Talk:Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi

I am a moderator of the source page/Forum quoted in the Copyright violation notice, it was one of our Forum Founders who has authored this piece and another Founder member who had started this page on WikiPedia.

The material was not copyrighted by us. Please restore this page ! See http://www.sunniport.com/portal/viewtopic.php?p=300 for explicit notice on this material NOT being under any copyright.

Admin Team www.sunniport.com

Ok. That note at the top of the page: "Note : This content is free for distribution or republishing and is not under any copyright" is quite sufficient. I've removed the copyvio notice, and noted the point at Wikipedia:Copyright problems. Thanks so much for helping clear this up! And thanks esspecialy for contributing to Wikipedia, we really need better material on Islamic topics. 04:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Ahmad Raza Khan's scientics & Quranic approach and Earh stationary claim

In the subheading which tells about the knowledge of ahmad raza khan about physics, it is written that Islam says that the Earth is stationary while the Sun orbits it. It is utterly incorrect. Learned modern scholars like Dr. Zakir Naik and others do not interpret these verses and ahadith regarding orbital motion as they are stated in this article. So, I request you remove that part in which it is said that Earth is stationary and Sun revolves around it. Islam can never say such unscientific things. Uzisar (talk) 04:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with you. The findings of Ahmed Rida Khan was controversial and unscientific and reference to his findings should be removed from this article. Majority of Muslim intellectuals do not agree with this claim.Marrigreat (talk) 14:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

  Majority of Muslims scholars do not interprete these verses and Hadith regarding orbital motion as stated by Ahmed Rida Khan. Science also proved that the findings of Mr. Rida are just ignorance of the truth. These claimes should be removed from the Wikipedia. 203.130.7.109 (talk) 06:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• Well I don't think so, If you go through and study the beliefs and concepts of Muslim Scholars from 1400 years back to now, you will come to know that he is Correct. If you want to debate on this on Islamic/Religious grounds I am here for.

  He wrote books on this controversial topic, but these books are in Urdu Language, If you can have argue with me, I will provide you the reference material.

Links

Are any of the following directly relevant to this article? They come from a highly dubious anonymous source (Wetman 21:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)):

• http://www.islamicacademy.org/
• http://www.razaacademy.com/
• http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/msoofindia
• http://www.sunnidawateislami.net/
• http://www.geocities.com/msoamu/read.html
• http://www.raza.co.za/
• http://www.barkati.net

These links are all links to Barelvi institutes and organisations, which is the sect/movement that Ahmad Raza Khan (RA) founded. These perhaps aren't relevant to this article but would be to the barelvi article. Tanzeel 12:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

The claim that Ahmad Raza Khan founded a sect is a nonsense which has no basis in fact. That he adhered to the teachings of a sect goes without say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rj ws (talk • contribs) 13:19, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Imam Raza Khan and Ahmad Raza

A-salaam-o-alaikum-Rahmen-ALLAH,

Tonight, I found the Imam Raza Khan on the clean-up page and thought i would edit it. I have two new sources that you don't have (well you don't have any) I think it would be good to join the best that i have written and the whole of your site. It makes no sense to keep people going to a wrong site and being confused. join them together please brother. It serves no point to let them be seperate. Mike33 22:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Edited School of Thought section

I have added two references, fixed spelling, and removed some dishonest writing (i.e. writing wahhabi and linking deobandi page). Thanks Wa Salam Alaikum 58.111.113.52 08:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC) (AN-MEL)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 17:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"RESEARCH ON A'LA HAZRAT'S FAUZ-E-MOBEEN: Scientists from the Allama Iqbal Open University in Islamabad have taken a keen interest in researching A'la Hazrat's (alaihir rahmah) "Fauz-e-Mobeen" which deals with the movement of the sun and planets around the earth. At present, research is about to commence on the subject.

CHRISTIAN CONVERTS TO ISLAM AFTER READING "KANZUL IMAAN": In 1974, Dr. Hannif Faatimi of London University brought the Professor of Kuwait an English translation of "Kanzul Imaan" (A'la Hazrat's translation of the Holy Quran) for printing. Prof. Faatimi at that time had met a Christian scholar who had revealed that he was interested in reading more about Islam. Prof. Faatimi was two-minded about giving him an English copy of Kanzul Imaan. Eventually, he gave him a copy to read. The Christian scholar, after reading this translation, accepted Islam." This stuff is blatant POV violation

NPOV

This article clearly lacks sources and assumingly does not satisfy the required NPOV standards of Wikipedia. Scythian1 (talk) 05:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Section Criticism is once again inserted

There are many users who don't have enough temper to bear a section of criticism in this article.Why???Marrigreat (talk) 06:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous article

This article is an awful mess. It is full of POV and bias, and what is even more shocking is that it is biased towards two points of view at the same time! People are just tacking on whatever they like to the article as if it is some kind of talk page. The block about science says both that Ala Hazrat was a brilliant scientist who disproved geocentrism, AND that he was a poor scientist that simply embarrassed Islam! At least make your POV bias and vandalism consistant!

91.105.161.37 (talk) 23:10, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

this is pure vandalism .. it should be edited by a neutral source .. its is highly biased against the deobandi sect of muslims and goes on even to call them kafirs (non muslims).. These are point of view of the author(s) trying to market/propogate their sect and not facts .. which is against the very spirit of our wikipedia community. [Talha Aziz] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aziz talha (talk • contribs) 07:01, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Proof Reading

I've done an awful lot of proof reading, and I hope you lot are happy with it. If you object with my corrections: please brothers, take it from a born and bred Englishman. I've noticed that there is a glitch of some sort after the part in the article where it says "therefore disobeying the following hadith"- I hope to fix this after getting some help, and I would not like anyone to revert the changes I have made since it was strenuous work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huss4in (talk • contribs) 09:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Changes Reverted

It appears as if the strenuous grammatical proof reading i've done has been reverted. Thats quite disappointing but if people prefer bad, influent grammar as a way to present to the world the founder of their religious school, thats fine by me. It seems a fellow brothers work isn't appreciated by some, which doesn't bother me since that is the reason why there is so much ignorance in that part of the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huss4in (talk • contribs) 19:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

More edits

I have edited to:

• remove repeated links and links to plain English words per WP:OVERLINK
• remove date links per MOS:SYL
• fix the capitalization of headings per WP:MOSHEAD

and other copyedits per WP:MOS. Ground Zero | t 03:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Need for further editing

This article is very messy, and in parts the English needs correcting (as someone seems to have tried, but his corrections were apparently deleted).

Perhaps it might be an idea to transfer the earth-centric information to a separate article, perhaps an article on one of his books on the subject (Such as Nuzool-e Ayat-e Furqan ...).

There is also too much fancy wording in places. Energyworm (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with your assesment of the quality of the English used I've made some minor emendations myself I'm just waiting to see how long they last before I do anything more extensive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rj ws (talk • contribs) 13:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistency of names

The title of the article is Ahmed Rida Khan; immediately under it is Ahmad Raza Khan; the Urdu version reads Maulana A. R. Khan (I write AR to avoid the above alternation in transliterated spellings), and the Hindi reads as Imam Ahmad Raza Khan. Further into the article he is referred to as A‘lahazrat, which is the title by which adherents of the Bareilvi School of Thought now refer to him; non-Bareilvi Muslims, or non-Muslims will be confused to a degree as to who this A‘lahazrat is.

It might be an idea to make the main page Ahmad Raza Khan, since that is the Urdu / Hindi pronunciation of his name; Rida is an approximation of the Arabic name, and he was not an Arab. Whatever is done, some degree of consistency is needed. Energyworm (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Giant quotes?

The sections like Works in physics appear to be quotes. Are they? If so, they should be quoted and sourced.—C45207 | Talk 07:06, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The article has been neutralized

A significant effort has been made in this respect, please further improve the article but don't alter the entire article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelonerex (talk • contribs) 14:07, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

"Neutral"? The October 21 version of the article refers to the Ahmaddiya as a "deviant sect". The version you cite as neutral is extremely, extremely biased. I have reverted to an earlier version from over six months ago, and done further cleanup on even that version. Please do not re-introduce these biases which have ruined the article for months. "Neutral" does not mean "pleasing to my side of the argument." Stability Information East 2 (talk) 09:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Move article to Ahmed Raza Khan

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page already moved by someone. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

---

Aala Hazrat → Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi —

• Setting aside the major POV problems of the article itself, this article should be moved to "Ahmed Raza Khan", as "Aala Hazrat" is an extremely POV honorific. The proposed name change appears to be the most common spelling. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 08:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

On second look, I have proposed deleting Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi, and moving this article's text to that title. The text here is better since I did today's cleanup, and the Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi title seems the clearest and most neutral. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 09:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ahmed_Raza_Khan_Barelvi. I've nominated that article for deletion as a content fork, and then we can move this article there, and re-direct all possible alternate spellings to the good article to prevent future forks. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 06:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Repeated reversions to a POV variant by Thelonerex

Each time this article has been cleaned up by other editors, others have swooped in (particularly Thelonerex at this point) to swap in an extremely POV version of this article. Just as a brief example, here are a few of the more egregious POV quotes from that version:

• Ala Hazrat has been recognized as the great Mujaddid of the 19th century
• A collection of fatwas by the title of Fatawa Ridawiyya, is his magna carta.
• his saintly guide His holiness Shah Aale- Rasool Marehravi
• & his noble son Maulana Hamid Raza Khan
• Main specialty of Kanzul Iman is Imam Ahmad Raza preserved the high status of Allah & his Messenger in the translation.
• The students of Arabic have considered the intellect of Imam Ahmad Raza Khan in this field. Applauding the ability of Imam Ahmad Raza Khan in the science of Hadith
• An uncommon feature of Fatawa Ridawiyya is that it is hailed by among friends and foes alike.
• Antagonism towards modern day deviant sects
• For a full exposé of deviant heretical sects and the verdicts against them according to traditional Sunni Islam, one can obtain English copies of Husam al Harmain from Raza Academy Ltd. based in Stockport in the United Kingdom, as well as many other works of Imam Ahmad Raza Khan.

This version of the article is completely unacceptable, and I don't understand why Barelvi editors would even want such a fawning article, given that any neutral person reading it would discount it as propaganda and self-flattery rather than genuine scholarly information about a Barelvi intellectual. Any Barelvi who is reverting this article to the POV variant is doing his group no favors, as he is simply making his own side look intellectually dishonest. I suggest that all neutral editors interested in maintaining an objective article be vigilant: the POV version is about 23kB, the correct one is 10kB, so if you note a sudden byte jump in the history that's a good sign that someone is tampering with the article again. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 09:22, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Further explanation: Responding to Thelonerex Edit summary this article is constantly being altered on unreasonable grounds and being unjustifiably shortened than its original length, first read the above examples of improper POV material. Aside from those, and many other POV portions, there are a couple other issues:

• The 23kB version lists many names without giving wikilinks or any other indication of notability to the casual reader, making it an "example farm"
• That version has a lot of long anecdotes which could be easily summarized in a sentence or two, and whose long versions are unencyclopedic and full of POV implications
• Thelonerex keeps removing the Criticism section, showing a total disregard for neutrality
• That version has way too many ELs
• That version overexplains many terms, such as "wuzu" (which is not its Wikipedia-convention spelling, should be wudu) which are given good explanation in the wikilink
• Overall that version has a strong pro-Barelvi bias, has derogatory tone about the Ahmadiyya, has long anecdotes without justification, too many ELs, and is overall just not a good Wikipedia article, and far inferior to the 10kB version which, though not perfect, is relatively good. Please do not revert to the 23kB Thelonerex version without making a very, very clear case here which responds to these points. Honestly, I don't think there is any reasonable rebuttal, but I'd rather hear a rebuttal than have editor's work reverted out-of-hand for POV reasons. Stability Information East 2 (talk) 12:12, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Muslim007, 13 May 2010

Respected Sir, I want to ask wikipedia that why this page was edited

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Raza_Khan_Barelvi

Alot of stuff from this article has been deleted. Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi is one of the greatest religious scholar of Islam who had wrote more than 1000 books his biography should not be that short. somebody has edited this page and alot of his biography has been deleted and many External links were deleted and no information about his greatest writings and his works in Science, Fiqh, Quranic Studies, Hadith Studies & Against the DEVIANT SECTS of Islam. please restore all of stuff which was in this article. And i request you to edit this page please read the biography of Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi here...

http://www.sunnah.org/articles/Imam_raza_ahmed_khan.htm http://www.raza.co.za/the_mujaddid_imam_ahmed_raza.html

Read his biography from above links and edit them in his wiki page. He's one of the Greatest Scholar in the History of Islam therefore his Biography must be written As Long as You Can. Hoping for an early response.

Thank You Muslim007 (talk) 15:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)