Talk:Elvis Presley

Uncertainty about actual cause of death

(Older conversation predating the above clarification)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Questions over cause of death

The first paragraph of this section reads:

"Drug use was heavily implicated" in Presley's death, writes Guralnick. "No one ruled out the possibility of anaphylactic shock brought on by the codeine pills ... to which he was known to have had a mild allergy." A pair of lab reports filed two months later each strongly suggested that polypharmacy was the primary cause of death; one reported "fourteen drugs in Elvis' system, ten in significant quantity." Forensic historian and pathologist Michael Baden views the situation as complicated: "Elvis had had an enlarged heart for a long time. That, together with his drug habit, caused his death. But he was difficult to diagnose; it was a judgment call."

I have included some additional, well-sourced information:

"Drug use was heavily implicated" in Presley's death, writes Guralnick. "No one ruled out the possibility of anaphylactic shock brought on by the codeine pills ... to which he was known to have had a mild allergy." A pair of lab reports filed two months later each strongly suggested that polypharmacy was the primary cause of death; one reported "fourteen drugs in Elvis' system, ten in significant quantity." Moreover, "the liver showed considerable damage, and the large intestine was clogged with fecal matter, indicating a painful and longstanding bowel condition." Therefore, Presley had most possibly "been taken while 'straining at stool.' " Forensic historian and pathologist Michael Baden views the situation as complicated: "Elvis had had an enlarged heart for a long time. That, together with his drug habit, caused his death. But he was difficult to diagnose; it was a judgment call."

This information has been deleted by user DocKino who claimed that it was a “bad faith edit“. Could it be that DocKino’s removals of well-sourced contributions by other users are made in bad faith? Here is what reputed Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick says about Presley's death:

The only thing that appeared to have been missed, aside from the empty syringes, was the book that Elvis had in the bathroom with him when he died, a study of sex and psychic energy that correlated sexual positions with astrological signs. Warlick found a stain on the bathroom carpeting, too, that seemed to indicate where Elvis had thrown up after being stricken, apparently while seated on the toilet. It looked to the medical investigator as if he had "stumbled or crawled several feet before he died." ... nine pathologists from Baptist cond acted the examination in full knowledge that the world was watching but that the results would be released to Elvis' father alone. ... Francisco announced the results of the autopsy, even as the autopsy was still going on. Death, he said, was "due to cardiac arrhythmia due to undetermined heartbeat." ... But there were in fact at that time no results to report. The autopsy proper went on for another couple of hours. Specimens were collected and carefully preserved, the internal organs were examined and the heart found to be enlarged, a significant amount of coronary atherosclerosis was observed, the liver showed considerable damage, and the large intestine was clogged with fecal matter, indicating a painful and longstanding bowel condition. The bowel condition alone would have strongly suggested to the doctors what by now they had every reason to suspect from Elvis' hospital history, the observed liver damage, and abundant anecdotal evidence: that drug use was heavily implicated in this unanticipated death of a middle-aged man with no known history of heart disease who had been "mobile and functional within eight hours of his death." It was certainly possible that he had been taken while "straining at stool," and no one ruled out the possibility of anaphylactic shock brought on by the codeine pills he had gotten from his dentist, to which he was known to have had a mild allergy of long standing. The pathologists, however, were satisfied to wait for the lab results, which they were confident would overrule Dr. Francisco's precipitate, and somewhat meaningless, announcement, as indeed they eventually did. There was little disagreement in fact between the two principal laboratory reports and analyses filed two months later, with each stating a strong belief that the primary cause of death was polypharmacy, and the BioScience Laboratories report, initially filed under the patient name of "Ethel Moore," indicating the detection of fourteen drugs in Elvis' system, ten in significant quantity. Codeine appeared at ten times the therapeutic level, methaqualone (Quaalude) in an arguably toxic amount, three other drugs appeared to be on the borderline of toxicity taken in and of themselves, and "the combined effect of the central nervous system depressants and the codeine" had to be given heavy consideration. See Careless Love:The Unmaking of Elvis Presley (1999), pp. 651-652.

This means that my addition is well sourced, and it is certainly of much importance in a section dealing with questions concerning the actual cause of Elvis’s death. Onefortyone (talk) 14:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

No, the topic receives sufficient coverage as is. I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for you, 141. I hope that someday you find the help you badly need. DocKino (talk) 19:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

New disclosure about cause of death

The source is questionable, but his doctor now claims chronic constipation from an abnormally sized colon killed him. [1] -64.85.214.178 (talk) 19:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 24.61.236.106, 8 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

To whom it may concern: I have found new information on Elvis' death, and would like to submit it for inclusion on this page. Here is the link to the news article. http://bostonherald.com/track/inside_track/view.bg?articleid=1253045 This should be included because it was discovered that this is the true reason that Elvis died, not from drugs or a heart attack. It was posted about 2 days ago, so it should be there for quite some time. Thank you for your consideration. I would add this myself were the article not protected. This information is indeed true as reported by the Boston Herald of Boston, MA. Elvis' personal physician reported this finding to FOX News.

24.61.236.106 (talk) 20:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

• The article does not state that Presley died of a heart attack. It says that the Coroner concluded that "everything points to a sudden, violent heart attack" - and the fact that the Coroner thought that is true.

• It explains that there were multiple conditions - he suffered from multiple ailments—glaucoma, high blood pressure, liver damage, and an enlarged colon, each aggravated, and possibly caused, by drug abuse.

• If you think that this could be clarified with additional material, then please make a specific request - ie specify exactly what should be changed, with references.

• The above tabloidesque source must be taken in context with other sources - see WP:UNDUE.  Chzz  ►  23:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

 Not done

This interesting article says that Elvis

succumbed, on the toilet, to chronic constipation. ... “We didn’t realize until the autopsy that his constipation was as bad,” Nichopoulos, author of the new book “The King and Dr. Nick,” told Fox News. “We found stool in his colon which had been there for four or five months because of the poor motility of the bowel.” Elvis suffered from a hereditary condition called bowel paralysis, Nichopoulos said. Presley’s colon was 5 to 6 inches in diameter, which is about twice the size of the average person’s. It was 8 to 9 feet long, where a normal one is 4 to 5 feet, the doctor said. ... “He’d have accidents onstage. He’d have to change clothes and come back because of the way we were trying to treat his constipation.”

These are important details and parts of this material should be included in the article, especially in view of the fact that these details are to be found in a new book written by Presley’s personal physician and friend, George C. Nichopoulos, and entitled The King and Dr. Nick: What Really Happened to Elvis and Me (2010).

However, there are some additional facts. The book that Elvis had in the bathroom with him when he died, was “a study of sex and psychic energy that correlated sexual positions with astrological signs.” See Peter Guralnick, Careless Love: The Unmaking of Elvis Presley (1999), p.651. Could it be therefore that Elvis died from excessive masturbation? It is well known that Presley seemed to prefer masturbation to normal sexual intercourse. He was also a voyeur who installed one-way mirrors. Be that as it may, Guralnick further writes that

the internal organs were examined and the heart found to be enlarged, a significant amount of coronary atherosclerosis was observed, the liver showed considerable damage, and the large intestine was clogged with fecal matter, indicating a painful and longstanding bowel condition. The bowel condition alone would have strongly suggested to the doctors what by now they had every reason to suspect from Elvis' hospital history, the observed liver damage, and abundant anecdotal evidence: that drug use was heavily implicated in this unanticipated death of a middle-aged man with no known history of heart disease who had been "mobile and functional within eight hours of his death." It was certainly possible that he had been taken while "straining at stool", and no one ruled out the possibility of anaphylactic shock brought on by the codeine pills he had gotten from his dentist, to which he was known to have had a mild allergy of long standing.

Additional material about Elvis’s death is to be found in Alanna Nash’s recent book, Baby Let's Play House: Elvis Presley and the Women Who Loved Him (2010). Onefortyone (talk) 00:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

• Tabloid toss. It's all too easy to defame the dead, because they can't answer back. On the other hand, if these authors justify their claims, using reliable sources, as we are required to do, fine. Until then, forget it. Rodhullandemu 00:48, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Tabloid toss? Sorry, Nichopoulos was Elvis's personal physician. Guralnick and Nash are authors of mainstream biographies of the singer. These are all reliable sources according to Wikipedia policy. Onefortyone (talk) 00:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I remain to be convinced that these authors have not an axe to grind, and are dedicated to the truth, as opposed to their own particular interpretations of events. We're talking about facts versus opinions, and by any analysis, facts trump opinions from day 1 to day 999. I repeat; where did these authors get their information, and if it doesn't meet our standards, we should treat it as unreliable. End of. Rodhullandemu 01:08, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

These authors got their informatiom from the nine pathologists who were part of the autopsy. Furthermore, Alanna Nash was among the first journalists to view the remains of Elvis and she contacted several doctors about the case shortly after the singer’s death. You can be sure that these mainstream authors based their accounts on reliable sources that meet our standards. Onefortyone (talk) 01:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

• Then provide the sources; until them, it ain't gonna happen. Rodhullandemu 01:41, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I do not understand your argument. According to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. This means that Wikipedians do not need to cite primary sources such as Dr Francisco and the other doctors (used, for instance, by Guralnick) if there are mainstream secondary sources summarizing the facts, such as the books by Guralnick, Nash and Nichopoulos. Onefortyone (talk) 01:54, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The problem is not with the authors,it has to do with the media,like the Herald and how they run with a small portion of information and twist it, purely for titillation, that's all. If anyone cares to read the interview with Elvis Information Network and Dr. Nichopoulos, he discusses that very thing. I'll also point out, that Guralnick, Nash and Nichopoulos never mention anything about Elvis masturbating to porno material. Get a job with the Herald and like 141,it's write up your alley. May I add one more thing, I suppose the constipation theory, which I might add, has more credibility, than Albert Goldman's, Elvis Committed Suicide. Give me a break!--Jaye9 (talk) 03:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to bore you with this folks, but I really would like to say something else, especially after reading once again partly what 141 wrote above. This is precisely what certain parts of the media do every day, but not all thankfully, just the tabloids and lazy journalists. It's called misleading the reading into thinking a certain way, for his or her own agenda, mind you it's quite a skill when you think about it. 141 has shown a great example of this very thing,this is just a sample on how he does it. Firstly he writes that Guralnick states about Elvis reading a certain book, which is correct, but then 141 goes on to say, could it be that Elvis died from excessive masturbation and then you couldn't stop yourself 141 and then we get the one way mirror bit etc etc. Over the years I've read from reliable sources mind you, that Elvis masturbated, liked to watch women together, was a compulsive womaniser and slept with 100's of women, video taped women, had a bad temper at times, was generous, mean, kind, cruel = human and I believe these stories. Why is then that I still respect Presley and not you. Why is that I don't believe Elvis was a pervert, but I find you quite perverse. WHY? because I'm a fan, horseshit!--Jaye9 (talk) 06:14, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Not surprisingly, I agree with Jaye. How someone can go from a fact about a person reading a book on sexual positions to then suggest they were masturbating is beyond me. There is absolutely no evidence that Elvis was masturbating, not one single thing that could make any sane person even think it at all. I've never in my life even heard another human being suggest it for a moment, even as a joke. Until now. For over 30 years we've been told that Elvis died on the toilet during a bowel movement, a fact that has entertained and encouraged his detractors for just as long making him a laughing stock to some, and now we are expected to seriously entertain the idea that he actually died while getting "All Shook Up" in the trouser department? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Just a reminder to all you good folks out there. On April 17, Frania W said, "...141 is having a field day with all this attention paid to him. Is not it time to follow DocKino's advice & ignore him?" That advice was, "... I respectfully ask my fellow editors [not to feed the troll]. When the troll comes around, don't see red, think green. Silence here and reversion where it counts solves the problem with the least waste of energy". Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 16:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

As we've since seen, that sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work. If we ignore him, he claims that silence amounts to "consensus", and adds it back,[2][3] thus resuming the edit war again, and the consequent attention upon himself. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Uncertainty about actual cause of death

With the recent revelation about constipation, should Category:Deaths from myocardial infarction be removed? __meco (talk) 21:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Please make the effort to read the well-sourced article before starting a thread of this kind. Whatever the nature of Presley's condition in his final days, "everything points to a sudden, violent heart attack" as the immediate cause of death.—DCGeist (talk) 21:50, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Several Wikipedians are of the opinion that this well-sourced detail concerning chronic constipation as the cause of Elvis's death should be included in the article (see above). Even Elvis fan, Jaye9, says, "I suppose the constipation theory, which I might add, has more credibility, than Albert Goldman's, Elvis Committed Suicide." And indeed, for reasons of balance, Dr Nichopoulos's view must be added according to Wikipedia policy. Onefortyone (talk) 00:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

So, a doctor whose license to practice was revoked by a state board due to multiple misdeeds offers "shocking" revelations about an autopsy 33 years after the fact to help hawk his new tell-all. This can safely be ignored, and should be, unless and until it is confirmed by responsible medical professionals.—DCGeist (talk) 01:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream Elvis biographer, Peter Guralnick, who contacted the responsible medical professionals, writes that "the liver showed considerable damage, and the large intestine was clogged with fecal matter, indicating a painful and longstanding bowel condition. The bowel condition alone would have strongly suggested to the doctors what by now they had every reason to suspect from Elvis' hospital history, the observed liver damage, and abundant anecdotal evidence: that drug use was heavily implicated in this unanticipated death of a middle-aged man with no known history of heart disease who had been 'mobile and functional within eight hours of his death.' It was certainly possible that he had been taken while 'straining at stool'..." According to a recent book by Presley's main physician, Dr Nichopoulos, the singer "succumbed, on the toilet, to chronic constipation." I do not understand why this information should be omitted. Onefortyone (talk) 02:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

1. In his final years, Presley's general health severely deteriorated, largely due to drug abuse, and he suffered a variety of ailments. The article mentions "glaucoma, high blood pressure, liver damage, and an enlarged colon."
2. The immediate cause of his death was a heart attack. The article makes this clear.
3. The etiology of the heart attack involved polypharmacy to a significant degree. The article makes this clear.

I don't see anything that needs to be added on the matter of his ill health and death. This is an encyclopedia article, not a book.—DCGeist (talk) 02:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see that you are addressing Onefortyone's argument in a rational manner. Clearly they have a point. I'm not going to argue the issue myself, despite being the one who initiated this thread simply because I haven't studied the facts sufficiently. __meco (talk) 10:24, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

141's argument is that one guy's word should be taken over the preponderance of sources, and DC's argument is that that one guy is not a reliable source in any case. So this nonsense about Elvis "dying from constipation" doesn't belong in the article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:31, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Also, according to the Constipation article, the worst effect that can happen is hemmorhoids. Hey! Maybe he died from hemmorhoids! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Meco, I accept that you say you haven't studied the facts sufficiently, but you're perhaps not aware of the chronic issue that has afflicted this article for so long, namely, one editor trying to push a minority fringe perspective. I must choose my words carefully to avoid any personal attack (and indeed, although I admit Onefortyone mystifies me, I have nothing personal against him, just a slight dislike of what is surely just a silly game that wastes the time of all the editors trying to build an encyclopedia). Long before this latest "news" broke, sourced from the dubious doctor whose licence was revoked, Presley's bowel condition has been widely known, and is already covered adequately in the article. The painful and longstanding congestion of more immediate concern is the one afflicting this talk page, just as it has done for years. It seems that one editor will never be happy until the article reads as follows: Elvis Presley was an unpopular American singer, full of shit, who died on the toilet. The end. If you think I exaggerate, please see the archives and ask the administrators who have found it necessary to discipline the editor in the past over this issue. PL290 (talk) 12:06, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I know we are not really supposed to compliment other editors as a rule, but I have to say that upon reading User: DCGeist comments on the Elvis Talk page and what he had written when the article was being reviewed for FA and I think he write beautifully, something of which I'm not good at, so for that reason I will put down Mr Brown's comments that he made on May 9th 2010 in the Telegraph.co.uk, which pretty well sums up, on how I feel about this discussion.

"The latest claim to emerge from Dr George Nichopolous, Elvis Presley's personal physician, is that the King died of constipation, or so the Mail reports.

But why wait until now to produce this theory? Well, the claims surface just as Dr Nick, as he's been known since Elvis's time, comes out with a new book. So that's part of it, I expect. But also the 83-year-old doctor has spent the last 33 years trying to persuade the Elvis fans that he was not responsible for the King's death through the massive doses of lethal painkillers and sleeping pills he prescribed. The constipation theory is his latest attempt to exculpate himself.

I don't think it's very likely, though. No one is disputing that Elvis suffered from blocked bowels and a distended colon. There's ample evidence from testimony of witnesses - people involved in the post mortem, associates of Elvis who got to know his personal habits. The King resorted to drastic measures to try to mobilise his gut in the later years.

And it's no wonder his bowels were sluggish. He subsisted on the kind of Southern working-class diet - high-volume, low-fibre, high-fat - that was calculated to slow things up. Added to which - and this is the key thing - Elvis took huge doses of opioids. They're drugs which exert a "bowel-freezing" effect.

The idea that his constipation killed Elvis is not new. For years the theory has done the rounds that he died as a result of the Valsalva manoeuvre. He strains at the abdominal region, and by a complex sequence of events this causes a fatal heart attack. That's the idea anyway. And of course he did die on the lavatory.

I still don't really buy it. I think Elvis did die of a "heart attack". But it stricks me as willfully abtuse to ignore the evidence of multiple drugs in his system. Elvis had nearly died from accidental overdoses in the past. Why not now? Barbiturates, especially, killed thousands of people either by accident or on purpose (in suicides) in those days, before they were phased out. Plus he used plenty of other now-obsolete hypnotics (sleeping pills) which can kill, such as methaqualone (Quaalude), ethchiorvynol (Placidyl) and ethinamate (Valmid). And on top of those there were opioids, codeine and stronger compounds.

There was a cover-up at the time, that is now accepted, when Baptist Memorial determined publicly that the cause of death was the nebulous condition "cardiac arrythmia". It was a cover-up of sorts, at any rate: they wanted to protect the reputation of a noble son of Memphis for a degree of obfuscation if not outright dishonesty.

As far a Dr Nick, as I explained at length in January, I think he was a good man, a bit out of his depth. Perhaps he was starstruck. And Elvis was a headstrong client who would have gone elsewhere for his medication and often did, if Dr Nick has said "no". I doubt constipation killed Elvis. But, to be sure, it would have made him extremely uncomfortable."

Source: Andrew M Brown, writer who specialises in mental health and in the influence of addiction and substance abuse on culture

So you see this is the long version of what is already covered aptly in the aritcle as it stands.--Jaye9 (talk) 14:18, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Nichopoulos as a reliable source

DC Geist wrote above, commendably in my view: "So, a doctor whose license to practice was revoked by a state board due to multiple misdeeds offers "shocking" revelations about an autopsy 33 years after the fact to help hawk his new tell-all. This can safely be ignored, and should be, unless and until it is confirmed by responsible medical professionals."

In the article, we have approved the following: "After re-examining Presley's X-rays in the 1990s, Nichopoulos concluded that he was probably also suffering from degenerative arthritis, fueling his addiction to painkillers."

Given that Nichopoulos's pronouncements since Presley's death often seem to be self-serving (and the above arthritis claim can be interpreted that way), I wonder if we should have his comments on Presley's claimed arthritis in the article, unless that too can be "confirmed by responsible medical professionals." Any thoughts? Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 12:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Very good point, imo. On the subject of the possible self-serving aspect of any Nichopoulos influence on published material, he could of course be identical with ... a Wikipedia editor. Particularly a Wikipedia editor demonstrating an obsessive desire to smear the singer, reduce his worth, deny his popularity, or, for that matter, repeatedly attempt to prove constipation was the cause of death. Anyway, that's an aside ... yes, I suggest we remove the statement you've highlighted, unless others have more to say on that. PL290 (talk) 12:36, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Nichopoulos earned his B.S. degree from the University of the South and then received his medical degree from Vanderbilt University Medical School in Nashville. He spent a decade with Elvis on the road and at Graceland, trying to maintain the precarious health of the singer. On August 16, 1977, he found himself in the ambulance with Elvis and he signed the death certificate. In his book, Nichopoulos reveals interesting background information about the relationship between the coroner's team led by Dr. Francisco and the pathologists at Baptist Memorial Hospital led by Dr. Muirhead. He thoroughly explains why the autopsy was private and how the toxicology reports were interpreted so differently by the parties. The reader gets a good idea what went wrong with the autopsy from the start, how Dr. Francisco annoyed the pathologists around Muirhead by not simply stating at the first press conference that they haven't found the cause of death yet but giving the media the information of "cardiac arrhythmia caused by undetermined heartbeat". The outcome of these investigations were three lab reports, none of them convincingly stating that there had been a drug overdose or a polypharmacy case (two of the reports didn't even assume such a thing). The Bioscience report published in the book The Death of Elvis by Thompson & Cole (1991) does not come up with even one drug dosage in the lethal range, only two in the minor areas of a toxic and the rest in the therapeutical range. It was only suggested that these dosages may have worked together to have caused Elvis’s death. However, at the time of his death it was widely reported in the media that the singer had died from cardiac arrhythmia, an irregular heartbeat brought on by drug addiction, obesity and a bum ticker. But were these reports true? Dr. Davis, a pathologist of the Miami School of Medicine and former chief examiner of Dade County, was asked in 1994 by the state of Tennessee to look once again into all the findings of the autopsy and the Bioscience toxicology report and he was of the opinion that drugs did not kill the singer. Many of the drugs found in his body were psychoinactive metabolites which means that Presley's drug level was considerably lower than originally interpreted in 1977. Therefore, Nichopoulos comes to the conclusion that Elvis may have used too many medications and may have abused some of them during his lifetime but that he didn't die of it. The book presents a lot of information for and against Nichopoulos being a "pill pusher" and the man who killed Elvis. It contains a detailed toxicology report and there is an extensive list of source data in the back of the book that includes legal documents, court records, articles, interviews, etc. According to Nichopoulos, after Elvis "died, we weren't sure (the exact cause of death) so I continued to do some research and I had some doctors call me from different places and different med schools that were doing research on constipation and different problems you can get into with it." According to the physician, now retired, the autopsy revealed Presley's colon was 5 to 6 inches in diameter (the normal width is usually 2 to 3 inches) and instead of being 4 to 5 feet in length, his colon was 8 to 9 feet in length. "We didn't' realize until the autopsy that his constipation was as bad - we knew it was bad because it was hard for us to treat, but we didn't realize what it had done. We just assumed that the constipation was secondary to the meds that he was taking for his arthritic pain and for his insomnia." In 1975, the primary treatment was a colostomy, the removal of the colon, but according to the book, Presley's "ego" got in the way. "He was embarrassed. ... He'd have accidents onstage. He'd have to change clothes and come back because of the way we were trying to treat his constipation." "If they had done the colostomy then, he'd probably still be here," Nichopoulos said. That Elvis "succumbed, on the toilet, to chronic constipation" sounds as reasonable as any other theory about the singer’s death. I do not understand why some Wikipedians think that this book is not a reliable source. Onefortyone (talk) 00:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Just move along, folks. Please don't gawk at the tragic accident. DocKino (talk) 03:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, officer—you people do a wonderful job. Now, could you please direct me to the nearest, er, toilet? I think I feel a little sick. PL290 (talk) 07:32, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

141's singular obsession with this topic reminds me of the school principal in National Lampoon's High School Yearbook Parody. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

User meco has stated above, "I don't see that you are addressing Onefortyone's argument in a rational manner," and this user is certainly right in his opinion that the other users do not adequately discuss the sources and argument I have provided. Their attitude clearly violates Wikipedia policy. Onefortyone (talk) 21:39, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

You don't die from constipation. End of story. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Dr Nichopoulos and other physicians are of a different opinion. For reasons of balance, their statement should be included in the article. Onefortyone (talk) 22:01, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Technically, right now that guy's no more a doctor than I am. However, if you could find any other humans in history that died from constipation, that might bolster the ex-doctor's case. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:31, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Nichopoulos earned his B.S. degree from the University of the South and then received his medical degree from Vanderbilt University Medical School in Nashville. At the time of Elvis's death, he was still a practicing doctor. "We found stool in his colon which had been there for four or five months because of the poor motility of the bowel," he said. According to Nichopoulos, doctors from different places and different med schools that were doing research on constipation and different problems you can get into with it, support his theory. Onefortyone (talk) 22:41, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

There's obviously a good reason he's no longer a doctor. And the constipation article gives no indication that it can be fatal. But if you can find any other historical figures who allegedly died of constipation, I'd sure like to know about it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:52, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Just some examples. The Texas State Journal of Medicine, Volume 10, writes about a woman who is reported to have died of constipation. The Retrospect of Practical Medicine and Surgery, Parts 86-87, includes the case of an individual (Charles C.) who actually died of fatal constipation without any indication of obstruction before his death. In her study, A Tropical Dependency: An Outline of the Ancient History of the Western Soudan, Flora Louisa Shaw writes that Al Far died of constipation. Onefortyone (talk) 23:03, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

In what years? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

These are late-nineteenth and twentieth-century cases. Here is another example: The New York State Journal of Medicine 66 (1966) writes that Horace Fletcher, a well-to-do businessman who adored good food, died of constipation. Onefortyone (talk) 23:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

You seem to have studied this a great deal. I don't want to know why. But I wouldn't consider something from the 19th century to be necessarily valid. And I wonder if there are any since 1966. More to the point, how can constipation kill? It doesn't make sense. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

According to the US Centers for Disease Control, constipation related deaths are very low, and less than 17.4% of the reported causes of death. However, they do occur. See also How many days will it take to die of constipation? By the way, it has even been suggested that the decline of ferns changed the diets of herbivorous dinosaurs so that they died of constipation! Onefortyone (talk) 00:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

That says you'd be dead in 3 weeks from toxin buildup. So what's with the "4 or 5 months" claim? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:23, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

And were there any toxicology tests done that would support the ex-doctor's claim, or is it like the boxed section says, that he's cooked up this theory to try to deflect the blame resulting from all the drugs he was giving Elvis? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:26, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not a physician. According to his autopsy, Elvis's colon was 5 to 6 inches in diameter, nearly twice the size of the average person. It was also 8 to 9 feet long, compared with the normal 4 to 5 feet. Perhaps this has something to do with the "4 or 5 months" claim. However, more important is that Elvis's personal physician has written that, according to his view, the singer died of constipation. For reasons of balance, this theory should be mentioned in the article, as other theories are also mentioned there. Wikipedia should summarize what the different sources say, and let the reader decide. Onefortyone (talk) 00:33, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

But he's a biased source. It's a conflict of interest on his part. So you can't put that in the article unless you also point out what other sources have said, that in their opinion this ex-doctor has invented this theory in order to deflect attention from his own possible malpractice. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

It may be your personal opinion that Nichopoulos is a biased source. However, he was Elvis's personal physician for several years. Therefore, what he has written in his recent book is as important as the opinion of the other doctors. If there are any reliable sources supporting your view that he has invented his theory in order to deflect attention from his own possible malpractice, they may also be cited in the article for reasons of balance. Onefortyone (talk) 02:27, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

He was banned from being a doctor, and that's not just my personal opinion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

• Constipation may easily become life-threatening when it causes bowel obstruction. For a recent source, please see David Cline, Latha G. Stead, "ch. 8 - Constipation", Abdominal Emergencies which states, "autopsy studies continue to reveal missed bowel obstruction as an unexpected cause of death". Colonel Warden (talk) 18:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Applying that general theory to Elvis is synthesis, which is not allowed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Trolling?

These are recent:
Onefortyone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.255.164 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
These are just some from around July of 2005, when Onefortyone first became active. In fairness, his Deutschland-based IP is probably dynamic, and his IP contribs tapered off once he got the Onefortyone ID, although they didn't stop, as a look at Elvis' history from August 2005 onward will attest:
80.141.180.80 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.224.148 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.219.115 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.249.174 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.249.159 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.185.190 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.252.136 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.209.41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.249.199 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.175.114 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.241.145 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.245.142 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.197.99 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.234.76 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.248.141 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.209.175 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
80.141.205.108 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A reminder: It is well established that Onefortyone is a troll with a special interest in the naughty bits of Elvis Presley. An unusually clever and maniacally persistent troll, but nothing other than a troll. The evidence that he is a troll is voluminous and stretches back for years. There is no official designation of trollhood on Wikipedia, but we recently came as close as possible: this article was awarded Featured Article status despite Onefortyone's vehement and extensive objections, 90 percent of which were simply dismissed. Such an action is unheard of, except in those rare cases when the objector is an obvious sociopath and/or troll.

We are long past the point where anyone should feel the need to engage this troll in debate. Simply revert his periodic attempts to poison the article. DocKino (talk) 08:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

All you can do is removing my edits and frequently making personal attacks, for instance, falsely claiming that I am a troll. See also [4]. This means that you are the person who violates Wikipedia policy. As has been shown by another editor, you are not earnestly discussing my arguments. See [5]. By the way, what should be wrong with having used a dynamic IP address for some time in the past? The user name I have chosen is even part of this IP. Furthermore, you have also recently used an IP from the New York Public Library, DocKino. Does this mean that you are a troll? Onefortyone (talk) 01:57, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

A timely and apposite reminder Doc... you beat me to it. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 09:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure deletion is appropriate, in that it can fan the flames. Maybe simply not responding is the best solution. I can't think of anything else to say to that guy, so I'll try to stop: The self-serving opinion of that doctor is not eligible for including in the article, and dat's dat. If he tries to add it in defiance of consensus, we'll have to take him to WP:ANI. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:40, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I've added a few links up top. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

His particular obsession early on was the notion that Elvis was gay:[6] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:07, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Think it should be clarified that reverting actual edits is being suggested as an appropriate response, as opposed to deleting stuff on these pages or elsewhere. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 11:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes. So what would be an appropriate generic edit summary for such reversion? I do NOT recommend using "rollback", nor necessarily "undo", as I take this guy as well-intentioned but just dead wrong in his approach. The fact his registered ID is still around after 5 years indicates he's not been taken to the cleaners yet, at least not permanently. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

On the other hand, this item - Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Onefortyone - is of some interest as a possible precedent. However, he would likely beat it to death with the same arguments he's using here. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to pose this at WP:ANI and see what the experts think. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:36, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think a generic edit summary should be a concern; it must be better, and fairer, simply to consider the merits of each edit — whether it's been discussed on these pages, etc. Bad editors can make good edits, after all. It's on the talk pages that we get the real problems, hence we shouldn't be feeding trolls. Many thanks for tackling this issue though: hope something comes from your efforts to clarify what has been a very murky area for too long. Sorry, but I lost the heart to re-involve myself more fully in these matters when I developed a stammer and a facial tic... :) Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 12:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I'm not saying all edits would automatically be banned, like for example if he corrected an obvious spelling error... UNLESS he's banned from the articles. One opinion on ANI is that while he's not currently banned from any articles, the decision is still good, and that he could be RE-banned from Elvis-related articles. It's just a question of who exactly is supposed to do that task. Which hopefully someone at ANI can answer. Meanwhile, a generic edit summary like "No consensus - see talk page" would probably cover it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Just a question. For what specific reason should I be banned from any Wikipedia articles? For adding or discussing well-sourced information some editors do not like, although some other Wikipedians are of the opinion that this well-sourced detail concerning chronic constipation as the possible cause of Elvis's death should be included in the article (see above)? Onefortyone (talk) 02:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

For constant edit-warring. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:03, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

This talk page is poisoned

And I see several editors pointing there angry finger's in the direction of one editor: 141. However, from my perspective, not having studied the article's editing history and previous content conflicts, merely having watched how different editors choose to express their positions and opinions on other users, my impression is that 141 certainly isn't the only problem around here. I would go on to contend that they aren't the biggest problem either. In fact, I'd even be open to the belief that they are right and that a vociferous pack of entrenched editors have assumed ownership of this article and are actively attempting to malign and shut this user out of the would-be consensus-building effort which article editing on Wikipedia is supposed to be. As for 141's behavior in this particular discussion, it has been exemplary as far as I can evaluate. In order to corroborate my opinion I'd like to offer an analysis of the discussion which was initiated by myself in the above section (now containing two additional sub-section) #Uncertainty about actual cause of death:

1. 141 in their first entry ("Several Wikipedians...") references other Wikipedia editors supporting the inclusion of Dr Nichopoulos's theory and also establishes that there exists ample reliable sourcing for this theory.
   • My comment: This is highly relevant and very much in accordance with Wikipedia practice, policies and guidelines which deem that we should base our writing on the existence of reliable sources, and if such outlets have deemed an issue newsworthy or notable, it is not up to Wikipedia editors (not even if they have formed a pack to defend such a position) to reevaluate the notability of primary sources which have been deemed notable in reliable secondary sources. We may clearly comment on their trustworthiness and credibility backed up by other reliable sources (as opposed to our own profuse rhetoric) though, but we should stay short of outright ignoring any widely discussed theories unless there exists such a profusion of wild fringy theories that their inclusion could only serve to clutter the article. Were that the case though, we'd probably already have a separate article, "Conspiracy theories about [subject]".
2. Responding to 141 ("So, a doctor whose license...") DCGeist scornfully marginalizes the authority of Dr Nichopoulos basically asserting he's a self-serving charlatan and that being the end of it.
   • I find the logic of that missing. True, he has had his license revoked. Does that mean he's a notorious liar and incompetent in his examinations and opinions? I don't see that it does. At all. DCGeist asserts that the opinions of Dr Nichopoulos should be discarded unless corroborated by colleagues in better standing than himself. I don't see the necessity for this. Obviously such support would strengthen the likelihood of his claims being true, but as long as we present the reader with the requisite caveats I see no reason, based on DCGeist's arguments, that Dr Nichopoulos' opinion should be excluded.
3. 141 then references such colleagues of Dr Nichopoulos in good standing (albeit not by name) that had been solicited for their opinions on Dr Nichopoulos' constipation theory by Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick. The conclusion of Guralnick certainly appears to give credence to Dr Nichopoulos if he had none before.
   • This is sound reasoning based on facts presented.
4. DCGeist retorts ("In his final years...") by listing how the article mentions Elvis' pathological bowel condition ("an enlarged colon"), then lists the conditions believed to be related to the singer's death according to the article, which do not include his pathological bowel condition. Then the argument for not including it is given as being that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a book.
   • This is completely non-sequiturial arguing. The "Wikipedia is not a book" argument appears to be a variation of the generic "not encyclopedic" argument when used as a guise for WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The best I can do in terms of interpreting DCGeist's opinion when offering this argument is that adding lots of trivia or writing in excruciating detail might be acceptable when writing an exhaustive tome on a subject or a book focusing on only selected aspects of a subject and thus missing the oject of an encyclopedia to make a representative survey of all information pertaining to a subject.
5. Then I make an entry asserting that 141 clearly has a point and that DCGeist falls short of addressing it.
6. Baseball Bugs then makes their first entry ("141's argument is that one guy's word...") by paraphrasing 141's position as being that Dr Nichopoulos' word should be taken over the "preponderance of sources" and DCGeist's as being that Dr Nichopoulos is not a reliable source. Baseball Bugs then concludes that "Elvis 'dying from constipation'" is nonsense which should not be included.
   • This is a fairly accurate representation of DCGeist's position, however it is a misrepresentation of 141's posts. And blatantly so. It is very easy to fight straw men, but it is totally discrediting if one wants to be taken seriously as a debater and as someone acting with intellectual integrity.
7. Baseball Bugs then makes a second post ("Also, according to the...") making the point that according to the constipation article "the worst effect that can happen is hemmorhoids" and then concludes "Hey! Maybe he died from hemmorhoids!".
   • Again, Baseball Bugs resorts to demagoguery and shows themselves as a discussion participant who will not shy away from employing the bag of dirty tricks in order to get rid of a vexing opponent, as opposed to actually refuting their material argument.
8. Then PL290 posts a response to my first post. In it I am informed that this issue has a pre-history with editor 141 consistently "trying to push a minority fringe perspective" for a long time. PL290 then expresses the need for expressing themselves delicately in order to avoid personal attack. They profess no personal animosity towards 141, and then continues to interpret 141's behavior as "surely just a silly game that wastes the time of all the editors trying to build an encyclopedia". PL290 goes on to assert that Elvis' bowel condition is appropriately and adequately discussed in the article, at the same time making their own assessment of Dr Nichopoulos known ("this latest 'news' [...] sourced from the dubious doctor"). The post then eloquently segues ("The painful and longstanding congestion of more immediate concern is the one afflicting this talk page, just as it has done for years.") into a characterization of 141, making an apparently light-hearted hyperbole of their asserted position and aim with contributing to the editing of the article ("Elvis Presley was an unpopular American singer, full of shit, who died on the toilet. The end"). Then they emphasize that this paraphrase is no exaggeration with unspecific reference to the article's archives as well as to the fact that 141 has been disciplined in the past (2006 and 2007) for disruptive editing.
   • Again I cannot comment on anything except what I see in the present. My investigations into the pre-history of this issue will have to be piecemeal achievements, if they should at all occur. Still, my analysis of the behavior and arguments presented by sundry editors in the discussion at hand loses no validity on the lack of an integration with its pre-history. This fact merely needs to be taken into consideration for those who are going to decide on a course of action should such action be requested by the involved parties. Then, back to PL290's entry. Although their use of humor appears innocuous, and is certainly skillfully employed, I still find the tone insidious and that it does contain an attack on 141, which may not primarily be ad hominem in nature but which nonetheless falls completely short of addressing the question of whether or not to include the cause of death theory presented by Dr Nichopoulos. I would also like to point out that in the recent posts from 141 that I have read, I have seen nothing, bar nothing, which could corroborate the claims regarding 141's aims with this article. Perhaps it is time to discuss this issue on the merits of the facts themselves as long as 141 presents themselves in a succinct and reasonable manner and not make perfectly neutral arguments on a new matter get tainted by past history. Obviously this is a classic principle of conflict resolution, but I just thought I'd mention it here for consideration.
9. A post from Jaye9 follows which to large extent consists of a newspaper commentary written in The Daily Telegraph's by a specialist on mental health and substance abuse which basically disagrees with the theory that Elvis died from constipation, and Jaye9 thus thinks the issue at hand is satisfactorily presented in the article currently.
10. Then a new section is established. a sub-section of the original, with the initial post making it clear that its focus is on whether some material currently in the article based on statements by Dr Nichopoulos. This entry, written by Rikstar is based on agreement with DCGeist's discarding of Dr Nichopoulos as an applicable source to be referenced in the article (made in numbered point 2 above). Rikstar also adds to DCGeist's opinion his own that Dr Nichopoulos' statement from 1990 that Elvis was "probably also suffering from degenerative arthritis, fueling his addiction to painkillers" could be seen as self-serving. Rikstar then requests comments on his thought on this being the case.
    • I assume that Rikstar by self-serving means that it could be made in an attempt by Dr Nichopoulos to clear himself of allegations of wring-doing or negligence. With regards to the subject of this post Rikstar's post is unproblematic.
11. 141 responds to Rikstar, and by reference also to DCGeist who made the initial critical characterization of Dr Nichopoulos. 141 makes a rundown of Dr Nichopoulos medical training and his involvement with Elvis as his physician and subsequently in the autopsy and later three investigations into the cause of Elvis' death. Some significant findings in these procedings are also presented. This is somewhat, but not overly, lengthy, but succinct and readily accessible. 141 concludes: "That Elvis 'succumbed, on the toilet, to chronic constipation' sounds as reasonable as any other theory about the singer’s death". 141 also makes the personal comment: "I do not understand why some Wikipedians think that this book is not a reliable source."

    Indeed, what 141 writes makes good sense to me. I am not in a position to be able to catch 141 in blatantly making up facts in his rundown, but based on the premises this argument appears soundly to support the conclusion. I must also concur with 141 about why other editors have a hard time accepting "this book". Obviously admitting it as applicable as a source for this article does not clear it or its author of any criticism, it merely concedes to the fact that this is a relevant voice that should be presented along with other sources which meet a set minimum standard. Curiously, there are NO REPLIES to this post.

12. DocKino responding to Rikstar ostentatiously ignores the topic of the entire thread making an appeal to editors to abstain from further discussion.
    • Based on the conduct of editors in the above posts, 141 in particular who is the apparent source of DocKino's reaction, I do not find this to be a rational initiative. I find it disruptive.
13. PL290 gives kudos to DocKino and says they're going to be sick and asks for directions to the nearest toilet.
    • I find this post highly revealing as to the true attitude of PL290 towards other editors, and it clearly belies their initial gesture of assuming good faith towards 141. I used the term insidious in a previous bullet point characterizing PL290's style of writing and way of expressing their true feelings. Here I'll add to that coy and sly.
14. Baseball Bugs adds to PL290's post "141's singular obsession with this topic reminds me of the school principal in National Lampoon's High School Yearbook Parody".
    • As I have no knowledge of this reference I cannot comment specifically. It does however appear that a group effort is building to make a mockery of any earnest attempts at discussing the substantive issue raised by two editors (myself and Rikstar). DocKing, PL290 and finally Baseball Bugs placing the scoring hit. Slam dunk. All hands high five. I find this sort of pack behavior utterly deplorable.
15. 141 takes issue with the disruptive display from the three mentioned users pointing to my previous post which makes this point. 141 states that "Their attitude clearly violates Wikipedia policy".
    • I have nothing to add to that. From what I can observe, 141 is being abused through malicious gang editing employing the most despicable means.
16. Baseball Bugs responds "You don't die from constipation. End of story.#
    • Again, Baseball Bugs shows behavior that others ought to have reacted to. It is detrimental to Wikipedia that such behavior is tolerated and condoned when it ought to have been brusquely reprimended.
17. 141, maintaining focus (and composure), points to the fact that there are several physicians, not only Dr Nichopoulos who share a differing opinion.
    • Again, clear and to the point in the face of raucous provocations from several editors.
18. Baseball Bugs asserts that "Technically, right now that guy's no more a doctor than I am." Baseball Bugs states that Dr Nichopoulos' case might be bolstered if it could be found "any other humans in history that died from constipation".
    • As Baseball Bugs' be-all and end-all to the possibility of constipation as a contributing cause of death (I haven't seen anyone asserting the only) seems to be the Wikipedia article on constipation it seems prudent (although it should not be necessary) to point out that our own articles are disallowed as sources for each other for a good reason. Need I spell out what that reason is?
19. 141 retorts ("Nichopoulos earned his B.S. degree ...") with relevant fact to support the constipation theory. This included the assertion that other physicians have supported him.
    • I don't know to which extent it has been documented that other doctors do support him. I've seen no names mentioned, but then again, if this was a real discussion other editors would surely call out if this is incorrect.
20. Baseball Bugs asserts that "There's obviously a good reason he's no longer a doctor." They then go on to restate their previous post that constipation cannot be a cause of death.
    • I have already commented on the second part. As for the first it's only an innuendo and needs no further commenting.
21. 141 gives three referenced examples of people who have died from constipation, two of the references being medical publications.
    • Very good.
22. Baseball Bugs wants to know in which years these deaths occurred.
23. 141 responds and adds a fourth example. this also from a medical publication.
    • Also very good.
24. I shall quote Baseball Bugs' response because I think it is priceless:

    You seem to have studied this a great deal. I don't want to know why. But I wouldn't consider something from the 19th century to be necessarily valid. And I wonder if there are any since 1966. More to the point, how can constipation kill? It doesn't make sense.

• Having been utterly defeated the only response Baseball Bugs is able to provide is a confused "It doesn't make sense". Well, perhaps that has taught you a lesson about not being so cocksure and arrogant towards other people

25. Ever so gently 141 patiently responds to Baseball Bugs' question also providing government statistics and a gratuitous theory on the extinction of the dinosaurs
• No gloating. None whatsoever. Just the facts, ma'am.
26. Baseball Bugs wants to know the reason for discrepant timeframes and the effect of toxins in the presented information specifically with reference to the commentary in The Daily Telegraph by Mr Brown.
• This was what it took to establish a serious dialog on the actual issue, no less. I would say this is comparable to someone banging you on the head with a blunt object in order to get your attention. It oughtn't be that difficult.
27. 141 cannot give answers to Baseball Bugs' questions, not being a physician but offers some thought. 141 however restates that point is that constipation as a cause of death has been put forward by Elvis's personal physician and should be included in the article on that merit along with other theories that already are included.
• Sounds quite reasonable.
28. Baseball Bugs contends that a) Dr Nichopoulos is a biased source and that b) it's a conflict of interest on his part and that his theory cannot be included into the article without at the same time including the views of his detractors who believe he "has invented this theory in order to deflect attention from his own possible malpractice".
• That's presently the end of the first subsection. I think it points towards a solution that 141 would agree with. On the other hand, others may join in and restart the battle. One such attempt could possibly be seen in the second sub-section.
29. Opening up a second sub-section DocKino starts up with the ominous {{user}} templates, first reminding everyone that "It is well established that Onefortyone is a troll with a special interest in the naughty bits of Elvis Presley. An unusually clever and maniacally persistent troll, but nothing other than a troll. The evidence that he is a troll is voluminous and stretches back for years." DocKing admits the problematic application of using a term which is not formally defined. Then DocKing points to the fact that the article has received Featured Article status against 141 vehement opposition and this connection could be deemed sufficient to justify that 141 is a troll. DocKino mentions that only 10% of 141's objections were taken into account. DocKing then asserts that "[s]uch an action is unheard of, except in those rare cases when the objector is an obvious sociopath and/or troll." And then states that "We are long past the point where anyone should feel the need to engage this troll in debate". DocKing then encourages other editors to summarily revert 141's edits to the article.
• To me who hasn't seen the beginning of this this is very strong language. If there is merit to what DocKing writes it is terribly unfortunate that 141 in the present discussion has presetned themselves nothing but exemplary when it comes to adhering to netiquette as well as being to the point and factual concise with regards to the subject matter at hand. I should also point out that none of 141's detractors has accused them of presenting false bits of information, although the information wheich has been presented (in some cases obviously dug up) by 141 has been voluminous and detailed. I am surprised by the reference to the recent successful FA process. If 141 had any objections that were taken into account, this does seem to suggest, if nothing else, that this individual is not a troll. I would thus conclude to the opposite of DocKing which takes this to supprt the contention that 141 should be regarded as, and treated as, a troll.
30. Rikstar adds a supportive response to DocKing's initative stating that they were going to make the same initative.
31. Baseball Bugs has no objection to the notion that 141 should be seen as a troll but questions whether it would serve the article better simply to ignore 141's initatives as deleting (reverting) could "fan the flames". Not surprisingly Baseball Bugs appears to rescind at what could be seen as an invitation to a compromise in their conclusive post in the sub-section above writing that "The self-serving opinion of that doctor is not eligible for including in the article, and dat's dat."
• Personally I saw this u-turn coming and with it assuredly a complete ignore of how the user was completely demolished in the discussion in the previous sub-section were 141's tempered ripostes and adherence to civility and the facts utterly prevailed.

And just to reiterate. I have done an analysis of one section and its two subsections, and that's it. If these impressions significantly contrast previous experiences of behavior of the mentioned parties, then that would have to be taken into account by those who should wish to act on it. I have however witnessed some behavior which I have characterized as utterly deplorable. Indeed I would find censure against several of the editors who claim to represent the consensus segment of editors for this article appropriate. And I also cannot free myself of acknowledging the similarities I have witnessed on the discussion pages of other articles where controversy has been rampant, namely that the party which assert to represent consensus are fighting other editors labeling them disruptive and trolls and using strong arm methods such as what are known as master suppression techniques. Instinctively this makes me tentatively believe that the "trolls" are in fact the level-headed and sane editors of these articles wanting to present perspectives that for a number of reason may be uncomfortable, politically incorrect or ultimately compromising to vested interest groups, even if they are true. Whether or not that is the case here, others who find interest in making more than a brief stopover at this article and its talk page must find out for themselves. __meco (talk) 15:56, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

It's astonishing that you would go to these lengths, yet not bother to spend any time at all examining Onefortyone's track record of trolling, which stretches back years and includes blatant misrepresentation of sources and deliberately falsified citations. Suit yourself. DocKino (talk) 16:41, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

We all have different fortes. I'm not good at what you suggest. As I also explained above, I'm not really that interested in the topic to be willing to invest prolonged time here. What I could do is an analysis with a limited perspective, including the caveats I have mentioned as well. You can use it as a tool to assist you in cleaning up working conditions for all editors who care more deeply about this article and the related subjects than I do. I see editors who have gotten themselves into a cul-de-sac and I do this. I hope you all succeed in untangling yourselves. __meco (talk) 20:56, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

And Meco, I hope you succeed in getting "good at what DocKino suggests", i.e., finding out the facts before assembling an incredible array of information and then stating, "of course, I don't know the full story". Best wishes for your progress with that. You have badly missed the point here. PL290 (talk) 21:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I'll be filing it under TLDR. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

These comments by DocKino, PL290 and Baseball Bugs clearly show that these users are not willing to earnestly discuss the questions raised above. Onefortyone (talk) 02:34, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

You're on the verge of being indef'd. I suggest you focus on that issue. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:51, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

This talk page is poisoned alright. For years it's been plagued by ever-so politely and patiently put forward suggestions of 141, that Presley was bi/homosexual; that he had a sexual relationship with actor Nick Adams - and perhaps with some of the members of the suspiciously cosy Memphis Mafia; that Elvis was given a blow job by a man in the 1950's: that because he slept in the same bed as his mother as a child they must have had sex together, and more besides. And more recently, we have the suggestion that Presley masturbated himself to death. Some of these claims have been put forward so incessantly, despite ignoring them, reasonable objections, consensus, requests to desist, etc.

If user Meco had been involved just a fraction of time that I've been - having to respond to this unremitting stream of egregious submissions, I suspect they'd have been slightly less inclined to dissect some of the recent posts here in 141's favor. They might also have concluded that there's a pattern here, a disturbing pattern that points to the said editor being more interested in disrupting these pages than improving the article (would that qualify as a troll?). They might also understand how difficult it is to keep responding perfectly according to all those rules of netiquette; 141 has an arsenal of ways of pushing editors to their breaking points, but, it's OK, because 141's individual posts are SO polite and patiently detailed - a classic example of his defenders not seeing the wood because of all those trees. But hey, if Meco or anyone else wants to pore over the details of our indiscretions, then please slap our wrists for being naughty. But PLEASE — don't ignore the elephant trampling us all in the room while we become increasingly desperate as we protest. 141 is playing Wikipedia and some of it's editors like a fiddle, and now once again, we're all agog at yet another waste of time instigated by, and I no doubt hugely enjoyed by, one particular editor. It stinks. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 16:21, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clarification

To prevent further misunderstandings, I have made the above clarification. I have added the same box to the talk page header, to ensure the clarification remains after eventual archiving of the related conversations. EDIT: I've also now wikfied Questions over cause of death in the box above and in the talk page header, to explicate that that's the section of this article dealing with the topic. PL290 (talk) 07:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice job. I can see it's a nice job, and I've just unhid those threads in the talk page and checked them out. But oh dear, 141 is seriously claiming at WP:ANI#Onefortyone that the same threads are no longer part of the talk page, like they've been deleted. Heaven help us all... Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 23:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice job? Sorry, the so-called "clarification" falsely claims that there was a kind of "consensus among regular editors … that the discredited doctor's opinions, such as those published in his 2010 book, and including his attempt to emphasize constipation as the likely cause of death, should not be propagated by Wikipedia." Other users such as 24.61.236.106 (who detected the source), Onefortyone, Meco and Colonel Warden are of a different opinion. Furthermore, the threads including the discussion are no longer visible on this talk page and some links leading to the original threads do not work any more. I would call this manipulating the Elvis talk page in order to promote a personal agenda. Onefortyone (talk) 02:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

That's "regular editors..." Apart from your good self, 24.61.236.106, Meco and Colonel Warden are not regular editors, so the claim is not false. Furthermore, the threads are in this talk page. Can't you click on the [show] link? I'm reluctantly engaging in this response simply to spell out to others just how you operate when trying to defend yourself. It isn't pretty, and to my mind does you no favours regarding current proceedings against you. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 04:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Please 141, stop being so flippant

Upon reading Wikipedia: Admimistrator's noticeboard/Incidents, Statement by Onefortyone: You state: "Wilkes was banned from Wikipedia by arbcon decison and more recent publications by respected Elvis biographers Alanna Nash and Kathlean Tracy seem to support the claim of bisexuality". I havn't read Kathlean Tracy's book 141, but have just finished reading Alanna Nash's book. "Baby Let's Play House". I don't know where you got you information from or care for that matter, but what she states in her recent book, seems to conflick with you ideals. Here's what she had to say: "Deke's mascared eyeliner lent Elvis's character an air of gay desire, but no stories of homosexual dalliance or acting out ever surfaced about Elvis himself. In Hollywood, he invarible worked with actors, stagehands, and dancers who were gay, and when hed' had to be carried or lifted up overhead, occasionally one of them groped him. He didn't spark his temper either. Mostly he checkled." Source: "Baby Let's Play House p. 214

"Whether, Gladys introduced him to makeup ("You're the prettiest thing o the face of the earth - put a little eye color on") Elvis wasn't homosexual. His testosteroun levels, coupled with his groundings in the importance of the southern male, never tempted him to act out sexually with another man". p.24 Source: "Baby Let's Play House"

Let me say a couple of things to the above: In no way do I wish to offend any reader who is homosexual or bisexual, quite the opposite actually, as my sister is gay and on of my closest friends is bisexual. Please, do not use this term, as a means to belittle someone, that's all. All I ask is to take the time and read books, instead of of resorting to the quick way and taking information purely from the internet alone.--Jaye9 (talk) 11:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

As you are the person who brings this topic up again on this talk page, Jaye9, here are some sources supporting the view that Elvis may have been bisexual:

In a Playboy article of November 2005, Colonel Parker’s assistant, Byron Raphael, and biographer Alanna Nash write that Elvis’s friend, actor Nick Adams, may have "swung both ways" like "Adams' good pal (and Elvis' idol) James Dean. Tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on."

According to Alanna Nash's Baby, Let's Play House (2010), one of Presley's most bizarre relationships involved Adams and Natalie Wood. "When Nick took Elvis to a hotel in Malibu where Natalie was spending the weekend with her bisexual boyfriend, actor Scott Marlowe, Natalie got along well with Elvis - and Marlowe was soon out of the equation," says the source. "Nick, who was also rumored to be bisexual, Natalie and Elvis became a hot threesome, having a lot of fun together."

In her Elvis biography, Kathleen Tracy writes that Adams was Elvis's regular friend and often met the singer backstage or at Graceland. "He and Elvis would go motorcycle riding late at night and stay up until all hours talking about the pain of celebrity." Both men also enjoyed prescription drugs, and Elvis often asked Adams "to stay over on nights." The author adds that it "has since been speculated in Hollywood gossip that Presley and Adams may have shared some sort of intimate encounter." However, she also admits that, according to her view, "there's no definitive evidence one way or another."

However, the most detailed account of the supposed sexual relationship between Adams and Elvis is to be found in Hollywood Babylon, It's Back (2008). In this book, Hollywood celebrity biographer Darwin Porter and former New York Times reporter Danforth Prince write that Elvis wanted to hang out with Nick Adams. Within a week, gay actor Sal Mineo said, "Nick told me, he and Elvis were having oral sex and mutual masturbation." The authors further reveal that, when Presley and Adams shared hotel suites, the singer insisted that Nick walk around in a pair of tight-fitting white jockey shorts, arranged so his pubic hairs would peep out, and he confessed to Nick that this was his ultimate turn-on. The book also says that, whenever Adams flew to Graceland, he brought a stash of gay pornography in order to use it as a stimulus for masturbation.

According to Albert Goldman, Elvis looked like "a homosexual in drag" and may have been "a latent or active homosexual." In his view, the singer's alleged promiscuity masked latent homosexuality. "What Elvis projected through his epoch-making act," the author writes, "was not just the enormous sexual excitement of puberty but its androgynous quality. Much of Elvis' power over young girls came not just from the act that he embodied their erotic fantasies but that he likewise projected frankly feminine traits with which they could identify. ... When you dig down to the sexual roots of an Elvis Presley, you sense a profound sexual ambivalence."

Not to worry, however, you can be certain that I do not intend to include this material in the Elvis Presley article. In order to calm down the recent emotions, I would like to have a personal break from editing Wikipedia for some weeks. So during the next weeks the fans may add to the Elvis article several details that stress the megastar image of the singer, if they will be allowed to do so by PL209, DocKino and Rikstar. Onefortyone (talk) 19:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

My immediate reaction is that these sources combined would suffice to justify including into the article that some of Elvis' acquaintances and friends have provided information to suggest that Elvis was bisexual. __meco (talk) 19:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I have seen equally good sources that Elvis didn't die, he just went back to his home planet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Meco, it looks mostly like a hotch-potch of different gossip to me; there's a difference between "sources combined" all agreeing on specific facts, and a synthesis of ideas from different sources. The latter would constitute original research. If you think otherwise, though, I suggest proposing some wording here for the regulars to consider, showing the citations to be used. Too bad 141 won't be able to contribute to the discussion, since he terminated a conversation at AN/I by announcing a month-long break around 30 hrs ago now. :) PL290 (talk) 20:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

What has caused me to stay here a bit longer has primarily been one thing: your recent massive "refactoring" of this talk page which is against Wikipedia policy. However, you can be certain that I won’t include any additional content in the Elvis article. Onefortyone (talk) 12:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I was merely pointing out to you 141, that you on occassions tend to fabricate the truth somewhat.

In her book, which of have recently read, Alanna Nash, at no time ever states that Presley had ever been bisexual or homosexual, quite the opposite in fact and her use of the word threesome, was not meant in the sexual content. As we see above you at times have a somewhat tabliod mentality. As far as your last statement goes, when you say: "So during the next weeks the fans may add to the Elvis article several details that stress the megastar image of the singer, if they will be allowed to do so PL209, DocKino and Rikstar."

All I can say is that it was an unessary snide remark on you behalf, but atleast these threee editors do try to stick to protocal.

To Meco, I have never read at any time, any acquaitances or friends state that Elvis was bisexual. May I politely suggest that you go out and buy yourself some good reliable Elvis books, say for starters, "Last Train To Memphis" & "Careless Love" both by Peter Guralnick and "Revelations by the Memphis Mafia" by Alanna Nash. Sorry, but you clearly don't know what you talking about, in regard to all things Elvis.--Jaye9 (talk) 21:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record, I do not "fabricate the truth somewhat", as you have claimed above, Jaye9. In her book, Baby Let's Play House, Alanna Nash indeed says that Elvis, according to her view, wasn’t homosexual. However, does she explicitly say that he wasn’t bisexual? According to my reading, the expression "hot threesome" was certainly meant in a sexual context, as in the same sentence it is mentioned that Elvis’s friend Nick Adams was rumored to be bisexual. Be that as it may, in the Playboy article published 4 years earlier Nash has written about Adams's sexual relationships that he may have "swung both ways" like his "good pal (and Elvis' idol) James Dean" and that "tongues wagged that Elvis and Adams were getting it on." Furthermore, Jaye9, you said that you "have never read at any time, any acquaintances or friends state that Elvis was bisexual." Bill Dakota, author of Hollywood star magazines of the 1970s, who, in the 1960s, worked as Nick Adams’s fan mail secretary for a period of time, was acquainted with Elvis. He claims that Elvis was bisexual and that Adams and Elvis were closet lovers. See [7], [8]. However, tabloid magazines and websites such as these cannot be used as reliable sources for Wikipedia articles, and I do not want to go into more details concerning the said topic. You are the person who brought this topic up again. Onefortyone (talk) 02:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Now I must admit, I was just about to respond with...But then I read your closing bit, about tabliod magazines and the like. I couldn't agree with you more, let's go one better and keep this trash out of Talk Page as well. Enjoy your break!--Jaye9 (talk) 05:08, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Refactoring is not meant for censoring

Will the person who kindly refactored the thread This talk page is poisoned into oblivion kindly and immediately "refactor" it back into existence. __meco (talk) 07:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

It's still on this page, it's just collapsed, along with several other discussions. You've been here 3 or 4 years, yet you seem to know very little. I'm starting to wonder about your competence level. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Several threads are no longer directly visible on the talk page. According to Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages, "Refactoring should only be done when there is an assumption of good faith by editors who have contributed to the talk page. If there are recent heated discussions on the talk page, good faith may be lacking. If another editor objects to refactoring then the changes should be reverted." This is a very clear statement. As for the current dispute, at least two editors who have extensively contributed to the talk page, Onefortyone and Meco, object to the changes being made by user PL290. Onefortyone (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Having scrolled across this page three times now I cannot see the collapsed section. Where is it? __meco (talk) 12:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Here,[9] just under the big yellow box about 3/4 of the way down the page. Click where it says "[show]" on the right-hand side. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Wow! So you think people are going to find and notice what's in there? Hardly! Which was probably the exact motivation for making it so utterly inaccessible. I have seen collapsed sections and templates for such before, but this contraption is ridiculous. __meco (talk) 13:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I found it right away. The big yellow sign helps. Boxing up stuff that's basically an endless loop is standard procedure. You've been here like 4 or 5 years and you don't know that? You're aiding and abetting 141's trolling behavior. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:51, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure you find it quite apt and sufficient for its purpose. I have reported PL290 at WP:ANI. __meco (talk) 14:12, 25 May 2010 (UTC) (updated link to target archived discussion. __meco (talk) 22:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC))

...and PL290's actions were deemed perfectly acceptable by disinterested parties at WP:ANI. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 12:16, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

A possible compromise?

The ex-doctor's self-serving opinion on Elvis' death could be considered for the article, provided it's balanced with sources making the ex-doctor's checkered situation crystal clear, so that the readers won't place undue weight on the ex-doctor's opinion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:23, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I've just read parts of Dr Nick's book, only flicking through it, and he actually says that he believes Elvis died of valsalva maneuver. (P.137)

I haven't found any evidence in the book to suggest that Dr Nick believes Elvis died of constipation. Indeed, there is no mention at all of "constipation", or "constipated" (A quick google book search proves this). He does say that Elvis should have had surgery on his colon, and that his colon was three times the size of a regular colon, and that there was evidence of a clogged colon, but at no time does he suggest any of that caused the death. The only time he does mention it is when he says this exact line.... "We [Dr Nick & Dan Warlick] believe Elvis died from a normal physiological event brought into play called "Valsalva maneuver. "This Valsalva maneuver caused the heart to stop when the body strained."

With this information being made available to myself for the first time, and no doubt to many other editors, I don't agree that "constipation" should be seriously considered as a cause of death. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 14:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I myself havn't read Dr. Nick's book as yet, but in saying that, I have read the interview that EIN had with the Doctor, about his book. In part of that interview, Dr. Nick points out his frustration with the media and how he has been misquoted by the media before. As user: EF has pointed out by viewing his book, had found no edidence in the book to suggest that Dr. Nick believes Elvis died of constipation. Could it be that the Doctor has been misquoted by the media, yet again? It appears that way. So for this reason and I say this for myself also, it is imperative that we as editors of this article, should not take the media on face value alone. We have got to read the books. Particularly when concerning someone like Elvis Presley.--Jaye9 (talk) 22:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

The issue you could run into is different editors interpreting the book different ways. But if what the editor EF says is correct, then this entire so-called theory is rendered pretty much irrelevant. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Couldn't agree with you more Baseball Bugs.--Jaye9 (talk) 23:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

According to his own words, ElvisFan1981 "just read parts of Dr Nick's book, only flicking through it." Could it be that there are different theories to be found in the book? The media are primarily talking of "constipation," citing some quotations from the book. See [10], [11], [12]. Onefortyone (talk) 23:09, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like you need to read the book yourself. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:15, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

It should indeed be read very carefully. Here is another source. As early as 1980, Robert Lawrence Holt wrote, "Dr. George Nichopoulos, Elvis Presley's private physician, revealed that his patient had suffered from chronic constipation and further stated, 'I felt it probably related to a long history of laxative abuse.' " See Hemorrhoids: A Cure and Preventive, p.116. Onefortyone (talk) 23:35, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't mean he died from it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:43, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

In the EIN interview mentioned above by Jaye9, Nichopoulos says, among other things, that his "concerns were basically for his (Elvis's) colon problems." He is also talking about "Intestinal problems basically from a diseased colon" and he concludes by saying, "Elvis’s death could not have been prevented in 1977. As one of the specialists we interviewed for my book put it, 'He was a walking time bomb.' Nowadays there is a procedure that can correct a colon condition like Elvis’s. I hope when people who suffer as he did read this book, they will realize they don’t have to live with the condition and will get help. That possibility is one big reason I wanted my book written." Onefortyone (talk) 00:10, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

You're excerpting. Where does he say specifically that colon problems caused Elvis' death? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:31, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Could it be that Nichopoulos is of the opinion that Elvis’s long-standing colon condition was responsible for his straining at stool at the time of his death and "Valsalva maneuver" caused the heart to stop when the body strained? This would make sense. Onefortyone (talk) 00:41, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

First, if you have to ask what he's saying, the answer to that is "original research". In any case, that's like saying running killed Jim Fixx. He had a heart attack while running. It was the heart attack that killed him. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:09, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Pausing for a brief, and happy, public service announcement: No trolls or vandals have tried to mess with the article in over 2 days! DocKino (talk) 01:03, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Or the playing with words. When I read that interview with Dr. Nick and EIN, at no time did the doctor state, that constipation killed Elvis. What he is saying, is he believes that constipation,attributed to Elvis's heart failure. The botton line is that Elvis's heart gave way, that is what killed Elvis. The doctor has also stated, that he also believes that if Elvis had the operation on his colon, of which he states Elvis didn't want to have done, the doctor believes that Elvis would still be alive today. All very nice in theory. What about Elvis's drug addiction?. In the end, it was his heart that gave way, that's what killed Elvis. An article such as Wikipedia, should leave out, the could of, would of, should of theories. We don't have the room for it. --Jaye9 (talk) 01:36, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Naturally, as you would expect from a book that sets out to explore how Elvis died and to remove guilt from one man, there are a number of theories discussed including drug abuse, suicide, murder, and diseases inherited from his mother. However, each one of them is thrown aside by experts who either did the autopsy on Elvis or who have had access to the results of the autopsy on Elvis.

So it begs the question; how does Dr Nick think Elvis died? And more importantly, is there anyone who agrees with him? Well, in a little more detail, here is the exact paragraph in whole.

After reviewing my personal autopsy notes, I settled on what I considered the most plausible theory of Elvis's death, one on which Dan Warlick and I agree. Because Warlick was the investigator for the coroner's office and also examined Elvis's body at autopsy, I had the highest regard for his opinion. We believe Elvis died from a normal physiological event brought inot play called "Valsalva maneuver." This valsalva maneuver caused the heart to stop when the body strained.

So, it's clear to me that Dr Nick doesn't state that Elvis died from constipation, his theory is supported not only by another person, but another person who actually examined Elvis's body at the autopsy. In a court of law the official cause of death would therefore be listed as valsalva maneuver, not constipation. Did the media take the talk about Elvis's colon and blow it out of all proportion for effect? Unsurprisingly, yes. Oh, and it's also important to note that at the very end of the book Dr Nick still states that he believes Elvis died of valsalva maneuver, so it's very clear to me that he believes that is the most plausible cause of death, not constipation. Admit it 141, you don't have enough evidence to argue against this, regardless of how many news outlets and blogsites misquote or misinterpret Dr Nick and his book. Why don't you go out and buy a book instead of relying on Fox News and Billy The Blogger whose only interests are financial? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 06:29, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

If we are going to present the theory of the Valsalva maneuver as a possible trigger of a heart attack without discussing the upstream argument why Elvis would employ the Valsalva maneuver (perhaps particularly forcefully) we will run into another problem. The Valsalva maneuver Wikipedia article currently does not discuss the relation between this maneuver and constipation, in fact it mentions it only tangentially (it has discussed the relationship in the past but that has been removed). Being a nurse myself I have been firmly taught that this relation is very real, and I had never before seen it being questioned before I read some discussion on that talk page, particularly statements made by a physician editor back in 2005. I have asked this editor (who was last active about half a year ago) to clarify their position. As that article currently reads, however, no matter how we introduce any mention of the Valsalva maneuver into this article that is liable to cause some confusion on the part of those readers who also read that article and try to make sense of the information. __meco (talk) 08:38, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

He died from a heart attack. Heart attacks can be triggered by any number of things, generally by overexertion. If it hadn't happened that particular day, it might have happened the next day when Elvis was sprinting too quickly towards his favorite greasy spoon. If you want to get into the gory details of his overexertion, that's one thing. But he died from a heart attack. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:28, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Appreciate your comments Meco, being that you are a nurse and with that, would have medical knowledge. But in saying that, you know what got to me the most, about this whole discussion, on what may or not have aided to Presley's demise. Is what User: 141 stated, when he said: "Perhaps it was exsessive masturbation, that caused Elvis to have a heart attack." Something to that effect. It is well documented in many reliable books on Elvis, that he was impotent in the last year or so, of his life. Now for an editor, who apparently comes across as seemingly intelligent, would say something like that. Now that's what I call confusing. Your the nurse, you explain it to me. Oh and while your there, it may pay you to look up amazon and do some reading, on what that book was about. In my opinion, hardly what you'd call porno material, by any stretch of the imagination.--Jaye9 (talk) 11:08, 1 June 2010 (UTC)