. Lil-unique1 (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, all the wiki articles on all the US Billboard charts need improvement for consistency. They need to properly show any and all relationships that they have to each other.—Iknow23 (talk) 04:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I suggest we create a summary page for Billboard Charts which shows which charts are definately allowed and then shows which charts are components of the ones that are allowed. Then we can have notes explaining when component charts can be used. Lil-unique1 (talk) 05:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok i've done a brief stint of research based on Billboard and wikipedia and this what i've found:

• Billboard Hot 100 - no issues
  • Hot 100 Airplay - often mistaken to be different from Radio Songs the two charts are exactly the same. it is one of three components of the hot 100.
    • Rhythmic Airplay Chart - component of hot 100 airplay
  • Hot 100 Single Sales - physical chart which is component of the Hot 100, if a song has not charted on the Hot 100 then this chart is preferred over the airplay chart.
  • Hot Digital Songs - digital chart, main component of the Hot 100, if a song has not charted on the Hot 100 then this chart is preferred over the airplay chart.
• Bubbling Under Hot 100 - appears to have been was deactivated and replaced by the Heatseakers Songs and Heatseakers Albums charts.
• Pop Songs - often labelled on wikipedia as a component chart but Billboard explicitly calls it a genre chart. Additionally it is being labelled Mainstream Top 40 but again there is no evidence to support this. I'm not sure the rational used for calling this a component chart
• Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks - often mislabelled, Billboard referrs to the chart as Adult Contemporary Songs so it should be renamed to this. no evidence of being a component as it is specifically taking into account sales of songs + airplay on light-pop radio.
  • Adult Pop Songs - although an official billboard chart its methidology is dubious. There is little information know about how a song qualifies on this chart. I think is its a component of the Hot Adult Contemporary Chart and should be banned from use if not for being a component then for having dubious methidology.
• Hot Dance Club Songs - though only an airplay chart is NOT a component of anything. however it is incorrectly named on wikipedia. it should be labelled Dance/Club Play Songs because the play part indicates that it only takes into account disc jockey airplay. it is nevertheless a genre chart.
• Hot R&B/Hip Hop Songs - again for some reason its labelled "Hot" even though this is not mentioned on Billboard. It is not a component chart of anything and takes into account both airplay and sales.
• Rap Songs - genre chart mainly using airplay but still not a component of anything.
• Alternative Songs, Hot Country Songs, Hot Jazz Songs, Hot Gospel Songs, Tropical Songs, Christian Songs, European Hot 100 - all are fine for use on wikipedia. All are genre bar Euro Hot 100 which is a geo chart.
• Latin Songs - fine for use.
  • Latin Pop Songs - appears to be a component of the latin songs chart as latin pop is sub-genre of latin songs.

hope that helps people.Lil-unique1 (talk) 18:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Could we make it simpler somehow? Like for example if the song charts on the Hot 100 these charts are allowed (follow with charts). If it doesn't then there are no restrictions? Jayy008 (talk) 22:22, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I greatly appreciate the time that Lil-unique1 put into the above. I find it verrrry interesting that wiki has several of the charts improperly named. This certainly helps lead to the overwhelming confusion. Certainly no offense, but unfortunately some is unclear and needs verification as in 'seems' or 'appears to be' is not definitive. Probably should RE-SOURCE everything (including rechecking any refs in the Billboard chart articles) as "This article does not cite any references or sources." "This article may contain original research." is on the Billboard Hot 100 Airplay article for example. We can hardly cite these for our conclusions. I believe that Lil-unique1 did the best they could under the current situation. I would like to suggest again that ALL the wiki US Billboard articles be revised/corrected/verifiably rewritten as necessary if we are trying to follow a consensus regarding 'component' charts and 'genre' charts as it IS UNCLEAR what many of them really are. Also I would like to see the 'new' names in the article titles as well; such as, Hot 100 Airplay (Radio songs).
I admit to some confusion over the 'preferred' status given to some of the component charts. If a song does not appear in the Hot 100, but does appear in ALL of the components (Hot 100 Airplay, Hot 100 Single Sales, and Hot Digital Songs) I thought that they ALL are eligible to appear with the only one NOT allowed being Rhythmic Airplay Chart as its 'level up' chart of Hot 100 Airplay is seen. But if it does not appear on Hot 100 Airplay, then the Rhythmic Airplay Chart is allowed along with the Hot 100 Single Sales and Hot Digital Songs (still using the example of NOT charting on the Hot 100). (my understanding)—Iknow23 (talk) 02:23, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Right well i think that's our answer then. I've used words like 'appears' or 'seems' where the wikipedia article for that chart is unsourced. our main problem here is going to be that Billboard does not provide any information on how the chart is gathered (unless i've missed it). So we have very little idea about how each of the wikipedia articles for the charts was written. my major concern is that without any sources to verify how a chart is formed we end up not being able to modift the status of the chart. I support IKnow23's motion to rename the charts but i would go further. e.g. I would like to see Hot 100 Airplay become 'U.S. Radio Songs (Hot 100 Airplay)' etc. Lil-unique1 (talk) 15:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

See below for an example of what could be implemented. We can modify this as we decide fit e.g. if we decide that a chart is incorrectly named or if some charted are premoted/demoted to component charts. Lil-unique1 (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Condition	Applicable U.S. Charts
If a song has charted on the Billboard Hot 100 you may add any of the charts to the right →	Adult Contemporary Songs Alternative Songs Christian Songs U.S. Country Songs Dance/Club Play Songs European Hot 100 Hot Gospel Songs Tropical Songs Latin Songs Pop Songs (Mainstream Top 40) U.S. Rap Songs R&B/Hip-Hop Songs U.S. Rock Songs Hot Jazz Songs
If a song has not charted on the Billboard Hot 100 you may add any of the charts to the right →	Hot 100 Airplay (Radio Songs) Hot 100 Physical (Single Sales) Hot 100 Digital (Digital Songs) U.S. Rock Songs Dance/Club Play Songs R&B/Hip-Hop Songs Pop Songs (Mainstream Top 40) Hot Gospel Songs U.S. Rap Songs Alternative Songs U.S. Country Songs European Hot 100 Adult Contemporary Songs Hot Jazz Songs Tropical Songs Christian Songs Latin Songs
If a song has not charted on the Latin Songs Chart you may add any of the charts to the right →	As well as charts in line with the conditions above (depending on if the songs charts on the Hot 100 or not) you can add the Latin Pop Songs chart.
If a song has not charted on the Adult Contemporary Chart you may add any of the charts to the right →	As well as charts in line with the conditions above (depending on if the songs charts on the Hot 100 or not) you can add the Adult Pop Songs chart.
If a song has not charted on the R&B/Hip-Hop Chart you may add any of the charts to the right →	As well as charts in line with the conditions above (depending on if the songs charts on the Hot 100 or not) you can add the Rhythmic Airplay Chart 'and R&B/Hip-Hop Airplay Chart'.

Perfect! Although, I personally think the right column should be bulletpointed and listed rather than prose, but that might just be me. Jayy008 (talk) 15:36, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

modified and done. Now we just need to work on improving the articles and also perhaps renaming some of the charts :P Lil-unique1 (talk) 15:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

That's perfect, I support Jayy008 (talk) 16:33, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Idea: Would it perhaps be even more perfect if the upper section (If a song has charted on the Billboard Hot 100) listed all the applicable charts (as it does above) and the lower section (If a song has not charted on the Billboard Hot 100) started off with "All (or any?) of the above charts, plus:"? It'd make the lower listing shorter and the info maybe easier to use.

I can't tell though, because I think my preference would have been the tree-like presentation hinted at by Lil-unique1's analysis. With this (clean-looking!) table approach, it seems that the relationships aren't as readily apparent.

Consider (if I may display my mental sluggishness) the situation where a song has not charted on the Hot 100. May I use the Rhythmic Airplay Chart? From the upper portion of the table it appears so, because it's listed in the has not lower section up there. But what if I'm using the placement on Hot 100 Airplay, also in the lower has not section? The lower portion of the table says no, because it (Rhythmic Airplay Chart) is a component of Hot 100 Airplay, but I have to look for it at the bottom after I've already seen a kind of "OK!" at the top. I think some editors will miss that.

Maybe you see what I'm getting at. A tree (if we could devise a nice one) would let me see everything immediately. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 17:08, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I think a differentiation should be made between (for back of better terms) component charts and genre charts. Many genre charts are in fact components but I think carry more weight and importance, for example Rock Tracks, R&B tracks, Rap Songs, Country songs. When we start splintering down to very specific subsets of audiences then I think the brakes need to be put on: Rhythmic Top 40, Adult R&B, Dance Singles Sales, etc. The only one I can think of that is not a direct component is Dance Club Play, as that realm is not connected to any other charts and has no bearing on them. - eo (talk) 17:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I did toy with the 'all of the above' idea but it didn't really fit in with what i was trying to achieve. I do understand what your saying. Perhaps the lower section should be seperated from the upper section? Lil-unique1 (talk) 17:12, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

AHA - I knew I had started a page on this topic at some point in the past: Wikipedia talk:Record charts/U.S. Billboard chart inclusion. Perhaps we can clear that page off and start from scratch? It would keep this conversation in a centralized location. - eo (talk) 17:18, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Yup that sounds wise. this is an open discussion at the moment and is active on the talk page maybe its better to discuss it all here considering that a consensus appears to be developing. Also what do you think about me placing a message template on every billboard chart page on wikipedia (*sighs*) notifying editors that billboard charts are under review? Lil-unique1 (talk) 17:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think separation is the cure, although I felt more comfortable with the table inverted (Hot 100 at the bottom); what's bugging me might be the forcing of items into two different namings.

Look at the upper portion of the (current) example. The upper-most heading talks about songs not appearing on "the main chart". Then we have a table where, sort of, the left hand column should be labeled "Main chart", so as to match it up with the component charts in the (correctly labeled) right column.

But then there's that darned Hot 100 Airplay chart in the 2nd row; it's not a main chart because we just showed it as a component in the 1st row. However, it's got its own component chart, so to make sense with the heading it has to be a main chart.

It also seems that the left column is always the condition column, and the condition is always — with one exception — "If a song has not charted on this chart you may add any of the charts to the right". Right? And the exception is, of course, where the song made it to the Hot 100, but in that case, we want to revoke the permission our table gives. So if the left column is given the (admittedly unwieldy heading, "If a song has not charted on this chart you may add any of the charts to the right (but see exception for songs on Hot 100)", we could then make our last row say, "If a song has charted on the Billboard Hot 100 do not use any of the charts to the right."

Hmmm, even I don't like this. Forget that last bit; take a look at this approach: (— JohnFromPinckney (talk) 19:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC))

Flow-chart approach

Top-down decision table to determine what U.S. Billboard song charts may be used
You may use any of the following 14 Billboard charts at any time
Pop Songs Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks Hot Dance Club Songs Hot R&B/Hip Hop Songs Rap Songs Alternative Songs Hot Country Songs Hot Jazz Songs, Hot Gospel Songs Tropical Songs, Christian Songs European Hot 100 Latin Songs Rock Songs
Additionally, you may be able to use other Billboard charts. To determine the appropriate charts, start with Step 1 and follow the instructions in "Next step" downwards.
Step	Test	Result	Next step
1.	Did the song chart on Billboard Hot 100?	Yes: OK to add Hot 100 chart (but no charts listed below).	STOP
		No: Possibly OK to add others.	Continue with Step 2.
2.	Did the song chart on Latin Songs?	Yes: OK to add Latin Songs chart.	Continue with Step 3.
		No: OK to add Latin Pop Songs
3.	Did the song chart on Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks?	Yes: OK to add Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks chart.	Continue with Step 4.
		No: OK to add Adult Pop Songs
4.	OK to add any of Hot 100 Airplay, Hot 100 Singles Sales, Hot Digital Songs, and Rhythmic Airplay Chart.		STOP

It's a little too computer-sciencey, probably, but I find it easier to read. (Of course, I'm a little too computer-sciencey.) You'll notice I had a problem with the Rhythmic Airplay Chart: From the current table prototype it looks like it's a component of Hot R&B/Hip Songs (as well as of Hot 100 Airplay), but in the tree analysis above, that doesn't seem to be the case. Which is right? I dunno, so it's certainly wrong here.

It'd need general checking for correctness (I may well have bungled some copy-and-paste) and the chart/article naming still needs addressing. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 19:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok the main problem i have with the flow chart is that it assumes that if something charted on the 'Hot 100 airplay' it automatically charted on the 'Hot 100' which we know is not the case. I do understand your concern though and i did modify the table to try and correct it. I think the answer to the problem is a lot more simple. I've removed 'Rythmic Airplay Chart' from the lower half and then its sorted. please take another look at the table now.Lil-unique1 (talk) 20:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Huh, wha? It doesn't assume that at all. The only time a user is supposed to consider Hot 100 Airplay is when it didn't chart on Hot 100. There's no assumption in either direction. Since you thought otherwise from looking at the table I have to conclude that it's not as helpful as I had hoped. I don't see how you got confused into concluding that but if you came to that conclusion, regular users will be even more lost.

For my part, I also don't see what removing 'Rythmic Airplay Chart' from the lower half solves. What's confusing is the upper half, where the use of Rythmic Airplay Chart hinges on the song's failure to chart on both Hot 100 Airplay and Hot R&B/Hip Hop Songs. That's in conflict with your analysis higher up. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 21:12, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I missed some of your edits somehow. The time change is messing up my tracking of things, I think (or maybe I need a new brain). Here's mine again, with merged cells for better visibility (I hope). Your version does more to explain the component concept, while the flow chart doesn't even mention the reasoning behind the steps. That makes yours superior, I'd say. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 21:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Chart names/pages

I've been through and checked a sample of around 10 of the different Billboard chart pages and i'm finding myself thinking the methidology is not sourced. Here's a crazy idea but how about merging everything into one Billboard chart page. For example we could have just four pages in totals named as follows:

• Billboard Hot 100
• Billboard 200 (Albums)
• Billboard Genre Charts
• Billboard Component Charts

Each page can have sections for specific charts. Good idea/bad idea? Lil-unique1 (talk) 17:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I like your idea Lil-Unique, and I think Eo's idea of clearing the page he created and doing the discussion there is wise. Jayy008 (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I've informed Kww of this discussion because the moving of billboard charts will effect the chart macro. I'm going to start working on each of the charts.Lil-unique1 (talk) 18:42, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

As long as you leave the existing chart article as a redirect to appropriate section in the new one (a good idea in any event), the macros won't be impacted.—Kww(talk) 19:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

are you ok with changes being proposed? do you think we're thinking along the same lines.Lil-unique1 (talk) 19:08, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I think the proposed format sounds reasonable. I'd do it in a sandbox first.—Kww(talk) 19:14, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Because this would have taken too much time i've instead proceeded to move some of the billboard chart pages so it now makes more sense. see below for the changes i've made. I've tried to be WP:Bold so please assume WP:Good Faith.Lil-unique1 (talk) 22:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Former Name	New Name
Billboard Hot 100 Airplay	Hot 100 Airplay (Radio Songs)
Hot 100 Single Sales	Hot 100 Physical (Single Sales)
Hot Digital Songs	Hot 100 Digital (Digital Songs)
Hot Country Songs	U.S. Country Songs
Rap Songs	U.S. Rap Songs
Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs	R&B/Hip-Hop Songs
Hot Dance Club Songs	Dance/Club Play Songs
Pop Songs	Pop Songs (Mainstream Top 40)
Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks	Adult Contemporary Songs

Remember, I support the correct naming of the charts. A thought though. Don't the OLD names need to remain active and be Redirected to the new names so that ALL the 'old' names in use in articles won't change to redlinks? Perhaps this is why the new names redirect to the old ones, as in 'U.S. Country Songs' redirects to 'Hot Country Songs'? An editor uinfamiliar with our discussion may have noticed redlinks occuring at the old name, so put on the redirect as their solution ro resolve it. Anyway, I believe that the redirect should go the OTHER WAY, namely the old name should redirect to the new name. —Iknow23 (talk) 03:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of having wiki articles...

• Billboard Hot 100
• Billboard 200 (Albums)
• Billboard Genre Charts
• Billboard Component Charts

Question, the Component Charts article will have sections for Hot 100, Latin Songs, Adult Contemporary, R&B/Hip-Hop... as they all have 'components'?—Iknow23 (talk) 03:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

with regards to this the Components chart page would have sections for the component charts like: Hot 100 Airplay (Radio Songs), Hot 100 Physical (Single Sales) and Hot 100 Digital (Digital Songs) explaining that they're components of the Hot 100. The Hot 100 itself would have its own page. However i attempted this in the sandbox but realised it would be extremely difficult first due to the number of charts and secondly due to the upkeep of the pages. Some have an extensive history whereas others don't. Some users are also coming across as fiercly over-protective of such articles.Lil-unique1 (talk) 01:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the 'condition' and 'flow' charts...I am going to speak on the presentation methods only (not accuracy as that requires greater scrutiny, even IF I would recognize any errors!)
I had similar thought as JohnFromPinckney before I saw what he said, "Idea: Would it perhaps be even more perfect if the upper section (If a song has charted on the Billboard Hot 100) listed all the applicable charts (as it does above) and the lower section (If a song has not charted on the Billboard Hot 100) started off with "All (or any?) of the above charts, plus:"? It'd make the lower listing shorter and the info maybe easier to use."
I would also like to suggest putting the chart names in Alphabetical order after the renaming process in the 'Applicable U.S. Charts' area of the table. If not ENTIRELY alpha, then perhaps by sections of 'Genre charts' and 'Billboard 100 component charts'. [more to come] Iknow23 (talk) 03:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

with regards to the charts i am having some resistance. One user has reverted the U.S. Country Songs back to Hot Country Songs simply stating that is the name of the chart. I tried making the point that it only appears like that for Billboard.biz customers but for the general public it is simply Country Songs. From all of the pages i move i created redirects so the old pages were active. This is going to be a more length process than i thought. Lil-unique1 (talk) 04:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I would argue that Billboard.com is more commonly referenced, so we should use the naming it provides. Alternate names for the charts should be mentioned in the articles like we do for performers in stating their 'performance names' and their 'birth names'.—Iknow23 (talk) 04:11, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... i like your thinking. I would like to move Pop Songs (Mainstream Top 40) to U.S. Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs) because i think it makes more sense and if we're going to go ahead with the move of all Billboard Charts how about having all genre charts as U.S. for example: U.S. R&B/Hip-Hop Songs, U.S. Dance/Club Play Songs etc.? This standardization would make editing articles easier no? Lil-unique1 (talk) 04:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Would it also be better to add the word 'chart' to the new names? I'm from the U.S. and unsure if EVERYWHERE else in the world is familiar with 'Country songs' and might think that U.S. Country Songs is a list of ALL songs from artists from the country of U.S.?? Even if known I still think its better to state that the article is really about a chart and not a list of individual songs for the other charts as well. So it would be U.S. Rap Songs (chart) for example. —Iknow23 (talk) 04:27, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

That could become tedious. Is U.S. Rap Chart not a better solution? or are we missing the boat here? Is it something more obvious like U.S. Chart: Rap Songs?Lil-unique1 (talk) 04:33, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

AGREED. 'U.S.' Standardization leads to greater clarity. I've always wondered why they didn't all have U.S. on them as Billboard does operate and have charts in other countries/regions as well.—Iknow23 (talk) 04:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I've improved the conditions table (matrix) from above all that remains to alphabetically list the charts. But with regards to moving the charts i have no idea how we're going to achieve it. User:TenPoundHammer was quite forceful in stating that country Songs should remain Hot Country Songs end of. =( Lil-unique1 (talk) 04:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

hmmmm...if you look at the example charts on the project page, they all show the word 'chart' except for the U.S. How/why did this occur? So for standardization with the rest of the world the U.S. charts should have the word 'chart' even the U.S. Billboard Hot 100 should be U.S. Billboard Hot 100 Chart.—Iknow23 (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Did you invite User:TenPoundHammer to come here? If they see the full scope of what is being discussed it may make a difference. They are only focused on the name of one chart, I take it, whereas we are attempting much more.—Iknow23 (talk) 04:47, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

So are we then suggest the mass proposal should be U.S. Rap Songs Chart, U.S. Country Songs Chart etc. or U.S. Rap Chart, U.S. Country Chart? I will do so now although i did point out that a discussion was on-going. Lil-unique1 (talk) 04:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I would like to see 'songs' in there to disambiguate from albums charts + Billboard uses the word 'songs', correct?—Iknow23 (talk) 04:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I would like to see this implemented but we've already had another user now revert the Adult Contemporary Songs, stating that its not the proper name. *sighs* im off to bed now. but i think we're gonna need a proper consensus here. Lil-unique1 (talk) 04:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

True. Invite them all here to participate also.—Iknow23 (talk) 05:02, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The names of the chart articles should be what the "official" name of the chart is—if the name of the chart as it appears in the printed magazine is the same as on the .biz site, that should be the name of the article. And adding parenthetical asides like Hot 100 Airplay (Radio Songs) or disambiguation like U.S. Rap Songs (chart) is just plain wrong per the Wikipedia Manual of Style. The name of the article should be the exact name of the chart; if an article about a different subject already exists at one of the titles, then—and only then—disambiguation should be added to the title. Clarification, like "Radio Songs" can be spelled out in the lead paragraph of the article. I am, on the other hand, all for the suggested trimming down of the number of separate articles. Before the final culling of articles occurs, I would like to see a list of articles that are targeted for termination. Note that the correct format of the suggested titles should be Billboard Hot 100, Billboard 200, Billboard genre charts, and Billboard component charts. TheJazzDalek (talk) 09:23, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I also have a slight problem with these renames, they seem kinda cumbersome. I strongly agree with naming them exactly as they appear in Billboard... the problem is that several charts are shown with different titles on .com and .biz and in the print issues. Hot Dance Club Songs is so named on .biz and in the print magazine. However, the article was just moved to Dance/Club Play Songs based on how its shown on .com. I think a lot more thought needs to be put into this before more articles are moved. - eo (talk) 10:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Whilst i agree that the moving of the articles was a little over-ambitious or perhaps a little premature i simply do not agree with the argument that Billboard Charts should be known as their official name. We have lots of editing issues because in some cases charts are referred to by several different names by official sources like the magazine, .com and .biz. The idea is to unify the charts. The thing is it's ok arguing that .biz calls the airplay chart Hot 100 Airplay yet the majority of visitors see the chart on .com as Radio Songs. The problem here is that people are thinking from a technical/editing point of view and not from a general reader's point of view. The fact is that some of these charts have changed names so many times that it is difficult to actually state what the proper name for the chart is. A simplification of chart names would aid both in editing and fact verification. If your not from the US the billboard charts are quite confusing. The other reason for doing this is because there is a lack of consistancy for example even though the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart is named such it is referred to in articles as variations e.g. R&B/Hip-Hop Songs, Hot R&B Songs, US R&B/Hip Hop Songs, US R&B/Hip Hop Chart. Etc. Again i think editors need to see that this is not about beaurocracy of what charts should be called or even that different charts have different names. It more rather that we're trying to make it easier to use and navigate through Billboard charts, to make editing easier and also to make it easier for the general public who use wikipeida. Lil-unique1 (talk) 15:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

That's what redirects are for. Use the .biz/print edition names as the actual article name for now. Note as well that the online AC chart is called "Adult Contemporary" not "Adult Contemporary Songs". Will someone revert the names of those that have not been changed back yet? --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 23:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Not quite sure what you're suggesting here. Could you please explain what you mean a little more cleary please. Also i've been involved in discussions before we're people have used the same comment before "use the billboard.biz names for now". we've said that in the past over and over. Its time it was discussed properly and in a lenghthy thorough way. The problem with just calling it Adult Contemporary is that it is easy to confuse with the listening format and genre. Part of the whole standardsing thing is to unify the US with rest of the world. In the UK its not called 'R&B Songs' or 'Urban Songs' its called the 'R&B Chart' or the 'Urban Chart' why should US be different? And the argument that its not the official name is a pointless one because many charts have undergone many name changes. the idea is to make it easier to add charts to articles and also to create unity so that a chart is known by just one name. On wikipedia its often assumed that most of the traffic is from the United States but its just not true. Its viewed by people from all around the world and it is extremely difficult for non-US readers to understand US charts. Lil-unique1 (talk) 01:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment Names should be as they name is until Billboard change they names. It could create some confusion. Tbhotch^{Talk C.}

See that's the whole point i'm trying to make. Billboard has multiple names for the charts whether you use billboard.com or billboard.biz. there is always going to be confusion because billboard is forever changing the names of the charts. The idea is to standardize what they're called on wikipedia. otherwise its an argument over the name e.g. Hot Rap Songs vs Rap Songs or Hot Club Dance Songs vs Hot Dance/Club Play Lil-unique1 (talk) 02:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Is Billboard.biz a no-free magazine? Tbhotch^{Talk C.} 03:09, 31 March 2010 (UTC) Add more: Or what is the difference between .com and .biz Tbhotch^{Talk C.} 03:14, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Billboard.biz is the commericial billboard website for those who have a subscription to the magazine. On the website it has a page where it lists all the chart it posts however these names are different to the ones found at billboard.com and are rarely seen by the public because you cannot click on them or use .biz to confirm any billboard charts. Effictively its subscription only access for any detailed information. Lil-unique1 (talk) 03:16, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

So names of .com must be used because not all users have a suscription on .biz; .com is a free access website and more users (including me) use it as a reliable source. Tbhotch^{Talk C.} 03:21, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Exactly my point. this is what the general public see (.com) and percieve the names to be whereas this is what Billboard Suscribers see (.biz). My main issue is that .biz cannot be used to source charts but it is used to dictate their names... ? Lil-unique1 (talk) 03:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no rule that .biz cannot be used to source charts. That would be like saying you can't use books to cite because some people don't own them. Either way, the Rock Songs chart is named the same in both, yet you still renamed it to U.S. Rock Songs. Yes, managing between the charts that do have multiple names is confusing, but that's how it is, there's no need to make it more confusing. The print edition has been around much longer than online, so I'd go with that. I do like the suggestion that some of these individual chart articles should just be merged. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 05:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Lil-unique1 said,"...it is extremely difficult for non-US readers to understand US charts." Well guess what? I am FROM the US and 'it is extremely difficult for [me] to understand US charts.' It's like shake my head...Billboard uses Different names for the same chart AT THE SAME TIME, Aughhhhh. Is this insane? How can we expect any 'casual' editor to understand when we don't?—Iknow23 (talk) 08:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I too think the merging of individual articles (e.g. Rap Songs) is a good idea because some of the articles are massive stubs and have been for an extended period of time but im not sure how to do it because each billboard chart has its own page and templates. Some of the charts like R&B/Hip Hop Songs and Dance Club Play have an extensive yet detailed chart history which is unsourced. would it be ok to remove that information? With regards to calling Rap Songs U.S. rap songs it hopefully distinguishes from the rap genre. Ideally i would like all U.S. charts to be laballed as follows e.g. U.S. Chart: Rap Songs, U.S. Chart: Adult Contemporary, U.S. Chart: Hot 100. this would be the ideal solution especially since it uses the billboard.com names. Using .biz is unwise especially when .com is a viable alternative and allows verification. this is not an argue of WP:Recentism its an argument of logic and editing quality. Lil-unique1 (talk) 19:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I think this (U.S. Chart: Rap Songs, U.S. Chart: Adult Contemporary, U.S. Chart: Hot 100.) is an excellent idea, merge all related charts to that links. This won't cause confusion. Tbhotch^{Talk C.} 20:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I think we need a few more agreements to call it a consensus. or do we already have one? We've already resolved the component charts issue above so its just a case of finalising the chart names and instating them on a revamped Billboard central page and lisitng the change at WP:record charts. I've posted a message on every chart page that is being proposed to move and hopefully that will help close the discussion.Lil-unique1 (talk) 21:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree. If you are going to do that it would be for disambiguating purposes only and the article names should be along the lines of Rock Songs (chart) - disambiguate from "rock songs" (since rock song redirects to rock music) - and Hot 100 (U.S.) - disambiguate from other countries "Hot 100". If print edition chart names are used for the others, there is no further disambiguation needed. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 22:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok fair enough. I'm willing to compromise and use names like Rock Songs (Chart) and Hot 100 (Chart). But i won't budge about not using the print edition names because it confuses people. Whilst i accept that the print edition names havent changed the onlines ones have and i want to standardise the charts so that all the online ones sound the same. The point is whatever we decide to do about chart names it should be the same for all billboard charts.Lil-unique1 (talk) 23:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I prefer US Rock Songs (chart), US Hot 100 (chart), etc. Note that I use 'US' and not U.S. This way the sortable table will work properly as United Kingdom uses UK instead of U.K. So we'd get to solve another problem at the same time :)—Iknow23 (talk) 08:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

You're going to confuse people either way because Billboard is using different chart names at the same time. Names of the articles should not be changed just because they created a "fancy" website. Until it's uniform, redirects should suffice and both names mentioned in the article's intro. US (or U.S.) should not be added to any name in which it is not part of the actual name of the chart. On that matter, UK Singles Chart should be renamed The Official UK Singles Chart, and similarly with the albums page, as it appears to be the precise name. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

The difference is that the other UK charts like the Big Top 40 have depreciated and are not allowed to be used on Wikipedia so there is no need to differentiate. Plus the UK Albums chart is not a genre. You're argument that people are going to be confused is a valid one but we're doing this because people are already confused. Either way we have a problem. None US readers (and a portion of US readers) find it difficult to understand how US charts work. The fact that we source them from billboard.com means they are verifiable but makes the situation confusing because the charts are listed differently to billboard.biz which is cited as the official/print edition. its a no-win situation.Lil-unique1 (talk) 17:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok i concede defeat because i often use All Music as a chart reference which uses the billboard.biz names. Therefore i will move back all the charts to their official All Music/Billboard names. it would be contradictory of me not too considering i use allmusic as an alternative source.Lil-unique1 (talk) 17:45, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Rock Songs Chart needs to moved or renamed yet again. The title of the chart is Rock Songs, not Rock Songs Chart. If the article is not going to be named Rock Songs, it should at least be changed to Rock Songs chart or Rock Songs (chart). Personally I would name it Rock Songs (Billboard chart). Piriczki (talk) 22:51, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done i've gone ahead and changed this.Lil-unique1 (talk) 23:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

A full list of chart names (the correct ones from billboard.biz) and the billboard chart sourcing guide can be found at WP:USCHARTS Lil-unique1 (talk)

Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs) and Hot Adult Top 40 Tracks

You probably thought we were done. However, I've looked through all of the discussion above and can't find a reason for what seems like a contradiction to me, namely: Over at Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs) it says "There are forty positions on this chart and it is solely based on radio airplay and is a component chart of the Billboard Hot 100." (Emphasis in bold added by me.) Over at the Component chart article, we say:

The Hot 100 is calculated from three component charts:

• Airplay: Hot 100 Airplay
• Sales: Hot Digital Songs and Hot 100 Singles Sales

In turn, the Hot 100 Airplay is comprised on the various airplay-only charts, including but not limited to Top 40 Mainstream, Hot Adult Contemporary Tracks, Hot Adult Top 40 Tracks, Hot Country Songs, Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks, Alternative Songs, and the Rhythmic Airplay Chart." (Emphasis in bold added by me.)

And that Top 40 Mainstream is really a redirect back to Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs), where I started, so these two articles agree. My confusion is why, in the discussion above leading to the current table at WP:USCHARTS, we permit the addition of Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs) whether the song has charted on the Hot 100 or not. Did we decide this above somewhere, and I just can't find it through my bleary eyes, or is it an error?

Same question about the WP:USCHARTS table's Adult Top 40 (which redirects to Hot Adult Top 40 Tracks). This looks to be a component (of a component) of the Hot 100, but we permit it regardless of Hot 100 charting.

My apologies if I'm simply not seeing something that's obvious and clearly written somewhere. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

It is based on genre. There are some charts like Rhythemic Top 40 which do not pertain to a genre. Billboard.com calls pop songs, adult top 40 etc. genre charts. The thing is if we go by condition that all airplay charts must be a component of Hot 100 Airplay (Radio Songs) then one of the following could be used: Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs), Adult Top 40, Adult Contemporary (chart), Rock Songs (chart), Hot Rap Songs etc. cause all of the those are solely airplay based. I posed the suggestion that there is no evidence to explicitly suggets that Pop Songs has a component of Hot 100 Airplay and no one could find evidence to suggest that it was. One of the main issues here is that much of the billboard articles on wikipedia are unsourced abd the honest answer would be that we can never be 100% sure of what is/isn't component charts thanks to ambiguity. I've used Billboard.com's chart classifications to post my suggestions. This is kind of debate i wanted to have. People are afraid of discussing changes to how we use billboard on wikipedia because they are scared that a discussion we demage the legacy of billboard. but i say what's the use of a legacy that is unsourced? for example everyone automatically calls the hot 100 Billboard Hot 100 yet billboard.biz calls it The Billboard Hot 100 and none of the other single charts have Billboard in their name.??? Lil-unique1 (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

All I understand from this explanation (and I thank you for your efforts) and the mention of "airplay" is that, after all of your research and analysis, you have no idea what charts are components of other charts. Is that a correct conclusion? It's really just sort of a best guess on your part. And parallel to this conclusion is the conclusion that our articles about the individual charts, such as the Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs) one mentioned above, are completely unreliable and need editing by someone who knows what Billboard does, and no such person has happened by.

I gather that Billboard makes no clear information available about what charts depend on what other charts. We're all just guessing, and somehow the word "airplay" is some kind of clue, although it helps me not at all.

I'm sorry that I won't be able to propel the discussion forward; I know nothing about Billboard except that (1) their Website is an abomination and I hate, hate, HATE having to visit it; and (2) they're a big name (apparently the only big name left) besides Cashbox or Variety, and one that would offer great canonical sources if only their Website were more than marginally usable.

Sorry to sound so depressed and defeated but it's just because I'm depressed and defeated. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 02:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Well to clarify Pop Songs was initially listed as a component chart because billboard didn't previously list it is a genre chart but now it does. Furthermore billboard makes clear that some charts are clearly components of others e.g. Rock Songs (chart) is calculated through the airplay of Mainstream Rock Songs + Triple A Songs + Alternative Songs (chart) etc. Then for other charts like Pop Songs it merely says "airplay on mainstream radio" etc. If your query is aren't all airplay charts a component of Hot 100 Airplay (Radio Songs) then yes that is true to an extent. But then charts like Rythemic Top 40 don't link to a specific genre whereas Pop Songs does but essentially both charts measure the airplay on their respective radio formats: Rhythemic radio and mainstream radio. The question is then do we label all such charts as components of the hot 100 airplay? Correct me if i'm wrong but essentially what this discussion has uncovered is a central issue.... is any airplay chart a component of hot 100 airplay? Now that is something you can comment on... (and with regards to having an expert look at the matter my understanding is that a billboard expert has yet to come forward so every so often users raise consensus to modify billboard policy, i'm more than happy to facilitate discussion and make changes if opposing points of view are put accross) Lil-unique1 (talk) 02:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit table

There isn't the link of the BPI in the certifications of the singles in UK and there isn't the link of the RIAJ for the certifications in Japan (from 2003 to date for Gold & Platinum and Million from the launch of the award) http://www.riaj.or.jp/data/others/gold/index.html -- http://www.riaj.or.jp/data/others/million_list/index.html . Furthemore, the CRIA certified also in the RPM era, not only in the SoundScan era (it's divided in the table). SJ (talk) 16:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC+1)

I fogot to signal also the link of the Norway official chart that include an all-time archive. http://lista.vg.no/ Also the link for the Diamond Award in Poland. http://www.zpav.pl/plyty.asp?page=diamentowe&lang=pl SJ (talk) 18:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC+1)

Sources for Geman Charts

am i right in think this link: [4] is a bad source for German charts? Also is the Deutsche Black Charts a valid german chart? Lil-unique1 (talk) 23:37, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Media Control is the Official German Chart. Every weekly chart (sales or/and airplay) compiled by them on Germany would be valid, but on the official website of the Deutsche Black Chart is not written that's compiled by Media Control. SJ (talk) 03:42, 4 April 2010 (UTC+1)

The MTV links are accurate reflections of the Media Control charts, but they also carry private MTV charts. Because of that, I change them to one of the sources in WP:GOODCHARTS when I notice them. It keeps confusion down. Using the MTV mirror of the Media Control chart isn't a good reason to revert an edit, though.

Our article on the Deutsche Black Charts appears to be completely incorrect. I'll look into this one more.—Kww(talk) 03:05, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

The chart description is at http://www.trendcharts.de/de/trendcharts.html. It doesn't look too bad. Its dropout rule is strange (no song can stay on the chart for over 10 weeks), but dropout rules are always strange. I'll do a bit of notability searching next.—Kww(talk) 03:12, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I have to think that since MTV Germany believes Trendchart's charts to be notable, they probably are. I'm open to discussion, though.—Kww(talk) 03:21, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

when i source german positions in discographies i always use http://musicline.de/ just type the artist name where is says "suchbegriff" hope this helps :) Mister sparky (talk) 20:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

So are we calling the mtv source a bad one? a good one? or a use with caution?Lil-unique1 (talk) 15:36, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

i'd say use with caution, if possible use better ones first Mister sparky (talk) 22:40, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

It's not a bad source, and the information can be presumed to be accurate. The reason I replace them is just because people tend to think "if one chart from MTV is good, then all must be good", when in fact many of their charts are really MTV playlists.—Kww(talk) 22:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

UK Chart Archive

The Official Chart Company's website now has complete archives up to position 75 for the main singles and albums charts. Available here. --JD554 (talk) 14:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. Where is Justin Bieber? REGIONAL CHARTS, HERITAGE CHARTS and others seems to be new charts. Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 14:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't know. Perhaps you could use the feedback button as I don't think this archive is very old. --JD554 (talk) 14:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Now it only archives Top 75, it looks like we'll have problems with positions 75-100 if ChartStats sources it's info from there?? Jayy008 (talk) 15:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The OCC only used to archive the actual charts (top 40 positions only) for the past two years. Before this the only place to get top 75 archives to the beginning of the charts by artist was from printed publications or from the dubious sources of chartstats and zobbel. --JD554 (talk) 15:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Looks pretty good in terms of timeframe. http://www.theofficialcharts.com/artist/_/rolling%20stones/ goes back to 1963, which is a lot better than most of these online archives. I'll get UK and UKocc added to {{singlechart}} added today.—Kww(talk) 15:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Going to be a bit more work than that, but I will get the archives added over the next few days. People should note that the main archive only includes the main singles chart, but there now is an official archive for the UK R&B chart among others.—Kww(talk) 15:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for finding this. It looks pretty comprehensive. Maybe we should add it to record charts. e.g.:

• Source 1-75 from the officialcharts.com
• source 76-100 from chartstats?

this would encourage people to use the source more often? Lil-unique1 (talk) 15:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Already done. Now that there is an official archive for the top 75 positions, I'm not sure that any of the other electronic archives should be used at all because of the historic controversies over them meeting WP:RS.—Kww(talk) 15:50, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

(Good stuff) Perhaps we should revise the UK chart guidance then and state that only top 75 positions should be used unless there is a specific credible source such as press release which states a chart position over 75? Lil-unique1 (talk) 18:35, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

OMG! about friggin time!! now if they would only archive positions 75-200 as well *hopes* happy happy happy! :) Mister sparky (talk) 20:14, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Oh my goodness me, the Scottish Singles Chart is real?! anemoneprojectors talk 20:35, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Scottish chart? no offence but i've never really considered that Scotland might have a seperate chart. I assumed that their sales counted towards the UK Singles Chart after all the UK = england + scotland + wales + northern ireland. we should probably make a note about not using scott chart? Lil-unique1 (talk) 20:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The Scottish chart must be a component of the UK chart. But it's there, in the archive, under Regional. anemoneprojectors talk 20:39, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Truly nasty, unpleasant technical glitch. They don't support the standard escaping for spaces in the URL, meaning that a standard URL such as http://www.theofficialcharts.com/artist/_/Cheryl+Cole won't parse. They want a space, which means that a URL like [http://www.theofficialcharts.com/artist/_/Cheryl Cole Cheryl Cole's page on Official charts]<nowiki> formats as link to <nowiki>"http://www.theofficialcharts.com/artist/_/Cheryl", not http://www.theofficialcharts.com/artist/_/Cheryl Cole". Searching for a way that we can work around this, but let's not go crazy including this archive until we can figure out how to do it right.—Kww(talk) 20:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

update:To add links today, use %20 for space, as in http://www.theofficialcharts.com/artist/_/Bonzo%20Dog%20Doo-dah%20Band. There's a bug fix coming, and I'm going to wait to put it into singlechart until things are stable.

I have gone ahead and added the UK R&B chart, because there is a pressing need to get those articles correctly sourced. It uses UKrandb as the chart name, and requires a date, as in:

• {{singlechart|UKrandb|3|artist=Taio Cruz|song=Break Your Heart|date=2009-10-17}}

—Kww(talk) 04:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I have now added the UK Independent Singles Chart (UKindie) and Scotland (Scotland). I agree that Scotland should be treated as a component chart of the UK singles chart.—Kww(talk) 05:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

the scottish charts being on the archive at least now proves they are official. but definitely components. Mister sparky (talk) 22:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Update with Top100

Top100 has returned for both singles and albums Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 14:48, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Belgium

If song hasn't charted on ultratop 40/50 that then is added position of song on belgium tip parade. my suggestion is that if song has charted on tipparade we add, for flandres 50+tipparade position, and for wallonia 40+tipparade position. example: song has charted on #7 on both flandres and wallonia.

Example 1

Chart (2010)	Peak position
Belgium (Ultratop 50 Flanders)	57
Belgium (Ultratop 50 Wallonia)	47

--SveroH (talk) 18:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Example 2

Chart (2010)	Peak position
Belgium (Ultratip Bubbling Under Flanders)	7
Belgium (Ultratip Bubbling Under Wallonia)	7

I disagree... it doesn't exclusively say that the tipparade is bubbling under the ultratop. The Tipparade is simply a chart that songs may chart on before the acscend to the ultratop. i dislike the idea of doing it with US charts and propose the same for this chart too. As an editor from the UK (where we dont have bubbling under charts) i personally find example two much easier to use than example 1 as well as more navigable. Lil-unique1 (talk) 18:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Lil-unique. It was a bad habit people got into with the Bubbling Under charts, and I see no reason to spread the practice to other charts. Ultratip links to a reasonable place, so it should be used as the chart identifier.—Kww(talk) 18:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

ok. i see your point:)--SveroH (talk) 13:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

AGREE with example 2, as it shows the EXACT proper chart name and the position on it.—Iknow23 (talk) 23:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Example 1. By experience, I have been confused and did not know that the Tip charts were bubbling under, and I know other people will also. Example 1 gives the exact charting not where it bubbled under as, or whatever. Candyo32 (talk) 01:24, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Btw, this probably needs to be discussed in another topic, but the Dutch charts have a bubbling under also. And I think on the music articles the Dutch Top 40 and the Single Top 100 are becoming confused, because Hung Medien, the another common source for international charts other than acharts, uses the Single Top 100. However, I think the Dutch Top 40 is the preferred because it is single and airplay, and the Single Top 100 is only physical singles & downloads. Candyo32 (talk) 01:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Example 1. The Belgian chart system works like "bubbling under" --Triancula (talk) 06:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

consensus concerning a song's wiki page

for the past couple of days, I've been having problems concerning the situation involving the Between The Lines wiki page. What I find redundant is the fact that the Alternative Songs is removed from the page because of the idea that the chart itself is a component to another. I think it's a bad thing to do. Look at every rock song's wiki page. They all have the three Billboard rock charts. The reason the Alternative Songs chart got removed from the Between The Lines is because it peaked higher in the Rock Songs chart. I know a few songs that peaked higher in Rock Songs than in Alternative (examples: The Good Life by Three Days Grace, Your Decision by Alice in Chains) and I never once saw the Alternative Songs chart removed from those pages. And that's why I'm requesting for the Alternative Songs chart to be shown again on the Between The Lines song's wiki page so that I don't have to be blocked for a extended period of time.David1287 (talk) 01:04, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I have commented on this at Talk:Between the Lines (Stone Temple Pilots song). Input from other editors here would be appreciated, however, as I know very little about the US charts. Cheers --Jubilee♫clipman 03:16, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

You can't change Wiki rules, now they're set rules, listed HERE on Billboard Charts sourcing guide, I personally don't think Alternative covers just rock, so I don't think it's a component chart of it. But it is, and we can't change that. Component charts are not allowed, I'm affraid to say end of story, you can't change already made consensus. Jayy008 (talk) 01:05, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

No rules, it's a guideline and a draft one at that. Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 01:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Nothing set in stone, Jay. Consensus can, has, and will change. Not sure it needs to in this case, but no rule is permanent, and the "component chart" guidelines are very subject to change, because they are based on editorial preference, not on policy.—Kww(talk) 01:41, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

just to inform you that WP:USCHARTS is moving from a draft to guidelines. Billboard says: "Hot Alternative Songs the most popular alternative/modern rock songs, ranked by airplay detections as measured by Nielsen BDS." The of Rock Songs it says "the popular alternative, mainstream rock and triple A songs, ranked by radio airplay audience impressions across those genres measured by Nielson BDS". That undoubtedly makes Alternative Songs a component of Rock Songs. Lil-unique1 (talk) 12:44, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't consider Alternative Songs a component of Rock Songs. They are two different charts.David1287 (talk) 12:59, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

What I meant was it was only a few days ago this "draft" was brought in, so one user can't change what Billboard calls or defines one of it's charts. As Lil-Unique said it's becoming guidelines anyway. Jayy008 (talk) 13:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

In response to David1287's comments im afraid in this case Billboard clearly states that they are NOT two different charts. Alternative Songs is an airplay chart which is used as one of three charts which define Hot Rock Songs. Therefore if a song has charted on Rock Songs it then Hot Alternative Songs cannot be added to the charts table. I would love it to be otherwise but billboard itself has defined these charts. I admit with some of the other charts there is a degree of ambiguity but in this case it is clear-cut. Adding Hot Alternative Songs if a song has charted on Hot Rock Songs would be a clear breach of WP:record charts and WP:USCHARTS. What users consider correct is one thing but wikipedia is very clear about component charts.Lil-unique1 (talk) 14:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

why it would be a clear breach? I don't consider it when all the rock songs were charting in bothDavid1287 (talk) 14:21, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Are you aware of what component charts are? sorry i'm not being rude i'm just trying to understand how much you do and don't know about billboard charts. Basically WP:record charts says that "It is not recommended that Billboard component charts are used in tables, unless the song fails to enter the main chart, but appears on an airplay or sales chart." Then in accordinance with what Billboard.com says it clearly says that Hot Alternative Songs is an Airplay only chart. Hot Alternative Songs + Hot Mainstream Songs + Hot Trip A Songs = Hot Rock Songs. Therefore by wikipedia and billboard definition HOT ROCK SONGS is the master/main/genre chart whilst the three airplay charts that make it up are component charts of the Hot Rock Songs. Therefore if a song charts on Hot Rock Songs then only Hot Rock Songs can appear in the charts table. Hot Alternative Songs can be mentioned in prose (chart performance paragraph IF the chart performance is significant. This ruling is no different to that about the Hot 100 and the Hot 100 Airplay. If a song charts on Hot 100 then Hot 100 Airplay charts cannot be the added to the article. It is a closed case i'm afraid its very clear cut in this instance. I would personally love to be able to say that yes we can include all charts. Soon we may not be able to include Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs), Adult Top 40 or Adult Contemporary (chart) either for the same reasons. We're not vindicating the Hot Alternative Songs its simply clarifying a wikipedia and billboard policy that for a long time has been inconsistantly implemented. At the end of the day a hot alternative song is a rock song but a specific type.Lil-unique1 (talk) 18:18, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

So, just to clarify, is Hot_Mainstream_Rock_Tracks a component chart of Rock Songs then? If so, it needs to be removed from articles of songs that have charted on Rock Songs as well. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 18:42, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Billboard has itself clarified that. And it is at WP:USCHARTS which althogh i accept is labelled as a proposal will be promoted to guidelines soon.Lil-unique1 (talk) 21:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so then this should be mentioned in the Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks article as well. David1287 (talk · contribs), I'll mention this on the "Between the Lines" talk page, but I'm removing the second component chart from the article in accordance with WP:USCHARTS and corroboration from this discussion.

Dutch Top 40 vs Top 100 and sources

Ok two questions.

1. Which chart should be used? which is preferred?
2. Is this a good source for top 40? [5] i didnt wanna remove it till i'd checked. Lil-unique1 (talk) 23:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

The Megachart 100 is a physical-only chart, while the Dutch Top 40 is an airplay/sales chart. There's also the Mega Top 50, which is an airplay/sales chart. I've never found a good archive for it. Technically, the Megachart 100 is a component of the Mega Top 50, and the Dutch Top 40 is an independent chart. In practice, the normal recommendation is to treat Megachart 100 as a component of the Dutch Top 40: use the Dutch Top 40 if it charted there, and use the Megachart 100 if it only charted on the Megachart 100.

As for futuremusiccharts.nl, it is a mix of private charts and reprints of public charts. We've gone through FMC while discussing Marc Mysterio, an act that only charted in Cyprus, the Ukraine, and the FMC. The conclusion was that the FMC wasn't notable enough to consider a chart. Its reprints of public charts are probably valid enough, but radio538.nl is the licensed publisher and should be used instead.—Kww(talk) 00:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Kww. Very helpful, thats gr8. Lil-unique1 (talk) 00:29, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Another question though: is the Dutch Tipparade different to the Single Top 100? Its use on Gypsy (Shakira song) has baffled me.Lil-unique1 (talk) 01:24, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Can't we just use the one listed on Hung Median, like say "Dutch Singles Chart" to make it simple, and use the chart pos from there? Jayy008 (talk) 13:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Dutch Tipparade is more like Bubbling Under. I don't object to people listing the Megachart 100 from Hung Medien even if it made the Dutch Top 40, but it's redundant to list both. Acharts archives the Dutch Top 40, so some of the listings you see with "Dutch Singles Chart" are really the Dutch Top 40 and some are the Megachart 100: there's no way to tell without checking the sources. That's why I object so strongly to people listing things as "country Singles Chart": it's vague and misleading.—Kww(talk) 14:38, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Which does the macro do? Should we just leave it at that? Jayy008 (talk) 19:05, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I listed this same situation under the Belgium charts discussion but no one replied. Anyway, what i think is up there. Candyo32 (talk) 02:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The macro uses the Megachart 100 from Dutchcharts.com if you specify "Dutch100", and the Dutch Top 40 from radio538.nl if you specify "Dutch40". There is no "Dutch" option.—Kww(talk) 02:56, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Top 40 is the official chart in Netherlands. In this site there is also an archive. http://www.top40.nl/ SJ(talk) 13:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

What I usually do is if Hung Median list a song as 40 as above I'll put "Dutch40" and if it's over 40 I'll say "Dutch100" I guess that was very wrong. Jayy008 (talk) 19:37, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Yep. When I do a macro conversion, my last step is to click all the links and verify the numbers. If you did that, then you will at least have put an accurate number into the article.—Kww(talk) 20:26, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

But the wrong chart lol, Hung Median is always official for all charts, so should we just used Mega Single Top 100 for all articles as it's the one from Hung Median?? Jayy008 (talk) 20:39, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Both charts are valid. This points out one of the reasons that it is important to verify the generated links: if you click the generated link and actually make sure the article matches the position on the chart the generated link takes you to, everything would be fine: you would never wind up matching a Dutch Top 40 position to a Megachart 100 chart.—Kww(talk) 21:07, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Got it! Jayy008 (talk) 21:44, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

IMPORTANT Changes - Airplay, Digital and Billboard

Hi all. It has come to my attention that some editors are still confused about the usuage of component charts in particula: Billboard component charts. To conclude the work being done to WP:USCHARTS i would like to pose the following:

1. All US radio airplay charts are demoted to component charts of the Hot 100 Airplay to reflect the fact that songs charting on Hot 100 Airplay must have charted on at least one of the following (but not limited to, below are the most popular examples):
   • Rhythmic Airplay Chart, Mainstream Top 40 (Pop Songs), Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Airplay, Hot Dance Airplay, Latin Pop Airplay, Latin Rhythm Airplay, Regional Mexican Airplay, Tropical Airplay, Alternative Songs, Mainstream Rock Songs, Triple A Songs.
   • All of the aforementioned charts ONLY use airplay.
   • It would mean the de-motion of Pop Songs and no longer allowing its use on wikipedia.
2. The rules be changed to reflect the introduction of 21 new digital genre charts by Billboard.
   • For example Hot Dance Club Songs will still prevail over Hot Digital Dance/Electro Songs.
3. Dropping the billboard part of the chart except for the Billboard 200 and Billboard Hot 100 for consistancy with Billboard.biz. This would result in charts appearing as:
   • Billboard Hot 100 → US Billboard Hot 100
   • Billboard 200 → US Billboard 200
   • US Billboard Hot R&B/Hip Songs → US Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs
   • US Billboard Radio Songs → US Hot 100 Airplay (Radio Songs) etc.

Please can you give your opinion, each time referring to proposal 1, proposal 2 or proposal 3 so that we can clearly see what the consensus is. Thanks. Lil-unique1 (talk) 21:04, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

First, keep in mind that we are not the people who decide what a component chart is. That is a decision made by the chart provider. A component chart is one where the transformation from the component chart to the main chart is a purely numerical transformation (i.e., "3 points for position on airplay chart + 2 points for position on sales chart"). The charts you are listing are genre charts: they are compiled by monitoring airplay on a subset of stations identified by Billboard as associated with that genre, and cannot be numerically weighted into the Hot 100 airplay. Therefore, I vociferously and adamantly oppose proposal 1. Proposal 3 doesn't matter much to me. Proposal 2 seems like normal maintenance: the purpose of WP:USCHARTS is to provide a tabulation of the impact of our "component chart" rule. If these new charts are not component charts, they cannot be treated as component charts, and the correct treatment needs to be added.

Second, bear in mind that there is no way to "promote this to policy". It's a guideline, and will live or die by it's level of public acceptance.—Kww(talk) 21:17, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree with 2&3 and only agree with 1 if Pop Songs is an exception and is still allowed. Jayy008 (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree with #2. #1 - I think Pop Songs should be an exception, and also Rhythmic Top 40/Rhythmic Airplay because it effectively points out successful urban & pop crossovers. #3 - I think if we are removing Billboard, then what's the point of keeping Billboard Hot 100? Might as well call it US Singles Chart if we're changing everything else? Candyo32 (talk) 22:06, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Because it's called Billboard Hot 100. The others haven't got Billboard in the name. Jayy008 (talk) 22:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Jayy008; w/proposals 1, 2 & 3. Dan56 (talk) 22:30, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

In response to Kww: Actually WP:USCHARTS is currently listed as a proposal so it had yet to reach guideline/policy status. I've spoken to JubileePoliceMan who is currently auditing the music part of WP:MoS and we've come to agreement that the information could be rationalized into WP:record charts under a US Singles Charts Heading. In response to all other comments... Billboard is only the chart provider and since we do not use this for other charts i see no point to do so for billboard. The Hot 100 is the only exception because it is the only chart which actually has it in its name. Lil-unique1 (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely it can become a part of the guideline. I have a real problem with having it try to stand alone as a separate guideline (much less as a policy). It shouldn't be trying to change the existing guidelines, though, just explain them. Trying to redefine component is not a good way to change a guideline. If people decide some genre charts aren't worth mentioning, that's one thing: trying to do it by saying they are component charts when they aren't is another.—Kww(talk) 23:58, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

No thats the point. Im glad i opened the discussion because you've pointed out that there is a valid reason as to why Pop Songs can be used but other airplay charts not used. I was in no way trying to re-define a component chart. Rather the opposite... based on the information we have i was trying to draw the clearest conclusion possible. Im trying to iron out the glitches before the info is rationalised to record charts. There is some more work to be done on the digital charts bit. but the main bit at USCHARTS aparts to be ok. what do you think? Lil-unique1 (talk) 00:04, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Disagree with Prop 1, strong agree with 2 and 3. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

No idea about 1. Agree with 2 but what applies before the new digital charts by Billboard? Agree with 3. Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 09:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Well in terms of two.... i am going try and produce a list of the 21 charts available. There will need to be some new rules like Digital Dance/Electronic Songs is of lesser importance that Dance club songs therefore use dance club songs. Also like Rhythmic Digital Chart will also take a backseat to the R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart etc. Lil-unique1 (talk) 10:30, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Rolling Stone?

I know Rolling Stone is a reliable source for charts and discographies of musical artists but is the website working? I am facing issues while trying to access it. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:37, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

It looks like they've revamped their website. Artist bios, which used to be at http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/foo, now appear to be at http://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/foo/ and then some code. It also looks like a lot of album reviews have disappeared. --JD554 (talk) 07:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Good lord, those strings are so bizarre! How are we gonna update the urls? This is even worse than Billboard. Atleast they had the news article number intact while changing the url. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 08:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Crickey... the code really does have to be there. I tried removing it from those I clicked on to get http://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/foo/ but ended up at a 404 page. E.g. http://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/NeilYoung/;kw=[artists,8665,36823] works but http://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/NeilYoung/ doesn't. What the heck are they up to? --Jubilee♫clipman 09:26, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Dang. I forgot about those brackets... That makes it even harder! You need to convert the brackets into code, as well:

[ becomes %5B and ] becomes %5D

Hence, Neil Young is found at http://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/NeilYoung/;kw=%5Bartists,8665,36823%5D in fact. Ugh... --Jubilee♫clipman 09:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Blimey, there are so many links to Rolling Stone. And fuck, their search is more crap than Billboard's. None of the existent articles come up in the old search. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 09:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Bump - any thoughts on how to sort this out? --Jubilee♫clipman 17:17, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't know. I have been adding the journal entries for the existing links for the pages I watch. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 07:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Join Discussion

Wikipedia_talk:Record_charts/Billboard_charts_guide#Rhythmic_Top_40_2 Thanks! Candyo32 (talk) 01:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Important discussion regarding the future of the guideline

Please participate in /Billboard charts guide#Time to move forward and formally propose this page as a Guideline?. The questions raised there go beyond the future of that subpage. I have suggested that this main MOS be split into two pages: MOS and Content. Thank you --Jubilee♫clipman 13:29, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

• On hold indefinately while the whole structure of the MoS itself is under discussion: see the ongoing debates at WT:MOS --Jubilee♫clipman 17:19, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

RfC

It is proposed that Wikipedia:Record charts/Billboard charts guide be merged into WP:record charts. Please comment over at the RfC merge proposal. Thanks --Jubilee♫clipman 01:12, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

•  Done per consensus --Jubilee♫clipman 14:20, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

MoS naming style

There is currently an ongoing discussion about the future of this and others MoS naming style. Please consider the issues raised in the discussion and vote if you wish GnevinAWB (talk) 21:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Should russia be added to bad charts?

Today i came across a strange occurance whilst editing. I've noticed the use of tophit.ru to source russian airplay. I've usually left it in or left it down to other editors to use their discretion as to whether it should be used or not. However for the song "I Got You" by Leona Lewis i found the following:

• It was the chart position 210 based on the chart Airplay Detection TopHit 100.
• The disclaimer/note at the bottom says (translated) "Data for the last past week, are in this column, from Monday to Tuesday change every hour, in accordance with information received from radio stations. At midnight from Tuesday to Wednesday the position of the track on a weekly chart TopHit 100 fixed and then remains unchanged.".

Based on that are we to say this chart has an acceptable methidology? i've seen it appear quite a lot in articles so if we decide its methidology is dubious it should be added to Badcharts.Lil-unique1 (talk) 06:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like the position is stable once it is archived, but data from the current page can't be trusted. That isn't too much different than our situation with charts that have a page that updates every week and a stable archive.—Kww(talk) 14:02, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Is there a stable archive for Russia? I've already encoutered pages like this used to source charts before.Lil-unique1 (talk) 14:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I should add this to WP:GOODCHARTS:http://www.tophit.ru/airplay_week.shtml —Kww(talk) 15:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Support'.Lil-unique1 (talk) 16:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Agree Jayy008 (talk) 14:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

OFFICIAL Polish Airplay Chart and Video Chart (NOT Polish National Top 50) - please, add! :)

From Polish Music Charts:

Official Polish Airplay Chart is provided by Nielsen Music Control Airplay Services. The Top 5 spots of the airplay charts is published at the official Nielsen Music site every week.

Since 2010 ZPAV publish extended version of Polish Airplay at the official ZPAV site:

• Polish Airplay TOP 5 - the most popular songs on polish music stations (radio and TV);
• Polish Airplay TOP 5 - New - the most popular new singles this week;
• Polish Airplay TOP 5 - UP! - the biggest jumps this week;
• Polish Airplay TOP 5 - Video - the most popular videoclips on MTV Polska, VIVA Polska, VH1 Polska and 4fun.tv;
• Polish Dance TOP 50 - the most popular songs in the clubs;
• Polish TOP Store Chart 50 - the most popular songs played in music shops and shopping centres.

http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/nielsen/index.php

Please, add polish airplay or polish TOP5 Video here. MecenasMuzyczny (talk) 09:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

These used to be on the list, and I agree that they are valid charts (except for the Polish Dance Top 50 and Polish Top Store chart 50 ... if you have links for those, I'll look into them). The problem is that they aren't archived. Once a new week's charts are added, there's no way to see what was there before. Consensus was to removed all unarchived charts from WP:GOODCHARTS.—Kww(talk) 15:07, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay, links:

1. http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/nielsen/top5.php - Airplay TOP5 (archives: http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/nielsen/top5.php?action=getArch);
2. http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/nielsen/video.php - Video TOP5 (archives: http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/nielsen/video.php?action=getArch)
3. http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/nielsen/nowosci.php - New Singles TOP5 (archives: http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/nielsen/nowosci.php?action=getArch)
4. http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/nielsen/skoki.php - The Biggest Jumps TOP5 (archives: http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/nielsen/skoki.php)
5. http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/sklepy/index.php - TOP from music stores (archives are not available yet)
6. http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/dyskoteki/index.php - TOP from Clubs (archives: http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/dyskoteki/index.php?action=getArch).

MecenasMuzyczny (talk) 20:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Didn't see they had added the archives. I'll get most of these added in the next day or so. I'm still not seeing an archive link for "Top w dyskotekach", though.—Kww(talk) 21:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. :) It's a new site and I'm so happy that ZPAV (FINALLY!) publish TOP5 Airplay and TOP5 Videoclips and Poland has official airplay chart (not only the album's chart). Women from ZPAV told me, they are going to publish more than 5 positions but not yet - in the Future. Airplay TOP5 and Video TOP5 are most important for me, as music fan from Poland. MecenasMuzyczny (talk) 22:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)