Talk:2007–2008 financial crisis

Has this ended?

I think the title "Financial crisis of 2007–2010" clearly implies that this has ended. But I see no indication in this document that it has ended, or more importantly, how that was determined. I would suggest "2007-present", but I believe there is a policy against using the word "present" at all. So unless there is objection, I will plan to change the title to "Financial crisis beginning 2007". Darxus (talk) 15:58, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed that this was recently discussed and resulted in changing the title from "2009" to "2010". This is still very misleading. I saw the title and thought "Did it end? How was that determined?" Darxus (talk) 16:02, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Darxus, I was going to suggest same thing and then noticed it had been done already time and time again.--JosephMifsud (talk) 20:03, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I changed it. Viriditas changed it back, stating "Financial crisis beginning 2007, is not standard or recommended." on my talk page. Where is the standard? WP:MOS#Longer_periods does not appear to include it. Darxus (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

That's hardly a consensus considering JosephMifsud's account was created to "agree" with Darxus.[1] In any case, the current title is accurate and does not imply that anything has ended since 2010 is a new year. Financial crisis beginning 2007 is unprecedented. We don't have open-ended article titles. Viriditas (talk) 22:39, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I did not claim consensus (or create the JosephMifsud account). I asked where the standard is. Where is the standard? Darxus (talk) 23:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Range_of_years_which_has_not_ended Darxus (talk) 03:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Some people believe that the "Great Recession" has already ended due to GDP stats and the like. How come there is no reference in this article to show this? Several economists have said that since June 2009, it's already started to "look up" a bit. ★Dasani★ 01:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Please be respectful of other peoples opinion, just because you think so doesn't mean I believe so. South Bay (talk) 01:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not being disrespectful to you at all. I've not inserted my personal opinion to this page. Just sayin' that some economists think it's over already. Why is this not stated in the current article? Wikipedia seeks to provide a fair, unbiased sort of community that represents no specific point of view whatsoever, while managing to cover all aspects of the issue at hand. Don't take it so personally. ★Dasani★ 07:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I think this should be renamed to "Financial crisis of 2007– ", very much like the "1960 Bar" on the Vietnam Campaign Medal. Unless and until either this administration or the business leaders in the United States can figure out how to get un- and under-employment combined down under 5%, the recession lives on. Lowellt (talk) 19:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Calling an end to "crisis"

• I am not going to weigh in on whether the recession is over, however I would suggest that a very clear deliniation be made between the ongoing Late-2000s recession and the Financial crisis that precipitated the recession. It is becoming increasingly clear that the financial crisis ended in 2009 when large bank failures came to an end, liquidity returned to the markets and the asset prices began to return to pre-crisis levels. The recession, however is ongoing. Almost by definition, I don't think you can have a 3-year long "crisis". When most politicians or reporters refer to the "worst financial crisis since the great depression" it is now used in a past tense. I think dating the end of the crisis phase to 2009 is appropriate. |► ϋrбanяeneωaℓ • TALK ◄| 16:14, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't know why the article was moved to Financial crisis of 2007–2010. Coz the economic data show that all major countries, including US, Japan, EU , Russia, China and India are out of the recession. Yes, I admit the economy is still very terrible, but that is just what we "feel", the economic data should be the most authoritative. Currently there's no obvious economy growth doesn't mean it's still in the crisis or recession--1j1z2 (talk) 07:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it is almost certain that the financial crisis is over, but it would be nice if we could can get some reliable sources that state that as well. Does anyone have links to any newspapers, financial blogs or magazine articles that have stated that the crisis is over? LK (talk) 10:41, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

A quick google search brings up some articles that state that the financial crisis is over. If a kind soul could mine the search results and add it as appropriate to the article? Thanks, LK (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, as has sometimes been said, it's not over until it is over. There's still a lot of trouble in the financial system, and it still could fold up at any moment. It's best not to give the impression that it ended last year when it might have not, although it would be good to state that many believe that it is presently over. --Patricius Augustus (talk) 16:46, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

• If there is another financial crisis in 2010 or 2011 wouldn't it make sense to have a separate article, distinct from this one relating to that crisis? I think it is pretty clear that the crisis is ended. If we have another crisis - it is not a big deal at that point to reconsider naming but at this point there is no reason to wait around for another crisis to decide on the name of this article. |► ϋrбanяeneωaℓ • TALK ◄| 16:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

• If there were a crisis this year, and if it is clear that it would be a continuation of the crisis we're talking about, then it would make sense to include it in this article, since it would be clearly an expression of the "2007-2009" crisis, and not a new crisis. This could happen, let's say, if the government prop-ups for the failed banks end up folding, and the banks fail. The crisis is not over in reality (or beneath the surface, if you will), it has just been masked and cushioned with a lot of bailouts and inflated money. There are also a lot of smaller, non-TARPed banks still failing, and this provides a window into what would have happened if the banks had not been bailed out. And in response to your point about waiting until another crisis, I do not advocate waiting until another crisis, I advocate until the crisis can be said to be over fundamentally, without inflation or bailouts or government support. It is at this point I would be on your side, and declare the crisis over. --Patricius Augustus (talk) 12:20, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

• The reasoning on calling the bounds of a biz cycle are fairly clear. Capitalist Accumulation assumes an ever increasing arc but one punctuated by these crises which are generally crises in Capitalism and not crises of Capitalism. The exception is the great Bear Market which was a Crisis (Marxian) and all other crises are measured against it. When the secular trend of equity share prices has a continually positive second derivative over sufficiently large subintervals after passing the low of the cycle and with an overall duration of the downturn comparable to the reference epochal and other cycles, then the crisis is considered over. The overall process can be based against a curve underlying the low points of the overall historical share price curve since 1929 (the implicit monotonically increasing secular arc of accumulation). 72.228.177.92 (talk) 18:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The Great Depression had two separate and distinct collapses, with a period of quasi-recovery in between. Does anyone here suggest that, because of that period in between, it be separated into two separate articles? With the benefit of hindsight and just a little historical perspective, we might be able to set end points for the current situation, dividing as necessary. Here and now, the citable sources are far too divided on everything except that GDP rose (barely) -- and not everyone agrees on that as a valid definition in any case. (It might have been more generally acceptable among experts - as it had been, before - were we not where we are now.) - Tenebris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.29.99 (talk) 08:02, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Regulatory proposals

This section begins with Obama's proposals from June 2009, but does not include the more recent 'Volcker rule" proposals to restrict proprietary trading and other activities. Unless I there is a consensus against this, I will add that information to this section.Nwlaw63 (talk) 21:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

This section seems seriously out of date, given the financial reform proposal being taken up by congress. Barring any serious objections, I'll try to get to this later this week and add some material about the proposed legislation. Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:31, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

As financial reform legislation gets finalized in the U.S. Senate over the next week or so, we should prepare a summary of what gets passed for the Regulatory proposals section. Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:54, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Within the next day I'll add something here on the passing of the bill - I figure a few quotes will be very useful here - maybe one from those satisfied, one from those opposing, and one from those saying it didn't go far enough. Nwlaw63 (talk) 19:58, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Added before or around Section 1.2

Somewhere in this whole discussion though there needs to be mention of the United States Legislature rejecting the option to make Mortgage Insurance (MI) tax deductible in the Late 1990’s as a possible/probable cause of the Crisis. The decision not to allow this deduction based on the “cost” in tax payer dollars is a major contributing factor to the Crisis. There is some date in there where they defeated a bill that would have moved MI to tax deductible and then did so in subsequent sessions as well until I believe 2008 when they now will allow it for a short time? The lack of a tax deduction paved the way for the infamous 80/10/10 mortgage because now you could get a mortgage with a blended interest rate that would have a payment less than a standard 90% Loan to Value (LTV) mortgage with Mortgage Insurance and the added interest would be tax deductible. This in turn provides the statistical basis for the 80/15/5 and finally by around 2002 the 80/20. Followed by the easing of credit requirements even on the 80/20’s until you could get an 80/20 No Income No Asset loan on a Non-Owner Occupied property that started to be available in late 2004 and early 2005. All in the name of the “tax benefit” and without regard on a loan by loan basis as to whether that the Loan would be repaid. The Mortgage Insurance industry began to run from even providing contract underwriting for these questionable products around late 2005 due to the perceived risk of even doing the underwriting on them and especially since they were not insuring them. Thus we lost the checks and balances system that had been in place since the 80’s with structured oversight in what was being offered in the mortgage arena for risky loans that were over 80% LTV.

Hopefully someone with a better grasp on how to write something worthy of Wikipedia could address this issue in a way that would make sense. Specturm (talk) 23:04, 3 February 2010 (UTC) Specturm

Unlikely. Many places around the world where even mortgage payments are not tax-deductible, even just on the other side of the 49th parallel, escaped the greater part of the collapse. Discussion of the financial vehicles themselves, independent of the tax question, is already in the article. - Tenebris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.180 (talk) 00:29, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Crisis to Crises

Although all the financial crises taking place around this time started around the same period, not all were stemming form the same cause, and they took place in multiple countries. Therefore I suggest the page's title be changed to "Financial crises of 2007-2010" Whalen207 (talk) 04:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You are most likely right, but I think the whole event has rolled into one in the press and public consciousness and is commonly referred to as a single crisis. Wikipeterproject (talk) 07:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

There is a also a preference in the Wikipedia MOS for article titles to be in the singular. LK (talk) 05:27, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that would apply in this type of situation; see for instance September 11, 2001 attacks. Tisane (talk) 05:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Economy

I would be interested in seeing a paragraph tieing in these recent recessioary years with the economic downturn of mid-2001, if someone deems it a relevant point.76.28.99.174 (talk) 17:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Financial crisis of 2007-present

Why not rename it to Financial crisis of 2007-present? That way, we don't have to keep renaming it every year that this thing drags on. Having an ending year makes it sound as though it's over. Tisane (talk) 02:16, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Concur. I would also recommend "Current financial crisis", and mention in the first paragraph that it has yet to have an "official" name. I know it lacks a degree of neutrality, but there are no good options; it could last another month or another decade. We also need a few bots doing cleanup. I just found this page through a link to "Global financial crisis of 2008-2009" (on the page Universal Studios Dubailand). There are currently around 30 pages redirecting to that version of the name. If the two dozen or so other possible redirects have similar numbers, there could be 1000 pages linking to alternate titles. samwaltz (talk) 16:26, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I also concur. We might even consider using the more broad "economic crisis of 2007-present", so as not to limit it to just the financials, as the the auto industry and energy industry are major parts of the overall scope.

Can we get a vote on this? --JohnDoe0007 (talk) 13:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

The recession may or may not be over, but the financial crisis is over. Numerous sources attest to this. See this, this, this and this for example. Does anyone object to changing it back to 2007-2009? If so, can we have some sources please? Thanks LK (talk) 10:22, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Given the recent news and new indictments against Goldman Sachs, and the fact that the U.S. Congress has not yet passed any regulation that would address the failures that led to the crisis, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the crisis is ongoing. Just one opinion. Robert K S (talk) 17:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Last week[2] a member of the European Central Bank stated that "We may already have entered into the next phase of the crisis: a sovereign debt crisis following on the financial and economic crisis." Mporter (talk) 06:17, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I would be fine if we just renamed it the "World Financial Crisis". Once the dust settles, we can move it to a name with more 'historical' recognition. But in contemporary times the most appropriate name for it is just the "Global Financial Crisis" of the "World Financial Crisis". Can't think of any other events in history that bear a similar name. Colipon+(Talk) 01:50, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I would name it "2007", without a definite ending year, because there may or may not be one, now or ever. The crisis will be resolved slowly, and moving forward not backward, so there will be no point where one can say "everything is how it was before the crisis started, the crisis is now over". This is also similar to how publications are dated, only the first year. Rav0 (talk) 15:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Financial crisis = recession?

Are the financial crisis and the recession one and the same? Because it sure feels like we're still in a recession. Tisane (talk) 05:08, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Article Duplication?

Could someone please explain to me the difference between Financial crisis of 2007–2010 and Late-2000s recession? They seem to be duplicated articles to a large extent. 75.154.95.21 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:57, 19 April 2010 (UTC).

I agree that there is a great deal of overlap here. Some serious work would obviously be required to combine them. However, I'm not sure you can make much of an argument for having both articles. Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:29, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Effects on the working class?

Seems like all this article focuses on is the institutions with little or no mention of the dire effects this has had on the general population. Why is that?

Well, the sections on global and U.S. impact could certainly be expanded with more detailed unemployment figures or real wage figures, including number of people who dropped out of the workforce, etc. Nwlaw63 (talk) 00:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Establishing Chronology of events

The entire article covers only the causes and effects of the crisis. I personally think that adding the actual chronology of important events regarding the crisis would be relevant, at least starting from the collapse of the Lehman Brothers, if not Northern Rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.161.205 (talk) 19:48, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

There is a separate article called subprime crisis impact timeline that has the timeline.Farcaster (talk) 20:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Advertising recession

The financial crisis has been cited as the cause for the advertising recession that has hit all media, and, at least in the US, has even been helping to kill off members of weaker sectors like newspapers, magazines and television soap operas; and has been straining network television, which relies almost entirely on advertising to fund its big-budget scripted programming (hence more of cheaper reality programming, an experiment with NBC eliminating 10 pm dramas for Leno, etc.). I think this deserves its own section if not its own article. 72.244.206.31 (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

World map of GDP growth rates

I posted this on the talk page for the image but I'll post it here too. The map of world GDP growth rates shows Botswana's economy collapsing with Zimbabwe's economy slightly rising. I'm no economist but I do read the news; isn't Botswana the one with the relatively thriving economy while Zimbabwe is the one with the collapsing economy?

Right now Botswana is the country in southern Africa that is dark brown (i.e. decreased 8-10%) while Zimbabwe, to its immediate northeast, is green.