Talk:Asian fetish

This article was nominated for deletion on December 25, 2005. The result of the discussion was KEEP (closed early). An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

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New definition

As I suggested that I would earlier, I tried to take a stab at a new definition for Asian fetish according to the discussion so far. Key points:

Main point: trying to make a distinction between attraction and fetishism -- suggestion that fetishism is strongly tied to inability to be with a non-Asian woman.
Seems that everybody thinks the term is important enough that it can safely be upgraded from "slang" to "colloquialism."
Kept the "attraction" part, parenthesized "obsession" -- might want it the other way around, or even, to delete one or the other. Seems like both should be there, parenthesizing the latter was the more conservative option.
Keeping both Taiwanese and Chinese in the expansion on East Asian. Seems there's enough cultural differences to warrant it.

Those are all the notes that I have. Let's see some comments. --Wzhao553 07:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I like the new definition less. I find it POV by describing only the most radical form of the phenomenon -- a man who can only find sexual attraction with an Asian must surely represent a small minority. Especially considering that there are many white men who would say "yeah, I have an Asian fetish" but only mean that they like Asian features.

What would you think about something like this --

--

"Asian fetish", also called "yellow fever", is a colloquialism which generally describes the attraction that many white men have for Asian women (particularly East Asian women). While often applied humorously or non-seriously, it describes a wide range of phenomena -- from a seemingly innocuous attraction to Asian physical features to an intense attraction to perceived Asian cultural features, which can involve racism and stereotyping -- and both the term and the underlying phenonema it describes generate intense controversy, with many Asians in the West experiencing it as another expression of the racism they have grow up with.

--

Since I just wrote that off the top of my head and it's late I'm sure that could be much better written. But I think it is a good way to ease into a controversial topic without inflammatory language like obsession or "impossible to form healthy, meaningful relationships". Yes, that is one aspect of the 'fetish' but I think it is vital to acknowledge from the outset that the term describes a wide variety of behavior and that the definition at the top should not single out any one of them. Also, I'd like to think that is a paragraph which would pique the interest of the Average Reader without feeling confrontational.ThreeAnswers 08:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there have been repeated calls from many, many users -- of all POV's -- for a sharp distinction made between "Asian attraction" and "Asian fetish" at the very beginning of the article. It seems that most people don't want "fetishism" to cover "innocuous attraction," but instead to be defined as something "bad." (Of course, as I said earlier, Asian fetish shouldn't be considered deviant behavior, so how "bad" is the real matter of controversy.) So it seems "fetishism" should stay closer to a qualified form of "obsession" than to "attraction."

Actually, for the record, the most radical POV would be that Asian fetish refers to a situation where a white male can obtain sexual gratification from all and only Asian females, i.e., any Asian will do, but only Asians will do. A little less radical would be to say that Asian fetish means that any Asian will do, but not necessarily only Asians. Another step down is what I've suggested, only Asians will do, but not necessarily any Asian.

Also, it's a valid point that the term is often used humorously and not seriously, but that's probably better placed in the discussion section. As an analogue, "nigger" can also often used humorously, but one wouldn't dream of including that in its definition. Given the number of comparisons that have been made between "Asian fetish" and "nigger," it's important to keep that in mind. --Wzhao553 22:13, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Another bit of expansion on terminology for the top of the article. --Wzhao553 23:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the introduction of nigger does note that 'nigga' is slang among young American blacks. Considering that they are both very controversial terms, there's no reason that the introduction to Asian fetish can't also be more than one paragraph and give a brief overview of other points of view.ThreeAnswers 23:47, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, hm, maybe I should have read your recent edits before opening my fool mouth. Actually I mostly like how the intro is now. I still think, though, that the first paragraph should be moderated.ThreeAnswers

Embedding Pictures

I'd like to embed a couple of pictures into the article. Is this possible? Can I use standard html code to do this? For example, on the Asian Manhood section of the article, I'd like to have this cartoon displayed right beneath it that I think humorously demonstrates the point that section is trying to make:

http://www.imdiversity.com/Villages/Asian/Secret_Asian_Man/strips/SAMHollywoodThanks2.asp

I'm sure the other sections could be visually improved with some appropriate pictures as well that would serve as a visual confirmation of the concepts discussed in the article. OneViewHere 21:20, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You will have to obtain permission from the copyright holder and then upload the image. After that you can link to it as you would to an article, but it would be best to learn how to position it on the page rather than sticking it in. Try this page.--ThreeAnswers 04:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. That link explains everything. After reading through it, it may be easier to just link to the image rather than try to obtain copyright permission from the owners. I do think though that the article would benefit from having a few well placed images in it that visually represent the stereotypes that this article addresses. After all, the concept of Asian Fetish is all about imagery and the conclusions and stereotypes that have been derived from that imagery over the years.OneViewHere 19:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed there's no article on Secret Asian Man. Why not write the article yourself and put the image there? As it is I think there is too much material in the Asian Fetish article that really deserves to have its own article. Asian American contemporary issues, for example, just as there is African American contemporary issues. As far as I can tell there is no such article but there really should be.--ThreeAnswers 19:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's a really good idea. I moved "Model minority myth" to its own article, because after thinking about it for quite a while, I could not for the life of me figure out how it was related to Asian fetish. --Wzhao553 05:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's a page for Model minority already. What I'd like to see is an article that can touch on that (linking to it to avoid redundancy) and have an in-depth discussion of stuff that this article has, like the sections on Asian-American manhood/womanhood. I do see that as germane to a discussion of Asian Fetish but it shouldn't dominate the article and go off on tangents the way it does. This article isn't the place to refute the stereotype of Asian men being short, but the article I'm thinking of would be.

This way we can touch on those issues and explain their relevance to the Asian Fetish theory, without launching into an extended tangent that will confuse the average reader. Also I noticed that someone added back the sections you took out, so I hope he contributes to this talk discussion.--ThreeAnswers 05:55, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the News

Link: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/09/MNGM2GKMFT43.DTL

Sounds to me like another prime example that should be included under the "social consequences" section. OneViewHere 22:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, nevermind, I see that the original article already references this incident. It is an updated account of the sentencing though....OneViewHere 22:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Also removed text of article to save some space. --Wzhao553 04:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From the criticisms section

"There are serious claims that Asian women (e.g. belonging to the Nesid race from the Philippines)are the most pedomorphous of the about 40 races, i.e. more childlike both in physique and in character (e.g. stated in the Knußmann anthropological manual, 4. rev.ed. 1996,Fischer Verlag, Stuttgart).As very masculine men are said to be attracted by very feminine women this could explain some Caucasian men's asiaphilia."

This is actually very interesting material. However, I don't understand why this would explain some Caucasian men's Asiaphilia. If anything, it would seem to provide a possible link between Asian fetish and pedophilia, and an explanation for the popularity of the Phillipines as a sex tourism destination. --Wzhao553 04:38, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I buy that theory. First of all, Asian women are often stereotyped as having small breasts and less than voluptuous figures. How does that make them more physically attractive? Secondly Asian Fetishm can encompass more than just physical attraction. It can be a combination of perceived physical and cultural attributes that create it. Also, not all Asian women fit into those stereotypes yet they are still the object of this fetishm. There are plenty of tall, large Asian women out there who are outspoken and hardly submissive. Yet oftentimes they are still perceived in stereotypical ways so I don't think this theory is sufficient explanation nor do I think it belongs in the article. OneViewHere 18:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing to buy because this is one man's crackpot theory. The anonymous user who added it clearly has no understanding of anthropology, pedomorphism, or Ahley Montagu. It takes only a basic amount of research and a check of the website he linked to to see this. What scientist could still have a career after claiming that Asians are mentally more like children than white people?

Also he is the user responsible for the lengthy and profoundly stupid edit war regarding the virago article, ending in the deletion of that article which he appears to regard as an accomplishment. Based on comments he left on my talk page I assume he intends to get this article deleted as well.--ThreeAnswers 21:27, 13 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yowza, you're right. I just looked at your talk page and this "virago" user admits on your talk page that his ultimate purpose is the "deletion of this leftist article". Since he admitted this, any and all edits he makes to this article can safely be assumed to be made with malicious intentions. From now on, if I see this user making any edits I'm going to revert them.OneViewHere 02:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it looks like he's most persistent on the German discussion page of virago. Wow... so that comment was added by a real live Nazi? Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Virago_2#.5B.5BVirago.5D.5D: "I started to learn Russian due to be a prisoner of war in the Second World War where I lost 2 fingers in the battle of Stalingrad as a lieutenant." Wow... anyway... --Wzhao553 05:14, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What? Not his head? Awww, shucks.

Once again in easy English: there are more masculine and more feminine races (e.g. Knußmann- manual 1996);Asian Palaemongolids are the most pedomorphous :Martin-Saller-Knußmann manual since 1914, setting the world standard ,John Randal Baker , "Race",Oxford University Press 1974, for racial pedomorphosis including brain morphology of the Mongoliform Sanids, Egon Freiherr v. Eickstedt Rassenkunde 1934 etc. , all the major works, take what you want, I am preparing a comprehensive bibliography for the Mongolids' racial pedomorphosis comprising several hundreds of titles then you have thousands of pages to read only dealing with the Mongolids' racial pedomorphosis .That these works are not on the net or in controlled bibliographies does niot mean anything. Denying the obvious is ridiculous. Masculine men are attracted to feminine women, feminine men are attracted to masculine women (Knußmann manual, e.g. www.femininebeauty.info.com):The homosexual dominance in the model business e.g. additionally supported the virago ideal being the ideal in general in the West now having malign consequences. Asian Mongolid women in contrast are the most feminine because there is a scale from hard to weak or from feminine-pedomorphous to masculine concerning the facial features which are the most important:the most extreme viragos looking nearly like men are unattracive to masculine Nordids , but the most extreme Asian women with small breasts are 1000 times more appealing to masculine Nordids and vice versa. The indeed existing racial schedule that members of one race favour the looks of his kin is secondary. The future will show that femininity - masculinity is the key in marriage and its balance of power. One even has to say it is a universal important law of history , too.This is the dilemma of the White suprematists nitwits who have the deadly ideal of the Nordid women.Deadly because these viragos are unappropriate to them , Europe will perish , Asia will live. But why on earth did nature do these things ? Because nature is only interested in the survival of the race /species , not in harmonious masculine men - feminine women relationships. In a historic context one has to state that Europe failed because Hitler didn't develop the atomic bomb and the masculine racial virago character of Nordid/Europid women making them extremely prone to the feminist biolgical suicide. I have seen the European tragedy for more than 70 years now with my own eyes.Please don't call me Nazi as I have never been a party member or had affiliation to the regime's racism, a racism which I criticized in 1938 in a personal 48 pages-long sophisticated letter to Heinrich Himmler who was like me very much interested in Asian affairs and peoples.Maybe you know his enthusiasm for Shamballah , a mysterious legendary ancient kingdom in Asia. Probably partly due to my belonging to the Prussian aristocracy with exceptional merits for German science for centuries, obviously partly due to my exceptional knowledge he wrote a acknowledging 10 pages letter back to me. These letters have never been published, but will be. I informed Himmler about the inconsistencies of the National Socialist racialist worldview concerning the Jewish people and the Asians in particular. I think n o other anthropologist or man has dared this in such a direct and scientifically elaborate way during this terror regime.I consider this a maximum effort of a single person in opposing the holocaust others would have been probably killed for, but not me. I can clearly prove that Himmler used four historic details which he only could have got to know through this letter in later writings. When I wrote my nearly deadly letter to Himmler, the Allies did appeasement and later on , they let Auschwitz happen. As I have said before I dislike Hitler,I dislike Himmler, I dislike Egon von Eickstedt , I dislike Kevin MacDonald, I dislike Richard Lynn, I dislike Jean Philippe Rushton and especially David Irving, the idiot.They are no philanthropists.But their works are essentially right (except Irving, the idiot)and partly even unique despite of their faults.And what unique new scientific knowledge could you get from me if you only would listen without prejudice. Yes, you can flush everything down the data toilet, but could you wait a bit and think about it properly. Have you ever wondered why there are no German geniuses after 1950 but hundreds before due to their talent and genes as even Steven Jay Gould admits ? Because what they write or do is flushed down the toilet after World War II being an incredible loss to science.The secret of the universe has been detected by a German genius. Thomas Balwin and "Oxford Bede Rundle"have not detected it. A German man I know personally know has discovered it. Is it arrogant to say that I know someone who is not known to the public having the genius of Aristotle ? Do you want to know why there is something rather than nothing , the most difficult question in the world? You certainly will not hear it from someone else in your lifetime , because a l l others since 1000 B. C. could not cope with the dilemma of the "prima causa" and the "nihil privativum". You want really to know t h e secret of the world American scientists are drooling after ?Incredible stuff ? Why do you know ?

We don't care about the past 100 years of anthropology or about your political affiliations. None of us here are anthropologists. If you can somehow justify why pedomorphous women are more femininine than non-pedomorphous women, then by all means, feel free to do so. You have given absolutely no explanation of the alleged relationship between pedomorphosis and femininity, without telling us to look up some obscure German sources that I at least do not have access to. --Wzhao553 23:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, Martin-Saller-Knußmann is available in all major American libraries (www.worldcatlibraries.org).There are the crucial statements e.g. in the 1996 edition that there are more masculine and more feminine (Palaemongolids ) races.If you don't understand German start with Baker on racial pedomorphosis of the Mongoliform Sanids whose pedomorphosis is due to their Mongoliformness because their are a distinct group from the Negrids.Baker chose them because of their Mongoliformness, pedomorphosis and their extreme primitive culture. Recent studies confirm the childlikeness of them who can be diverted easily having a permanent sanguine happiness (see works of e.g. Knußmann pupils). Unfortunately , Boasianism denies these findings due to multiculturalists ideology. But I have some hope that you ,Wzhao 553, will agree to me after reading Baker and some google translation supported German sentences from Martin-Saller-Knußmann, setting the world standard since 1914.There you can find, too , that according to numerous studies masculine men are attracted to feminine women and the line from childlike-feminine humans to masculine humans according to e.g.Max Hartmann's three laws of sexuality. This manual was one of the highest authorities in the English-speaking world, too. I know Canadian professors personally who taught biology according to this handbook complaining that it was marginalized by Jewish Boasian anthropologists.The relative lack of information on the net is due to this marginalization, too. Classical anthropology deciphering Asiaphilia ?

There have been anthropolgical claims since the beginnings of anthropology that the Asian races and especially the Nesid race from the Philippines and Indonesia are the most pedomorphous of the about 40 races, i.e. more childlike both in physique and in character (e.g. stated in the Martin-Saller-Knußmann anthropological manual,setting the world standard since 1914,unparalleled in the Anglo-American world, 4. rev.ed. 1996,Fischer Verlag, Stuttgart).As very masculine men are attracted by very feminine women (cf. Max Hartmann's world-famous and widely accepted three laws of sexuality concerning e.g. the attraction of feminine men by masculine women),this could explain Caucasian men's potential Asiaphilia. Caucasians or Europids have relatively masculine features and are prone to Asiaphilia according to this explanation. It can be assumed that the misandrous feminism in the West and the masculine physical and psychical character of Western viragos will surely fuel Asiaphilia in the foreseeable future.

Regardless of whether this is true or accepted or even available on the internet or not, if it falls within the historical context of the subject we are discussing at hand, and if it was once considered a legitimate line of research that had its share of adherents, then we can include the pertinent material in a historical context, so long as we avoid discussing the truth or falsity of the sources, and so long as we also include a thorough Boasian counterargument after it, in order to maintain a neutral point of view.

J. R. Baker. (1974) Race.
M. Hartmann (1956) Die Sexualität
R. Knußmann. (1996) Vergleichende Biologie des Menschen.In it also about the blocking of aggression by feminine (Asian) women and their extreme stimulation of male provisioning ("small children pattern",Konrad Lorenz).As Asians start to dominate the world (e.g. Harvard), the genetically intelligent European -Asian couples (mean IQ 100) will maybe produce the coming elite (e.g.in Thailand 50% of the showbusiness people are Eurasians) with their unique genetic and cultural heritage.
R. Martin and K. Saller. (1956) Lehrbuch der Anthropologie in systematischer Darstellung mit besonderer Berucksichtigung der anthropologischen Methoden.
A. Montagu (1989) Growing Young

Thank you, Wzhao553.Correct.Additionally, "goldsea.com" for Asian female beauty superior to European women, "www.femininebeauty.info" for racial masculinity of Western virago idols and their affiliation to homosexual men

If these citations are correct, then please let me know. I see that Montagu makes the claim that "Mongoloid women accordingly tend to be more paedomorphic than women of other groups... One result of this is the high frequency of beauty among mongoloid males and females, a beauty of great delicacy." Since this is a published source, then we should not shy away from citing it just because we strongly disagree with it personally. At any rate, it'll take me some time to go and track down all the sources, especially the German ones. --Wzhao553 19:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted your changes. You shouldn't be adding entire sections that nobody understands or without a consensus from the contributers. So far it looks like you're the ONLY one who believes in this. The main flaw I find in your claims is that you are defining masculinity in WESTERN terms. There are different standards for masculinity and femininity all over the world, so for one anthopologist to claim that an entire race of people are "childlike and feminine" is the ultimate in cultural arrogance. In addition to this, you have already admitted to us that your ultimate goal is the deletion of this article. As such, any and all changes you make to this article will be considered malicious in nature and I will revert any change you make. If you think you can wear us down by persistantly changing the article to suit your personal agenda, then I will escalate this issue to the Wikipedia admins. OneViewHere 20:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is me being a German professor of anthropology who introduced this.And I want to thank Wzhao533 again that he supports my valuable contributions. He wrote down the latest editions of the works I mean correctly. So please stop to label my contribution "vandalism". "Vandals" are people who destroy, and not ones contributing valuable material. Remember that my four valuable contributions to the article "anthropology" made it the unbiased first-class article that it is now.

Your additions are ridiculous because you can't even arrive at a single definition of "masculinity" or "Femininity" in the western world. The "research" you cited smacks of the same kind of biased anthopology that the authors of "The Bell Curve" sought to promote. You have already admitted that your ultimate goal was to get this article deleted. Claiming that Asian peoples are more childlike in mentality and physique is the worst sort of cultural arrogance disguised as science.OneViewHere 06:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Race and womanhood

The at least 3500 years old concept of the anthropological virago is notoriously ignored by due to leftist political reasons obviously. From the masculine "salzikrum" women in the Babylonian Codex Hammurapi (1700 B.C.(!))up to Knußmann's "Lehrbuch der vergleichenden Anthropologie und Humangenetik" (1996)it has been an important concept as written above. An anthropological virago is a woman with both a physical and psychical masculine disposition (cf. Martin-Saller-Knußmann manual, 1996,the only recent manual for biological anthropology).The about 40 human races are more or less masculine (cf. cited manual). The feminine Mongolids (especially the Nesid race of Indonesia and the Philippines) and the masculine Europids (especially Nordid race) are the extremes. The high percentage of viragines in the West has been a critical factor for the success of feminists movements.It is doubtful whether feminism would have ever developed outside the West where it is nearly invisible because there is no orthogenesis (cf.wikipedia article "orthogenesis").It has been suggested by J.Ph. Rushton and others that Negrids have less pedomorphous traits being more masculine than e.g. Europids. This view is in contrast to Count de Gobineau's view of Negrids as a feminine race. In spite of several characteristics of the Negrids which can be classified as masculine (e.g. widespread athleticism due to selection for physical combat fitness, masculine skull traits), there are others which are clearly feminine (energetically lower choleric character in contrast to energetically higher melancholic character; this extraversion makes Negrids statistically more unfit for intellectual work in comparison to introverts (cf. cited manual for the extroverts' failing in intellectual occupation).Additionally, there is a lower Negrid average IQ of 70 (cf.Richard Lynn, "IQ and the Wealth of Nations").

Response to One(leftist)ViewHere: The worst sort of leftist fashism is to destroy the West as described by Kevin MacDonald.This is your leftist masterpiece of the 20th and the 21th century!You can be proud of it. No normal East Asian and no normal Chinese would doubt the peculiarities of the Chinese Sinid Han race e.g.The page "Goldsea.com"is written by Asians, they are proud of the superior feminine racial traits of their women.Watch it!Wake up!The highest anthropological authorities claimed it!I gave you enough information to verify the correctness of it all(Martin-Saller-Knußmann, John Randal Baker, Freiherr Egon v. Eickstedt,Ashley-Montagu(even this Jewish Boasian) and hundred else .Learn German and get rid of your false destructive leftist bias! You can manipulate the world, but not the truth!Give up!

What is the title of the Martin-Saller-Knußman manual? We need a name. Also, there should be no problem with citing Knußman's Lehrbuch in the article, since it is very pertinent, but we do need to point out that there are numerous academics who consider it racist, e.g., [1] among many others. --Wzhao553 07:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Vergleichende Biologie des Menschen: Lehrbuch der Anthropologie und Humangenetik,1996,Gustav-Fischer-Verlag,Stuttgart." Please don't take Mr. Osborne's (a musician !)criticism page as he is an anthropological lay and cites from different books from Knußmann.The quote about frustration and pelvis width cannot be found in this manual !and doesn't recognize that Knußmann hasn't created new "evil" knowledge, but has analyzed the recent literature and again has drawn the same conclusion as Rudolf Martin and Karl Saller setting the world standard since 1914.

Okay, I have finally been able to find something on Max Hartmann's theory of sexuality, in the form of a book review of a biography of the biologist, located here: [2]. Of course, it would be ideal if I could obtain the book myself, but nonetheless, it does not seem that Hartmann's laws of sexuality apply directly to humans. So I must ask, what exactly are the three laws of sexuality, and how do they apply to humans? And if it's the case that Hartmann did not intend his laws to apply to humans, then who was the first to do so? --Wzhao553 02:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hartmann has been explicitly applied to humans, too (see Knußmann 1996). 1.law: there are two sexes (bipolarity) 2.law: there is a continuum between the two sexes 3.law: every individual human has a special (e.g.hormone induced) position on this continuum Statistically "feminity" seeks "masculinity" to mate, less masculine men seek less feminine women (viragos).The male instinct is to intrude the female, the female one is to be intruded; the more e.g. masculine a woman is (including racial feminity-pedomorphosis) the less she is feeling pleasure to be intruded or dominated by a male (e.g. statistically less heterosexual Nordid Western viragos supporting feminism as an ideology of virago masculinization).

Okay, I have done a complete rewrite of the section. It's a very rough draft and so I haven't even polished up the citation format or anything. We'll have to see if my understanding is correct and get feedback from other members. (I am not a biologist or anthropologist!) Then we can add some basic criticisms of the view to maintain neutral point of view. --Wzhao553 13:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, this is the German anthropology professor.Wzhao553,I did some minor corrections so that the section is now 100% scientifically correct. Now we should eliminate the bias presenting the European partners as "sickos" in this leftist propaganda article.

I've restored the deleted section from "Alleged social consequences". It is generally bad form, especially in a controversial article, to delete anything without providing good reason. In this case that would require producing one or more scholarly articles which demonstrate that mixed Asian-white relationships are more likely to be unhealthy.

In general I would like to say that I am very concerned that this article is ballooning with even more information that truly belongs in a separate article.--ThreeAnswers 19:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC).[reply]

No, you have only general unsupported stuff.You have the burden to prove it. I deleted it, because the whole anthropology section shows scientifically clearly that it is anti-interracial propaganda.The gettoization of unloved information to new articles is no solution.There are articles which are much longer, your wish to gettoize unloved information is a matter of taste, but not necessary.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.138.181.226 (talk • contribs) 20:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've made some more changes to streamline the rhetoric, trying my best to simplify but not alter the underlying meaning. In general I would agree with you, however, I believe that once we replace the uncited information with cited material, we can then begin removing all the irrelevant and anecdotal information from the article, only keeping what is most important. --Wzhao553 20:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And I will produce some scholarly and anthropological well-supported articles by the highest authorities that this is leftist.One could label you a Nazi because you state that a majority of those interracial couples have sick relationships while anthropology and sociology says the contrary. As the West does not use eugenics the southeastern women are e.g. much less genetically sick and neurotic as Western viragos not to say anything about their masculine leftist feminist terror.Have a short look at the polemic, but essentially right page www.nomarriage.com.The Western viragos are the "sickos".For you, the modern "Jews" are the interracial couples.You perpetuate the "yellow peril" panic.You are nothing but a modern Dr. Mengele which I had the unwanted "honour" to meet during my time in the Ahnenerbe.This was a statement by the German anthropology professor.80.138.189.79 12:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

AsianGuy.com and ModelMinority.com vanity vehicle?

Strong POV in this article and apparently very much a vehicle for disseminating the POV missions of AsianGuy.com and ModelMinority.com. Does this article really feel encyclopedic to anyone here? Strange. --AStanhope 04:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When I read it it seems like someone writing a school report for Asian-American Studies 101 rather than an encyclopedia article, and trying to cram in as much as possible. But this does point up the need for an Asian American contemporary issues article.--ThreeAnswers 04:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ashley Montagu obviously means Mongoloid in the Eickstedtian sense which is the most precise: Mongolid : Asian races; Mongoloid : similar to the Asian races ; Mongoliform : having some characteristic traits of the Asian races

Sexuality and stereotypes

Yes, it is true that there is a lot of superfluous and unverified information in this article that does not make it encyclopedic. The Model Minority and Yellow Peril sections don't actually have anything to do with Asian fetish, except in the broader context of both being Asian American related issues. The negative stereotypes section is loosely associated with Asian fetish, in the sense that (negative) sexual stereotypes may be considered the alleged source of fetishism, but the section itself does not implicitly state this. Plus, while the Platonist division of stereotypes into physical, emotional and cultural levels seemed very cute at the time, I was really just making up stuff then, and I think that after several protracted edit wars, the Negative stereotypes section really serves no purpose anymore.

In my personal informed opinion, the best way to fix this is to remove the yellow peril and model minority sections, and then merge the Asian American manhood and Physical stereotypes section into a subsection, which, along with the Asian American womanhood subsection, would belong under a section entitled Sexuality and stereotypes. The Yellow peril and Model Minority stereotypes would then be mentioned in passing in the introduction to this section, which would then move on to the stereotypes that are of importance to Asian fetish.

ThreeAnswers, let me know what you think of this. I'll go ahead and make the changes if other people agree. --Wzhao553 04:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me. --AStanhope 05:23, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds great. I would probably go further and trim the Sexuality and stereotypes section further by condensing the arguments to their theoretical points rather than having them spend a lot of space trying to refute the stereotypes. It's enough to put it in a few paragraphs that the stereotypes exist, are very controversial, and how they allegedly contribute to fetishism. More than that, I feel, really goes beyond the appropriate scope of the article and also makes for confusing clutter that obscures what it is really about.--ThreeAnswers 05:31, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the first round of revisions, and condensed whatever I thought possible. I've also moved the references up to the section. I'd rather not combine references to different sections as they're coming into place, since that will easily lead to confusion.

I think we're making good progress on this. It's now a matter of supplementing the material here with some additional sources. --Wzhao553 15:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After making the changes, it seems that the Sexuality section deals with the effects of media better than the Effects of media section, which serves no real purpose. I'm also going to change the titles of some of the later sections into titles that are more meaningful. --Wzhao553 00:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If I were writing this article from scratch, it would have come out something like this --

Introduction and brief overview
Historical and contemporary social contexts
- The Yellow Peril
- Contemporary media portrayal
Controversy
See also
Sources
External links

That's a bit rough but I think you can see what I'm getting at. "The Yellow Peril" would discuss changing perceptions of Asian-Americans through history and mention that even the term 'Asian-American' itself is of recent vintage. "Contemporary media portrayal" would be the place to talk about stereotypes and the disparity in portrayals of AM/WF and WM/AF. In "Controversy" I would discuss accusation of reverse racism and double standards.--ThreeAnswers 01:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my experience, contemporary medial portrayals are usually presented in two sections, one for AF and one for AM. This avoids some potentially confusing back-and-forth between reference points. That's probably the best way to deal with it. I can't see why an entire section on Yellow peril would help, though. For one, it would necessarily reduplicate information in the yellow peril entry itself. Secondly, it doesn't actually have anything to do with stereotypes of AF's -- there weren't any AF's around to be stereotyped at the time. Yellow peril simply states that Asian men are a threat to white men economically and white women sexually.

According to the postcolonialists, the correct place to find the historical context of Asian fetish is in the consumer culture of 19th century Romantic Orientalism. The basic idea is that the Asian woman is objectified as a commodity, and then consumed as a sexual object. Hence, the "Asian" in Asian fetish comes from the Orientalist perception of the reified Orient, and the "fetish" comes from the Marxist idea of a commodity fetish in consumer culture.

With that in mind, the section that discusses that will probably be the last one that we should work on, given how complicated the literature is. Just read the first page of Homi Bhabha's profoundly influential postcolonial work The Location of Culture to see! [3] So we should probably work on the Stereotypes and Criticisms sections for now. --Wzhao553 05:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The fetish of Asian women as little petite submissive cuties (" Nadeshiko Yamato" article should be created for the term for the submissive Asian (Japanese)woman ideal ) has its basic origin in their anthropological feminine traits. In contrast to that it is not possible feature Nordic virago valkyries as little petite submissive cuties.

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